Slashdot Mirror
Seattle Bookstores Embrace Amazon.com
An anonymous reader writes "Even though many independent bookstores around the country blame their closing on competition from Amazon.com, bookstores in Seattle are booming thanks to Amazon's growth. It turns out many of the thousands of new workers at their downtown headquarters are avid readers who prefer shopping at the local stores. '"A lot of our customers work at Amazon," said Tracy Taylor, the general manager at the Elliott Bay Book Company, one of the city's largest independent booksellers. The store, about a mile from Amazon headquarters, last year earned what Ms. Taylor called the "first substantial profit" in almost 20 years, enough to even pay employee bonuses.'"
Amazon does have tons of books I might not find otherwise, but I still love just wandering around in a bookstore for hours, just browsing. I've found a number of great books that way, that I likely never would have seen just searching a website.
Forgive me if my first cynical thought is, how has the employer's bonus been doing before this?
I far prefer an online shop. The difference between 'it's on the shelf there' and 'we can order it quickly enough to deliver it to you on time' is not something I care about. Wide selection is. Supposedly I am their target demographic.
Unfortunately Amazon as a company is pure evil, and every penny given to them is potentially a penny in the fund for lawyers to subvert our system. I never gave them a penny and, barring rather unlikely and shocking events, I never will be.
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Whether it's Amazon or not is irrelevant. In any large company, there's going to be a percentage who like the dead tree copies of the book. Got to a restaurant when the staff are on a break, you'll find some folks eating Mackers/KFC/their own sandwiches.
Where you work doesn't dictate where you shop.
"The greatest lesson in life is to know that even fools are right sometimes" - Winston Churchill
I tend to browse the local library rather than the bookstore. My local library even
has a coffee shop inside now. So I can browse at the library and if I decide I later
want to own the book, I buy it at amazon. I tend to only use the local bookstore
anymore for buying gifts.
give nice people who are not currently skilled enough to justify $15/hr a chance.
Except that you don't. Admit it: you wouldn't hire a homeless bum. You just want to pay the "nice people" who are currently skilled enough wages so low they can't afford housing, then fire them when they end up homeless, just so you can tell them to their faces it's their fault for making poor decisions (yeah, like working for you).
Although not in Seattle, from what I can see most people who do not shop from Amazon shop at Powell's. I guess they think Powell's is cooler. But here is the rub. I often order books through Amazon from other book dealers. Amazon gives these bookstores the online infrastructure and allows them to reach an audience outside of the neighborhood, and an Audience, that, like me, hasn't spent hours in a bookstore going through books, at least has not done so in a decade or so. I read the reviews, and but the books. So it is good that the Amazon sweat shop pays enough so people can buy books and helps the economy in this way. I am sure it helps the economy in other ways. That does not mean that bookstores have any long term potential. it simply has to do with stock. New stock is too expensive as publishers have always punished the independent bookstore with higher prices. Used stock is going to become increasingly hard to come by.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
Amazon only is profitable by lying claiming the people in Amazon warehouses filling Amazon orders in all those Amazon boxes aren't amazon employees.
I'm genuinely curious. If they're doing the whole "Hire Contractors to dodge taxes" thing that really only works for a few of the most undesirable jobs (auto part runners come to mind) where they can take advantage of ex cons. For anything else sooner or later the IRS notices and drops the hammer.
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I'm a voracious reader and used to buy from bookstores on a weekly basis. Over the last few years I switched almost entirely to getting books online, and of late, more and more, that means buying them on amazon. The reason for the shift has primarily been availability of the books I want to read in stores. Now I understand that there are millions of books out there with thousands more getting added everyday, so decentralized bookstores are inherently at a huge disadvantage to centralized means like amazon. The amount of unproductive working capital tied up in store inventory will ensure this, leave alone rent, staff and utilities of a brick and mortar establishment.
But, assuming many other people have a similar story, what continues to surprise me is how little or how poorly bookstores seem to have adapted to this. If I were a bookstore owner I would try one of these things, none of which I have seen evidence of any bookstores here trying in a meaningful or impactful way:
1. Aggressively analyze traffic and tweak the assortment continuously
2. Track what I read, suggest books, inform me when they get related stuff in-store
3. If they don't have a book I want, promise to send it home the next day or later the same day
4. Reward my loyalty and value to them meaningfully. By that I mean that if I'm the kind of guy who buys regularly and from a predictable set then invest a significant portion of their margins on my purchases back into growing their relationship with me
5. Start 'membership programs' that help me get control over my spend on books
6. Make bookstores a really pleasant place for me and my family to spend time in
8. Support the physical book ecosystem.. start a program to take back books and free up precious shelf space in my home
9. Specialize.. trying to keep all the books relevant to everyone is a recipe for disaster imho, will end up keeping a bare minimum in any area and leave everyone dissatisfied
To folks in the bookstore business and slashdotters in other countries (I'm in India) - Do you feel nearly enough is being done?
Why do you want them on welfare instead?
What do you mean instead? Wal-Mart's HR helps employees sign up for government assistance because they know the paltry amount they pay employees isn't enough to live off of. The only people making $7.25/hr and not on welfare are going to be teenagers who only have the job because their parents wouldn't buy them a car.
If you're looking for the modern "Welfare Queen" that's abusing the system, skip the single moms and look no further than the companies raking in huge profits while not paying a living wage and expecting the government to make up the difference.
Um, you pretty much described EXACTLY what Barnes and Noble tried to do, and it didn't really work out all that well for them(the execution may have left something to be desired but). They aren't doing horrible, all things considered, but they aren't exactly booming either. If they don't have a book you want you can order it on line and have it sent to where you live, they have a loyalty program, they have added cafes and play areas to their stores etc.
It doesn't work largely because it's very difficult for them to compete on price, and the explosion of smart phones in the past half decade means that it's really easy for me to find the same book online, either e-book or dead tree. Before the smartphone explosion they weren't doing terrible in spite of the same disadvantages in terms of price and selection, largely because people did not want to go to a bookstore, note down which books they want then go home connect to the internet and order them. So people were more willing to just buy it there, and maybe grab a coffee at the cafe while they read. However with smartphones it doesn't matter how inviting you make the place, I can still order the same book online and be out of there in less time than it would take to wait in line at the register. It's going to be very difficult for brick and mortar stores to compete in the age of smartphones. Maybe if they could figure out how to adapt 3d printing to books, i.e. if there is a book you want to read in dead tree, you can order it on your phone, go grab a coffee and have a copy waiting for you when you leave. Then maybe the brick-and-mortar places could compete, since they wouldn't have to have nearly as much capital tied up in books, but until then they are doomed.
Monstar L
The last time I tried buying a book from a real book store, was at Borders. I noticed the book I went there for was around 10% more expensive in person than on their own website. I told the sales rep and expected them to match the online price. She said they would not match the price, because in the store you are paying for the convenience of getting the book immediately, versus having to wait a few days. So if I didn't need to the book immediately, to buy it online and wait. So I did buy it online, from Amazon. That was the last time I ever went to a physical book store. About 4 years ago.
Um, you pretty much described EXACTLY what Barnes and Noble tried to do, and it didn't really work out all that well for them(the execution may have left something to be desired but).
Other big-box book retailers haven't succeeded at that, either.
But TFA seems to be talking more about independent bookstores than the "brick-and-mortar" chain bookstores that gave the independent bookstores trouble a while ago.
> Maybe if they could figure out how to adapt 3d printing to books
I must be getting used to idiots on the internet. I almost missed your sarcasm & irony there !
You do realize the sales rep was probably being honest?
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$15/hr is $31K/yr. That's not modest. It's more than double my annual income, and I live alone and own a car. A minimum wage that high is bound to increase unemployment, so why send people into actual poverty by mandating that they must either be living in luxury or unemployed?
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$7.25/hr does not qualify you for welfare unless you have kids, probably several of them. It's not even below the poverty line for an individual. I can assure you, I've made as little as $10,900 in a year and did not qualify for any forms of government assistance -- not welfare, not foodstamps, not anything.
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Plenty of other countries have a higher minimum wage and low unemployment. e.g. Australia's minimum wage is AUD 16.37/h or AUD 20.30/h for causals. Unemployment is around 5% and unemployment benefits start at about AUD 250p/w. Which means you'd probably be better of living in Australia and looking for work than being employed on minimum wage in the USA.
The last time I was in a physical bookstore, I saw a tantalizing stack of copies of a book I really wanted to read. Wow!
I walked over to their cafe, got a nice hot latte, sat down with my tablet and logged into the bookstore's free WiFi. Promptly opened my Kindle app, bought the book in ebook format from Amazon, and was able to start reading it before my latte got cool.
I felt bad about screwing the bookstore, but it was just too easy!
Bookstores should be able to order books that their (potential) customers request. I have been told many times that "we are too busy to place individual orders" or "we do not handle Amazon Create Space titles" or "your request is too specialized". When bookshops actually were busy, and they were busy making money, they honoured every request, no matter how specialized or difficult - and then charged accordingly. Now whatever they are busy at, it is not busy making money or success.
Book Store Embrace Of Death!
Problem with BN is that cover prices for books are jacked up so online stores can offer 20-30% off, but BN stores sell the books at full cover price. Do they not see the problem? Why would anyone overpay for an item when it's cheaper online? BN offers a membership, but it's a pathetic 10% off in an era where 30% is normal. The 10% discount basically cancels out sales tax, and you're still paying full price for a book. Until BN addresses this issue, people aren't going to buy books in their stores. What I've noticed is BN has "addressed" this issue by emptying out my local store - less and less inventory each year. Are they just going to close down?
When you include the S&H, many times times the book costs more than list on Amazon. So, if my local B&N doesn't have it, they order it for me and I get for list without S&H - cheaper overall - and I think Amazon includes S&H when calculating tax because the numbers don't add up otherwise.
I think Amazon just wants all of us to do Kindle - they are trying to kill printed books.
If you're going "Big Box" then you are choosing to compete on price and selection. Unless there is something that strongly favors in-person pickup, like the exact avocado you want, critical timing, or outrageous delivery cost, then online is almost always going to beat big-box. They get to minimize physical plant costs and aesthetics in ways you just can't do if you have to interact with your customers.
If a physical store is going to compete with the internet-big-boxes, it has to offer something unique and personal that individuals are willing to pay a premium for. They can't stock everything but they can stock most of a genre. They can't compete on price, but they can have friendly, well-read staff who recognize you as a human being, can talk about books you've both read, and make more intelligent recommendations than Amazon's "this author you've read before has a new title."
Human interaction is the core of physical stores. Knowing which of your customers like to joke around a little, which prefer to be left on their own until they have a question, and recognizing when they come back are skills that will keep you in business. No one has a 'relationship' with Amazon, but you can have a relationship with your local bookseller. Of course, success still depends on their being enough warm bodies in their market area. For most purchases, most people seem perfectly content with finding their own way, completely devoid of interaction with a pimply-faced, minimum-wage, store drone. Or maybe they're willing to take the machine interface in favor of interacting with a pimply-faced, minimum-wage, angst-ridden kid. Which means that among the set of all book-buyers, those who go to the kitschy shop and chat up the sales staff are going to be a minority.
They can enjoy paying more for books at local bookstores. I'll continue to save significant money not buying from bookstores when I can help it.
Plenty of other countries have higher prices, higher costs, and pay more taxes, too.
There is some technology akin to 3d printing for books, such as the Espresso Book Machine which can print an entire book in a couple of minutes. Some universities have these machines, but I'm not sure if they will ever have much popularity outside of an academic setting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E...
Well, he's using the only sales argument he has from the customer's point of view. From the store's point of view though they won't sell it at the same price you get online because they need to pay for location, staff, deal with shoplifters and books that go stale and unsold that need to be taken off the shelves again. It's better for them not to take your business rather than open up Pandora's box and have people coming in expecting to be price matched, taking up sales rep time and getting angry if they're refused. And if word got around you could get it cheaper just by pointing to a webpage on a smartphone, other people buying it at normal markup could feel cheated and generate a lot of negative publicity about you. As sales pitches go it's a honest one, but it's not the real reason why they won't price match.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
when amazon rolls out same-day delivery in seattle..
You see?! We need basic income, not minimum wage!
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It doesn't work because my modest library has more good books than their entire multi-level megastore downtown!
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They're thick then.
You should price-match to your own online presence, at the least, if you have one. This denies a sale to the competition. There is also no reason to have your physical stores 1:1 in volume with online, and a lot of niche retailers are doing exactly that. Have a small physical footprint as a flagship and for those customers who want to touch before buying.
This. As a former bookstore owner, the parent grasps what the grandparent is clueless about.
From the store's point of view though they won't sell it at the same price you get online because they need to pay for location, staff, deal with shoplifters and books that go stale and unsold that need to be taken off the shelves again.
I have had the same experience with Barnes and Noble where the same book is listed as cheaper on their website than it is in person.
I find it just a little dishonest because in general you assume that if you visit the website of a store that the price listed on the website will match what you will pay in the store. I don't think they would "open pandora's box" if they changed this policy, though I suspect that they maintain it to have it both ways: beating Amazon on price online and charging whatever they want in the store. When those two collide I'd bet the majority of people just suck it up and buy it at the retail price because they already drove out to Barnes and Noble.
I'm surprised more bookstores haven't embraced JIT Printing: Don't see what you want on the shelf? We can print & bind it for you in 10 minutes. Make it have the ability to choose paper weight, cover (hard or softcover), font size, etc and you may be able to add enough value to sell it at a higher profit than a mass-market printing. Just being able to offer a back-catalog or out-of-print options is a huge win IMO.
Last time we were at Barnes and Nobel, we looked at a number of books (we promised my son a new book if he behaved well on our mall trip, which he did).
We looked at several books, but they wouldn't price match Amazon so we left with one book (a cheaper one) and added the rest to my son's Amazon Wishlist instead of buying 2-3 more expensive books.
Maybe if they could figure out how to adapt 3d printing to books
It's called "printing". It was pretty much 2D the last time I checked, but it worked.
Joking aside, this model is used by publishers and is called "print on demand". It sucks mostly because the quality of the print varies enormously. I've had both very good and horrible experiences. On the other hand, I would expect professional grade printing equipment to cost way more than shelf space, so I doubt that such an idea could save the traditional bookstores.
The article states that the workers in the amazon warehouse are frequenting the book sellers in the area. Whether they are treated badly, these workers have the disposable income to buy a book. I am big book buyer, but there have been times in my life when I went to the library instead of a bookstore. So as badly as these employees are treated, they are paid, though probably not as much as they should be, enough to have some expendable income.
And honestly, no matter what no independent retailer can compete with the big box or online stores. I used to pay extra just to support the local book and music dealers. Ultimately there were just not enough of us and they went out business.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
In my town, regardless of industry, warehouse workers are mostly employees of temp agencies, and usually only get hired on at a company after working there as a "temp" for over a year.
There is nothing sinister about it, these jobs have high turnover, from all causes, and generally they would have to hire multiple HR people just to manage them. The temp agencies are in a better position to manage workers who often don't last in an assignment. Maybe Joe Worker does fine the first 3 months, but then starts to have "personality conflicts." The temp agency can actually still make good use of this worker, and can reduce the overhead costs by avoiding assignments that require a lot of training. An in-house HR department isn't in that situation with these workers, so even if they spend the extra money to manage them, they just have to fire them anyways. It can be literally "impossible" to have a well-managed in-house warehouse workforce, because you can't evaluate, hire, train, and fire, workers fast enough. So you choose between being under-trained, or under-disciplined. The temp agency doesn't have to evaluate, hire, fire every time. They've abstracted out the different parts. So they can provide higher quality low-level workers than you could hire on your own. And when you want to change one out, there aren't a bunch of rules and red tape; nobody is getting hired or fired. You're simply ending an order on temp number #999999, and requesting a replacement, who will show up on time in the morning. And if it was some BS reason, or a "personality conflict," or somebody that got bored after a few months, that worker will call in every morning and probably get another assignment shortly.
My local independent bookstore offers 10% off cover price on ALL new books, all the time, no membership needed. They have the used copies on the same shelf, too. (and no sales tax in Oregon)
Cover prices are generally set by the publisher, not the retailer.
I suppose it depends on the industry, but in the field I work in $31K a year is a bit low for the minimum income an employee I might hire is willing to work for....and I'd be concerned about the quality of work I'd get out of someone who would settle for less.
See what these people are like? They play games like "fire a nigger" with our lives. Republicans are horrible people.
How is this informative? I'm a resident of NY and my income is currently $12,000. I would qualify if I weren't married and have a wife that makes pretty decent bank.
So take this post with a grain of "which state do you live in" salt.
The headline is more or less NYT waving "hello" to WaPo. The article itself is about physical retailers having a place in the future, when even the makers of e-readers prefer physical books.