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Why Portland Should Have Kept Its Water, Urine and All
Ars Technica has nothing good to say about the scientific understanding (or at least public understanding) that led Portland to drain 38 million gallons of water after a teenage prankster urinated into the city's water supply. Maybe SCADA systems shouldn't be quite as high on the list of dangers, when major utilities can be quite this brittle even without a high-skill attack.
literally.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Urine gets stronger the more you dilute it.
The uncomfortable truth is that all the water has pee in it.
Every glass of tap water in LA contains a few molecules of water that have, relatively recently, passed through my bladder.
The only people that don't have someone 'upriver', drink cattle urine instead.
One exception, well water, usually nasty tasting. Plus the joys of insufficient septic system setback.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Ignorant voters will fire anyone who is a member of the water board/district if it discovered they allowed piss to enter their facets.
Unlike the corrupt state and federal governments the local ones actually listen to their constituents.
http://saveie6.com/
...all the time. It's all psychology, it's human urine - therefor it is oh so terrible. Think of all the bird-droppings, huge flocks of birds flying by...doing their thing. They carry far more diseases with them than we dare to even think of, never-mind mention in the news. But human urine? Yuck ;)
What this world is coming to - is for you and me to decide.
Fish crap in their drink along with frogs, birds and who knows what else. They have water treatment plants to make it drinkable, how the fuck do these morons get into such high positions?
The most important line in the article is the very last:
$35k is nothing when compared to even the lawyer fees of a single potential frivolous lawsuit over this. All it would take is one kid getting sick (likely for completely unrelated reasons). And then they'd have to start publicly defending the decision to not clean it. I'm not saying the cleaning is the practical choice. Just that the absurdity of the U.S. legal system makes it fiscally irresponsible for the city to do anything else.
Budweiser sent trucks to take some of the piss water away to make American style beer
or libraries of congress, or liters
nosig today
David Shaff obviously has a thing for watersports. It takes a Republican level of personal denial to drain 38 million gallons just to avoid drinking a little bit of pee.
Funny; sounds more like a "Progressive" ...
Back in the "old days" (medieval), Beer was preserved by adding Lant, to give Lanted Ale.
Lant is stale urine, and it acted as a marvelous preservative. So, adding urine in this fashion to that volume won't be a problem. It's just one of perception..
Discussed to death on Bruce Schneier's blog. Long story short: The draining is part of a political fight between two groups who want to control and monetize the water supply. All in a city of nuts who, in this day and age, drink untreated water direct from uncovered reservoirs and streams. A lot of things to worry and wonder about there...
Oh, come on. Noone uses esoteric units of measurements like "liters"
I know you might be joking, but it's about 100 acre-feet, which is roughly the annual usage of 100 households. Portland has 250,000 households so we are talking about 4 hours' worth of water for the city of Portland.
That is part of the reason they are so willing to dump the water. If it were 10,000 acre-feet they would certainly not be dumping it.
Do you realize that in addition to urinating in water, why, there are studies underway to urinate in salt, flour, fruit juices, soup, sugar, milk... ice cream. Ice cream, Mandrake, children's ice cream.
PlusFive Slashdot reader for Android. Can post comments.
Here i sit
In awe and wonder
Would chaff drain a lake
For a bit of chunder
For the amount
The kid did pee
Is in the reals of
Homeopathy
But doesn't chaff know
Fish and birds
Will fill the lake
With piss and turds
If you gave me a choice between a printer and a giraffe with explosive diarrhoea, i'll get my ladder and my raincoat
About 0.0000000000002 Pacific Oceans.
Hope that helps.
I live in Portland. They'd probably allow it if he was a free-range drunkard with organic piss.
For linux tips: http://www.linuxtipsblog.com
This is not the first time that Portland has emptied a reservoir. This is the only time that it has made national news. One of the times that they drained the reservoir was for when somebody was attempting to pee in it and it was unclear if the intoxicated individual had actually urinated into the reservoir.
The reservoirs in Portland are a bit of a contentious subject. We Portlanders greatly appreciate our open air reservoirs however the City Water Bureau does not. Despite a large public outcry to keep our open air reservoirs our water department despite saying that they were working to keep our reservoirs, did not file for a waiver from the department of homeland security to keep the reservoirs open air. While most Portlanders recognize the importance of controlling access to our water supply we wish that the water department listened to public comment more and acted less like a dictator.
... and just like urine in the water, it would take a lot of poison to have any impact on the supply.
Viruses or bacteria that are chlorine resistant, on the other hand, could be a nasty problem.
Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
Are you sure you got the calculations right? You seem to be a factor ten off. According to Google, 36 million gallons are about 136,000 m^3, which with a typical (Danish) household annual water usage is around 1000 households.
1,505,144.03 cubic cubits. 57.575 nominal volume "Olympic size" swimming pools. 4,750,000 bushels. 25,313,380 imperial pints. 0.00000000000020300 Pacific Oceans. I hope that clarifies things. :)
Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
"Easily" poison 38 million gallons of water? See, this is exactly the same problem from the original article. A typical person drinks a lot less than 1 liter of water at a time, but we'll be generous to your poisoning idea and base our required dose of poison on 1 liter of water. Probably the most deadly known poison by unit mass is Batrachotoxin. In order to poison 38 million gallons of water so that every liter contains a fatal dose, you would need about 15 tons of it. 15 tons of poison produced by a particular species of frog, and then only when they eat a particular species of beetle, is pretty hard to come by. If you went with something more generally available, such as some form of cyanide, you'd need about 228 tons.
So, your plan to poison the water supply is dastardly, evil, possibly even insidious... but not remotely practical. Sure, you could do it, but the expense would be high and the effictiveness would be relatively low since the water can be shut off centrally. You'd have a lot more luck just getting your henchmen to go on a rampage through the main street with conventional weapons.
This is a classic example of governments and problems. When some sort of problem is identified, and "the people" want action to happen, the government has two choices to deal with the problem.
One, they can take appropriate action, if they can do that and know what to do and how to do it. Even better if doing so is relatively cheap. In this case, you do the cheap thing to make it go away.
Two, they can do everything in their power to suppress knowledge of the problem. A problem nobody knows about is one that doesn't need to be solved. This is especially important if the problem is big or serious, or affects a lot of people in a negative way, and to which the government has no solution. The only thing worse than a big problem is having "the people" aware of it and that their government is unable to act. So is is essential that the government take this route when they cannot solve the problem or don't know how, or can't afford the solution. Or there's some other reason they don't want to solve it but they can't admit that either.
So type one problems, you dump the reservoir. It's cheap to clean it out and, well, water is cheap anyway.
A good example of type two problems are the side effects from the chemical disposal mishandling at Groom Lake. To admit the problem exists would invite a huge liability mess. So by denying it, they avoid the problem. Because they can.
It has been speculated one reason the governments generally dodge the UFO issue is that if they were ever identified as a real force(s) of some kind, then the people would demand that something be done about stopping it. It's not clear anyone would have the ability to DO anything about it and when your government can't protect you, what good is the government? So a problem like this would have to be denied.
Thankfully there are no UFOs. So this is not a problem.
Sig for hire.
According to the City of Portland's Website (http://www.portlandoregon.gov/Water/article/328963), the total capacity of the Portland reservoir system is about 220 million gallons, with "distribution storage reservoirs" ranging in size from 1000 to 10 million gallons. How much urine did this kid evacuate into the reservoir? According to the National Institutes of Health (cites in Livescience- http://www.livescience.com/323...), the average healthy human bladder can hold "nearly 2 cups of urine comfortably."
Let's err on the side of caution on both sides- assume that this kid both had an insanely huge bladder capable of holding 2-1/2 cups of urine *and* that he peed into a 1000 gallon distribution storage reservoir- the worst-case scenario, in other words. 2-1/2 cups of urine is 20 ounces, which is equal to 0.156 gallons (128 oz/1 gal). 0.156 gallons/1000 gallons = 0.00015625- 0.00156% pee in the reservoir. And this is *before* the processing that happens to all water *after* it exits the reservoir and before it enters the city's pipes.
The reason this is absurd is the same reason that fear of poisoning a city's water supply via open reservoirs is stupid: you'd both need so bloody much of whatever it is to have a significant amount *and* that something would have to survive various filtration, purification, etc. processes after that.
No, scratch that... draining a reservoir b/c a kid peed into it isn't absurd, it's mind-blowingly stupid and a horrid waste of taxpayer money. Any lawyer who couldn't defend against a lawsuit the way I did above deserves to not only be disbarred, but to also have his college + HS diplomas revoked.
-Z
Definitely. The first floor of the building I work in is 10,000. The government never builds anything that small.
Lol... they're closing the resivour next year anyway:
"Those natural contaminants are a key part of the Environmental Protection Agency's justification for a rule that requires all open-air reservoirs to be covered. Portland is scheduled to disconnect the open-air reservoirs on Mt. Tabor from the drinking water system by the end of 2015.
Shaff said there isn't much the bureau can do about those natural contaminants in the meantime, and that they don't pose a serious health risk."
http://www.oregonlive.com/port...
So this is actually twice as stupid as it sounds.
And then there's trying to get away with it. If one teenager peeing was enough to set off the alarms and get the reservoir drained, I'm pretty sure a fleet of dump trucks would be noticed.
Your calculation is way off, only 14kg of Batrachotoxin would be needed to render 38m gallon of water lethal, not 15 tons. One can carry that much in a backpack, not to mention that this is for doses that are lethal to everyone (if evenly distributed); much less would be sufficient to cause serious health issues for the majority who drinks from it.
(According to wikipedia sources 100 microgram of Batrachotoxin is lethal for a 68kg person. 100 microgram in every liter of 144,000,000 l (=38m gallon) of water requires 144,000,000*100microgram = 14.4 kg poison.)
This is of course not a justification for draining this amount of water from the pool every time the pool is micturated upon in the fair city of Portland.
Attitudes make the difference between Space and Time: we want to MAX our temporal, and MIN our spatial extension.
150mL urine in 150 million liters?
1/10^9; that's a 9X potentiation! Holy shit, that piss would have been potent!
If I wanted to "easily poison" a water supply, I'd just form a corporation, say one that stores chemicals meant for coal mining, and build my facility near a river that supplies a small city's water supply.
That way, not only would I get limited liability if there was an "unforseen accident", my corporation could declare bankruptcy and dodge all lawsuits.
Isn't that what liberals always do, if only metaphorically?
See Detroit for details.
Yes it's silly to dump all that water just because of a tiny bit of pee but it's also silly for people to say "Oh, but LA is sooo thirsty."
Water is a local resource. It can't just be piped down to LA. And for the people of Portland it's not that much water. When I lived there one thing I never needed to worry about was saving water. It rains a lot there. 38M gallons is about 20 seconds flow of the Columbia river. My water bill was so low as to be negligible; I literally never had to think about it. That may be hard for people in drier parts of the country to grasp but there's no reason to Portland should feel bad. For all we know that reservoir was due for a cleaning anyway.
Does Portland even have conservatives? Surely not in Portland anyway.
The Portland city water supply is continually tested, and those tests have repeatedly shown the water to be of higher quality (in terms of dissolved solids/minerals and contaminants) than most of the city/municipal water supplies in the United States -- despite the lack of treatment and open reservoirs. There's a 12,000 foot tall mountain with some of the cleanest natural springs in the world flowing directly in to the city water supply; a bottle of Perrier or San Pellegrino is probably dirtier.
This whole thing is astroturf anyway; someone wants to take away the city's ability to set water rates.
100 microgram of Batrachotoxin is lethal for a 68kg person
So you'll need to double the dose for American sized humans.
Detroit was screwed by banks such as USB. Pre-crash, Detroit bet that interest rates would go up. After the crash, rates went down, and banks and traders did shady things like the LIBOR scandal to lower rates. Detroit thus had big payments to make to USB.
But Detroit isn't insolvent. It has cash flow. There is no reason for Detroit to go bankrupt, it can make payments. Bankruptcy is a scheme to weaken the negotiating power of city workers. If Detroit was a private company, it would be able to renegotiate its payments. Or the Fed would bail it out. Why doesn't the Fed bail out Detroit? One of the reasons the Fed cited when it bailed out banks was that pensions would be threatened otherwise. In Detroit, its precisely pensions that are being reduced. The Fed could act. Why doesn't it?
In conclusion, Detroit should not have been making bets with big jackal banks like USB. But even now, Detroit has cash flow, it is not insolvent. It should be bailed out, because pensions are at stake.
Are you kidding? Sure, there may be decent well water out there, but not in many areas. Much of the midwest US that uses well water has to use water softeners because of the mineral content, and some still have occasional boil orders for safety.
I remember when my Chicago suburb switched from well water to Lake Michigan water. The lake water was not only much better tasting, but usually 10 degrees colder out of the tap...
In the fifties, Detroit was one of the most prosperous cities in America, but after half a century of one party progressive government, starting in 1962, it is a bankrupt toilet.
"Detroit bet". No, the corrupt kleptocracy ruling Detroit made that bet.
And now that the Detroit tax base has dried up, you want a bailout from national tax payers to keep the kleptocracy going. Typical. That's the way the Takers always see it - there will always be someone else to shake down and rob.
But every bit of water we've got has been dinosaur piss and shit at some point.
David Shaff obviously has a thing for watersports. It takes a Republican level of personal denial to drain 38 million gallons just to avoid drinking a little bit of pee.
Funny; sounds more like a "Progressive" ...
I don't know the man's political leanings, but I know plenty of Republicans who have to deal with unions as part of their jobs. If you read (you know, read and understand), it says he's negotiating on the city's side, he's not part of the union.
I don't think any of this says anything the man's political persuasions. What it does say is you and the grandparent poster both need to go sit in the same corner wearing the same dunce caps for making the same dumb ass inferences for insanely stupid reasons.
Botulinium toxin is the most deadly poison known, with an LD-50 of about 1.4 ng/kg (though that's when injected - I'm not sure what it is when drunk. I think it's broken down pretty rapidly outdoors too). With that, you would need about 15 mg to make all 143 million liters deadly (for 68 kg persons drinking 1 liter each). It it also mass produced for use in cosmetics, so it's easier to get than Batrachotoxin. Thouh as I said I think it's broken down pretty quickly under normal conditions (was it by exposure to oxygen?), so it's not anything to worry about in this context. But it's a good illustration of how potent poisons exist.
From http://detroitdebtmoratorium.o...:
I may have been wrong about the definition of insolvent. Detroit is insolvent because it can't make its payments. There is another kind of insolvency that businesses continue to operate under. From wikipedia:
One might argue that Detroit has assets and cash flows that, while unable to make its payments right now, will make it solvent in the future. Someone, the state or the federal government or the Fed, should help Detroit in the meantime.
The case of Detroit is somewhat similar to what happened to AIG in 2008.
AIG was exposed on credit default swaps, Detroit was exposed on interest rate swaps. But in both cases, the banks on the other side had written into the contract terms that triggered big payments, in case of a ratings downgrade for example. So when rates went down, Detroit was downgraded by the ratings agencies, and UBS (similar to what Goldman Sachs did in the case of AIG) demanded payment immediately of the future projected values of the swaps.
The Fed bailed AIG out, though. From wikipedia:
"AIG’s credit rating was downgraded and it was required to post additional collateral with its trading counter-parties, leading to a liquidity crisis that began on September 16, 2008 and essentially bankrupted all of AIG. The United States Federal Reserve Bank stepped in, announcing the creation of a secured credit facility of up to US$85 billion to prevent the company's collapse, enabling AIG to deliver additional collateral to its credit default swap trading partners."
SIGTARP was created to bail out AIG.
SIGTARP mentions "retirement accounts" as a concern of the FRBNY leading to the AIG bailout, on page one of its report. Why isn't it concerned about the retirement accounts of the inhabitants of Detroit?
and in many areas it's crap.
otoh some areas have spring water pumped straight to the water utility.
however, very few people choose where they live based on that.
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
The litre (note the spelling) is the most perfect unit of volume, being as it is half the volume of a big bottle of coke.
I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
Only in your fantasy land.
Great hyperbolic story about "evil corporation$" but not remotely close to what would really happen. If you tried to do what you claim, you would find the regulation, permitting, and legal requirements would far outstrip your ability to meet them. You want to build a plant by a river? Hah! The EPA says otherwise. You want to handle poisons? Hah! OSHA will be all over you before you start. You want to put water back into a river? Go see the EPA again. Wash, rinse, and repeat until all government bureaucrats for all government agencies are satisfied.
Translation: you wouldn't even get to step 1 of your diabolical scheme because the world does not work the way you describe, even though it sounds great