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New Zero-Day Flash Bug Affects Windows, OS X, and Linux Computers

An anonymous reader writes "Researchers at the Kaspersky Lab have uncovered a zero-day Adobe Flash vulnerability that affects Windows, OS X, and Linux. 'While the exploit Kaspersky observed attacked only computers running Microsoft Windows, the underlying flaw, which is formally categorized as CVE-2014-1776 and resides in a Flash component known as the Pixel Bender, is present in the Adobe application built for OS X and Linux machines as well.' Adobe has reportedly patched the bug for all platforms. Researchers first detected the bug from attacks performed on seven Syrian computers. The attacks seem to have been hosted on the Syrian Ministry of Justice website, which has led to speculation that these are state-sponsored vulnerability exploits. This speculation is further supported by evidence that one of the exploits was 'designed to target computers that have the Cisco Systems MeetingPlace Express Add-In version 5x0 installed. The app is used to view documents and images during Web conferences.'"

109 of 178 comments (clear)

  1. Long story short by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    flash is equally bad on all platforms web guys please stop using it.

    1. Re:Long story short by powerlord · · Score: 5, Funny

      flash is equally bad on all platforms web guys please stop using it.

      Hey ... look at the upside, feature parity across Windows, OSX and Linux ... even for bugs and exploits.

      --
      This space for rent. All reasonable inquiries will be entertained at proprietors discretion.
    2. Re:Long story short by perpenso · · Score: 1

      Casual gaming is moving from the web to smartphone and tablet apps.

    3. Re:Long story short by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      They use Flash because for all the talk about alternatives to Flash, it's still *** BY FAR *** the best platform their is.

      No, they use Flash because it's what they've used before, and because it's 'everywhere,' not because it's better.

    4. Re:Long story short by Stargoat · · Score: 1

      Compared to Windows. All comparisons to product security are inherently compared to the most commonly used piece of software in the world, MS Windows. Microsoft in recent years has created a strong security culture, deploying patches rapidly and in a consistent manner.

      Adobe, their collective soul to the devil, has not done this, despite being on many many platforms. A few years ago when the US DoHS went after Java for being having awful security, the one they should have been targeting was Adobe. Both Flash and Reader are awful and I strongly regret being forced to use them.

      --
      Hoist Number One and Number Six.
    5. Re:Long story short by popo · · Score: 1

      "Also, please elaborate on the massive HTML5 problems."

      The fact that you're asking why HTML5 isn't usable for games just shows that you're really not familiar with either platform.

      Please tell me you're not actually trying to make the case that HTML5 is usable for video game development.

      Nature abhors a vacuum Lorizean. HTML5 sure isn't being ignored because it hasn't been hyped enough yet. As the other poster said, "show me Kingdom Rush written in HTML5 and I'll begin to think you're not a troll".

      --
      ------ The best brain training is now totally free : )
    6. Re:Long story short by popo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yawn... "another HTML5 is almost there" post. Technology is either here or it's vapor. .. And it's not here.

      --
      ------ The best brain training is now totally free : )
    7. Re:Long story short by gstoddart · · Score: 2

      So, it's the least terrible solution (which is debatable) so therefore it's good?

      Sorry, but Flash has been a giant security hole for about as long as it has existed.

      You want to play casual games in Flash, that's your choice.

      But I've been happily avoiding Flash for a decade or so, and have yet to find a single website I cared enough about to install Flash. Occasionally I need to use it for work, which means a very specific machine, running IE -- which is only used for these kinds of garbage that HR thinks I'm required to use.

      If I hit a page which gives me nothing but "You need Flash to run this site", all it's ever going to see from me is the back button.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    8. Re:Long story short by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 4, Funny

      flash is equally bad on all platforms web guys please stop using it.

      Will nothing please you whiners? The Adobe Exploit Runtime offers simultaneous support across Windows, OSX, and Linux for a cutting edge vulnerability, and do we hear even a whisper of credit?

    9. Re:Long story short by perpenso · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Right. And the only reason that the "desktop class" A7 isn't running Flash is because it's a threat to Apple's business model.

      Actually it was considered a massive security hole. This article seems to validate that opinion. Yeah, I know, there was ample evidence for that opinion back in the day too.

    10. Re:Long story short by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      Maybe only on a relative scale.

      Like politicians.

      Or actual piles of shit.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    11. Re:Long story short by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      No, in between vapor and not vapor ... we have alpha and beta builds as intermediate states.

      Of course, it can transition to either vapor or not vapor from those. I've seen a couple of alpha builds turn back into vapor in my time, and I've seen Google have stuff in beta for years.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    12. Re:Long story short by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Dude is probably a flash 'developer' and doesn't wanna see his lively hood dry up.

    13. Re:Long story short by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      No. Software can actually be good.

      Flash isn't, never has been, and probably never will be.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    14. Re:Long story short by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The problem is Adobe Co. They have zero desire to build anything proper.

    15. Re:Long story short by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      There's definitely no argument there.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    16. Re: Long story short by Lorizean · · Score: 1

      I did actually want you to elaborate on the flaws, because I'm curious. I have no idea about HTML5, I was genuinely wondering what's holding it back. And I just pointed out a flawed argument - certainly you're not denying that flash could be (a lot) better?

    17. Re:Long story short by Dixie_Flatline · · Score: 4, Insightful

      One of the best things Steve Jobs ever did for the security of computing around the world is slowly crush Flash under his heel.

      It's bad.
      It's always been bad. Apparently, it will always be bad.

      Just let it die. It's a CPU and memory hog (another good reason not to use it on mobile; the CPUs these days can handle it, but it's bad for battery life) and it's a massive security hole. Why in the world should it get a pass? Someone at Adobe should've nuked it from orbit years ago.

    18. Re:Long story short by NotDrWho · · Score: 1

      Sure, you could download an exe file. No security risk there.

      --
      SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
    19. Re: Long story short by Lorizean · · Score: 1

      It's a fallacy to claim that something is good just because the alternatives are worse -http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Not_as_bad_as .

    20. Re:Long story short by IamTheRealMike · · Score: 1

      Right, because Gecko and WebKit never have security vulnerabilities in them.

    21. Re:Long story short by mellon · · Score: 1

      Get real. The NSA isn't allowed to talk about this stuff. Doesn't mean it's not true.

    22. Re:Long story short by tbuddy · · Score: 1

      Sure, but when you are talking about Facebook, Yahoo, Cartoon Network, Disney, et cetera the goal is to have people stay on your website playing their stupid games. Take it out of the browser and they aren't on your site. Mobile apps still keep a strong tie with the ad/analytics network that feeds the cash cows. Free games need to maintain their product, the users' data.

    23. Re:Long story short by tepples · · Score: 1

      Surely there are cross-platform ways to deliver a game to a user without it running IN THE BROWSER, no?

      I'll take you up on this deal. What might these "cross-platform ways" happen to be?

    24. Re:Long story short by tepples · · Score: 1

      If I want games, I'll fire up a game console.

      So what do you do when you see something like this?

      • HTML5 version: Play Now
      • Console versions: We are seeking a publisher
    25. Re:Long story short by tepples · · Score: 1

      So what's a valid abstraction for video game input, graphics, and audio across Windows, GNU/Linux, and OS X?

    26. Re:Long story short by the_povinator · · Score: 1

      What I wonder is-- how did the Syrians get hold of a zero-day vulnerability in Flash? I doubt they found it themselves. Did they buy it, or did the Russians give it to them?

      --
      The .sig is dead, and I believe I had a hand in killing it.
    27. Re:Long story short by gmagill · · Score: 1

      If I want games, I'll fire up a game console.

      So what do you do when you see something like this?

      • HTML5 version: Play Now
      • Console versions: We are seeking a publisher

      I don't know because I've never seen that.

    28. Re:Long story short by grantspassalan · · Score: 1

      Apple for good reason does not allow Flash on any of their devices. I can still download it from Adobe for my Mac if I first change a setting in the control panel that by default prevents this. So far I have resisted the temptation. What do instead is fool the Flash infested websites, mostly videos, that I am using an iPad and then like magic the video usually works just fine. There are many YouTube videos that behave this way. I don’t play games, so Flash might as well not exist.

      --
      A sufficiently advanced simulation is indistinguishable from reality.
    29. Re:Long story short by grantspassalan · · Score: 1

      More often than not you can fool most websites by telling them that you are using an iPad. That site will then happily show you the video. This works especially well on YouTube.

      --
      A sufficiently advanced simulation is indistinguishable from reality.
    30. Re:Long story short by Carewolf · · Score: 1

      Linux users are yet again destined to be disappointed and uninfested.

      Hah You should see my wine install. It only has IE6 and it's like a bug farm in there. Whenever something doesn't work in wine, I halfway suspect it has more to due with all the windows viruses it has collected than any actual problems with wine.

    31. Re: Long story short by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      "The primary is issue is how slow javascript is "

      HTML5 has absolutely nothing to do with Javascript.

      " and how hard it is to develop in and how hard it is to make compatible w/ all browsers in use."

      HTML5 is a new standard and all browsers haven't yet caught up to it, but they will. That all being said, both Flash and HTML5 are frigging stupid technologies to use for creating video games, and Flash is frigging stupid, whether you are developing video games or not.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    32. Re:Long story short by LinuxIsGarbage · · Score: 1

      One of the best things Steve Jobs ever did for the security of computing around the world is slowly crush Flash under his heel.

      It's bad.
      It's always been bad. Apparently, it will always be bad.

      Just let it die. It's a CPU and memory hog (another good reason not to use it on mobile; the CPUs these days can handle it, but it's bad for battery life) and it's a massive security hole. Why in the world should it get a pass? Someone at Adobe should've nuked it from orbit years ago.

      The inefficiency seems to be getting worse with time. My 2007 PC used to be able to watch 480p Flash videos no problem. Now it studders and stalls, revving the CPU up to 100% while Flash draws in the 2D frame buffer with a crayon. And for inexplicable reasons there seems to be a memory leak: if I watch one Youtube video after another, eventually the Flash process approaches 2GB Working set, and crashes. Doesn't matter the browser.

      If I download the raw FLV file and play it in VLC, MPC-HC, etc the CPU sips power at 30%, and it displays butter smooth. So much for all the "hardware acceleration" they keep bragging about with every upgrade. I hope Flash burns in hell one of these days.

    33. Re:Long story short by styrotech · · Score: 1

      The Adobe Exploit Runtime offers simultaneous support across Windows, OSX, and Linux for a cutting edge vulnerability

      Not so fast... most of us Linux users are falling behind in our access to cutting edge vulnerabilities.

      Sure we still have plenty of the old ones to play with, so it isn't all bad.

    34. Re: Long story short by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      I accept your claim that there are millions of idiots.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    35. Re:Long story short by ConceptJunkie · · Score: 1

      But, wait, didn't Adobe develop... oh, yeah, that's awful. But what about...? No, you're right, it's a usability nightmare. But you have to admit... no, wait you don't.

      I give up. You're right. Adobe has all of the arrogance and user-hostility of Microsoft, but without the smart people that you can actually find at Microsoft.

      --
      You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
    36. Re:Long story short by ConceptJunkie · · Score: 1

      For too many software development companies, "alpha" now means, "Hop on board now because this is the next new hotness, and you can be one of the cool kids." "Beta" now means, "We're bored with this and have moved on to something else."

      Nobody ever finishes anything any more.

      --
      You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
    37. Re:Long story short by brantondaveperson · · Score: 1

      You know it's funny, but I do take issue with the suggestion that shadertoy is written in javascript. It's not, it's written in whatever they call that shader language these days. The javascript just ships a bunch of shader code onto the graphics card, and then sits back and takes the credit. It's not even really HTML5 either, it's just a bunch of code running on your graphics card.

      If you were to attempt to write an actual game in HTML5, with things like physics and opponent AI and all the stuff we've grown to love, then the story gets a little bit different.

      Also, the Unreal Engine has been written in asm.js, which isn't HTML5 or javascript either. And is even further away from general acceptance and widespread support that HTML5 is.

    38. Re: Long story short by quickOnTheUptake · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure that JS has a lot to do with writing games in HTML5.

      --
      Mod points: Guaranteed to remove your sense of humor.
      Side effects may include gullibility and temporary retardation
  2. Re:Doesn't affect... by sshumway · · Score: 1

    It's always weird to stumble across one's name in comments.

  3. I never installed flash ... by perpenso · · Score: 1

    I never installed flash and I rarely find web pages that require it. I've noticed a slow migration away from it as well. One or twice a year I check some websites that required flash in the past and some no longer do so. YMMV.

    It does not seem that difficult to go without flash and it is getting easier every day.

    1. Re:I never installed flash ... by jonnythan · · Score: 1

      There are a number of things that require it. For me the big ones are MLB At Bat, WatchESPN, Hulu, and HBO Go.

    2. Re:I never installed flash ... by perpenso · · Score: 1

      There are a number of things that require it. For me the big ones are MLB At Bat, WatchESPN, Hulu, and HBO Go.

      People are migrating to phones and tablets for such things.

    3. Re:I never installed flash ... by grantspassalan · · Score: 1

      Just for fun I tried to watch a video on Hulu with Safari and sure enough they told me I had to have Flash installed in order to watch their stuff. Then I told Safari to lie to them and tell them that I am using an iPad. Low and behold the videos worked like a charm. Why do sites like Hulu and others still require that people have this malware vector installed on their systems?

      --
      A sufficiently advanced simulation is indistinguishable from reality.
  4. I have it disabled. by Antony+T+Curtis · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I deliberately do not install Flash on my computers _and_ I deliberately choose to not install any of the third-party work-alikes.

    If the content owner only publishes content in a SWF, it is not worth my bother to look at it. Okay, I can't view video clips in Facebook, but if it is an embedded youtube video, usually I can view it just fine by going to youtube's website.

    --
    No sig. Move along - nothing to see here.
    1. Re:I have it disabled. by PPH · · Score: 1

      large commercial applications still on flash.

      Porn.

      Just call the CEO (as a parent from some morals protection group) and ask why they are still promoting that "porn player app". It'll get ported to something else on their IT department's double emergency overtime program.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
  5. Portable code ... by perpenso · · Score: 1

    Well on the positive side it is refreshing to see someone writing portable code. :-)

  6. flash is dead by rewindustry · · Score: 1

    - or should be - long live the open alts.

    1. Re:flash is dead by tepples · · Score: 1

      If HTML5 games are "a non-starter", then why are the vast majority of idle games (Cookie Clicker, Clicking Bad, DripStat, etc.) written in HTML5?

    2. Re:flash is dead by grantspassalan · · Score: 1

      Here is a serious answer -> All iPads, iPhones and newer Macs don’t use Flash. You don’t even need a browser, but can download hundreds of games, many of them for free. Most of those free ones are far better than anything using Flash. Many of those games even work without an Internet connection, which none of the Flash-based games do.

      --
      A sufficiently advanced simulation is indistinguishable from reality.
    3. Re:flash is dead by tepples · · Score: 1

      Your use of "real" reminds me of the no true Scotsman fallacy. What do you mean by real?

    4. Re:flash is dead by Trax3001BBS · · Score: 1

      Here is a serious answer -> All iPads, iPhones and newer Macs don’t use Flash. You don’t even need a browser, but can download hundreds of games, many of them for free. Most of those free ones are far better than anything using Flash. Many of those games even work without an Internet connection, which none of the Flash-based games do.

      Adobe quite writing Flash for android a few years ago, youtube works just fine, it breaks some sites but in the long run better for it.

      February 23, 2012
      "Adobe has published roadmap for its Flash Player and its desktop counterpart, Adobe AIR. Overall the company expects Flash to cater predominantly to gaming and premium video markets. And as stated before, mobile version will no longer be developed."

      Some replied to me about not being on a Win8 system as it was different somehow, the above was posted before Metro: "Less clear is the path got Windows 8, as to if and how Adobe will be integrated with the Metro interface. "

      "Mobile Support
      Adobe will discontinue support for mobile devices and 11.1 will be the last version, though bug fixes could be released."... "This means that Flash will not have any presence in the fastest growing computing segment. "

      All quotes from http://mobiletechpundit.blogsp... as posted nothing changed, I don't care for spelling lessons, but it's just badly written.

      Adobe lays out the future for Flash: a platform for the next 5-10 years - as an Adobe PDF natch
      http://wwwimages.adobe.com/www...

  7. Seriously: why doesn't Flash just die? by dsinc · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm not a Flash developer, so I'm asking very seriously: is there a compelling reason to keep using Flash in 2014? For the past several years, the only notable things associated with this technology have been major security holes.

    1. Re:Seriously: why doesn't Flash just die? by Kardos · · Score: 2

      It is dying. Things don't die instantly in the software world, they just decline.

    2. Re:Seriously: why doesn't Flash just die? by PPH · · Score: 1

      I don't have Flash on my latest Linux laptop (Debian distro). And YouTube seems to work fine*. I suspect that they are already falling back to HTML5. The only people that seem to be hanging onto Flash are porn sites who want to do some digging around on your system in the background while you are fapping.

      *The occasional annoying "you need a plugin ..." message but then the video just plays.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    3. Re:Seriously: why doesn't Flash just die? by tbuddy · · Score: 1

      According to them it is better for their purposes.

    4. Re:Seriously: why doesn't Flash just die? by l0ungeb0y · · Score: 1

      Yes, 2-way HD Video Chat on Desktop Browsers and Native Apps with Adobe Air. In a couple years real time video communication will be fulfilled in Browser with WebRTC, but WebRTC is not ready and only supported on a couple browsers. Until then the only reliable method to get 2-way HD Video Conferences in both the Browser and Native Apps is with Adobe Flex streaming to a Media Server such as FMS or Wowza.

    5. Re:Seriously: why doesn't Flash just die? by ConceptJunkie · · Score: 1

      Some things die so slowly it seems you have to literally wait for the actual users to die. IE6 is one of those things. Flash is another.

      --
      You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
  8. Ahem. by peatbakke · · Score: 5, Funny
    1. Re:Ahem. by tgetzoya · · Score: 2

      I want to give you all the points.

    2. Re:Ahem. by lgw · · Score: 1

      4,294,967,296 Internets to you sir! That's all the internets!

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    3. Re:Ahem. by ConceptJunkie · · Score: 1

      4,294,967,296 Internets to you sir! That's all the internets!

      You know, with IPv6, you get 340,282,366,920,938,463,463,374,607,431,768,211,456 internets.

      --
      You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
  9. Re:Doesn't affect... by Himmy32 · · Score: 1

    And hear I thought you weren't affected.

  10. Uninstall Flash! by chihowa · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I just reinstalled my OS a few weeks ago and never reinstalled flash. Despite a profuse amount of websurfing and watching videos here and there, I haven't needed flash yet.

    Fewer annoying, moving, sound-producing site navigation controls, better battery life on my laptop when watching videos, and fewer horrible security vulnerabilities to worry about! Dumping Flash is something I should have done long ago!

    --
    If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
    1. Re:Uninstall Flash! by PPH · · Score: 1

      Yours might not. My bank doesn't use flash.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    2. Re:Uninstall Flash! by Arkh89 · · Score: 2

      If your bank is pushing the use of Flash, you *SERIOUSLY* need to consider changing from establishment.

    3. Re:Uninstall Flash! by Kjella · · Score: 2

      Or just set it to "click to run", that way a redirect to a malicious website will do nothing, a compromised banner ad will do nothing so they'd have to compromise actual flash content on a site you use. For bonus points you don't see flash ads. And if it gets too annoying to do a single click extra, you can always set up an exception for that site.

      Personally what I miss the most these days is a setting to really block everything from opening up a new tab/window, no matter what link I clicked. Despite having popup-protection the scummy sites always find a way to open a new tab/window when you click a link, I'd like to just disable it. Either right-click, open in new tab/window or create a new tab (Ctrl-T/Ctrl-N) should be the absolutely only way. The rest you can block like a popup.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
  11. If it's patched, is it still a zero-day bug? by davidwr · · Score: 1

    Sure, it might have been exploited while it was a zero-day bug but by the time it made it to /., it was an EX-zero-day bug.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
    1. Re:If it's patched, is it still a zero-day bug? by gmhowell · · Score: 1

      'Zero-day' no longer carries any meaning.

      --
      Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
  12. Re:SFW or NSFW? by Guy+Harris · · Score: 1

    SFW, as long as you aren't drinking anything you wouldn't want to spit up on your keyboard when you're reading it, otherwise your employer's IT department might not be happy about having to deal with the results of your spit-take.

  13. bull by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    http://bombermine.clay.io/

  14. Parent SHOULD NOT be modded flamebait by NotDrWho · · Score: 3, Informative

    As unpopular as it is to say here on HTML-5-worshiping Slashdot, it's true. Flash can still do a lot of things that are either impossible on other platforms, or which suck on other platforms. Try implementing the average Flash game in HTML 5 (can't do it at all) or Java (can do it, but it will bring your system to a crawl) sometime.

    Don't shoot the messenger just because you wish the message weren't true.

    --
    SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
    1. Re:Parent SHOULD NOT be modded flamebait by paskie · · Score: 2

      I just, like many others, wish someone would actually fucking *elaborate* on *concrete* *technical* hurdles of HTML5. We are not denying there are none, but just saying "you are clueless if you need to ask" is not going to help your position. We don't want to argue with you but we want you to actually explain yourselves. Gee, this thread is so frustrating.

      --
      It's not the fall that kills you. It's the sudden stop at the end. -Douglas Adams
    2. Re:Parent SHOULD NOT be modded flamebait by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I guess it is simply a matter of transferring Flash graphics skills to the HTML5 world. Google Docs have already demonstrated what is possible. Google has directly and indirectly probably spent 500 million dollars into almost insane attempts (all their runtime type inferencing in FF and Chrome and so on) to speed up JS. And that money has had some serious results.

      http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u32/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=v8&lang2=gpp&data=u32

    3. Re:Parent SHOULD NOT be modded flamebait by grantspassalan · · Score: 1

      There is nothing that Flash can do on the millions of iPads, iPhones and modern Macs, because it won’t run on any of them. On the rest of the devices out there, such as Android and Windows, Flash can be and often has been a fabulous way for malware writers to infiltrate your device.

      --
      A sufficiently advanced simulation is indistinguishable from reality.
    4. Re:Parent SHOULD NOT be modded flamebait by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Unreal Engine 3 has been implemented with HTML5 and asm.js. You have no excuse.

  15. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  16. Cookie Clicker by tepples · · Score: 2

    Cookie Clicker is perfectly playable with Flash Player turned off.

    1. Re:Cookie Clicker by mythosaz · · Score: 3, Interesting

      What sort of monster links people to Cookie Clicker without so much as a warning!

      [I have 2M HC's.]

    2. Re:Cookie Clicker by maliqua · · Score: 1

      curse you for reminding me that exists i'm going to be wrangle gramas for weeks now

      i've seen quite a few html5 games over the years, lemmings was one of them i can't really think of any else off hand, hell i remember seeing decent games back when it was called dhtml and the celeron 300A was around

      anyway got hooked on fricken cookie clicker again before i even finished making this post so again curse you

    3. Re:Cookie Clicker by tepples · · Score: 1

      The sort of monster who is porting it to a retro video game platform despite having only 77K heavenly chips.

    4. Re:Cookie Clicker by mythosaz · · Score: 1

      Good lord you're a maniac.

  17. Re:My Little Flash Pony by ArcadeMan · · Score: 1

    The output we see isn't in flash, it's just video.

    Flash should be relegated to "production tool only" status.

  18. SWF: 20 fps; SVG: 5 fps by tepples · · Score: 3, Informative

    I just, like many others, wish someone would actually fucking *elaborate* on *concrete* *technical* hurdles of HTML5.

    HTML5 has no guaranteed audio or video codec. Some browsers support only free codecs from Xiph and On2, others only patented codecs from Dolby and MPEG-LA. HTML5 implementations in use provide no consistent way for the application to request access to the camera and microphone. Neither IE nor Safari implements the Stream API at all, and Firefox and Chrome implement prefixed (that is, proprietary) versions of it. And on my laptop in Firefox 28, this particle system runs at 20 fps in Flash, 9 fps in HTML5 Canvas, and 5 fps in SVG. Unlike HTML5 JavaScript, ActionScript has static typing and class-style inheritance, and some developers prefer those. Finally, copies of old versions of Flash for making vector animations are sold on the secondary market; Edge Animate is available only on a rental basis through Creative Cloud. I'd be interested to see what workarounds you recommend for these.

    1. Re:SWF: 20 fps; SVG: 5 fps by cbhacking · · Score: 1

      Uh... what the hell is wrong with your laptop? That test is from 2010. I got 50FPS in HTML, 121 in Canvas, and 81 in SVG (rough averages, neither the highs nor the lows). I suppose I could try it in Flash but that would require enabling Flash, so no.

      2-year-old Lenovo Thinkpad laptop, 1920x1080 display, Core i7 @ 2.5GHz, Windows 7, IE11.
      Is your computer from a decade ago or something?MS has put a lot of effort into IE performance, but it's not supposed to be a factor of 12x-16x better than Firefox!

      --
      There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
    2. Re:SWF: 20 fps; SVG: 5 fps by tepples · · Score: 1

      Uh... what the hell is wrong with your laptop?

      Other than that it has an Atom N450 CPU?

      Is your computer from a decade ago or something?

      I bought it new in March 2010. The only laptops they had back then with a 10.1" screen had Atom CPUs.

      Thinking Firefox 28 is at fault, I tried it in Chromium on the same laptop. HTML clocked in at 5-6 fps, Canvas at 18-22 fps, and SVG at 15 fps. Perhaps Firefox is a slow piece of you know what.

      Thinking my machine is at fault, I went and tried it again in Chrome on a newer machine, a first-generation Nexus 7 tablet from mid-2012. Canvas and SVG tied at 16-20 fps, and HTML reported the same number in the corner but appeared to be lying because it looked far jerkier.

    3. Re:SWF: 20 fps; SVG: 5 fps by baffled · · Score: 1

      150-160 HTML, 120 canvas, 200-ish SVG.

      1920x1080, Pentium G3420 $70 CPU, Ubuntu 14.04, Chrome. I am surprised how much better my numbers are.

    4. Re:SWF: 20 fps; SVG: 5 fps by tepples · · Score: 1

      When I bought my laptop in 2010, subnotebooks used Atom CPUs. I think this was for two reasons: cost, and the CPUs designed for bigger laptops used too much power at idle.

  19. Video is inefficient by tepples · · Score: 1

    The output we see isn't in flash, it's just video.

    And in an era of bandwidth caps not keeping up with advances in monitor resolutions, this transmission as video is an order of magnitude inefficient in bitrate. Why is it beneficial in the long run to just accept this gross inefficiency?

    1. Re:Video is inefficient by ArcadeMan · · Score: 1

      Unless you can force all the companies who manufacture video decoding ICs to also add Flash rendering capabilities to their chips, your argument is pointless.

  20. Read your own link by raymorris · · Score: 1

    The link you posted says it's fallacious to point out that SOMETHING is worse, that the thing under discussion isn't the WORST choice. That's a mistake because we should be looking for the BEST choice, not merely avoiding the worst one.

    GP is arguing that Flash is the BEST choice in some scenarios, that ALL options are worse. That's fundamentally different from arguing that SOME options are worse. GP's argument is perfectly logical. Whether or not all of the alternatives actually ARE worse is another question, of course.

    I CAN program in Flash, but I've never CHOSEN Flash when the choice was mine.

  21. Charging extra for mobile by tepples · · Score: 1

    And websites offering video are charging extra for access from phones and tablets. Hulu requires a subscription for mobile access, as does video on The Escapist.

  22. Vector animations by tepples · · Score: 1

    If the content owner only publishes content in a SWF, it is not worth my bother to look at it.

    Animutations and other vector animations are usually much smaller in their original SWF than they are when transcoded to MPEG-4 or WebM video. In this era of monthly caps, rendering to pixels can't always compete with the bandwidth efficiency of vectors. You're not going to get, say, "We Drink Ritalin" by Robinson Wilburn (parody fan video for the song "Hot Limit" by John Desire, which incidentally introduced me to DDR) as small in MP4 as it is in SWF, probably not even with H.266 when it does exist.

    Okay, I can't view video clips in Facebook, but if it is an embedded youtube video, usually I can view it just fine by going to youtube's website.

    If the video has ads or claims, you'll likely get "Please install Adobe Flash Player to watch this video" with a desktop UA or "The content owner has not made this video available on mobile" with a mobile UA.

    1. Re:Vector animations by LDAPMAN · · Score: 1

      You do realize HTML5 supports vector animation?

    2. Re:Vector animations by LDAPMAN · · Score: 1

      Forgot a link...just some examples: http://creativedroplets.com/ht...

      DIE FLASH DIE!!!

  23. 2012 was, when most new CPUs ran Linux by raymorris · · Score: 1

    Starting in April 2012, most new systems had Linux pre-installed. Not coincidentally, that same year most new systems were pocket sized.

  24. How better than WebM? by tepples · · Score: 1

    Do common video decoding ICs even support WebM yet? Transmit as WebM or transmit as SWF, either way the CPU will be involved in decoding it.

    1. Re:How better than WebM? by tepples · · Score: 1

      Thanks; I wasn't aware that those existed. But among mass-market smartphones and tablets shipped in the past three years, how common are the SOCs with "Yes" in the "VP8 Decode" column? And what would keep a third-party SWF player from using OpenGL ES acceleration to render the vectors of an SWF?

  25. Re:And this is why (rant) by cbhacking · · Score: 1

    Right, because there's never critical vulnerabilities in widely-used open source software. I mean, anything as sensitive as, say, an SSL library would obviously be thoroughly tested and code reviewed to prevent any kind of trivially exploitable error that looks like something a CS freshman student might make. Thank goodness neither OpenSSL nor GnuTLS are required by any common free software, for example...

    --
    There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
  26. Edge Animate expires by tepples · · Score: 1

    HTML5 vector animation has three drawbacks: Speed The Flash version of this Flash vs. SVG benchmark runs at 22-23 fps on a laptop with an Atom N450 CPU, which is nearly four times the speed of SVG (6 fps) in Firefox 29 on the same laptop. Set quality to low and it shoots up to 31-32 fps. Tools The page you linked on creativedroplets.com mentions Edge Animate. But second-hand copies of old versions of Flash are widely available, while Edge Animate is available only by subscription. Content A lot of authors of existing SWF vector animations, such as popular videos on Newgrounds, Dagobah, and Albino Blacksheep, either are no longer contactable or lack the time, tools, and inclination to convert their old productions to HTML5.

    1. Re:Edge Animate expires by LDAPMAN · · Score: 1

      I suggest you get a new laptop. I get 120fps on the 1000 object version at full quality. The argument that there are more tools for an old technology than a new one is missing the point. The tools will come and there are many ways to create SVG.

    2. Re:Edge Animate expires by LDAPMAN · · Score: 1

      At 4000 objects Flash topped out at 30fps. I get over 60 for SVG and canvas.

  27. Re:Doesn't affect... by gmhowell · · Score: 1

    ...Shumway. Sometimes it has an advantage to run a VM in a VM.

    So you can game while you game?

    --
    Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
  28. abobe crapware or gnash by dltaylor · · Score: 1

    The summary doesn't say.

  29. Because nothing does a good job replacing it yet by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 2

    There is a non-trivial demand for highly interactive stuff on the web. You may not be interested in that, but many people are and thus many developers are. Well, only Flash really does anything approaching a competent job of that. If you want to make something like a game, that runs on all the major browsers and all the major platforms, Flash can do that. Anything else, it is a crap shoot.

    For example I remember when the HTML5 Angry Birds came out. Ok, interesting, I'd like to see that. In Chrome, it works more or less flawlessly, since that's what it was made for. It did seem to randomly 'asplode a couple times though. Firefox was nice and stable and everything seemed to work, but slow. The framerate was noticeably jerky. IE worked solid and was smooth as could be... but had no sound.

    This is all on Windows, never mind how things would be on OS-X. Not precisely something that gives a lot of confidence in HTML5.

    Also there is the simple matter of time. You might be able to make an HTML5 game work as well as a Flash one, if you spent enough time making a port for each browser on each platform. Thing is, that takes a lot of developer time and thus money. You target Flash just once, and it works.

    Also the tools for Flash can make development, particularly the graphics and animation part, quite easy.

    So if something comes along that does a good job replacing it, something that is well supported by browsers and you really can do easy development in, then sure I expect people will start using it.

  30. Ship now by tepples · · Score: 1

    I suggest you get a new laptop.

    Except for the Surface Pro, other 10" products I've seen are also Atom based. Or has Atom improved dramatically in the past four years?

    The tools will come

    That doesn't help if you want to deliver something now, not years later after the tools have come.

  31. Bigger PC by tepples · · Score: 1

    Your quote of a dollar amount for the processor alone implies it's a home-built desktop PC. My numbers would probably be much better too on a full-size desktop PC as opposed to a subnotebook or tablet.

  32. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion