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Did the Ignition Key Just Die?
cartechboy (2660665) writes "Do you still use a metal key to start your vehicle? We already knew this was old tech at this point, but now it might fully be killed off. In the wake of General Motors' 'Switchgate' fiasco, we've heard the CEO tell a Congressional committee that the recall may force GM to ditch ignition keys altogether in favor of push-button systems. If this became a reality, it would end decades of complaints from customers. Bloomberg approximates at least 18,000 complaints have been filed since NHTSA was formed in 1970, peaking at more than 2,000 in the year 2000. Those complaints resulted in roughly 21 million vehicles being recalled. The push-button ignition isn't perfect, but we know electrical trumps mechanical more often than not. Are you ready for an era where the ignition key doesn't exist?"
Are you ready for an era where the ignition key doesn't exist?
If you aren't ready for advancements in technology then what are you doing reading this website?
Seriously.
My throttle is stuck open and I don't know how to shut the engine down!
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
With a key, you switch it to 1 and can run accessories. You switch it to 2 and the ignition computer is powered. Switch and hold it to 3 and you crank. You decide exactly how to start your engine.
With the newer systems, you just push the button and it decides what to do. You lose the control. What if you want to crank for a while because it won't start? What if you want to switch it to position 2 and push-start a manual transmission car? You can't.
I like the standard keys. And really, just because one manufacturer happened to use a defective part, we lose them? Key switches have been around for decade and are reliable. Just fix the reliability issue in that one model and that's it.
Here's what I'm thinking:
1. We're trading traditional car-stealing techniques for hacking techniques.
2. Now instead of the otherwise mature, reliable technology of a mechanical ignition lock system, we're going to have to worry about zero-day vulnerabilities in a complex system?
3. Another facet of vehicle security: What about the steering lock mechanism? If it's electrically actuated, then what's the point in even having it? It can theoretically be hacked like the rest of the car.
4. Another approach to hacking your way into stealing a car: Manufacturer 'back doors' into the system? I'm thinking there'd have to be some sort of 'manufacturer access' backdoor built into the system, which once uncovered will just make it easier to steal a car.
I'm sure I'll think of more later on but that's what I've got off the top of my head.
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
Are you ready for an era where the ignition key doesn't exist?"
A physical key still unlocks the doors when the car's battery has died. A physical key doesn't itself have a battery to die, leaving you stranded in a blizzard in the middle of nowhere after you stop to pee on the side of the road. And perhaps most importantly - A physical key doesn't cost some $300 to replace when you drop it in a puddle. If that particular scam doesn't solely account for the auto industry's desire to move to keyless fobs, I have a bridge for sale.
Those recalls were predominantly due to issues which arose as a direct result of companies cutting cost by deliberately making parts weaker, cheaper, less durable, etc. It is simply naive to suggest that these same companies will apply more care or consideration when designing all electrical systems.
All a switch to electronic system will do is replace infrequent mechanical recalls with increasingly more frequent updates of shoddy on-board software. Eventually, drivers will be expected to download and install car software patches themselves. Once again, company costs will be externalized at the expense of quality.
May the Maths Be with you!
So these key fobs that are used on push-button ignitions have their own issues. RF interference is one. A guy I work with had his car towed because he couldn't start his car, had a module replaced on car, only to find out that it was RF interference that was the culprit.
I can mend the break of day, heal a broken heart, and provide temporary relief to nymphomaniacs.
I have one car with an ignition key and two cars with start buttons.
Every time I get in the car with the key it goes something like this:
Sit down
Reach for start button
Curse under my breath
Dig through pocket for key
Start vehicle with key.
I'd love to be done with mechanical keys.
In a newer engine, the computer controls all aspects of starting and running; timing, spark intensity, fuel quantity, mixture, etc. Holding down the key and cranking is no longer everything needed to start a cranky engine.
John
What if you want to switch it to position 2 and push-start a manual transmission car?
... then you push the button twice without your foot on the brake. It goes to run mode just like the second detent of a traditional key. Pressing once goes to accessory mode. More presses simply cycles between accessory...run...off.
FYI, you can still switch it to the position to run the accessories and not start he engine. Just don't step on the brake, then press the button once, and you'll get just the radio. Press it again (while again not stepping on the brake) and you'll get the rest of the accessories/instruments, and a third press (again, without the brake pedal depressed) and everything turns off. Simple.
Now, my car is an automatic, so I have not tried the roll/start on a manual transmission with a push button ignition, but it seems to me that with all of the accessories and instrumentation turned on, I don't see why it wouldn't work. And, as far as your point of needing to crank it for a while, if that's the case, there are issues that need repairing, so it's not as if you're being deprived of some designed, intended function of the vehicle.
Manual transmission cars are getting harder and harder to find. It makes me sad - I will always pick a manual if I have the option to do so.
#DeleteChrome
SAAB dealt with this issue mechanically decades ago. Mechanical key in the center, where the handbrake is located. No stress on the mechanical switch due to heavy key rings.
Worked very well, unless they had (have) a patent on it, seems like an easier more reliable fix.
Those complaints resulted in roughly 21 million vehicles being recalled.
How many of these recalls would not have happened if the manufacturers listened to their own internal reports saying that the parts had problems? We can subtract GM's most recent 2.6 million for a start.
Nice try, trying to blame the key type.
Instead of getting a replacement key for $12.99 now it will cost you $350 for a second key.
The Govt needs to step in and tell them that the MAX cost to customers can not exceed $40 for the transponder and PROGRAMMING fees together.
Honda rips people off with their keyless system $100 programming fee for their tech to spend less than 5 minutes with the tool plugged into my odb-II port.
GM wants in on the rip off action now as well.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
In a newer engine, the computer controls all aspects of starting and running; timing, spark intensity, fuel quantity, mixture, etc. Holding down the key and cranking is no longer everything needed to start a cranky engine.
No, but sometimes it is an effective and useful diagnostic tool.
Oh, right, we're not supposed to work on our own vehicles anymore, how silly of me to forget.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Same here!
With an ignition key, I know that I'm in control. If I step out of the car, I'd normally remove the keys (unless there were other passengers already) and do whatever I have to do before returning, knowing that my car would still be there. With the remote, even if I stepped out w/ it, leaving the car unlocked, anybody can just get in and drive some distance. Maybe he won't get far, but the damage would have been done.
In Europe, most cars use a key card system, if you remove the card from it's slot, the car won't drive.
I like the standard keys. And really, just because one manufacturer happened to use a defective part, we lose them? Key switches have been around for decade and are reliable. Just fix the reliability issue in that one model and that's it.
It isn't one manufacturer. There have been over 20 million recalled vehicles due to ignition switch problems, from basically every manufacturer, over the last 30 years.
That doesn't qualify as "reliable" in my book.
Right, because it's not like there's ever been, nor ever will be an issue with push-button ignitions that may incite a recall of millions of vehicles, right?
Wrong.
FYI, contrary to the summary's baseless contention, "Electrical" is not always greater than "mechanical." Otherwise, parking brakes wouldn't still be engaged with steel cables.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
You don't want a car completely reliant on the electrical system. Batteries freeze, cars rust (killing the ground), cars wind up flooded or driven into a lake, weather can produce unseen effects.
I for one, do not want to be in car like that after the electrical system has failed, and you can't even open the damn doors without electricity.
I want a car that I can push start if needed. In fact, the less "electrical" anything there is in a car, the less there is to go wrong.
When you go to a car show, I see a lot of cars from the 50's and 60's -- and you know what I'll see 30 years from now -- the same cars! You won't see "modern cars" sold as classics 30 years from now because once the computer in those cars dies, the car is a paperweight. Nothing works. The engine isn't even capable of running without all those sensors and computers.
I'm rebuilding a '69 beetle right now, and I'll tell you that there's a certain comfort in knowing that I know the entire car, bumper to bumper, there's no mystery about how it operates, and I can fix any piece of it, myself, with common hand tools.
If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
# "The unavoidable price of reliability is simplicity"
-- C.A.R. Hoare
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
The only reasons to buy a manual are cost and 'fun to drive', and once you reach say 80% of a model being sold with automatics the cost equation actually starts to swing towards the automatic, as far as fun to drive, a properly done DSG is plenty fun to drive =)
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
This line of thinking – mechanical keys are not perfect and sometimes don't work properly, therefore we must replace them with something else – fails to take into consideration that whatever we replace it with will also not be perfect and will also sometimes not work properly, especially in new and unexpected ways that we are not prepared for. Fact is, the mechanical ignition key is a pretty well-debugged piece of technology. It isn't fundamentally broken, and doesn't need to be "fixed" by throwing it out and hastily replacing it with something else, especially something without a century of usage behind it.
I'll be honest: I'm an old-fashioned person who liked having the ability to shut off a computer by physically opening the circuit that powered it (i.e. flipping a big crimson switch). As a tech, I get frustrated with equipment that has a "power button" that really only serves to put the device in low-power standby mode, such that turning it "off" and back "on" doesn't reinitialize it (requiring me to instead pull the power cable from the wall ... which only works if it doesn't have a battery). The "open the pod bay doors, Hal" approach doesn't give me warm fuzzies, mostly due to experience with the real world where new technology routinely fails to live up to the naïve expectations of the young and/or credulous.
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Electrical trumps mechanical? Electrical systems ARE mechanical systems. The problem wasn't the failure of the key, the problem was that if the ignition system turned off, all of the cars safety system would fail. That's an inherent design flaw that would be dangerous irrelevant of how you started the car. What happens if the alternator failed and the battery died on the interstate? The same damned thing. The car should still be operable without electricity. That's your problem.
A couple of years ago, Darren Kitchen of Hak5 interviewed Amal Graafstra, who had an RFID implanted in his hand for accessing his office building and starting his motorcycle. Neat stuff.
Can't remember if it was this episode or this one, but here's a clip of the system in action.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
I am so ready for all new vehicles with fob starters to come with three fob sets, by default.
Are you kidding? Hell, I'm having a hard enough time figuring out how to use the three shells...
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
It does sometimes take a few extra cranks to get a gasoline engine to start, even if it is tuned and in working order.
The computer that controls ignition knows that too.
"Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
Actual evidence disagrees with you. Those things that have made it possible to not know as much about what your car is doing, which you say have contributed to a lack of safety, have been a contributor to an impressive decline in automotive deaths and injuries.
That's not to say that things couldn't be better than they are... but you're full of it if you think the situation was better when cars were less complicated.
That's correct, but the same system also has lots of other complex behaviours which could cause confusion.
How do you turn the car off but leave the radio on for the passenger - e.g. at a gas station?
A: Come to a stop. Put the transmission in neutral. Press start/stop button. Engine turns off, and the power system is switched to "accessories" mode.
Q: How do you turn the power off completely?
A: Put transmission in Park. Then press start/stop button
Q: What if I want to turn the power off and leave the car in neutral e.g. for maintenance?
A: You have to switch into Park first. The press start/stop. Then use the transmission shift override to select Neutral.
Q: How do you turn the car off in an emergency - e.g. stuck accelerator pedal?
A: You can't just press start/stop, as the vehicle speed sensor inhibits the button, so you can't turn off the ignition whilie the vehicle is moving. This isn't even in the manual. However, pressing and holding start/stop for 10 seconds will cause the ignition to turn off completely. This is a surprisingly long time in an emergency. In fact, in several "unintended acceleration" episodes, the drivers said they tried to turn off the push-button ignition, but couldn't turn it off.
Q: How do you give a prolonged crank, if the car fails to start (e.g. poor fuel, or cold weather)?
A: You have to let the computer attempt 3 failed starts. After that, the behaviour of the start/stop sequence changes. After the 3rd attempt, a momentary push of the button, will make the computer crank the engine for up to 30 seconds, for as long as the brake pedal remains depressed.
The traditional key in ignition device is mixing two distinct functions: authentication and mode selection.
The link between the two and the mechanics of the failed device contributed to the problem. Wireless electronic proximity isn't necessary.
What is necessary is a simple reliable device for authentication, a key which is turned to allow other functions to operate. For instance, keys used for industrial or military controls for this purpose. They look like ordinary keys, not the large vehicle keys now common.
Then the selection of ignition mode is entirely separate, and turning to "off" or "accessory" which disengages hydraulics and safety systems while the vehicle is in motion should be disallowed.
... and how easily it is to do incorrectly. Mechanical doesn't have to mean "bad."
I was driving down the street and noticed something odd about the car in front of me... the keys were dangling off the back of the trunk! We came to a red-light and I hopped out and tapped on the woman's window.
She was rather startled but I put on my most innocent face and she rolled down her window a little and I said "Miss, sorry for startling you but your car keys are dangling off the back of your trunk!". She did a double take and then realized that it was true! Her button ignition switch had worked because the keys just happened to be 'close enough'.
I said "wait a moment, I'll get them for you now" (I didn't want to get them first because she might have driven off and would then not have had her keys at all). I went to the back, got the keys, and handed them to her through the window. She smiled and said thank you.
I went back to my car and managed to get my seatbelt back on and ready to go before the light turned green again.
True story :-)
-Matt
With the Tesla you simply walk up to the vehicle with the proximity fob. The car unlocks and you get in and drive. No key. No button. The On/Off switch is the lever on the steering wheel column you use to put it in drive, reverse and park. When you get out of the car and walk away, it locks itself. You can also use a mobile app to lock/unlock, warm up car etc...
After a year the only problem we ever have is leaving the engine running and walking away from our gasoline car because you get so used to how the Tesla works.
Greed is the root of all evil.
I am 40 something and I remember the reliability of old cars was crap. If it didn't run out of power there were a hundred other reasons it wouldn't start it the body hadn't already completely rusted off. I will take a new car over an old one any day.
love is just extroverted narcissism