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Virgin Galactic Passengers May Just Miss Going into Space

DavidGilbert99 (2607235) writes "According to the customer contract those signing up for a $240,000 flight on Virgin Galactic's spaceship the company will bring you 'at least 50 miles' above sea level. The problem is that the internationally accepted boundary for outer space is 62 miles above sea level — known as the Karman Line. Virgin is trying to get around the issue by claiming it is using a definition of space used by NASA — in the 1960s."

35 of 203 comments (clear)

  1. Does it really matter? by Orestesx · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Presumably they are looking to see the curvature of the earth and the stars set against a black background. If I saw that, I'd feel like I went to space, even if technically I did not.

    1. Re:Does it really matter? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Dude, for the amount of money paid, I would sure want the whole 62 miles, as well as being serviced orally by an angel.

    2. Re:Does it really matter? by IDreamInCode · · Score: 3, Interesting

      As long as I was weightless, I wouldn't care.

    3. Re:Does it really matter? by houstonbofh · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Dude, for the amount of money paid, I would sure want the whole 62 miles, as well as being serviced orally by an angel.

      For the amount of money paid, I would have read the fucking contract! This is less fuzzy than "unlimited" plans, and look how that turned out?

    4. Re:Does it really matter? by RockClimbingFool · · Score: 4, Interesting

      If all you want is to be weightless, the Vomit Comet is a much cheaper alternative for about $5,000.

      If you are paying the $245,000 premium, I would think they would want to get the official astronaut status of 62 miles.

    5. Re:Does it really matter? by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 2

      For the amount of money paid, I would have read the fucking contract!

      People who can afford that kind of money for a joy flight won't really care about any scientific definitions of space. It's all just about having flown on the Virgin Galactic bragging rights. Like, being hauled up Mt. Everest by Sherpas, or a helicopter flight to Machu Picchu.

      --
      Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
    6. Re:Does it really matter? by CanHasDIY · · Score: 2

      For the amount of money paid, I would have read the fucking contract!

      People who can afford that kind of money for a joy flight won't really care about any scientific definitions of space. It's all just about having flown on the Virgin Galactic bragging rights. Like, being hauled up Mt. Everest by Sherpas, or a helicopter flight to Machu Picchu.

      Besides, look at the bright side - if you know any of the people who signed up, you can enjoy a bit of smug intellectual superiority as you correct them when they're droning on in the bar for the umpteenth time about their trip to "space."

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    7. Re:Does it really matter? by CanHasDIY · · Score: 5, Funny

      You can be weightless for about $150/hr for plane and pilot. Granted it won't be in more than about 20 second incriments, but my kid and his friends love it: "Daddy make the plane do the weightless thing again" alternates with 'are we there yet".

      The looks you get when filing a parabolic flight plan must be priceless.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    8. Re:Does it really matter? by jcgam69 · · Score: 2

      If you go this route make sure the plane you rent doesn't use a gravity fed fuel system, otherwise you could have a short flight ending in a field.

    9. Re:Does it really matter? by Guppy06 · · Score: 2

      Terminal velocity and ballistic freefall are mutually exclusive.

    10. Re:Does it really matter? by Wycliffe · · Score: 2

      It's actually 250k for 5 people so $50k per person. Although this is ALOT of money it's not outside
      the possibility for the average software developer if they are willing to save for a few years.

      And 20 seconds at a time is not really the same experience. You're basically on a roller coaster at that point.
      There is no comparison between that and actually being able to eat a meal, do acrobatics, or have sex
      in no gravity.

    11. Re:Does it really matter? by Wycliffe · · Score: 2

      I misread. It's 250k for 6 people so 41k per person. Still quite a bit more than an average vacation but
      less than some people spend on a car.

    12. Re:Does it really matter? by Ksevio · · Score: 3, Funny

      Flight plans don't typically list the altitude for every point in the flight. ATC might have some questions though seeing the altitude on the radar if he's not flying VFR.

    13. Re:Does it really matter? by Moike · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The 62-mile internationally-accepted boundary is a completely arbitrary artifact of the metric system. It happens to be a nice, even 100 kilometers. There is nothing physically distinct about hitting 100 kilometers that makes it become "space". NASA previously defined it as 50 miles because they also wanted a nice even-sounding number and they were using imperial units to express it. I agree that if I got into a rocket, blasted off, saw the curvature of the earth and the blackness of space (and felt weightlessness for an appreciable period of time), I would say I have been to space, whether it meets the internationally-accepted definition or not.

    14. Re:Does it really matter? by CanHasDIY · · Score: 2

      I figured as much (even went so far as to do a little research), but couldn't let a little thing like reality get in the way of a laugh.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    15. Re:Does it really matter? by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 2

      Um... not to nitpick, but Junta's "brief period of time" is clearly a caveat to the first sentence, not the one you quoted. That (the second sentence) is a generalisation of the first example, which is clearly meant to refer to a situation such as jumping off a wall on Earth.

      --
      systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
    16. Re:Does it really matter? by gstoddart · · Score: 2

      I misread. It's 250k for 6 people so 41k per person.

      Hmmm ... so, why then does TFA say:

      So far more than 700 people have signed up for a trip on SpaceShipTwo, each paying $240,000 up front to reserve their seat.

      It sure doesn't read like they're paying $41K/person. It reads like they're paying $240K/person.

      I'm not sure where you're drawing your conclusion from.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    17. Re:Does it really matter? by ArcadeMan · · Score: 2

      Even if it was 240 000$USD divided by 700 people (342.85$USD), I still wouldn't go. You can get a pretty decent mid-range GPU at that price!

    18. Re:Does it really matter? by Eevee · · Score: 4, Informative

      The Karman line is only arbitrary in so far as they picked a nice even number in the metric system which is pretty damn close to the point where winged flight isn't possible without being at orbital speed. If it had been originally defined in the US customary units, it still would have been in the area of 62 miles up.

    19. Re:Does it really matter? by dotancohen · · Score: 2

      Walker got the X-15 up above the Karman Line twice.

      --
      It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
  2. Well, that's.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Virgin is trying to get around the issue by claiming it is using a definition of space used by NASA — in the 1960s."

    Well, that's gay. Before you think I'm a homophobe, I'm using a definition used in the 1960s.

  3. What a complete waste of time and money by burisch_research · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This is just insane. Going to 50 miles, or 62 miles, or even 200 miles straight up is utterly pointless. It does not advance us at all. It's a gimmick for people with too much money and not enough brain cells. Yes, it might be 'space' (for a few minutes) -- but so what?! This is really old tech. The USA did this in the 50s.

    Getting to orbit is a lot harder, yes; but that's an actual achievement, instead of a publicity stunt. You can actually do useful stuff once you're in orbit. You can't do that from a jumped-up fairground ride.

    I expect this whole fiasco will quietly fade from the public eye, once the backers realize that they've invested heavily in a pig in a poke. If they are smart, they won't plough (plow, for Americans) any more cash into this travesty.

    --
    char*f="char*f=%c%s%c;main(){printf(f,34,f,34);}";main(){printf(f,34,f,34);}
    1. Re:What a complete waste of time and money by neilo_1701D · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Back in the late '70s and early '80s, there were these expensive gimmicks called "personal computers". They didn't do much at all. Heck; some needed you to flip a whole bunch of switches before they could load a paper tape!

      Then there was this uber-expensing thing from some fruit company. Used a gadget called a "mouse", and you used the mouse to move boxes around on the screen. Cost $10,000 1983 dollars; back when the average income was just under $21,000.

      --

      Just because something is gimmicky today doesn't mean it won't become useful tomorrow. It does advance us, in terms of building an infrastructure that allows these flights to happen at all, in terms of learning to build space-rated hardware within a commercial cost basis. Then the price comes down, the $/lb comes down (over time) and we have a civilian launch system.

    2. Re:What a complete waste of time and money by NotDrWho · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Just because something is gimmicky today doesn't mean it won't become useful tomorrow.

      Conversely, just because some gimmicky things in the past have become useful today doesn't mean that everything considered gimmicky today will become useful in the future. Two words for you on that: flying cars.

      Being open-minded to technology doesn't mean you have to accept EVERY technology or technological idea as practical.

      --
      SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
    3. Re:What a complete waste of time and money by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 2

      This is just insane. Going to 50 miles, or 62 miles, or even 200 miles straight up is utterly pointless.

      Hey, guess what? Other people aren't you!

      It does not advance us at all.

      Why does it have to?

      It's a gimmick for people with too much money and not enough brain cells.

      Some people would say the same about watching football games, going to watch a funny movie, or posting on Slashdot.

      --
      systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
  4. Cue Maxwell Smart... by QRDeNameland · · Score: 2
    --
    Momentarily, the need for the construction of new light will no longer exist.
  5. We know... by Virtucon · · Score: 2

    We know you have a choice in Space Tourist Travel services and it looks like you picked the wrong one.

    --
    Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
  6. Re:Space is more about energy than location by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    So if I'm somewhere between the Sun and Alpha Centauri, but I happen to have no velocity with respect to the Earth, then I'm not in space?

  7. Re:Space is more about energy than location by leonardluen · · Score: 2

    i don't know, but you are certainly breaking several laws of physics to do it.

  8. Not 62 miles by YoungManKlaus · · Score: 4, Insightful

    100km you imperial-unit-morons!

    1. Re:Not 62 miles by ArcadeMan · · Score: 2

      100 km, you missing-space moron!

  9. Re:Pedantic at best by ArcadeMan · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It seems you are confused. Anyway, good operating systems report file sizes correctly so there's no discrepancies to be concerned about.

  10. Bryan's Law of Minimums by holophrastic · · Score: 2

    Mr. Hertz is "credited" with once-per-second. A great discovery.
    Mr. Karman is "credited" with 100km above sea level. Another innovation.
    Mr. Celsius is "credited" with a scale based on 0 to 100 for ice to steam. Yup, that's some mighty hard thinking.
    Mr. Farenheit is "credited" with a scale based on 0 to 100 for cold to hot, but he screwed up and got a scale based on 0 to 97.6 -- what a retard.

    With all of these super-smart inventions, I'd better claim mine now.

    Bryan's Law of Minimums: there is a minimum countable quantity of any possessable item; it is typically one (1).
    For example, it is impossible to *have* fewer than 1 passport office, without having nothing at all. You also cannot *have* fewer than 1 friend, 1 piece of apple, or 1 desk.

    That's mine. No one else may have it. From now on, every time any scientist counts to 1 as the "necessary first" of a quantity, they must use my unit of measure -- "that given city must have a Bryan passport office", "only the Bryan apple a day keeps the doctor away" (since the second apple does absolutely nothing more), and "my BFF is my Bryan Friend Forever".

    There. I can invent the number 1 too you know -- and my invented "1" has a philosophical level to it, so there!

    1. Re:Bryan's Law of Minimums by AmiMoJo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You also cannot *have* fewer than 1 friend, 1 piece of apple, or 1 desk.

      You could share a desk, thus having half of it for your own use.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  11. What did everyone expect? by pslytely+psycho · · Score: 2

    That the first space tourism would be an orbital hotel? The first steps were always going to be something like this.

    As to not advancing anything, well, lets see. A 100% re-usable sub orbital, relatively spacious passenger craft with the ability to be refueled and re-launched (in theory, at least) in hours. A totally unique liftoff system. A totally unique re-entry (yes, I know, NOT from orbital speed but a pretty damn fine piece of tech). As I understand the rocket is the first solid fuel rocket made to be shut down and re-started.

    Why are we so negative about the very first steps to the commercialization of space? Something most of us dreamed of all our lives while reading the sci-fi that was so dear to us? Is it just because it's a rich playboy showman doing it?

    We didn't get flying cars, and yeah, it ain't a space hotel, but why all the hate?

    --
    Donald Trump, on a crusade to make Nixon look respectable