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US College Students Still Aren't All That Interested In Computer Science

Posted by samzenpus on from the you-fail-it dept.

itwbennett (1594911) writes "Despite the hot job market and competitive salaries, the share of Computer Science degrees as a percentage of BA degrees has remained essentially unchanged since 1981, according to data from the National Center for Educational Statistics' Digest of Educational Statistics. If history is any indication, it will take a cultural phenomenon to shift the percentage higher: Blogger Phil Johnson point out that there were 'two distinct peaks, one in 1985 (4.4% of U.S. college degrees) and one in 2002 (4.42%). These would represent big increases for the classes entering school in 1981 and 1998 respectively. The former year corresponds to the beginning of computers coming into the home and the release of things like MS-DOS 1.0, all of which may have increased interest in programming. The latter year was during the dot com bubble, which, no doubt, also boosted interest.'"

50 of 306 comments (clear)

  1. Computer Science is not IT and at times not code by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Computer Science is not IT and at some time / schools not even coding, web site work and more.

  2. I have tried by EmperorOfCanada · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I have tried to teach a handful of people how to program. Generally it either takes or it doesn't. Some people would lose their minds at how hard it can be to get some new library to compile and I think they could see that coming. The whole concept that a single wrong letter could mean the difference between success and 200 error messages just made them ask, "You do this all day?"

    I don't think that it is that these people can't learn but it is simply something that is completely not part of their brain's make-up. Many people like things like writing reports where you are making a generalize persuasive argument which will be backed up with meeting and maybe even some time on a golf course; things that generally drive most programmers insane.

    1. Re:I have tried by InsultsByThePound · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Many people like things like writing reports where you are making a generalize persuasive argument which will be backed up with meeting and maybe even some time on a golf course; things that generally drive most programmers insane.

      Most antisocial programmers I have seen are stuck on bullshit jobs after 40 because they can't take shove their OCD aside but at the same time aren't smart enough to realize "No, I'm not a genius like Carmack who can afford to act 100x as OCD as me without repercussion."

      Then they steam and stew while less able programmers get promoted, because they can hob nob with a bunch of managers on the back nine without missing a beat.

    2. Re:I have tried by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      So your advice is to suck knob. Go fuck yourself. Fuck you and the jock closet you crawled out of, MBA faggot.

      Good job on proving his point.

    3. Re:I have tried by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Some people would lose their minds at how hard it can be to get some new library to compile and I think they could see that coming.

      Alan Kay and John McCarthy would lose their minds had they tried to compile C libraries. Fortunately, they were also very fond of removing accidental complexity from programming. The one of the crappy tool kind for sure, but not only that.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    4. Re:I have tried by c · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The whole concept that a single wrong letter could mean the difference between success and 200 error messages just made them ask, "You do this all day?"

      shrug Some people just can't hack jobs where attention to detail matters. A missing semi-colon in software isn't much less messier than an accountant misplacing a decimal, or a millwright putting an extra turn on a depth wheel, or a carpenter cutting an inch short.

      --
      Log in or piss off.
  3. Not terribly surprising by O('_')O_Bush · · Score: 3, Insightful

    CS degrees aren't the only game in town. Lots of programmers come from C.E., E.E., or Math degrees. I would say the number of programmers, in total, are going up, just that CS degrees are less prestigious or desirable.

    --
    while(1) attack(People.Sandy);
    1. Re:Not terribly surprising by Thantik · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well, given that CS degrees lately consist of having students reimplement all the sorting methods learned since the 1970s, I can certainly understand why CS degrees are less desirable. I know many college kids who took up CS classes, who thought they were going to learn to code, learn awesome things, and it turned out to have much less to do with computers, and much more to do with general math/logic.

    2. Re:Not terribly surprising by DutchUncle · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That's part of the problem. Architecture is not piling bricks and nailing boards, it's physics and math. Automotive engineering isn't driving cool cars, it's *designing* cool cars. And most of the crap software around is precisely because people slapped some code together without design and engineering and planning and logic.

    3. Re:Not terribly surprising by pla · · Score: 5, Insightful

      So learning abstract calculus for 3 semesters, linear algebra, analysis / topology is not going to give you coding ability.

      I don't normally respond to ACs, but you have it so wrong, I couldn't resist.

      Linear algebra quite possibly counts as the single most useful pure-math course I took as part of my CS degree - With statistics as a close second. And of course, I don't even mention boolean algebra because it counts as just too obvious (protip: fully parenthesize everything, because no, that line doesn't do what you meant, and I have to fix it after they can your ass).

      No, HR doesn't understand that. HR doesn't understand a single goddamned word on your resume, so don't bother - Just make sure your cover letter mentions every buzzword in the job listing, and HR will pass you along to the actual hiring manager.

      And he will appreciate the difference between someone who did a static webpage as their capstone project vs someone who can chat about the meaning of the various ways to measure the average of a set of values (free hint: mean/median/mode ain't even a weak start to that conversation).

      Math isn't CS. But CS is math.

    4. Re:Not terribly surprising by Nemyst · · Score: 4, Interesting

      And I find that a lack of understanding of mathematics and logic (this is college level mathematics for CS we're talking about, so rather basic in the grand scheme of things) quite heavily correlates with an inability to structure code in a logical and mathematically sound way. Funny how that works, right?

      It's not that CS is less desirable and especially not less prestigious, it's that we had grossly inflated head counts in CS for a long time because degrees like software engineering didn't exist. Now that they do, the people who want to program and engineer code can go there, and they'll find that what they do is much more in line with what they expected to be doing. CS is reserved for a much more theoretical perspective, and I don't see that as making it the lesser discipline, quite the contrary in fact. It does however mean that a CS degree won't automatically net you a job at a big software company, since the skills learned in CS are at best parallel to what they require.

      A good CS student will however be able to adapt quite easily and can even outperform a comparable SE student because of their better theoretical knowledge.

    5. Re:Not terribly surprising by stalky14 · · Score: 2

      I'd upvote you if I could. Calculus (and to a lesser extent, C) was what got me booted out of CS. I was dumbfounded at the time because I was a programming and electronics fiend my whole teenagerhood and figured I could take on the major, no-sweat. After failing Calc-2 no less than 5 times, I should have gotten the hint. Fortunately, I had a friend who was a major in Computer Engineering Technology -- basically embedded controls design and programming. Hardware design and programming the hardware in (mostly) assembly. And best of all, NO full-on Calc! There was a special sequence of applied math courses specifically for majors in the *ET family. I did well there. If only I had swallowed my pride earlier and admitted that there were things I just sucked at.

      I learned later in life that my affinity for programming came from an aptitude for the synthesis of logic and _language_, not symbolism or numbers. My brain's just wired for one set of abstractions and not another. So be it.

      Computer technology is a commonplace enough realm now for there to be a whole array of majors catering to all aptitudes and interests. Using generic CS as a metric has lost its accuracy. In fact, I think it's a major best reserved for purists who will eventually seek a more specific graduate degree or those who are knowingly undecided and will change to something more specific midway.

    6. Re:Not terribly surprising by m00sh · · Score: 2

      CS degrees aren't the only game in town. Lots of programmers come from C.E., E.E., or Math degrees. I would say the number of programmers, in total, are going up, just that CS degrees are less prestigious or desirable.

      I think getting a CS degree to become programmer is overkill. It is like getting a Mechnical Engineering degree to be a mechanic.

      Anyway computer science degrees as it is right now is disappointing. There simply isn't four years worth of material to be learned. There is a lot of fluff that is half outdated and half not used anymore. There are courses on compiler design, OS design, computer graphics that is difficult it is more of using tools rather than learning some CS fundamental. Since a lot of programmers want to get the CS degree, most departments water down the degree and it is the middle of being a science degree and a technical degree. I would think that automata theory, information theory, machine learning would be essential CS but they are mostly relegated to graduate courses.

      One option that our local university does is to make computer science and electrical engineering into one single degree. There are lots of jobs out there that aren't pure software development but need to work closely with hardware.

      The other option is to let students get a minor in computer programming so they can study engineering, math, psychology, biology etc and still get lots of programming experience. Someone with a minor in computer programming or maybe a two year degree in computer programming should be looked as viable for working as a programmer.

    7. Re:Not terribly surprising by the+grace+of+R'hllor · · Score: 4, Funny

      I'm disinclined to have to disagree with whoever denies that you aren't incorrect.

      There is a more obvious way of writing the above sentence, and it should be employed. Even though none of the words are terribly complicated, the whole cannot be understood at a glance.

      The same goes for simpler things like operator precedence rules. Code should be understandable upon scanning it, unless it's black magic, heavily optimized code.

    8. Re:Not terribly surprising by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 2

      Agreed. In my experience, physics majors tend to be excellent programmers, better than many CS majors. Perhaps it's because they're mostly just smart a heck, and that matters more than having taken a bunch of CS courses.

      Engineering majors, in my experience, tend to be capable enough, but their code is hard to read / maintain. It's kind of like they're would-be CS majors who didn't take the CS courses.

    9. Re:Not terribly surprising by gander666 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Agreed. In my experience, physics majors tend to be excellent programmers, better than many CS majors. Perhaps it's because they're mostly just smart a heck, and that matters more than having taken a bunch of CS courses.

      As a physics degree holder, I would counter that. Yes, we are really good at algorithms, and the like, but without a lot of re-education we make terrible developers (I am not one, but I work with a dev group that has 3 PhD Physicists). They write cool code, but are fuck-all at doing error checking, bounds checking, and other mundane things that are important in production environments. Physicists would rather spend hours grooming their input data than have their code do some reality checks.

      --
      Suppose you were an idiot and suppose you were a member of Congress ... but I repeat myself. - Mark T
    10. Re:Not terribly surprising by david_thornley · · Score: 2

      I once considered memorizing the C operator precedence table, and decided it was a bad idea. I just make sure the expression works, by using more parentheses than necessary.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  4. BA Degrees? by Jmstuckman · · Score: 3, Informative

    I would expect Computer Science degrees as a percentage of BA degrees to be low, as almost all Computer Science degrees are of the BS (or Bachelors of Science, if you will) variety.

    The original article doesn't even have "BA" anywhere in it, though, so I have no idea where the submitter got that detail.

  5. Follow the money by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Let's be honest here, CS is not the easiest kind of degree you can get. And you also need to understand the crap you learn, sponge learning (soak up the crap, squeeze it out for the test, rinse with alcohol afterwards to get rid of the residue) doesn't cut it, this ain't law or business administration.

    And since it ain't law or BA, it's also not the prestige and/or money that could possibly make it attractive. What's left is these people who study it because they WANT to. It's not where you go when you don't know what to study but your parents want you to go to the university, and neither is it what you study when money is your only reason why you want a degree. CS is what you study when you want to study CS.

    And the number of people who're interested in computers, who have the mindset AND who have the required brains to make it doesn't change. Why should it?

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  6. Some of the reasons I think.. by Redbehrend · · Score: 2

    When I went to college I changed from Computer Science to Business. I feel there are a couple reasons of this and why it hasn't changed... First off it takes a certain person to program, as stated above some people will take it in like a sponge and some people will just never get it right. (I had that part down)
    Secondly the poor funding and options in this area for colleges, I think sports teams get more funding than Computer Science. (That's how it was at my school.) I learned more off the interweb than I ever did from the classes.
    Third Computer Science was very restricted on what schools, jobs, internships that I could get. It was so restrictive that I and others changed to business, math, etc... which opened up our opportunities tenfold.

    In my experience I had more opportunities going ANY other path other than CS. If it happened with me than I am sure it happened to 1,000 of other college kids.

  7. Where do you live? by rsilvergun · · Score: 4, Insightful

    my kid works like a dog. Christ, she works harder than I do. And her classmates are working even harder. 4 to 6 hours of homework a night isn't unheard of. It's fsckin' nuts.

    But you're right about them not being dumb. Just about everyone in IT except a few rock stars at google is here on an H1-B. Why in God's good name would anyone go into computer science?

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:Where do you live? by Kagato · · Score: 2

      If you have the programming chops you won't have a problem getting a job. Most of us are making enough money to put ourselves in the top 3% in terms of wages and benefits. The dumbest thing so-called globalization experts did was convince students that going into programming was worth while. Fact is we have such a deficit in programming that the H1-B shops now charge $100/hr for a developer (don't worry, the Indian guy working the gig only gets a pittance) because that's what supply and demand warrants. That's a high enough rate that a college graduate is fairly compelling.

      The problem is large companies have largely abandoned their college recruiting programs in the 2000s. I haven't worked in a shop that has had a programming intern in at least 8 years. The pipeline for programming talent has shifted to small and mid sized companies. The biggest issue is they lack the resources and will to invest in college hires.

      So to answer the question, getting into computer programming, dev ops, database administration are skills that pay very very well. I actually make most of my money off shops that got burned with offshore and H1B and want experienced developers. When they complain about cost I tell them to start up a college recruiting program.

    2. Re: Where do you live? by mrchaotica · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That's because there aren't that many Stanford grads, and the companies are too fucking stupid to open dev offices in places outside Silicon Valley where the rest of the good CS grads are (e.g. CMU/Pittsburgh, GA Tech/Atlanta, etc.)

      Valley companies see a "shortage" because the rest of us aren't idiots and therefore realize it's not in our interest to accept 300% higher cost of living for 20% higher pay.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

  8. Most software dev jobs do not need CompSci by Rinikusu · · Score: 3, Informative

    And with the ever present threat of off-shoring (to hire non-computer science degree holding Indians), why saddle yourself with mountains of debt just to get a degree that's basically worthless for the "real world," and getting in on the bubble2.0 money? I don't mean this to say that Computer Science is worthless, but that for the vast majority of monkey work out there, it can and is being done by folks who wouldn't know a design pattern from their bosses' assholes. This is mainly because the smart guys doing the real CompSci are building the tools that make it possible for that fucking idiot in the next office over to look like a real fucking genius because he could modify a report someone else wrote to change the text a different color.

    Yes yes, devs could potentially benefit from a real CompSci education. Sadly, most universities don't even teach that anymore; they've become vocational schools for the java/.net sweatshops out there. So, if you're going to be an easily replaceable cog, might as well go ahead and get in the workforce and get paid before the bubble bursts again.

    --
    If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
  9. Re:Computer Science is not IT and at times not cod by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Computer Science is not IT and at some time / schools not even coding, web site work and more.

    Upon reading this comment, I suddenly understood why my university required me to take all those painful semesters of writing courses.

  10. Why learn CS only to train your H1B replacement? by walterbyrd · · Score: 4, Interesting

    There is just no way to compete with 3rd world wages. If a job can't be offshored, it will be filled by a visa worker - unless the job requires a top secret clearance.

    I am doing contract work for IBM. There are barely any Americans left. And IBM is doing everything they can to eliminate what few US jobs still exist.

    I am amazed any Americans want to study CS.

  11. Why should any American kid bother? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    All the big computer-related firms in the US (Microsoft, Apple, Google, Facebook, etc) are working VERY hard to end the limits on importing high-tech workers from abroad and several of them are currently involved in a court battle that includes the tactics they were using to suppress the wages and benefits of all the computer-related workers in the US (As the "big guys" in the industry, THEY set the "industry standards" for wages and benefits, so their collusion to rip-off thier own workers actually hurt ALL computer people in the US).

    The Democrat party is full-on in support of the "immigration reform" these big businesses want (the Democrats currently control the White House and the Senate) and the so-called "Establishment" Republicans (the party bosses in D.C., many of their wealthy funders, the "money is EVERYTHING" people from the north-eastern region, and most of the long-time office holders) are also on-board for these "reforms" and are promising/threatening to do them late this year (the Republicans currently control the House) so, without regard to what the American people may or may not want, the "fix" is pretty-much in; sooner or later the wages of high-tech workers are going to plunge further downward. Government clearly DOES NOT WANT AMERICANS DOING HIGH-TECH WORK. This is a fact, no matter what they SAY. Government TAXES and REGULATES the things it wants to reduce. Government SUBSIDIZES and DE-REGULATES (removing limits is a form of de-regulation) the things it wants to increase.

    Any young American who wants a career it's impossible to be fired from, with a good salary and benefits, and with an absurdly unrealistic retirement package that will never be reduced, should major in some nebulous "public policy" field and get a job in the federal government regulating all the people who were stupid enough to try to be productive citizens. You don't have to KNOW anything or have any experience doing anything productive to be well-paid stopping other people from being productive... AND you'll be swimming WITH the currents (doing what government wants)

    1. Re:Why should any American kid bother? by meta-monkey · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Mod this man up. He knows what he's talking about.

      Not even related to computer jobs, I would not want to be working for a for-profit company in the US, at all. The pendulum has swung so far in the direction of capital and away from labor that people are basically slaves these days. The management squeezes you for every penny, no raises, no bonuses, doing the work of three people they've already laid off, because they know you'd have a hard time getting a job elsewhere. All the while conspiring to depress your wages through illegal collusion ala Steve Jobs and crew or through H1-B immigration. And it's not because they're evil (although they are frequently evil) it's because their job description demands it. They are required to "maximize shareholder value." You don't maximize value by handsomely rewarding employees, you maximize value by squeezing the maximum performance you can out of them for as few dollars as possible. If they don't, the shareholders will fire the CxO or just dump the stock.

      I'm very glad I work for a non-profit organization.

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
  12. You mean I'll be dead at 40? by VortexCortex · · Score: 2

    Wow, I can't wait to be dead at 40, right around family having age. Sign me up!

  13. Re:Computer Science is not IT and at times not cod by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Try telling that to HR departments around the world. All too often I've seen jobs posted looking for LAN technicians saying they want you to have a Computer Science or related degree; a few of them pass on my resume when they see my degree is in Network Systems Administration (I'm not entirely sure if a person is doing it, because in these cases I get an email saying I don't meet the minimum requirement even though I meet ALL of their requirements listed, including their bonus/preferred requirements, just I don't have a CS degree, nor am I interested in getting one.)

  14. Is that a bad thing? by Brulath · · Score: 3, Informative

    Why is it a problem that the percentage of computer science graduates, as a fraction of all graduates, isn't increasing? The number of students is increasing, so there are more graduates now than previously, but it's a problem because the proportion of those graduates completing computer science isn't higher? There are more degrees now than there were 30 years ago, that it hasn't decreased could be evidence of growth.

    <capitalism>We should all panic if <our field> doesn't reach <arbitrary metric> within <arbitrary time period></capitalism>

  15. So what? by GrahamCox · · Score: 2

    So people aren't flocking to become programmers?Good. It's not like the current rate has held technology back in any way - there are plenty of programmers - certainly enough to keep up with the rate that technology itself demands. More programmers wouldn't increase that, it would only make salaries lower. And that's probably why there seems to be a push from industry to get more people interested: more programmers = cheaper wages.

  16. Part, but not the whole by s.petry · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Please don't take this as an argument against you, it's meant to argue against this chronic message that we see every month or so that everyone in the US needs to be a programmer. I agree that it takes a certain mindset to be a programmer, just like it takes a certain mindset to be a Fireman, or Soldier, or Doctor, or Plumber, etc... I'm not a programmer for a living for the same reason I'm not a graphics designer. Doing either of those things for a living requires the ability to remain in abstract thought for long periods of time, very much like an artist.

    Honestly though, I don't see the big deal. If everyone in the US was a programmer we'd be naked and starve to death in short order. Our houses would burn down and our country would be invaded and taken over. The Allegory of the Artisan is very fitting here, and as with most things Socrates explains this dilemma very well.

    A secondary issue is that the a large portion of the population does not want to work any more than necessary to survive. It's not laziness for most, this is a normal and rational way of thinking. I have food on the table and a roof is over my head, life is good. It's takes exceptions to move beyond that, thankfully we have always had those types of people to spare.

    I agree with your points, and am more disagreeing with this latest "everyone needs to be a programmer" message. Society needs all kinds of people thinking all kinds of ways in order to function. I'm just fine with that.

    If society really wanted to change things then there would be incentives to do so. Who does society compensate better, a Lawyer or a Lead Developer? Lead Graphic Artist or Politician? Technical writer or Paralegal? I could go on and on with that one all day, so will get to the point. People that are above average tend to try and get the most compensation for their abilities. If being a Lawyer has better compensation than being a Lead Developer, guess where most people will gravitate? Society does not want change, or at least executives in companies don't. If they did, they would be paying programmers with 6 years experience more money than their latest marketing "Rock Start" who just got his MBA. They don't! If you want to make the big bucks you go into the business side of the house, period.

    --

    -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

  17. Re:Laziness and self-entitlement (and dumbness) by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 2

    So, the buying power was equal to today's $11, but fifty years later, with economic productivity doubled or tripled through automation, it's only between $7 and $9, depending on place. Are you sure you aren't merely reinforcing his point?

    --
    Ezekiel 23:20
  18. Salaries have fallen by evilviper · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Where is this "hot job market" exactly? The SF Bay area, where a typical salary is just enough to share an apartment with 3 other people, unless you're willing to do the 3-hour commute thing?

    It's always a fight for me to find work, usually 100 miles away from the previous job, most likely because HR rejects every resume lacking any keyword on the job reqs, and I'm one of the GOOD ones, with a resume that includes senior positions in big companies you've heard of. I swear HR has gone underground in the past few years, and is recruiting exclusively from LinkedIn or something.

    You're in for hell if you've got a student loan hanging over your head, and you're trying to break-in to IT with a blank resume. Hell, those companies that even ASK for any education specifically say they'll consider years of work experience as a substitute, so why go deep in debt for 4 years when you could be earning money instead?

    And those "competitive salaries" aren't that great when the companies expect 80 hour work weeks that burn-out their employees in 2-3 years, or with the above difficulty in finding positions when desired, and whatnot. A smart kid in the middle of flyover country studying IT will just be the most qualified janitor in the local McDonalds.

    Don't forget some lovely hoops, like companies requiring you meet recruiters in-person before even submitting a resume, or the horde of foreign spammers/telemarketers-cum-recruiters who don't know what state you're in, what you're looking for, or how much of your time they're wasting, and don't care.

    Why not have your kid learn to weld, following big construction jobs around the country, earning time and a half paid overtime, more than most IT Pros working the same total hours?

    --
    Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
  19. CS not even viable? by mpfife · · Score: 4, Insightful

    People SAY that CS is this big thing - but is it the real computer SCIENCE part - or do they mean code monkeys? CS was always meant to be much more theoretical than practical. About solving really hard problems in operating systems, efficient new kinds of hardware resource management, compilers, programming languages - not just writing the next web app.

    I think computing is undergoing just as big a change now as it did when the .com era came for the first time in the last 90's. Programming is actually getting EASIER and more accessible to everyone. Heck, we've got game makers almost exclusively using engines off the shelf to make massively successful games - and most of them are barely programmers at all. They're script monkeys in Unity. Web companies are making online applications solely from java/ruby and other high-level script and database languages. None of these things require nor touch the difficult problem computer science traditionally focuses on. They're technology jobs - not science.

    If I had to predict, the more traditional need of CS degrees are going to shrink and shrink as advances no longer require the bit-twiddling madness of the early years of computing. Hardware will easily have advanced so-as even the most inefficient algorithms for daily tasks will be just fine. No special knowledge needed. The small blobs of very high-perf code that will be needed will be done by small, very skilled CS majors (drivers, OS's, database cores, distributed memory systems, etc), but the majority of code/apps will be simply scripted/assembled together on top of these high-perf, highly-accessible API's. We already see it with abstractions like PhoneGap, Unity, etc.

    1. Re:CS not even viable? by ljw1004 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I think we saw it 20 years ago with VB and Delphi and similar RAD products. It democratized business computing, allowing every hotel to have a computerized checkin system tailored to its needs, every X business to have a Y system.

  20. Re:Computer Science is not IT and at times not cod by chrisautrey · · Score: 2

    What's this reading comprehension thing you keep talking about. Is that something I can get with a Computer Science degree?

  21. Not interested in cars or roads either by erroneus · · Score: 3, Insightful

    When electricity was new, a LOT of people were bitten by the bug. Electrical tinkering was everywhere. You don't see that so much now. Occasionally you will see something interesting, but those individuals who still have an interest in it are rare. For most people, electrical devices and electricity are just a part of life.

    Cars and roads and all the things that make civilization are all the same in this respect. And computers and all that? Moore's law is dead. The excitement is dead with it. More and more it is just business and daily communications and the like. It's not rare, novel or unusual and therefore not interesting to the masses.

    We're witnessing the maturing of an industry. It will remain important, but the players will be fewer. And seriously, when was the last time you saw people lined up outside of CompUSA to buy the next version of Windows? That's literally decades ago and things have seriously gone downhill since that time. It's all normal and common infrastructure now.

    It kind of makes me wonder what the next great technological wonder will be and how everyone will jump on it the way we all did with computers over the last what? 30+ years? We're kind of due for it.

  22. Re:Computer Science is not IT and at times not cod by mrchaotica · · Score: 3, Insightful

    For a LAN technician job, a network systems administration degree clearly counts as "related" to a CS degree. Therefore, this is a situation where blatantly lying on your resume is ethical (just explain once you get to the interview).

    --

    "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

  23. Re:Computer Science is not IT and at times not cod by Drethon · · Score: 2

    Time to lie on resumes? Or tell the truth that HR doesn't recognize?

  24. Re:Computer Science is not IT and at times not cod by jbolden · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Network System Administration is a trade. Computer Science is an academic discipline. Those aren't related degrees or at least shouldn't be. A computer science undergrad degree I'd expect the person to be familiar with ideas from history / philosophy of science about the limits of positivism. I'd expect them to have taken theoretical math courses. I'd expect many of their programming courses to be in languages which teach them about computer languages not in practical computer languages. Languages like Oz are good for Computer Science while Network System Administration I'd want C, Java... In short I'd expect them to be prepped to go to grad school. On the other hand I'd have no expectations that they have any particular skills to a meaningful extent. Network System Administration I'd expect skills but not necessarily an education suited for academic work. Narrowly focused and more practical.

    Now. Don't get me wrong 95% of employers want the Network System Administration degree not the computer science degree. But in the abstract they aren't equivalent at all.

  25. What hot job market? by morgauxo · · Score: 3, Informative

    If you want to slave away at some startup working all your waking hours for a fixed sallary just to make the company grow then sure, the job market is hot. If you think that will get you anywhere other than out of a job when the company either folds (90% of the time) or is bought up by a bigger player you are just another naive kid.

    Don't get me wrong, there are some good programming jobs out there. I found one! But they are the exception, few and far between.

    Oh, and for you program all day long 50+ hours a week types... all those hours sitting at a computer.. that is NOT kind to your body!

  26. Re:Why learn CS only to train your H1B replacement by walterbyrd · · Score: 3, Insightful

    > Let me check... nope, I seem to still have a job, so you're not quite correct.

    I guess, as long as there is one job left in the US then everything is just fine.

  27. Re:Computer Science is not IT and at times not cod by Ryanrule · · Score: 3, Insightful

    His degree is a diploma mill fake degree.

  28. Don't blame them by DontBlameCanada · · Score: 2

    Good salary base, but every day I fight with ding-dong execs to ensure my team doesn't get completely overloaded. The constant pressure to work 16hr days 365 days/year while not being compensated for OT is draining and makes life hell at times.

    I won't suggest my kids go into high-tech, unless they can get a sweet-sweet senior mgmt position.

  29. Re:Computer Science is not IT and at times not cod by jbolden · · Score: 2

    There is an assumption you learn business technical support skills with that degree.

    That's a bad assumption and one that should be changed. There should be and needs to be a clear distinction between forward going degrees and terminal degrees.

    Computer science should include these kinds of courses and certifications for it if employers demand them.

    Academic degrees are not driven by what employers want they are driven primarily by what professional / graduate schools want. That's one of the distinctions between academic and technical degrees. Academic degrees are not meant to be terminal.

    Even electives like Biology these days teach powerpoint skills as it helps students who are non medical majors a real world use in the business world.

    First off PowerPoint is rather easy. So if you mean that biology classes use PowerPoint, then that's fine. But how does biology teach PowerPoint? But in general I agree that colleges are polluting academic programs by teaching trades. They shouldn't be doing that, trade skills for an academic program belong in a professional or graduate school.

  30. Not for everyone by wcrowe · · Score: 2

    I've been out of school a long time, but the market for CS people was pretty hot in the mid-80s and this was the pattern I observed: People would head down the CS path, thinking they would cash in on the great opportunities. However, a lot of them would switch majors after their first programming class, and more would drop after their first advanced class (data structures, or something like that), I have had many, many people tell me over the years that they took some programming and didn't like it. It's just not something everyone can do, or that everyone likes.

    --
    Proverbs 21:19
  31. Viable career path? by Larry_Dillon · · Score: 2

    With people like Zuckerberg saying that he only wants people under 30 and the reports of ageism in CS and IT fields, I can see why people aren't going into CS and IT. Some are going to do well but many are going to drop by the wayside. Why not go into a career where you are still valued are 50 or 60?

    --
    Competition Good, Monopoly Bad.
  32. 20-somethings dont worry about ageism by peter303 · · Score: 2

    Being 40 is so far off! If you are retraiinng for anew career in 30s you may consider skipping professional baseball and IT.