US College Students Still Aren't All That Interested In Computer Science

itwbennett (1594911) writes "Despite the hot job market and competitive salaries, the share of Computer Science degrees as a percentage of BA degrees has remained essentially unchanged since 1981, according to data from the National Center for Educational Statistics' Digest of Educational Statistics. If history is any indication, it will take a cultural phenomenon to shift the percentage higher: Blogger Phil Johnson point out that there were 'two distinct peaks, one in 1985 (4.4% of U.S. college degrees) and one in 2002 (4.42%). These would represent big increases for the classes entering school in 1981 and 1998 respectively. The former year corresponds to the beginning of computers coming into the home and the release of things like MS-DOS 1.0, all of which may have increased interest in programming. The latter year was during the dot com bubble, which, no doubt, also boosted interest.'"

Comments

Computer Science is not IT and at times not code

[Joe_Dragon]

Computer Science is not IT and at some time / schools not even coding, web site work and more.

I have tried

[EmperorOfCanada]

I have tried to teach a handful of people how to program. Generally it either takes or it doesn't. Some people would lose their minds at how hard it can be to get some new library to compile and I think they could see that coming. The whole concept that a single wrong letter could mean the difference between success and 200 error messages just made them ask, "You do this all day?"

I don't think that it is that these people can't learn but it is simply something that is completely not part of their brain's make-up. Many people like things like writing reports where you are making a generalize persuasive argument which will be backed up with meeting and maybe even some time on a golf course; things that generally drive most programmers insane.

Re:I have tried

[InsultsByThePound]

Many people like things like writing reports where you are making a generalize persuasive argument which will be backed up with meeting and maybe even some time on a golf course; things that generally drive most programmers insane.

Most antisocial programmers I have seen are stuck on bullshit jobs after 40 because they can't take shove their OCD aside but at the same time aren't smart enough to realize "No, I'm not a genius like Carmack who can afford to act 100x as OCD as me without repercussion."

Then they steam and stew while less able programmers get promoted, because they can hob nob with a bunch of managers on the back nine without missing a beat.

Re:I have tried

[SuperKendall]

Just be friendly to non-programmers. That's good enough.

Re:I have tried

[Anonymous Coward]

So your advice is to suck knob. Go fuck yourself. Fuck you and the jock closet you crawled out of, MBA faggot.

Good job on proving his point.

Re:I have tried

[K. S. Kyosuke]

Some people would lose their minds at how hard it can be to get some new library to compile and I think they could see that coming.

Alan Kay and John McCarthy would lose their minds had they tried to compile C libraries. Fortunately, they were also very fond of removing accidental complexity from programming. The one of the crappy tool kind for sure, but not only that.

Re:I have tried

[phantomfive]

I find the biggest problem with teaching people to program is keeping them interested. They start learning keywords, etc, then they get bored. I've figured out how to break it into problems that are small enough if the person has interest to keep learning, but most people don't have the motivation to keep going. They don't have any interest.

Re:I have tried

[Anonymous Coward]

Intresting note, I for one might be the OCD person you are talking about.. but.. wait.. I have decided that I'm not intrested in management, I do not want to climb the ledder. I want to find the sweetspot of maximum income and as little responsibility as possible, and my intrest is genuine in coding and computers. I do not beleave that Im the next Carmack, I code to bad, to slow, and I for sure talk to less about my abilities.

No, I will be the one debugging things that noone else can, and in a way Im already that guy, cause when it really really screwesup they come to me, cause apparently today noone at a Java shop can any anything about C++ or Asm or the OS of the computer (Im serious). I might not be a great programmer but I have patient and can digg for things longer then most.

Im soon to be 40 (Im 37), and I hope at the time Im not stuck at a shit job.

Re:I have tried

[mrchaotica]

I agree with you (that either you get it or you don't), but it's on a deeper level than "get a character wrong and it doesn't compile." Some people are just fundamentally incapable of understanding the concepts involved. You can tell because they'll be 11 weeks in to their 12 week "intro to programming" class and still can't tell the difference between declaring a function and using it, or you'll ask them what the type of a variable is and they'll tell you its value instead, or things like that.

Re:I have tried

[idji]

In the last 16 months I ran workshops around the world for over 200 technical consultants working for IT companies. Less than 10 of them would be able to write recursive or sort functions or other problem-solving algorithms. Most of them were what I call "configurers". A massive amount of the problem-solving burden falls on me because i learnt how to program in the 1980's before the internet and code libraries appeared.

Re:I have tried

[c]

The whole concept that a single wrong letter could mean the difference between success and 200 error messages just made them ask, "You do this all day?"

shrug Some people just can't hack jobs where attention to detail matters. A missing semi-colon in software isn't much less messier than an accountant misplacing a decimal, or a millwright putting an extra turn on a depth wheel, or a carpenter cutting an inch short.

Re:I have tried

[MrLeap]

I never understood the massive emphasis placed on recursion in college. Was it because it's somewhat unintuitive? That must be it, since it couldn't be taught because it's useful.

Using it immediately opens you up to stack overflows. Unless your language decides your method is eligible for tail call optimization. Even then, that hampers the code's maintainability immensely, because if one guy makes a change to your data processing recursor that precludes it from tail call optimization, you suddenly get stack overflows when you didn't before. I have solved thousands of problems that I could have used recursion for. Iteration is always better, except if you're going for a solution that allows you to stand up in your cubicle and go "SHAZAM!" after you build and it works.

Once you fully understand recursion, you also understand why you should hardly ever (epsilon% of the time) use it. It's just a parlor trick colleges use as a tool of discrimination. It works well enough at that I suppose, but I would consider using it often to be a bad habit, like shooting pennies and confetti out of your sleeves during dinner.

Re:I have tried

[ColdWetDog]

Apparently those are fighting words to some mods. Interesting. I wonder if we're in a Prozac shortage or something.

Re:I have tried

[idji]

it's no parlour trick. For tasks like navigating down through an xml file, parsing boolean phrases like "a and (c or (d xor e)))", searching a folder system, navigating a tree, implementing Qucksort Algorithm, Towers of Hanoi, giving change with coins, etc have NO STACK OVERFLOW issues
Show me smarter ways of solving these problems.
A while loop can have a stack overflow if you forget to increment a counter. That's just bad programming - it doesn't mean a while loop is bad.

Re:I have tried

[david_thornley]

Iteration is always better? Why don't you write a binary tree traversal function twice: once iterative and once recursive. Get back to us.

Not terribly surprising

[O('_')O_Bush]

CS degrees aren't the only game in town. Lots of programmers come from C.E., E.E., or Math degrees. I would say the number of programmers, in total, are going up, just that CS degrees are less prestigious or desirable.

Re:Not terribly surprising

[Thantik]

Well, given that CS degrees lately consist of having students reimplement all the sorting methods learned since the 1970s, I can certainly understand why CS degrees are less desirable. I know many college kids who took up CS classes, who thought they were going to learn to code, learn awesome things, and it turned out to have much less to do with computers, and much more to do with general math/logic.

Re: Not terribly surprising

[Anonymous Coward]

Computers ARE math and logic.

Re:Not terribly surprising

[Desler]

CS has always been about math and logic.

Re:Not terribly surprising

[DutchUncle]

That's part of the problem. Architecture is not piling bricks and nailing boards, it's physics and math. Automotive engineering isn't driving cool cars, it's *designing* cool cars. And most of the crap software around is precisely because people slapped some code together without design and engineering and planning and logic.

Re:Not terribly surprising

[pla]

So learning abstract calculus for 3 semesters, linear algebra, analysis / topology is not going to give you coding ability.

I don't normally respond to ACs, but you have it so wrong, I couldn't resist.

Linear algebra quite possibly counts as the single most useful pure-math course I took as part of my CS degree - With statistics as a close second. And of course, I don't even mention boolean algebra because it counts as just too obvious (protip: fully parenthesize everything, because no, that line doesn't do what you meant, and I have to fix it after they can your ass).

No, HR doesn't understand that. HR doesn't understand a single goddamned word on your resume, so don't bother - Just make sure your cover letter mentions every buzzword in the job listing, and HR will pass you along to the actual hiring manager.

And he will appreciate the difference between someone who did a static webpage as their capstone project vs someone who can chat about the meaning of the various ways to measure the average of a set of values (free hint: mean/median/mode ain't even a weak start to that conversation).

Math isn't CS. But CS is math.

Re:Not terribly surprising

[Nemyst]

And I find that a lack of understanding of mathematics and logic (this is college level mathematics for CS we're talking about, so rather basic in the grand scheme of things) quite heavily correlates with an inability to structure code in a logical and mathematically sound way. Funny how that works, right?

It's not that CS is less desirable and especially not less prestigious, it's that we had grossly inflated head counts in CS for a long time because degrees like software engineering didn't exist. Now that they do, the people who want to program and engineer code can go there, and they'll find that what they do is much more in line with what they expected to be doing. CS is reserved for a much more theoretical perspective, and I don't see that as making it the lesser discipline, quite the contrary in fact. It does however mean that a CS degree won't automatically net you a job at a big software company, since the skills learned in CS are at best parallel to what they require.

A good CS student will however be able to adapt quite easily and can even outperform a comparable SE student because of their better theoretical knowledge.

Re:Not terribly surprising

[CDPS]

By "learn to code, learn awsome things" I presume you mean they thought they were going to be building commercial-level games after a single programming course. Yeah, I have known a number of such kids too. Had no clue about the amount of knowledge and effort building any significant software system takes. Thought that playing computer games is almost the same as building them. Gave up as soon as they found programming required some work and thinking.

Re:Not terribly surprising

[tompaulco]

Well, that is why it is called Computer Science. If they want to learn to code, they should go to a vocation institute. If they want to be a well rounded, well educated person that understands the theory of how algorithms and computation work, then they should get a Computer Science degree, if they want to learn how computers function, they should get a Computer Engineering degree. If they want to manage computer people, they should get a MIS degree.
Two steps to getting the right people in the right jobs is: 1) Students understanding what the degrees mean and 2) HR understanding what the degrees mean.

Re:Not terribly surprising

[stalky14]

I'd upvote you if I could. Calculus (and to a lesser extent, C) was what got me booted out of CS. I was dumbfounded at the time because I was a programming and electronics fiend my whole teenagerhood and figured I could take on the major, no-sweat. After failing Calc-2 no less than 5 times, I should have gotten the hint. Fortunately, I had a friend who was a major in Computer Engineering Technology -- basically embedded controls design and programming. Hardware design and programming the hardware in (mostly) assembly. And best of all, NO full-on Calc! There was a special sequence of applied math courses specifically for majors in the *ET family. I did well there. If only I had swallowed my pride earlier and admitted that there were things I just sucked at.

I learned later in life that my affinity for programming came from an aptitude for the synthesis of logic and _language_, not symbolism or numbers. My brain's just wired for one set of abstractions and not another. So be it.

Computer technology is a commonplace enough realm now for there to be a whole array of majors catering to all aptitudes and interests. Using generic CS as a metric has lost its accuracy. In fact, I think it's a major best reserved for purists who will eventually seek a more specific graduate degree or those who are knowingly undecided and will change to something more specific midway.

Re:Not terribly surprising

[mlyle]

> (protip: fully parenthesize everything, because no, that line doesn't do what you meant, and I have to fix it after they can your ass).

Heh. I more often have to deal with the opposite-- people who know the order of operations and use it to write really complicated expressions that are correct but not obvious, and confuse the fuck out of people trying to read the code... that then I have to go break into the actual expressions and describe to people.

Re:Not terribly surprising

[m00sh]

CS degrees aren't the only game in town. Lots of programmers come from C.E., E.E., or Math degrees. I would say the number of programmers, in total, are going up, just that CS degrees are less prestigious or desirable.

I think getting a CS degree to become programmer is overkill. It is like getting a Mechnical Engineering degree to be a mechanic.

Anyway computer science degrees as it is right now is disappointing. There simply isn't four years worth of material to be learned. There is a lot of fluff that is half outdated and half not used anymore. There are courses on compiler design, OS design, computer graphics that is difficult it is more of using tools rather than learning some CS fundamental. Since a lot of programmers want to get the CS degree, most departments water down the degree and it is the middle of being a science degree and a technical degree. I would think that automata theory, information theory, machine learning would be essential CS but they are mostly relegated to graduate courses.

One option that our local university does is to make computer science and electrical engineering into one single degree. There are lots of jobs out there that aren't pure software development but need to work closely with hardware.

The other option is to let students get a minor in computer programming so they can study engineering, math, psychology, biology etc and still get lots of programming experience. Someone with a minor in computer programming or maybe a two year degree in computer programming should be looked as viable for working as a programmer.

Re:Not terribly surprising

[Bill Dog]

The only people who should try to read the code are those who know the language. And knowing the language includes knowing the operator precedence rules.

Re:Not terribly surprising

[s.petry]

My major was in Math, but what an awful career I saw that as. Luckily I learned lots of programming in the process of getting my Math degree. Helps too that I had a minor in Philosophy so learned a whole lot about logic, rhetoric, debate, etc.. or at least I think it helped.

Sure, some things in CS are very left brained, other things are very right brained. Find your niche and go with it. The way HR works today as long as you can play buzzword bingo you can get an interview. Most hiring managers bring you in for a technical interview. If you know your stuff and can make a good impression during the technical interview, you have a chance at landing the job.

I think the hard thing today is that coming out of school you can't really play buzzword bingo with your resume yet. Kind of sad that the hiring process has become what it is today.

Re:Not terribly surprising

[kthreadd]

Where I come from we don't actually have computer science, only computing science. I've always liked that name better and used it as a reminder that what I'm doing is not really about computers although the tool I'm using usually is one.

Re: Not terribly surprising

[0xdeaddead]

I always thought it was math & magic. But more so magic.

Nothing like the battle cry of "it worked in the lab!" in the morning.

Re:Not terribly surprising

[the grace of R'hllor]

I'm disinclined to have to disagree with whoever denies that you aren't incorrect.

There is a more obvious way of writing the above sentence, and it should be employed. Even though none of the words are terribly complicated, the whole cannot be understood at a glance.

The same goes for simpler things like operator precedence rules. Code should be understandable upon scanning it, unless it's black magic, heavily optimized code.

Re:Not terribly surprising

[bucket_brigade]

"and much more to do with general math/logic" well thank fuck. Anyone can learn to code on their own, not so with general math/logic.

Re:Not terribly surprising

[roger10-4]

This, I think, is the general reason why CS isn't popular. CS *is* math and logic. It's also a difficult subject that not everyone can or wants to learn. You can't learn the awesome things in Computer Science without first understanding these core concepts. If you just want to make a pretty web site or fancy mobile app, you probably don't need a CS degree. The awesome stuff requires an understanding of the "nuts and bolts" (including sorting algorithms from the 70's).

Re:Not terribly surprising

[DoofusOfDeath]

Agreed. In my experience, physics majors tend to be excellent programmers, better than many CS majors. Perhaps it's because they're mostly just smart a heck, and that matters more than having taken a bunch of CS courses.

Engineering majors, in my experience, tend to be capable enough, but their code is hard to read / maintain. It's kind of like they're would-be CS majors who didn't take the CS courses.

Re:Not terribly surprising

[gander666]

Agreed. In my experience, physics majors tend to be excellent programmers, better than many CS majors. Perhaps it's because they're mostly just smart a heck, and that matters more than having taken a bunch of CS courses.

As a physics degree holder, I would counter that. Yes, we are really good at algorithms, and the like, but without a lot of re-education we make terrible developers (I am not one, but I work with a dev group that has 3 PhD Physicists). They write cool code, but are fuck-all at doing error checking, bounds checking, and other mundane things that are important in production environments. Physicists would rather spend hours grooming their input data than have their code do some reality checks.

Re:Not terribly surprising

[Bacon Bits]

Really?

I took a semester of linear algebra, too, and it was hands down, full stop the most useless course I took in my entire college career. Like the most useful seeming thing was solutions of groups of linear equations, but I have never been in a situation where I knew or could construct an equation to build into a system. We touched somewhat on linear regressions, but never got far enough into them to do anything useful. Other than that it was a huge amount of fairly basic algebraic geometry.

I'd already completed two semesters of calculus, statistics, relational algebra and a class in formal logic. There was no translation in the program from mathematics to applications in computer science, either, so everything was left so abstract and disconnected from any purpose in reality that it was merely learning the mechanics of solving complex problems without ever beginning to understand how to identify such a problem or what the solution actually meant. Nobody comes up to you and says "here is a matrix that represents a set of linear equations. solve it." and that's all that class did. Where do these equations come from? How do I construct them? How do I know they're related? What does performing these mathematical operations mean? Why is this mathematical solution important? Knowing how to multiply 6 * 7 is fantastic, but if we're talking about 6 as the fourth octet of an IP address, and 7 as the number of chairs in the conference room that are blue, then multiplying 6 * 7 isn't particularly meaningful. It was like taking calculus without physics, or trying to learn SQL without a database to play with, or learn how to write a class without a useful object to represent and useful functions to operate against. It was a complete waste of time.

Re:Not terribly surprising

[meta-monkey]

I started in CS, but quit after a semester because I realized I didn't need to pay for a 4 year degree to learn to code (I know, I know there's more to it than that, data structures and blah blah blah). I could teach myself programming out of a book and trial and error. I switched instead to EE because I knew I would have a much tougher time understanding computer hardware and what was actually inside those semiconductor chips without a college to teach me. I focused on computer architecture, and my deep understanding of what's going on inside the processor has made me a much better coder. I now work doing database programming.

To be honest, I don't know if I would recommend a CS degree to someone who wanted to be a programmer. I would tell them to teach themselves programming and go to school for something you can't teach yourself near so easily.

Re:Not terribly surprising

[pla]

I took a semester of linear algebra, too, and it was hands down, full stop the most useless course I took in my entire college career.

You already mentioned regression. How about affine tranformations (or virtually the entirety of 3d graphics)? Markov chains? FFT? Force/tension distribution? State space modelling? Covariance matrices? Projection of an m-brane onto a n-brane (or any shift in dimensionality, really)?

Linear algebra makes all of those trivial to compute. Yes, some of them have more straightforward solutions using calculus, but those don't always tend to readily map well to code.

If anything, I would say that your professor failed in not explaining why the topic matters... Because linear algebra shows up everywhere in CS.

Re:Not terribly surprising

[MrLeap]

Linear Algebra > all other math classes. I feel like it should have been the grade school progression immediately after basic algebra, learn matrices. Then use matrices for everything after that. Teach the linear algebra method of a thing before you teach any other method.

But then again I'm a zealot.

I agree that what I learned in calculus has been meh. I wouldn't have lost anything if instead of taking the course, someone had sat me down and said "a derivative is a function that represents the rate of change (slope) of a function. An integral is effectively the reverse operation."

Maybe it would be different if I was a quant or something?

Re:Not terribly surprising

[MrLeap]

Clearly it depends on what your specific development interest are, and the way that your professor presents the material.

In my course, solving linear systems was maybe the first week, and then on to bigger and better things.

The lecture I heard on eigenvectors was so ludicrously inspiring that I almost couldn't sit through the whole thing without running back to my dorm to write python. To think, that it allows you to define an "anchor" in an arbitrary transformation. You can interpolate at any point along the eigenvector and create an animation! Also, regarding computer vision / OCR? LA is HUGE.

Thinking in terms of matrices also enables making parallel code where another developer would miss it. If your code isn't performance intensive then this doesn't really matter, but it's the foundation of why there's a huge population of interest behind CUDA/GPGPU's. If you hear all the hype about functional programming / map -> reduce etc, the whole point with it is allowing you to process enormous baskets of vectors (ie: matrices).

The fringes of what I know about computer science always seems to sit adjacent to a linear algebra problem. I'm sorry you had a poor experience with it.

Re:Not terribly surprising

[deKernel]

I wish I could pile up all my points onto your statement because it is SOOOOO true. I love the "architects" that just jump right into coding without even taking a moment to understand the problem domain.

Re:Not terribly surprising

[0xdeadbeef]

Well, given that CS degrees lately consist of having students reimplement all the sorting methods learned since the 1970s, I can certainly understand why CS degrees are less desirable.

Sorting algorithms are year one stuff until you get into analyzing their efficiency. Any school that thinks that is the pinnacle of CS is a diploma mill, and so will of course produce mediocre programmers. Only people outside the field are fooled by those degrees.

I know many college kids who took up CS classes, who thought they were going to learn to code, learn awesome things, and it turned out to have much less to do with computers, and much more to do with general math/logic.

Oh. You're whining because basic theory is just too hard.

Re:Not terribly surprising

[Bacon Bits]

Well, the class was taught by the Math department, not the Computer Science department. There were no practical applications for any of the material. Math classes always seem to assume your formulae already exist.

And I've never had to do any of those things you mention. All my programming has been with business data originally, and (today) with systems analysis on student information and school finance systems. None of my analyses have had to deal with multidimensional data. While I'm sure you could apply some of those transformations could produce useful results on the systems I work on, nobody has ever asked me for them in the past 10 years.

Re:Not terribly surprising

[NoOneInParticular]

A && B == C | D

What happens?

Re:Not terribly surprising

[david_thornley]

I once considered memorizing the C operator precedence table, and decided it was a bad idea. I just make sure the expression works, by using more parentheses than necessary.

Re:Not terribly surprising

[david_thornley]

If you don't read code until you know the language, how do you learn anything? If you program C++, do you tell your manager you can't look at a C# or Java program?

Re:Not terribly surprising

[david_thornley]

If you can't handle Calc-2, you really aren't suited for any sort of science, or a whole lot of engineering fields. I'm glad you got into something that worked for you, and that you're productive in. (You mentioned a sequence of applied math courses - did any of them cover calculus? Sometimes it's just a whole lot easier to learn the math if you can see immediately how it applies to you.)

Re:Not terribly surprising

[david_thornley]

There's many more than four years of material that can be learned. Of course, if you're in an institution where undergrads don't study automata theory (tomato theory as it got called), you are correct to be disappointed in the program.

Re:Not terribly surprising

[Bill Dog]

No, but you also don't tell your manager that for example the program has using statements in it and that that's a bad thing because it "confuse[s] the fuck out of people". When it's only confusing if you only know C++, but to C# programmers there's nothing confusing about it. Similarly with for example inner classes in Java. Just because they don't have the same access rules as they do in C++ doesn't make it "confusing" to use them in Java.

Re:Not terribly surprising

[Bill Dog]

You didn't specify the language but every programmer should know at least that logical and bitwise operations happen before comparison ones.

Re:Not terribly surprising

[Bill Dog]

Bad analogy; you tried to parallel laborious obfuscation with the most straightforward way of typing out an expression. Plain English is like plain <insert computer language>. Adding superfluous parens would be akin to putting footnote indicators in a simple English sentence that painstakingly elaborates on each clause in terms of the others:

if (C | D == A && B)

She sells seashells by the seashore.

vs.

if ((C | D)( == (A && B)))

She sells[1] seashells by[2] the seashore.
[1] That is, what she's selling is actually just seashells, and not some heretofore undefined concept referred to by the long name of "seashells by the seashore".
[2] That is, in proximity to the seashore, not in seashore-sized batches.

One of these two pairs is easier to scan.

Re:Not terribly surprising

[Bill Dog]

Simply memorizing it would indeed be a suboptimal idea. Better to internalize it. That is, study and ponder it until it makes sense. (Afterall, operator precedence in a language isn't just what fell out, it's designed in to be the way it is.)

doesn't seem super informational

[jaymz666]

Is a CIT degree counted in the numbers? The list of degrees by subject seems to be Computer Science and Technology...

BA Degrees?

[Jmstuckman]

I would expect Computer Science degrees as a percentage of BA degrees to be low, as almost all Computer Science degrees are of the BS (or Bachelors of Science, if you will) variety.

The original article doesn't even have "BA" anywhere in it, though, so I have no idea where the submitter got that detail.

Re:BA Degrees?

[Darinbob]

They used to be B.A. degrees when I was in school, but I took Computer Engineering instead which was a B.S. degree. Later they combined it, still two degrees but you chose whether to get B.A. or B.S. (with many more math/science requirements and electives for B.S. of course).

Re:BA Degrees?

[Fallen Kell]

The point they were making was CS degrees vs other degrees like BA's (philosophy, art, fashion design, communications, history, english literature, music, etc).

Re:BA Degrees?

[AthanasiusKircher]

The original article doesn't even have "BA" anywhere in it, though, so I have no idea where the submitter got that detail.

I don't think it's a "detail," and my guess is the submitter didn't even mean "Bachelor of Arts."

It's less common usage these days, particularly among science and engineering folks, but "BA" is used by some people as a generic abbreviation for saying "bachelor's degree," regardless of the specific variety. You used to be able to ask someone, "What did you get your BA in?" regardless of field. Nowadays, mostly you only tend to hear this among humanities types.

For a little history: today we tend to view the "arts" in "bachelor of arts" to mean something like "humanities" or at least something different from "science." Historically, the "arts" in the degree meant the "liberal arts", which included sciences as well as humanities. (The word "ars, artis" in Latin, which is where the degree name comes from, doesn't mean "art" in the modern English sense -- it means something more like "skill" or "craft.")

So, a couple hundred years ago, all colleges just awarded a "Bachelor of [Liberal] Arts" in general. With the rise of scientific disciplines in the 1800s and particularly the 1900s, there was a desire to create a sort of "professional degree" for scientists, which wouldn't require science students to have the same breadth of learning as traditional "liberal arts" students, sort of like how an "MBA" today is assumed to be a much more particular skills-oriented "professional" degree, compared to an "MA".

As I understand it, in practice, at many universities the new "BS" degree meant that students were exempted from things like intensive study of Latin and Greek. One could still get a BA in Chemistry or Physics or whatever, which would imply you actually took a broad set of requirements in various disciplines, but your BS meant you probably intended to be headed specifically for the science profession and didn't want to bother with the standard requirements of other "well-educated" people.

There are still some schools that offer such a choice -- you could get a BA in Chemistry, which would imply you took a broader set of requirements across various disciplines, or you could get a BS, which means you were more narrowly focused on science classes. Some older colleges and universities still only award BA degrees, since that is the most traditional. And a few colleges with an explicitly technical focus only award BS degrees, like MIT -- where, in an ironic historical twist, you can only get a BS in history or a BS in literature, etc. This has to do with MIT's original focus as a professional school, where it simply was originally impossible to get the breadth of a traditional "liberal arts" curriculum. (Technically, MIT uses the reversed Latin abbreviations for their degrees, so they are actually SB degrees, but whatever.)

Anyhow, all of this is to say that "BA" was for many centuries the "default" bachelor's degree, and the "arts" in its name doesn't preclude a scientific focus, despite modern trends at many universities. But don't be surprised if you occasionally hear some people use it as a generic abbreviation for any bachelor's degree, whether [liberal] arts, or some traditionally "professional" degree with a more narrow focus like science (BS), education (BEd), music (BM), etc.

Follow the money

[Opportunist]

Let's be honest here, CS is not the easiest kind of degree you can get. And you also need to understand the crap you learn, sponge learning (soak up the crap, squeeze it out for the test, rinse with alcohol afterwards to get rid of the residue) doesn't cut it, this ain't law or business administration.

And since it ain't law or BA, it's also not the prestige and/or money that could possibly make it attractive. What's left is these people who study it because they WANT to. It's not where you go when you don't know what to study but your parents want you to go to the university, and neither is it what you study when money is your only reason why you want a degree. CS is what you study when you want to study CS.

And the number of people who're interested in computers, who have the mindset AND who have the required brains to make it doesn't change. Why should it?

Re:Follow the money

[Opportunist]

Which is the course where logical thinking is removed and replaced by buzzwords?

Re:Follow the money

[Ryanrule]

yes, all all of them use software with the formulas baked in. written by cs people.

Some of the reasons I think..

[Redbehrend]

When I went to college I changed from Computer Science to Business. I feel there are a couple reasons of this and why it hasn't changed... First off it takes a certain person to program, as stated above some people will take it in like a sponge and some people will just never get it right. (I had that part down)
Secondly the poor funding and options in this area for colleges, I think sports teams get more funding than Computer Science. (That's how it was at my school.) I learned more off the interweb than I ever did from the classes.
Third Computer Science was very restricted on what schools, jobs, internships that I could get. It was so restrictive that I and others changed to business, math, etc... which opened up our opportunities tenfold.

In my experience I had more opportunities going ANY other path other than CS. If it happened with me than I am sure it happened to 1,000 of other college kids.

Where do you live?

[rsilvergun]

my kid works like a dog. Christ, she works harder than I do. And her classmates are working even harder. 4 to 6 hours of homework a night isn't unheard of. It's fsckin' nuts.

But you're right about them not being dumb. Just about everyone in IT except a few rock stars at google is here on an H1-B. Why in God's good name would anyone go into computer science?

Re:Where do you live?

[Kagato]

If you have the programming chops you won't have a problem getting a job. Most of us are making enough money to put ourselves in the top 3% in terms of wages and benefits. The dumbest thing so-called globalization experts did was convince students that going into programming was worth while. Fact is we have such a deficit in programming that the H1-B shops now charge $100/hr for a developer (don't worry, the Indian guy working the gig only gets a pittance) because that's what supply and demand warrants. That's a high enough rate that a college graduate is fairly compelling.

The problem is large companies have largely abandoned their college recruiting programs in the 2000s. I haven't worked in a shop that has had a programming intern in at least 8 years. The pipeline for programming talent has shifted to small and mid sized companies. The biggest issue is they lack the resources and will to invest in college hires.

So to answer the question, getting into computer programming, dev ops, database administration are skills that pay very very well. I actually make most of my money off shops that got burned with offshore and H1B and want experienced developers. When they complain about cost I tell them to start up a college recruiting program.

Re: Where do you live?

[mrchaotica]

That's because there aren't that many Stanford grads, and the companies are too fucking stupid to open dev offices in places outside Silicon Valley where the rest of the good CS grads are (e.g. CMU/Pittsburgh, GA Tech/Atlanta, etc.)

Valley companies see a "shortage" because the rest of us aren't idiots and therefore realize it's not in our interest to accept 300% higher cost of living for 20% higher pay.

Re:Where do you live?

[meta-monkey]

The nice thing about knowing how to program is how much easier it is to start your own business while doing something else with little to no risk. I work a day job and also have a side e-commerce project I'm developing.

These days, you can come up with a good idea for a phone app, write it in your spare time and turn around and sell it to somebody for a cool bil. Obviously, those are the outliers, but even if it never sells, it's a finished project you can put on your resume and demo for a hiring manager. If my kid were in high school today (he's not quite two, so he's got a ways to go) I would tell him to team up with a kid who's into graphic arts and put together a game for the iphone/android.

Re:Where do you live?

[the phantom]

This is slightly off-topic, but 4-6 hours of homework every night for a college student doesn't seem that far outside the realm of reasonable to me. A student taking 12-15 semester credit hours is considered a full-time student. The thinking is that this course load represents the same commitment as a full-time job, i.e. about 40 hours per week. Since each semester credit hour represents an single hour of class each week, a 12-15 hour load represents only 12-15 hours of the student's commitment for the week. That leaves another 25-28 hours for homework. That's another 3.5-4 hours for homework every day, or 5-6 hours if you take the weekend off.

Most software dev jobs do not need CompSci

[Rinikusu]

And with the ever present threat of off-shoring (to hire non-computer science degree holding Indians), why saddle yourself with mountains of debt just to get a degree that's basically worthless for the "real world," and getting in on the bubble2.0 money? I don't mean this to say that Computer Science is worthless, but that for the vast majority of monkey work out there, it can and is being done by folks who wouldn't know a design pattern from their bosses' assholes. This is mainly because the smart guys doing the real CompSci are building the tools that make it possible for that fucking idiot in the next office over to look like a real fucking genius because he could modify a report someone else wrote to change the text a different color.

Yes yes, devs could potentially benefit from a real CompSci education. Sadly, most universities don't even teach that anymore; they've become vocational schools for the java/.net sweatshops out there. So, if you're going to be an easily replaceable cog, might as well go ahead and get in the workforce and get paid before the bubble bursts again.

Re:Most software dev jobs do not need CompSci

[pla]

why saddle yourself with mountains of debt just to get a degree that's basically worthless for the "real world,"

Mountains of debt? Worthless?

I went to a state school (admittedly one with a good rep for engineering), finished with a few $K in student loans that I paid off in my first year after graduating. I made double what my highschool and college friends did just in my internship. I had a job offer the day I graduated, as well as a non-stop stream of recruiter calls.

And today as a seasoned professional, I make 3x the median educated professional income in my area.

If you want to call that worthless - Hey, sorry you couldn't make it, but thanks for contributing to the dropouts that keep me well paid! ;)

Re:Most software dev jobs do not need CompSci

[david_thornley]

FWIW, my son is just completing his second year in a CS program, specializing in software engineering. I'm following his progress fairly closely, and he is learning real computer science.

Re:Computer Science is not IT and at times not cod

[Anonymous Coward]

Computer Science is not IT and at some time / schools not even coding, web site work and more.

Upon reading this comment, I suddenly understood why my university required me to take all those painful semesters of writing courses.

Re:Laziness and self-entitlement (and dumbness)

[Anonymous Coward]

What you wrote doesn't seem specific to the topic, just generic Republican talking points. So while you're at it you may as well prescribe lower taxes on the "job creators" and corporations, and cutting regulations.

Why would the smartest students pursue CS when so many CS / IT career fields have artificially low wages due to the glut of H-1B visas that large corporations insist are absolutely necessary? So much for letting the free market work out the supply & demand issues. Government bows to the will of corporations yet again. And that's why many of the brightest students go to Wall Street rather than Silicon Valley.

Re:Computer Science is not IT and at times not cod

[Jane Q. Public]

This is very similar to what I was going to say.

Computer Science and Programming Job are often related, but also often not. And Computer Science and IT often don't even very much resemble one another. And I've done all 3.

Why learn CS only to train your H1B replacement?

[walterbyrd]

There is just no way to compete with 3rd world wages. If a job can't be offshored, it will be filled by a visa worker - unless the job requires a top secret clearance.

I am doing contract work for IBM. There are barely any Americans left. And IBM is doing everything they can to eliminate what few US jobs still exist.

I am amazed any Americans want to study CS.

Why should any American kid bother?

[Anonymous Coward]

All the big computer-related firms in the US (Microsoft, Apple, Google, Facebook, etc) are working VERY hard to end the limits on importing high-tech workers from abroad and several of them are currently involved in a court battle that includes the tactics they were using to suppress the wages and benefits of all the computer-related workers in the US (As the "big guys" in the industry, THEY set the "industry standards" for wages and benefits, so their collusion to rip-off thier own workers actually hurt ALL computer people in the US).

The Democrat party is full-on in support of the "immigration reform" these big businesses want (the Democrats currently control the White House and the Senate) and the so-called "Establishment" Republicans (the party bosses in D.C., many of their wealthy funders, the "money is EVERYTHING" people from the north-eastern region, and most of the long-time office holders) are also on-board for these "reforms" and are promising/threatening to do them late this year (the Republicans currently control the House) so, without regard to what the American people may or may not want, the "fix" is pretty-much in; sooner or later the wages of high-tech workers are going to plunge further downward. Government clearly DOES NOT WANT AMERICANS DOING HIGH-TECH WORK. This is a fact, no matter what they SAY. Government TAXES and REGULATES the things it wants to reduce. Government SUBSIDIZES and DE-REGULATES (removing limits is a form of de-regulation) the things it wants to increase.

Any young American who wants a career it's impossible to be fired from, with a good salary and benefits, and with an absurdly unrealistic retirement package that will never be reduced, should major in some nebulous "public policy" field and get a job in the federal government regulating all the people who were stupid enough to try to be productive citizens. You don't have to KNOW anything or have any experience doing anything productive to be well-paid stopping other people from being productive... AND you'll be swimming WITH the currents (doing what government wants)

Re:Why should any American kid bother?

[meta-monkey]

Mod this man up. He knows what he's talking about.

Not even related to computer jobs, I would not want to be working for a for-profit company in the US, at all. The pendulum has swung so far in the direction of capital and away from labor that people are basically slaves these days. The management squeezes you for every penny, no raises, no bonuses, doing the work of three people they've already laid off, because they know you'd have a hard time getting a job elsewhere. All the while conspiring to depress your wages through illegal collusion ala Steve Jobs and crew or through H1-B immigration. And it's not because they're evil (although they are frequently evil) it's because their job description demands it. They are required to "maximize shareholder value." You don't maximize value by handsomely rewarding employees, you maximize value by squeezing the maximum performance you can out of them for as few dollars as possible. If they don't, the shareholders will fire the CxO or just dump the stock.

I'm very glad I work for a non-profit organization.

Re:Why should any American kid bother?

[david_thornley]

Or they try to take care of their employees. Turnover is expensive, and it's worthwhile to spend a little extra to try to keep it down. Similarly, employees that identify with the company will be more productive, particularly when creativity and initiative are part of the job.

I've worked at different sorts of companies. Fortunately, I'm quite competent at what I do, so I was able to leave the employers I didn't like, leaving some of the less competent people behind. I've been at places with turnover in excess of 50% a year (and the ones who left were the more competent ones), and I'm now at a place with virtually zero turnover in the part of development I'm involved with.

Re:Why should any American kid bother?

[meta-monkey]

I guess I've just seen more friends of mine (who are competent engineers) getting squeezed hard while their company is reporting big profits and paying out dividends. I've been on contracting jobs where I'm one of the very few Americans and everybody else is an Indian on an H1-B.

Now, though, I work doing database programming at a not-for-profit hospital and I love it. Everybody who works here is on the same page. We love the mission as the organization is dedicated to healing people. We have record income and it all goes to improving patient care and compensating the employees. It's more like the employees are the owners and management works for us. Our CEO is doing a great job, everybody likes him, and we're going to be expanding further. It's kinda like being in Starfleet. We all could do something else, but we choose to work here because we believe in the mission. I'm very happy with my job.

Re:Why should any American kid bother?

[colinrichardday]

be the next Edward Snowden.

FTFY..

You mean I'll be dead at 40?

[VortexCortex]

Wow, I can't wait to be dead at 40, right around family having age. Sign me up!

Meh, it's not that bad

[rsilvergun]

Could be worse. And at least it's a little harder to offshore since there are cultural differences.

Re:Hot job market?

[Anonymous Coward]

More like fake job market.

No it is great if your from India and can qualify for a h1b1 visa then the market is full of opportunity. If you are causasian, east asian, or jewish, the big three racial subculture groups in the US most interested compsci than your going to be told "you don't fit their corporate culture" translated from HR bullshit speak "you won't work 80 hours a week for minimum wages and shit benifits".
----posting ac to avoid overly politically correct mods.----

Useful comparisons would be nice.

[DarwinSurvivor]

Here's the general (paraphrased) statistics from the article:

Percentage of degrees that year being "Computer Science"
1981: 2.2%
1985: 4.4% (noted as a peak)
2002 4.42% (noted as a peak)
2011: 2.76%

Number of graduates in a particular field during 2011:
Computer Science: 47K degrees
included Art & Performance: 96K
Communications and Journalism: 83K
psychology: 101K

The article make no mention of how many different "categories" of degrees there are, so a percentage means absolutely nothing. The article also compares the number of "Computer Science" graduates (a very specialized field) to categories like "Communication and Journalism" which include everything from newspaper reporters and tv anchors to video streaming technicians and cameramen.

These statistics actually look pretty good when you consider how many bullshit degrees are awarded in the "Art and Performance" department. Maybe we should start pushing out graduates in flash animation to try and bolster our numbers so these reporters will be impressed.

Re:Computer Science is not IT and at times not cod

[Redmancometh]

All I've got to say is I hope they aren't interested in either. Less competition, less supply, equilibrium settles on me with more pay :).

Re:Computer Science is not IT and at times not cod

[ArmoredDragon]

Try telling that to HR departments around the world. All too often I've seen jobs posted looking for LAN technicians saying they want you to have a Computer Science or related degree; a few of them pass on my resume when they see my degree is in Network Systems Administration (I'm not entirely sure if a person is doing it, because in these cases I get an email saying I don't meet the minimum requirement even though I meet ALL of their requirements listed, including their bonus/preferred requirements, just I don't have a CS degree, nor am I interested in getting one.)

Re:Why learn CS only to train your H1B replacement

[Kagato]

H1B consultants are now reaching the $100+/hr rate for developers. Supply and demand at work as the result of companies not investing in college hires. The pendulum is shifting that hiring from college is actually economical again.

I make a crap ton of money off shops that got burned with H1B and offshore and need experts to fix the systems.

Is that a bad thing?

[Brulath]

Why is it a problem that the percentage of computer science graduates, as a fraction of all graduates, isn't increasing? The number of students is increasing, so there are more graduates now than previously, but it's a problem because the proportion of those graduates completing computer science isn't higher? There are more degrees now than there were 30 years ago, that it hasn't decreased could be evidence of growth.

<capitalism>We should all panic if <our field> doesn't reach <arbitrary metric> within <arbitrary time period></capitalism>

Re:Is that a bad thing?

[wonkey_monkey]

This does sound a bit like the "there aren't enough [gender] [job title] in [field]!" stories you get from time to time.

So what?

[GrahamCox]

So people aren't flocking to become programmers?Good. It's not like the current rate has held technology back in any way - there are plenty of programmers - certainly enough to keep up with the rate that technology itself demands. More programmers wouldn't increase that, it would only make salaries lower. And that's probably why there seems to be a push from industry to get more people interested: more programmers = cheaper wages.

Re:Computer Science is the Humanities of Engineeri

[lister king of smeg]

Fascinating theories, ultimately useless.

what are you typing on? a computer, running a OS, running a browser, delivered to you by multiple routers and servers all running various servers(http. dns, dhcp), guess who wrote them, the protocols they use, and the maintain the infrastructure. That is all computer science.

Re:Why learn CS only to train your H1B replacement

[Darinbob]

Because technically, the visa workers are supposed to be paid the same as citizens. Ok, I'll wait until people stop laughing... The other thing is that when employers try to find the cheapest employees they end up with bad employees. Offshored programmers or engineers are the worst of the worst, often because you go through a broker or large IT house so that you have no opportunity to interview the actual workers, and the foreign companies have zero incentive to provide quality (especially since American companies are stupid enough to keep paying no matter how poor the quality of the work).

You can stand out if you're better than average, only that is a hard thing to do as a fresh graduate in anything. You can also find companies that are not as dysfunctional as IBM (which was never a highly desirable employer even 25 years ago).

When I went to college I changed from Com

[LanAnhNguyen]

When I went to college I changed from Computer Science to Business. I feel there are a couple reasons of this and why it hasn't changed... First off it takes a certain person to program, as stated above some people will take it in like a sponge and some people will just never get it right. (I had that part down) Secondly the poor funding and options in this area for colleges, I think sports teams get more funding than Computer Science. (That's how it was at my school.) I learned more off the interweb than I ever did from the classes.

Computer related is glutted it's Medical field now

[Trax3001BBS]

The words floating around /. and elsewhere there's going to be/is a glut of these with Computer Related degrees. If they listen to all these helpful hints, most should be looking at the Medical career, (where I started); as it's going to be big.

The way the hospitals are growing here (Three cities, three Hospitals) I tend to agree, never saw those with medical background buy land like they are now.

Also with or without obamacare there is no more single physician clinics anymore, they've had to be brought into the fold by the Hospital support clinics, just to survive.

Yep, getting ready for us baby boomer's :}

Re:Computer Science is not IT and at times not cod

[David_Hart]

Try telling that to HR departments around the world. All too often I've seen jobs posted looking for LAN technicians saying they want you to have a Computer Science or related degree; a few of them pass on my resume when they see my degree is in Network Systems Administration (I'm not entirely sure if a person is doing it, because in these cases I get an email saying I don't meet the minimum requirement even though I meet ALL of their requirements listed, including their bonus/preferred requirements, just I don't have a CS degree, nor am I interested in getting one.)

All the more jobs for the rest of us who realize that having a CS degree opens doors...

Personally, I'll never understand this attitude. Why would you not want to get a degree if it will open doors? It doesn't have to be expensive (most companies just check for the degree and the school rarely matters), you can do it online, and, if you investigate it, your employer may even pay for it.

Part, but not the whole

[s.petry]

Please don't take this as an argument against you, it's meant to argue against this chronic message that we see every month or so that everyone in the US needs to be a programmer. I agree that it takes a certain mindset to be a programmer, just like it takes a certain mindset to be a Fireman, or Soldier, or Doctor, or Plumber, etc... I'm not a programmer for a living for the same reason I'm not a graphics designer. Doing either of those things for a living requires the ability to remain in abstract thought for long periods of time, very much like an artist.

Honestly though, I don't see the big deal. If everyone in the US was a programmer we'd be naked and starve to death in short order. Our houses would burn down and our country would be invaded and taken over. The Allegory of the Artisan is very fitting here, and as with most things Socrates explains this dilemma very well.

A secondary issue is that the a large portion of the population does not want to work any more than necessary to survive. It's not laziness for most, this is a normal and rational way of thinking. I have food on the table and a roof is over my head, life is good. It's takes exceptions to move beyond that, thankfully we have always had those types of people to spare.

I agree with your points, and am more disagreeing with this latest "everyone needs to be a programmer" message. Society needs all kinds of people thinking all kinds of ways in order to function. I'm just fine with that.

If society really wanted to change things then there would be incentives to do so. Who does society compensate better, a Lawyer or a Lead Developer? Lead Graphic Artist or Politician? Technical writer or Paralegal? I could go on and on with that one all day, so will get to the point. People that are above average tend to try and get the most compensation for their abilities. If being a Lawyer has better compensation than being a Lead Developer, guess where most people will gravitate? Society does not want change, or at least executives in companies don't. If they did, they would be paying programmers with 6 years experience more money than their latest marketing "Rock Start" who just got his MBA. They don't! If you want to make the big bucks you go into the business side of the house, period.

Re:Part, but not the whole

[Miseph]

In summary: if you're talented and exceptional and want to make the most money you can, you become a specialist in the art of making money, not in the art of making code. The business people are the ones calling shots and signing checks... any genius should be able to see how this leads to them getting all the shots called in their favor and all of the biggest checks being written out to them.

Re:Part, but not the whole

[ranton]

I agree with your points, and am more disagreeing with this latest "everyone needs to be a programmer" message.

I hardly think that wanting the number of CS students to go up a little from 4.4% is the same as wanting everyone to be a programmer.

If society really wanted to change things then there would be incentives to do so. Who does society compensate better, a Lawyer or a Lead Developer? Lead Graphic Artist or Politician? Technical writer or Paralegal?

Society doesn't really care that much how many CS students there are. But plenty of people who are interested in advancing society want more of them. That is why they are trying to fix some of the issues that are hindering smart people from entering the field. Compensation is the factor they have the least control over, so it is rarely part of their solutions (even though it would have the most effect).

Re:Part, but not the whole

[StripedCow]

Solution: spend 5 years making as much money as possible.
Then, spend the rest of your life enjoying your hobbies.

Re:Part, but not the whole

[s.petry]

But plenty of people who are interested in advancing society want more of them.

Farmers do nothing to advance society? Welders? Carpenters? Your bias is showing.

Compensation is the factor they have the least control over, so it is rarely part of their solutions (even though it would have the most effect).

Compensation is the factor that most intelligent people are looking for, especially when you consider that many of these graduates are starting their careers with large debt hanging over their heads. If "Society" needed more programmers they would be paying them the same compensation they would a business major, assuming equivalent education and experience. They don't.

Your definition of "Society" is seems to be horribly distorted. I gave the Allegory of the Artisan as definition of society, and your retort is that society does not have very much control over compensation. That would only be true if society revolved around executives, and it doesn't. They are "part" of society, not the "whole" or even most important part of society. Socrates explains this very well, and I have yet to see a better definition.

Re:Part, but not the whole

[s.petry]

Pretty much, but I think it goes beyond this. If you are going to college and going to end up with a 6 figure pile of debt, how many of those people want to keep that millstone around their neck for longer than possible? Again, this is a society issue. It could be more cost effective to get a CS degree, there could be tons of grants for an eduction that people claim society needs. We don't see them.

Re:Part, but not the whole

[ranton]

Farmers do nothing to advance society? Welders? Carpenters? Your bias is showing.

There is a difference between keeping society going and actually advancing it to become something better. My dad is a farmer, and he is the hardest working person I know, but he does the exact same job now that he did in the 70s. The only difference is better machinery created by engineers and better seeds created by biologists. It was engineers and scientists that changed the world from 90% farmers in 1800 to 2% today, not hard working farmers. My dad's job is necessary to sustain life, but it does not advance society.

Science and technology are the backbone of progress in our civilization. On top of that are the people who find new and industrious ways to implement these discoveries. And then there are the 95+ percent of people who live their life in a way that would only create the rate of progress we saw from 1900 BC - 1900 AD, where it was measures by the century instead of by the year.

If "Society" needed more programmers they would be paying them the same compensation they would a business major, assuming equivalent education and experience. They don't.

That is assuming society understands how much it needs programmers. It doesn't. That is why many powerful people are trying to change this perception.

The problem is that it is incredibly hard for a person's own labor to be more profitable than simply rent seeking, which is basically what all business boils down to in the end. That is why business majors and lawyers are able to make more money than engineers, not because society values them more.

I gave the Allegory of the Artisan as definition of society, and your retort is that society does not have very much control over compensation. That would only be true if society revolved around executives, and it doesn't. They are "part" of society, not the "whole" or even most important part of society. Socrates explains this very well, and I have yet to see a better definition.

By "Allegory of the Artisan" I assume you mean the city allegory in books II through V of the Republic (after googling I only see the term Allegory of the Artisan in Slashdot posts by you and some ACs who I assume are you). Socrates never gives any definitions of justice in the Republic, it is more of a thinking exercise told through a dialogue. He basically gives out an exhaustive number of definitions and then proceeds to show how they fall apart. The Republic is great because it makes people think, but it is very hard to not take many statements out of context.

As long as property rights exist, you will have rent seeking behavior. It is unavoidable. And left to its own devices any society with strong property rights will reward people who put effort into rent seeking behavior as opposed to being an artisan. It is a byproduct of a legal system that allows people to own property that could later be traded for services. The fact that these people make most of the money in our society does not even hint at the possibility that we value their work more.

Re:Part, but not the whole

[s.petry]

There is a difference between keeping society going and actually advancing it to become something better. My dad is a farmer, and he is the hardest working person I know, but he does the exact same job now that he did in the 70s.

Read your first sentence, which is absolute nonsense and more bias (either ignorant or willful). If your dad is really a farmer, I mean a real farmer not a guy with nice garden, then he should be laughing at you and feeling ashamed of raising such a person. Farmers do not make the latest greatest wizzbang game for idiots, or plugin to social media, the changes made are much more gradual. Agriculture is not some arcane process that never received improvements. Farmers have increased each the quality and quantity of food harvested, in addition to increasing our ability to store and gather this food. A piece of code dos so much less for society, so stop trying to self grandiose your job. You are not better than a farmer, and I would wager that your job in the grand scheme of things is actually pretty useless to society. (A fair speculation based on the biases and ignorance you have argued with thus far, in addition to the narcissistic tendency to increase self value based on incorrect generalizations and demeaning others with those same generalizations.)

If you are trying to blame how executives have stopped farmers from doing agricultural work and abused "executive" offices to stop agriculture growth as a whole then you are not just a fool, but an ignorant fool.

By "Allegory of the Artisan" I assume you mean the city allegory in books II through V of the Republic (after googling I only see the term Allegory of the Artisan in Slashdot posts by you and some ACs who I assume are you).

Nope, there is a long series in "The Republic" referred to as "The Allegory of the Artisan" and it relates to jobs in society. If you try to google an answer you don't get wisdom, so read the book. Without all of the groundwork laid in defining all of the precursors for a society, like justice, you will just misinterpret the words (as people frequently do when they falsely believe a quick search makes them knowledgeable).

I've shown you your bias twice now, and pointed you to Socrates' words twice. It's your choice to fix such obvious ignorant bias, not mine. I'm guessing you won't, and guessing that you will still argue that you are so much better than a farmer. Not because it's true.

Re:Part, but not the whole

[ranton]

Farmers have increased each the quality and quantity of food harvested, in addition to increasing our ability to store and gather this food.

Have you ever known any farmers? I grew up in a small farming community a few miles outside a town of about 10k people, and I assure you that they change less than any group of people I have yet met. There are plenty of engineers and biologists who have been increasing our ability to store and gather food, but other than buying the new equipment that other professions have created the work of most farmers has not changed in the last 50 years. And before 1800, their work hadn't changed must in the previous 1000 years.

Before the technological advances of the past 200 years there was basically no advancement in society from one generation to the next. From 1300 - 1700 the average yearly growth was about 0.2% compared to the 2-3% yearly growth over the past 100 years. The vast majority of the population does not advance society in any meaningful way. The industrial revolution and later the information revolution are responsible for our society's growth, not the average artisan.

A piece of code dos so much less for society, so stop trying to self grandiose your job. You are not better than a farmer, and I would wager that your job in the grand scheme of things is actually pretty useless to society.

I don't really understand the animosity you are showing. Why do you feel that it is such a negative thing to be a productive and useful member of society? Not everyone needs to be doing groundbreaking work to have value. Like I said before, my dad is the hardest working man I know and his work is very valuable to society. My dad and my childhood neighbors are also some of the best people I know. When he had a heart attack last year, four of his friends did his entire harvest for him and refused to be compensated. I don't know where you got a chip on your shoulder that makes you so defensive when someone points out that the majority of people just want to live their life instead of making technological progress.

Nope, there is a long series in "The Republic" referred to as "The Allegory of the Artisan" and it relates to jobs in society.

Please provide a reference of anyone calling any section of The Republic as The Allegory of the Artisan. I really think that is just a term you used in some college term paper (or perhaps a professor you had used the term). Socrates is my favorite ancient author, so I am pretty sure I know what parts of The Republic you are referring to, but using terms you made up to try and make people feel stupid is very sad.

If you try to google an answer you don't get wisdom, so read the book.

I have read the book. More than once in fact. And I'm not sure why you say Google can't help you gain wisdom, but it surely can help you find definitions of terms used by someone trying to sound smart. The lack of any reference to the term you used outside of Slashdot posts comes pretty close to proving that the term is not in wide use among literary scholars.

and pointed you to Socrates' words twice.

If you have to point someone to the words written by someone else, it is usually because you don't really understand your own argument. One of my physics professors used to say that if you cannot explain a concept to a layperson, you don't really understand the topic yet either. Constantly pointing someone to a literary figure is just an attempt to use their authority when your own argument is weak.

Re:Part, but not the whole

[s.petry]

and I assure you that they change less than any group of people I have yet met.

I never saw that one coming did I? No, don't answer that rhetorical question. If you can not see bias when it's spelled out for you at least have the courtesy of keeping your thoughts to yourself. No, you are not better than someone else even if you own the latest gizmo.

Please provide a reference of anyone calling any section of The Republic as The Allegory of the Artisan.

Read the book, this is what Socrates calls the section. I don't care that you can't google it, and no I will not make a citation of 40 pages of small print (This is a low estimate, my copies of the book are at home and I'm at work.).

If you have to point someone to the words written by someone else, it is usually because you don't really understand your own argument

So if I say "Read Einstein for an easy way of working with numbers in your head instead of on paper." your answer is that I either have to recite 30 pages of material or I don't know the information. Shear Brilliance! No, not really. That's about the most idiotic thing I have heard in a long time. Wisdom does not come in 100 word sniplets on a web site, and if you truly believe what you just stated you are evenn more mentally handicapped than I estimated previously.

No more, I'm done wasting my time with either a troll or complete idiot.

Re:Computer Science is not IT and at times not cod

[Jstlook]

Reading comprehension please. He says he *has* a degree; this degree is in Network Systems Administration. Last I checked, this degree is *related* to Computers, right? The issue that employers have is that the title of the degree is not "Computer Science", despite it being a computer science degree. This is an issue of reading comprehension, and the lack thereof in the HR department.

Re:Laziness and self-entitlement (and dumbness)

[K. S. Kyosuke]

So, the buying power was equal to today's $11, but fifty years later, with economic productivity doubled or tripled through automation, it's only between $7 and $9, depending on place. Are you sure you aren't merely reinforcing his point?

Salaries have fallen

[evilviper]

Where is this "hot job market" exactly? The SF Bay area, where a typical salary is just enough to share an apartment with 3 other people, unless you're willing to do the 3-hour commute thing?

It's always a fight for me to find work, usually 100 miles away from the previous job, most likely because HR rejects every resume lacking any keyword on the job reqs, and I'm one of the GOOD ones, with a resume that includes senior positions in big companies you've heard of. I swear HR has gone underground in the past few years, and is recruiting exclusively from LinkedIn or something.

You're in for hell if you've got a student loan hanging over your head, and you're trying to break-in to IT with a blank resume. Hell, those companies that even ASK for any education specifically say they'll consider years of work experience as a substitute, so why go deep in debt for 4 years when you could be earning money instead?

And those "competitive salaries" aren't that great when the companies expect 80 hour work weeks that burn-out their employees in 2-3 years, or with the above difficulty in finding positions when desired, and whatnot. A smart kid in the middle of flyover country studying IT will just be the most qualified janitor in the local McDonalds.

Don't forget some lovely hoops, like companies requiring you meet recruiters in-person before even submitting a resume, or the horde of foreign spammers/telemarketers-cum-recruiters who don't know what state you're in, what you're looking for, or how much of your time they're wasting, and don't care.

Why not have your kid learn to weld, following big construction jobs around the country, earning time and a half paid overtime, more than most IT Pros working the same total hours?

Re:Salaries have fallen

[evilviper]

Point me to the job listings. They exist in only a tiny f fraction the number in tech hubs like California. Fortunately, California has plenty of dirt cheap land and housing, once you leave the greater urban areas.

Re:Salaries have fallen

[Common Joe]

It's always a fight for me to find work, usually 100 miles away from the previous job, most likely because HR rejects every resume lacking any keyword on the job reqs, and I'm one of the GOOD ones, with a resume that includes senior positions in big companies you've heard of. I swear HR has gone underground in the past few years, and is recruiting exclusively from LinkedIn or something.

You've almost got it. HR hires from consulting firms and one of the places consulting firms go is LinkedIn. That's right, boys and girls, you have to please a minimum of three layers to get a job. (Consultant, HR, Manager). You have to look good online, on paper, and in person.

Disclaimer: I don't have answers. I've been looking for about three years off and on (earlier in the States and now in Europe), but I know who calls me and who wants to talk to me: the consultants. I've physically walked into businesses (when I knew they were hiring) and asked for a name in HR but the front desk wouldn't even give me the time of day. When I went to CeBIT (a large convention here in Europe), I spoke with small companies, large companies, and consulting firms. The large companies pointed me to their website (which is takes a lot of time to fill in because they think they are special) and consultants dominated the floor. The few small companies that were there were very picky and want loads of experience in their particular area.

Re:Salaries have fallen

[Drethon]

I work as a contractor. No time and a half but paid OT nonetheless.

Re:Salaries have fallen

[Ryanrule]

If you have the skills being looked for, you will be contacted. I get an offer like once a week, many of them allow remote work.

Re:Salaries have fallen

[jittles]

I left California years ago. A previous employer paid to move me to my current location. They even paid me my California wages at the time. The cost of living here is a fraction of what it was for me in California. I have a 20 minute commute and live right on the beach. My raises haven't kept up with a Bay Area position, but I would have to get over a 50% raise to maintain the same standard of living that I have here. I've switched jobs a few times without much difficulty. It's very difficult finding a talented developer here, so anyone with skill gets snatched up quickly. Oh and I rarely work more than 40 hours a week. It's been wonderful.

Re:Salaries have fallen

[HeckRuler]

Iowa
We're looking for a C programmer with some DO-178 chops.
Hit me up, I get a small bonus.

Re:Salaries have fallen

[braindrainbahrain]

You speak wisely Kimosabe. There is a shortage of welders now.

Re:Computer Science is not IT and at times not cod

[s.petry]

I don't get it either, I'm assuming a translation to English issue. The "insightful" score just makes it more confusing.

CS not even viable?

[mpfife]

People SAY that CS is this big thing - but is it the real computer SCIENCE part - or do they mean code monkeys? CS was always meant to be much more theoretical than practical. About solving really hard problems in operating systems, efficient new kinds of hardware resource management, compilers, programming languages - not just writing the next web app.

I think computing is undergoing just as big a change now as it did when the .com era came for the first time in the last 90's. Programming is actually getting EASIER and more accessible to everyone. Heck, we've got game makers almost exclusively using engines off the shelf to make massively successful games - and most of them are barely programmers at all. They're script monkeys in Unity. Web companies are making online applications solely from java/ruby and other high-level script and database languages. None of these things require nor touch the difficult problem computer science traditionally focuses on. They're technology jobs - not science.

If I had to predict, the more traditional need of CS degrees are going to shrink and shrink as advances no longer require the bit-twiddling madness of the early years of computing. Hardware will easily have advanced so-as even the most inefficient algorithms for daily tasks will be just fine. No special knowledge needed. The small blobs of very high-perf code that will be needed will be done by small, very skilled CS majors (drivers, OS's, database cores, distributed memory systems, etc), but the majority of code/apps will be simply scripted/assembled together on top of these high-perf, highly-accessible API's. We already see it with abstractions like PhoneGap, Unity, etc.

Re:CS not even viable?

[ljw1004]

I think we saw it 20 years ago with VB and Delphi and similar RAD products. It democratized business computing, allowing every hotel to have a computerized checkin system tailored to its needs, every X business to have a Y system.

Re:CS not even viable?

[david_thornley]

Got news for you: your predictions apply to the present day, so I don't see any shrinkage.

Hardware is not advancing anywhere near as quickly as it did about ten years ago. That's about when increases in CPU clock speed almost stopped. We're getting good, reliable, large-capacity SSDs in all decent systems, so increases in disk capacity and speed are less meaningful. There will continue to be big improvements, but they won't be nearly as big as they were a decade ago, and they'll take longer.

Therefore, if you were right, you'd never experience any annoying delays while using your computers for everyday things. You'd never see an unresponsive app, unless it was really badly coded (like Visual Studio?). Malware wouldn't seriously slow down your machine, since your computer would have the resources to run it and your stuff.

Similarly, there are considerably fewer people, proportionally, involved in things like OS kernels and database engines. There are simply fewer of them out there. Almost all OSes out there are Windows, Linux-based, or BSD on a Mach micro-kernel with a fancy shell. The majority of apps are made with boilerplate and using pre-written frameworks. However, there's only so far you can simplify things. There is essential complexity, and there is accidental complexity. We've been doing a good job of getting rid of the accidental complexity. We've got a long way to go, but again we've done the biggest part of the job and further improvements will be slower and less dramatic.

why should they be? it'll get outsourced anyways

[0xdeaddead]

Kids may be young and a bit naïve, but they aren't dumb. All those big headlines about moving everything to India, Philippines over the last 20 years, and the utter lack of entry positions in big companies IT departments in the west would lead to this.

Honestly how can anyone be surprised?

That is the joke of STEM, all those jobs are quickly, and easily outsourced, so why bother?

Re:Computer Science is not IT and at times not cod

[0xdeaddead]

But it's always been about "and more" ..

Re:I don't blame them

[0xdeaddead]

I too am a victim of the office space life.

Re:Computer Science is not IT and at times not cod

[Anonymous Coward]

WTF?

What does installing video card have anything to do with CS? Or web pages?

That site you linked to list several different areas of IT janitorial jobs under "Computer Science". Most of that list has as much to do with Computer Science as construction worker has to do with Physics.

Re:Computer Science is not IT and at times not cod

[chrisautrey]

What's this reading comprehension thing you keep talking about. Is that something I can get with a Computer Science degree?

Re:Why learn CS only to train your H1B replacement

[WinstonWolfIT]

Okay wise-ass... what do you propose to do that isn't undercut by the third world? In the end it's net value delivered, is it not?

Re:Computer Science is not IT and at times not cod

[Trax3001BBS]

WTF?

What does installing video card have anything to do with CS? Or web pages?

That site you linked to list several different areas of IT janitorial jobs under "Computer Science". Most of that list has as much to do with Computer Science as construction worker has to do with Physics.

Coming out of that course they should of known the basics of a computer, how to build a computer if need be, it was in the syllabus -no matter what Computer Science is suppose to be. It was a Community College you purchase your degrees. It was after the fact that I realized that.

I haven't been to school since around '96 when I created my web page it was only in HTML, Java was just coming out.
I'm retired, before most of my jobs require schooling/training, mostly in house; as I'm sure most of you are required.

Not interested in cars or roads either

[erroneus]

When electricity was new, a LOT of people were bitten by the bug. Electrical tinkering was everywhere. You don't see that so much now. Occasionally you will see something interesting, but those individuals who still have an interest in it are rare. For most people, electrical devices and electricity are just a part of life.

Cars and roads and all the things that make civilization are all the same in this respect. And computers and all that? Moore's law is dead. The excitement is dead with it. More and more it is just business and daily communications and the like. It's not rare, novel or unusual and therefore not interesting to the masses.

We're witnessing the maturing of an industry. It will remain important, but the players will be fewer. And seriously, when was the last time you saw people lined up outside of CompUSA to buy the next version of Windows? That's literally decades ago and things have seriously gone downhill since that time. It's all normal and common infrastructure now.

It kind of makes me wonder what the next great technological wonder will be and how everyone will jump on it the way we all did with computers over the last what? 30+ years? We're kind of due for it.

Re:Not interested in cars or roads either

[Antique Geekmeister]

They are standing outside the Apple store to buy the next Iphone. It remains a vibrant field.

Re:Not interested in cars or roads either

[wonkey_monkey]

When electricity was new, a LOT of people were bitten by the bug.

The discovery of electricy being a pre-requisite for the invention of the bug zapper, of course.

Re:Not interested in cars or roads either

[ItsJustAPseudonym]

It kind of makes me wonder what the next great technological wonder will be and how everyone will jump on it

Slashdot Beta. Zing!

Re:why should they be? it'll get outsourced anyway

[erroneus]

Success depends on the ability to ignore quality issues and the costs that come with them. And it's RACIST to say that people of other nations can't do it as well as we can in the US.

Re:Laziness and self-entitlement (and dumbness)

[Chas]

Boomer? Uh. I was born in the 70's Beiber-boy. And I've been working since it was legal for me to work (so, about 25 years). I know all about shit jobs, having held them whilst working towards better jobs.

Re:Laziness and self-entitlement (and dumbness)

[Chas]

Hmm.

So in your "ethical" mindset, it's better to just mooch off mom and dad and bitch about not getting that 6-digit salary and a corner office because you have no work experience?

Re:Laziness and self-entitlement (and dumbness)

[Chas]

The former about the lazy ones aside, the latter isn't really meant as an insult. Just an observation.

It's no crime not to have the mindset to work CS/IT. It takes all kinds.

As to the dumb ones? Well, they keep our business plentiful (even if we want to kill them ten times a day) right?

Re:Computer Science is not IT and at times not cod

[mrchaotica]

For a LAN technician job, a network systems administration degree clearly counts as "related" to a CS degree. Therefore, this is a situation where blatantly lying on your resume is ethical (just explain once you get to the interview).

Re:Laziness and self-entitlement (and dumbness)

[Chas]

Ah. So someone wants to make it about politics now.

Not playing your game. But feel free to rattle off your political diatribe. Maybe if you get it out of your system you'll feel better.

Re:why should they be? it'll get outsourced anyway

[wonkey_monkey]

I've managed teams on five continents, and I haven't seen a single one work.

I wonder what the common factor could be...

Re:Computer Science is not IT and at times not cod

[Drethon]

Time to lie on resumes? Or tell the truth that HR doesn't recognize?

Re:Why learn CS only to train your H1B replacement

[Drethon]

Because I spent three years fixing the results of software outsourcing?

Re:Computer Science is not IT and at times not cod

[jbolden]

Network System Administration is a trade. Computer Science is an academic discipline. Those aren't related degrees or at least shouldn't be. A computer science undergrad degree I'd expect the person to be familiar with ideas from history / philosophy of science about the limits of positivism. I'd expect them to have taken theoretical math courses. I'd expect many of their programming courses to be in languages which teach them about computer languages not in practical computer languages. Languages like Oz are good for Computer Science while Network System Administration I'd want C, Java... In short I'd expect them to be prepped to go to grad school. On the other hand I'd have no expectations that they have any particular skills to a meaningful extent. Network System Administration I'd expect skills but not necessarily an education suited for academic work. Narrowly focused and more practical.

Now. Don't get me wrong 95% of employers want the Network System Administration degree not the computer science degree. But in the abstract they aren't equivalent at all.

IT is a great field.

[Maxo-Texas]

If you want to work nights, weekends and holidays.

Have low status and be viewed as a "cost center" by the business unless it is a software company.

Face regular "stack" ranking if it is a software company.

Hit a very hard age discrimination wall at age 45 to 50.

High likelyhood of your job being offshored or outsourced if your pay is good.

It's amazing more students don't go into the field.

Re:Why learn CS only to train your H1B replacement

[Maxo-Texas]

As of 2012, A major houston based food distribution company laid off over 400 IT people and replaced them with offshore / onshore employees of a major Indian INFOrmation SYStems firm with 110,000 employees.

The indian company used a combination of offshore (at $30 an hour), onshore ($60 an hour) and a novel "physically here in the US but legally employed in India ( at $30 an hour)..

The employees lacked the promised Sucky Ass Program skillset. Didn't matter.

The Sucky Ass Program is enormously late (as often happens).

As bad as things are- it will be a new person (maybe you) who is hired... not the 400ish people who were laid off. They get the shaft.

Boooring

[AndyKron]

Then, ten years later, they realize they chose one of the most goddamn boring jobs in the world.

Re:Computer Science is not IT and at times not cod

[umghhh]

Yes CS degree can give you that and a recipe for snake oil too which together with a marketing course can make you rich in no time.

Re:Computer Science is not IT and at times not cod

[StripedCow]

Computer Science is not IT and at some time / schools not even coding, web site work and more.

Indeed, with the current state of technology, it is MUCH easier to design some algorithm and proof it correct, than it is to write a working website/app, that is guaranteed to not break at some point in some browser on some platform.

What hot job market?

[morgauxo]

If you want to slave away at some startup working all your waking hours for a fixed sallary just to make the company grow then sure, the job market is hot. If you think that will get you anywhere other than out of a job when the company either folds (90% of the time) or is bought up by a bigger player you are just another naive kid.

Don't get me wrong, there are some good programming jobs out there. I found one! But they are the exception, few and far between.

Oh, and for you program all day long 50+ hours a week types... all those hours sitting at a computer.. that is NOT kind to your body!

Re:Why learn CS only to train your H1B replacement

[walterbyrd]

> Let me check... nope, I seem to still have a job, so you're not quite correct.

I guess, as long as there is one job left in the US then everything is just fine.

Re:Computer Science is not IT and at times not cod

[Ryanrule]

His degree is a diploma mill fake degree.

Don't blame them

[DontBlameCanada]

Good salary base, but every day I fight with ding-dong execs to ensure my team doesn't get completely overloaded. The constant pressure to work 16hr days 365 days/year while not being compensated for OT is draining and makes life hell at times.

I won't suggest my kids go into high-tech, unless they can get a sweet-sweet senior mgmt position.

Re:Star Wars, Hackers, and high school freshman

[__aaaipu5720]

A lot of nerds won't admit it, but I will. Hackers got me into computers.

Re:Computer Science is not IT and at times not cod

[jbolden]

There is an assumption you learn business technical support skills with that degree.

That's a bad assumption and one that should be changed. There should be and needs to be a clear distinction between forward going degrees and terminal degrees.

Computer science should include these kinds of courses and certifications for it if employers demand them.

Academic degrees are not driven by what employers want they are driven primarily by what professional / graduate schools want. That's one of the distinctions between academic and technical degrees. Academic degrees are not meant to be terminal.

Even electives like Biology these days teach powerpoint skills as it helps students who are non medical majors a real world use in the business world.

First off PowerPoint is rather easy. So if you mean that biology classes use PowerPoint, then that's fine. But how does biology teach PowerPoint? But in general I agree that colleges are polluting academic programs by teaching trades. They shouldn't be doing that, trade skills for an academic program belong in a professional or graduate school.

The missing statistic from the story...

[kenh]

OK, so the percentage of college students studying Computer Science as a major is between 3-4% annually for the last 30 years, but what percentage of the workforce is employed in careers that require computer science degrees? Do Computer Science careers really amount to more than 3-4% of the workforce? Using computers in your job doesn't require one to major in computer science in college, and many, many workers do things that don't require the ability to design and code an operating system or compiler...

Re:Computer Science is the Humanities of Engineeri

[kenh]

And?

Hundreds of millions of Americans own cars and use them daily, but that doesn't mean they need to study automotive engineering and design for four years in college...

I'm shocked that 3-4% of all college graduates are studying Compiler Design in college... (That is still a required course for CompSci majors, isn't it?)

Re:why should they be? it'll get outsourced anyway

[kenh]

And it's RACIST to say that people of other nations can't do it as well as we can in the US.

Why? Are all American programmers of one race? Do we not have, for example, Indian programmers here in the US that "can do it as well as we can in the US." since they are here in the US?

I think you went looking for race in the previous comment and believe you found it - the statement is either a correct or incorrect one, it is not racist in and of itself. You imagine the previous poster meant to say "people of other nations can't do it as well as we (white programmers) can in the US.". but they didn't say that.

Re:Computer Science is not IT and at times not cod

[Isaac-Lew]

I would think that a lot of the required classes for a Network Systems Administration degree would be the same for a CS degree...why not look into what it would take to obtain a CS degree?

Because it is hard and the jobs in CS suck

[Squidlips]

Long hours, lots of stress, and treated like crap by management.....

Not for everyone

[wcrowe]

I've been out of school a long time, but the market for CS people was pretty hot in the mid-80s and this was the pattern I observed: People would head down the CS path, thinking they would cash in on the great opportunities. However, a lot of them would switch majors after their first programming class, and more would drop after their first advanced class (data structures, or something like that), I have had many, many people tell me over the years that they took some programming and didn't like it. It's just not something everyone can do, or that everyone likes.

BA Johnson?

[DarthVain]

"the share of Computer Science degrees as a percentage of BA degrees"

I am not mathmagician however last I checked a Computer SCIENCE degree was part of a Bachelor of SCIENCE...

Therefor the answer to that question should be about 0%.

A more meaningful statistic might be as a percentage of BSc degrees.

Even comparing it again the total isn't really fairplay statistcally, as all it could be showing is that BSc are down, and that BA's are up (all those MBA's looking for Wall Street foolsgold perhaps). In fact you could have an increase in actual computer science degrees, but if the ratio of BA's has increased by more then 1:1, it will look like a decline.

Anyway when I went to school it was sexy, however after two bubbles, and employers treating graduates like cattle rather than professionals, it isn't so much. Most of the fairytale stories you see of people making it rich, are not about uber technical skill, but rather being a snakeoil salesman con artist, able to sell to investors, or screwing over everyone around you at the same time.

I am not sure I would ever recommend anyone get into the field as a primary field of study anymore. That said, I think everyone in all degrees should have some exposure to some basic computer science, otherwise they are not doing themselves any favors. At least enough to get some basic understanding and competence.

BA?

[smithmc]

Why does the intro refer to BA degrees? ICBW but I'd imagine most CS degrees are Bachelor of Science degrees (mine is).

Re:Computer Science is not IT and at times not cod

[Bengie]

CS is one of the harder degrees to get because it is crazy math heavy. a CS degree doesn't get you into using network equipment, it gets you into creating network equipment or network stacks. When my cousin started his CS degree, he told me how 80% of all students who take the 100 level courses drop out in the first semester because it's too hard, and that ignores students who may drop out later when it gets much harder.

You don't just "get" a CS degree, unless you get it from a crappy uni for the sole reason to have a piece of paper to get you past the HR filter. Have some pride.

Viable career path?

[Larry_Dillon]

With people like Zuckerberg saying that he only wants people under 30 and the reports of ageism in CS and IT fields, I can see why people aren't going into CS and IT. Some are going to do well but many are going to drop by the wayside. Why not go into a career where you are still valued are 50 or 60?

Re:Laziness and self-entitlement (and dumbness)

[geminidomino]

Well, they keep our business plentiful (even if we want to kill them ten times a day) right?

Wow, you're greedy. I just want to get to kill them once, then I'd be happy.

Zuckerberg has to fire himself!

[peter303]

he turned 30 yesterday

Re:Computer Science is not IT and at times not cod

[jbolden]

You do know that there are many postgrad programs for network design, theory, administration, and so on right?

No I don't. But if that is the case then a BA Computer Science, MS in Networking would be a good approach. The BS in Networking should be terminal not forward going.

Masters in Information Assurance and Computer Forensics are particularly lucrative right now...I am pursuing one right now.

Excellent choice of Masters.

20-somethings dont worry about ageism

[peter303]

Being 40 is so far off! If you are retraiinng for anew career in 30s you may consider skipping professional baseball and IT.

Re:Laziness and self-entitlement (and dumbness)

[Chas]

Well, they keep our business plentiful (even if we want to kill them ten times a day) right?

Wow, you're greedy. I just want to get to kill them once, then I'd be happy.

Only once? Then you're a miraculously phlegmatic specimen of CS/IT personnel.

Good!

[harvestsun]

More money for me!

Re:Laziness and self-entitlement (and dumbness)

[geminidomino]

No. Just very, very thorough. ;)

Re:Computer Science is not IT and at times not cod

[BranMan]

Edit it on your resume. Write it as Computer Science (Network Systems Administration). That way it matches the buzzword bingo and tells a real human what you have when they actually READ IT. (No pun intended)

Re:Computer Science is not IT and at times not cod

[david_thornley]

I assume they also want their electricians and plumbers to have degrees in physics. It makes about as much sense.

Re:Not how I did it (& it's math folks, not CS

[Opportunist]

I am there. I'm doing that. And I'm still walking that mile (feels more like a lightyear) in those boots. Unfortunately I can't (rather, should not) got into detail, but if anything can cure you quickly from any kind of respect you have towards C-level management, it's having to sit down when them in meetings regularly. You get to find out that they are little more than the sum of their insecurities, coupled with the fear that anyone could shatter their carefully crafted air of infallibility by finding out that their main source of information is the management journal they subscribe to and the snakeoil peddling consultant they hire every now and then.

Re:Why learn CS only to train your H1B replacement

[david_thornley]

And you can't get hired to fix what the offshored guys did?

India has some very cheap programmers. India has some very good programmers. I haven't noticed an overlap.

Risk and Liability

[tmjva]

With all the high profile investigation and legal cases (both criminal and tort) on what would think are seemingly normal behaving computer science professionals - I submit that the risk and liability of computer science puts off any wannabe's. Such risk and liability as where unknown 30 years ago. Today, Engineering, Chemistry, Math, & Biology seem relatively safer in that regard. Also my guess this leads to the glut of Law graduates lately. Today one needs a law degree to protect thyself.

In regards to one recent case, alternatives such as suicide have apparently become an attractive option.

Not everybody can do CS or program.

[bbsalem]

Politicians in California are all on the bandwagon about teaching students to program, let alone computer science. The reason for the flat interest in CS is that very few people in the population can do CS or should, and that not many more can write programs of any value. The idea that you can teach everybody to do programming is just wrong. It is roughly the same problem as teaching people to do mathematics of any depth or write fugues. Very few people will ever master either, and the percentages of people who are good computer scientists, or mathematicians or composers of music is pretty small and costant.

You might be able to teach more people how to use computers, even how to manage them, just as you can teach many more people some competance in quantative thinking, or how to listen to musical form. The idea of at least one Congressional candidate who comes from Stanford School of Economics that every child should learn something about how to code, or a similar idea from the State Superintendent of Public Instruction, is just a stupid pipe dream. If they wanted to really prepare students, they should teach them how to use technology, but maybe their resources would be better used to teach students to think and write critically. Judging by the traffic on social media they are doing neither and maybe that is what the business leaders really want.

Of course the other side of the coin is the unfulfilled promise of the digital revolution that it would enable everybody. That has not happened and I think that one of the reasons for the lopsided income distribution in the economy and the accompanying political elites is that CS and programming are skills for an elite. They are not skills that a majority of people can use. So, the argument about automating work so that more and more people are marginalized from their traditional jobs has not been met with compensating opportunity and the earning power of most has declined as that of the technical elite has raised. This is resulting, not going to happen, but happening right now, in push-back on the elites who have been given free reign in places like the San Francisco Bay Area. That is going to continue as the perception that the venture capitalists investors and tech firms don't really benefit the lives of but a very few and at the expense of a large majority.