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Orca Identified As 103 Years Old
guises (2423402) writes "The oldest known orca has recently been spotted off western Canada at an age of 103. A female nicknamed 'granny,' photos exist of her from the 1930s, where she can be identified by her distinctive saddle patch. The news has prompted calls for another evaluation of marine mammals in captivity — orcas in captivity usually don't live beyond their 20s."
"And get off my kelp!"
Table-ized A.I.
We clearly need to capture this whale and study it.
When things get complex, multiply by the complex conjugate.
I'm starting to think the only useful things a human can learn about wildlife in captivity is that it is no longer wild, nor alive, and we're despicable creatures for constraining other living beings for the rest of their, now-shortened, lives.
But, hey, at least some 'scientific' proof of how much we're being a bunch of dumbasses. This is the one field where I would expect serious scientists to shut down everything if they have proof they're doing more harm than good.
Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
impressive, since the first thing we do is compare to ourselves as some sort of We're #1! thing.
I always found this story of a 100 year old harpoon being found in the back of a modern whale to be a pretty wild reality check:
http://www.nature.com/news/200...
~.~
I'm a peripheral visionary.
I don't think it's the confinement. Wolves which range hundreds of miles are kept in captivity by humans in small areas (dogs), and they live far longer with humans than in the wild.
I think it's the water quality. Dog poop and urine don't mix with the air, they don't breathe it in. Marine animals on the other hand, DO breathe their own feces. Which is why it's essential to have a large volume of water per animal, as happens in nature.
I have guppy fish in a 30 gallon tank. They almost never live past 2 years in captivity. In nature however, guppies live 5 years or more.
I've been thinking of doing an experiment for quite a while. Take two groups of guppies, one in a common aquarium environment, say 10 guppies in a 10 gallon tank (1 inch of fish per gallon). The other group would live in a far less dense tank, maybe 5 guppies in a 200 gallon tank. (5 would be the minimum number since guppies are communal fish and they don't do well mentally unless they're in a group). And compare the fish lifespan in the the 2 groups.
This is the one field where I would expect serious scientists to shut down everything if they have proof they're doing more harm than good.
Not likely. Even if they were serious scientists, they're still working within the confines of an amusement park. They have bean counters to answer to, and to them the "science" derived from keeping the animals is a slight PR bonus, not their reason to exist.
... whatever
I agree, but unfortunately we live in this universe, and not that alternative one where everything is as it should be.
If people can't go somewhere (not too far away) and see animals, they will soon think CGI-versions of these creatures are good enough, which leads to extinction for the real ones. Unless they are really cute.
Whale watchers have carefully vetted systems to look for unique markings. In humpback whales, it is the underside of the flukes. If I get a decent picture of the ventral flukes on a local whale, I email to our local whale watching experts (with GPS coordinates). On grey whales it is the left side of the dorsal fluke and upper back for some odd reason.
While nobody has actually proven the markings are unique, they seem to work pretty well for long term population studies. Easier than flipper prints.
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
they probably die of boredom being confined in a box
"The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
Umm... A whale breathes air, as it is a mammal. Your guppy is a fish.
Well, if you RTFA they mention that she has another identifier: a notch on her dorsal fin. Even if the saddle patch was not unique - and I'm better prepared to take the word of the experienced whale spotting captain on this than the skepticism of random internet guy - it seems very unlikely that another orca would have both identical markings and an identical notch in her dorsal fin.
I don't think it's the confinement. Wolves which range hundreds of miles are kept in captivity by humans in small areas (dogs), and they live far longer with humans than in the wild.
I think it's the water quality. Dog poop and urine don't mix with the air, they don't breathe it in. Marine animals on the other hand, DO breathe their own feces. Which is why it's essential to have a large volume of water per animal, as happens in nature.
I have guppy fish in a 30 gallon tank. They almost never live past 2 years in captivity. In nature however, guppies live 5 years or more.
I've been thinking of doing an experiment for quite a while. Take two groups of guppies, one in a common aquarium environment, say 10 guppies in a 10 gallon tank (1 inch of fish per gallon). The other group would live in a far less dense tank, maybe 5 guppies in a 200 gallon tank. (5 would be the minimum number since guppies are communal fish and they don't do well mentally unless they're in a group). And compare the fish lifespan in the the 2 groups.
Dogs have co-evolved with humans for hundreds of years. We'd expect them to be fairly well adapted though they can still get some serious psychological issues.
Cats haven't been around as long, but cats are generally solitary to begin with so might do better with isolation.
Orca are highly social, perhaps moreso than humans. And an aquarium can hardly compare to the ocean in sensory complexity. It's basically like sticking a human in solitary confinement, it's inhumane and they tend to go crazy.
I love the idea of going to an aquarium and seeing Orca swimming around. But I can't imagine a way of doing so that doesn't essentially amount to torturing the poor animals, Seaworld and the like should absolutely be shut down.
I stole this Sig
You say that keeping a whale in captivity for education and entertainment is wrong, because it dies sooner than in the wild (which btw is not proven by this single grandmother killer whale). But I am just curious: the beef and pork you eat is also 'grown' in cages. We over eat purely for entertainment (you cannot convince me we need a 400g steak, that is entertainment), and since kids have to learn how to prepare food, it will be used for education too. So how is that different?
Yes, humans are the dominant species on the planet. And yes, we abuse animals sometimes. I do not think there is a problem with Sea World. I think the major problem is that we harrass animals also in the wild. Whales are affected by the noise of ship engines, and all marine life is affected by the pollution we produce. Stop complaining about Sea World, and just try to make this world cleaner. Then you make a real impact.
Dogs have co-evolved with humans for hundreds of years...
Cats haven't been around as long, but cats are generally solitary to begin with so might do better with isolation.
Dogs were first domesticated by humans something like 15,000 years ago. Cats were kept as pets by the Egyptians almost 4,000 years ago.
So, um, your numbers are a bit off ;)
Dogs have co-evolved with humans for hundreds of years...
Cats haven't been around as long, but cats are generally solitary to begin with so might do better with isolation.
Dogs were first domesticated by humans something like 15,000 years ago. Cats were kept as pets by the Egyptians almost 4,000 years ago.
So, um, your numbers are a bit off ;)
The bad news is I write slashdot comments when I've very sleepy.
The good news is that my memory of writing that post happened while I was awake, so I didn't have a dream about posting on slashdot!
I stole this Sig
I'm taking my wife on vacation to a resort. She has always wanted to swim with dolphins, and given the recent hate mongering about captive cetaceans I anticipate it the opportunity will be lost forever in the US within 15 years. It's unfortunate our kids won't have the same opportunities.
Oh, boo-hoo. Take a boat offshore, bob around in the water for a bit and if any dolphins want to swim with you, they can. There are plenty of places where they do.
Taking this campaign to its logical conclusion, they will probably eventually call for a closure of all zoos.
There are more reasons to run a zoo than simply to entertain the gawking masses.
Oh, and god forbid you go see animals on safari. That's exploitation as well.
Who says that?
Your tasty snack is based on the suffering of dairy cows, who live for only a few short years before they are brutally killed and ground into burger. How can you live with yourself?
While still holding the view that cetaceans shouldn't be kept in captivity for little more than entertainment purposes? Pretty well, actually.
Your basic cow has been domesticated for centuries. Living on a farm in a herd and getting turned into burgers is what a cow is these days. It's not like they're highly intelligent or highly social animals. Release a cow into the wild, and it wouldn't have the capacity to understand that it was anywhere other than on a bigger farm.
systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
No advancing of marine mammal knowledge happens in these theme parks, apart from discovering that each and every time the animals in question have poorer health (physical & mental), and die sooner.
And yes, of course many die in the wild, but by your reasoning we should keep everyone in captivity, as people die in the wild - doesn't that seem rather bizarre logic?
Seaworld exists to make money. That's it. Their scientific endeavours are of severely limited importance to the field, and while their animal rescuing attempts are honourable, they are rather hypocritical in the face of their own record regarding the treatment of their own animals.
Don't worry, it's okay to enslave, break, torture, and slaughter creatures capable of feeling pain and suffering - as long as they're not from the same species as you. http://topdocumentaryfilms.com...
Wolves which range hundreds of miles are kept in captivity by humans in small areas (dogs), and they live far longer with humans than in the wild.
Dogs get taken out for walkies at least once per day, or they start to go crazy and become unhealthy. Captive orcas never have the equivalent. It's the equivalent of a dog getting all it's exercise by walking round and round the coffee table. I wouldn't expect such a dog to have the same lifespan as a dog that's been out for walks.
Don't be an asshole. The OP is right. Of course there are varying kinds of intelligence, but Orcas are near relations to dolphins, and both show higher intelligence than wolves or dogs in pretty much any measure.
The water in these tanks is not only filtered, but runs through protein skimmers and usually UV sterilization, too. The amount of feces (and urine) the animals are drinking or otherwise absorbing is small. Nitrates are A Bad Thing to most marine life.
I have guppy fish in a 30 gallon tank. They almost never live past 2 years in captivity. In nature however, guppies live 5 years or more.
I would say that speaks more to your skill about taking care of fish then anything else. If I omit fry my fish live usually past the upper end of the age limit.
The sea world tank in San Diego is 7 million gallons and has 10 wales, that's approximately 100,000 ft^3 per whale. Further the filtration on the tank runs 30,000 gallons per minute it takes approximately 3 hours to filter 7 million gallons. Water cleanliness is not the issue, the whales and dolphins are stressed from from loud noises of children and not being able to travel, they are fed obscene amounts of antacids to try to minimize the stomach ulcers.
Knowledge = Power
P= W/t
t=Money
Money = Work/Knowledge so the less you know the more you make
Just like Zoos, Seaworld does a LOT for education. Seaworld and most reputable zoos also funnel a tremendous amount of money into conservation efforts.
people who would otherwise not even know whales exist (its just something in a book, something they might see...someday...maybe) get to see them up close. to learn about them. to learn about the problems they face in the wild. to learn about what human pressure on the environment is doing to them. no, seaworld isnt ideal for the individuals kept there, much like many zoos in smaller cities arent nearly as good for the animals as the larger refuges or zoos like the San Diego.
But they still do a LOT for public education, getting people to understand that maybe burning down rainforest isnt a good idea, that buying from certain companies or certain products leads indirectly to financing poaching or habitat exploitation.
yes those individuals arent in ideal conditions in many cases. but beacuse of the education opportunities provided by their presence, we can swing public opinion to help and make things better for many times larger wild populations. we can get people to get behind preservation and conservation. to demand better fishing practices, to demand better stewardship.
im an environmentalist and believer in the well treatment of animals, but here is where i diverge from folks who think the zoos and seaworlds of the world should all be shut down: i absolutely reject that these places have no value*. their biggest value is, and always has been, education of the masses who otherwise would know and care nothing. and if we can achieve that goal, i believe the planet will be for it. maybe someday we can reach the point where zoos are no longer necessary, but i dont think we're anywhere near that state of affairs yet.
*that's not to say places dont need improvements. And I believe the "zoo" Reno NV is a joke that ought be shutdown, since it's just a guy with a couple kennels stuffed with lions. there is a difference between a reputable Zoo and someone inspired by PT Barnum.
The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
There are numerous examples of highly advanced behaviours in Orcas, e.g. hunting strategies that require significant forward planning and close co-operation to pull off. E.g. washing seals off ice floes by swimming in tight formation to create a large bow wave. They also have complex social structures and behaviours, as with other dolphins and most whales generally. Mothers have been seen to teach calves hunting skills, e.g. pods that beach-hunt mothers have been seen "instructing" calves on how to do it, even pushing them toward the beach. This is clear evidence of culture - a very high-order behaviour. There is also strong evidence that Orcas have languages, differing significantly between different groupings.
In "Blackfish" it was reported that a pod of Orcas, that had had calves taken before, adopted a strategy to try foil the hunters. They split up with one group of adults swimming down one sound, breaching regularly to attract the attention of the hunters and divert them; while another group of mothers swam quietly with the calves down another sound (unfortunately, the hunters had a spotter aircraft). That story, if true, shows incredibly advanced planning, problem solving and organisational abilities.
You could go on and on. There is, to my understanding, *ample* evidence that these are *highly* intelligent animals, and are used to living very social and inter-dependent lives. On the latter social aspect, their needs potentially may even be much greater than ours.
I use Friend/Foe + mod-point modifiers as a karma/reputation system.
Is that two-factor authencetacean?
I know what you are getting at, and please don't mistake me for a troll, but they are not *highly* intelligent. You could call them *relatively* intelligent, compared to other animals, but you make one statement that completely eclipses any measure of intelligence possessed by Orca "(unfortunately, the hunters had a spotter aircraft)" When compared to humans, all other animals are a thick as bricks.
That doesn't mean we should treat them like shit, though. I don't condone how many animals are treated, but I also don't like when people try to class any particular group as *highly* intelligent when the reality is not quite the same.
It was recently discovered, and almost celebrated, that apes could determine which cup contained more juice by judging only the flow of juice into it (the cups were opaque). It showed they had a heretofore unseen grasp on quantitative reasoning.
A small human child can be easily confused by taking a biscuit and breaking it in 1/2 thus now having 2 biscuits if an argument over who has more biscuits breaks out. Or you can take different numbers of sweets, say 7 and 9 and by spacing out the 7 so they make a longer line than a more closely packed 9 you can confuse a child, because the parts of their brain responsible for quantitative reasoning hasn't devoted, but none of this would ever work on an adult.
Animals, for all the intelligence people try to attribute to them, barely measure up to an underdeveloped human child.
It is still our responsibility to treat them with respect regardless, just as we'd take care of a mentally handicapped person, and do our best to give them as normal a life as possible, and not simply lock them away so we don't have to deal with them.
As someone who used to work with research mice A LOT, I can tell you that captive mice (yes, the normal "wild-type" mice) are considered very old after 18 months, but in the wild they live around 4 years. My theory is that the real wild-type mice, ie the ones out in the field, get lots of excercise and have reduced caloric intake. The captive research mice have all the food and water they could ever want 24/7 and live in tiny boxes with no exercise wheel. Yes, the captive mice don't get diabetes or atherosclerosis, but they're still not living as long...
Either that, or they're so inbred it makes GoT seem tame!
> Dogs are wolves? Whales are poop-breathing fish?
>
> Is this really the state of public education these days?
Clearly not someone that was ever forced to read any Jack London.
Yes. Dogs are devolved wolves. This is more readily apparent in some breeds. Some dogs are still crossbred with wild wolf stock to this day.
There is also an originating species that has been defined for the domesticated cat.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
No, I think that planning and collaborating count as 'highly intelligent'. Human children are bad at nearly all the things that were mentioned (long term planning, teaching, general communication, etc.)
Our inability to measure animal intelligence by our human-centric values doesn't indicate that they're not intelligent, it indicates that we know less than we think about how to quantify that sort of thing. By nearly every measure, those orcas would find us USELESS in the water. Orca scientists would lament our ability to think effectively in 3 dimensions and do all sorts of things that they're cognitively evolved to do.
Human hubris keeps us from recognising that other animals have exceptional intelligence because we're so concerned about measuring their abilities against ours. Our accomplishments as a species are undeniable, but to a certain extent, our dominance on the planet is a bit of an accident of timing and luck. If you've read Guns, Germs and Steel, you'll understand the parallel I'm trying to draw--sometimes the winner isn't necessarily the smartest or best, but the ones that had some luck early on and have circumstance on their side.
In any case, we almost certainly agree that keeping animals of this level of intelligence--whether we agree precisely on the degree or not--in captivity is immoral. It's effectively torture and cruelty; however you measure human intelligence, we should be able to recognise THAT.