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Gen. Keith Alexander On Metadata, Snowden, and the NSA: "We're At Greater Risk"

An anonymous reader writes with some snippets pulled from a lengthy Q&A session at The New Yorker with former NSA head Keith Alexander, in which Alexander defends the collection of metadata by U.S. spy agencies both abroad and within the United States: "The probability of an attack getting through to the United States, just based on the sheer numbers, from 2012 to 2013, that I gave you—look at the statistics. If you go from just eleven thousand to twenty thousand, what does that tell you? That's more. That's fair, right? [..] These aren't my stats. The University of Maryland does it for the State Department. [...] The probability is growing. What I saw at N.S.A. is that there is a lot more coming our way. Just as someone is revealing all the tools and the capabilities we have. What that tells me is we're at greater risk. I can't measure it. You can't say, Well, is that enough to get through? I don't know. It means that the intel community, the military community, and law enforcement are going to work harder."

160 of 238 comments (clear)

  1. probabilities? by iggymanz · · Score: 4, Insightful

    why is this shithead talking of probabilities? let's talk about REAL attacks. Like the one where the government of an immigrant called our Homeland Security morons and actually warned us about someone. And our Homeland Security statsi did exactly nothing. Then, the person who was the subject of that call blew up the finish area of the Boston Marathon. For that matter, what about 9/11, our intelligence and national police watching those Saudi terrorists for years to see what they would do; well, we saw what they did.

    1. Re:probabilities? by Kremmy · · Score: 2

      He's talking probabilities because that's all they base anything on these days. When we have a presidential election, the results are announced the same day through statistics and probabilities then an awful lot of votes get lost in the noise. Our entire economy is debt, to the degree that there is no money which is not owed to someone else. There are no real attacks because the system is entirely predicated on the POSSIBILITY of attack. It's bullshit from the top down, at every level.

    2. Re:probabilities? by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If you had as little to show for your handiwork as he did, and what you did have was as dire as it is, you'd be speaking as vaguely as possible as well...

      The results that the NSA has achieved, apparently a hilarious variety of diplomatically touchy shenanigans extending throughout our alleged allies, are the ones that they just dig the hole deeper by talking about. They blew the pretense that they were playing defense for us and offense only against commie-nazi-fascists ages ago, so any talk about actual examples of competent work just makes them look creepy (and, unfortunately, they are pretty good at mass spying; but they apparently can't turn that into useful results, and their only plan is even more massive mass spying...)

      In the area where they could earn back some PR karma, they basically have fuck all to show, only vague handwaving about how their surveillance could have been so super effective that it stopped attacks before they even became visible, even as it repelled elephants. Unfalsifiabile; but even less satisfying than the assorted 3rd-string idiots the FBI has managed to perp-walk after foiling some pitiful little scheme that they had to be coached through.

      What the agency is good at are mostly things that they would just dig the hole deeper by talking about, and it's what they aren't good at that people would actually want to hear. So, we get vacuous nonsense.

    3. Re:probabilities? by PaddyM · · Score: 1

      That's what I don't understand. All this metadata, and yet they couldn't prevent Boston bomber? This is a guy who got away with murdering people. He should have been in prison. Instead "statistics say we need to invade everyone's liberties". I haven't seen a single reporter ask about the metadata they had on the Boston bomber. If they couldn't prevent that attack, what attacks are they actually preventing?

    4. Re:probabilities? by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 5, Funny
      Why listing to a gold-plated, brass-hatted liar?

      Hitler had Generals with more personal and professional integrity.

      This man has less veracity than a 70's era Politburo Apparatchik, more mendacity than Midway Huckster and greater venality than a Back Street Cutthroat.

      --
      "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
      Never been known to fail..."
    5. Re:probabilities? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The real profit from NSA's mass-spying spree isn't the terrorist menace detection, but the ability to forecast any possible collective action which might endanger the statu quo, and deactivate it without any real military action which might cause economic loss and discredit to the accommodated oligarchy. The so-called "Islam Spring" was just a testbed, with the massive people gatherings being driven through Twitter and Facebook. They still need to place the foreign attack threat as the frontend in order to appeal to the US nationalism to support their activities. But in the end, they are just one small branch in the Ministry of Truth from a modern version of Orwell's 1984. Snowden's revelations came also handy as a way to make people start accepting we live in a panoptic world, as described by Foucault... It's like saying "we will watch all your movements anyway, so just relax and hit "Like" in Facebook".

    6. Re:probabilities? by interkin3tic · · Score: 2, Informative

      While I hate the security theater industry, that's not quite a fair criticism. They get a lot of noise, and his name was misspelled.

      Infinitely more important though, lets not fall into the trap of using their logic. No government agency can protect against any possible psycho wanting to kill people. We should reject the premise that homeland security CAN protect us against such people if we just allow them to keep secret watchlists and give up our rights.

      Instead I'd frame it as "Homeland security did the best job they possibly could, which was pathetically short of the job we give them billions of dollars and our rights to do, thus we should scrap the whole department and the approach. Instead just close security holes where they don't interfere with rights. For instance: locking cockpit doors and having bomb-sniffing dogs good, secret no fly lists bad."

    7. Re:probabilities? by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

      It is not that they have gone to far, it's that staff members are using this information for personel gain; that's what's chilling.

    8. Re:probabilities? by BilI_the_Engineer · · Score: 1

      More importantly, we're supposed to be the land of the free and the home of the brave. Free or brave people wouldn't sacrifice their fundamental liberties for security.

      What an authoritarian asshole this guy is, though that's to be expected.

      --
      These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
    9. Re:probabilities? by bigpat · · Score: 1

      While I hate the security theater industry, that's not quite a fair criticism. They get a lot of noise, and his name was misspelled.

      Buttle or Tuttle? The movie "Brazil" seems like a foretelling documentary of the NSA and the US Federal Government and what happens when you turn the fight against terror into an issue of "Information Retrieval". Government "Big Data" is the new Big Brother.

    10. Re:probabilities? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Our entire economy is debt, to the degree that there is no money which is not owed to someone else.

      Spoken like a true twatbag that doesn't understand how economies work or get bootstrapped.

      1) The government has nothing, no money, no infrastructure, no military. So the government prints up some IOU's (the first of which go to the printer and paper manufacturer), then they use those IOU's to "buy" other stuff on credit, which they use to build their military and public infrastructure.
      2) People trade IOU's around like they're worth something. Anyone holding an IOU is a government creditor, and the government is indebted to them. This means that IOU's are worth exactly what the government's ability to continue functioning is worth.
      3) The government points out how much military protection and public infrastructure they've built, and periodically calls in their IOU's and destroys them. They call this process "taxation". They, of course, print more for future "buying" (a.k.a. borrowing against civilization).

      Now swap out "IOU" for "dollar", "euro", "pound", "ruble", "yen", "yuan", "renminbi", "rupee", etc.

      Now shit yourself when you realize how much of every economy is composed of debt. (Hint: 100%.)

    11. Re:probabilities? by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      He's talking probabilities because that's all they base anything on these days.

      I'm not too sure about that. What he's talking about is BS, not probabilities.

      If he wanted to talk about genuine, important statistics, then he would also be talking about the probability that anything the NSA is doing would actually prevent or deflect such an attack. Given the actual evidence we have so far, I would estimate that probability at close to zero.

      So we have huge costs, in economic, social, and personal freedom terms, with little probability of success.

      Sure sounds like worse than a waste of time to me.

    12. Re:probabilities? by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 4, Informative

      They get a lot of noise, and his name was misspelled.

      Irrelevant. It was misspelled in a way that is entirely common and should have been anticipated. Has nobody at NSA even heard of Soundex or any of those other word-matching algorithms? It would appear not, but in reality of course they have. So why weren't they using one or more of them?

      I'm doing work where such algorithms might end up coming in handy eventually. And I know about them and they are readily available. And I'm hardly a highly-paid NSA employee right now.

    13. Re:probabilities? by Kremmy · · Score: 1

      This is missing one critical point: the value.
      1) The government has nothing, no money, no infrastructure, no military.
      The government, in previous times, had a reserve of gold and various other assets which had value.
      There was a time when United States Dollars could be traded in for an amount of gold. This was printed on the bills themselves.
      You do not bootstrap an economy on the basis of nothing. You bootstrap it on the basis of something you have that has value.
      Leaving out the value part is where the system broke down. That's why we have a massive balloon of debt.
      Delusional governments doing delusional things. It's not how the economy works, the economy is not working.

    14. Re:probabilities? by MobSwatter · · Score: 1

      Yes, the probability is a real fact, I would have to say the it is true that the NSA is a greater risk...

    15. Re:probabilities? by aminorex · · Score: 2

      Gen. Alexander established the probability of an attack on the U.S. is 1. He did this by attacking the U.S. -- quite successfully, I might add: The terrorist is winning.

      --
      -I like my women like I like my tea: green-
    16. Re:probabilities? by aminorex · · Score: 1

      Now we have a happy compromise: No privacy, no rights, and we get to suffer terrorist attacks. Wonderful.

      --
      -I like my women like I like my tea: green-
    17. Re:probabilities? by thetoadwarrior · · Score: 1

      You have to allow casualties to keep people scared.

    18. Re:probabilities? by tomhath · · Score: 1

      I don't understand why people keep using the Boston bombings as an example of the system failing. The US had no reason to arrest or deport them. No amount of security will ever stop two brothers from setting off pressure cookers full of 4th of July fireworks in a crowd.

      I think a better topic for discussion is the killing of al-Awlaki. Was he trying to organize attacks against Western targets? Was killing him wrong?

    19. Re:probabilities? by Solozerk · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Leaving out the value part is where the system broke down.

      What's the value all of the US's cities ? all the buildings, the infrastructure, the work of arts, the land itself (and its capacity to provide food, minerals and resources in general) ? for that matter, what's the value of the people in the US - builders, farmers, doctors, scientists ?

      This is what the currency is backed by: the value of the country itself. The US government represent all the people in the US and all those valuable things - land, buildings, etc.... It emits currency and pays with it; that says to the people accepting the currency: yes, we represent all those valuable things, and worst case scenario if we cannot pay you back then we have collaterals - you can take a bit of land instead, or our scientists will work on your project for N years, etc... and it will sure help you more than some gold.

      It's not perfect but it sure seems to me that it makes more sense than backing the currency with big lumps of yellow metal with relatively limited uses.

    20. Re:probabilities? by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 1

      I like your perspective, and ability to announce a truth in the same context that was used to frame an initial false proposition.

      --
      "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
      Never been known to fail..."
    21. Re:probabilities? by tolkienfan · · Score: 1

      The NSAs main purpose used to be codebreaking. I bet a number of years ago a report was sent to the top describing how with modern (at the time) methods encryption would be impossible to crack in any reasonable amount of time and resources. So they switched to the alternative of snooping on the data while it was in plaintext, and trying to introduce weaknesses into future encryption schemes, and using side channels to pick up snippets. Hence their whole existance is based largely on mass surveillance.

    22. Re:probabilities? by ATMAvatar · · Score: 3, Funny

      The terrorists hate us because of our freedom, so it naturally follows if we remove all the freedom, they'll have nothing left to hate and cease their attacks.

      --
      "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
    23. Re:probabilities? by greenbird · · Score: 1

      The one thing that Kieth is resisting is that the more educated people are, the better decsions people make. His basic flaw of his own logic is, "I have all the knowledge, I know best." As long as proud ignorence is promoted, it hard for usefull Solutions.

      I think you're missing the point entirely. He understands very well more educated people make better decisions. Keeping "the people" ignorant is a big part of the solution from his perspective. What you're missing is his objective: Keeping the current power structure status quo.

      Lets face it. Either people like Keith are idiots or their objective isn't stopping terrorism (or child porn or whatever the excuse is). Most intelligent informed people are going to recognize that what they're doing isn't focused on that. The only way they hide that is by keeping people ignorant.

      --
      Who is John Galt?
    24. Re:probabilities? by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

      Can I agree with you?

    25. Re:probabilities? by NotSanguine · · Score: 1

      I don't understand why people keep using the Boston bombings as an example of the system failing. The US had no reason to arrest or deport them. No amount of security will ever stop two brothers from setting off pressure cookers full of 4th of July fireworks in a crowd.

      I think a better topic for discussion is the killing of al-Awlaki. Was he trying to organize attacks against Western targets? Was killing him wrong?

      Identifying them quickly was an example of the system working, IMO.

      IIRC, it was a bunch of Redditors going through photos that identified these guys, not our police/security/intelligence apparatus.

      --
      No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
    26. Re:probabilities? by ultranova · · Score: 1

      All this metadata, and yet they couldn't prevent Boston bomber?

      To be fair, if the NSA stops all terrorist attacks, then there are no terrorist attacks and NSA faces a threat to its existence. On the other hand, if an attack goes through but the NSA is caught completely unaware, it comes across as incompetent. So it has an incentive to be at the verge of but not quite arresting the perpetrator when an attack happens.

      Organizations and institutions behave like organisms: they care first and foremost about their own existence, and rising above that requires some level of enlightenment. That can lead to rather perverse incentives, and explains a lot about their otherwise often irrational-seeming behaviour.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    27. Re:probabilities? by matbury · · Score: 1

      He's in a spy/security agency. It's his job to tell us that the sky's falling in. That's how he and his colleagues and minions not only get to keep their jobs but get even more money. The scarier they can make the world sound, the more money they get.

      BTW, the NSA seems to be more focused on commiting industrial espionage against its trading partners and targeting legitimate political organisations than it is on terrorism. I don't think they really care that much about terrorist attacks. As long as it makes more people scared and they get more money and power out of it, it's good for them.

    28. Re:probabilities? by tragedy · · Score: 2

      The US government still keeps gold at Fort Knox. There's about 1/4 as much gold in the vault there now as there was at its peak. At modern gold prices and in modern dollars the largest quantity of gold ever stored there would have been worth about $840 billion dollars. That's less than a quarter of what the government spends in a year. It's 5.35% of the GDP. It's less than $2700 per person. And that's going by current gold prices, which would take a major dive if anyone ever actually tried to sell even 10% of it. Gold by itself, or even in combination with a few other precious metals just doesn't make any sense as the basis for a currency. It just sits there doing absolutely nothing in a vault where no-one even gets to look at it (and therefore verify its existence) except for a few select people. I've always found it hilarious that people declare non-gold backed currencies "fiat money" when you consider the massive amount of government fiat required to actually have a gold-backed currency in the first place. As another poster pointed out, the actual assets that back the currency are all the assets the country has. The other assets possessed by the US absolutely dwarf the relatively paltry amount of gold.

    29. Re:probabilities? by SimplexBang · · Score: 1

      4) The government uses their military to take what they need , then handles out IOU's for it
      5) They try to inflate the value out of it by favoring those that can "store a.k.a decirculate" the most IOU's and making these exceptions the norm , thereby reducing the "perceived" value .This means that the "top 1%" will allways need to be "reduced" ad infinitum
      6) Those that see through this don't matter if they do or don't comply , the only question is : DO YOU LIKE THE PAPERWORK ?

      --
      Avoid your fears , or wonder at the past
    30. Re:probabilities? by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      Woohoo, let's celebrate.

      And most of all, let's ignore the fact that NONE of that was due to mass spying but was simply accomplished by totally normal police work, like in the good ol' days.

      The mass spying is sold as something that could PREVENT attacks like that. Wake me again when you can show me that the whole security theater led to ONE SINGLE arrest of someone who was actually doing anything who could be stopped before anyone could get hurt.

      If you cannot prove to me without a doubt (and not with statistics, please, I studied the stuff. Want me to twist your data around so it shows just how inapt you are?) that the whole spying and elimination of any semblance of privacy served at least a little bit of security, don't expect any voluntary cooperation or even a helping hand. As a matter of fact, don't even expect me to do anything but watch and enjoy it if you should drown or burn to death, assholes!

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    31. Re:probabilities? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      And it worked! Or have you seen any attacks recently? The less freedom we have, the fewer attacks we get. Once we all have a two way televisor in our homes, we can finally sleep well again because then the terrorists will fear that we'll attack them because we hate their freedom.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    32. Re:probabilities? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      And why are they still not hanging from their nuts, broadcast on national TV?

      That people abuse power handed to them is a given. People have done it, people do it, people will do it. Letting them get away with it is what's wrong, because it basically tells them, and everyone else, that it's ok to do it.

      Why again did crucifixion get out of fashion? Want to bet that it would be a blast on pay per view?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    33. Re:probabilities? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Why again would you want to burden the tax payer with prolonging his life?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    34. Re:probabilities? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Odd. It didn't work with me. All it did was show me that the whole shit should be canceled because it's worth jack.

      When my only choice is no privacy and no security, or privacy and no security, it's kinda easy to make that choice.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    35. Re:probabilities? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Identifying them quickly was an example of crowdsourcing working.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    36. Re:probabilities? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Actually, no, it is not. It is his job to tell us how the security situation is. Of course, bad security heads will always paint the future in bleak colors because they fear that if they don't, funding will cease. What they don't realize is that funding will invariably cease if they keep crying wolf and no wolf is in sight. Because nobody will consider them a more trustworthy source for information than Weekly World News.

      He is such a security head. Personally, I'd rather call something like that a security ass. Mostly due to the quality of what comes out of him.

      A good security agent will inform you about your current security situation truthfully because he knows that when the shit hits the fan, he needs you to listen to him and heed his advice. Should that idiot ever stumble upon something important and dangerous, his warnings will at best be met with a "Hey, dufus, why don't you go play with something poisonous?"

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    37. Re:probabilities? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      Why again would you want to burden the tax payer with prolonging his life?

      'Cause I'm a pacifist.

      And I want him to have to think about what he's done while he's living in a 5'x5' cell with fluorescent lights on 24x7 eating only bread and water.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    38. Re: probabilities? by tom229 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There's more to it than that. These libertarians all circle jerk each other over a revelation that money equals debt and inflation is a hidden tax on the people. It likely all started with the zeitgeist movement, which is merely an extension of the wild ramblings of Acharya S.

      What all these new age libertarians fail to realize is that for most of history the world ran exactly how they are advocating. The invention of "easy credit" isn't a genius conspiracy perpetrated on the people by shadowy unknown figures, but rather an attempt to empower the common man with privileges like land ownership, and starting his own business. Banks, or anyone for that matter, wouldn't lend you hundreds of thousands of dollars to buy property if it had to come out of their own pocket. This means the only people able to buy land, would be those with the cash on hand, or more accurately, the rich. History is full of elite aristocracies of business' and land owners that existed actual tyrants over the common man. I don't think anyone really wants to go back to that times.

      That being said, the banking system certainly isn't perfect. Allowing a private entity to have so much control over our money supply is probably a bad idea. At the very least the central bank should probably be government controlled and not for profit, with the sole ability to lend money through brokerage arms. Private banks would thus have to become brokers for the publicly owned central bank. Of course, given the titanic industry that is private banking, it would be a massive and messy undertaking to make a change like this.

      --
      If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
    39. Re:probabilities? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Add internet and you just described my life, where's the punishment?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    40. Re:probabilities? by Reziac · · Score: 1

      There are so many targets that COULD be attacked, but haven't been (frex, every mall, Walmart, stadium, and university) that the existing attacks don't even amount to good statistical noise.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    41. Re:probabilities? by Sciath · · Score: 1

      The subject of "hating American freedom" isn't exactly spot on. Terrorist animosity toward the western world has [U.S. in particular] had a secret agreement with the Saudi family to supply the U.S. cheap oil in exchange for American military protection. Even against the Saudi's own countrymen. The sale of cheap oil was also seen as the Arab extremists as a "raping" of Saudi Arabia's natural resources. Also, the Saudi family tried to "modernize" the country against the wishes of the conservative Muslims. Third, Muslim radicals have for nearly a century objected to special treatment of the Jews on the part of the western world and the continued support that Israel receives today compared to considerations the Muslim Arabs and Palestinians in the region. Fourth, even though radical Muslims do foreswear the perceived "evils" of the western world, the do to a considerable degree object to our "freedoms". But concerns over those evils pale in comparison to the politics and economics.

      --
      "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire
    42. Re:probabilities? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      And this stone that I have here protects against tigers...

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    43. Re:probabilities? by Reziac · · Score: 1

      I have one of those too! Except mine keeps away elephants.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    44. Re:probabilities? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Now if we could only find one that keeps snakes at bay, we'd be unstoppable should we ever get to India.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    45. Re:probabilities? by Kremmy · · Score: 1

      It goes back to the same problem. Where does the value come from? If we say the entirety of physical assets of the United States back the United States Dollar, where do we see the numbers? Where do we even begin to calculate that? How do we relate it the untold trillions that the Federal Reserve issued to banks?

      This is an accounting issue, and the government seems to do everything they can to prevent themselves from being accountable. I'm tiring of this thought exercise and wanting to get to the bread of it, where we're actually auditing the government ledger and making them accountable for it. Until then, there is no value, it's entirely eaten by the massive ballooning debt and all the abstraction layers to hide it.

    46. Re:probabilities? by Reziac · · Score: 1

      I have a plastic mongoose. I've never had a cobra in my house. Q.E.D.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    47. Re:probabilities? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      muahahaha, we'll be unstoppable!

      *pinky to the corner of the mouth*

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    48. Re:probabilities? by tragedy · · Score: 1

      I'm not claiming that the way the economy of the US is managed is good. It's not. It's massively mismanaged. I'm just saying that backing it against a dense yellow metal alone makes no sense versus backing it against all assets. Yes, actually figuring out the worth of all that stuff is a difficult, probably intractable problem. Of course, the same thing is true of gold, which has little rational basis for its value. The fact is, all money is just a shared fiction that we take part in to make trade easier, even the stuff backed by a vault full of dense yellow metal.

    49. Re: probabilities? by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      Next time we find a new land and kill all the inhabitants we'll get it right.

    50. Re:probabilities? by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      With everything the NSA is collecting, they should have sent a list of suspects to the FBI and Boston PD immediately after the bombing.

      The problem is that the NSA doesn't collect this data for our good, they really are working for some shadowy non-entity and collect this data to maintain it's status quo. We are living in a conspiracy theory.

    51. Re:probabilities? by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      Yeah, it has to be cruel and unusual. It only meets both criteria if we don't do it often enough.

  2. Sign by cultiv8 · · Score: 5, Informative

    Well worth the watch if you have the time, gives a very good overview of how the NSA amassed as much power as it has: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/...

    --
    sysadmins and parents of newborns get the same amount of sleep.
  3. Had to check by lagomorpha2 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If you go from just eleven thousand to twenty thousand, what does that tell you? That's more. That's fair, right?

    Given who is speaking I had to do some fact checking before accepting it as truth.

    1. Re:Had to check by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Given who is speaking I'd even start at checking whether twenty thousand is actually more than eleven thousand...

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  4. Obligatory. by Scot+Seese · · Score: 3, Funny

    Gen. Keith Alexander,

    http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/...

    --
    THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK.
    1. Re:Obligatory. by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 2

      Gen. Keith Alexander,

      http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/...

      But. Alexander is BOTH "wrong" AND "an asshole".

      --
      "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
      Never been known to fail..."
  5. No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It means that the intel community, the military community, and law enforcement are going to work harder.

    No. It means that your efforts are turning more and more people against the United States of America. It means that your actions have made people hate you more. Rather than putting more efforts into improving people's feelings towards America, you're turning more people against you.

    And it should be noted that it's no longer just foreign individuals who are growing to hate you - your efforts are making more and more Americans hate you too.

    Maybe - and this is just a wild idea here - you should stop being complete asses. You know, stop treating everyone in the damn world like the enemy. Maybe, just maybe, that might help make people hate you less which will probably help reduce the number of actions against you.

    But, let's be honest here, that's not what the power brokers want. The power brokers want to clamp down a polio state upon America and the world at large and the only way to do that is to foster the hate and continue to make America the victim of increasing hostility from malicious interests. You're fostering the hatred because it makes it easier for you and your ilk to justify strengthening the police state that you so dearly want.

    bleh.

    1. Re:No by stevez67 · · Score: 1

      Really no one has to make certain cultures hat the USA, they've been at war with everyone around them for centuries. In the US what is feeding the hate are pseudo news organizations who fan the flames of bigotry and xenophobia to draw viewers and sell more ads. Oh, and "polio" state?

    2. Re:No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      How does this intelligence gathering turn people against us? Everybody in other countries with an ounce of brains in their heads could reasonable assumed that this is going on, and everybody in America with an ounce of brains can reasonably assume that other countries (including our allies) is either doing the same thing or trying to gain the means to do so. The revelations by Snowden only serves to rile up those with their heads in the sand (and inflate his sense of self-worth), but serves little other useful purpose.

    3. Re:No by jbmartin6 · · Score: 1
      My summation is similar but goes like this:

      from 2012 to 2013, that I gave you—look at the statistics. If you go from just eleven thousand to twenty thousand, what does that tell you?

      MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!

      --
      This posting is provided 'AS IS' without warranty of any kind, implied or otherwise.
    4. Re:No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Oh it's worse than that; the efforts of the NSA have directly harmed American businesses (non-Americans are moving their data out of America, and buying non-American switches and routers) and directly harmed the entire human population (Polio vacination programs almost had it wiped out until the NSA co-opted it for DNA gathering).

      Nice work protecting the USA there, morons. "We had to destroy the village in order to save it." indeed.

    5. Re:No by naasking · · Score: 1

      Everybody in other countries with an ounce of brains in their heads could reasonable assumed that this is going on, and everybody in America with an ounce of brains can reasonably assume that other countries (including our allies) is either doing the same thing or trying to gain the means to do so.

      Not everybody was aware of the extent this was happening, like the NSA trying to subvert encryption protocols and hardware devices. Certainly those well-versed in security culture probably suspected, but the confirmation of how pervasive it is was still surprising.

    6. Re:No by Sabriel · · Score: 1

      The problem isn't intelligence gathering, it's how it's being done: illegally.

      Spy breaks the law, to make his job (life) easier (at least in the short term).
      The spies who know about it, make the mistake of letting it slide.
      People being people, start losing respect for all spies when they find out.
      With more spies feeling no respect, the rules start breaking down.
      Loop.

      Spies, police, any other grouping of humans you like, it works exactly the same.

    7. Re:No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It means that the intel community, the military community, and law enforcement are going to work harder.

      No. It means that your efforts are turning more and more people against the United States of America.

      How does this intelligence gathering turn people against us?

      The part where intel is used to decide where to bomb? The part where intel is used to justify invading other countries? The part where intel is gathered in mass and not really filtered in any usable fashion nor really acted well upon--11,000 supposed possible attacks and only 50-some plots foiled either means around 11,000 successful attacks, 11,000 attacks yet to come, or perhaps just rampant paranoia coupled with a stupid word search that likely labels this post as a possible attack because it has "bomb" in it (imagine how many attacks the US military must be engaged in against the US with their documentation on weaponry).

      Really, if all the NSA did was gather intel and nothing came of it, then there'd be no reason to have the NSA because they'd be pointless monitors. If the NSA in concert with others acts on that intel, then they're part and parcel of whatever comes from that intel. Well, the US's actions on that intel have been a consistent clusterfuck of overstating the problem and attack way too many people. At some point you don't get to say, "Don't shoot the messenger". Or are we planning on letting bin Laden's driver go at some point because he was just a messenger/driver and that doesn't in any way make him a willing accomplice?

    8. Re:No by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Spies spy. That's a given. There are a few "rules of engagement" though. Well, rules is aiming a bit high. It's just a few things that are simply ruffling people the wrong way if you do it.

      a) You do NOT spy on your own people. That's a hallmark of dictatorships. That's what the commies did, that's what the middle east tyrannies do. It's not what you do if you claim to be a functioning democracy or republic, simply because you should be able to expect from your people that they carry you and support you, that they WANT you as their government. If you cannot assert that, if you need to spy on your people to retain your control, you're essentially not an inch better than aforementioned tyrannies and dictatorships, because you rule AGAINST the will of your subjects.

      b) You do NOT openly spy on your "friends". Of course, countries don't have friends, they have allies. That's a difference. You might lend, but you don't give away gifts without expecting anything in return. Still, "hard" spying on them is pretty much a nono. That's something that is exclusively reserved to countries that are at least neutral, and of course it's fair game with countries you consider hostile, but you don't do that with your allies. Alliances require a certain amount of trust. Else, they're not alliances, they're more akin to whatever sick conglomeration that Warsaw Pact was.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    9. Re:No by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      "Is the patient stable?"
      "No, sir"
      "Any way you could get him in a stable state?"
      "Well, we could kill him, it doesn't get more stable than that..."

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  6. Abridged version: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    There's like, a lot of numbers.. ya'know? that means stuff can happen. If stuff might happen, then stuff can happen because ... stuff!

    1. Re:Abridged version: by NeoNormal · · Score: 1

      There's like, a lot of numbers.. ya'know? that means stuff can happen. If stuff might happen, then stuff can happen because ... stuff!

      That's exactly what I got out of the summary. Blathering.

  7. A Spymaster Says Spying is Important?! by mtrachtenberg · · Score: 4, Insightful

    A spymaster asserts spying is important! Details at 11.

    1. Re:A Spymaster Says Spying is Important?! by mtrachtenberg · · Score: 3, Funny

      Coming up next -- investment bankers on why investment bankers deserve billions of dollars.

    2. Re:A Spymaster Says Spying is Important?! by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well, let's take what he says at face value for a moment.

      Basically, he is arguing the ends justify the means. There's nothing in the US Constitution to support that, though, so it's an invalid argument. The Constitution states - pretty much as absolutes - what our rights as citizens are. There's no "well, you can have this freedom only if it doesn't make things too hard on the police" clause... as far as I can tell, anyway.

      He also says that, because of the Snowden revelations, "the intel community, the military community, and law enforcement are going to work harder." Well, good! If the threat is indeed growing, they *should* work harder. To stop threats against the country and its citizens, they should use every tool that's available to them within the law. But what they *shouldn't* do is violate the constitution or civil laws in pursuit of those goals.

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    3. Re:A Spymaster Says Spying is Important?! by marcello_dl · · Score: 1

      Yes but a Spymaster saying that they need to get data about the general population to fight terrorists is news. It's like a researcher stressing the importance of false positives.

      Hint: concentrating on potential terrorists instead of amassing data about everyone should make agencies work less, not harder.

      --
      ---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
    4. Re:A Spymaster Says Spying is Important?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      " The Constitution states - pretty much as absolutes - what our rights as citizens are." - No it dosnt it merely states some of the thing we allow the government to do and some of the things we do not.

      The remaining power is supposed to belong to 'We the people'.

    5. Re:A Spymaster Says Spying is Important?! by Richy_T · · Score: 1

      Followed by "That guy who stole your car stereo" explaining how it's society's fault.

    6. Re:A Spymaster Says Spying is Important?! by hjf · · Score: 1

      Your bit about the constitution is wrong.

      The constitution is just a set of guidelines to prevent abuse from a totalitarian government. Laws routinely limit the rights of citizens.

      You have a right to free speech, but you can't say CUNT on TV.

    7. Re:A Spymaster Says Spying is Important?! by MondoGordo · · Score: 1

      sure you can ... you just can't broadcast it publicly. HBO is "on TV"

    8. Re:A Spymaster Says Spying is Important?! by BilI_the_Engineer · · Score: 2

      The constitution is just a set of guidelines to prevent abuse from a totalitarian government.

      The constitution is the highest law of the land in the US, and it is the very reason the government is even allowed to exist.

      And the constitution is a whitelist of powers the government has, not a blacklist of those it doesn't.

      Laws routinely limit the rights of citizens.

      And unless the constitution explicitly allows for those laws, they are unconstitutional. The TSA, the NSA mass surveillance, DUI checkpoints, free speech zones, protest permits, etc. are all unconstitutional. That our judiciary branch is often complicit in the crimes against the American people does not mean these things are constitutional.

      You have a right to free speech, but you can't say CUNT on TV.

      Then you don't have a right to free speech, and the government is violating the constitution. There is no justification for prohibiting speech certain people find offensive (even many people), and certainly not a constitutional one. It being a public broadcast changes absolutely nothing, since the government has no power to infringe upon free speech rights just because it's a public broadcast.

      What was your point?

      --
      These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
    9. Re:A Spymaster Says Spying is Important?! by mtrachtenberg · · Score: 1

      ...which if then followed by Alexander and Clapper explaining how they stole your privacy, but it's Al Queda's fault

    10. Re:A Spymaster Says Spying is Important?! by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Basically, he is arguing the ends justify the means

      He doesn't even argue that particularly well. If we go along with that argument, he can boast, what, maybe a couple hundred lives saved at most, for a yearly budget of $10 billion? So if "a life is a life", then shouldn't we have spent those $10 billion on, say, heart surgeries for those who can't afford them? How many lives saved would that be worth then?

    11. Re:A Spymaster Says Spying is Important?! by BilI_the_Engineer · · Score: 1

      But when a privacy advocate speaks about issues such as these, he's advocating that the government recognize people's rights. When people like this general say such things, you know it means the government is trying hard to keep its rights-infringing programs active, which is unacceptable.

      So while it may not be surprising that a privacy advocate would advocate for privacy, the implications are very different.

      --
      These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
    12. Re:A Spymaster Says Spying is Important?! by hjf · · Score: 1

      You're not a lawyer, Bill_The_Engineer. So don't play one, and don't pretend you know how the law works.

    13. Re:A Spymaster Says Spying is Important?! by BilI_the_Engineer · · Score: 1

      Well, you may wish to have a system where authority figures always know what's best (despite the fact that anyone can read the constitution), and are always right, but I don't want that kind of tyranny.

      So don't play one, and don't pretend you know how the law works.

      Want to know how it works? It doesn't. The government routinely violates the constitution, and your only defense of this is to attack me for not being a lawyer. How nice.

      I've read numerous historical documents to get an understanding of the constitution, as well as the actual constitution itself; there is absolutely no reason that one needs to be a lawyer.

      --
      These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
    14. Re:A Spymaster Says Spying is Important?! by hjf · · Score: 1

      I've read numerous historical documents to get an understanding of the constitution, as well as the actual constitution itself; there is absolutely no reason that one needs to be a lawyer.

      I've read numerous technical documents to get an understanding of engineering, as well as the [insert your speciality code here] itself; there is absolutely no reason that one needs to be an engineer.

    15. Re:A Spymaster Says Spying is Important?! by BilI_the_Engineer · · Score: 1

      Man, you're retarded. The constitution is in plain English, and its purpose is abundantly clear. While you need to have high aptitude and understand to be a good engineer, reading the constitution requires no such thing, and it's more like understanding basic English in terms of difficulty.

      Only an authoritarian asshole or someone who stands to gain would claim that everyone should mindlessly obey authority figures in matters like this. Your attitude is partly why we have the TSA, the NSA's mass surveillance, free speech zones, etc.; blind trust of authority figures.

      --
      These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
    16. Re:A Spymaster Says Spying is Important?! by MondoGordo · · Score: 1

      good point ...

  8. Work harder at what? by alphatel · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If you own a clothing store and want to prevent theft by increasing security you can:

    Add metal tags to clothing
    Hire more security guards inside the store
    Install cameras in the ceiling and watch shoppers

    The NSA opts instead to
    Ask shoppers to wear metal tags
    Hire agents to follow them after they leave
    Install video cameras in their homes

    And now we call it "America"

    --
    When the foot seeks the place of the head, the line is crossed. Know your place. Keep your place. Be a shoe.
    1. Re:Work harder at what? by TheCarp · · Score: 3, Interesting

      ....and in the end, you might still spend more on those cameras and guards than the reduction in theft; possibly even more than the total of all the theft, including the part you didn't stop.

      Bruce Schnieir made a nice observation in one of his newsletters a while back about how security never makes money for anyone but security folks....for everyone else it is a cost...always a cost. A cost that may mitigate other costs, but, its always a cost itself....in fact, it can ONLY be a benefit up to the extent that it mitigates other costs.

      That is, if you lose $10,000 a year to theft.... the absolute maximum you can ever save by implementing security is $10,000 a year, and every dollar you spend on that security reduces that benefit. If you hire a security gaurd for $40k/year... you are actually losing 4 times the maximum benefit his job can provide, before he even provides any benefit.... which is likely to only be a portion of that maximum.

      So the absolute maximum benefit of all this surveillance, of all this tampering with equipment, of invading privacy and creating a massive database that would be the wet dream of the Stasi and only needs a change in policy to be used to terrible effect....the likely unachievable maximum benefit is bound.....well really fucking small.

      --
      "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
    2. Re:Work harder at what? by ewieling · · Score: 1

      I mostly agree with what you say, but want to point out your estimate of a security guards salary is grossly inflated.

      "According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, security guards earned an average of $23,970 in 2012. The bottom 10% of security guards earned less than $17,390, while the top 10% earned at least $42,490."

      --
      I really shouldn't have used someone else's email address for this account.
    3. Re:Work harder at what? by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

      "According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, security guards earned an average of $23,970 in 2012.

      Which, after you add in benefits, taxes, and other non-paycheck costs of hiring him, will come to about $40k a year.

    4. Re:Work harder at what? by jonnythan · · Score: 1

      No worries. The EPA has you covered:
      http://www.businessinsider.com...

    5. Re:Work harder at what? by laughingskeptic · · Score: 1

      Your hyperbole is irritatingly excessive. The NSA is primarily made up of the same type of people who read Slashdot. They are not only not interested in you, they can't legally do anything with the data that they 'might' have related to you without a warrant. They are large, but not so large that they are not resource constrained. I'm sure if you had it your way, the world's premier spy agency would have no data to work with. Maybe you think you would be safer without the NSA, I disagree.

  9. Irrelevant data by gurps_npc · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Look, there is no question that spying on people will reveal some crimes.

    There is also no question that spying on people will damage our society. Some innocent people will have their non-criminal secrets revealed, damaging their lives beyond reason. Some innocent people will be falsely accused of crimes they did not commit - perhaps even going to jail or being killed by a drone. Certain people will become accustomed to violating the law for valid reasons and will start to violate it for personal reasons - the cases where US intelligence agents spied on ex-lovers are just the start.

    The question is, is the damage done greater than the damage prevented. From the huge and vast history of spying, we also know that we can not simply take the government's word. Even if they start good, they too often end up going too far.

    So we set up a system that is supposed to not only prevent the worst damage done by spying, but to prevent even the APPEARANCE that that damage might be occurring.

    General Keith Alexander's article talks a lot about the damage the spying prevents. It totally ignores the massive damage he and his ilk does.

    As such it is not convincing at all. It's like a gold miner talking about how much gold they are going to get out of the mountain without even mentioning the massive amounts of toxic materials he is dumping directly into the town's reservoir.

    --
    excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
    1. Re:Irrelevant data by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It's like a gold miner talking about how much gold they are going to get out of the mountain without even mentioning the massive amounts of toxic materials he is dumping directly into the town's reservoir.

      This is by far the BEST analogy I've seen on this recently.

    2. Re:Irrelevant data by mariox19 · · Score: 2

      The question is, is the damage done greater than the damage prevented.

      In a free country, such Utilitarian arguments take place only within the ruling principle of liberty. We don't weigh the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, and 6th amendments against some kind of first year philosophy student's bullshit session. We've established a constitutional framework for very good reasons.

      --

      quiquid id est, timeo puellas et oscula dantes.

    3. Re:Irrelevant data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The rich people funding the military compound (and getting vast amounts of money out of it) don't care about the people you are talking about. They just care bout amassing enough power to become unbeatable. And part of that power comes from knowing the way everyday people thinks, and knowing the way to change those thoughts in case they become dangerous for those who run the strings. That's what these metadata searches are all about. Dismantling a seditious group before it even has a chance to form pose great advantages in terms of maximizing the profit you could get from the people...

    4. Re:Irrelevant data by TheCarp · · Score: 2

      Not only that but there is a real hidden trust issue here.

      What is the difference between The US government collecting this sort of data and North Korea doing it? If someone came out with evidence that the DPRK was doing exactly this same stuff both to their own people and abroad (and don't get me wrong, to some extent they likely are...even if its unlikely they have the same level of capability) What is the difference?

      The answer is very simple: Policy. we are protected, to some extent, by policies which try to prevent some of the worst abuses. The problem is, policy can be skirted or changed. It isn't a question of whether we trust Keith's boys. Its a question of whether we trust them, and the people who will replace them and the people who will replace them. Can we really be certain that this capability would necessarily be destroyed before those policies could ever change or be subverted?

      Fact is we already know they can be subverted, and that no system has ever prevented abuses. We know they have templates for abusing it ("Parallel construction") and have defended the use of that template for far lesser issues than "terrorism".

      Can we really afford to trust them that much?

       

      --
      "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
    5. Re:Irrelevant data by Simulant · · Score: 1

      The reaction to 9/11 pretty much proves that the US will accept no risk unless it's self inflicted.

    6. Re:Irrelevant data by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 2

      basically, we decided we should destroy our own freedoms before anyone else can get a chance to.

      it just is that simple. and if we keep people in a false sense of fear, they can be controlled and manipulated to do the Big Man's bidding, whatever and whoever that is, this week.

      I don't think at all about terrorists. but I do think about the loss of freedom, almost weekly, now. I know who 'broke' things and I won't listen to their lies ever again. if their lips are moving, they are lying; its very easy, now.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
  10. I agree . . . by Kimomaru · · Score: 1

    "It means that the intel community, the military community, and law enforcement are going to work harder."

    Yes, I agree. Good conclusion.

  11. Re:Fearmongering at it's worst by stevez67 · · Score: 2

    Source please.

  12. Whos Security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    If they are at greater risk, it is because of their own activities and decisions. Corruption and illegal activity should not be shielded by National Security. Or more simply put, their security is not national security.

  13. best offense is a good defense by Virtucon · · Score: 1

    Why is this guy still called a General, he's a fucking politician already, a political appointee and from his spintalk he's learning the DC shuffle pretty well. A real general would lead his troops into battle and kill the fucking enemy, not continually spy on the citizens or trample on the constitution he's sworn to protect. You have soliders to fight wars, not play political games and trying to color everything with spintalk.

    --
    Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
    1. Re:best offense is a good defense by myowntrueself · · Score: 1

      Why is this guy still called a General, he's a fucking politician already, a political appointee and from his spintalk he's learning the DC shuffle pretty well. A real general would lead his troops into battle and kill the fucking enemy, not continually spy on the citizens or trample on the constitution he's sworn to protect. You have soliders to fight wars, not play political games and trying to color everything with spintalk.

      If you are in the USA then he is, in effect, a politician as are all your Generals. Until the corporates get enough leverage to be able to neutralise these Generals and replace them as your de-facto politicians.

      --
      In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
  14. I'd rather take my chances. by rogoshen1 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'd rather take my chances and live in a free society with some "risk" than in an oppressive nanny state that feels the need to increasingly monitor every aspect of my life.

    That's what he's missing, the 'risk' he's talking of is the price to pay for living in a free society.

    1. Re:I'd rather take my chances. by swillden · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'd rather take my chances and live in a free society with some "risk" than in an oppressive nanny state that feels the need to increasingly monitor every aspect of my life.

      That's what he's missing, the 'risk' he's talking of is the price to pay for living in a free society.

      This.

      One of my favorite revolutionary war-era quotes is Jefferson's "What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it's natural manure."

      Normally, we think -- as did Jefferson, I'm sure -- that the "blood of patriots" mentioned is that of citizens fighting to throw off an oppressive government. Sometimes we also think of it as the blood of soldiers defending against tyrannical forces threatening to invade. But it's equally valid to think of it as the blood of innocent citizens which is shed simply because freedom and safety are sometimes at odds with one another. Sometimes, the only way to be safer is to give up some freedom...and it's often not worth it.

      I say "often" because this isn't a black and white issue. There is a balance that has to be found, a balance that takes into account the relative harms and the numbers of people. In this case, I think the right of 300 million US citizens[*] to live free of spying by their own government is really, really big. Moreover, it's also really important to our continued freedom in all areas that we be comfortable speaking our minds, and government spying directly damages that freedom. For example studies have shown that the NSA's actions have had a chilling effect on what reporters are willing to talk about. That's very, very dangerous.

      9/11 was tragic, yes. We should try to avert future large-scale terror attacks, certainly. But against the scale of the nation as a whole, 9/11 -- the largest, most successful terror attack ever -- was a flea bite. It killed fewer people than die on our roads every three weeks, and did less property damage than a major hurricane. We could survive a 9/11 every year and not really feel the pain (as a nation -- obviously the people directly impacted would suffer greatly). And I reiterate that 9/11 was the largest, most successful terror attack ever. That's not the kind of thing that's easy to repeat, or, therefore, very likely to happen again.

      Another serious consideration is that if we allow our government to obtain too much power over us then we might arrive at a point where we need to refresh the tree of liberty via Jefferson's method. That would be far deadlier than a few terror attacks, even big ones.

      We need to accept that we can't have perfect safety. Hell, we can't have it even if we're willing to give up all freedom. So we should accept that part of the cost of freedom is a few lives, and we should honor those people as heroes who unwittingly sacrificed for the freedom of the rest of us. That's a far more effective way to preserve freedom than spending the lives of soldiers in foreign wars while voluntarily giving up the freedoms they're supposedly dying to defend.

      [*]Yes, I realize that non-US citizens also want to live without being spied upon. That's a valid issue, but separate from the point I'm making.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    2. Re:I'd rather take my chances. by jbmartin6 · · Score: 1

      But what about the children?

      --
      This posting is provided 'AS IS' without warranty of any kind, implied or otherwise.
  15. Re:Fearmongering at it's worst by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 3, Insightful

    We are less likely to be attacked on our own soil right now than we were at any point in the preceding two centuries. That likelihood hit a plateau in the 1970s. The World Trade Center collapse was a statistical anomaly.

    It looks even worse if you consider mortality generally not just the (admittedly emotionally salient; but still just another way of dying) flavor caused by overt enemy action. Even if you entirely disregard the corrosive effects of having a wildly unaccountable intelligence apparatus, which are massive, the NSA's case is pretty tepid even in purely financial terms. If you want to allocate a given dollar to reducing American morbidity and mortality, or increasing American prosperity, you have a pretty strong list of contenders ahead of the various black budgets.

  16. Re:Fearmongering at it's worst by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    We are less likely to be attacked on our own soil right now than we were at any point in the preceding two centuries. That likelihood hit a plateau in the 1970s. The World Trade Center collapse was a statistical anomaly.

    I was surprised to see Gen. Alexander trotting out the "a life is a life. How many does it take to make it worth it?" fallacy. Amusingly, the General brings up the story of Enigma; it might have saved just one life with regards to the ethical question raised by the semi-apocrypal story of Coventry in WW2.

    When we were up against the Russians, it was "better dead than Red." We were taught not that Communism was evil because it came from Russia, but because Communism requires a system of government that requires pervasive surveillance and monitoring of dissidents.

    There was a time in which Russia and China had more prisoners per capita than America. I remember reading about it as part of a lesson on why parliamentary democracy and representative republics were better than communism.

    There was a time in which the KGB and the Stasi (and their Maoist equivalents, and the events of Tienanmen Square, and even as recently as the Great Firewall of China) were held up to Americans as examples of what not to do.

    "Better dead than Red" is overstating it, and to take such a principle on an absolutist basis would have resulted in MAD over Korea and/or Vietnam. But by that same token, an absolutist adherence to the fallacy of "because it just might save one life" is not an acceptable reason transform the land of the free and the home of the brave into a panopticon, General.

    P.S. When we consider that a single attack that did about $1-2B in damages prompted us not only to disregard our civil liberties, but also to expend multiple trillions of dollars in order to defend against things as banal as plane crashes? A politician might make that tradeoff, because our underinformed electorate tends to fall for "if it saves just one life" at any cost - particularly when a successful attack might result in the loss of a politician's ability to get re-elected. For someone holding the rank of General, he completely fails to understand the principle behind asymettric warfare. And that is why, 13 years after 9/11, regardless of whether we won or lost the battles of Afghanistan and Iraq, we still lost the war.

  17. That's right... Work Harder! by stink_eye · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Rather than taking actions that short cuts the Constitution of the United States and infringes the rights of the citizen populace you claim to want to protect. Guess what, if the people of the US have lost faith and trust in the Military, Judiciary, Executive, and Legislative branches, as well as in Law Enfiorcement there is a reason for it. It's not some mass hallucination or mob mis-perception. The US Government has undermined the trust of the populace and now it is reaping the consequences. Don't bitch that the job is now harder because of infringements caused by corruption and incompetance within the highest corridors of power within the U.S.

  18. Fear, uncertainty, and doubt: by kheldan · · Score: 1

    The three main weapons in the arsenal against freedom.

    Guess what, everyone? The number of threats against the United States has likely been about the same from year to year for decades and decades now, they're just trotting out these 'independently gathered statistics' because they've been caught with both hands in the surveillance cookie jar and crumbs all over their faces, so now they trot out the FU&D to try to justify themselves. Them, them, fuck them, I say. Go back to traditional spycraft techniques and stop rummaging around in America's underwear drawer, you fucking creeps.

    --
    Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
    1. Re:Fear, uncertainty, and doubt: by WoOS · · Score: 2

      The three main weapons in the arsenal against freedom.

      And I always thought the three main weapons were: Surprise, fear, and ruthless efficiency.
      Could we get Mr. Alexander maybe join a reenaction of Monthy Phyton. It seems to fit quite well to the NSA.

  19. Re:Boo hoo. by plover · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Cry me a river. I'm sure that we could reduce that possibility ten fold if we placed cameras and microphones inside everyone's house. Does that mean we should do it? Absolutely not.

    But we already have voluntarily carried microphones and cameras into our houses, pockets, and purses. Does that mean the NSA should ignore them?

    --
    John
  20. To be even Safer ... by PineHall · · Score: 1

    I propose that we put at least 2 cameras in every room. This way we can catch everyone committing a crime and reduce dramatically the risk of crime in the USA. I propose that the NSA, who has the expertise, would expand its role and electronically monitor the cameras. The computers would flag potential crimes happening for the NSA experts to look at. They would maintain the database and rules would be in place to prevent any abuse by the NSA professionals. Oversight of this NSA operation will be by a secret court that will punish those breaking the rules. All proceedings and transcripts of the court will remain secret to protect the work of the NSA and not increase the risk of crime.

    Without the exaggeration of "at least 2 cameras in every room", I feel this is what is happening right now around the world. By upping the surveillance we would be safer but our quality of life would be less without any privacy, and the potential for abuse would be very great. There is no significant oversight and transparency happening at the NSA. This needs to change and people's rights (including non-Americans) need to be respected. Knowing human nature, abuse is happening and the database is being misused. The NSA needs to be reigned in and its operations limited. We may end up being at a very slight larger risk for a terrorist attack but people's lives and rights would be respected.

  21. Re:Then why did you break the law? by Devoidoid · · Score: 1

    You know spies. Bunch of bitchy little girls.

  22. Re:Fearmongering at it's worst by Raseri · · Score: 1

    Are you saying the WTC "attack" wasn't carried out by Silverstein, Bush, Cheney, et al?

    --
    Writhe your naked ass to the mindless groove.
  23. of waht? by Charliemopps · · Score: 1

    What that tells me is we're at greater risk.

    Risk of what exactly?

    Because you're talking about taking away my constitutional freedoms. That's a big deal. You need to give me some idea of what I'm being protected from. A terrorist attack? Because, the chances of that are 1 in 9,138,785. I'm willing to take that risk if it means I get to remain free.

  24. Re:Fearmongering at it's worst by MondoGordo · · Score: 1

    So wishing i had Mod points +10 well put.

  25. Re:Fearmongering at it's worst by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    "a life is a life. How many does it take to make it worth it?" then what about better AFFORDABLE healthcare, homes for the homeless , domestic abuse shelters and other things that can easily and demonstrably save lives.

    Oh I forgot those dont keep put masters in power.

  26. probablilities by whistlingtony · · Score: 1

    And yet despite his scaremongering, which coincidentally means he needs more money and resources, I'm more likely to die of a heart attack or get hit while riding my bike than to ever even SEE a terrorist.

    We should take all their money and spend it on automobile safety and heart disease prevention....

  27. How threats are measured by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

    Everytime some dude says "Death to America!" or something like that on the Internet, that's a credible threat. Oh look, there's another one. If you don't stop it, it'll be like nine eleven times a hundred!

    --
    "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    1. Re:How threats are measured by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

      Don't forget that every mention of the word "bomb" being a possible threat. Even if used as to describe a bad movie ("The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles movie's gonna bomb at the box office") or as slang to describe something very good ("That burrito is da bomb."). It doesn't matter the context, it's a threat.

      The fact that we haven't been attacked by mutant turtles wielding exploding burritos is thanks to the tireless work of the NSA!

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
  28. A Fair Trial by AndyCanfield · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Some people ask whether Edward Snowden can get a fair trial in the US. The real question is whether Keith Alexander can get a fair trial in the US. He was the head of an organization which was doing illegal things. Will he get a fair trial? Will he get a trial at all? No.

  29. Conversation Successfully Reframed by dave562 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The government does a great job of keeping the conversation focused on "terrorism" and the inevitability of it.

    They never allow the dialogue to shift to the causes of terrorism. We never see discussions about the specific foreign policy elements that generate the hatred and anger that leads to people getting to the point where they are willing to sacrifice their lives to inflict harm to the American economy and way of life.

    Until people begin having real conversations about what we are doing, why we are doing it, what the benefits of doing it are, and what the risks associated with it are, this is going to continue.

    Unfortunately it seems that any sort of multi-faceted conversation like that is not of interest to most of the population. Those who are interested in having those conversations have already had them, and decided that the benefits outweigh the risks. Money in their pockets is worth the cost of a few lives and civil liberties.

    It all comes back to the 1%. There is a small portion of the population that is gambling with the lives of everyone else. Everyone else is too disorganized to remove the 1% from power.

    Until people get to the point where they are willing to publicly stand up and say, "I am tired of living in fear for my life so that WE can make money at the expense of the rest of the world." Nothing is going to change. And that is the truth of it. On some level, all of us, ALL OF US, benefit from the current system and are too comfortable with it to do anything more than whine about it online.

  30. Probabilities & realities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    There are more people in the world, therefore more bad people in the world with no respect for life, so yeah the 'chances of a single event over time increases'...even the number of people impacted will increase. Guess what, freedom means you are less safe...do NOT give up freedom for security.

  31. Re:Poilio state by MondoGordo · · Score: 1

    Auto-correct (from police) I'm guessing ... but considering the recent outbreaks ... it may have been intentional.

  32. Say what? by mbone · · Score: 1

    The military officers I have known have at least been coherent.

  33. Interesting but false portrayal by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

    Cold hard reality check: More than 95 percent of all actual threats originate in or have data collection endpoints in one of the following: Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Pakistan, or Afghanistan.

    Individual warrants on directly (not indirectly) connected US citizens could be done within the context of the US Constitution.

    The methods that ARE in use, regardless of what he's telling you, are, for the most part, in direct and certain violation of the US Constitution and in direct and certain violation of the Data treaties (which have the force of law and override Congressional Law and any MOUs) with both the EU and Canada.

    Period.

    Oh, and this has been going on a lot longer than they pretend. No, even longer than that.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  34. Re:Fearmongering at it's worst by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

    I think when the A/C regains consciousness, it will not even remember its post.

  35. Stop being such a bully... by SlovakWakko · · Score: 2

    ...and start respecting other states' sovereignty. I mean for real, not just with words. Maybe then the number of attacks will start dropping...

  36. Re:Boo hoo. by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

    Are you submitting yourself as a Test Subject?

  37. I'm not willing to make this trade by Karmashock · · Score: 1

    I'd rather deal with a higher level of threat then accept extra legal NSA/CIA spying within the US.

    The politically incorrect reality is that we've probably let too many bad people into the US and the western world at large. Say you want to keep radical elements out and they cite you for racism because the people trying this crap lately tend to not be white. That said, were they white, I'd have the same attitude about it so I don't see how race comes into it. Obviously, people shouldn't be excluded based on their race. BUT ideology might be fair game. I don't think being islamic should be enough to trigger a ban. But if you are then it is a risk factor. Sorry... it is. And that risk factor might trigger a deeper evaluation and that evaulation might find that a particular person is dangerous.

    Regardless we can have two types of security. Internal security and external security.

    I prefer the heavy handed stuff be kept external. Which means filtering visas more aggressively, securing the boarders, and dealing with foreign threats on foreign soil.

    The alternative is that we turn the US into a police state with intelligence agencies scouring the nation looking for all the enemies the external filters didn't stop.

    Choose. Its that or we just get bombed whenever they want. External security means I stay safe AND free.

    Internal security means I MIGHT be safe but I lose my freedoms. Neither means I could easily lose both my freedoms and my security.

    So... is there really more then one option here? Secure the border, be more careful with travel visas, and make a point of dealing with foreign threats on foreign soil.

    --
    I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
    1. Re:I'm not willing to make this trade by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

      I'd rather deal with a higher level of threat then accept extra legal NSA/CIA spying within the US.

      That's because you realize that, if the NSA were to scrap their entire Internet spying program tomorrow, our percent chance of being directly affected by a terrorist attack would go up about 0.0000001% (and even that is probably overestimating it).

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    2. Re:I'm not willing to make this trade by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      Nonsense. Securing the borders has literally nothing to do with our foreign debt.

      --
      I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
    3. Re:I'm not willing to make this trade by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      Even if it went up more, the actual problem is that they keep letting radical elements into the country. Again, someone is going to cry racism here but it has nothing to do with race. It has everything to do with people landing on a plane or crossing our southern border... and then doing something terrible. Period.

      The DHS recently released something like 30 thousand illegal immigrants in the US onto US streets who were also convicted of other crimes including MURDER, RAPE, and assault.

      Now how fucking stupid do you have to be to think that's a good idea. These are people that shouldn't be in the country in the first place. And worse, they're people that indifferent to where they are shouldn't be free because they're violent criminals... Their countrymen in their home country would put them in jail. And actually it is racism that gets them released because if they were white I'm pretty sure they would have been shipped back to their country of origin and certainly not released wholesale.

      Here is my solution to our immigration issue: Symmetrical immigration policy. Every country that wants to send people to the US must accept on the same terms US citizens as immigrants to their own country.

      So for example, if a country wants the US to accept 5 million immigrants then they must be willing to accept 5 million Americans as immigrants. And the terms for immigration must be symmetrical. So if citizenship in that other country requires X, Y, and Z it is reasonable for the United States to require X, Y, and Z from them in return.

      This should amongst other things make it much easier for Americans to emigrate to other countries or establish duel citizenship elsewhere. Which would give americans a release valve in the case that Federal taxes become too high or there becomes some other problem with living in the United States. Its much easier to become an American citizen than it is to become a Mexican citizen for example. They should be at least similar.

      If imposed it would be logically impossible to cite the US for racism because in nearly all cases it would be the foreign country that had stricter immigration rules and therefore the US could justify much stricter rules for those citizens as a result.

      The major problem with this idea is that it would be very complicated because you might have very different rules for different countries.

      The genius of this policy is that the US has looser immigration laws than pretty much any other country on earth. So its moronic to claim we are being racist by wanting to tighten it up a bit. Every country

      --
      I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
    4. Re:I'm not willing to make this trade by cavreader · · Score: 1

      Especially since foreign debt only compromises about 6% of the total outstanding debt. The rest is owed to the Federal Reserve. And describing foreign debt as some kind of loan or ownership is also incorrect. Other countries park their money in the US securities and bond market because it is a safe and reliable investment.

    5. Re:I'm not willing to make this trade by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      The other big misconception is that people keep referring to this debt as if they're demand loans. They're not. The money loaned has to be paid off at a specified time and the money is paid in dollars which the US government can just print. Which is precisely what they do whenever these bonds come due.

      We could literally afford to sell bonds 100 trillion dollars worth of bonds. The only consequence would be our currency would be worthless when it came time to pay them off.

      That is the risk. Not that some foreign government is going to call their debts in but that our currency collapses.

      This has nothing to do with the borders... I don't know what that guy was thinking... I'll be nice but come now... don't waste our time with that silliness.

      --
      I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
  38. Simple solution by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 2

    Stop being imperialist, corporate dicks on the international stage (including propping up tin pots du jour just for stinking profits). This will never happen.

    "Avoid foreign entanglements (including Israel)." -- George Washington

  39. How to increase odds by gmuslera · · Score: 1

    Just violate a basic human right of most humans in the planet, including foreing governments and normal citizens, and you will have a lot less friends. And that will be your fault, your actions, not theirs or Snowden's.

  40. Dear Mr Alexander by BobMcD · · Score: 2

    Dear Mr Alexander, fuck you. No, seriously, fuck you all to hell. At this point I would rather be attacked than be your slave. At least if I am attacked I will have an enemy that I can fight instead of some asshole trying to justify his own slimeball existence. Your fear mongering can go right back up your ass for all I care. I'm sure you can get the University of Maryland to do a study on that for you as well, so long as you pay them enough.

    Sincerely, Bob

    P.S. Fuck off.

  41. Re:Fearmongering at it's worst by bigpat · · Score: 2

    Good points. Protecting lives is important, but Liberty is what we fight for, it is what generations have killed and died for, it is what, God willing, we leave to our children. When Lincoln talked over the freshly dug graves of Gettysburg he couldn't say they were fighting to save lives because that would have rung hollow amidst so much death and destruction. When he said "shall not perish from this Earth" he wasn't talking about his life or the lives of his fallen countrymen he was talking about the battle so that "government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth."

    We can't have a government of the people, by the people or for the people if we have a government spying without warrant on all the people. Making a mockery of the rights enshrined in our constitution and the real abuses of government power that those constitutional rights are intended to prohibit.

  42. Re:Boo hoo. by BlueStrat · · Score: 1

    Cry me a river. I'm sure that we could reduce that possibility ten fold if we placed cameras and microphones inside everyone's house. Does that mean we should do it? Absolutely not.

    But, but...we have to destroy freedom in order to protect Freedom(tm)!

    Why do you hate Freedom(tm) and America(tm)??

    "Those who would give up essential liberties for..."

    Ah, screw it! Apparently most people are fine with sacrificing any and all of their individual liberties and rights as long as the talking heads tell them it makes them more safe. Or, that changing this slide into totalitarianism in America is someone else's job.

    There will always be the risk of people doing bad things in a free and open society. If there was not the ability for individuals and groups in a society to do bad things, then that society by definition would be neither free nor open.

    Strat

    --
    Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
  43. Cherry picked example is full of shit. by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

    His first example in the New Yorker was how the NSA thwarted Basaaly Moalin.

    Some background: Basaaly Moalin emailed Najibullah Zazi asking how to make a bomb. Zazi was already under FBI investigation. The NSA is scanning all email traffic, finds the word "bomb" in this email, and they foward this to the FBI, and they go forward from there. The two end up arrested.

    This is a good turn of events. Bravo FBI for doing a good job. We are not saying that this is a bad thing, nor are we saying that these things should not be investigated.

    What we want is for them to get a warrant before scanning all the email. The FBI was already investigating him for some reason. Would it have been that hard to ask a judge first? Someone sent a clear-text email to a person under investigation asking how to make a bomb. You don't need a complete dragnet of all the populaces communication to go find that terrorist. We have perfectly legal tools written into the bloody constitution about how you're supposed to go about this. USE THEM.

    Around 9/11, we intercepted some of [the hijackers’] calls, but we couldn’t see where they came from. So guys like [Khalid al-]Mihdhar, [one of the 9/11 hijackers who was living] in California—we knew he was calling people connected to Al Qaeda in Yemen.

    That sounds like a REAL EASY case to get a warrant for. "Hey judge, there's this guy calling Al Qaeda. We intercepted his phone call going from point A to point B and we'd like to ask the phone companies where those points are. You know, so we can keep tabs on where the terrorist cells are calling from. Just might be coming from within the states. ... Yeah, I know right? Just like that scene 'the call is coming from inside the house!'. That'd be funny if we weren't talking about thousands of dead people. So mother-may-I-gimme a warrant already."

    And they’re going to say, Well, you eliminated all the tools to catch the terrorists!

    We want to remind you that the tools need to require you to jump through a hoop, just like the RAS you described in your example. You need your tools. But you must jump through the legal hoop.

    We saw what happened when Edgar Hoover had his dragnet on everyone. It didn't turn out well. And we certainly can't trust you with similar power.

  44. How about actually using relevant statistics? by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

    Using global statistics isn't relevant to US operations. So, the relevant question would be how do US deaths due to terrorists acts compare before and after. Sandy Hook, Boston Marathon, and the Aurora Shooting would arguably all fit the bill of terrorism in the US and are less than a year before Snowden's leaks, and the death toll exceeds what we've had in the time since then.

    So, General Alexander, you are cordially invited to shut the hell up.

    --
    This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
  45. What difference at this point general does it make by WaffleMonster · · Score: 1

    Does it matter if some random citizen is killed by a criminal or terrorist? They are dead by malevolent hands either way.

    We have a situation where a 9/11 number of people are killing each other in a more or less statistically predictable fashion every quarter decade over decade. It happened this quarter, it will happen the next and the one after that...yet nobody at NSA seems to be talking or otherwise giving two shits about that.

    I think we should be looking at ALL risks and reallocate funds away from NSA,TSA,CIA military industrial machine toward endeavors which in the real world stand most chance of providing highest ROIs based on objective evidence rather than current environment of allocation based on fear and politics.

    After all list of attacks actually prevented by these agencies appears quite pathetic commensurate with expenditures.

    Quite stunning not one of these goons have been able to articulate how collection of everyone's phone records is necessary to conduct a specific authorized investigation while continuing to publically seek retroactive authorization.

    The "intelligence community" breaks the law and knowingly enabled wars directly responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands based on information they knew at the time to be factually deficient. "Traitors" seems too kind.

  46. Re:Fearmongering at it's worst by Agent0013 · · Score: 1

    I also like how he points out that we let people die to keep the secret of the cracked Enigma machine. So saving a life makes it worth it, unless letting them die is more worth it.

    --

    -- ssoorrrryy,, dduupplleexx sswwiittcchh oonn.. -Quote found on actual fortune cookie.
  47. Re:Fearmongering at it's worst by NotSanguine · · Score: 1

    Are you saying the WTC "attack" wasn't carried out by Silverstein, Bush, Cheney, et al?

    Shel Silverstein was responsible for 9/11? I knew he was a slimebag. Those literary types are all alike!

    --
    No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
  48. Re:Boo hoo. by NotSanguine · · Score: 1

    Cry me a river. I'm sure that we could reduce that possibility ten fold if we placed cameras and microphones inside everyone's house. Does that mean we should do it? Absolutely not.

    But, but...we have to destroy freedom in order to protect Freedom(tm)!

    Why do you hate Freedom(tm) and America(tm)??

    "Those who would give up essential liberties for..."

    Ah, screw it! Apparently most people are fine with sacrificing any and all of their individual liberties and rights as long as the talking heads tell them it makes them more safe. Or, that changing this slide into totalitarianism in America is someone else's job.

    There will always be the risk of people doing bad things in a free and open society. If there was not the ability for individuals and groups in a society to do bad things, then that society by definition would be neither free nor open.

    Strat

    I find it interesting (as some others have also pointed out) that we are spending enormous (we don't even know the full extent) amounts of money on the surveillance state, ostensibly to "protect" us from terror attacks. The probabilities say that you are many times more likely to die in or by an automobile than by a terrorist attack. They also say that you're more likely to die getting hit by lightning, or in your bathtub, let alone from heart disease. If "protecting" us is so important, why aren't we spending money in proportion to the probabilities? I'll leave the answer as an exercise for the /.er.

    --
    No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
  49. The General doesn't get it by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

    By putting back doors in our communications infrastructure, the NSA is creating an attack vector for enemies to use.

    1. Re:The General doesn't get it by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

      By putting back doors in our communications infrastructure, the NSA is creating an attack vector for enemies to use.

      That's a feature not a bug.

      An NSA job creating feature too.

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  50. Corporate Choice by currently_awake · · Score: 1

    Do the phone companies and internet companies get ordered to hand over our meta-data? Or are they volunteering the information of their own free will? The answer to this question will determine our plan of attack on fixing this situation. Do we need to punish the corporations for selling us out, or do we need to crucify our politicians for selling us out? We have limited resources, we can't effectively do both.

  51. Re:Fearmongering at it's worst by Redmancometh · · Score: 1

    Um...what

  52. They have too much data and not enough information by jonwil · · Score: 1

    The job of the NSA in broad terms is to collect data (whether that be from cellphone companies, ISPs, web companies or wherever else) and then feed that to analysts who will take that data, sift through it and pull out useful pieces of information.

    The problem the NSA has right now is that they seem to want to collect ever greater amounts of data (with no effort made to target the data that is most likely to contain useful information) yet the number of analysts they have turning that data into information is nowhere near what it needs to be to handle that data.

    They should stop trying to collect every piece of digital data in the known universe and instead go on a recruitment drive to hire A.Experts who can help the NSA figure out which bits of data are most likely to contain the useful information so they can target those specifically and B.Expert analysts who can help them to turn that data into useful information.

  53. Not news: Osama Bin Laden continues to WIN by bussdriver · · Score: 1

    It was almost as if the USA was already imploding and just needed a nudge...

    Authoritarians have weaknesses. And the USA is an authoritarian society. People living a culture are also limited in their ability to self-reflect; in addition, Americans live in a bubble already (it's so bad that it's pretty much a global impression of Americans. The stereotype is not unfounded. )

    No leader realizes they are too authoritarian; many tricks to manipulate their character flaws works on societies as well. Maintaining control (aka "Order" or even a custom definition of "Peace") is of the up most importance to the authoritarian. Ultimately, it is their own insecurity that they can not handle which causes them to go to great lengths to compensate by attempting to control as much as they can. The psychology is not unknown. You can manipulate these types based upon their flaws. Add to their fear of insecurity etc; the more their core flaw is hit the greater the defensive mechanisms will be.

    You can probably think of people who on their own little scale fit some of this. It's not unlike many psychological flaws where people show their flaws by their over compensation for them. Like a gay man in denial can be extremely anti-gay, having to try as hard as their doubt/fear -- the more fearful, the stronger the compensation. You can make them stand out by seeding doubts in their mind and they will respond with more defensive behaviors until they stand out from normal people as an extremist or even as somebody in self-denial. For a control freak, this isn't hard to do - if they are not already illustrating the traits clearly for people to pick up on... You just have to make them see how much is out of order and how much that is a threat to their feeling of security.

    When you have a SOCIETY which is authoritarian and as a result their leaders are also (usually worse than the population) a lot of the same tactics work. A general may not start out with the flaws, they will develop them from their experience/job. These are mental conditions, not genetic diseases. Generals foster the well known stereotype of them being paranoid because their environment produces it, not to mention it also tends to filter out the type of people least susceptible by the process they are hired/created. Leaders have a high susceptibility as well; although, I would guess a statesman politician would be one of the least susceptible types of people... So it's more a function of the environment; of which culture plays a really big role.

    This is why when you have an amendment for free peaceful assembly which is every bit as strongly worded as free speech, the society allows it to be trampled upon in the name of "order" far more than it does free speech, which has less impact on the insecurity weakness. (But it can push buttons so you use speech to decide who to spy on and monitor... and it's not so much the crazies actually shooting and bombing, it's the ones saying things that actually could change the culture towards more chaos.. )

    Chaos, the ultimate threat... eventually, democracy is too chaotic and it has to be controlled or forbidden. If you've been paying attention, that has already been done.

    No, I'm not an anarchist. I don't read their stuff; but I'm sure the articulate ones do a great job pointing these things out. You need to listen to the intelligent people saying things that are uncomfortable, that is where you'll find the truth - one person simply lacks perspective to grasp reality.

  54. Re:Fearmongering at it's worst by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

    It's too common, perhaps even universal, a cognitive bias to describe it as insanity; but it's still unfortunate. One can only imagine the improvement if we put our resources where our desires actually suggest they should go, rather than where we feel that they need to be.

  55. Re:Fearmongering at it's worst by ATMAvatar · · Score: 1

    There are still several other top causes of death to tackle. Cancer (#2) is a good one, and it's only barely behind heart disease.

    For comparison, 9/11 would have to happen once a month to crack the top 10 and weekly to hit the top 5.

    --
    "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
  56. The real risk by kimvette · · Score: 1

    The thing that puts us at risk is our own damned selves. We butt into everyone else's business, give billions in aid to other nations when we're already broke, and we warmonger. If we didn't do all that shit we wouldn't be running into problems.

    --
    The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
    1. Re:The real risk by kimvette · · Score: 1

      Officials just got their panties into a twist because Snowden and Manning blew the whistle on a lot of the bullshit.

      --
      The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
  57. The NSA failed by LihTox · · Score: 1

    The NSA let this random guy Snowden walk away with all of their secrets. Snowden isn't some genius mastermind; if he could do it, I'll bet there are other people who did it too. Only they didn't go public, they just sold the information to China or Russia or al Qaeda (assuming they weren't spies to begin with).

    So it doesn't matter what Snowden announced to the world, because chances are the people we're most worried about already knew about it.

    If the bloody National SECURITY Agency can't secure itself, we can't rely on it to secure anything else.

  58. Bullshit! by Atl+Rob · · Score: 1

    Their cavemen! Most "terrorists" are just mentally unstable children, but we need a multi-trillion dollar defense structure to deal with it? We've given up how many rights? How about just sending in some freakin social workers and stop pissing them off? Then the problem could go away and our taxes could be cut! Please find another political topic and way for defense contractors to collect profits, this is boring already... Thanks.