Slashdot Mirror

← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)

Is It Really GPS If It Doesn't Use Satellites?

Posted by Soulskill on from the is-it-really-a-hot-dog-if-it's-not-made-from-dogs? dept.

cartechboy writes: "GPS was originally developed by the military, but today it's in your smartphones, and soon, possibly your watches. Now the British military is developing something called quantum compass. The concept is a GPS-style navigation for submarines that doesn't use satellites. The quantum compass uses the movements of super-cooled subatomic particles to pinpoint a vessel's location. These particles, stored in a vacuum, react to the Earth's magnetic field. The movements caused by this interaction can be used for location positioning. At the moment, the Ministry of Defense's prototype resembles a '1-meter long shoe box,' so the next step is to miniaturize it. It could then be used by individual soldiers, as well as huge ships and submarines. Not only is it useful, but it's secure too—the technology is apparently interference-proof. Is this the future of navigation systems, or the reinvention of the compass? Possibly both."

29 of 298 comments (clear)

  1. Man-portable supercooling? by GameboyRMH · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Good luck with that.

    --
    "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    1. Re:Man-portable supercooling? by tippe · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The supercooling is apparently done using lasers, so something that is man-portable is maybe realistic

      The DSTL's team was inspired by the Nobel-prize winning discovery that revealed that lasers can trap and cool a cloud of atoms placed in a vacuum to less than a millionth of a degree above absolute zero

    2. Re:Man-portable supercooling? by jellomizer · · Score: 4, Funny

      Doesn't anyone listen to the Doctor. Whenever the Brits make advanced technology meant to be shared with the world for the common, it is part of some evil plot to take over the human race! Why don't they just call it Asmos.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
  2. Well ... by gstoddart · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Does it provide you with an accurate position on the globe?

    As far as I know GPS means "global positioning system", and doesn't include the word satellite.

    --
    Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    1. Re:Well ... by CastrTroy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      GPS specifically refers to the system created by the US military for tracking your position using a bunch of satellites they put up there. Just because the acronym expands out to something rather generic doesn't mean it doesn't mean a specific implementation. FTP expands out to File Transfer Protocol. That doesn't mean that bittorrent is FTP because it's also a protocol for transferring files. There are other systems like GLONASS that help you determine you position, and also use satellites. But it would be confusing to call them both GPS, because GPS refers to a specific implementation. If you're going to call things that aren't GPS as GPS, then you might as well call navigating by the stars GPS.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    2. Re:Well ... by NatasRevol · · Score: 4, Funny

      you might as well call navigating by the stars GPS

      That'd be galactic positioning system.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    3. Re:Well ... by Lumpy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Exactly, and when you use the Russian system you dont use GPS. you use GLONASS. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G...

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    4. Re:Well ... by gl4ss · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "Non-Satellite GPS Could Soon Be A Thing"

      that's the only fucking thing on the article that refers to it as "gps". other references are "gps like".

      if wanting to be a total troll about it, I think it remains to be seen if us military will call this sort of positioning GPS or not.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    5. Re:Well ... by DougOtto · · Score: 5, Funny

      No. In Russia, GLONASS uses you!

      --
      Solving Unix problems since 1989...
    6. Re:Well ... by itsdapead · · Score: 3, Informative

      GPS specifically refers to the system created by the US military for tracking your position using a bunch of satellites they put up there.

      So, its a System that gives you your Position on the Globe, but not a GPS(TM). Thanks for the clarification...

      Unless its just a super-accurate way of finding out which way is North in which case it is probably a compass (not trademarked, at least in that context, AFAIK). Carefully analysing the name "quantum compass" suggests that maybe, just maybe, that's the case - although it could still form part of a System that gives your Position on the Globe.

      Maybe the key distinction is that a GPS (TM-or-otherwise) will work out your position from scratch, whereas the sort of hyper-accurate dead reckoning/inertial navigation system that TFA appears to describe would need to know where you started from...

      --
      In a survey of 100 programmers, 111111 thought that duck-typing was a good idea.
    7. Re:Well ... by The+Grim+Reefer · · Score: 5, Interesting

      This is only true because before the array of satellites deployed by the US military, there was no other system for finding your global position.

      Not true. From the Wikipedia entry on the SR-71"Nortronics, Northrop's electronics development division, had developed an astro-inertial navigation system (ANS), which could correct navigation errors with celestial observations, for the SM-62 Snark missile, and a separate system for the ill-fated AGM-48 Skybolt missile, the latter of which was adapted for the SR-71.[50][citation needed]

      Before each takeoff, a primary alignment brought the ANS's inertial components to a high degree of accuracy. Once in flight, the ANS, which sat behind the Reconnaissance Systems Officer (RSO)'s position, tracked stars through a circular window of quartz glass set in the upper fuselage.[37] Its "blue light" source star tracker, which could see stars during both day and night, would continuously track a variety of stars as the aircraft's changing position brought them into view. The system's digital computer ephemeris contained data on 56 (later 61) stars.[51] The ANS could supply altitude and position to flight controls and other systems, including the Mission Data Recorder, Auto-Nav steering to preset destination points, automatic pointing and control of cameras and sensors, and optical or SLR sighting of fix points loaded into the ANS before takeoff.[52] Former pilot Richard Graham told an interviewer at the Frontiers of Flight Museum that the navigation system was good enough to limit drift to 1,000 feet off the direction of travel at Mach 3."

      I knew a guy who worked on this system. He told me about a time when they pulled one out of a plane for routine maintenance and they thought it was malfunctioning as it locked onto a star while in the hanger. After they couldn't find the fault they put a guy on a lift and turned all of the lights off in the hanger. Sure enough they found a pin hole in the roof that could only be seen close up in the dark. After they patched the hole, everything checked out fine.

    8. Re:Well ... by donscarletti · · Score: 3, Informative

      A sextant can find longitude through the lunar distance method, comparing the moon's position to that of a reference star and looking up that position in a Nautical Almanac to find Greenwich Time. This method was actually discovered a few years after the marine chronometer was invented, but was the dominant method during the 18th century because of the insane cost of chronometers at the time.

      A sextant is also needed to find the local time at your current location regardless of whether you use a chronometer or the moon to find GMT, so it's at the least half of the process in finding longitude either way.

      --
      When Argumentum ad Hominem falls short, try Argumentum ad Matrem
  3. What kind of question is that? by Enry · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Of course it is. It's Global Positioning System, not GLONASS Points South. Doesn't matter how you know where you are, as long as you know where you are with some accuracy. It's unlikely this method will be as accurate as using an actual satellite-based GPS, but probably good enough for submarines that can stay under for months at a time.

  4. Not GPS by Megane · · Score: 5, Informative

    Nope.

    Sounds like more like an inertial navigation system, but one that uses the Earth's magnetic field instead of just being shaken around.

    --
    #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
    1. Re:Not GPS by timeOday · · Score: 4, Insightful
      It is not clear from the article whether or not this is ultimately an inertial system, but if so it's a huge leap beyond the current ones:

      It's a great deal more accurate than the current method used by submariners, which relies on accelerometers to pick up a vessel's movement while underwater. The accuracy difference is enough that a vessel surfacing after a day could be within three feet of its intended position--rather than up to a mile off.

      It sounds potentially very exciting. (Yet once again, 99% of the slashdot comments are debating the phrasing of the clickbait headline, instead of talking about the technology itself and potential impacts. It's really disappointing.)

  5. depends. by gandhi_2 · · Score: 4, Informative

    Are we saying Global Positioning System, capitalized and considered a Proper Noun?
    Then, no.

    Are we saying global positionin system, a generalized term for systems that give you position data on the globe?
    Then yes.

    LORAN, EPLRS (when used as it was actually created for instead of a mesh data network), VORTAC, and probably many other systems were all generic positioning systems.

    If the earths magnetic field moves (and it does), then won't this system also be affected?

    --
    THL phish sticks
    1. Re:depends. by arth1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Are we saying global positionin system, a generalized term for systems that give you position data on the globe?
      Then yes.

      In that case, we're causing confusion, and should be using the already existing word - geodesy/geodesics.

      Using a well-known noun as if it were a generic term causes problems. People who ask what brand of xerox machine you have should be taken out and shot, and so should people who say GPS for other things than, well, GPS.

  6. Light on facts by Captain_Chaos · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The article is very unclear about how exactly these supercooled atomic particles tell them where they are on the globe. The impression I get is that it's just a more accurate form of inertial navigation. Or perhaps it compares the local magnetic and gravitational fields against some map of the Earth? I don't see how that would be immune to interference though, especially the magnetic part. And it would rely on an extremely accurate magnetic/gravitational map of the entire planet, which would have to be kept up to date as well as both those fields are constantly changing. Sounds very unpractical.

    I'll be very interested to see if something comes of this or if it will just turn out to be hot air and/or inaccurate reporting...

  7. Re:Does it give you a position on the globe? by Missing.Matter · · Score: 4, Informative

    A map is not a system.

  8. stable magnetic field by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I'm kind of surprised that Earth's magnetic field is stable enough for this to work well. Or if nothing else, wouldn't local magnetic field disturbances goof it up?

    1. Re:stable magnetic field by The+Raven · · Score: 4, Informative

      This is not a compass. This measures the atoms passing through lines of magnetic flux. The magnetic flux lines are remarkably uniform when you are not within range of a competing magnet; I suspect that is just as true underwater. It's like measuring your distance from the center of a record by counting the track grooves you have scratched over. It does mean it's more accurate at east-west than it is at north-south.

      --
      "I will trust Google to 'do no evil' until the founders no longer run it." Hello Alphabet.
  9. I'm skeptical by fewnorms · · Score: 3, Informative

    These particles, stored in a vacuum, react to the Earth's magnetic field.

    ... it's secure too—the technology is apparently interference-proof.

    I work for a company that deals with inertial navigation systems, specifically systems based on mechanical gyroscopes. The reason we use gyroscopes is because testing, running, and updating our tools for the last 30 years has shown us that we are inherently more precise than a magnetic measurement tool that measures the Earth's (local) magnetic field. Contrary to our tools, a magnetic measurement device is easily influenced by outside interference. Events like variations in the solar wind, such as solar flares, can easily interfere with the local magnetic field, which in turn changes your measurement of the field. Of course you can compensate for this with a lot of math, but even then those tools are still not as accurate as the tools we provide. I'd really like to know how they solved that problem, if they actually did.

    --
    Veni, Vidi, Velcro!
    1. Re:I'm skeptical by Rei · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I think the emphasis has been misplaced; I think based on the process describe that they're actually measuring the *gravitational* field, which is not readily tampered with. It'd be like navigating based on a topo map, except instead of altitude it'd be using the local gravitational field below the device.

      Supercooled superconducting gravimeters can be amazingly sensitive, to the point that one in Finland reportedly detected the increase in local gravity as workmen removed snow from the roof of the building it was housed in ;) If one can make use of tiny diode lasers to supercool a tiny group of particles, it could conceivably yield a low power, portable, super-precise, tamper-immune GPS when combined with dead-reckoning and/or other rough positioning mechanisms to help determine how you're moving over the "topographical" gravity map.

      At least that's my take.

      --
      For the love of Crom, am I the only one here who wants to keep the U.S. technologically competitive?
  10. Re:Durability? by Lumpy · · Score: 4, Informative

    About 3 inches. The GPS satellites transmit signals on two carrier frequencies. The L1 carrier is 1575.42 MHz and carries both the status message and a pseudo-random code for timing. The L2 carrier is 1227.60 MHz and is used for the more precise military data stream

    Salt water attenuates 1.5ghz signals quite effectively.

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  11. Re:Durability? by SuricouRaven · · Score: 3, Funny

    Could build the input stage with valves. It'll make your location sound better.

  12. Vacuum? by Forthan+Red · · Score: 3, Interesting

    "These particles, stored in a vacuum, react to the Earth's magnetic field." Is it actually possible to store anything in a vacuum? If a vacuum is, by definition, a space that is devoid of matter, once you put something in it, it's not a vacuum anymore.

  13. Re:Durability? by SuricouRaven · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Salt water attenuates all radio quite effectively, except for VLF, which is cumbersome to work with.

  14. Next Up! by Rob+the+Bold · · Score: 3, Funny

    Next up in our quest to solve the world's semantic quibbles: is it a metric system if it isn't SI?

    Discuss among yourselves.

    --
    I am not a crackpot.
  15. Article is lame blogspam. Here's the real info. by Animats · · Score: 4, Informative

    Lame article, which points to a blog, which points to another blog, which points to the wrong place on a Russian site, which copied the article from The Daily Mail. The Daily Mail, even though a tabloid, has a halfway decent article.

    I'm not going to explain inertial guidance; that's what Wikipedia is for. This is better inertial guidance. Here's a popular article which describes this new class of "gyros" and accelerometers. If you really want to know what's going on here, read Advances in Atomic Gyroscopes: A View from Inertial Navigation Applications

    Laser "gyros", which work by interferometery and have no moving parts, have been around for decades. The best laser gyros still have more drift, by about 2 orders of magnitude, than the best mechanical gyros. Laser gyro technology has hit the limits of what you can do with photons. The idea here is to do interferometry with coupled atoms, rather than photons. That technology has been slowly improving for a decade or so, and it looks like it's getting close to deployment for high-end applcations.

    One of the more interesting possibilities here is chip-scale gyros of moderate precision. Here's a Honewell patent from 2006 for one.