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Oklahoma's Earthquakes Linked To Fracking

An anonymous reader writes Oklahoma has already experienced about 240 minor earthquakes this year, roughly double the rate at which California has had them. A recent study (abstract) has now tied those earthquakes to fracking. From the article: "Fracking itself doesn't seem to be causing many earthquakes at all. However, after the well is fracked, all that wastewater needs to be pumped back out and disposed of somewhere. Since it's often laced with chemicals and difficult to treat, companies will often pump the wastewater back underground into separate disposal wells. Wastewater injection comes with a catch, however: The process both pushes the crust in the region downward and increases pressure in cracks along the faults. That makes the faults more prone to slippages and earthquakes. ... More specifically, the researchers concluded that 89 wells were likely responsible for most of the seismic activity. And just four wells located southeast of Oklahoma City were likely responsible for about one-fifth of seismic activity in the state between 2008 and 2013."

102 of 154 comments (clear)

  1. If it's the process of putting the wastewater back by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    Perhaps companies that do fracking should be regulated to treat wastewater like nuclear waste and prevent them from dumping it back in. It would stop the earthquakes and save them from the impending lawsuits that would follow. a Win Win aside from the cost of storage which should be less than a class action. Also who's to say it wouldn't be easier to treat the water a couple of decades from now to the point where it could then be poured out.

  2. Missed it by that much. by rmdingler · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Apparently, estimates of the distance that the wastewater travels from the SWD were off by nearly an order of magnitude.

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    1. Re:Missed it by that much. by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      Now add in those earthquakes and basically the completely fracturing of the formations that waste water was injected into and well, those estimates just reflect the intent of those estimates, sheer and utter bullshit to justifying the cheapest possible method of dumping that water, short of just dumping it straight into the nearest river or stream.

      --
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  3. seems to be a common theme by Trepidity · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The weakest part of the whole fracking operation is really sloppy treatment of the wastewater. There have been large spills in some places, and the disposal is often questionable (as seen here). The fracking process itself gets the most scientific scrutiny, because it's what's technically new about fracking, but good ol' wastewater handling is a mess, just as it was in the mining days.

    1. Re:seems to be a common theme by dcollins117 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Apparently, nobody has ever done a single environmental impact assessment or a performed an inspection related to a fracking operation.

      Why bother? There's no point to it. The oil and gas companies have explicit exemptions and exceptions to most EPA oversight.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exemptions_for_hydraulic_fracturing_under_United_States_federal_law

      It matters not a whit how damaging their actions are to the environment when there is no possible recourse available.

    2. Re: seems to be a common theme by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      They could (and can) clean and recycle the water. Oil companies are very skilled at water purification - having needed to separate oil from water from steam, or detergent, injection processes. It is more expensive - so they won't do it unless water is scarce or regulation requires it.

    3. Re:seems to be a common theme by Luckyo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      In a democratic society, recourse becomes available after majority of population is informed of harm caused by the issue and pressure their representatives to change the law.

      As a result, information and its presentation in mass media is important. Regardless of the fact that US is more of an oligarchy than democracy today.

    4. Re:seems to be a common theme by Luckyo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There are other choices than those two. Including choice of reducing usage of natural gas and oil in the first place because they become too costly.

    5. Re:seems to be a common theme by Mister+Liberty · · Score: 1

      It's all by design. Ever heard of 'externality'?

    6. Re:seems to be a common theme by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

      A democracy normally has protections to prevent the majority demanding things that do undue harm to a minority.

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    7. Re:seems to be a common theme by __aanbvm4272 · · Score: 1

      We just overtook Saudi Arabia as #1 producer in the world (welike being # 1 don't we?) And we're STILL paying MORE at the pump regardless of the supply. Amazing G.W. Bush. Gee Dub Ya Opposite of what you said. Right?

    8. Re:seems to be a common theme by HappyPsycho · · Score: 1

      While I would be inclined to agree with you, the fact that the exceptions pointed out by GP already exist seems to indicate regulatory / congress capture has already happened.

      Providing information to the public may not work in this case.

    9. Re:seems to be a common theme by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      majority of population is informed of harm caused by the issue and pressure their representatives to change the law.

      Where can I find such a democracy?

    10. Re:seems to be a common theme by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      I agree with you, hence my last sentence and emphasis on "democratic society".

    11. Re:seems to be a common theme by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      Attention span of many people on the internet is about two sentences. I took three to deliver the obvious caveat. I guess I can blame no one but myself :D

    12. Re:seems to be a common theme by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      Switzerland comes to mind as one of the last bastions of it, as do Nordic countries, especially Iceland.

  4. Okay, so this has what to do with fracking then? by Rei · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Companies have been pumping water (usually wastewater or seawater) down wells since the start of the latter half of the 20th century, to restore pressure in oil reservoirs. So how is this anything new and anything connected with fracking?

    Also, I don't unerstand why people make such a big deal out of these minor earthquakes which are general to small too feel even if you're paying attention for them. The amount of energy they're dealing with is only in the ballpark of these tiny quakes; compared to a large earthquake, it'd be like a mouse trying to push a boulder off a cliff. Either the boulder is ready to go or it's not, the mouse makes essentially no difference.

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  5. I wonder... by thieh · · Score: 1

    How long would it take to regulate fracking? Hopefully it won't take forever to do that.

    1. Re:I wonder... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Regulation will happen when most of the resources that fracking allows us access too have been used up.

  6. No accountability by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's really interesting to see the lengths that fracking companies put between themselves and wastewater, basically outsourcing the wastewater manage process to entirely separate companies explicitly for the purpose of no longer being responsible for the wastewater. They've done this pretty much from the start, too.

    At the beginning it was most likely to give themselves a buffer when the environmental problems or health problems arose due to all those unclassified chemicals of dubious safety used in fracking that remain in the wastewater. Now it may provide them another buffer when it comes time to blame a party for the cause of these earthquakes.

    Much like the GMO argument, it is the strange and suspicious actions of the companies that raises concerns rather than what they are doing. I'm sure more ethical businesses could frack and dispose of wastewater safely; none do. Just as I'm sure Monsanto could make GMO products without such bizarre legal actions that leverage their product to punish farmers.

    People wouldn't bat an eye if the fracking or GMO industry had transparency, honesty, and responsibility rather than endless misdirection and threats.

    1. Re:No accountability by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      It's really interesting to see the lengths that fracking companies put between themselves and wastewater, basically outsourcing the wastewater manage process to entirely separate companies explicitly for the purpose of no longer being responsible for the wastewater. They've done this pretty much from the start, too.

      Actually the reason for that is not as nefarious as you think, and its the same reason for outsourcing construction, operation, commissioning, maintenance and many of the other activities various companies outsource.

      The idea is simple. The companies make their money by getting shit out of the ground and selling it. Their value lies in the exploration rights and their proven reserves. Everything else is technical details. Most upstream oil companies are staffed with geophysicists, geologists, and anyone capable of holding a divining rod, as well as a few project managers to hold the whole thing together. They then borrow shitloads from the bank and sink even more shitloads into 3rd parties who will build, maintain and run the equipment. Then they can reap massive profits without having to actually have the expertise to do anything. Ever wonder why BP's oil spill involved a platform owned by someone other than BP, run by someone other than BP, drilling a hole which was cemented by someone other than BP, yet the profits of the operation (were it to have been successful) would have gone to none other than BP?

      The entire industry is like that. Wastewater isn't complicated but there are plenty of specialist contractors who are willing to do it for you, so why waste the time and resources to doing it yourself, when you can focus on other things while also partially shifting liability.

  7. Re:Okay, so this has what to do with fracking then by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I don't think they make their point very well or it got taken out of context by the naysayers or something. But the point should be that fracking is helping to prevent the large, devastating quakes that would eventually happen by relieving some of the pressure in small, mostly unnoticeable quakes.

  8. Re: Okay, so this has what to do with fracking the by Dixie_Flatline · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ...
    You know what 'fracking' refers to, right? Hydraulic fracturing?

    The rocks are being purposely stressed by high pressure liquids and crack under the pressure, releasing oil/gas that was previously trapped and irretrievable.

    So what this has to do with fracking is that they thought that just pumping fluid back in would hold things up, but clearly that's not true. The integrity of the final rock/fluid combination is inferior to the original. Old wells were like sticking a straw in a drink and sucking it up. It's not really the same (though old oil wells have been known to sink and collapse as well, so it's not like that was risk free either).

    Is it a real problem? Well, I don't live there, so I don't know. I don't think it's wise to tinker with geology that we clearly don't understand well yet, however.

  9. A good thing by arielCo · · Score: 4, Interesting

    That makes the faults more prone to slippages and earthquakes.

    If my meager understanding of earthquakes is correct, these small slippages release in small bits the tectonic stress that could otherwise build up until a bigger quake happens. So, frack away?

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    1. Re:A good thing by bongey · · Score: 1

      Mod parent up. NOVA had a earthquake eposide. The more the plates stick, the more energy builds up and then leads to a major quake. The actually can calculate the amount of energy that is current stored because of the sticking.
      So frack away.

    2. Re:A good thing by OnTheEdge · · Score: 2

      I've heard this conjecture before, and it certainly seems to make sense. Can anyone point to any evidence that this might be true?

    3. Re:A good thing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Not in this case. These earthquakes are occurring on previously quiescent faults. The faults don't have tectonic stress accumulating (or if they do, the accumulation is very slow) because they aren't on plate boundaries or in other geologically active areas.

      The energy that's being released in these earthquakes has been in these rocks for millions of years. It would never have been released at all, if it weren't for the fracking.

    4. Re: A good thing by arielCo · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Both. Since you can't be bothered to read what I wrote attentively, I'll tryoto expand and break it down:

      Fracking releases the energy in the faults, thus fracking triggers quakes. But the energy doesn't come from fracking - it comes from plate tectonics. And the quake would have happened anyway, possibly causing more damage like a pressure pot with a defective release valve. So fracking doesn't cause *additional* quaking - it replaces a few (possibly) big quakes with several smaller ones.

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    5. Re:A good thing by lesincompetent · · Score: 2

      The stress is just being transferred to an adjacent fault. It doesn't magically disappear.

    6. Re: A good thing by arielCo · · Score: 2

      Huh? Don't all quakes release energy?

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    7. Re: A good thing by twistedcubic · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Fracking releases the energy in the faults, thus fracking triggers quakes. But the energy doesn't come from fracking...

      That's like someone pushing you off a cliff and then blaming gravity for your death.

      ...And the quake would have happened anyway...

      OK, Nostradamus, we believe you...

    8. Re:A good thing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      That makes the faults more prone to slippages and earthquakes.

      If my meager understanding of earthquakes is correct, these small slippages release in small bits the tectonic stress that could otherwise build up until a bigger quake happens. So, frack away?

      Well, that's why a little bit of knowledge is dangerous. The problem is that they are pumping wastewater back into the area they just fracked thinking they can use the same mediocre methods of disposal and stability management used in non-fracking well processes. What we are seeing is that the hydraulic fracturing used to release the oil and gas from inside pockets of shale that are trapped inside other geologic strata. If the fracturing only affected the shale there may not be so much issue, but the fracturing is doing enough damage to the surrounding strata that just pumping wastewater into the area where the oil or gas was is not enough to stabilize the surrounding rock. Think of it this way. When a house is new it takes time to "settle" on its foundation. The new weight of the house on the disturbed soil causes the structure to sink, sometimes irregularly causing structural damage. When the rock strata is fractured and millions of years of stresses redistributed the ground is going to move in response to that as it settles. Just like the house you really have no idea how things will settle, and in some cases if they settle without causing damage. Where the examples differ is in the scope of the consequences. Fracking has the potential to cause an unimaginable amount of damage to land, water and life. It should be stopped. We have a sufficient number of studies and real world examples to say this is not a good thing and should be scrapped.

    9. Re: A good thing by Paradise+Pete · · Score: 1

      Well obviously there is a certain amount of energy building up that is going to be released somewhere, at some time. Breaking that up into small, tolerable releases seems like not such a bad thing. I have no idea if fracking is good or bad overall, but this might be a small positive.

    10. Re: A good thing by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Then why does it generate quakes in areas that previously had no big ones on record? What you say does happen sometimes, but often the slippage might never have happened at all, at least not for thousands of years.

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    11. Re: A good thing by arielCo · · Score: 1

      Yes, there's a reply to my original post that the fillers do not stabilize the damage well enough, and that's causing new dynamics in faults that were until now quiescent.

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    12. Re:A good thing by arielCo · · Score: 1

      So it's not really about faults accommodating plate displacement, but about new dynamics created by collapse in the fractured rock. And the statistics suggest that something is indeed changing. Are there any measurements of the strata backing up this?

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    13. Re:A good thing by sjames · · Score: 1

      And build pressure upstream at the next sticking point so those people can have the big quake instead.

    14. Re: A good thing by sjames · · Score: 2

      Except that it increases the energy in the next sticking point causing it to build faster than the little quakes they naturally have can release it. So they get a big quake they never would have had.

    15. Re:A good thing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, the oil companies probably have that data and seeing it might be impossible. Getting independent data would be prohibitively expensive and would require the permission of the land holder, in this case the oil company. And it's not new dynamics. The stresses were there but had eqilibrized over time, so yes, you do have pressure/stress/tension built up in the rock that the water can't replace once that structure within the strata has been compromised. Just like what happens when you disturb any type of soil or rock and put new/different stresses on it. Nature finds balance by releasing some energy somewhere else in the system, i.e., along the fault lines where the rock is fractured elsewhere, naturally. The seismic data should say whether there was a side motion or an up-down motion, but how that relates would depend on what happened deep underground during the fracture and the pump back. Was there a collapse, a stretch, a little of each? USGS may be able to tell, but will the truth change anything. Look how long it took to get smoking banned. Dealing with a large industry with a lot of money on the table.

    16. Re:A good thing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Hi, exploration geophysicist here.

      Existing faults exist with various levels of stress. Some of them are sitting on a hair trigger to release massive amounts of energy. Maybe it naturally would have been another 50000 years before it would go off. And the hair trigger can be indirectly disturbed by a smaller nearby quake.

      Smaller quakes can relieve pressure in one place but this then puts more pressure in another place further down the line, the ground is all connected. That's what happened in Haiti, the fault there is like a zipper with a bulge in it, with the stress point moving along the fault westward in a long series of quakes.

    17. Re: A good thing by arielCo · · Score: 1

      I thought all quakes dissipated energy reducing the total stress, but this may still be true while increasing concentration elsewhere as you suggest. Another reply to my comment says that the fractured layer isn't as strong as before, resulting in new shifts and accomodation in faults that were stable. What do you think?

      --
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    18. Re: A good thing by dywolf · · Score: 1

      fact of the matter is, these are NOT relieving stresses that would prevent a larger quake. the stresses that cause big quakes are typically much deeper in the crust than the quakes triggered by fracking, and deeper than the fracking itself occurs at. in fact, these only serve to make a big quake more likely by removing the tectonic structures that have so far been holding the deeper forces in place.

      source: i study this crap for a living.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    19. Re: A good thing by arielCo · · Score: 1

      I learned after posting that comment that some of the quakes happened in places without a significant seismic history. And thar the fracking may have caused a redistribution of stresses by weakening the gas bearing strata. (Which is not the same as crowing "You said you weren't causing quakes and now you can! Which is it, huh? Huh?")

      The fun part will be taking Big Oil to court. How well have the areas where they operate been monitored?

      --
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    20. Re: A good thing by arielCo · · Score: 1

      Yes, another /.-er said that weakening of the gas-rich strata changes the stress field, causing reacommodation in places that were previously stable. Is there any serious before/after record of displacements / etc (besides seismic events) to build a solid case in court / regulators ?

      --
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  10. Re:Okay, so this has what to do with fracking then by mewrei · · Score: 5, Interesting

    A majority of them are too small to be felt, but we have had 5.9's and 4.0's before. Even a 3.5 can easily be felt if the epicenter is close enough (of which, my house is only about 3-4 miles away from the epicenter of quite a few of them). The big deal is that it's starting to damage buildings. My house is developing a few cracks here and there, and some people are even getting serious enough as to having some foundational issues. When did it all start? When they started fracking. When did it stop? When they paused fracking for a while. When did it start up again? When they started fracking again. I know correlation does not equal causation but damn if that doesn't provide at least some necessitation to investigate.

  11. Re:Misinformation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "fracking" refers to the whole process. and that process as it is right now seems to cause earthquakes. if that is because the company owner have godlike powers or because they pump water back in causing issues is irrelvant.

  12. Power rule rules! by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 1
    89 wells out of the thousands accounted for most of the miniquakes. Four wells accounted for 20% of all seismic activity. Such uneven distribution obeys the power rule. 80% of income earned by 20% of workers, 80% of crime committed by 20% of criminals, 80% of academic papers authored by 20% of the authors etc.

    But it would be impossible to hold the owners of these four wells accountable for anything. There are "experts" available for hire whose specialization is to muddy the waters and raise enough reasonable doubt among the jury and the public. There is so much of money to be made by fracking and it has so much of political support it would be difficult to do anything. By the time their power wanes and something could be done the real culprits would have cashed their shares and moved on to the next venture.

    --
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  13. Re:Okay, so this has what to do with fracking then by jythie · · Score: 5, Informative

    *nod* one of the issues is that buildings on the east coast are not built with earthquakes in mind like west coast ones, so it takes much smaller quakes to do economic damage. And once you start to see damage (and the economic impact of repairs) you get into the classic sore point of 3rd parties paying a price for industry profits, which pisses people off.

  14. Ground water pollution. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    It's the ground water pollution, for one.

    For the other, this is completely different than the old days of shooting sea water or many times they used steam; so comparing fracking to old ways of getting oil is irrelevant.

    Thridly, there are quite a few issues that are coming to light but the industry - like all induestries - is stone walling and as far as I am concerned, lieing until proven otherwise because ALL businesses will lie through their teeth to protect profits.

    Money rules. Human wellbeing drools - in our society.

    Profits turn people evil.

    1. Re:Ground water pollution. by rally2xs · · Score: 1

      The "ground water contamination" is, if you look at the article, from METHANE, where some water wells have had methane for decades. Its not a big deal, you can drink water with methane in it, and you only need a simple construction to vent off the dissolved gas so that it doesn't accumulate in the house and blow something up.

      Methane in drinking water occurs naturally, and as a result of coal mining operations, and sometimes any sort of drilling, with or without fracking. The whole thing is yet another "Lets tear America down" pack of lies, and the sooner we buck up and quit being scared of the boogey men that are peddling this nonsense, the better off we'll all be.

    2. Re:Ground water pollution. by budgenator · · Score: 1

      My Dad's water well had methane, not the "chemical analysis report" kind of methane but the water fizzed like soda pop kind of methane. There were no oil or gas well, nor were there any coal mines, just an oil seep down by the river. We pretty much avoided glass water glasses because pressure surges from the methane would knock the glass out of our hands.

      --
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  15. A small problem... by cirby · · Score: 2, Interesting

    They're nice enough to put their numbers and charts online. Which is great. https://cornell.app.box.com/okquakes/1/2137038978/18684174734/1

    Unfortunately, their own charts show a bit of a problem. Specifically Figure S1.

    The increase in earthquakes over time is definite. And it's NOT generally where the actual injection wells are. Sure, there's a few quakes recorded in the middle of the injection well area, but they're not consistent, and they don't map with time.

    The earthquakes do map well with one thing, though: they seem to swarm around active seismic stations that aren't near fracking disposal wells. Which seems to either show that seismometers create earthquakes, or that they have some instrumentation issues.

    1. Re:A small problem... by twistedcubic · · Score: 3, Informative

      The increase in earthquakes over time is definite. And it's NOT generally where the actual injection wells are.

      If you look at the charts again, you'll notice the earthquakes occur generally near the fault line, which is not surprising, is it? And the stations are near the fault line too, which probably is a good idea, don't you think?

    2. Re:A small problem... by cirby · · Score: 1

      The small fault that seems to be generating most of the seismic activity in the study is not only quite a few miles away, it's not connected to any of the major faults in the area - and there's a long, major fault (Nemaha Fault) in between the injection wells and the earthquake zone. (Figure S9 shows this dramatically)

      It gets better. According to the notes for Figure S3, water is extracted on the west side of the Nemaha Fault and re-injected on the east side. Which means that the earthquakes are increasing on the side nearest the extraction, and not increasing on the side where the water is re-injected.

    3. Re:A small problem... by cirby · · Score: 1

      Rocks at depths like these don't allow water to flow very fast, so the earthquakes form a kind of spreading halo around the injection site that moves slowly away and eventually dissipates if you stop injecting.

      ...except that no such effect appears on their maps.

      Not to mention the other thing - where the wells they extract the water from originally are on the side of the fault where the earthquakes happened, and the wells where they inject the water are on the other side of the fault, away from the earthquakes. Not only is it counterintuitive, it's the opposite of what they claim in the study.

  16. Earthquakes are deep, oil wells are not. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I dont get it. The average depth of oil/gas wells here in Oklahoma is approx 5,000 ft. The typical depth of earthquakes here in Oklahoma is approx 16,000 ft. I'm not seeing a connection between the two. But there is a geographical correlation and here's why.
    When I worked for a large oil exploration company here in Oklahoma, I wrote software to search for "fault zones" because areas where the formations are broken up due to tectonic activity is also an attractive place to explore for and produce oil, in other words, oil companies drill in tectonically active areas because the deep formations are "pre-fracked" ! And so now people are finding a statistical correlation drilling and earthquakes. tooo funny.

    1. Re:Earthquakes are deep, oil wells are not. by minstrelmike · · Score: 1

      That's my understanding, too. Small earthquakes can occur continually in the groundwater zone but major earthquakes, i.e. fault slippage, is far deeper and thus not subject to any easing of the tension from either fracking or injecting waste water.

    2. Re:Earthquakes are deep, oil wells are not. by MightyMartian · · Score: 2, Funny

      Oil company employee finds no problem with oil extraction. News at 11.

      --
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    3. Re:Earthquakes are deep, oil wells are not. by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      Man surprised that experts in a field tend to be employed in the field. Interview at 10...

      --
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  17. Just wait.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    One of these days, Fracking is going to cause an earthquake so large that it is going to cause Oklahoma to separate from the continental united states and drift off to sea.

  18. Re:Has anyone seen my shoes by ArcadeMan · · Score: 2

    That's weird, I found unknown shoes in my closet this morning and now everything tastes blue.

  19. Re:Okay, so this has what to do with fracking then by Charliemopps · · Score: 1

    Companies have been pumping water (usually wastewater or seawater) down wells since the start of the latter half of the 20th century, to restore pressure in oil reservoirs. So how is this anything new and anything connected with fracking?

    Also, I don't unerstand why people make such a big deal out of these minor earthquakes which are general to small too feel even if you're paying attention for them. The amount of energy they're dealing with is only in the ballpark of these tiny quakes; compared to a large earthquake, it'd be like a mouse trying to push a boulder off a cliff. Either the boulder is ready to go or it's not, the mouse makes essentially no difference.

    The difference is where the fluid is going. In a normal oil well, the introduce pressurize fluids to increase pressure and push the oil up the well. They're introducing fluid to a geological area that's had fluid in it for millions of years. There's no real change there, no reason for the earth to shift.

    What this study shows is that after they are done fracking they need to dispose of their fluids so they're digging a NEW well and pumping the fluid down to an area that's been dry for millions of years. They are changing the deep geological structure of the rock, and therefor causing shifting and of course, earthquakes. They likely do this because the fluids they are using are highly toxic, they wont admit what's in them. It seems more and more likely that fracking itself isn't so bad, the feds just need to regulate the fluid they are using to do it. If they were just using brine, they could have just left it near the surface without fear of contamination.

  20. Re: Okay, so this has what to do with fracking the by kick6 · · Score: 5, Informative

    So what this has to do with fracking is that they thought that just pumping fluid back in would hold things up, but clearly that's not true.

    That's not at all how it works. The fluid exists to create hydraulic pressure. They put sand or tiny ceramic balls in the water to fill the voids created by the fractures to "hold things up."

    This article relates to what they do with all the water after it returns to surface. They go find another well that doesn't produce anymore (or drill a new one into a non-producing zone) and pump the water in. HOWEVER, salt water disposal (SWD) is an operation that has been going on for decades. It's not new or unique to fracturing in the slightest making this article just more incorrect bullshit, and your post only adds to that. Please stop posting if you don't know what you're talking about as this only adds to the incorrect info that surrounds this issue.

  21. Re:Okay, so this has what to do with fracking then by kick6 · · Score: 2, Funny

    buildings on the east coast are not built with earthquakes in mind like west coast ones

    TIL: Oklahoma City is on the east coast.

  22. Re:Not a good thing by arielCo · · Score: 1

    Now we're talking. There's one thing that doesn't add up to me: does the energy delivered by the process approximate the energy released seismically?

    --
    This post contains no rudeness or derision of any kind. All arguments are friendly. Terms and exclusions may apply.
  23. Re:Not a good thing by MightyMartian · · Score: 2

    I'm not clear why it should. If you have geological structures under stress, there is already considerable energy in the system, and it may only take a small amount of additional energy to release the much larger amount being pent up.

    If you have a bowling ball balanced at the top of a cliff, the energy released by it falling and hitting the ground far below is far greater than the energy required to push it over the cliff.

    --
    The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  24. A complete lack of understanding by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The ignorance of the science of geology here is astounding. Many of you don't understand the difference between hydraulic fracturing and deep waste injection. You don't understand the mechanisms of earthquakes, You don't understand rheology (look it up). You probably think that Zorin's plan in a "View to a Kill" was feasible.

  25. Re:My power rule? by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

    If extraction is causing property damage, then property owners should be compensated. If other forms of environmental damage are being caused by these practices, the practices should be evaluated.

    --
    The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  26. Re:Okay, so this has what to do with fracking then by JimSadler · · Score: 1

    It doesn't take much of a quake to cause a lot of harm to a home. What do you do when a foundation or a slab cracks? How about water pipes that start leaking at the joints or a lovely crack in a ceiling. This is a classic case of industry not being able to contain negative effects upon others and is probably actionable. Loss of peace of mind and loss of property value re enough to generate a huge law suit. Florida has already had one man swallowed alive in his bedroom by a sinkhole. Those sinkholes are caused by pumping water for an increasing population that leave voids below towns and suburbs. The city of Naples Florida is so undermined with caves, partially emptied by water pumping that any home in the area is at risk of suddenly sinking.

  27. Re:Okay, so this has what to do with fracking then by FuzzNugget · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Reproducibility is a key element in scientific research. I've think you've demonstrated a pretty strong case for it right there.

    Also: Occam's Razor. You didn't have earthquakes before and they started when the practice of crumbling the foundational geology beneath you. And this is happening in many places where they never previously experienced earthquakes. As if we even need a scientific study commissioned to determine this? The repeated, consistent anecdotal evidence is overwhelming proof enough on its own.

  28. Re:Not a good thing by ganjadude · · Score: 1

    bigger than before, but the potential energy was still stored. so again it still boils down to a few smaller quakes, or a large deadly quake sometime in the future. Its not as if they are creating quakes where there never would be quakes.

    --
    have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
  29. Re:Not a good thing by arielCo · · Score: 1

    That analogy doesn't resemble fault dynamics at all. Perhaps a better one would be pushing a heavy object along a hard floor; as it moves, some points of contact stick, flexing the structure a tiny bit until the stress exceeds the static friction, and every little jolt is like a seismic event. That's how regular fault accommodation causes quakes, and the longer the points of friction are stuck a bigger jolt becomes more likely.

    But never mind - there are other replies to my top-level comment that propose other sources of stress / energy.

    --
    This post contains no rudeness or derision of any kind. All arguments are friendly. Terms and exclusions may apply.
  30. Re:Not a good thing by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

    The analogy seems fine to me. In both cases you have a large amount of potential energy (in one case gravity, in the other frictional forces) and in both cases a catalyst of relatively small amounts of energy can upset the system and cause a much larger release of energy.

    --
    The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  31. Re: Not a good thing by arielCo · · Score: 1

    Yes, the "small force triggering a big release" part is alright. The flaw lies in assuming theres a single bowling ball; to follow your analogy, imagine that balls keep coming in at a more or less constant rate until the shelf flexes and all come down (avalanches work like this too). Wouldn't you rather shake the shelf to make one ball fall at a time? (IIRC, avalanches are sometimes triggered on purpose).

    Plate movement doesn't stop either, and the fault can accommodate and dissipate its stress in big or small jolts. But again, read the other post I told you about.

    --
    This post contains no rudeness or derision of any kind. All arguments are friendly. Terms and exclusions may apply.
  32. Re:Not a good thing by sjames · · Score: 1

    Your honor, I assure you those people would have died eventually anyway. I didn't kill them, I just got it over with a few decades early!

  33. Re: Okay, so this has what to do with fracking the by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    You don't understand how it works. After the high-pressure injection of fluids for the hydraultic fracturing, they introduce sand (propant) to hold the cracks open, and then they release the fluid pressures. So it doesn't stay pressurized. It's just the opposite, because the next stage is to pump out the hydrocarbons.

    What the article describes is something else: waste-water disposal. And while hydraulic fracturing does produce a lot of waste water needing proper disposal, so do plenty of other industries. This sort of problem has been indentified in several places. I recall injection wells in parts of Ohio and Colorado that had similar issues decades ago that had nothing to do with hydraulic fracturing for petroleum exploration. On top of that, the simple solution to stop the earthquakes is to stop injecting the water (the earthquakes will wane over time), and the vast majority of injection wells have no issues (only certain areas are prone to earthquakes if fluid is injected). If you find one of those areas, as in this part of Oklahoma, then you stop doing it there.

  34. Lies! by p51d007 · · Score: 1, Informative

    Yeah right! I'm not a geologist, but anyone with 1/2 a brain knows that earthquakes are caused by the plates in the earth shifting. Fracking doesn't drill down anywhere close to the plates.

  35. Re:Okay, so this has what to do with fracking then by bzipitidoo · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Standard denialist garbage. What amount of fact is enough to convince you? Think about that for a moment. What data would you have to see, to be convinced that fracking is causing earthquakes?

    As to proof, how do you know anything is real? We might be living on a roughly spherical shaped object lit by a much larger nearby roughly spherical object, or we might not. We could be living in a giant simulator that is so good, supernaturally good, that we can't tell it apart from reality. God could have created the universe in 7 days. How can we tell? We can't! We understand that we can make good conclusions from observable reality, no matter whether it is real or not. To the best of our knowledge, what we observe is real, but we understand there could be a deeper reality. Whether there is or not does not affect our work.

    --
    Intellectual Property is a monopolistic, selfish, and defective concept. It is "tyranny over the mind of man"
  36. Re:Okay, so this has what to do with fracking then by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The politics of not having my property and quality of life destroyed by an asshat company's pursuit of profits. And by the way, trickle-down economics policies don't work.

  37. Re: Okay, so this has what to do with fracking the by niftymitch · · Score: 2

    So what this has to do with fracking is that they thought that just pumping fluid back in would hold things up, but clearly that's not true.

    That's not at all how it works. The fluid exists to create hydraulic pressure. They put sand or tiny ceramic balls in the water to fill the voids created by the fractures to "hold things up."

    ......

    And the interesting part is that there are quakes and there are QUAKES.

    Not just energy but location. The serious risk of quakes involves some darn
    deep structures. Deeper than any well and with vastly greater risk to
    life and property.

    Hydraulic fracturing and pumping waste to include CO2 into deep wells
    can be expected to generate measurable seismic events. Some might
    be felt without instruments.

    Recall the coal fire and collapse in Utah generated a 3.9 on the Richter scale.
    http://www.seis.utah.edu/Repor...

    This is a far cry from the New Madrid quakes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1...
    with magnitudes of 7.0 to 8.1.

    The seismic risk of the central US is not well understood and is not well considered in
    building and construction codes. Also no large quake is well considered in disaster
    planning. Worse the impact of a large mid-west quake has much larger geographic
    reach than a similar quake in Alaska or California.

    Sadly the fracking fools will take this as a reason to stop fracking at any depth.
    Most of the New Madrid seismicity is located between 3 and 15 miles (4.8 and 24.1 km) beneath the Earth's surface.
    Most fracking in OK is shallow by comparison (1-2 miles).

    Some believe that shallow releases of energy is a good thing and minimizes the
    size and impact of deeper quakes. I am of the opinion that injecting fluids
    does not increase the energy of natural quakes but might alter the
    timing and energy dispersal profile. My opinion like most is not supported
    by experimental facts and is just that opinion.

    Hidden in the report is a disclosure of many seismic sensors and
    plans to obtain funding for more. More science is good but the
    social media and news outlet ignorance is being manipulated by
    a plethora of interests one of which is network ratings where facts
    are not an issue.

    --
    Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't. Mark Twain.
  38. Re:Okay, so this has what to do with fracking then by niftymitch · · Score: 2

    A majority of them are too small to be felt, but we have had 5.9's and 4.0's before. .....
    The big deal is that it's starting to damage buildings. ......

    Historic building codes in OK are not seismic risk aware.
    Only recently have the codes in the hot spot around New Madrid
    been partly addressed. In Calif there is a major industry
    retrofitting buildings. It is costly and it is being driven by
    an industry that profits from it. It is a good thing to reinforce
    buildings, it is less good when the invoice arrives.

    The cost of seismic retrofit in the Midwest could bankrupt
    many states... and for the same reason tornado shelters
    are not part of all schools, offices, shopping malls and homes
    are not going to happen over night.

    First building codes for new construction need to
    be considered. Trailer houses like many single
    story wood frame houses have less risk from quakes
    than they do from tornadoes.... I hope regulators do
    not bankrupt the Midwest....

    --
    Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't. Mark Twain.
  39. It's All Good by rubycodez · · Score: 1

    1. Good to relieve pressure in these mostly tiny, barely noticeable quakes
    2. We need fossil fuel, that's reality for now
    3. It's just Oklahoma for fuck's sake, so who gives a shit?

  40. Re:Okay, so this has what to do with fracking then by Rei · · Score: 2

    Standard denialist garbage. What amount of fact is enough to convince you?

    How about peer-reviewed data with a peer-reviewed statistical correlation?

    Is that really that unfair of a requirement?

    --
    I was watching this thing on TV about some guy named Hitler. Someone should stop him!
  41. Re:Okay, so this has what to do with fracking then by bzipitidoo · · Score: 2

    Is peer-reviewed data with a peer-reviewed statistical correlation really that unfair of a requirement?

    Maybe. If that's demanded for proof that the sky is blue, water flows downhill, the sun rises in the east, 2+2=4, or God exists, then it is an unfair requirement. Don't ask for proof for simple conclusions that anyone can reach with Occam's Razor. Don't demand proof for the unprovable. Raising those aren't expressing honest doubts, it's playing politics, using doubt to block further inquiry, delay remedial action that might impact someone negatively.

    Rather, ask for proof of the counterintuitive. It makes sense that messing with the underground will cause changes in the underground that manifest as earthquakes, and also contamination of underground waters. Prove that fracking does not cause earthquakes. Peer review the proof. I suspect it can't be done, because fracking can and does cause earthquakes.

    --
    Intellectual Property is a monopolistic, selfish, and defective concept. It is "tyranny over the mind of man"
  42. The water follows the cracks... by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

    I dont get it. The average depth of oil/gas wells here in Oklahoma is approx 5,000 ft. The typical depth of earthquakes here in Oklahoma is approx 16,000 ft. I'm not seeing a connection between the two.

    First: You're looking at the wrong wells. What's the depth of the injection wells?

    Second: The depth of the well doesn't particularly matter, as long as it connects the water to a fault system. The water spreads out through the fault, turning it into a hydraulic jack the size of a small eastern state or so. The faults aren't purely horizontal and the pressure (except for an added component at greater depth from the weight of the water above it) is the same everywhere.

    So of course the earthquakes take place at the usual depths where the "last straw" rock finally gives way.

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  43. Re:Okay, so this has what to do with fracking then by Megane · · Score: 1

    My house is developing a few cracks here and there, and some people are even getting serious enough as to having some foundational issues.

    This also happens in central Texas, where there aren't baby earthquakes happening. It's caused by ground settling under a slab foundation due to drought, and then again from the reverse when the drought ends. It's also the reason you don't have basements in Oklahoma or most of Texas, because eventually the foundations would just get floated out of the ground. Just because baby earthquakes are happening at the same time as cracks in the walls doesn't imply cause.

    --
    #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
  44. Re:Okay, so this has what to do with fracking then by mewrei · · Score: 1

    If it were a compressive load on my slab then yes, but this is shearing damage.

  45. Re:Okay, so this has what to do with fracking then by Megane · · Score: 1

    Not sure what you mean by that, but I've seen diagonal cracks in sheetrock before due to slab shifting.

    --
    #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
  46. Re:Okay, so this has what to do with fracking then by mewrei · · Score: 1

    Shearing load results in the slab foundation separating from the slab in a non-uniform matter (which is a very, very bad thing) while the dimensions of both the slab and house remaining constant. You can also get cracks inside the house that are the result of one portion of the house moving in a different direction, than the rest (i.e. more shear load).

  47. Better Pray! by JimSadler · · Score: 1

    Probably the most savage quake ever to occur in the US was in Missouri before many European types were in that state. Oklahoma is a bit close and I am wondering if we are about to see a super quake in that region again. The consequences would be awful. Native Americans who occupied tents or other lite weight shelters did not have bricks and concrete falling on them. modern buildings would have no chance in that severe a quake.

  48. Re:Okay, so this has what to do with fracking then by Jeeeb · · Score: 1

    How about peer-reviewed data with a peer-reviewed statistical correlation? Is that really that unfair of a requirement?

    There's tonnes of peer reviewed data out on this. In fact TFS has a link to one such paper. The fact that fracking causes seismic activity is not in doubt at all in geophysics circles. The correlations are dead easy as well. If you have the data, it is easy to produce graphs showing large increases in seismic activity when injection is taking place.

    What's a more interesting question is whether the current data is capturing all the seismic activity being induced and whether some of the larger quakes that occured have been natural or induced.

  49. Re:Not a good thing by ganjadude · · Score: 1

    Most.of.the quakes have been unnoticed except for.detection machines, meaning that if no one even feels it, its still not.a bad thing

    --
    have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
  50. Re:Not a good thing by sjames · · Score: 1

    A 3.0 is noticeable without a seismograph. While a single 3.0 is no big deal, 240 of them in a year can crack your foundation.

    So if you prefer, "Your honor, I assure you, his house would have been condemned eventually, I just got it over with 40 years early.

  51. Re:Okay, so this has what to do with fracking then by Loopy · · Score: 2

    You do realize that making patronizing statements with "standard denialist" in your litany is actually counterproductive to any sort of rational debate, don't you? Either facts stand on their own in the face of dissent or they don't. And the "facts" of today might not be the "facts" of tomorrow, assuming we are continually collecting data (defined as the result of scientific measures/experiments).

    As for "masses of anecdotes resulting in data," I would point you to all the "we can light our tap water on fire because fracking" people, some of whom have neighbors with recorded family history of flammable tap water going back into the 19th century.

  52. Re:Okay, so this has what to do with fracking then by ZosX · · Score: 1

    Because doesn't fracking fracture the strata and thus make the ground more unstable? Correct me if I'm wrong here. I don't know the magnitude, but it doesn't sound like a good thing to do overall. The whole thing is a bad idea period. How about just ending our addiction to oil? Nope. Can't do that while there is ground to rape and destroy so some cartel can stay in power for a few more years.

  53. Re:Okay, so this has what to do with fracking then by sdinfoserv · · Score: 1

    The difference today is the pressure used. The term itself 'fracking' is hydraulic fracturing of the gaseous rock. It takes an enormous amount of pressure to fracture rock. Also the slurry used to frack is different then just using plain old seawater. It contains quite a few known cancer causing agents. The slurry is patented and produced by the company Halliburton. You know - the company Dick Cheney was President of... The same Dick Cheney to pushed through the energy bill exempting energy company from polluting. Dick Cheney is just plain evil.

  54. Re:Okay, so this has what to do with fracking then by Reziac · · Score: 1

    As someone jocularly points out, that should be more or less "east of the Continental Divide" (rather than "east coast") -- because the eastern half of the continent doesn't have big quakes often enough to remind them to build for quakes. They've long since forgotten the massive New Madrid quakes of the 19th century.

    And Oklahoma is not a seismic-free zone in the first place. Here's a handy seismic zones chart -- you may notice OK in fact has a region of routine moderate earthquake activity:

    http://www.ivi-intl.com/pdfs/I...

    (And speaking as a long-time red-zone resident... y'all's wussies! :)

    --
    ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
  55. Re:Okay, so this has what to do with fracking then by Reziac · · Score: 1

    http://www.ivi-intl.com/pdfs/I...

    Oklahoma is NOT a quake-free region in the first place.

    Now if western North Dakota suddenly started having quakes (since per USGS records, ND has the lowest incidence of quakes of any U.S. state, and what quakes ND has are of the lowest average intensity of any state) ....then I'd listen.

    --
    ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
  56. Bullshit headline by carbonates · · Score: 1

    First of all, injection wells are not "fracking" (which is properly spelled fracing) and injection wells used for disposal of wastewater are not injecting only water from hydraulic fracturing. There are thousands of wells drilled with traditional vertical drilling methods in Oklahoma that produce water. There are wells that produce 90% water and 10% oil for most of the life of the well and this is common in some formations in Oklahoma (e.g. Mississippi Lime). That water has to be disposed of because it has high salinity- it was once ocean water- and the salinity is hard to deal with economically in traditional municipal wastewater treatment methods. In fact the aerospace industry and many other high-tech industries use disposal wells for disposing of various waste material. All of these disposal wells are regulated by the EPA as Class 2 wells. These injection well operators are contractors, providing a service to hundreds of different clients, mostly oil and gas, but not exclusively. They have operated these businesses since the 1940's (although at that time there were even fewer regulations and some of those disposal wells turned into Superfund sites (Southern California is one of those). Large amounts of the waste recovered by skimming and cleanup crews from the Macondo spill was injected into disposal wells.

    The oil and gas industry is recycling wastewater from hydraulic fracturing in many cases, but sadly not every operator can or will do it. Here are some examples in a WSJ article: http://online.wsj.com/news/art... There are companies that can recycle frac water to the point it is potable and a few are doing that. There are also companies that deliver their waste water to municipal sewage plant operators that can bring the water to standards that allow it to be discharged into surface rivers.

    1. I would acknowledge and even argue that the oil and gas industry needs to find more methods of recycling frac water. However, the conventional vertically drilled wells that have been around for many decades produce more wastewater than fracing in some areas. Examples are Mississippi Lime wells in Oklahoma and Kansas, Austin Chalk wells in Texas and Louisiana, and Phosphoria wells in the Rocky Mountains. Even the historically drilled well targets in Pennsylvania and Ohio have large quantities of water production associated with the oil. I think one reason the oil and gas industry is not reacting quickly to this is that they have ALWAYS had this much water to dispose of and the practice of hydraulic fracturing looks like more of the same to them.

    2. The EPA is doing a lousy job of monitoring these Class 2 wells. As soon as slight tremors are measured pumping needs to stop. Seismic surveys need to be done around the wells that have proven to be an issue and new wells need this added to the permitting requirement. Yes that will add $10 million or more to the cost of these wells, but the alternative is public hew and cry about the bogeyman (which is how the public views earthquakes, and most other natural phenomenon), and some legitimate concern about damages caused by these tremors to nearby structures.

    3. My own opinion is that fracturing with water is going to become an obsolete practice. Quite a few wells are now being fraced with liquid nitrogen gel, liquid carbon dioxide gel, propane gel, and liquified natural gas. This is the frac fluid of the future that will eliminate the need for using water. It does less damage to the formation because it is either an inert gas (nitrogen), a solvent to oil (carbon dioxide, propane and methane) or is native to the reservoir (propane and natural gas). Most water fracs damage the formation by the water being adsorbed into the shale. This occludes porosity and makes the well harder to produce. It only works because it is cheap- not because it is efficient and ideal for the rock.

  57. The number in the article is a bit off by rhalstead · · Score: 1

    California is listed as having over 10,000 earthquakes a year. This figure is more than a tad shy of equaling that (by over 40 times, let alone out numbering it by a factor of two. To say it's double is rediculous.: To quote the USGS: "Each year the southern California area has about 10,000 earthquakes. ... If there is a large earthquake, however, the aftershock sequence will produce many more earthquakes of all magnitudes for many months." http://earthquake.usgs.gov/lea... "

  58. Re:Okay, so this has what to do with fracking then by rally2xs · · Score: 1

    Such policies have raised 250,000,000 people out of poverty in India and 400,000,000 people out of poverty in China. Yes, they do work. They're just not working here because they've been taxed and regulated out of the country.

    Liberalism is the ideology of envy, resentment, hatred, and self hate - which you demonstrate by your "asshat company's pursuit of profits" phrase. In reality, that pursuit of profits is repeated on a personal level for every one of us. But with the company operating nearby, many local people's pursuit of profits, to get or keep themselves out of poverty, works better than if the company is NOT nearby.

    They're likely to start fracking in this area. I say bring it on. If there's a minor earthquake and something cracks or moves, or maybe one of my trophies falls off a shelf and breaks, well, that's what I have insurance for...

  59. Force earthquakes in California to reduce stress by trelony · · Score: 1

    If it is possible to cause an earthquake, California is waiting for a big one. The stress has been mounting for a long time. If we cannot make several smaller earthquakes, at least make it on our schedule.