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Rocket Scientist Designs "Flare" Pot That Cooks Food 40% Faster
An anonymous reader writes Oxford University engineering professor Dr Thomas Povey just invented a new cooking pot that heats food 40% faster. The pot is made from cast aluminum, and it features fins that direct flames across the bottom and up the sides, capturing energy that would otherwise be wasted. The pot is set to hit the market next month in the UK. "Povey specializes in the design of high-efficiency cooling systems for next-generation jet engines. He is also an avid mountaineer and says that this invention was spurred by the long time it takes for water to reach a boil at high altitudes. He and a group of his students worked three years experimenting with different designs before they came up with one being marketed."
I'm going to try and buy some... sadly live in the US so this might be complicated... and ironically they're apparently made in the US... yet not sold here... Why are so many companies incompetent at just shutting up and taking my money!
I ran into a similar situation with an Italian movie company... I wanted to buy an Italian movie... you cannot buy it... it isn't possible. They're not on any of the streaming sites. They're not on any of the online retailing sites... its literally impossible to buy the movie... what I had to do in the end was buy a used copy from Amazon... because that was the only option.
Its maddening... offer your products on the global market place please.
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
The pictures show it to be quite different.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
did you even click on the link of the article?, I cant even see the resemble between a jetboil(googled it up) and those in the article
go ahead and post the jetboil that has the same design
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Not to mention that as a mountaineer, I'd think he'd care more about cooking efficiency than cook time. And while it's great to utilize the flame energy more efficiently, there's a far more significant optimization one can do - make insulated cozies that fit your pots. Bring to a boil, shut off the heat, put the pot it in the cozy and let it cook. For my pots, I made an underpiece and a lid that fits over each other, both out of aluminized foam; it works very well.
(Of course, he could be one of those people that doesn't eat any "cooked" meals, only the "just add boiling water" meals. In that case, then I guess it's all about the efficiency of using the energy from the flame
What I want to see in backpacking is a full integrated system. Where the tent is a hammock is a backpack is a ground cloth is a pack cover is a camp chair and so on down the line, where most components serve multiple uses. When I think about how much "fabric" and "rigid structures" I carry with me that if designed properly could be eliminated, it just seems like a waste.
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Once again, -after- someone else makes something I think, wow that's so obvious.
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Since I have an electric stove - together with probably more than 95% of all households where I live (in Sweden).
The latest fad is induction heating, and I don't see that such a pot would be any advance there either.
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I didn't view the images because you just get black squares without scripts. Come on, Slashdot, link a site that can write HTML, not where they're too incompetent to display images without javascript. This is 1990s technology. What year is it?
Anyway, on topic, all you actually need is a skirt to channel heat up the sides of the pot. If it's a little lower than the pot itself then the heat will flow up the sides of the pot and you get massively more heat transfer. One little piece of sheet metal, done.
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A liquid boils when it reaches the temperature at which the partial pressure of its vapor equals the external pressure. Higher altitude means lower external pressure which means water boils at a lower temperature at high altitude which means a pot of water boils faster, but food cooks more slowly.
No, I don't believe it boils faster. Granted, as you correctly explain, it takes less energy to boil water at high altitude, but there's other factors you're leaving out, for instance, the big one I know about: efficiency of combustion. So while it takes less energy to boil that water, guess what you're getting from your stove? A lot less energy...
I use a couple of inch (5 cm) high ring of aluminum foil, shiny side in, around the burner. That reflects heat from the burner and the pot itself back onto the pot, and reduces convection losses by partly blocking air coming in around the edges. Obviously if you are using gas burners, you need enough air for the flame. A strip of foil is going to be way way cheaper than an $85 pot.
When choosing pots, pick one that is black, not shiny, or make it black by burning stuff on the outside. Black surfaces absorb heat better.
I'd be interested. My room mate uses high to boil water no matter how large of a pot she's using. I keep trying to explain to her it just wastes energy to have flames that are are going further out than the pot sides, but she swears it boils faster. Even though she walks away and doesn't come back till it's been boiling for at least 10 minutes.
So, what this pan does is actually very simple; the fins on the sides provide more surface area to catch the heat that slides up the side by convection forces when the pan sits on a gas burner. The "gas burner" part is incredibly important, as if you have an electric burner there will be negligible benefit, and maybe even a negative result. That extra surface area can bleed heat as well as it collects it. And since the pans are cast aluminum, if you have an induction cooktop they won't work at all.
So, let's say you have a gas burner, and one of these pans. Here's what I see as a potential issue. The walls of this pan will get hotter than they do when you use another more traditional type of pan. And that's not necessarily a problem, as long as you keep stirring. But that extra heat will tend to cause liquid at the edge/top of the contents of the pan (the meniscus) to heat far more aggressively. Which means that you will likely get a degree of crusting, scorching, etc...depending on what's in the pan, of course. Water? No problem, it's water. But if you're cooking a sauce, or making something like boxed risotto (not the real hardcore risotto, which requires constant stirring and so would not scorch) or some other grain, you may have some issues. They have a stockpot, which at first would seem like the ideal situation...except that if you're doing most things you would do with a classical stockpot (like making a large batch of stock or soup or stew) you may have MAJOR issues with that scorching.
I have to say...I have a gas cooktop, I cook a lot, I cook elaborately, we have a gas dryer, we have gas-fired heat in the winter. It's a decent-sized single family home. And my gas bill doesn't get high at all...average is a bit less than $50/month. I find it hard to imagine that these pots would make much of a difference in my gas consumption at all. Maybe if my cooktop were really wimpy, the speed of cooking would be nice...but isn't the better option just to get a better cooktop in that case? These pans don't help if you're using a skillet, or the oven (which would also probably be weak if the top burners of the stove are weak), and they cost quite a lot. It'd be cheaper to just upgrade the cooktop than replace all of your pans with this, and the results will be more controllable. I'd love a big pot to boil water for pasta that worked like this...but for every other application it seems to me that upgrading the range would be a better way to go.
But hey, that's just my two cents.
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Welcome, we have arrived in the 21st century, where fast food meets rocket science!
A lot two dollar words to simply say; I added more surface area to the side of the pot.
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When I was in the military and trying to cook frozen food over a camp stove in the Arctic we used pressure cookers. It is fast and heated the food completely without burning the bottom. It is also the most energy-efficient method of cooking Now if they added the flare design to a pressure cooker they might have the best of both designs.
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Well, field trials revealed that he was too good and raised the temperature to nearly the melting point of aluminium! The flue gases and soot abraded the bottom of the pots and they started leaking in just a few sessions. The older inefficient method wasted firewood, but the pots lasted longer.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
What about this link says the design is better?
so everyone who does not have a gas stove does not care (which is pretty much everyone I know) - much to my dismay because I like gas stoves :(
I am intrigued by your ideas, and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
I think that the combo tent/backpack/hammock would be a challenge, since each has different materials for different purposes. But the weight savings (or comfort from not doing without) could be substantial (at least, in an activity where people are said to snap handles off toothbrushes to save weight), and now that you mention it I'm surprised that somebody hasn't tried before. If I actually see the product on shelves some day I'll raise a glass to ya.
I'm not much of an aluminum fan for cookware. Since its made via casting, how about an iron one?
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Or I guess he never heard of or used MSR equipment, eh? Y'know, 'cuz it's only been around, like, thirty-five years or so.
http://www.cascadedesigns.com/...
The MSR reactor is the best stove I've used. Fuel efficient and fast, if a bit pricey. Sometimes I consider using it in my kitchen instead of the range.
I admit that when I saw his design the first thought was backpacking only. Imagine washing something burnt off the bottom of that; I would only want to boil water in it.
The issue with this pot in backpacking is that it looks heavier, and people get crazy when it comes to losing a couple grams. I imagine that you will save fuel in the long run but you also will have trouble storing stuff in your pot (my 1L pot is the perfect diameter for butane canisters to slide in).
Props for the invention, and honestly if you want to make something expensive and marginally better than the rest of the products on the market backpackers are a decent choice.
Ok, how about: "it boils colder, making cooking slower"? Because that's what mountaineers and other people at high altitude complain; e.g., pasta takes forever to cook properly (whatever they mean by it), resulting in a goopy consistency.
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It is more similar than it is different. Both uses a set of fins (in jetboil, it is underneath the pan) to effectively reroute the energy that otherwise would have dissipated. Actually, with the fins being on the outside for this design, I think it would be less efficient compared to jetboil.
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I had one of those years ago but my equipment got stolen. It was OK but took up a lot of space. I was a bike camper and shoved everything into my backpack.
Reminds me of
http://www.partsconnexion.com/...
Mostly random stuff.
This is a good opportunity to quote this famous faxlore.. Heaven is where the police are British, the lovers French, the mechanics German, the chefs Italian, and it is all organized by the Swiss. Hell is where the police are German, the lovers Swiss, the mechanics French, the chefs British, and it is all organized by the Italians.
Have you ever tried to boil a pot of water outside? Especially when it's cold and the wind is blowing? And when the only fuel you have is what you carried in on your back? Even in a tent it's a challenge.
I'd hardly call the Flare pot a breakthrough, although it is a very smart design.
Corrugated, punctated, ungulated, and other stressed-surface cooking pots have been around for thousands of years for this exact reason. The Guarani of Brazil basically perfected the technique in their incredibly efficient cooking pots--this was the topic of my Fulbright archaeological research in 2008-2009.
In ceramics, a corrugated finish not only takes better advantage of the fire, but also prevents thermal stress fractures, so long as an appropriate temper has also been added to the clay. Archaeologist James M. Skibo has been studying the profound efficiency of indigenous cookware since the '80s. Where once archaeologists though of cookware as "crudware", it is now generally viewed as a technological feat of immense importance and skill.
It looks like there's more to it than increased surface area - the Coand effect may be at work here, making the plumes of hot gas creep along the "trenches" rather than flare out. There's a video where it kind of shows what I mean at (1'25").
Then again, this may be just a case of increased area for heat transfer. I'm not a rocket engineer.
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The pictures don't show the inside. If the inside bottom is as tortuous as the outside, the cleaning is gonna be a real challenge indeed.
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not sure i'd want to use a Jetboil on my cooker at home as a regular exercise. what's Jetboil like on an electric hob?
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Jetboil is great for camping - not so great for everyday stovetop use - the exchanger is way too delicate and the insulation jacket is impractical for a set of pots and pans. MSR Reactor is similar (I prefer it - no jacket - if my MSR Rocket ever fails it'll be next), and I expect a lot of the benefit from both comes from a much better windscreen - and that includes the Jetboil accordion that helps channel the heat. The biggest issue with any camp stove that perches a pot above a burner is the relatively giant wind-whipped space between them. You learn to practice a delicate dance of non-flammable objects upwind of your stove - chef included - with most others. The trusty old suitcase Coleman stoves are still revered for having this built into the design, but for backpacking they're an albatross. Jetboils are also only for boiling water - cooking in them can cause the aluminum exchanger to fail, as they depend on the constant flow of heat into the water - this has been an issue with Jetboils, though predominantly with the Ti version.
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The flare pot looks nice and it might improve heat transfer. If the interior is also fluted, it would be very difficult to keep clean.
Interior is non-stick and would be impossible to use if fluted for most applications. Imagine trying to fry an egg in a fluted interior. It's not a bundt pan.
Personally I'd prefer it without the nonstick surface (or non-stick optional) and for it to be machine washable. With a few specialty exceptions all my pans are machine washable which is super convenient. If it is machine washable the cleaning issues self resolve by putting it in the dishwasher.
JetBoil has a lot of pieces that can become damaged and compromise the efficiency of the product. This one is a single, solid piece that just functions by having a much larger surface area due to the rippled surface of the pan, thereby allowing it to contact more of the heat source than a conventional, single solid piece pan. This pan would appear easier to clean by far, and more difficult to damage.
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Ok, how about: "it boils colder, making cooking slower"? Because that's what mountaineers and other people at high altitude complain; e.g., pasta takes forever to cook properly (whatever they mean by it), resulting in a goopy consistency.
That part is completely true, and not what I was disagreeing with. At 10,000' cooking dried pasta is tricky. But at some altitude, it actually becomes impossible, because it takes 186F to even cook at all... Same with many other foods, cooking by boiling gets slower & slower, and eventually altogether impossible.
I've owned a 'tent/hammock'. It's useless for backpacking, too heavy and bulky. Hammocks have to be strong.
I suppose you could build an ultralight version, for jungle backpacking. Lose the end bars, make the hammock out of kevlar and make the cover mosquito net.
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Pressure cookers cook faster by raising the boiling point/temperature of steam. Less cooking time beats time to boil.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
As a backpacker I try to cut weight because each fraction of an ounce is something I have to lift with every step I take. I do a performance to weight calculation for each contemplated gear upgrade. There are many lightweight stoves for instance that are not such a good idea because slightly heavier stoves require less fuel to bring water to a boil, and so, because of the smaller volume of fuel required, give better performance to weight. How much more does a cast aluminum pot weigh compared to a simple light weight titanium pot? Now, take that weight differential and calculate how much fuel (of that weight) that would equate to. Does that (heavier) cast pot really give you a performance boost? Will your hike/climb really be more efficient with that piece of equipment?
The USA is only 4X older than me...perspective
Only with extruded food. So your pallet is 'Cheesy Poof', 'Slim Jim' and 'Noodle'.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Wait, does it cook the food faster? If pot heats faster by 40% it may not mean food will be ready in 40% less time. That's usually when you use pressurized cooker like Papin pot.
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Have you seen the picture in tfa? It will be a nightmare to clean, unless there is an inner layer smoothing the surface. But that would not be very efficient.
I agree wholeheartedly that the pot is more similar to the Jetboil in principle than different. There is a difference in details in that the Jetboil is designed for lighter weight and better heat transfer efficiency than the pot at the expense of a more fragile design.
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Are you talking about a Hennessy? I love mine. And I live in Iceland, where it's harder to use. I have no clue where you're getting that they're heavy. Unless you're comparing the regular nylon version to a silnylon tent, rather than nylon to nylon, silnylon to silnylon. The one-man silnylon versions are in the ballpark of 800 grams, including the fly. You kind of have to adapt them to use them as tents on the ground, though, they're not designed for that (but it is possible). Another criticism of them I have is that underside insulation seems to be an afterthought, and I'm not a big fan of their insulation kit (there's no reason it should be foam, I'd like a self-inflating mat). Their snakeskin packing system works well, but you can't pack up the hammock with the insulation on it; honestly, I'd love it if I could have my sleeping bag, hammock, and insulation all roll up as one element. And if had been designed to work both a tent and a hammock from the beginning, the insulation could double as a sleeping pad.
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Wouldn't a standard pressure cooker set to sea level pressure solve this problem?
I only use ceramic non-stick or all steel pots. I hope they have something more than "all aluminum" or it's at least coated with another non-toxic material.
It is a solid piece, and is dishwasher safe. How would the cleaning of it be any different than a ridged pie tin, a soufflé pan or a cupcake pan?
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Or very, very right.
I hate printers.
Mine's a cheapy, bought at an army surplus. 2 or 3 kilos and doesn't pack tight at all.
What do you sling a hammock between in Iceland? Two rocks?
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The breakfast of champions.
If you ever reach total enlightenment while drinking beer, I bet it makes beer shoot out your nose.
melted so fast when put on the burner. The bump/fins made them heat up too much.
by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
It may be more efficient, but its not going to help at altitude.
Water boils at lower temperature at high altitude. eg. 85 degree C. This means many foods to not get cooked. So you need a "Pressure cooker".
This will help at low altitudes, and that too for some things. For other stuff, this will cause caking and crusing due to too much heat.
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A pressure cooker cooks faster by boiling slower. If water boils at 90C instead of 100C, (say 190F instead of 212F) it boils faster, but keeps whatever you're trying to cook at a lower temperature, and because of that, the cooking time lengthens. This is an issue at high altitudes where air pressure is low, say 700 mmHg instead of 760 mmHg (or 12 psi instead of 14 psi at sea level) and the boiling bubbling equalizing pressure is reached at 90C instead of 100C at sea level. A pressure cooker is like taking a pot up high on the mountain, and carrying it deeper to sea level, or even below: it increases the boiling temperature by increasing the pressure inside the pot. The end result is 110C (230 F) boiling water, and in the higher temperature everything cooks faster, including eggs, pasta, veggies, etc. That is how a pressure cooker is more efficient in cooking, not by better heat transfer, but by creating a higher temperature, faster cooking environment inside itself. That's a lot of energy savings. However, ever since the Boston marathon bombing manhunt, the authorities don't like people buying pressure cookers.
Not a good idea to haul one on a hike, I presume.
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LOL +Insightful +Funny if I had the mod points
That I actually have done ;) On a 60-degree slope down into a deep canyon nonetheless! Also there's manmade objects and yes, *gasp* trees in some places ;) The country isn't totally treeless!
But yes, it's not exactly a very practical solution for Iceland. I'd really prefer something more designed for both roles, hanging and on the ground.
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Pretty sure (and the laws of physics would agree with me) that induction cooking methods will heat your pot far faster and more efficiently than gas, no matter what clever designs are achieved.
So what about those of us who don't have gas stove? I have elect, isn't Elect better then gas as far as wasted energy? there isn't a wasted flame the whole pot gets hot its just harder to control IMO
Jack of all trades,master of none
You must have a large family, or you save up a lot of dishes to justify using a dishwasher.
Nope. Just me and my wife. Usually have enough spare room in the dishwasher for a pan or two which often is all we need for a meal though I do end up washing many pans by hand, particular if they get stuck on crusty gunk. I don't mind washing them by hand but what's the point of having a dishwasher if you aren't going to use it? Plus the dishwasher can sterilize pans better than I can by hand which is necessary on occasion. Think of it like a low rent autoclave.
This isn't a new concept. It is well known larger surface area absorbs more heat. This exact design is widely used for backpack stoves so that you can heat up water quickly and waste little fuel, like for example Jetboil: http://www.jetboil.com/Product...
Wouldn't a standard pressure cooker set to sea level pressure solve this problem?
Pressure cookers help, a lot. But they're not "set to sea level pressure", they are set to a differential pressure of whatever the current pressure is + some fixed PSI. (Or, in the case of the one I use at home, your choice of 2 pressure offsets.) So you need either experience or some mental juggling to estimate cooking times with one.
So, yes, depending on your altitude, they can help a lot, or make it just like cooking at sea level, or make it faster. And they do make lightweight portable ones for camping. But "lightweight" and "portable" are relative. You would NOT schlep one of these along for a solo backpack trip. But if you have any kind of vehicle, or porters, supporting a more heavily-equipped trip, then it's certainly an option.
"Actually, with the fins being on the outside for this design, I think it would be less efficient compared to jetboil."
Nah. The fins up the side provide more surface area to capture waste rising heat. This also allows for better and more even dispersion of heat throughout the surface area of that which you are cooking, since instead of only heating the bottom you're getting the sides as well.
Jetboil still suffers from having the fins being confined to the bottom.
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That's just nonsense. Everyone knows coconut antimatter retrograde marshmallows only flute cats between hairdresser Barbie doll lawnmower Ricky Martin.
Write failed: Broken pipe
That's so dark, I can't make out its shape.
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Nope:
http://home.howstuffworks.com/...
The clear winner in the energy efficiency battle between gas and electric is gas. It takes about three times as much energy to produce and deliver electricity to your stove. According to the California Energy Commission, a gas stove will cost you less than half as much to operate (provided that you have an electronic ignition--not a pilot light).
The Turbopot has a finned aluminum base and promises a 59% improvment in efficiency.
http://www.turbopot.com/Soluti...
not sure why this was labelled troll material.
There is patent art going back to the 50s that looks a lot like this design. A design firm I worked for dropped the idea in the 90's because the marketing firm was convinced there was not IP to develop and sell to a large distribution company.
perhaps two kinds of yuppie backpackers.
The rest of us couldnt give a damn...we use what works.
The poster was correct, Jet boil aleady has fins to make boiling start faster, with less energy used. Take a look for yourself.
http://www.backcountry.com/jetboil-1.5-liter-cooking-pot/
And since the pans are cast aluminum, if you have an induction cooktop they won't work at all.
Induction works on anything conductive, not just iron.
There are a few other things that add to pressure cooking's efficiency. This is from a person who uses a pressure cooker (me), not an expert in heat transfer nor any other discipline of physics.
1. Most pressure cooker applications other than soup are steaming applications, and since the pressure cooker traps the steam in, you don't use nearly as much liquid as you would in traditional cooking. Less liquid = less energy to heat it up.
2. Less loss of heat through the top. After a pressure cooker reaches the desired pressure, you actually turn the burner down to its lowest setting (or whatever the lowest setting is on your stove to maintain pressure--on my stove, it's the lowest).
That's all I can think of for now, but I will say that a pressure cooker is a neat cooking tool. Especially if you live in a hot climate, like I do. Most of my summer cooking is on the grill, naturally, but I use the pressure cooker a bit, too, and it doesn't heat my house up too badly.
However, ever since the Boston marathon bombing manhunt, the authorities don't like people buying pressure cookers.
That's just not true. I bought my pressure cooker after the Boston Marathon bombings, and nobody gave me a second look. Anyway, modern pressure cookers have multiple safety mechanisms so they don't go boom like your grandma's pressure cooker did.
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And less cooking liquid vs. non-pressurized applications since very little steam is lost once the cooker as achieved pressure. Once the desired pressure is reached, you turn the burner onto its lowest setting while the food cooks.
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I purchased one of those induction hot-plates to try induction out before buying a (rather expensive) range top
Induction is a surprising pain in the a$$. Expensive (you knew that though) and full of safety interlocks so the only cookware you might own that works is the cast iron bacon skillet! In order for the interlock to allow operation a magnet must stick to the pan bottom, which is not the case for most stainless steel (yes, some flavors of stainless a magnet sticks to, but not what they typically use to make cookware) Copper or aluminum clad are out too. No glass, ceramic, or aluminum pots and pans either!
Resistance heating is more versatile than induction.
Since I live in an all-electric house, I would rather not have propane installed. The option is not ruled out completely since I like cooking on gas, but my wife prefers the perceived safety of not having gas lines. (She lost a cousin to a propane gas explosion) In the mean time I rebuilt the 1970's range top with new burners since I need a counter top to change the cook top! The counter is a drop in vs slide in headache. I have a slide in, and only drop in cook tops can be purchased currently.
Phil
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The hammock is probably unnecessary, and in backpacking, you really need to be prepared to do without.
But I wonder if combining the tent and the pack could work, such that the tent poles form the backpack frame and the tent the body. It would be tricky to get the form factor right on both (and if you're humping it for hours, form factor is crucial) but the tent already has an interior and a waterproof exterior. It could shave a kilo or so off your load, and that would be huge.
Folding it every morning would probably suck, but if it could get down to five minutes it might be worth it.
Back in the late 60s, my buddy in Boy Scouts did have a pack frame consisting of two tent pole sections held together by two pieces of plywood. Worked fine, but quite low tech.
I just literally spit my coffee out reading your comment. Bravo!
1f u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d Capitalization really works: i helped my uncle jack off a horse
The first time I heard of this problem being successfully addressed was the 1975 Everest SW Face expedition. they took pressure cookers (literally an off-the-shelf product) up to at least the Western Cwm, if not higher.
Sure, improving the efficiency of heat transfer from flame to pan would also help. But using a pressure cooker has an effective track record.
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Because people tend to stir in pots, leaving small scratches in the coating. You also use a LOT more heat under a pot (especially using propane), than putting stuf in an oven, letting things burn to the surface.
Pots are used where there's a risk of boiling over... Lot of surface/ridges for cleaning up burnt (since flames are licking up the side) milk/cream. Ever tried to clean that on an "easy clean" surface...
And don't you just love how:
Video: conventional uses 40% more energy (reduction of ~30%)
Article: uses 40% less energy /.: 40% faster (I'm pretty sure you don't boil an egg 40% faster by adding more heat to the water :-)
I learned to camp during the 80s, when we were transitioning from the "huge swaths of canvas with wooden poles" era to the "flimsy nylon with folding aluminum tubes" phase. It was so, so much better.
I was late 60s/early 70s - our tents were a swath of heavy canvas held up by an aluminum pole. No floor. And no love for them, either.