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Russia Prepares For Internet War Over Malaysian Jet

Posted by samzenpus on from the it's-going-to-be-a-long-night dept.

An anonymous reader writes The investigation of a Malaysian passenger jet shot down over Ukrainian rebel held territory is heating up. U.S. and U.K. news organizations are studiously trying to spread the blame, Russian ITAR, which, just earlier today was celebrating the downing of a large aircraft by rebel missiles in Torez (Google cache) is reporting that the rebels do not have access to the missiles needed for such attacks. The rebel commander who earlier today reported the downing of the aircraft has also issued a correction to earlier reports that they had captured BUK air defense systems with Russian sources now stating that the rebels do not posses such air defenses. The Ukrainian president has been attempting to frame the incident as a "terrorist attack". President Obama made contact with Vladimir Putin and has been instead treating it as an accident, calling it a "terrible tragedy" and saying that the priority is investigating whether U.S. citizens were involved. With control of the black box and its own internet propaganda army Russia may be in a good position to win the propaganda war.

25 of 503 comments (clear)

  1. Black box data streaming by justcauseisjustthat · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Why haven't all airplanes been upgraded so the black box data is streamed to satellites/ground stations? It's so dumb to have to search for a airplane to find the data, that should be the fallback plan. Hey FAA, you listening?

    1. Re:Black box data streaming by acoustix · · Score: 5, Interesting

      My guess is cost. Sending data via satellite is very expensive, and there's a lot of data recorded. As for ground stations, I'm not aware of any plane-to-ground data communications currently in use (other than radio for voice) so that would need a completely new infrastructure built.

      --
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    2. Re:Black box data streaming by justcauseisjustthat · · Score: 5, Interesting

      So we can put Wifi internet on airplanes, but not a virtual black box?

    3. Re:Black box data streaming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That's a good point, but its a small percentage of flights that have Internet access. Even in the US.

      The US is not always the best indication of what is possible or reasonable (or sane) in regards to mass transportation.

    4. Re:Black box data streaming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      My guess is cost. Sending data via satellite is very expensive, and there's a lot of data recorded. As for ground stations, I'm not aware of any plane-to-ground data communications currently in use (other than radio for voice) so that would need a completely new infrastructure built.

      Nope. Sorry to interrupt your speculation, but the reality is that there is technology available for that. It's been used in corporate private aviation etc. many decades already. It costs some money, it will cost something to install and operate, but it's not too expensive any more. The reasons why it isn't been used in commercial airliners is mainly it's just not been a requirement to install, there have not been accidents which would had it made a requirement and because airline operators are business trying to make money they avoid any extra costs they can.

      There is a very good summary of the state of this in Science Friday May 30, 2014 story following previous Malesian Airlines plane case.

      ac

    5. Re: Black box data streaming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      It wouldn't matter in this case. We know where the plane is and what happened to it. The most you would see is a big acceleration or yaw as the missile detonated, might hear the explosion on the voice recorder, or whatever before it stops recording as the plane came apart. The US is reporting their military surveillance saw the missile radar light up as it tracked the plane.

      There are now reports of monitored chatter among the separatists where they figured out it was civilian instead of military after the shoot down. There was also the tweet by the separatist general where he celebrated shooting down another Ukrainian plane and then deleted it. It really looks like it was the separatists who did it, using Russian weapons.

      This shoot down and the loss of innocent life is the direct result of Vladimir Putin's reckless behavior and fomenting violence in the Ukraine as he injects weapons, advisors, and military to try to take the Ukraine over. This rests squarely on his shoulders. He might as well have killed those 290 people with his own hands.

      The black box really won't provide anything not already known. What we need are radar tracking and satellite photos that show the position of the missile launcher before the missile was fired. That is the smoking gun needed to hang that communist megalomaniac bastard.

  2. meanwhile overnight... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    meanwhile overnight it's been reported by the telegraph.co.uk that a mobile launcher was seen headed back toward the russian border with two of it's four missiles missing, short video clip provided of one on the move at the website.

    1. Re:meanwhile overnight... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      I think I found it: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10976191/Malaysia-Airlines-crash-video-claims-to-show-missile-launcher-being-smuggled-into-Russia.html

    2. Re:meanwhile overnight... by OzPeter · · Score: 5, Informative

      Here is the story Malaysia Airlines plane crashes on Ukraine-Russia border - live

      The video is referenced as

      12.20 Tom Parfitt has picked up an intriguing Russian-language detail.
      Anton Gerashchenko, an adviser to Ukraine's interior minister, has made the latest of a series of claims that a Buk missile launcher allegedly used by pro-Russian rebels to knock down Flight MH17 was smuggled away into Russia overnight. He highlights a video which purportedly shows the launcher with two of its missiles missing, writing "it's not hard to guess why".
      “It was exactly these missiles which brought death to almost 300 innocent passengers of the ill-fated Malaysian Boeing,” he added.
      Mr Gerashchenko says the video was made by Ukrainian intelligence agents at 4.50am as the launcher was on the move towards the Russian border near the town of Krasnodon.
      We obviously can't confirm it's authenticity.

      The video is found here Buk launcher video

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    3. Re:meanwhile overnight... by invid · · Score: 5, Informative

      The only way the Russian's can "win" this propaganda war is if they can somehow convince those Europeans who make decisions about sanctions that they had nothing to do with the downing of the passenger jet. People will want to know where that Buk missile launcher came from, who gave the order to shoot, and where that missile launcher is now. If there is any evidence that the Russians had any direct involvement with this, no amount of propaganda will help them outside of the regions where they have complete control of the media.

      --
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    4. Re:meanwhile overnight... by Xest · · Score: 4, Informative

      Janes suggests that whilst training is needed, the launcher can operate in stand alone mode and even be set to fire autonomously at anything approaching it:

      http://www.janes.com/article/4...

      I suspect setting it in this mode could be done by a Ukrainian military defector, a Russian operative, or possibly even just by a smart operative being told over the phone or whatever how to set it into this mode. I doubt there's something mystical about it that stops someone being able to be talked through it, people have been talked through how to land aircraft before over comms with zero experience so it seems reasonable.

      Besides, it was only the other day the rebels were gloating about having shot down an actual Ukrainian transport at that sort of altitude, so they've already admitted they have the capability to launch this sort of missile anyway so that's not even in doubt at this point either way.

      It's not as if they haven't been able to launch massively succesful MLRS attacks in the last week either. There's clearly some extremely skilled military players working for the "rebels". I say rebels in quotes because the entire lineup of the rebels top team are actual Russians, or Ukrainians who have served with the Russian military I believe without exception. They're more actual Russian than they are Ukrainian rebel or separatist.

    5. Re:meanwhile overnight... by happy_place · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A reporter on location reported on NPR this morning that they had a couple witnesses that saw a flash prior to the downing of the launch. Apparently due to the pro-russian population of the village where it was downed, this is a very unpopular confession to make. This is a HUGE snafu for Russia, who has been arming the rebels, so they can continue to humiliate Ukrainian air power. I also think it is ridiculous that Obama is only speaking out of concern for possible US Citizens missing. The Netherlands are a solid ally, this is a terrible attrocity...

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    6. Re:meanwhile overnight... by Xest · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Right, but there's a difference between ethnicity and nationality. I'm referring to Russian nationals.

      Even those born in Ukraine, but who served in the Russian army post-soviet split up will also likely have Russian nationality.

      This, for what it's worth describes the "separatist" leadership. Igor Girkin the military leader of the "separatists" and Alexander Boradai, the political leader of the separatists are actual just plain old Russians, no natural Ukrainian association at all and don't even live in the Ukraine (well, not until this separatist movement started), they're both from Moscow.

      When the Ukrainian military destroyed a truck transporting I believe about 30 rebels, their coffins were all sent to Russia, because that's where they were all from.

      This is really the problem with the battle, a lot, possibly even a majority of those doing the fighting aren't even actually Ukrainian, they're simply out and out Russian, nationals, citizens, residents, fighting in the Ukraine for Russian ultra-nationalist expansionism. I'd say it's a new form of imperialist expansionism, but it's really not new. It actually harks back more to the days of the crusades where civilians often acted not in a state capacity, but simply only with the implicit support of the state to invade foreign lands to try and take them for their own.

  3. Let loose the dogs of misinformation! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Counter propaganda is rife, backpedaling at the speed of light by the ukrainian "rebel" commander (who's actually Russian) and hordes of incoherent babblegaffers vehemently denying everything and making it even more painfully obvious what's plain for everyone to see.
    Ukraine did not shoot down the Malaysian passenger jet, the rebels did, and boasted about it (then quickly removed the post).
    Just watch what happens in this thread.
    It will be very enlightening

  4. Active ops by eddy · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Seeing a lot of pro-russian "psyops" on one local forum attached to a news outlet focused on economics, so much so that it's pretty obvious that it's organized. Massive amounts of downvotes on anything negative to the pro-russian side, and weak conspiracy theories written in broken english moderated up.

    Not sure why they're wasting their time, but there you go. I guess the proud Cheka men have nothing better to do than troll forums.

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    Belief is the currency of delusion.
  5. Propaganda won't help this time by Rhywden · · Score: 5, Insightful

    That kind of propaganda might help them inside Russia where Putin has almost complete control over the press. But outside? With all the incriminating stuff that's already turned up?

    I really don't think that the other major players will be impressed by Russian propaganda. The Ukraine certainly won't. The US won't as well, due to their longstanding tradition of mistrusting Russia, in addition to having lost citizens in the crash. Neither will several states in the EU - the Netherlands won't be happy with an "accident" explanation, particularly in light of the fact that an anti-air missile cannot really be considered an accident.

  6. Russian Internet propaganda army by ArcadeMan · · Score: 4, Funny

    Hell, they were even able to enlist "Weird Al" Yankovic.

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  7. Russia has no choice by conquistadorst · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Russia has no choice, they have to do everything in their power to stem the international avalanche of disdain that would otherwise befall them. Think about it:
    1. 1. Russia denies wanting to annex eastern Ukraine
    2. 2. Russia denies supporting rebels
    3. 3. Russia denies arming rebels
    4. 4. Rebels then shoot down an international civilian aircraft using the very weapons they weren't supposed to have

    If the rebels are ever confirmed to have shot down the plane all of Russia's denials fall apart like a house of cards. Caught red handed. Except now there's international blood on their hands instead of just Ukrainian. Unfortunately for Ukraine, nobody really cares about them except their neighbors. So on that note, you can be guaranteed they will stop at nothing to prove rebels were not at fault. I have no doubt there will be people that will be "silenced". The stakes are simply too damn high.

    1. Re:Russia has no choice by ericloewe · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's not like their denials were ever worth anything.

      Putin denied having a single Russian operative in Crimea... until after the annexation, when he admitted that was a lie.

      Given all the evidence of Russian involvement, denials are pure soviet-style bullshit.

  8. Wrong priority! by Aethedor · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ... the priority is investigating whether U.S. citizens were involved.

    Seriously, is that really what matters now? What an arrogant *****. What really matters is who did it and why. What's the risk for other planes. If it were the rebels, how did they get their hands on such advanced weaponry. 298 people died. Who they were is something to find out by the airliner company. A president, and specially one from the USA, should really have other things to worry about.

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  9. Re:04.10.2010 by rasmusbr · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Russia already has a history of, at the very least, being a prime suspect for taking down a plane. The only difference now is that the world is actually watching this show more carefully.

    So does the US: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I...
    And Ukraine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S...

    The only real lesson is that surface to air missiles are way to dangerous to be put into the hands of the military. Now think about putting them into the hands of rednecks and other idiots who fancy themselves rebels. In retrospect it is pretty obvious that this had to happen sooner or later.

  10. Re:If only... by Rei · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Oh come on now, how could anyone mistake this guy for being gay?

    Seriously, though, some of his publicity stunts are almost Kim Jong-* level. While the "flying with geese to lead them home" one was funny, and the saving his camera crew from a savage tiger one was conveniently off camera, my favorite has to be the "finding ancient Greek pottery while diving in two meters of clear water on a popular beach" one. ;) Of course that one was so over the top even for him that they had to backtrack:

    But his spokesman Dmitry Peskov said in an interview shown Tuesday on the Dozhd TV channel that the jugs had been found earlier by archaeologists and placed there for Mr Putin. ... 'Of course, they were left there or placed there. It's completely normal. There's no reason to gloat about this and everything else.'

    Mr Putin is noted for his habit of appearing in vigorous and adventurous settings, including fishing and hunting while stripped to the waist and riding with leather-clad bikers.

    Again, though, let me stress - not gay! ;)

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  11. US and UK "spreading the blame"?? by steveha · · Score: 4, Insightful

    From the summary:

    U.S. and U.K. news organizations are studiously trying to spread the blame

    WTF? Is this intended to somehow suggest that the USA and/or UK share some portion of blame?

    The article linked in that part of the summary is a CNN article making the case that shoulder-fired missiles cannot reach 33,000 feet, so it must have been military gear. That's it... it even notes that both Russia and the Ukraine have such missiles.

    This is news, and a news organization is reporting on it. Go figure. "trying to spread the blame"? "studiously", even! Really?

    --
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  12. Re:US wars with Congressional approval since 1945: by halivar · · Score: 4, Informative

    13, actually. But please, continue with your rant.

  13. Re:If only... by gmhowell · · Score: 4, Informative

    He's one cowboy away from a Brokeback Mountain.

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