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California In the Running For Tesla Gigafactory
An anonymous reader writes Thanks to some clean-energy tax incentives approved late this spring, California appears to be in the running again for Tesla's "Gigafactory". From the article: "The decision should have been made by now, and ground broken, according to the company's timeline, but is on hold, allowing California, which was not in the race initially — CEO Elon Musk has called California an improbable choice, citing regulations — to throw its hat in the ring. 'In terms of viability, California has progressed. Now it's a four-plus-one race,' said Simon Sproule, Tesla's vice president of global communication and marketing, referring to the four named finalists — Texas, Arizona, New Mexico and Nevada — for the prize. That's heartening. Having the Gigafactory would be a vindication of Gov. Jerry Brown's drive to make California the home of advanced manufacturing, of which Tesla's battery technology is a prime example. With its technology, 'Tesla may be in position to disrupt industries well beyond the realm of traditional auto manufacturing. It's not just cars,' a Morgan Stanley analyst told Quartz, an online business publication last year.
Why the hell is Texas in the running? I mean, it makes perfect sense to reward a state that makes it as difficult as possible to sell a vehicle with Tesla's sales model.
Slashdot hadnt yet posted anything about Elon Musk today. My groupthink-o-meter was starting to dip back down below 'fellate'.
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
The plans for this factory have it automated to hell, employing a skeleton crew of human beings.
The plans include 6,500 employees.
https://www.greentechmedia.com...
We don't live in an agrarian society anymore... We don't need 9 children just to meet the needs of the farmable land. Population increase was good for the economy when work was the limiting factor. We are now in a population-positive economy that doesn't need so many workers, they are not the most efficient means of getting work done, and to make up work by using less efficient means is wasteful, environmentally unsound, and unsustainable.
It makes perfect (business) sense to locate it in a state with reasonable wages not drive up by unreasonable taxes and regulations, huge amounts of available land, common sense zoning restrictions, reasonable environmental regulations, and politicians that are actually interested in your business becoming a success . It's what's made the oil/gas/information services/computer/auto/semiconductor/etc. industry successful so far.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
The last time Tesla built a gigafactory it caused the Tunguska explosion!
frankly I dont know why anyone would want to open a business in cali right now. Business taxes are high, cost of living is high, regulations are horribly complex. Id much rather open a business pretty much anywhere else in the country over cali
have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
If you want to sell a Tesla in Calistan then it has to be built in Calistan by illegal aliens.
Rush Limbaugh called. He wanted us to tell you that you're a little over the top.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
How many factory workers were middle class, during this heyday of which you speak?
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
What are the masses of unemployed except for the lucky handful supposed to do to feed their families?
Get a job somewhere else other than Tesla. It's not the only employer in existence.
How many factory workers were middle class, during this heyday of which you speak?
In the 50's and 60's? Most of them.
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
Now if only trucks or trains could be used to transport lithium...
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
That is a tiny fraction of what US manufacturing used to employ
It's ONE COMPANY and a relatively small one at that. Do you expect them to single handedly employ everyone looking for work? 6500 jobs is a LOT of jobs but way to try to diminish a good thing there Debbie Downer.
During the heyday of the American middle class, GM employed hundreds of thousands of people.
They still do. GM presently directly employs roughly 219,000 people. Last I checked that qualifies as "hundreds of thousands of people". GMs suppliers employ about 6 times that many people for products made by GM. (look it up - there is roughly 6 manufacturing workers in the supply chain for every one at a major auto maker) And furthermore there is is a multiplier effect whereby every $1 spent in manufacturing results in approximately $1.35 in additional economic activity which means more jobs. The death of US manufacturing has been greatly exaggerated.
A surprisingly large number. Going back to the early days of the model T, Ford (the person) recognized that if he paid his people better than the usual factory wages, he would 1) have lower employee turnover, 2) short-circuit squabbles with the nascent labor unions, 3) increased productivity and throughput (see 1 and 2), and most importantly 4) be creating a population that could actually buy the product he was trying to produce.
More recently, during the heyday that the GP spoke of (1940s through 1970s, then declining through the early 2000s), an auto worker could expect a modest, but stable, middle-class lifestyle from his (it was mostly men) factory job. It was blue-collar, didn't require a college degree, and could support a family on a single income. The large tracts of modest homes that made up Detroit are a testament to this fact. The decline in manufacturing around Detroit has directly led to the general poverty of the city, the depopulation, the urban blight (whole blocks of abandoned homes), and eventual bankruptcy of the city.
If you can get it, the same can be said for an automotive job today, or building airplanes for Boeing. Or, until their decline, the textile industries in the American southeast or the lumber industries in northern states. There are fewer guarantees with a manufacturing job today - it may not be lifelong employment, and your prospects during retirement look less secure. Still, they are decent jobs for decent people, and (right or wrong) the kinds of jobs that cities and states climb over each other to get.
Which California? I hear there are 6 now.
Better known as 318230.
You would think that Tesla would build the plant in Detroit, not only is land cheap and most likely loads of incentives but it would be a direct slap in the face to the big three automakers.
frankly I dont know why anyone would want to open a business in cali right now.
Depends on the business. For certain types of businesses, California is where the talent is located. Not to say you can't locate a successful company elsewhere (you can!) but there is a reason you find a lot of tech companies in California just like there is a reason you find a lot of manufacturing companies in Michigan, a lot of finance companies in New York, etc. Despite the problems California didn't become the economic powerhouse it did by random chance. It got there because it has the right combination of institutions, resources, talent and location.
Id much rather open a business pretty much anywhere else in the country over cali
Then I'm guessing you haven't opened a lot of businesses. There are certain businesses that make tremendous sense in California and others that make sense elsewhere. Unless you are going to get considerably more specific about what type of business you are planning to open then you are not making any sort of reasonable point.
Yes, because moving lithium ore by rail from Nevada to California, or Texas, or any other candidate location would totally kill the economics of the endeavor. Nothing precludes Tesla from importing the lithium by sea, for that matter. They'll probably need to, in order to have enough for full production. The price of lithium is just one cost, and for a sophisticated manufactured product like a battery pack, not even the biggest cost.
The trouble in setting up there would be, what are you going to use for a workforce?
Likely as not, not locals, and how are you going to convince folks to me to Detroit, not much incentive to move to a barren, economically sparse, drug infested/violence infested area. I mean, Tesla can't possibly pay THAT high of wages to give folks incentive to brave it by moving there.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Lithium is probably under 4% of the total mass of the battery. Tesla's battery is primarily composed of lithium, nickel, aluminum, cobalt, and graphite. Nickel and aluminum are the big constituents by mass of the battery. Total lithium mass per battery is probably around 20kg. For 1,000,000 cars, that's about 22,000 tons. That might be enough to start production in the U.S., but more likely, Canada will supply most of the initial amounts of raw materials including the nickel and lithium.
Or typical evil big business as usual.
As long as we coddle these "big" guys, they will take it all and come begging for more.
"An arm and a leg? That was last year? What are you giving me this year? How about the other arm and the leg?"
"Both arms and legs? That was last year? What about this year? Look, as business we are supposed to look for profit and not feel stupid things like gratitude. I hear the other state has both legs and arms. If I don't extract it from them, my shareholders will sue. So see ya."
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
They should hire another 3,500 to stand around and get paid.
Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
I'm surprised California would even be in the running. Land is expensive, taxes are high, and cost of living is among the highest in the country.
By contrast, Arizona and Nevada have cheap land, low taxes, and low cost of living plus low labor costs.
California's main asset is its technology population, plus access to sea ports.
Should be interesting to see who wins. I would have thought that Mr. Musk would prefer to place his plant in a low cost region like Malaysia or south China, but I guess there are logistical and political reasons to keep it in the home country.
it's = "it is"; its = possessive. E.g., it's flapping its wings.
In the 1960's the minimum wage in the USA was worth about twice what is it now in constant dollars, at a time where 3-5 years of salary was enough to buy a home. Most automotive workers were not what we think now as middle class, but pretty close.
Or you could have zero jobs. It's not Tesla's responsibility to provide you with a livelihood.
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
Sacremento is out in the California Delta. There's already a severe water shortage, plus that crop land is among the best in the world. Bad place to build a huge factory that will draw thousands of people into the area.
So what? Musk can not bring back all jobs. And if you think that heavy labor jobs are returning to America, you are kidding yourself.
Instead, we need to focus on heavy automation, which will still require plenty of labor.
However, this also shows why the majority of illegals need to go. We can not afford to keep them here. 20-30 million people is a lot of mouths to feed and with decreasing blue-collar jobs.
"...vindication of Gov. Jerry Brown's..."
Great reason right there to not pick California.
How's that high speed rail construction project that was voted down by Californians 3 times with a large enough margin that it's a pretty clear shout of "Hell No!" each of the times it was vote on, that Jerry Brown is going ahead with anyway, working out?
Is it still taking place in a corridor where land is cheap because there's no place to get on or off the damn thing that has any significant population that would constitute the target ridership?
Is it still taking place in an era with no water to support future development potential, because all that water is being shipped down to Los Angeles, which is too lazy to build actual catchement, and just runs all their water off into the ocean, and is too lazy/cheap to build desalination plants powered by the waste heat from Diablo Canyon (which they'd prefer to have shut down, even though it's a zero carbon emission power plant)?
The man is a freaking public policy nightmare spendthrift, not to mention that Texas has no income tax; what moron would build a factory in California? Elon was just being nice when he didn't categorically rule it out when asked.
The trouble in setting up there would be, what are you going to use for a workforce?
You think there is a lack of a willing and capable workforce in Detroit Metro? You could not be more wrong. There are reasonable reasons to pick places other than Metro Detroit to build a factory but the blight in Detroit City and perceived lack of a workforce is not among them. Honestly I can't think of many better places to build a factory if you really look at the evidence. The opportunity is definitely there. You might find cheaper labor elsewhere but you aren't going to find a more capable labor force anywhere for manufacturing.
Likely as not, not locals
You bet. There is more manufacturing and engineering talent in Detroit metro than all but a handful of places in the US. Did you forget that GM has their headquarters in downtown Detroit? Where do you think they get their people from? Do you think it is by accident that almost every single car supplier of consequence has engineering operations somewhere near Detroit? Michigan ranks 4th in the nation in high tech jobs. Metro Detroit is the second largest source of tech jobs of any metro area in the US. If you want manufacturing talent you could do a lot worse than Michigan.
So yeah, the locals will do just fine.
how are you going to convince folks to me to Detroit, not much incentive to move to a barren, economically sparse, drug infested/violence infested area.
If you think that properly describes all of Detroit then you aren't wanted there and you clearly know little about the area. Downtown Detroit near the Renaissance Center has actually seen a pretty nice revival. Not to say the city overall doesn't have a long way to go (it very much does) but there are big parts of it that are nothing like the hell hole you are describing. Guys like Dan Gilbert are buying up all kinds of property and businesses are setting up shop left and right. It's a hell of an economic opportunity if your investment horizon is sufficiently long term. There are three major stadiums, a convention center, a university, three casinos, GM, outstanding restaurants, Whole Foods, and lots more all downtown. You really think Whole Foods is going to set up shop in the middle of a blighted, drug infested area? I just had a relative open up an upscale coffee shop in Downtown Detroit and another relative of mine has a fast casual restaurant at the Renaissance Center.
Furthermore it doesn't have to be in Detroit City. The Detroit Metro area is genuinely nice. I live in Oakland County which is immediately to the north of Detroit City and is one of the ten wealthiest counties in the entire US, has a AAA credit rating and is a genuinely nice place to live. Washtenaw and McComb counties are equally nice places. The University of Michigan as well as several other excellent local universities provides an outstanding local talent pool.
only problem with that is he would have the UAW up his ass every day and no one wants to deal with the UAW
have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
i take it you went to austin?
have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
There is zero nickle in a Li-ion cell. Nickel, on the other hand exists in some variants.
Anyway, it looks like the model S uses lithium nickel cobalt aluminium oxide "NCA" LiNiCoAlO2. Aluminium is almost free. lithium compounds are cheap (looks like 5-7k per ton, depending on grade or compound) in comparison to the other metals. Nickel is 18k a ton, and cobalt double that yet.
Both nickel and cobalt weigh around 60g per mole, with lithium a tenth of that, so they also need roughly ten times the mass of nickel and cobalt per mole of LiNiCoAlO2. I guess the lithium is sold as LiOH, which is only roughly a quarter lithium by mass. So to make 1 ton of lithium worth of the compound, you'd need:
4 tons LiOH - $24k
10 tons Ni $180k
10 tons Co $360k
4t aluminium $8k
so the lithium seems to be pretty inconsequential to the overall cost. Mind you those are just metal prices, which I guess is technical grade. If the batteries require better refined metal it probably costs more yet. Then you need graphite for the anode, steel? case, and whatever else bits.
So it looks like the GP is right (barring forgetting cobalt), unless i'm missing something with the chemistry..?
Sent from my PDP-11
I guess the compound mustn't be 1:1 Ni:Co as written, as some site shows Co and Li being 10% of mass, and Ni 50%, for reasons I don't entirely understand.
In that case Ni is by far the biggest cost, and Cobalt is still a bigger share of the cost than lithium.
It must actually be a mixture of LiNiAlO2 and LiCoAlO2 or something like this? my distant highschool chemistry is failing me.
Sent from my PDP-11
I love the irony that my post joking about Tesla's flamability is now modded Flamebait. Thank you modders, you have made my day :-D
No doubt it was a different time. In addition to few external competitors, the entire world was rebuilding due to WWII and recovering from a decade of pent up desire from the Great Depression.
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
Yes. There's also the matter of the labor unions and the screwed up politics of both Detroit and the state.
Neither of which are the problem you think they are. Michigan is now a Right To Work state. Whatever your feelings regarding that politically, it is clear evidence that unions are not the power they once were in Michigan. Both legislative houses and the governor are Republican at the moment and (like him or hate him) governor Rick Snyder (former CEO of Gateway Computer BTW) has been pretty business friendly. Frankly I don't run into anyone on a regular basis that is a member of any union.
Furthermore the economic problems in Michigan have cut a lot of the political BS away. Michigan is very actively courting business including a lot of battery business. A lot of business taxes have been eliminated in the last few years. Detroit City is under the control of an emergency manager. The politics there don't really interfere with anyone who is actually bringing money and business to the city. The politics in Michigan are no more screwed up than in any number of other states I could mention, including California. Virtually all the problems in Michigan are simply long term economic trends relating to the state's dependence on the auto industry.
I think it'd be far cheaper to move whatever fragment of that workforce which is still "capable" out of Michigan to California or Texas than it would be to build anything there.
You would be very wrong to believe that. What you are saying is as absurd as saying it would be cheaper to move the workforce for IT out of Silicon Valley. You clearly have no idea what life is actually like in Michigan.
You would be very wrong to believe that. What you are saying is as absurd as saying it would be cheaper to move the workforce for IT out of Silicon Valley. You clearly have no idea what life is actually like in Michigan.
Something which incidentally isn't that hard to do and actually happened. The IT workforce has been moving out of Silicon Valley for decades, just as it has for auto workers in Michigan. The difference is that someone has been moving back to California to replace those who left.
The national picture of Detroit and surrounding area..is pretty much one big,decaying heroin/crack den with abandoned and dilapidated properties...with tumbleweeds aplenty in the streets.
Hell, the episode of Drugs, Inc on the Nat. Geo channel alone painted a pretty bleak picture of Detroit spreading heroin around to not only itself, but the surviving suburbs that are still around the area.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........