For Half, Degrees In Computing, Math, Or Stats Lead To Other Jobs

dcblogs (1096431) writes The Census Bureau reports that only 26% of people with any type of four-year STEM degree are working in a STEM field. For those with a degree specifically in computer, math or statistics, the figure is 49%, nearly the same for engineering degrees. What happens to the other STEM trained workers? The largest numbers are managers at non-STEM businesses (22.5%), or having careers in education (17.7%), business/finance (13.2%) and office support (11.5%). Some other data points: Among those with college degrees in computer-related occupations, men are paid more than women ($90,354 vs. $78,859 on average), and African American workers are more likely to be unemployed than white or Asian workers.

Comments

~50% have no degree...

[Kenja]

Around half of STEM workers have no four year degree, to me that is more interesting.

Re:~50% have no degree...

[SQLGuru]

I've long said that the computing field is one where you can make decent money without a degree. I think a lot of that is due to how people in my generation started out tinkering in computers as a hobby and that mindset has still continued. Computer people value ability over certifications and degrees.

That being said, those pieces of paper open more doors (especially at larger corporations) than not having them. But it is quite possible to be gainfully employed at above median income levels without ever having taken any formal training in computer.

* I use the generic term "computers" to mean both the programming as well as the technology side. Whether that is coding in Java or Javascript or C++ or C# for programming, you can find someone that will hire you. For the technology side, it can range from desktop support to server admin or DBA. If you know what you're doing, other computer people will recognize that and respect you for it.

Re:~50% have no degree...

[gfxguy]

Agree... I was the only programmer in my last department that actually had a C.S. Degree; one guy was an education major, one had a degree in chemistry (I guess that's a lateral move in "STEM" as a whole). One guy had no degree at all, and that guy was probably the best programmer of us all.

Re:~50% have no degree...

[peon_a-z,A-Z,0-9$_ !]

In addition, people with a B.S. or B.A. (or even M.S., M.A.) in a Non-STEM field. (I.E. English, etc)

Re:~50% have no degree...

[blazer1024]

I used to be a programmer with no degree. I'd like to think I was pretty darn good at it... I knew several languages (C, C++, Python, Perl, Java, and several more) that I had taught myself. I did this for about 9 years, before I finally got a degree in CS, and then got a Master's in CS shortly afterward.

One thing this did for me is open up my mind quite a bit. I'm still a good programmer, but I now know programming isn't it. There's a lot more that goes on when it comes to developing good software, and though I could code up some pretty good stuff really quickly, now my code is better, more thought out, and most importantly, I am much more likely to ask the question "Is this really the problem we're trying to solve?" leading to actually useful code instead of neat stuff it turned out really wasn't what was needed.

In addition, I'm better at interacting with people. I used to have the attitude "This makes no sense to me, therefore it's stupid" and now I realize that maybe I don't have all of the information, there's something I don't know (this is key!) which would help me understand and realize my position isn't exactly right, and so I don't just get mad and storm off anymore when things don't make sense.

Getting a degree made me a more well rounded person... I found a love for history, music and literature that I didn't quite have before. I can have conversations that don't just involve the latest tech and video games. (though I still love talking about that stuff)

I guess my point is... a degree doesn't make a great programmer, but a degree can help make a better person (which is the whole point really... it's not to "learn a trade", it's to expand your horizons and explore the world and become a critical thinker) and so given the situation, I would likely lean toward hiring a great programmer with a degree over a great programmer without one.

Re:~50% have no degree...

[preaction]

I also do not have a degree, though I'm at year 13, and I've learned those lessons you said earning your degree taught you. It is good that you learned those lessons, but your conclusion is specious bordering on elitist.

I do have a large gap in knowledge. I made a great leap over a mountain of theory and low-level practice that I must fill in, but I (lucky for me) didn't need college to teach me humility and how to be receptive to learning (even when I "know" I'm right). The more I fill in that gap, the more I realize exactly how big that gap is, and strangely, the gap grows as it fills.

The point being: Though a university degree is how you reached... well... enlightenment, there are many paths. And if you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him.

Re:~50% have no degree...

[Ronin Developer]

Wow. Sounds like sour grapes from somebody who has chosen not to seek a degree or, for perhaps, maybe couldn't afford one, overly smart and found school boring or simply didn't have the necessary non-technical skills to get into college?

A four year degree, in most disciplines, might teach some technical skills. But, the value of an higher education is, as blazer1024 pointed out, is it prepares you to be able to think and learn and it improves the gene pool you are exposed to as well as to get laid. This was exactly the attitude my boss during my co-ops held as well and one I hold as well. A four year engineering or science degree isn't going to get you very far in those fields. You really need a masters or beyond to enter those disciplines. You seldom find non-degreed "engineers" working in an engineering discipline. In lieu of a degree, some states require you pass a licensing exam to perform engineering functions. Like passing the Bar exam, one doesn't need a law degree to become a lawyer. But, possessing the degree makes a world of difference in preparing you for the exam as well as open doors that a non-degreed person might never be able to step through.

Fortunately, software development ( and IT in general) is one field where someone with just the technical skills or a degree can enter, make a mark, and even advance. Sadly, I have found many such individuals, despite technical brilliance, lacking when it comes to discussing topics outside of their work or technical discussions.

College is designed to make people think and open their minds to new and different ideas. It offers and exposes you to ideas that only an academic world can offer.

I earned a BS in Physics. With a 4 year degree, I am not qualified to be world renowned physicist working at CERN, for example. Frankly, I wouldn't be taken seriously by the best scientists.

In fact, I seldom use my science degree. Upon graduating college, I entered Naval service as an officer where I travelled the world, met new people, encountered different viewpoints and ideas (and was trained to kill them). And, when I left service, I found that it was those life skills, along with a lesser degree my scientific and computer skills, that enabled me to be immediately hired into a higher, technical leadership position. I was still hands-on and developed code for years and chose not to be a project manager or executive - it didn't float my boat. Now, I am an solutions architect and, even after 25 years in the field, still love what I do. No, I do not hold a CS degree despite wanting to go back an earn it or a business degree - life interruptus.

So, don't knock higher education. Maybe for some, it fosters elitism. I say, that one should just realize what it can do to enrich your life.

What about those of us who aren't sure anymore?

[NecroPuppy]

My degree is in Computer Engineering, with some Master's work in Comp Sci...

And these days I mostly work system accreditation. That is, certifying that a given system is secure. I do relatively little of the tech work, but push a lot of paper.

Re:What about those of us who aren't sure anymore?

[NecroPuppy]

It's all the documentation on the system. Because it's not just enough to say "yes, we've secured it", we have to write it down.

It's all paper trails, man.

Re:What about those of us who aren't sure anymore?

[Charliemopps]

How does pushing paper ensure a system is secure?

You've clearly never worked in security.
You can never fully secure anything. All you can do is shift liability away from your business.
You need to reduce the chances of a breach to the point that the number that occur and lead to lawsuits costs you less than the effort to make it more secure.
You could technically require every customer to drive down to your main office in person and show ID before logging in... but what would that do to your business?
Secondly, procedure is everything. How do people handle data? What is the process for updating a router? LDAP? the VPN? etc?
90% of security is writing bulletproof process. 9% are the people that follow that process. 1% is HR firing people that don't.

If you just hire "Security people" and expect them to act "securely" you're just asking for trouble.

Re:What about those of us who aren't sure anymore?

[TechyImmigrant]

>You've clearly never worked in security.
Quick! Someone is wrong on the internet.

Incomplete data

[bradley13]

As usual, jumping to conclusions with incomplete data.

First, why analyze the percentage of computer and math degree holders who hold an IT job? Why is a mathematics degree automatically equivalent to a CS degree?

Then we get leaps like the pay gap between men and women. Most likely it's the usual thing: comparing men and women of the same age, without accounting for the fact that the women took more time off for child-rearing, worked part-time, etc.. Compensate for these things, and watch the pay gap disappear.

Why do many people with STEM degrees not work in STEM jobs? They apparently count management and education as non-STEM, even if these people are managing STEM projects or teaching STEM courses. That already accounts for the two biggest groups.

The rest of the conclusions are just as shaky. This appears to be a crappy study, deserving of no attention whatsoever...

Re:Incomplete data

[jedidiah]

> First, why analyze the percentage of computer and math degree holders who hold an IT job? Why is a mathematics degree automatically equivalent to a CS degree?

Computer Science is ultimately a branch of mathematics. That much should be obvious to anyone that's been through a decent University program.

STEM is the new liberal arts degree

[ranton]

The lure of a liberal arts degree has always been to have a very well rounded education that just makes you a smarter person instead of just teaching a certain profession. In today's technological world, STEM education is performing a very similar role. Learning high level math provides extreme advances in our current economy regardless of your actual job.

Hopefully colleges start to understand this and increase the level of math that all college graduates are required to learn. Perhaps in 20 years the average Gen Ed requirements of a Bachelors will require 20+ credits of math related courses to help prepare students for the modern world.

Re:STEM is the new liberal arts degree

[sribe]

In today's technological world, STEM education is performing a very similar role.

Yes, and to be blunt, I also think that in the past 20 years the rigor of the liberal arts degrees has been greatly reduced, making them even less valuable than they otherwise would have been.

For instance, math or compsci either one, you're going to learn about deductive and inductive proofs, which are highly valuable reasoning skills that will serve you well throughout life. In the old days, a philosophy course would have exposed the liberal arts major to a version that, while somewhat less rigorous, would have been greatly beneficial. These days that same student is likely not to be exposed to that at all, and worse may have his critical-thinking skills permanently damaged by the inane bullshit of deconstructionism.

Re:STEM is the new liberal arts degree

[brunes69]

I don't know what you consider "high level math", but if it is the same thing I am thinking of, I totally disagree with you.

I've been in the industry for over a decade, and have used the calculus and statistics required for my CS degree precisely never. And honestly there are hardly any professions that need either of these disciplines. Yes you should know some VERY BASIC statistics but the idea that everyone needs a university-level course in it is flawed.

IMO in CS degrees, the time spent on these courses would be much better spent on more algorithms courses and courses on actual development practice, both of which are VERY lacking with people coming out of university nowadays.. theyre' all hot-shot python hackers but have no idea what the difference between a linked list and an array list is.

Re:STEM is the new liberal arts degree

[frank_adrian314159]

I've been in the industry for over a decade, and have used the calculus and statistics required for my CS degree precisely never.

Well, I've been in the industry for over 30 years and I've found one good use for statistics during that time - it's great to sniff out BS. Like the crap spread by the VP of Quality who touts a 2% decline in customer calls YOY when the variance in this yearly data is around 5% and you didn't put out a major product release this year. Not that you're politically well-connected enough to call him on it, of course, but it's good to know that it's crap nonetheless, because next year, when you do get the next major version out, and the customer calls go up, you'll be ready to defend politically.

Re:STEM is the new liberal arts degree

[rk]

Let's match anecdote for anecdote: I've been in the industry for nearly 25 years, and I've used calculus quite a few times and statistics (beyond just mean/stddev type stuff) fairly regularly. Also a wild FFT and/or DCT has appeared a few times here and there. I'll readily admit my career has been a little different than most, including a near decade long stint at a NASA-funded research lab, but I've also had some of that stuff rear its head in odd places you might not expect, like doing predictive analysis programs for a manufacturing company, or programs to optimize course scheduling for college students. These tasks could not have been completed without at least exposure to more advanced mathematics.

Re:STEM is the new liberal arts degree

[ranton]

I've been in the industry for over a decade, and have used the calculus and statistics required for my CS degree precisely never.

That is no different than a philosophy student saying "I've been working for over a decade, and haven't had Plato's cave brought up in a single board meeting yet." The goal of a general education is not to train students in the tools they will use in their jobs, it is to train them how to think.

If you haven't used your increased capacity for logical thinking, or your ability to understand statistics greater than the average person, then you either never learned much in those classes or you just aren't being honest about how much you actually learned.

Re:STEM is the new liberal arts degree

[digsbo]

I'll take that a step up. I've been in the industry for 18 years, and each of the four places I've worked has had vital, revenue producing code that was based on higher math, either linear algebra, or something related to digital signal processing.

Re:STEM is the new liberal arts degree

[HornWumpus]

It's all down to the idiocy that is relativism. Logic, math and science are socially constructed and hence may be ignored at no cost.

Re:STEM is the new liberal arts degree

[ranton]

Learning high level math provides extreme advances in our current economy regardless of your actual job.

How so? That's a pretty bold statement.
I don't doubt your claim (I have a math bachelors degree, and a comp sci masters in progress), but I'd just like to hear your arguments.

The arguments are pretty standard. Math teaches logical thought, the use of precise definitions, the use of careful and rigorous arguments, etc, It involves taking a general problem and defining a set of very clearly stated problems and finding precise solutions to them. Those are the abstract answers, but in a world that is becoming more and more data driven, mathematical fields such as statistics even have practical applications for most fields. The mistake made by the first poster who claimed the article said 50% of STEM workers have no degree shows the problem with insufficient mathematical literacy.

Even higher for other degree fields.

[wcrowe]

That has always been true. The share is even higher for other degrees. Probably 70 percent with degrees in Liberal Arts lead to other jobs -- waiting on tables, for instance.

What about non-computing/engineering fields?

[Sockatume]

The STEM label mushes together computing fields and engineering, which have high pay and demand for jobs, with the sciences, which to be completely honest with you don't pay that great and have about a twenty to one candidate to job ratio. What would the result be like if we split them, I wonder?

compiling things form the article

[kick6]

50% of STEM workers have no degree 50% of SETM degree'd folks don't work in STEM ...yet somehow corporations "need" H1-Bs?

Shocking!

[Lawrence_Bird]

And you know what? I bet the same holds true of accouting, finance, marketing and certainly humanities degrees too.

um

[Charliemopps]

Because the majority of the people getting CS degrees now-a-days have no idea what they are doing.
And I don't mean, they just aren't good. I mean they barely even know how to type.
I worked with a guy a while back that was given 4 projects in a row and did absolutely no work on them. I liked the guy personally so he felt safe in asking me questions... He didn't even know how to define a variable or call an Object in the Language he specialized in. And I've met LOTS of people like that. He was probably the worst, but the quality of people with degrees in programming is awful. I'm not sure if it's just because it's something really hard to test for or if cheating is rampant. But there is definitely a problem. Most of the people I work with that don't have a degree and had to claw their way up are a lot better than the people that have 4yr degrees.

Also, programming jobs don't pay crap anymore. Managers at McDonalds make about the same as entry level program jobs.

Re:um

[retchdog]

Yeah, I can tell you that a CS "degree" which involves being "specialized" in a particular programming language is a bullshit trade diploma. It's not surprising that such an applicant is garbage; degrees in programming are for idiots. Smart people program on their own, or go to college for formal maths/sciences, or ideally both.

Here is the relevant stat...

[Karmashock]

We have fewer engineering jobs in the US then we did 20 years ago.

That's the stat that matters. End of discussion.

Re:Men

[McFly777]

Logical, but probably not the case; surveys matching career stage and field put the male-female wage gap on the order of 10%, which is in line with these results. (I forget the exact amount; it's likely to be a little more.)

Depending on how "career stage" is measured, the value may still be skewed due to the greater tendency for females to take years off for family care, etc. When returning to work, she may have to take a pay cut due to percieved "staleness" of her knowledge. This was the case for my wife and I (both engineers). She made more than I did before she quit to raise our kids. Ten years later, she could not hire back in at the same wage she left at, due to the employment gap. So even if you evaluate "career stage" as years-of-experience in an attempt to account for the time shift, her wage is now lower that mine at that same numbers of years. No discrimination necessary, just cause and effect of choices made.

In fact, I would guess that I would have had a harder time getting hired at all if I had the same employment gap. Society is more forgiving of gaps in a woman's employment (for family care) than for a man doing the same.

The question is nonsense.

[geekoid]

"STEM trained workers? "
They have degree in the field, not 'trained workers'.
You can have a BS Mathematics, and go into a number of fields that aren't specific to mathematics.
You think you get a degree in Mathematics and then go to the mathematics factory and churn out maths?

Plus, you can get a degree in something simply because it interests you, and not because you want a career in that field.

University is not job training. Please stop treating it as such.

Re:obvious

[CastrTroy]

By that logic, people who have kids should get paid more. People should be paid based on the work they accomplish, and not on their personal circumstances. If I choose to live in a smaller house, drive a cheap car, and live a meager lifestyle does that mean I should get paid less, because I don't "need" the money?