The High-Tech Warfare Behind the Israel - Hamas Conflict

Taco Cowboy writes The Israel — Hamas conflict in Gaza is not only about bombs, missiles, bullets, but also about cyberwarfare, battles of the mind over social media, smart underground tunnels and cloud-based missile launching systems. The tunnels that Hamas has dug deep beneath Gaza are embedded with high tech gadgets, courtesy of Qatar, which has funded Hamas with billions to equipped their tunnels with intelligent sensors which are networked to control centers enabling the command and control staff to quickly notify operatives nearby that IDF units are advancing inside a certain tunnel, allowing for rapid deployment of attack units and the setting up of bobby traps inside the tunnel.

In addition, Hamas has automated its rocket firing system using networked, cloud-based launching software provided by Qatar which can set off a rocket from any distance, and set them to go off at a specific time, using timers. "Anyone who thinks they have dozens of people sitting next to launchers firing rockets each time there is a barrage is mistaken," said Aviad Dadon, a senior cyber-security adviser at several Israeli government ministries. While Doha is allowing Hamas to use its technology to fight Israel, it's their own cyber-security the leaders of Qatar are worried about. For the Qataris, the war between Israel and Hamas is a proving ground to see how their investments in cyber systems have paid of — Qatar is very worried that one of its Gulf rivals — specifically Saudi Arabia — will use technology to attack it, and Qatar spends a great deal of money each year on shoring up its cyber-technology.

Comments

Hamas are Terrorists

[Tora]

Why is it our media (even this post) always seems to portray Hamas in a positive light?

This conflict would end the SECOND Hamas stopped their aggression. The moment Hamas stops shooting, IDF stops shooting, period. Hamas lies and has no moral honor, they betray everything, and want nothing less than to wipe other people off the face of the earth. How is that humanitarian and moral? And yet the western media doesn't portray that side of the story!

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

Weird. I'm quite sure there was a conflict even before Hamas existed.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

And it doesn't help Israel in the least when the pro-Israelis repeatedly lie their asses off.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

A plague on both your Houses Politicians , Military , Hamas, IDF. You are both as bad as each other in this genocide by mutual attrition. I just wish the rest of the world would withdraw all aid from all parties and leave you to get on with it or settle it depending on the true will amongst the civilian population.

Yes it would end in a bloodbath and genocide one way or the other I don't presume to know which way but then at least it would be settled instead of an ongoing blood feud for another 2000 years.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

Hamas lies and has no moral honor, they betray everything, and want nothing less than to wipe other people off the face of the earth. How is that humanitarian and moral? And yet the western media doesn't portray that side of the story!

Strange, anytime I hear from someone who is accused of being anti-Israeli all they talk about is how Israel lies about the impact of Hamas attacks, betrays any agreements it makes and won't be happy until there are no more Palestinians left to persecute, and then that person usually accuses the Western Media of ignoring all this.

Ever consider that the issue is more complicated than one side good, one side evil?

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[jaredm1]

If this discussion is going to descend in to 'Hamas as terrorists' then we should recognise the use of the word 'terrorism' as an adjective used to vilify one side and make an opposing side seem legitimate. The American revolutionaries were also considered terrorists as was Ghandi and Nelson Mandela. However, I don’t support Hamas’ use of violence to further their desire for a sovereign state. In fact, the state of Israel itself was founded a ‘terrorist organisation’ - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J... "The moment Hamas stops shooting, IDF stops shooting, period." - well that's great. But you realise Hamas are firing because they live in an occupation and under siege? They'll stop fighting when Israel pursues a 2-state strategy with sincerity. Israel has ignored its commitment to a 2-state solution in 2009. In 2012 it made agreements for a ceasefire but began laying siege to Gaza and throughout 2013 largely ignored any attempts of establishing peace (note: during this period Hamas had not killed or kidnapped a single Israeli civilian). In April this year, the talks collapsed as Abbas sought Palestinian membership in 15 UN conventions and reconciled with Hamas, and Israel made a surprise announcement of plans for 700 new settlements and refused to free a last batch of Palestinian prisoners which included Israeli-Arab citizens. That was April this year, before any of this conflict. Israel made clear it doesn't want Palestinians to pursue a non-violent route to statehood either. There you have it, if Israel wants peace it must offer the Palestinians what they have a right to - a fully functioning state with control over its own future. Don't call them Hamas terrorists for pursuing what they're entitled to and have been brutally denied even when seeking it peacefully.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

"This conflict would end the SECOND Hamas stopped their aggression." No, the military occupation of their land has continued unabated, so you're wrong.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[trout007]

Exactly. Once they stop defending their homeland and surrender to the occupying forces the conflict will stop.

Re: Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

Since when is Slashdot a pro Israel propaganda outlet? This "story" about Hamas' high tech weapons is supposed to make Israel's genocidal orgy look justified?

Fuck. That.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

One country's terrorist is another country's guerrilla fighter. Hamas started shooting because Israel has blockaded Gaza for years - many countries have gone to war over far less than that.

Re: Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

That Israel has been manipulating public opinion through its control of the media is obvious at this stage.

Look how far from the discussion is the fact that this whole conflict started with an escalation over the murdered teenagers. Murders that, to this day, have not been investigated.

Israel used that to engage in unprovoked attacks, and then used the resulting response as pretext for this genocidal outburst.

Those are the facts. All that has happened since is because Israel had every intention of using some pretext to engage in slaughter. It is just that simple.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed. The rest of the world is getting tired of the temper tantrums that have been going on for decades now. If the only peace you psychotics can work towards is a Carthaginian peace, then quit being half-assed about it. A lot of us in the US are no longer willing to pay to keep you from annihilating each other.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

Entitlement, that's funny.
What entitles you to have entitlement? Where does it begin? Where does it end?
Who is actually entitled to own that piece magical dirt in the middle east?
Is it Hamas, because the 'evil Jew' refuses to make peace? And because they were there before the Jews came? Is it the 'evil Jews", because they were there before the Ottoman Empire practically kicked them out if they didn't want to convert to Islam? At least here we know that Judaism existed first.

What most of us can agree with is that the population suffers in this conflict. Neither civilian Palestinians nor civilian Israeli are at fault here. Most of them didn't chose to be born into these worlds.

Re: Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

What is this junk?
Israeli propaganda to prop up the idea that hamas is somehow any kind of match to the Israeli war machine?
How about some an exposé on the tech behind the their automated rocket defense system that pretty much doesn't require them to do anything other watch em go pop in the sky.
But hey any excuse for an unnecessary pummeling to genocidal levels ay?
Might as well go all the way? No?
Keep some around, sow some seed and repeat all other again every decade or so?
Wouldn't want to deny Israeli all the sadistic fun they seem to be having harvesting such misery from others. Not at all - go right ahead, the rest of the world appears to gut to stop you or five a damn.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

The conflict will stop when we've exterminated every last one of them and Israel is whole. Once that is done we will come for anti-semitic pricks like you. Your president can't protect you any more than he can protect the dogs of Gaza.

Re: Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

1000 dead people is not genocidal pompous twat.

The conflict was lingering due to 12000 rockets, and dozens of infiltration attack tunnels (built with concrete delivered by Israel) and hundreds of suicide bombs.

Those are the facts. It is that simple.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

Israel was created by the CIA in the 1940's. Disgusting creatures like you are there to create a distraction that the christians would buy into.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

If that happens there will be a real genocide of the jews.
And this time no is going to come and stop it. Not a single jew will be left alive anywhere on the planet.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

"A plague on both your houses" = "I've no idea what your problems are and I can't be bothered to find out". Or very often anyway.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[HairyNevus]

Ahh yes, YouTube user "ziv121213". He's world-renowned as an expert on the Israeli side of the debate and would never upload a false video just to troll people.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

That's right. And in this case, it's appropriate. There are so many lies, half-truths, and propaganda coming from both sides that it's nearly impossible to determine what's actually happening and therefore make a sound, logical decision about "picking sides".

The only logical course of action is not to pick sides, and stay out of the conflict altogether.

I'm all for supplying humanitarian aid: food, medicine, etc. I'm completely against any military aid for either side.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Corwyn_123]

Gaza started as only a city. It's history is long and colorful, and smattered with conquests by many other civilizations, including Egypt, the Byzantines, the Ottomans, the Asyrians, Great Britain, and many others, the list goes on, spanning about 4000 years. It wasn't until the 20th century that Gaza was officially given to the Palestinians as anything more than a mere conquered (many times over), city, and it wasn't until 1948, that a Palestinian government, was officially recognized by the world at large as anything but a band of nomadic tribes, wandering around the Middle East.

Until 1948, Palestine was a part of Israel, within it's borders, even though modern times didn't recognize Israel as it's own political entity, history shows Israel something larger than a mere city for more than 5000 years. Yes, it has also changed hands over the centuries, but by and far, it's been governed by the same people far longer than Gaza was by the Palestinians.

It was 20th century politics and the UN that finally enacted a Palestine, and it was the UN that gave more than just a city to the Palestinians. The Palestinians have been fighting a war to take over more than what's theirs for far longer than any can remember, and they've been in another country's/state's land wandering around homeless until the 20th century.

This is not about religion, or religious ideologies, it's about politics, and empire building. The Israeli's have had control of that land for far longer than any one civilization, it's part of their territory, they were forced to give it up by the UN, who really have no true authority to give an other's real estate away. The Palestinian government, and by that governance, the people, have been aggressors against the government and people who, historically, have controlled that territory longer than anyone else in history.

Who's right? Who's wrong? I don't know, but history is quite an eye opener.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

If this discussion is going to descend in to 'Hamas as terrorists' then we should recognise the use of the word 'terrorism' as an adjective used to vilify one side and make an opposing side seem legitimate.

True enough. And it's not just "terrorism" that gets used this way. It's a common ploy in any propaganda.

Taken at face value, though, it means "pursuing your goals by means of inflicting terror", as in do horrible things to scare people into doing your will or at least acquiescing to your doings. Question then is, does hamas do that?

From this very safe very long distance I say, no. The rockets aren't effective at killing people and by now everybody knows this. So it's not about the terror (any longer). What they're instead trying to do is to provoke Israel into reacting, then they sacrifice their own by using them as human shields, generating a death toll that then gets used to stir up an "Israel is killing us!" frenzy. And it's working pretty well.

It is cynically, callously using lives to try and secure political gains, but not really terrorism.

"The moment Hamas stops shooting, IDF stops shooting, period." - well that's great. But you realise Hamas are firing because they live in an occupation and under siege?

They're firing because they're pursuing the goal of total annihilation of Israel. The occupation and under siege parts are fairly hard to make stick unless you squint really hard and wilfully ignore both hamas' own actions and the parts where Israel gave up plenty occupied territory complete with infrastructure for their mortal enemies to live and thrive in. You can make the case that when two are fighting two have some guilt, but that is not this argument. This is pure one-sided entirely self-serving rationalisation. It's popular enough in the Arab world, but still one-sided.

Don't call them Hamas terrorists for pursuing what they're entitled to and have been brutally denied even when seeking it peacefully.

Are they? Have they? I think they've been given more than their fair share and thrown much of it away with the explicit goal of trying to exterminate Israel. I also think that hamas isn't nearly as entitled as it thinks it is. Again, this is propaganda. Don't believe me? Well, you've been busily pointing at previous doings, so let me add one 1977 interview. Since you know your history so well, you know exactly what I'm talking about and also why your claims to entitlement are that much bunk.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you a troll or are you really that nutty? Israel would be crushed by the USA. I'm not from either country but can tell which is militarily more powerful.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

Or you could actually take the two seconds to look up his channel and see this is the kind of shit Israel is actually feeding their citizens. But whatever, keep acting like a snarky twat online.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.popularresistance.org/chomsky-israels-west-bank-plans-leave-palestinians-very-little/

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

If this discussion is going to descend in to 'Hamas as terrorists' then we should recognise the use of the word 'terrorism' as an adjective used to vilify one side and make an opposing side seem legitimate.

Except that it isn't just Israel identifying them as such. I believe United States and Egypt strongly agree.

I donâ(TM)t support Hamasâ(TM) use of violence to further their desire for a sovereign state

Hamas certainly doesn't want "their own state". Palestinians located in Gaza do, but Hamas most certainly doesn't care - they are more interested in destruction of Israel and would be more than willing to sacrifice every innocent civilian in Gaza.

They'll stop fighting when Israel pursues a 2-state strategy with sincerity.

Hamas is unwilling (and never have) to recognize Israel's right to exist. I would think that would be a prerequisite for negotiation. You know, where the other side allows for the possibility of your existence?

Don't call them Hamas terrorists for pursuing what they're entitled to and have been brutally denied even when seeking it peacefully.

Palestinians are not Hamas terrorists. Hamas, however, is a terrorist organization, that had done terrorist acts to Egypt too. Have you ever wondered why why demand that Egypt open up their borders? Why do you think the Gaza-Egypt border is just as closed as the Gaza-Israeli one? Muslim on Muslim hate?

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously? Two state solution? Refresh my memory - who is it who has *rejected* a 2-state solution repeatedly? Because I'm pretty sure it wasn't Israel.

Palestinians rejected 2-state proposals in 1937 and 1947 which were *accepted* by the Jewish leadership. Why? Because the Arabs were too busy shouting that Israel had no right to exist. Then the Arab-Israeli war (1948) and the Six day war (1967), as well as a constant stream of attacks and sabotage by Palestinian militants convinced Israel that the Arabs had no real interest in negotiations or peace - in fact, Hamas' charter specifically names their objective:

'[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility.' (Article 13)

'The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him.' (Article 7)

In more recent years, Israel has stated its willingness to give up nearly the entirety of the lands they gained in 1967 in exchange for peaceful coexistence, but even that isn't good enough - the rockets keep falling, and the bombs keep exploding.

But yeah, given Israel's history - of both being willing to accept a 2-state solution, and defending themselves against attacks by organizations hell-bent on their destruction, I can see how you'd conclude that Israel is the one who is dead-set on not accepting a 2-state solution.

But please, bring up settlements now. Let's talk about the settlements that Israel evacuated in the Sinai and Gaza when it withdrew from those territories. Do you really think if they actually felt the Palestinian leaders were *serious* about recognizing Israel and living peacefully alongside them, that the Israeli government would - for a single second - hesitate to evacuate the other settlements as well?

Re: Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

Egypt is blockading Gaza as strongly as Israel. Why is Hamas unequal in sharing their love?

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

[quote]note: during this period Hamas had not killed or kidnapped a single Israeli civilian[/quote]
Hint: If there are no casualties that doesn't mean they haven't tried to.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

Please do come, we will be waiting for your pathetic army that can't even win from kids with stones or fend off some DIY fireworks. Idiotic and uncivilised bunch of assholes sums it up pretty much! You might be able to put a dent in the exhausted and oppressed Gaza population but don't event think for a second your army means anything significant outside your so-called country.

Re: Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh... So the three dead teenagers had nothing to do with it?

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

Nazi faggots from Israel will be destroyed like Nazi faggots from anywhere else. You fucked up.

Re: Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

Bullshit. It was created by the UN in 1948 following the Balfour declaration in 1917. CIA was formed at the end of 1947.

The pro-Hamas trolls and ignorant doofuses are flooding the interwebz again. Propaganda at its finest.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

What do you mean "if"? It is being accomplished right now. Obama and the rest of the world's leaders support us. I do not care about the opinions of the maggots of goyim countries like you.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

Please. We could bring our army from West Bank to the US West Coast and Obama would still be forced to make excuses for us. Aren't you paying attention? The Jews have won their war against the anti-semitism of the world.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[duke_cheetah2003]

Why is it our media (even this post) always seems to portray Hamas in a positive light?

Wait a minute. Where is this summary even remotely pro-anything but technology? It's simply outlining the high tech that's being employed in this conflict, it by no means draws any conclusions of that conflict.

I personally feel the post is in just the right context for a /. article, its about technology, not about who's using it (though there's talk of who's supplied whom, but still fails to cast a good or bad tilt on it.)

Re: Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

Absolute bullshit. Hamas was founded in 1987 and is relentlessly attacking Israel ever since. There were no blockages back than. The blockages were created BECAUSE of Hamas's attacks. Not the other way round. Inform yourself.

The ignorance of deluded pro-Hamas people is astounding.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

And don't you think for a second that you are actually in charge of your own country. We tell your president what to say, do and what to order your military to do. Besides, your country is bankrupt and will soon crumble.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Yew2]

terror is a tactic, not an ism dude. never judge a man till you walk a kilometer in his shoes.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

Blockading terrorists is necessary, and attempting to justify their barbaric, mindless brutality reveals your antisemitic ignorance.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Nostalgia4Infinity]

If the rest of the world "got out of it" and Israel had no scruples it could be over tomorrow.

Re: Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

Bullshit it was recognised by the USA counter to advice from just about everyone else as the President wanted the Jewish vote. Given that everyone else in the developed world was shattered after WW2 though no one could do anything about it.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

Enjoy the nukes. You earned what you get.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought the UK & USA had quite a lot to do with winning WW2. I must have missed the huge fleets Israel had.

Re: Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

Absolute bullshit. Hamas was founded in 1987 and is relentlessly attacking Israel ever since. There were no blockages back than. The blockages were created BECAUSE of Hamas's attacks. Not the other way round. Inform yourself.

The ignorance of deluded pro-Hamas people is astounding.

Then why where they blockading the Fatah areas as well?

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

Look up the Stern gang sometime. Or doesn't anti British terrorism count?
A quick FYI: antizionism is not the same as antisemitism

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

What you say is irrelevant.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-13331522

Quote : "Hamas is designated a terrorist organisation by Israel, the US, EU, Canada and Japan due to its long record of attacks and its refusal to renounce violence. Under the group's charter, Hamas is committed to the destruction of Israel."

"The rockets aren't effective at killing people "

Irrelevant. They do kill people and constant daily alerts do disrupt normal life.

Re: Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

You seriously don't know what you are talking about.

While the US were the first to recognise Israel, other countries followed suit immediately afterwards. The second recognition cam from Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi's Iran (!!!), followed by Guatemala, Iceland, Nicaragua, Romania, and Uruguay. The Soviet Union was the first nation to fully recognize Israel de jure on 17 May 1948, followed by Poland, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Ireland, and South Africa.

STFU & GTFO. You idiocy is showing.

Re: Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

You obviously missed the part where I hinted at the USA throwing its weight around. This lead later to the Suez crisis. You really are a clueless fuck so why don't you STFU & GTFO?

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[flyingsquid]

Terrorism refers to a specific tactic, the deliberate targeting of civilians to create fear and terror in the population rather than for a specific military objective such as the destruction of industry. If Hamas is launching rockets indiscriminately at Israeli civilians, then they are engaging in terrorism, pure and simple. Israel does not have a policy of deliberately targeting civilians, although some days it's pretty hard to tell that from the news. The irony is that while Israel might not be engaging in terrorism as a matter of policy, their military activity does far more to terrorize the civilian population and results in far more civilian deaths that Hamas. So I guess that raises a question- from a moral standpoint, which is worse? Deliberately targeting civilians but not being that good at hitting them? Or deliberately avoiding civilians, but not being that good at missing them?

Re: Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

You should ask that the Al-Aqsa Intifada. The only blockage of the West Bank is by a border wall. Reducing terrorism by >90%.
Just like with any closed (aka normal) border there are regulated transit checkpoints. Nothing unnormal.

But maybe the US is blockading Mexico by building a wall in Texas?

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is Israel put in a positive light? those bastards stole palestine's land with the imperialistic support of US and UK and now they are carrying out the genocide of it's people. Please stop spreading lies

Re: Hamas are Terrorists

[sumdumass]

Seems to me that you are a little lopsided there.

Four teens werr kidnapped and murdered in two separate instances. First was three israeli teens then a palistimian teen. It was after the pslistimian teen was murdered that Hamas started lobbing rockets at Israel.

So either you are ignoring the facts or you are some how construing the second murder as the official state responce from Israel. In either case, you got your facts wrong.

Re: Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

Bullshit. Hamas is firing rockets at Israel since several YEARS. Until now 12000 rockets. You got your facts wrong.

Re: Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

You such a deluded braindead idiot. It's not even funny anymore. The Suez crisis was in 1956. It was the SECOND Israeli-Arab war. Not the first. It had NOTHING to do with the founding and recognition of Israel.

Serioulsy dud. Shut. The. Fuck. Up.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[damienl451]

Of course, it depends on what you mean by 'recognize Israel's right to exist". If it means that the Palestinians are supposed to say that it's fine for the Israelis to keep their own separate state while they're confined to their little Bantustans, then it's no wonder that they're not so keen on doing this. The two-state solution is literally apartheid since it involves separating the inhabitants of Palestine based on their ethnicity/religion and letting them develop separately.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

No one should own that piece of dirt. It should be made uninhabitable, preferably by storing/dumping the world's nuclear waste precisely there. That would end the conflict. These two people have clearly demonstrated that they can't live in peace. They can't even try to work it out without destroying for the other side. BOTH are equally bad. Condemn them from ever setting their foot there again and make it impossible to actually live there. Sorry, but they can emigrate to other countries. They have had their chance and they didn't take it.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Attila Dimedici]

They'll stop fighting when Israel pursues a 2-state strategy with sincerity.

Can you provide ANY evidence for this assertion? As evidence that you are wrong I enter this phrase from the Hamas charter: "...initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion[.]” There is more that suggests you are mistaken, do you have any evidence to support what you claim?

Re: Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, and the USA & the UK ended up on different sides partly due to the recognition by the USA of Israel
Seriously you Shut. The. Fuck. Up

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

There are other groups that support a Palestinian state that aren't crazed religious fanatics. Don't pretend that you have to support Hamas to support the Palestinian plight.

Re: Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't agree with that wall either

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't sympathize with the psycho you're replying to, but you do realize that the Israeli army is fully capable of reducing Gaza to ash, right? They are showing /restraint/ by causing as few casualties as they are.

Re: Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck hamas, they know that firing the rockets from civilian areas will cause civilian casualties and accomplish nothing strategically for a military move. Cowards firing rockets behind woman/children knowing full well that Israel will retaliate against those launch positions. That's some cold shit hamas is doing.
Anyways its Israels land and they won more of it when the moron countries around them decided to invade, to the victor goes the spoils. wah wah wah.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

To the victors go the spoilts. Quit your whining.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Sun]

I live in Israel, in an area which is inside the "green line" (i.e. - it was Israel since 1948). All around the town I live in are Arab cities, all of them also inside the green line, all of their inhabitants Israeli citizens with equal rights to me (though some missing obligations). If a two state solution is scheduled to go through (and unless "areas exchange" change that), all of those currently Israeli citizens are scheduled to remain so.

I suggest you get your facts straight when claiming separation on ethnicity. I am literally[1] holding my breath waiting for your apology for wrongly using "apartheid".

As for the area being small: I'm anxiously waiting to hear your proposed solution. I'm sure it is going to be enlightened, grounded on facts and peaceful.

Shachar

1 - Obviously, I'm not literally holding my breath. Since, however, I don't expect you to apologies either, the two parts of the sentence are equally true.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

The Jews have won their war against the anti-semitism of the world.

How unfortunate. How will some Jews justify being complete arseholes now?

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[AmiMoJo]

Israel has said it will only stop once it has destroyed all the tunnels that the Palestinians built. That implies that even if they surrendered immediately Israel would continue to keep soldiers on the ground there until the demolition work was complete.

I also somehow doubt that Israel would lift the blockade on the area, dismantle their wall, demolish their settlements and then allow the Palestinians to live freely and prosper. The current round of fighting might end for a while but the conflict would certainly not be resolved.

Re: Hamas are Terrorists

[mpe]

That Israel has been manipulating public opinion through its control of the media is obvious at this stage.

Zionist propaganda has probably been influencing the media for at least a century. It, no doubt, played it's part in the creation of Israel in 1948.

Look how far from the discussion is the fact that this whole conflict started with an escalation over the murdered teenagers. Murders that, to this day, have not been investigated.

There dosn't appear to be any obvious connection between these murders and Gaza either.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Sun]

Rockets fired since 2001. Blockade started in 2007.

What I wonder is, if the Palestinian have a time machine (which is the only explanation to this, as well as many other, rationalization of their actions), how come they are not rich enough to buy the allegedly pro-Israeli media?

Shachar

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[damienl451]

Two-state solution = apartheid. Would the ANC have accepted a two-state solution in South Africa, which would only have vindicated the racist ideology of white South Africans who claimed that blacks and whites had to be separate? That's something that pro-Israel people never understand. Whenever someone says 'apartheid', they'll talk to you about the Arab minority in Israel, which completely misses the point. Apartheid, in this case, refers to the fact that, in the area that is historically known as Palestine, there is apartheid in that the goal is to have a Jewish state and a Palestinian state even though both groups believe that they have claims over the entire land.

This is why it's very different from many other conflicts: in Ukraine, for instance, you could potentially partition the land since you have a rather clear line dividing east and west over language and political views. Same in (South) Sudan for instance where you could separate majority Muslim populations from majority Christian ones. Not so much in Palestine, at least if you go back to 1946 before there were large population transfers.

If you look at population statistics from that era, you find that Palestinians outnumbered Jews virtually everywhere. If you had had a free and fair referendum and assuming that people would have voted along ethnic lines (why would Jews vote against having their own state, why would Palestinians decide that they wanted to be ruled by Jews), the Jewish state would have been the Jaffa region, period. And that's a huge problem. The right to self-determination is not only for white people, even though it took Western countries close to 20 years to finally realize that. The Jewish people certainly had the right to go to Palestine, purchase land following willing-buyer-willing-seller principles and perhaps one day become a majority there. I believe in open borders, so I have no problem with that. What I do have a problem with is when people claim that the fact that their ancestors may or may not have been forced to leave that area 2000 years ago means that they now have a right to exclude people who are currently living there. We all have roots somewhere in modern-day Kenya, that doesn't mean it's now okay for me to go and colonize that place. There's been invasions, etc. for thousands of years everywhere on earth and we don't go back 2000 or 3000 years to see who *really* has a claim on the land.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Ash Vince]

Is it Hamas, because the 'evil Jew' refuses to make peace? And because they were there before the Jews came? Is it the 'evil Jews", because they were there before the Ottoman Empire practically kicked them out if they didn't want to convert to Islam? At least here we know that Judaism existed first.

Just like the native american indians existed first in the US before they were fucked over by the european settlers who now rule the country and own all the land? if every country had to go back to the borders it had last time the Jewish people were actually in the promised land then the world would be very different. That is never going to happen though, and most people would not want it to.

The two state solution involves pretty much drawing the borders where they are now with the exception of Jerusalem. Jerusalem is sacred ground to Christianity, Islam and Judaism so the only fair option is that it is ruled by no single religion and is shared by all as the cradle of all religions. This is simply the only fair option.

Sure, there are extremists on the arab side who would like to drive into the sea, they have to realise that simply will not happen. There are also people within Israel though who view the promised land, as handed down to the Jews by god as sacred and that includes all the land between the Nile and the Euphrates rivers, these people also have to realise that driving that many Arabs from their current homes is also out of the question. Once all parties back away from these extremes only then will there be peace.

Re: Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah that's why Israel was founded under british protectorate?? Because brits where against it?

Boy, you are less intelligent than a cockroach.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

That area has been inhabited by Jews for centuries. It's isn't an only arab area as you might imagine.
In addition in modern Israel 20% of the citizens are muslim arabs with the same rights as everyone.

It's the opposite of apartheid.
Calling a 2 state solution apartheid would be like calling California & Texas apartheid 'cause it isn't united with Mexico. (Whose areas once belonged to Mexico)

PS : The word Palestine that you mean is a modern invention. The ancient Palestine is something completely different.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[TheP4st]

And it doesn't help Israel in the least when the pro-Israelis repeatedly lie their asses off.

Above AC should be modded as informative as it highlights the social media aspect mentioned in the summary.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

What you say is irrelevant.

I beg to differ.

Quote : "Hamas is designated a terrorist organisation by Israel, the US, EU, Canada and Japan due to its long record of attacks and its refusal to renounce violence.

That isn't the smartest counter to ggp's complaint that hamas is getting called terrorist to villify it. In fact, it's grist for their propaganda mill, for obviously it must be the Rich Jewish Lobby behind it, and so on, and so forth. It helps them play the poor downtrodden underdog at least in the eyes of their audience, being the rest of the Arab world. Since propaganda is a game of bending others' perception to your will, this helps them as least as much as hinders them.

Under the group's charter, Hamas is committed to the destruction of Israel."

I don't think gp glossed over that.

"The rockets aren't effective at killing people "

Irrelevant. They do kill people and constant daily alerts do disrupt normal life.

The point was the rockets aren't effective at instilling fear. By extension, terrorism isn't effective if the targets refuse to be terrorised. That makes this rocket-sending ploy ineffective as terrorism. This quite regardless of how much damage they otherwise do. Since the perpetrators continue with the ploy despite their limitet resources, the goal must be different. And lo and behold, it is. In fact, seeing the "pro-palestina anti-zionism" protests staged elsewhere, it's doing quite well furthering hamas' cause.

You can shout "irrelevant" all you want but that doesn't change the observed reality and it certainly doesn't sway my opinion about this analysis. That remains entirely unaffected by your rather poor attempt at a counter.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[bigfoottoo]

George Friedman of Stratfor has an excellent analysis of the situation. His opening statement is, "We have long argued that the Arab-Israeli conflict is inherently insoluble." Definitely worth a read.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[rasmusbr]

Why is it our media (even this post) always seems to portray Hamas in a positive light?

This conflict would end the SECOND Hamas stopped their aggression. The moment Hamas stops shooting, IDF stops shooting, period. Hamas lies and has no moral honor, they betray everything, and want nothing less than to wipe other people off the face of the earth. How is that humanitarian and moral? And yet the western media doesn't portray that side of the story!

Your naivete would be cute if it wasn't for all the dead children!

Israel will not stop when Hamas stops firing rockets. I suspect Israel will stop the slaughter the moment when the Palestinians cede ownership of their natural gas fields to Israel for free. http://www.globalresearch.ca/w...

Also, how do you know these things about Hamas if the medias doesn't cover it? Of course the media covers Hamas's acts of terror. The part that is lacking is the fact that vast majority of Hamas's terror is aimed at Palestinians who belong to rival factions or who don't pay their protection dues on time.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

Just like the native american indians existed first in the US before they were fucked over by the european settlers who now rule the country and own all the land?

Except that Americans with Native American ancestry are US citizens, and have the same rights and privileges as any other citizen. Injustices were done in the past, but they are not continuing today.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[AK Marc]

There was "conflict" before humans existed. You'll have to be more specific.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[AK Marc]

if every country had to go back to the borders it had last time the Jewish people were actually in the promised land then the world would be very different. That is never going to happen though, and most people would not want it to.

So, because they were successfully exterminated long enough ago, they lose all rights?

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[AK Marc]

Two-state solution = apartheid.

So the USA and Canada are in apartheid? It's a two-state solution, by treaty, after wars and skirmishes.

Same as the US and Mexico.

The two-state solutions I've seen were more like India/Pakistan. And not ideal, it was better than the one-state solution (so say the historians).

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

Two-state solution = apartheid.

Take it up with jaredm1 - he's the one who suggested that the Palestinians "deserve" a two state solution, but that evil Israel keeps oppressing them.

If you look at population statistics from that era, you find that Palestinians outnumbered Jews virtually everywhere.

And if you look back hundreds of years, Jews were a majority in Palestine long before Islam even existed. So if you wanna go back in history to determine who has the oldest a claim to the land, well... Israel wins.

There's been invasions, etc. for thousands of years everywhere on earth and we don't go back 2000 or 3000 years to see who *really* has a claim on the land.

Ah I see, so we're only allowed to go back to 1946, for every property dispute. That's good - Native Americans in the US can stop bitching now. So can descendants of African slaves! I can't wait for you to tell them.

the Jewish state would have been the Jaffa region, period. And that's a huge problem.

Why would that have been a "huge problem"? Oh right, because the Arabs fundamentally reject the right of a Jewish state to exist, period. The Arabs, who have repeatedly attacked (and reiterated their promises to exterminate) the Jews. Because they're just peace-loving democrats who would have respected the Jews' right to self-determination, just like they did in 1937, and 1947, and 1948, and 1967, and pretty much every year since the founding of the PLO, Hamas, and other organizations bent on the destruction of Israel.

Yes, it would've been a huge problem, because the Israelis will never be able to live peacefully with their neighbors, because their neighbors reject their right to exist, let alone engage in self-determination of ANY sort. You suggest that you really want democracy in Palestine, but be honest - what you're truly advocating is for the Jews to be completely exterminated - when 2 million wolves and 50,000 lambs take a vote on what to eat for dinner, it's kind of hard to imagine any outcome that doesn't require mint jelly as a garnish.

Re: Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

If the soldiers of mexican cartels started having shootouts with each other and police forces on your property, with you and your family in the crossfire, or decided to make a point about how your property should belong to the sovereign state of Mexico by suicide bombing your neighborhood - maybe you'd change your tune and "agree with that wall" too.

What's it like being SO sheltered that you can't conceive of anything more distressing than missing an episode of Game of Thrones because your mom doesn't pick you up from your oboe lessons on time?

Re: Hamas are Terrorists

[sumdumass]

Stop being a retarded idiot. We are talking specifically about this latest incident.

Go troll somewhere else

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[WaffleMonster]

Why is it our media (even this post) always seems to portray Hamas in a positive light?

Coverage I've seen usually consists of an interview with an Israeli followed by the same interview with a Palestinian ... both questioned, both spew the very same tired talking points day in and day out which Interviewer is mostly disinclined to follow up on even in instances where they know or should know information provided is misleading or false.

This conflict would end the SECOND Hamas stopped their aggression.

I assume Palestinians say conflict would end the second Israeli's stop making their lives miserable.

So what's the problem? Seems easy enough to give both sides what they want...

Unless true motives are couched in fundamentally indefensible geopolitical calculations....but ... but this could... never.. I mean.... how many of you really deep down in your hearts believed the US went to war with Iraq because of fears of terrorists and Mushroom clouds? This is what leaders continuously do throughout recorded history. They spout bullshit for public consumption... and sadly people regurgitate it as if rooting for a sporting event.

Hamas lies and has no moral honor, they betray everything, and want nothing less than to wipe other people off the face of the earth.

When old Ben comes on US television waving his arm asserting there is no blockade when questioned it would seem to me Hamas is not the only liar.

How is that humanitarian and moral? And yet the western media doesn't portray that side of the story!

More people are routinely killed in a single hour of Israeli strikes than over a decade and a half of rocket bombardments from Gaza. You tell me.

Both sides are a bunch of immoral inhuman assholes if you want my opinion. Why doesn't the western media portray that side of the story!

Re: Hamas are Terrorists

[goarilla]

You can't expect them to collaborate with their 'enemy'
The only thing they can do is guerilla warfare or agree to the occupation.
If they didn't have the support from the palestinian public eg: if Israel was actually civil
with these people instead of raiding them en masse and 'interrogating' their children then Hamas
wouldn't exist as it is now anyway. Punishing everybody for the crimes of a few is wrong policy.

Threat the people like people, work your informants
and send special ops to the actual terrorists, that's how you get them.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[goarilla]

Yes these are just 'born' troublemakers: Bohemians and barbarians. It's not like men have fought each other for resources before.

Re: Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

Absolutely this.

Let's focus on the clever sensors in tunnels whilst ignoring the oddly fallible technology of one of the most advanced armies in the world whose bombs and soldiers can't distinguish between terrorists and kids in a god damn schools.

You know who certainly is not using technology, the 250+ kids murdered in the last 26 days. Most of whom have been imprisoned in a large open air prison for the entirety of their short lives (by people who hate them but graciously allow them the minimal amount of food, water and medical attention).

Screw all those who kill kids and screw any attempt to rationalize such killings as being as a response to mere threats or due to the other side. It's simple, if you fire the weapon that kills civilians / kid(s) it is you that is the murdering bastard who hopefully will rot in hell/prison for warcrimes.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

Because look back at your history , the Romans smashed you completely. The rest of us 'goyim countries' if given a strong enough reason could (though I doubt i would ever happen) certainly do it again and possibly without even firing a shot.

Re: Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

Everything you wrote is entirely your opinion and your opinion only. Not only just an opinion it's an opinion not backed up by anything else than more opinions of yours. In a nutshell your drivel is worthless shit and does no counter anything I wrote.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

First off, Israel had to chase away as many nonjews as possible and deny their return before they could safely allow non-Jews to vote in the Jewish State. Still, for the last nearly fifty years, most of the non-jews living under israeli rule haven't been able to vote, half of them are refugees from the ethnic cleansing that created Israell. Millions of people languish under Israel's bootheel and they don't get to vote for the government that actually rules their lives. Meanwhile, Israel is constructing massive colonies on land that doesn't belong to it for the exclusive use of Jews. There are even roads going right through the Palestinians land connecting the colonies with Israel and each other that the Palestinians are forbidden to use. Palestinians get rounded up by troops and prosecuted in military courts while justice in the colonies is dispensed by police and Israeli courts. Separate towns, separate roads. separate justice: it's not apartheid it's hafrada! Of course, the apartheid is only temporary because the goal is to cleanse the area as much as possible so it can all be incorporated into Israel without any "demographic threat."

Re: Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah. Now we are ignoring everything that happened before to narrow down a very narrow narrative? Wow.

Oh look. Just.....right now... Hamas did not attack Israel. Hey they must be the good guys. Wow.

And you have the guts to tell me I am the retarded troll???? You must be insane.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

"At least here we know that Judaism existed first."

According to Judaism, when the they finished their 20 year walk out of Egypt that should have taken 2 days, they fought and killed all of the existing native tribes to take over their 'Promised Land'.

Re: Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

The only one spreading lies is you. There is neither a genocide nor did Israel stole land. The end.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

What right? Should a modern day Catawaba Indian go displace my parents out of the home they bought and paid for, because 400 or 2000 or 6000 years ago, some Shaman said that land was granted to them by the Great Spirit?

Israel has no more right to move everyone non-israeli out of Gaza and the West Bank, than the Arab states do to drive Israel into the sea.

Both mindsets of historical 'Right' to land is wrong.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

Or I grew up in a region \ country (Belfast northern Ireland) that went through something similar on a smaller scale and realised I didn't believe the BS that came from both sides particularly when myth becomes 'fact'.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Sarius64]

and the Jews certain lived in that area before a single "Palestinian" ever existed.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

Germany had been inhabited by Aryans for centuries, what was your point?

You make perfect sense if you ignore refugees and Israel's activities in Jerusalem, Gaza, the West Bank, Lebanon, Syria, etc...

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Sarius64]

I agree. Fundamentally, we should get out of Israel's way and let the middle-east situation play out. Russia and China could give all Arab countries weapons for free and they would still lose to the skill of Israel's military. Anyone that thinks Israel will fall to any Arab nation is delusional.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[avgapon]

Please don't talk about Ukraine if you don't really know anything about it and its history.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[oldCoder]

1. We don't have a good definition of "Terrorism" that is shared among us all, so the term becomes kicked around and abused. So I've stopped using it. By the way, the Hebrew word for terrorism does not involve the concept of terror or fear.

2. The governments involved, including the PA, have come to believe in a "Two State Solution", but Hamas does not. And Hamas is in a position to threaten the success of any 2-state plan, by taking over the West Bank, and starting another war with Israel. I believe this is the reason that Hamas is being destroyed. I think this is why the PA and several Arab states are very muted in their criticism of Israel during this war: Hamas is their enemy too.

   If Israel does not destroy Hamas this time around, then my theory is probably wrong.

3. Hamas never sought anything peacefully. The PA has engaged in diplomacy, but Hamas, not. The rest of your narrative is one-sided, propagandistic and tendentious, too.

Re: Hamas are Terrorists

[sumdumass]

Ah. Now we are ignoring everything that happened before to narrow down a very narrow narrative? Wow.

There is no wow about it. Specific things were said about specific incidents or events. Just because other things have happened does not preclude anyone from talking about a specific set of things.

Oh look. Just.....right now... Hamas did not attack Israel. Hey they must be the good guys. Wow.

Like I said, stop being a retarded idiot.

And you have the guts to tell me I am the retarded troll???? You must be insane.

No, I called you a retarded idiot and told you to troll somewhere else. You see, words have meanings and they are used to communicate things called thoughts. You would do yourself a favor and learn the meaning of the words you are reading so people wouldn't think you are a retarded idiot trying to troll a discussion.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[mtthwbrnd]

"This conflict would end the SECOND Hamas stopped their aggression. "

No, it would not.

This conflict began in the late 1800's when the Jews decided to create "home-land for the Jewish people", which meant to create a racist state which was for Jews only, on a land that was already populated and whose population had *never* at any time contained more than 8% Jew. In order to make lebensraum for the racist Jew only state, the Jews committed acts of terror which resulted in the native population of non-Jews be pushed out as refugees into Gaza, West Bank and surrounding Arab states.

That is the cause of the problem. The Arabs did not create the "conflict". The Jews did. Hamas does not "attack" Israel. Israel attacked the Arabs and Hamas is their legitimate and legally allowed resistance to the occupation of their lands - yes, that includes Tel Aviv and all of what you would call "Israel".

Hamas represents the refugees who do have the right to use violence in order to regain control of their territory from which they have been illegally expelled and which the Jews have annexed, which is an illegal action. This conflict will end when the Jews agree to allow the refugees to return to live in the land as equals under the law. That is the only condition under which Hamas or any other militant resistance organisation should ever agree to a ceasefire.

The Israelis can NEVER claim self-defence. Ever. Period. They only option they have as a "self-defence", is to obey the law and allow the refugees to return to live as equals under the law on the land.

How dare you suggest that the western media, which is controlled by Jewish people who support Israel, somehow side with Hamas! You are clearly a hasbara troll. This entire article is trying to give the impression that Hamas have "high-technology" at their disposal. Utter nonsense. A Hamas rocket barely makes an impact when it lands. It has no guidance system and no explosive warhead. The Israeli missiles are guided missiles of the highest technology and carry huge explosive payloads that can kill everyone within a 100 metre radius. It is extremely disingenuous to compare the number of Hamas rockets fired with the number of Israel rockets fired. It is like comparing the number of punches landed in a fight between a two year old girl and Mike Tyson in his prime.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[mtthwbrnd]

"That area has been inhabited by Jews for centuries" - the population of Jews was less than 8%. Sure there were some Jews there, but only 8%. The Jews decided in 1897 to create a Jew only state on a land that contained only 8% Jews. That is the entire cause of the "conflict". Here are the numbers from a Jewish, pro-Israel website:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrar...

"In addition in modern Israel 20% of the citizens are muslim arabs with the same rights as everyone."
Those Arabs are the descendants of Arabs who were already living on the land before 1948. The Jews tried to get rid of them, many fled in terror but unfortunately for the Jews, some of them did not. If Muslim Arabs are so welcome in Israel, then please tell us how many Muslim Arabs immigrated to Israel and became full Israeli citizens last year compared to Jews? How about over the last 10 years?

"PS : The word Palestine that you mean is a modern invention. The ancient Palestine is something completely different."
Spare us your crappy word plays. The word Palestinian has come to mean: "A non-Jewish person who has the right to live in the land which in modern days is called Palestine/Israel". Just like the word Anti-Semite in modern times has come to mean a person (like me) who dislikes Jews - their beliefs, their culture and their behaviour even though the word "Semite" does not mean "Jew".

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[mtthwbrnd]

What you write is complete and utter bullshit and you clearly know nothing factual about the history of the region. The fact is that there was never more than 8% Jew in the land we call Palestine/Israel today, until the Jews decided to create a racist Jew only state in that land in the late 1800's. All of the troubles stem from this. Trying to create a Jew only state on land that was inhabited by fewer than 8% Jews.

Don't believe it? Well tell it to your Jewish friends - they might need to change history to suit your ridiculous viewpoint!
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrar...

"Who's right? Who's wrong? I don't know, but history is quite an eye opener." It is easy to answer this question! The Jews are wrong and Hamas is right. Hamas has the right to resist the occupation and annexation of their land, and their exclusion from living on it as equals under the law, using violence. That is their right. Israel does not have the right to claim self-defence when it acts to defend the existence of Israel wherever Israel is defined as a Jew only state built on the land of the refugees to whom it refuses the right to return to live as equals under the law on the land. When Israel accepts the right of return of the refugees to live in the land as equals under the law, then Israel can claim that it is a legitimate state and has the right the defend itself.

Look, you are obviously a bit doughy, so here is a simple analogy for your tiny brain to process: I break into your house and start raping your wife. You try to defend her by attacking me with your puny body. I turn around and snap your head off of your body. The police come to arrest me. I tell them that I was acting in self-defence - because you attacked me. The "Community", which consists of people under my control and in my pay, agree with me and I am accordingly rewarded for heroically managing to defend myself against your attack by being allowed into your 18 year old daughters bedroom for some more "fun"! That is the best analogy of the Israel/Palestine conflict which has ever been written.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[mtthwbrnd]

"I'm anxiously waiting to hear your proposed solution."

The solution is easy. Allow the return of the refugees and their descendants to live as equals under the law on the land.

The reason you won't agree to this is because Israel is a racist Jew only State and you don't want more non-Jews to be there because it would by definition signify the end of the Zionist enterprise. Hasbaras will likely come back and claim that Israel is a multicultural nation and has many Muslim Arabs.

I will ask them a question right now:

How many Muslim Arabs who were not born in Israel/Palestine immigrated into Israel and were granted full Israeli Citizenship with equal rights, Israeli passports etc.., last year? What about over the past 10 years?

How many non-Jewish Africans, Chinese and Indians were granted full Israeli Citizenship with equal rights, Israeli passports etc.., last year? What about over the past 10 years? What official Israeli government programs exist to encourage the immigration of qualified non Jewish Indians, Chinese and Africans into Israel on a pathway to eventually become full Israeli citizens, to raise their children as full Israeli citizens and access its health care and education etc...? The answer, as you know is close to, if not completely equal to, ZERO. So let's not pretend that Israel is not a racist Jew only state.

Now you will want to claim that Jews are not a race and therefore Israel cannot be a racist state. You know, I suspect, that that argument is utter bullshit and is based on the semantics of the word "race" which has been altered over time and are aware that there are many references to "Jewish Race" throughout the literature, not to mention the many Jewish studies on DNA which try to prove that there is such a thing as Jewish DNA (aka race). You know that there are many people who are defined by Israel to be Jewish even though they are Atheists, showing that Jewishness has nothing to do with religious belief - their Jewishness being defined by having been born to Jewish parents (aka DNA aka race). So let's not play that game.

If you want peace then give the refugees the right to return to live in the land as equals under the law as full citizens and don't define the state as the Jewish State. If you want an escalating war which is leaving the Jewish People looking increasingly bad, globally, then continue to murder children with your US supplied WMD's. It is your choice as a Jew really. You are making a bed, and soon you might have to lay in it.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

...waiting for your apology for wrongly using "apartheid".

In Lord of the Rings, the Ents (talking trees) get asked which side they're on and they say they're not entirely on anyone's side because no one is entirely on their side. I tend to feel that way with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

I'm a big believer in individual freedom and so I'm opposed to discrimination and segregation. I'd like to live in a world where some guy from Japan would be free to go live in the Middle East and eat palak paneer while wearing a sombrero and listing to a Beethoven symphony - a world where people aren't pressured to do things the same way as their ancestors or do things the same way people who lived in that part of the world long ago - where people are free to live their own lives wherever they want in the world and to create their own new and blended cultures.

And what interests me is that you imply that you also think that apartheid was a bad thing. But do you also want to live in a world completely free of segregation and discrimination? Or do you prefer a middle ground where there is some degree of discrimination and segregation - perhaps that Israel should remain predominently Jewish and that "right of return" to Israel should only apply to people who are Jewish?

Re: Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks for admitting that you have no intelligent rebuttal to his argument.

Re: Hamas are Terrorists

[murdocj]

Genocide? Really? When Hamas stores and fires missiles from civilian centers, what is Israel supposed to do? Politely ask Hamas to step away from their human shields.

I don't know who said this but it sums the situation up quite clearly: "Israel uses missiles to protect its civilians. Hamas uses civilians to protect its missiles".

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

They're not that stupid. They fully realize that if they were to steamroll the Palestinians, it would be greatly frowned upon globally. If a bigger enemy comes their way at some point, they'd have no support whatsoever.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[AK Marc]

So I can move into your house while you are at work. You "historical" claim to that land is invalid, as I got there since then.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

If we let history be our guide, Israel doesn't exist. In the here and now, the Israelis are murdering thugs. Netanyahu and his cronies should be tried at the Hague.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Sun]

You would like to live in a world where "nation state" is a dead concept. Regardless of whether I think this is a good aim or not, a simple look at the facts will show you it is not a practical aim.

There are very few states in the world which are not "nation states". Most of those are binational states or multi-national states. They don't fare very well. In the best case end of the spectrum you have Canada and Finland, where it sort-of works, but is very far from the ideal you're trying to paint. On the worst end of the spectrum you have Czechoslovakia and, in particular, Lebanon (which has spent about half of the past century in civil wars).

Then there are non-national states. America is, formally, one. A simple look at a dollar bill will show you just how much it isn't. While it did start out as immigrants' land, we now have an "American nationality", with typical religion, language, and a way of thought that is an American as apple pie.

The only non-national state I can think of which is successful in being one is Australia, in fact. It only does so by celebrating and enshrining the differences. This is something most people are not easily up to.

People tend to group around people who are like them. It's a human thing. I think it is pointless to fight it.

Shachar

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

i always find the use of "infidels" hilarious and language indicative of seriously backwards people.
want to be a muslim? great, but dont expect people to take you seriously when you go on about "the infidels"

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

I propose a partition plan to turn Gaza into an extraterrestrial refuge. That way when our E.T. overlords arrive, the Hamas and Israel can duke it out with them to their hearts' pleasure.

please don't take this seriously

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

Since 1948 the Arabs have tried to eradicate every Jew in the general area. The 1948 UN decision to create a 2 state solution occurred at the end of WW2. In 1948 the holocaust was not a historical event that could be easily dismissed and disregarded like today. Iran can use the US and British actions in 1953 which helped spurn peaceful transition of power to fuel hatred, sow discord, and advance political arguments but the Jews cannot use the holocaust that took place only a few years earlier because it is old news or has no relevance to today's conflicts. Russia is allowed to invade sovereign states to create a buffer between them and their enemies but Israel is being asked to invite people who have done nothing but kill or try to kill them for the past 60 years. Before and during WW2 both England and the US refused to permit Jews running for their lives from Europe. Of course they made exceptions for scientists and the very wealthy. The Jewish people learned if they ever wanted to be safe they would have to do it themselves because they certainly couldn't count on help from anybody else. This is the context in which the UN made their fateful 2 state decision. 5 Arab countries with standing armies invaded with the intent of seizing the entire country. The Jews had at the time had only a semi-organized militia armed with scavenged WW2 weapons from Greece. The Arabs initially pushed the Jews all the way to the outskirts of Tel Aviv when a 30 day cease fire was organized by the UN. During the cease fire the Israelis were able to put together a better command and control of their available forces and obtain some better weapons. They then went on to drive the Arabs back to where they started and claim victory. The Arab leaders were humiliated by their defeat and ever since then they have passed along that humiliation to the following generations. These generations attempted to erase that humiliation in 1967 and 1973 and once again they were decisively defeated which only re-ignited the humiliation and lust for payback by the Arabs. Even worse Israel was able accomplish this without any significant aid or support from the US. The US support only started after 1973 when Nixon agreed to resupply the Israelis but by the war was over before any significant supplies even reach Israel. In 1973 Jordan and Egypt both attempted to get past the humiliations by swallowing their pride and making peace with Israel. Although Sadat had to convince his people they actually won the Sinai back when that was a total lie. Egyptian textbooks to this day state that Egypt won the 1973 war when in fact the Israelis ended up surrounding an entire Egyptian division in the Sinai and only stopped advancing towards Cairo after the Soviet Union threatened to give even more help to the Egyptians which would have dragged the US into the conflict. There are people today demanding Israel agree to basically undo every single gain made over the past 60 plus years and give in to the Arab demands. Demands that the Arabs have failed to achieve through force. If Israel agreed to the Arab demands the first thing that would happen would be the Arabs declaring victory and using the situation to prove that their methods (hijacking planes, suicide bombers, rockets) are working and if they just try harder they will eventually succeed in driving the Jews into the sea and demolishing the state of Israel. There will never be peace until Jordan and Egypt agree to take back control of the land they ceded to the Israelis' in 1967. Land and people abandoned callously by those countries all in an effort to burden Israel with dealing with those left behind. Israel offered to return these lands back in return for peace shortly after the 1967 war and were rebuffed by the entire Arab world.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Sun]

Rule of thumb: if you find you need to provide my end of the argument in order to win, you are probably wrong. e.g.:

The reason you won't agree to this is because Israel is a racist Jew only State and you don't want more non-Jews to be there because it would by definition signify the end of the Zionist enterprise.

No, that's not it at all. The Zionist enterprise was about creating a Jewish state, but that term does not mean what you think it means. It is not about creating a state only for Jewish (religion) people, but about creating a national home for the Jewish people. That phrasing is actually the subtitle of the Zionist charter.

Which means Israel is not, and was never meant to be, a Jews only state. If you want to claim otherwise, please provide references.

The reason I would not agree to an indiscriminate return is not because I don't like to see Arabs around (I wouldn't buy a home where I did were that the case). It's because that would turn Israel into an Arab state (i.e. - it would replace one nation's state with another). One look at the personal freedom, economics and personal safety track record of neighboring countries is enough, and that's the case where Arabs rule over Arabs. As a rule, they like me even less than they like themselves.

Your willingness to gamble away my property, my freedom and my life is touching, but I think I'm going to pass none the less.

How many non-Jewish Africans, Chinese and Indians were granted full Israeli Citizenship with equal rights, Israeli passports etc.

A nation state has every right to preserve its character through immigration control. All countries filter out immigrants, and Israel isn't even the only democracy to use religion as a criteria. Your insinuation that that's wrong needs citations.

Now you will want to claim that Jews are not a race and therefore Israel cannot be a racist state.

Strawman. I never made that argument. Next.

Shachar

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

mtthwbrnd here.

"Which means Israel is not, and was never meant to be, a Jews only state. If you want to claim otherwise, please provide references."

The only reference I need to provide is (1) your own answer...

"A nation state has every right to preserve its character through immigration control."

and (2) combined with the fact that the immigration control employed by Israel has not let any non-Jewish Chinese, Indian or African people gain full citizenship! That shows that the Israeli policy is a Jew only immigration policy which can only lead to a Jew only state. If only those pesky Arabs could have been eliminated in '48!

" and Israel isn't even the only democracy to use religion as a criteria."

Jewish is not a religion according to Israeli immigration policy. There are many Atheist and non-religious Jews who have gained citizenship of Israel on the basis of them being classified by the Israeli government as Jewish.

Please list the democracies which discriminate in their immigration policy in order to preserve the "character" of the demographics in their nation state? Any European Democracies? Does the US do that? Does the UK do that? Do any European nations do that? Does Australia do that? Does New Zealand do that? Does Canada do that? No! They do not. So which ones are you referring to?

"Strawman. I never made that argument. " Glad that you concede that Jewish is a racial trait, not a religious one and did not even bother to refute it.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Sun]

Canada gives you more points if you speak French. The USA requires that you speak English in order to get accepted. In fact, language is a factor for many of the countries you specify.

I will, however, concede a mistake on the immigration policy. It seems (preliminary, I'm still looking into it) that around 2005 the European union decided that's unethical, and has been forcing member states to forego those policies. Today these policies are much less evident than they were.

Which does not mean this is, necessarily, a good thing. I'll tell you what. Let's wait ten more years. If the European union is still around, the member states have not turned Muslim, and these rules are still in effect, let's talk again.

You also said this, however:

combined with the fact that the immigration control employed by Israel has not let any non-Jewish Chinese, Indian or African people gain full citizenship!

This is manifestly and provably wrong. About a decade ago the government decided to start stricter enforcement against illigal immigrant workers. That enforcement exposed a problem: many of those had children born in Israel, speaking Hebrew as their primary language, and being, for all intent and purposes, Israeli. The enforcement meant they were being extradicted to a country they have never even seen.

This resulted in a public outcry. The result is a law that was passed in 2006, that gave illegal residents citizenship under certain conditions. There are not many Indians who enjoyed this law, but you will find plenty of Chinese and African desent people who received citizenship.

There are few things of note here, all totally refuting your assertion of a racist Jew only state. The first is that they did not receive citizenship through some fluke or loophole. The law was changed in particular to allow them to receive it. The second was that this was not some lone legistlator's initiative. This was a result of a public outcry. This is what the country is about. I don't know anyone who thinks this undermines or contradict the Zionist aim.

Glad that you concede that Jewish is a racial trait, not a religious one and did not even bother to refute it.

Being Jewish isn't a racial trait. Discriminating based on it, however, is racist. I didn't think you'd be anal enough to care about this distinction, so I didn't bother making it.

Shachar

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

People tend to group around people who are like them. It's a human thing.

I like to think that I'm human. But I'm living on the opposite side of the planet from where I grew up and my friends and family don't have the same religion, ethnicity, or even race as me. I see that there are huge problems in the world (poverty, disease, conflict) and, having grown up with immense educational privilege, I try to use science and technology to make small contributions to reducing those problems. And I use the internet to try to find like minded people. But the grouping is virtual, rather than physical, and certainly not based on religion, or race, or ethinicity.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

"There are not many Indians who enjoyed this law, but you will find plenty of Chinese and African desent people who received citizenship."

How many non-Jewish Chinese and Africans are now full citizens of Israel? How many of them were granted their citizenship last year? How many of them over the last 10 years?

"Being Jewish isn't a racial trait."

oops, you better tell these guys that...
http://forward.com/articles/155742/jews-are-a-race-genes-reveal/?p=all
http://www.jpost.com/Enviro-Tech/Jews-A-religious-group-people-or-race

How can Jews claim that they are all descended from the same tribe on the one hand and therefore "God promised the land to THEM", but on the other, claim that they are not a Race? Well it does depend on how you define the word race. But whether we call Jews a race or a tribe, the fact is that to become a member of that group you do not have to believe in God or have any religion at all - all you have to do is be born to Jewish parents. That, for me, defines a race of people. The House Of Lords in England agrees:

"My Lords, I rise to ask His Majesty's Government whether they have any statement to make to the House as to the attitude of the Government and their Allies to the persecution of the Jewish race at the hands of the German authorities in the countries at present under Hitlerite control."
http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/lords/1942/dec/17/persecution-of-the-jews-allies

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

"Which does not mean this is, necessarily, a good thing. I'll tell you what. Let's wait ten more years. If the European union is still around, the member states have not turned Muslim, and these rules are still in effect, let's talk again."

Yes, we all know who is behind the massive immigration into Europe, who is trying to destroy Europe:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFE0qAiofMQ

Re: Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

What would the IDF do if rockets were fired from near a Jewish town? A) fire missiles at civilians sheltering in the school B) something else.

This is the problem. The response to an attack from an Arab area is to hit the area hard with heavy artillery, killing many civilians. But they would never do this if the civilians were Jewish. It is an inherently racist policy.

Re: Hamas are Terrorists

[amaurea]

Some numbers to put things into perspective: a graph showing israeli/palestinian deaths over time, and a graph showing the displacement of people and changes in territory over time.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Xest]

"in Ukraine, for instance, you could potentially partition the land since you have a rather clear line dividing east and west over language and political views"

Not in the slightest bit true. Even in Crimea which Russian annexed there was less than 50% (I believe it was 41%) support to join Russia before Putin ran his own rigged poll. In Eastern Ukraine support is even lower, the majority still want to be part of Ukraine, so if you split it off on the whining of a handful of Russian separatists then you'd be in no better a position.

"If you look at population statistics from that era, you find that Palestinians outnumbered Jews virtually everywhere."

But that's the problem, people like you insist on cherry picking a completely arbitrary point in time and go hey, I'm right! but you're ignoring the many earlier points in history where even Jewish and Christian folk were the majority - the Jews originally expelled by Palestines such that they were the majority at the point in time that you cherry picked.

This is actually similar to Ukraine, right now Putin is moving Russians into Crimea so that he can claim that Crimea can't ever become Ukrainian again because hey look, a Russian majority now live there!

You can't just take an arbitrary point in time to suit your agenda. If you want to be objective you could argue that given that Judaism is a far older religion than both Christianity and Islam that surely by definition it takes precedence in the region? But despite it's objectivity as a measure I'm not sure where exactly it would get us - even if you used an objective measure it's not going to change the fact people are fighting there and now. Whatever metric you use to try and justify who should and shouldn't be there people will still fight for their own interests.

Picking arbitrary points in time as you have to provide worthless justification doesn't help anyone. Why is your claim of 1946 more worthwhile than a claim from 2006 where Jews are the majority. You're saying we don't get back 2000 years, but why are you saying we go back 70 years? why 70? why not 90? why not 5? why not 10? why not 100? why not 1000? why not 2000?

The fact you've picked 70 odd (well, nearly 80) years is arbitrary, but you've picked it because you have a predetermined bias in support of one group over the other - you might as well have cut your post short and just said "I support the Palestinian claim" because everything else you said tells us absolutely nothing of value beyond that - it's just dressing to try and make it look like you're posting something other than personal opinion, which you're obviously not.

Re: Hamas are Terrorists

[segedunum]

Genocide? Really?

Yes really. Bombing the shit out of schools, repeatedly, to the point where it looks less like collateral damage and more like systematic targetting of civilians and children and ethnic cleansing is not acceptable.

What's ironic is Jewish people should be acutely more aware of this than most.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[segedunum]

No, that's not it at all. The Zionist enterprise was about creating a Jewish state, but that term does not mean what you think it means. It is not about creating a state only for Jewish (religion) people, but about creating a national home for the Jewish people. That phrasing is actually the subtitle of the Zionist charter.

Which means Israel is not, and was never meant to be, a Jews only state. If you want to claim otherwise, please provide references.

That's possibly one of the most creative descriptions of the Israeli state I have ever read, but then Israel and Jewish people

The reason I would not agree to an indiscriminate return is not because I don't like to see Arabs around (I wouldn't buy a home where I did were that the case). It's because that would turn Israel into an Arab state (i.e. - it would replace one nation's state with another).

The fact that you're talking in those terms of an 'Arab' and an 'Israeli' state betrays what you and the rest of us know to be true.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[segedunum]

Incomplete sentence...... .....but then Israel and Jewish people tend to frame things in that manner.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Rich0]

So I can move into your house while you are at work. You "historical" claim to that land is invalid, as I got there since then.

I get the argument, but this is basically how every national border on Earth was drawn. I doubt a single parcel of land has clear title back to the first human who slept on it.

If you can move into somebody's house while they're away at work and hold off the government's attempts to return it to them for long enough, you'll be recognized as the owner of that property. It is pretty hard to make this work for a single home though - it works better if you take over a piece of land the size of Missouri - then your entire army isn't within the kill radius of a single hand grenade.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Rich0]

Actually, the US isn't all that far off from apartheid with the whole red-state/blue-state thing (in which case 52% of the state population is happy, and 48% disagrees with just about everything being done). A proportional democracy would probably go a long way towards fixing that.

The US/Canada or US/Mexico borders are also hardly the result of some kind of UN-like peace process. Wars were fought and the border ended up where it ended up. There certainly were foreign powers involved (especially with Canada), but they weren't so overwhelmingly powerful compared to the local nations that they could just draw up a border in a smoke-filled room and force everybody to abide by it.

Actually, the US war of 1812 isn't too far off from Israel vs Palestine. The UK certainly outclassed the US back then in every way, but they didn't care to exterminate the US citizens and they knew they couldn't govern them long-term, so they fought a limited war, all the while being constrained by the need to spend the bulk of their military resources against more serious threats.

Propaganda notwithstanding the Israeli army has no desire to kill all the Palestinians, and they know they can't really govern them either, so they generally try to contain them and avoid doing much more despite their being able to do so, in part out of a desire to avoid foreign intervention.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Rich0]

There are other groups that support a Palestinian state that aren't crazed religious fanatics. Don't pretend that you have to support Hamas to support the Palestinian plight.

A big problem is that for whatever reason the locals tend to elect folks like Hamas. This is a problem, as are the idiots who keep electing crusaders in the US.

Democracy doesn't work well when huge segments of the population have no respect for individual liberty, especially religious liberty. It turns into two wolves and a sheep voting over what is for dinner.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Sun]

Know that I don't think that the concept of "nation state" is dead? That I think that Jews have a right of self-determination in addition to the Palestinians?

And merely because I'm both Jewish and Israeli doesn't mean my explanation is wrong. Well, to most thinking people, at least. If you think it is incorrect, by all means, provide references. I'd have provided references myself, except I'm not sure which part of my description you have issues with. If it's either the focus on "Jewish people", or the acceptance of minority rights, I'd need to point you no further than Israel's declaration of independence. Both are very prominent.

Shachar

Re: Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

What inanity. It is a government's duty go protect its citizens. Of course it distinguishes between citizens (regardless of religion, 20% oc Israelis are Muslims) and enemy populations. That is their job. And with Hamas being the de facto government of Gaza, yhey turn the area into enemy territory.

Re: Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think you understand how war works.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[AK Marc]

I don't disagree. I was just pointing out the folly in the GP's statements.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[AK Marc]

So borders set by international treaty are evil. But ones set by local wars are a good thing?

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

Hamas are muslims....

Muslims are scumbags that have a long history of forcefully claiming lands that don't belong to them, destroying the native cultures via forced conversions, and murder. This is followed up by destroying or converting native cultural landmarks and any other trace of native culture, and claiming they were there the whole time and that the land is rightfully theirs.
The fact that Islam is so widespread, is due to this.
Think about all the science and progress that was lost due to this.

In reality Islam is a plague that should be wiped out and should be shunned by the media and society.
Similar to other religions, but much worse, especially in modern times.
Anyone who sides with Hamas and Islam, is supporting oppression, and supporting the suppression of truth.

Islam is a plague on the land, and ISIS, hamas, hezbollah, etc.... are a symptom of this disease.

Why do ppl support the palestinians? I just dont understand... Do they hate Jews that much, that they can turn a blind eye to murder.
Even the name palestine, belongs to early Jewish settlers in the area that is now Israel.
These muslims even stole the name palestine.

Look in the news, do u see Jews all over the world setting off bombs and killing innocent ppl?
They kill a few terrorists, and all of a sudden they are war criminals.
Poor muslims ,poor poor muslims.
We should really feel soo bad for em.

They nothing but roaches.

Re: Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

When Hamas stores and fires missiles from civilian centers, what is Israel supposed to do? Politely ask Hamas to step away from their human shields.

First, it's never been proven they have been using human shields. Second, have you fucking seen Gaza?! Just pick a map, and remember it's one of the most densely populated area in the world. What the hell do you expect? Hamas building military bases far away from civilians? Where?!

You'd think people who usually spend time on slashdot are smart enough to actually open at least Wikipedia and inform themselves.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

Please show references for the number of non-Jewish Chinese and Indian and African origin people who were made full citizens of Israel, without caveat, last year and over the last 10 years.

You stated that some nations have a language requirement for immigration. That is very different to having a requirement that somebody is born Jewish - or in the rare event manages to convert to the religion of Judaism and to convince the immigration authorities that they truly are Jewish, which hardly ever occurs.

The fact that Jews determined to create a "national home for the Jewish people" on a land that was only ever populated by fewer than 8% Jews is the entire and absolute cause of the entire conflict. Coupled of course with the terrorism that was necessary in order to terrorize the 92% of others to flee - which failed and left the current Arab population in Israel who had to made into Israeli citizens, with caveats of course. Tell us, how many non-Jewish Arabs are full Israeli citizens who were born abroad and became citizens last year? Over the last 10 years?

You claim that the aim was not to create a majority Jewish population, but merely to create a "national home for the Jewish people". But the immigration policy tells us a different story. The fact that there are majority of Jews now in Israel tells us a different story. Do you deny that cute little Bibi makes policies designed to "maintain the Jewish character" of the state - i.e. policies designed to maintain an overwhelming majority of Jews, look at the African Asylum seekers, or as he calls them, infiltrators, for example.

Re: Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

So the fact that the Hamas charter calls for killing the Jews has nothing to do with this? Hamas picked a fight with Israel, and Israel is fighting back. Never had to happen, if it weren't for Hamas starting it. Hamas launches rockets from residential areas, order civilians to stay put and hope that Israel will retaliate and fire upon their rocket launchers. Israel has every right to fight back.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

It's about time for people like you to realize that Israel is going no where and there will be no right of return granted to people that have did nothing but try and kill Israelis since 1948. Never going to happen. And if they were in danger of losing a military onslaught they would turn every major city in the Middle East in a parking lot. The Israeli's do not give a shit about what other countries want when it comes to their security. They do not ask for approval from anyone when it comes to security and they are right to do so.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Corwyn_123]

What you write is complete and utter bullshit and you clearly know nothing factual about the history of the region. The fact is that there was never more than 8% Jew in the land we call Palestine/Israel today, until the Jews decided to create a racist Jew only state in that land in the late 1800's. All of the troubles stem from this. Trying to create a Jew only state on land that was inhabited by fewer than 8% Jews.

Don't believe it? Well tell it to your Jewish friends - they might need to change history to suit your ridiculous viewpoint!

I didn't say Jews, I never mentioned any religious groups, I even stated it's not about religion, if you read my comment. It's about the political groups.

"Who's right? Who's wrong? I don't know, but history is quite an eye opener." It is easy to answer this question! The Jews are wrong and Hamas is right. Hamas has the right to resist the occupation and annexation of their land, and their exclusion from living on it as equals under the law, using violence. That is their right. Israel does not have the right to claim self-defence when it acts to defend the existence of Israel wherever Israel is defined as a Jew only state built on the land of the refugees to whom it refuses the right to return to live as equals under the law on the land. When Israel accepts the right of return of the refugees to live in the land as equals under the law, then Israel can claim that it is a legitimate state and has the right the defend itself.

You obviously don't know history, and you obviously want to make and keep this a religious issue. The fact that you side with those willing to kill themselves in the process of killing others, in an attempt to be served by virgins, shows it clearly.

Look, you are obviously a bit doughy, so here is a simple analogy for your tiny brain to process: I break into your house and start raping your wife. You try to defend her by attacking me with your puny body. I turn around and snap your head off of your body. The police come to arrest me. I tell them that I was acting in self-defence - because you attacked me. The "Community", which consists of people under my control and in my pay, agree with me and I am accordingly rewarded for heroically managing to defend myself against your attack by being allowed into your 18 year old daughters bedroom for some more "fun"! That is the best analogy of the Israel/Palestine conflict which has ever been written.

And here we finally see where intelligence comes in, insults and examples of propaganda. Go read your history, not the Quran or the Bible, and learn to show a little respect to others if you wish to have a proper debate with them, those who have to lower themselves to slinging insults aren't worth the time or effort.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

That is by no means "the best analogy evar" but I will award you 2 middle fingers for what could be the douchiest asshole post I've read today.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

"I didn't say Jews, I never mentioned any religious groups,"
You think that Jews have nothing to do with Israel? That Israel, the state the Jews call the National Home of the Jewish People, has nothing to do with Jews?

Besides, Jews are not a religious group. They are a tribal, or even racial group. Non-religious atheist Jews are just as welcome in Israel under the Law Of Return as religious ones.

"You obviously don't know history, and you obviously want to make and keep this a religious issue. The fact that you side with those willing to kill themselves in the process of killing others, in an attempt to be served by virgins, shows it clearly."

Tell us the history then! The history is simple, what do you dispute:

1. There has never been more than 8% Jews in the land up until around 1930's due to overt efforts to alter the demographics.
2. In late 1800's the Jews decided to create a Jew only state in the land.
3. Following the decision Jews from all over the world were funded and encouraged to move (at the outset not many did).
4. Many non-Jews left the area, for whatever reason, and were denied the right to return to the area by the Jews.
5. A people whose lands are being annexed, occupied, settled and access to which they are denied, have the right to use violence.
6. A people who are occupying, annexing, settling and denying access to land by the population whose land it is have no right to claim self defense.
7. The only right they have is to stop the annexation, the occupation, the settlements and allow the return of the refugees to live as equals under the law.

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Rich0]

So borders set by international treaty are evil. But ones set by local wars are a good thing?

Hardly. I'm just saying that might makes right is basically how just about every border on the planet got drawn. It is a bit naive to think that it will work any differently in Gaza.

Re: Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

Since when is slashdot pro israel you ask, well, I don't know what planet your from, you can quote all the fucking numbers and twisted logic u want, but at the end of the day, this is a war, and if anyone here, including you, had a choice to be governed by a bunch of Palestinian elected fucking Islamic terrorists that will cut your head off if you look at them the wrong way or ask a woman to talk in public vs. the democratic government of Israel, I think most of us would chose israel. The fucking technology that ur using to make your post was probably invented by Israelies, so yeah, it should be pro israel; use slashdot for good or shut the fuck up and and go back to Syria or Libya, I'm sure you ll enjoy your stay there more than israel.

Re: Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

Jaredm1, you do NOT know your history. I don't know about you, but if a group of extremist that send their kids strapped with bombs to blow up busses, restaurants and schools, or indiscriminately shoots rockets to kill civilians are is not terrorists, then I don't know what is. If you start taking stupid fucking twisted logic like 'it's all they can do' against the 'occupiers' then ur worst than the terrorist yourself. Israel left gaza, there was no fucking occupation, or siege....and look what happened. Even if there was occupation, what the fuck, the Palestinians should be happy they don't live in Iraq or Syria. They have better lives than any other Islamic state surrounding them. They should actually thank Israel, stop fucking complaining, blaming everyone else for thier problems, and start building a normal society.

Re: Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

Leave the Jews alone u anti-Semite. Why the fuck do you care so much about the Palestinians when Arabs are killing each other in thousands by the day. Where is ur fucking protest on all the shit going on in Syria, Libya, Iraq. Don't fucking thrown your stupid numbers at us cuz u dont know what ur talking about. And even so, Israel makes up less than 1% of all the Arab occupied land! much less that your fucking 8% that u pulled out of your ass. The Jews deserve a home and they shoukd then have a least 8% of Arab land. I'm not here to educate you about history, but if you don't like he way a moral democratic country runs, move to Syria or Iraq. Ull be prating that israel come to save ur ass from thise fucking authoritarian terrorists that will chop ur head if u dint bow down yo thier gd.

Re: Hamas are Terrorists

[lsatenstein]

"Where is the U.N. Human Rights Council? Where is Amnesty International? Where is Human Rights Watch? Where is the international media and Middle East pundits. Where are all the lawfare experts? Here is 'Exhibit A' to indict Hamas for war crimes and crimes against humanity by placing the people of Gaza as human shields," said Rabbis Marvin Hier and Abraham Cooper, dean and founder and associate dean of the Simon Wiesenthal Center.

From the IDF Blog:

IDF forces in the Gaza Strip found a Hamas manual on “Urban Warfare,” which belonged to the Shuja’iya Brigade of Hamas’ military wing, the Al-Qassam Brigades. The manual explains how the civilian population can be used against IDF forces and reveals that Hamas knows the IDF is committed to minimizing harm to civilians.

Throughout Operation Protective Edge, Hamas has continuously used the civilian population of Gaza as human shields. The discovery of a Hamas “urban warfare” manual by IDF forces reveals that Hamas’ callous use of the Gazan population was intentional and preplanned.

This Hamas urban warfare manual exposes two truths: (1) The terror group knows full well that the IDF will do what it can to limit civilian casualties. (2) The terror group exploits these efforts by using civilians as human shields against advancing IDF forces.

The Manual:

In a portion entitled “Limiting the Use of Weapons,” the manual explains that:

        The soldiers and commanders (of the IDF) must limit their use of weapons and tactics that lead to the harm and unnecessary loss of people and [destruction of] civilian facilities. It is difficult for them to get the most use out of their firearms, especially of supporting fire [e.g. artillery].

Clearly Hamas knows the IDF will limit its use of weapons in order to avoid harming civilians, including refraining from using larger firepower to support for infantry.

The manual goes on to explain that the “presence of civilians are pockets of resistance” that cause three major problems for advancing troops:

        (1) Problems with opening fire
        (2) Problems in controlling the civilian population during operations and afterward
        (3) Assurance of supplying medical care to civilians who need it

Lastly, the manual discusses the benefits for Hamas when civilian homes are destroyed:

        The destruction of civilian homes: This increases the hatred of the citizens towards the attackers [the IDF] and increases their gathering [support] around the city defenders (resistance forces[i.e. Hamas]).

It is clear that Hamas actually desires the destruction of homes and civilian infrastructure, knowing it will increase hatred for the IDF and support their fighters.

https://www.kintera.com/accoun...

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[lsatenstein]

One response

https://www.kintera.com/accoun...

A Hamas manual on "Urban Warfare" found by the Israeli Defense Forces makes it unmistakably clear that Hamas desires civilian casualties amongst its own people and encourages its fighters to engage in battles in civilian populated areas in order to draw an Israeli response.

"Where is the U.N. Human Rights Council? Where is Amnesty International? Where is Human Rights Watch? Where is the international media and Middle East pundits. Where are all the lawfare experts? Here is 'Exhibit A' to indict Hamas for war crimes and crimes against humanity by placing the people of Gaza as human shields," said Rabbis Marvin Hier and Abraham Cooper, dean and founder and associate dean of the Simon Wiesenthal Center.

From the IDF Blog:

IDF forces in the Gaza Strip found a Hamas manual on “Urban Warfare,” which belonged to the Shuja’iya Brigade of Hamas’ military wing, the Al-Qassam Brigades. The manual explains how the civilian population can be used against IDF forces and reveals that Hamas knows the IDF is committed to minimizing harm to civilians.

Throughout Operation Protective Edge, Hamas has continuously used the civilian population of Gaza as human shields. The discovery of a Hamas “urban warfare” manual by IDF forces reveals that Hamas’ callous use of the Gazan population was intentional and preplanned.

This Hamas urban warfare manual exposes two truths: (1) The terror group knows full well that the IDF will do what it can to limit civilian casualties. (2) The terror group exploits these efforts by using civilians as human shields against advancing IDF forces.

The Manual:

In a portion entitled “Limiting the Use of Weapons,” the manual explains that:

        The soldiers and commanders (of the IDF) must limit their use of weapons and tactics that lead to the harm and unnecessary loss of people and [destruction of] civilian facilities. It is difficult for them to get the most use out of their firearms, especially of supporting fire [e.g. artillery].

Clearly Hamas knows the IDF will limit its use of weapons in order to avoid harming civilians, including refraining from using larger firepower to support for infantry.

The manual goes on to explain that the “presence of civilians are pockets of resistance” that cause three major problems for advancing troops:

        (1) Problems with opening fire
        (2) Problems in controlling the civilian population during operations and afterward
        (3) Assurance of supplying medical care to civilians who need it

Lastly, the manual discusses the benefits for Hamas when civilian homes are destroyed:

        The destruction of civilian homes: This increases the hatred of the citizens towards the attackers [the IDF] and increases their gathering [support] around the city defenders (resistance forces[i.e. Hamas]).

It is clear that Hamas actually desires the destruction of homes and civilian infrastructure, knowing it will increase hatred for the IDF and support their fighters.

Why Shuja’iya is Important

It is also of no small importance that this manual belongs to the Shuja’iya Brigade. The IDF fought a major battle in the neighborhood of Shuja’iya, which had been turned into a terrorist stronghold. The discovery of this manual suggests that the destruction in Shuja’iya was always part of Hamas’ plan.

 

Re:Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

That is one of the most obvious trolls I've seen for quite a while. Everyone who took this seriously should be embarrassed.

Re: Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.haolaowai.org/the-business-of-war-the-real-military-industrial-complex/
US supports Israel because of defense contractor profits, not some idealogue...

Ahh...

[jaredm1]

Just another article that makes big claims yet shockingly thin on any details. How are we on /. meant to have any discussion on this when there's nothing tech-worthy - just some questionable allegations.

Re:Ahh...

[Anonymous Coward]

Just another article that makes big claims yet shockingly thin on any details. How are we on /. meant to have any discussion on this when there's nothing tech-worthy - just some questionable allegations.

The goal is to drive page hits and ad-views, not necessarily to have a good discussion. A rabid flame war with no substance generates a lot more activity than a reasoned, intellectual debate, so Dice promotes heavily sensationalized troll-bait articles.
I'm afraid that discussion seems to be largely a thing of the past here.

Thank you captain obvious

[Anonymous Coward]

As far back as Vietnam (and probably long before), insurgents quickly learned that to stay near their launchers while engaging a technologically superior foe meant a quick death. The Viet Cong used mirrors, doorbells, and other low tech to monitor their tunnels to great effect.

Re:Thank you captain obvious

[Anonymous Coward]

Why don't they flood the tunnels with methane, and torch the "high tech" in advance of their destruction? They are ultimately looking to destroy these tunnels anyway, not to preserve them.

Re: Thank you captain obvious

[Anonymous Coward]

You stupid fuck, unless you're an anti-semite you'd know killing with gas is anathema for Israel.

Re: Thank you captain obvious

[Anonymous Coward]

They seemed perfectly willing to use white phosphorus so I can't see why they wouldn't burn methane as well. He is suggesting using it to burn not as a poison gas.

Re: Thank you captain obvious

[Anonymous Coward]

1) It would appear that Israel manufactured chemical weapons at Dimona
2) One can hardly compare a fuel-air explosive to the tank exhaust at Treblinka.

Re:Thank you captain obvious

[sumdumass]

They are better methods than gas. We have explosives in powder form that can be disbursed and then detonated with huge amounts of force.

My guess to why these aren't being used has to do with both the locations of the tunnels as they go under houses on both sides and possible inteligence left behind pointing to other tunnels or future uses of them

It would suck finding heat activated poisionous gas mixtures or having houses colapse with people in them or all sorts of unknowns happening because you didn't know what you were getting into. They would be better off with RC cars with cameras and claymore mines attached to them and exploring the tunnels first.

Billions?

[Ecuador]

If Hamas were funded with billions, they would not be limited to firing 500-Euro worth DIY rockets... But then again the article is from "timesofisrael.com", which I suspect is a strong believer in the idea that the entire world is conspiring to help Hamas bring terror over Israel, and whoever thinks otherwise is obviously promoting antisemitism.
I thought /. was not about promoting a particular political agenda - even if it is thrown a thin "tech" veil...

Re:Billions?

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought /. was not about promoting a particular political agenda - even if it is thrown a thin "tech" veil...

I can't remember Slashdot not being political.

Re:Billions?

[Anonymous Coward]

You weren't here before 2004 then.

That year, Slashdot suddenly became political in support of the Kerry campaign, rolling out a progressive "Politics dot Slashdot dot org" sub-domain and flooding users with Democratic propoganda. That was also the year that paid subscriptions (I bet you don't remember that, either) from the users dropped by two thirds, resulting in a downward spiral that results in Beta dot Slashdot dot org today, and the community fork, SoylentNews.

Re:Billions?

[bluegutang]

Well, the entire article is based off of verbatim quotes from "Aviad Dadon of Israeli cyber-security firm AdoreGroup", transcribed and translated from an interview on Israel Radio. It's not at all clear where Dadon gets his information. So, if you trust him, the article is reliable. If not, then no. The article may be correct, but it isn't exactly serious investigative journalism.

Re:Billions?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hamas has been funded with billions. The rockets they are firing are not all Qassams - most are not. Also, research on wikipedia is immediate fail.

Re:Billions?

[TubeSteak]

If Hamas were funded with billions, they wouldn't need "terror tunnels" to smuggle food across the border with Egypt.

Here's a good article about the tunnels:
Inside the tunnels Hamas built: Israel's struggle against new tactic in Gaza war

Three different kinds of tunnels existed beneath Gaza, said Eado Hecht, an Israeli defence analyst specialising in underground warfare: smuggling tunnels between Gaza and Egypt; defensive tunnels inside Gaza, used for command centres and weapons storage; and --connected to the defensive tunnels --offensive tunnels used for cross-border attacks on Israel. The military says it has located about 32 to 35 offensive tunnels, of which more than half have been destroyed, and it believes that there are around 40 in total.

The offensive tunnels have been dug by hand, as the use of machinery would risk detection. Military analysts estimate that each tunnel takes two to three years to complete, and costs millions of dollars.

Destroying the tunnels is also a painstaking operation. "This is very dangerous work," said Hecht. "Firstly, locating the tunnel entrances is very difficult; they are needles in a haystack." Remote technology does not yet exist to locate and map tunnels deep underground, he said, hence the need for troops.

Re:Billions?

[NeutronCowboy]

Before 2004 it wasn't political? Seriously, that only means that you started watching politics around that time and are a republican. Slashdot had ALWAYS been political. In 2001, it was full of rah rah go US, US sucks and Bush sucks sentiments. Before that, political flamefests were less regular, but that's because the political scene in the US was less political.

Re:Billions?

[dovf]

If Hamas were funded with billions, they wouldn't need "terror tunnels" to smuggle food across the border with Egypt.

Depends how those billions are allocated...

Re:Billions?

[phantomfive]

If Hamas were funded with billions, they would not be limited to firing 500-Euro worth DIY rockets [wikipedia.org]

Your information is out of date, they now use Fajr-5 and Grad rockets, not the cheap Qassam rockets they used in 2006.

Re:Billions?

[sumdumass]

While there was always some politics, you cannot deny the explosion of it with the politics section being added. It was nothing like today until then.

Today it seems to be orchestrated today by organized factions employing sockpuppet accounts and mass moderating with convienient twists on facts that follow election cycles more than anything. It is far worse than it ever has been.

Re:Billions?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, I'm sure they use "the cloud" to fire rockets... pffft

Re:Billions?

[guacamole]

Hamas uses only the weapons that it can smuggle into Gaza or what it can build itself.

Re:Billions?

[msobkow]

Ooooh. Soylent News.

With less than a dozen posts per thread.

Yeah, that's just a raving success. Clearly the slashdot community has rebelled in droves and gone over to this "fork."

*ROTFLMAO*

Re:Billions?

[NeutronCowboy]

As far as I can tell, the Slashdot discussion styles always run about a year or two ahead of what happens in the more mainstream political areas. As a result, the political section being added was a symptom, not a cause.

Re:Billions?

[oldCoder]

The Times of Israel article doesn't say Hamas is funded with billions. It says Qatar spends that much on defense, some of which goes to Hamas.

Re:Billions?

[Anonymous Coward]

There are more posts about Soylent News on Slashdot than there are posts on the Soylent News site itself.

Re:Billions?

[DeVilla]

I see few that a dozen useful posts on most /. articles. Admittedly though, Soylent could probably afford to step up their game on "Hot Grits" and shills.

Re:Billions?

[Mashiki]

If Hamas were funded with billions,

Go look up the net worth of Arafat, and the other terrorist leaders. You'll quickly figure out where those billions of dollars go very quickly. And that's before they spend them on rockets from Iran...oh wait, that's probably a lie in your book right? Useful tip: Those cost upwards of 20k each, and they had 4k of them.

Re:Billions?

[Anonymous Coward]

Smart people have a well known liberal bias. And that's not just an expression.

Re:Billions?

[Anonymous Coward]

Today it seems to be orchestrated today by organized factions employing sockpuppet accounts and mass moderating with convienient twists on facts that follow election cycles more than anything. It is far worse than it ever has been.

That's happening everywhere, not just here. It's because the political groups have finally got the hint that this whole "internet thingy" isn't going away, and have started making use of of it. It's a lot cheaper to have a volunteer astroturf a bunch of forums than it is to print and distribute leaflets/fliers. Put another way, it's the modern-day electronic version of campaign signs and political graffiti on the walls.
It's also a lot easier to get your average "armchair warrior" to trumpet your agenda online, just feed him some talking points on some mass media outlet, and he'll happily vomit it back on all the groups he frequents.

Re:Billions?

[EuclideanSilence]

I'd rather read 6 good comments about an interesting subject than see another global-warming/climate-change/climate-disruption troll post on slashdot. If you don't like soylent, good, please stay out and we'll both be happy.

Re:Billions?

[Anonymous Coward]

I too define "smart" as: anything I do or say.

Re:Billions?

[LienRag]

Isn't TImes of Israël the online journal where a israelian blogger advised a full genocide of the Arab population?
At least it bears the same name...

Bobby traps

[Anonymous Coward]

I wasn't aware British police was active in Gaza.

Re:Bobby traps

[plover]

"That's what I said: booty traps!"

Re:Bobby traps

[Anonymous Coward]

What might happen if one recited three times "Bobby Traps" in front of a mirror during Halloween? The rumor has it that the angry spirit of little Bobby Traps comes hard on the reciter, with Hellfire and hummus.

Re:Bobby traps

[Anonymous Coward]

They were until 1948, when the territory was handed over to the Zionists in the one-sided Partition Plan. The Zionists had regularly bombed the shit out of them (the British forces in Palestine) up to that point.

Qatar is a Puppet of Israel and the US

[Anonymous Coward]

Qatar wouldn't take a shit without running it by the US and Israel. Qatar is supporting Hamas because Israel needs a credible enemy to justify its brutal repression of the Palestinians. If Qatar were really doing something that Israel disapproved of, Israel would be bombing Qatar and the US would be pushing for regime change in Qatar.

Don't fall for the false flag bullshit.

Re:Qatar is a Puppet of Israel and the US

[Anonymous Coward]

Where is the "-1, delusional paranoid idiot" mod? Guess I'll have to settle for troll.

Re:Qatar is a Puppet of Israel and the US

[Anonymous Coward]

On the contrary, this busts the myth that Qatar is an ally of the US. Either that, or that Qatar knows that the US doesn't give a rat's ass about Israel, and is absolutely fine w/ Qatar backing Hamas.

Thats amazing!

[Anonymous Coward]

"...networked, cloud-based launching software provided by Qatar which can set off a rocket from any distance, and set them to go off at a specific time, using timers."

That's some high tech shit right there! Thank's for luring me in... As per usual...

Qatar follows a Previous Model

[rmdingler]

The United States and the former Soviet Union were renowned during the Cold War for testing new warfare technology in a foreign theatre. Israeli use of US military tech has been a proving ground for decades for new ways to deliver death and destruction.

Although there's a measure of efficacy that can only be achieved in real time conflict, there's a downside.

The technology is also exposed to your enemy, theoretically allowing different defense methods to be tested.

Re:Qatar follows a Previous Model

[Anonymous Coward]

I've never actually looked at it this way.
Seeing the Israeli Palestinian conflict as yet another proxy war actually makes a lot of sense.
Especially when you look at the way the media is used to paint one side as completely good or completely evil depending on which country you are in.

Re:Qatar follows a Previous Model

[benjfowler]

If that were truly the case, and if Israeli really wanted to wipe out the Palestinians, that the breathless pro-Hamas dupes posting here claim, there wouldn't be a single Palestinian alive on Earth. Given what the Russians did to Grozny in the Second Chechan War, and given how much more overwhelmingly powerful the Western militaries are, it's actually a credit to the Israelis they've been able to do so little damage and kill so few people.

Anyway, what about Syrian civilians, slaughtered wholesale by (inferior) Russian weaponry. 200,000+ dead. Don't they count?

Re:Qatar follows a Previous Model

[Anonymous Coward]

What better test for weapons than a real life war situation ? And start a war in one's own country is not a good idea. Therefore, the only way weapons can be tested is in foreign theaters. You have a better idea ?

Re:Qatar follows a Previous Model

[sponga]

"new ways to deliver death and destruction"

Normally I would agree with you but the iron dome is a completely self defensive weapons.

Hamas using timers to set off rockets next to a civilians house is not something to be proud about or using remote cameras on their tunnels to watch incoming soldiers is not groundbreaking.

Re:Qatar follows a Previous Model

[fustakrakich]

I missed this thread

Re:Qatar follows a Previous Model

[guacamole]

During Second Chechen war, most civilians were gone out of Grozny. It was a brick ruble after the first war already.

Re:Qatar follows a Previous Model

[guacamole]

New weapons are battle tested all the time. However, it's ridiculous to suggest that this conflict exists to test the weapons. Also, Israel has a pretty impressive domestic defense industry. A lot of latest and greatest weapons they use are home made.

Re:Qatar follows a Previous Model

[Anonymous Coward]

If Israel really cared about civilian life as they proclaim they would allow civilians in Gaza to evacuate instead of locking them in while they continuously shell and bomb them. Considering it's the 40th most densely populated plot of land, hermetically sealed with "aid" calculated by the calories I do wonder how they think. Also why not bomb actual unused schools where the rockets were found instead of overcrowded ones with internally displaced refugees. At least the russians let the chechen population flee the bombardment. IDF is nothing but savages.

Re:Qatar follows a Previous Model

[Anonymous Coward]

It's ridiculous as you say, but not totally unfounded. Do watch documentaries on israeli weapons industry and how they promote "battle tested" weapons. Read up on how the DIME weapon is tested in this and previous conflicts.

Re:Qatar follows a Previous Model

[fustakrakich]

A lot of latest and greatest weapons they use are home made.

yeah, but, whose home are we talking about?

Re:Qatar follows a Previous Model

[benjfowler]

At least the russians let the chechen population flee the bombardment.

Through filtration camps.

Re:Qatar follows a Previous Model

[SmokeyRobot]

Also, Israel has a pretty impressive domestic defense industry. A lot of latest and greatest weapons they use are home made.

While I am sure this is true the Israeli domestic defense industry pales in comparison to the size of the US and Russia MICs.

Re:Qatar follows a Previous Model

[TwoEyedJack]

Nonsense. The Israelis are far, far more restrained than the Allies were in WW2. If Hamas weren't launching rockets from schools, then the IDF wouldn't be targeting them.

Re:Qatar follows a Previous Model

[Shadow99_1]

One problem with terrorists in general (at least smart ones) is you generally can't tell them from anyone else. Hence letting people 'flee' could be expanding the scope of the conflict. Right now all the potential people who could be Hamas are at least generally contained.

Really I'm just waiting to see what nutty neighbor decides it must 'rescue' the muslim Hamas of Gaza and decides to fight Israel again over it... It would only be the fourth of fifth time their neighbors have attacked them under the guise of aiding the muslim population of the country... All of which is thanks to the British in the first place who promised the same land to both sides when they left.

Misleading headline

[wheelbarrio]

That's not an article about the high tech warfare behind the Israel-Hamas conflict. It's an article about the alleged use of some pretty run-of-the-mill technology by one side (Hamas) with no reference to the actual sophisticated technology used by the other side (Israel). If the article in itself isn't necessarily so, the phrasing of the headline and the summary here is an attempt to portray this conflict as something other than the massively one-sided affair that it actually is. It's a whitewash pure and simple. I wish both sides would just stop killing each other but seriously, "cloud-based launching software"? So Hamas can launch unguided rockets without having to stand next to them. Sounds pretty nasty compared to sophisticated air defence, MBTs, total air superiority and massed artillery.

Re:Misleading headline

[benjfowler]

And also shows how Hamas are taking the moral high ground too... /s.

And claiming that "desperation" justifies behaving like thugs, and launching those unguided POS bottle rockets by remote control at civilians is somehow justified... Just got to love those good old fashioned Islamic moral values...

Re:Misleading headline

[Anonymous Coward]

Have a look at what happened to Dresden. Desperate people do desperate things. The USA & UK even allied with Stalin.

Re:Misleading headline

[oldCoder]

We already knew Israel had a high-tech military. But who of us knew Hamas was going that way too?

Re:Misleading headline

[Anonymous Coward]

A timer on an unguided rocket sounds pretty advanced tech to me.

Quiet, Troll

[Anonymous Coward]

The moment Israel returns to their pre-1945 borders, Hamas stops shooting, period.

Re:Quiet, Troll

[Anonymous Coward]

The Jews' pre-1945 borders is a place called Auschwitz you anti-semitic fuck.

Re:Quiet, Troll

[Anonymous Coward]

The moment Israel returns to their pre-1945 borders, Hamas stops shooting, period.

They should revert to their original border, Judea was much larger. That is long before 1945, so should satisfy your requirement.

Re:Quiet, Troll

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh I'm sorry. Genocide against the Jews was tragic. Genocide committed by the Jews in the name of the State of Israel is justified, and anybody who questions otherwise is an anti-Smite?

Read a book about what the fuck Semites are, too, you sound like an idiot.

Re: Quiet, Troll

[Anonymous Coward]

Israel didn't exist before 1948 idiot.
There is no pre-1945. Unless you you deny the right of Israel to exist. In that case fuck off.

Re: Quiet, Troll

[Anonymous Coward]

That's actually pretty funny.

Re: Quiet, Troll

[Anonymous Coward]

Yea, the Stern Gang gave all the justification Israel needs to exist. They do look rather like Hamas though.

Re: Quiet, Troll

[Anonymous Coward]

Your message seems to be confused. If Israel did not exist pre-1948, then why does it now have a "right to exist"? I was under the impression that the right to exist was based upon many thousands of years of existance?

Re: Quiet, Troll

[Anonymous Coward]

So the USA has no right to exist according to you?
To be exact : according to you no country has a right to exist, as no country is "many thousands of years" in existence.

You are such a tool.

Re:Quiet, Troll

[Sun]

I always find the "genocide" mantra strange.

Pick any place in the world where a "genocide" accusation was levied, and you get a death count in the hundreds of thousands at least. Over the past decade, less than ten thousand Palestinian were killed by Israel (this number includes Palestinian killed while holding and using a weapon, which would not, normally, be counted in the "genocide" statistics). If Israel is committing genocide, why is the death toll so low?

Either Israel is attempting genocide, but is being completely incompetent about it, or the genocide accusation is pure bullshit.

Shachar

Re: Quiet, Troll

[Anonymous Coward]

If Israel did not exist pre-1948, then why does it now have a "right to exist"? I was under the impression that the right to exist was based upon many thousands of years of existance?

More to the point why does any nation state have a "right to exist"? The very concept never appear to be applied to anywhere else. There was even talk of splitting up a country which has existed fo thousands of years (Iraq).

Re:Quiet, Troll

[Sarius64]

I always find the "genocide" mantra strange.

Pick any place in the world where a "genocide" accusation was levied, and you get a death count in the hundreds of thousands at least. Over the past decade, less than ten thousand Palestinian were killed by Israel (this number includes Palestinian killed while holding and using a weapon, which would not, normally, be counted in the "genocide" statistics). If Israel is committing genocide, why is the death toll so low?

Either Israel is attempting genocide, but is being completely incompetent about it, or the genocide accusation is pure bullshit.

Shachar

Sadly cannot mod up. Good thoughts.

Re:Quiet, Troll

[Anonymous Coward]

I always find the "genocide" mantra strange.

Isn't there part of you that sees the suffering of the Palestinians and feels just a bit of compassion - recognizing that this "conflict" has been going on for over a century now - that a person doesn't choose to be born into poverty in Gaza. Don't you see the photos of the little children who are killed and injured in this conflict and want to help lift them up to live lives of happiness, peace and prosperity.

Does it really matter whether or not they're Jewish? Are you so absorbed in the narraritive of you yourself as the perpetual victim that you can't recognize the underlying humanity of others?

Doesn't it give you just a bit of pause - make you stop and think a just bit about your own ethics and morality - when you're like, "Well, if we only consider the last ten years, then the rate at which we're killing them isn't quite high enough to qualify as a full on genocide."

Re:Quiet, Troll

[Sun]

I ache for all lives lost in this conflict. Every time I have to interrupt my daily routine (or my sleep) in order to run for shelter, every time I think about complaining about it, I know how much better I have it that my bomb shelter is an integral part of my apartment, where people in Gaza simply have none. Yes.

And none of this is an excuse to levy false accusations. This conflict, as you said, has gone on for almost a century. You arbitrarily decided to blame it all on Israel, and are using stronger and stronger rehtorics in order to do so. Havn't you considered stopping and wondering why these don't work? Why is it that so few Israelies see your point? Do you really believe we are all racist evil sadists? Or is it possible that we see your rehtorics for the bullshit they are?

I think you will agree with me that this conflict will not be resolved by pushing the Palestinians into submission. Why, then, do you think it can be resolved by pushing the Israelies to the same place? If this isn't genocide, why call it so? What purpose does it possibly serve? What purpose does calling Israel "apartheid" serve (just as easily proven wrong as "genocide" or "massacare")? What purpose does ignoring Hamas's decisions and responsibility for the safety of its own people serve? In what way does ignoring relevent and important facts bring the conflict's resolution closer?

The only purpose this serves is cleansing your own concience. You blame the obvious bully. You feel good with yourself. The world is fine.

Well, tough. I don't get to choose. I live here. This is my home. This is where my family and friends live. This is my country you're trashing, for no better reason than to feel better with yourself.

Fuck you!

Shachar

Re:Quiet, Troll

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, tough. I don't get to choose. I live here. This is my home. This is where my family and friends live.

Myself, I've pursued interests and opportunities all over the world.

It's hard to even imagine living out my life entirely within a hundred miles or so of where I grew up. When I go new places, I make new friends - and my extended family also live in various interesting places around the world - so it's fun to go visit my family (and my old friends) wherever they happen to be. I just can't imagine what it would be like to only be happy living out my life within a hundred miles of where I was born.

I suppose people like you just really want (need?) to stay and duke it out to the bitter end. But it would be great if all the countries of the world could agree to help people leave who wanted to - e.g. providing an easy path to citizenship for anyone and everyone wanting to escape that conflict.

Re:Quiet, Troll

[dave420]

Or, the third option - Israel knows it has all the time it needs, as it is getting all the international support it needs to continue on this path. What better form of genocide exists than one which can be argued is nothing of the sort? Just a thought.

Re:Quiet, Troll

[Sun]

I hear, between the lines, that you do not have either a spouse or children.

The more you age, the more moving becomes hard. When you're young and independent, it's great to move around, see the world. When you're a bit older, it's great that you can easilly have your kids see their grandparents, uncles, cousines. You begin to ask yourself what are the values your kids will be raised on, what language they are going to speak.

Maybe it's not important to you. That's fine. To each his own. This includes me, and most of the world.

As for a world with no limitation on immigration, I don't think it is the utopia you imagine it to be. Check out what's currently happening in Europe.

We grew up in a piece of the world where certain things seem self evident and obvious. As such, some start to question whether things can be any other way. They can. Democracy needs to be protected. Your personal freedom needs to be protected. Your safety does not happen all by itself. Absolute equality does not exist.

There is an proverb in Hebrew which translates to "don't spill the baby with the water". When striving for a better world, don't go so far that you've destroyed all that was good in the old one.

Shachar

Re:Quiet, Troll

[Anonymous Coward]

I hear, between the lines, that you do not have either a spouse or children.

I have both. And we travel around the world to visit friends and family just fine. It's actually very educational to see the diverse living situations of their relatives. And we actually speak a couple different languages.

But what about you? Do you really want your children to live out their lives within a hundred miles of where they were born? Are you really so fearful of most of the rest of the world that you would deny them the opportunity to pursue their interests across the globe?

And even if security is all that matters to you, do you really imagine that, of all the places in the world that they could live, Israel is really the safest? Isn't there a very real possibility that this could eventually end very badly for both sides?

Re:Quiet, Troll

[sociocapitalist]

I always find the "genocide" mantra strange.

Pick any place in the world where a "genocide" accusation was levied, and you get a death count in the hundreds of thousands at least. Over the past decade, less than ten thousand Palestinian were killed by Israel (this number includes Palestinian killed while holding and using a weapon, which would not, normally, be counted in the "genocide" statistics). If Israel is committing genocide, why is the death toll so low?

Either Israel is attempting genocide, but is being completely incompetent about it, or the genocide accusation is pure bullshit.

Shachar

genocide
noun \je-n-sd\

: the deliberate killing of people who belong to a particular racial, political, or cultural group
source: http://www.merriam-webster.com...

There is no requirement for a particular quantity of people to be killed.

Re:Quiet, Troll

[Sun]

You're begging the question. Your comment only makes sense if you assume the very thing I'm questioning.

Shachar

Re: Quiet, Troll

[Anonymous Coward]

So Hamas is not commotion genocide because it is attacking Jews, Arabs and others indiscriminatingly. And Israel is not because they are motivated by either self defence or greed/conquest. So please stop using the word.

Re:Quiet, Troll

[Anonymous Coward]

"Either Israel is attempting genocide, but is being completely incompetent about it, or the genocide accusation is pure bullshit.

Or they are trying to do it in such a way that it does not get noticed.

Re:Quiet, Troll

[Sun]

Seriously, you cannot see any other possible motive for Israel's actions other than sadistic hatred? Nothing? No other possible explanation?

Shachar

Re: Quiet, Troll

[Anonymous Coward]

No, no I can't.

http://www.loonwatch.com/2014/07/idf-sniper-david-d-ovadia-admits-to-killing-13-children-in-gaza-says-your-next-fucking-muslims/
http://www.loonwatch.com/2014/07/idf-sniper-david-d-ovadia-admits-to-killing-13-children-in-gaza-says-your-next-fucking-muslims/

Re:Quiet, Troll

[Anonymous Coward]

Genocide committed by the Jews

You do realize that Israel provides electricity to Gaza, and over 180 truckloads of food every day. They also provide free medical care to Gazans, as well as to people from Syria and the West Bank? And has been doing this for years? The medical treatment includes the leaders of the groups Israel is supposedly trying to commit genocide against. How does this translate to genocide? Are you seriously that unbelievably ignorant to think that this is genocide?

Re: Quiet, Troll

[Sun]

Let's assume this post is real (the article suggests this is, at best, under dispute). So one lunatic condemns an entire nation in your eyes?

The amount of proof by example seen in these debates is saddening.

Shachar

Re:Quiet, Troll

[Anonymous Coward]

There are multiple reasons why the Palestinians' plight is more important to people than others:

1) It is an old conflict. These people have been oppressed for half a century. Entire generations never known freedom.

2) No other oppressor has been defended so fiercely by the Western leaders: every fucking time a leader talks about Israel, the speech starts with "Israel has the right to self defense". What about the Palestinians' right to self defense? Hypocrites. This also proves how much influence Israel has over the world's politics, and quite frankly people have had enough. Unfortunately, this brings far too strong feelings sometimes.

3) No other oppressor has been so carefully protected and promoted by the media in the Western world as Israel, and at the same time few people were portrayed so negatively as the Palestinians: they are all terrorists, even the small children, right? They are essentially dehumanized.

4) In many cases, people were thoroughly manipulated by media, and when they finally come to see the truth, they feel very strongly about being on the wrong side of the conflict until then. I would go as far as saying many people feel shame for ever supporting Israel.

Thankfully, media is now reporting far better on this issue, and can afford far less deceptions due to alternative ways of getting the same information.
 

Either Israel is attempting genocide, but is being completely incompetent about it, or the genocide accusation is pure bullshit.

The only reason why Israel shows restraint is because the Western world have fucking had enough, and no matter how many politicians they scare and/or bribe, they are afraid of massive reactions which may result in the isolation of Israel. And no matter how smart you think Israelis are, their state would NOT survive in isolation.

Re:Quiet, Troll

[Sun]

The only reason why Israel shows restraint is because the Western world have fucking had enough, and no matter how many politicians they scare and/or bribe, they are afraid of massive reactions which may result in the isolation of Israel. And no matter how smart you think Israelis are, their state would NOT survive in isolation.

Let's try to do this the scientific way, shall we?

Here's an alternative theory. Israel is just trying to protect itself. Over time, the Palestinians, with a stress on Hamas, have started combining their strategy. Instead of trying to directly fight Israel (through suicide bombers and rockets), they now employ a combined strategy, involving provoking Israel to the point Israel has no choice but to respond, and then sacrificing Palestinians (by placing them deliberately in harm's way) to gain two objectives. One is to make Israel not attack strategic locations (headquarters, ammo depos, etc.). The other is, when Israel does attack, to have as high as possible body counts, broadcasting horrendous pictures of death, swaying public opinion, convincing people like you that Israel is horrible.

Now, lets see if we can devise predictions based on which we can distinguish between the theories. If your theory is correct, hurting Palestinians would be an agenda inside Israel. Papers in Hebrew would write about it supportively. Politicians would brag about it during elections. More importantly, since, as you said, the world media's attention is giving this issue more and more focus, limiting Israel's ability to act, the Palestinian casualties count would be in a constant decline. You'd expect a peek around the time Israel was physically occupying areas, with a sharp decline once Gaza was evicted, and a further decline as time goes on since. You certainly wouldn't expect the IDF to invent never before used methods to warn people that an area is going to be bombed.

If I am correct, however, not hitting Palestinians would be an agenda. The Hebrew media would be focused around damage done to Israel, rather than to the Palestinians. When reporting Palestinian innocent casualties, it would be in a downbeat, rather than an upbeat, tone. You would hope to see official Hamas actions attempting to maximize Palestinian casualties. You'd also expect casualties count would be higher after Israel withdrew from Gaza than before. Finally, the "reactive Israel" theory predicts that major escalations by Israel take place after major attacks on civilian population by Hamas.

So which is it? Where is your smoking gun? Where are the huge happy headlines in Israeli papers hailing the high death toll this operation has had on Palestinians? Where are the politicians bragging about how many Palestinians they killed?

On the other hand, here is Hamas telling people to stay put when warned by Israel an area is going to be bombed. Here is a Hamas spokeman taking pride in sacrificing civilians. Here is Hamas firing a missile from a press studio. Please note these are all primary sources. They are not someone giving their interpretations of events. They are recording of the actual events. The only exception is the first link, where the primary source (reachable from within the article) is in Arabic.

Shachar

Re: Quiet, Troll

[sociocapitalist]

So Hamas is not commotion genocide because it is attacking Jews, Arabs and others indiscriminatingly. And Israel is not because they are motivated by either self defence or greed/conquest. So please stop using the word.

Don't be an idiot.

The word is accurate in both cases. In the case of Israel, however, the use of the word brings to mind the hypocrisy of Israel as they have complained long and loudly, and rightly so, at the treatment they had at the hands of the Germans in WW2 and yet they treat another group of people exactly as they themselves do not want to be treated.

Re: Quiet, Troll

[Sun]

That's because the Meriam Webster definition quote from above only quotes the abstract, not the full definition:

the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group

emphasis added.

It is not enough to merely kill (nor is killing a hard requirement). The main point behind genocide is an attempt at destruction of the race. This is also reflected in other sources

Wikipedia:

Genocide is the systematic destruction of all or part of a racial, ethnic, religious or national group...

Dictionary.com:

the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.

The amount of Palestinians killed by Israel is so small, it has not even stopped natural growth. You cannot destroy a race if you're not even significantly affecting natural growth.

This brings me back to my original claim: Either Israel is being completely incompetent about it, or this claim is pure bullshit.

It's not clear whether Hamas is attempting genocide or something else. I for one, haven't managed to deduce any meaningful aims from their actions.

One way or the other, genocide is very clearly listed in Hamas's charter. Then again, equally clearly, is that even if that's what they are attempting, they are very very very far from successful. In this case, however, you can blame incompetence. I think their incompetence renders the question of whether that's what they are attempting moot.

Shachar

Re: Quiet, Troll

[sociocapitalist]

Well argued and, while I do not like at all the civilian casualties oh so casually inflicted on the Palestinians by Israel I have to agree that it does not qualify as genocide.

Re: Quiet, Troll

[Sun]

I don't think you'd think the civilian Palestinian casualties are inflicted casually had you been reading the Hebrew coverage or absorbing the atmosphere on the Israeli street. I think you are are erring in the opposite direction from before this time.

Before, you were implicitly accusing of Israel of impotency, of wishing to kill the Palestinains off, but failing. This time around, you are implicitly accusing Israel of super-potency. You are implying Israel has a choice in the matter. That it has some magical weapons able to distinguish a civilian from an active militant. How difficult that is depends on how much the other side honors international treaties requiring separation of the two.

With Hamas actions as they are, I doubt such a weapon exist that even conforms to the laws of physics. Whether that's an hyperbole or not, Israel does not seem to posses one. I can say with certainty that, had it had the ability, it would use it. I say so with such certainty because of the leaflets, "knock on roof", advance warning phone calls and aborted missions cannot nor should not be shrugged aside as inconsequencial, accidental or casual. They are unprecendented, and were, after all, invented by Israel for the sole purpose of reducing civilian casualties.

I would suggest to you that you ask yourself how you came around believing "genocide", despite it being completely ungrounded in reality. It should be fairly obvious that the word was introduced in order to create a shock value, without care for whether it has anything to do with actual facts. In other words, it is pure propoganda, in the worst meaning of the word.

Your latest response obviously shows you have not given up on applying your own critical thinking. Well done (no sarcasm). I would recommend you ask yourself what sources you were exposed to that led you, only two days ago, to believe "genocide". I would humbly suggest reconsidering your sources.

Shachar
P.s.
This /. discussion is getting old, and it is becoming unlikely that anyone but the two of us ever read this thread. My email clearly appears at the top of every comment I write. If you wish to continue discussing this (which I'm always happy to do), please consider doing so to my private email.

Re: Quiet, Troll

[Sun]

I just came across this, which I think you might find useful.

Shachar

Re: Quiet, Troll

[sociocapitalist]

"Before, you were implicitly accusing of Israel of impotency, of wishing to kill the Palestinains off, but failing."
No I never did so don't put words in my mouth.

"This time around, you are implicitly accusing Israel of super-potency."
I have said from the beginning that Israel is super potent indeed.

" You are implying Israel has a choice in the matter. That it has some magical weapons able to distinguish a civilian from an active militant."
Yes, they're called eyeballs. What a soldier has in his head that a shell does not. Combined with judgement said soldier can generally determine if a child playing on a swingset is a danger or not.

Don't use the excuse of 'If Hamas had it'. Of course if Hamas had a super weapon they would wipe out as many Israeli civilians as they could. I have never said otherwise and I would not condone such an act as I do not condone the attacks that Hamas uses now against Israeli civilians, but neither do I accept this as an excuse of Israeli behavior of shelling indiscriminately instead of sending in foot soldiers.

The leaflets. Tell me exactly how the leaflets were supposed to protect the civilians and UN staff in the UN compound that were killed by incidental shelling?

There is no place for Palestinian civilians to go that can be considered safe at this point.

Oh leave off with the word genocide. Used or not the reality is that Israel kills Palestinian civilians without any more care than the Germans had for the killing of Jews in WW2.

Re: Quiet, Troll

[sociocapitalist]

I've never taken the numbers at face value.

I do find it useful to note, however, that according to that article 33% (so 622) of the casualties are women and children, the "least likely to be legitimate targets".

Re: Quiet, Troll

[Sun]

What is the normal number for this type of terrain and enemy? Who much were killed in other similar conflicts?

Shachar

Re: Quiet, Troll

[Sun]

What would you say should be the fate of a UN run school that is used to store ammunition or to launch offensives? Would you say it loses its impartiality status at that point?

Shachar

Re: Quiet, Troll

[sociocapitalist]

There was nothing stored at this school.
http://time.com/3076108/gaza-i...

Even if there had been, Israel could have sent in foot soldiers who could use those super weapons called eyeballs to decide who to kill and who not.

Instead, as Israel does not want to incur military casualties of their own which would cause political backlash in Israel itself, they shell at a distance - easy for them but incurring, overall, seven times as many dead Palestinian children as there have been Israeli military and civilian casualties combined. Dead Palestinian children being more acceptable in Israel, obviously, than dead Israeli soldiers.
http://www.france24.com/en/201...

Re: Quiet, Troll

[Sun]

There was nothing stored at this school.
http://time.com/3076108/gaza-i...

The only thing that link shows is that the UN chief is ignoring the facts to gain cheap headlines. Nothing there denies the facts alleged by either Israel nor the UNRWA press release I linked to.

Even if there had been, Israel could have sent in foot soldiers who could use those super weapons called eyeballs to decide who to kill and who not.

Your assertion that under battle you have better control over not killing bystanders need better basing on facts. Foot soldiers on the ground means less control over the fight, as you have to take care of defense as well as attack. This results in more, not less, civilian casualties.

The biggest number of Palestinian casualties this time around, by far, were in Shuja'iyya, where the Israeli forces were taken by surprise and had to bring in artilery support. This simply does not happen in air raids.

Instead, as Israel does not want to incur military casualties of their own which would cause political backlash in Israel itself, they shell at a distance - easy for them but incurring, overall, seven times as many dead Palestinian children as there have been Israeli military and civilian casualties combined. Dead Palestinian children being more acceptable in Israel, obviously, than dead Israeli soldiers.

The objectives of any army in conflict inside urban area has, is, and seems to always continue to be, in descending order of precendence:
1. Get the mission done
2. Minimize own casualties
3. Minimize civilian enemy casualties

The only thing in which the IDF is different is that it sometimes places "3" above "2", and even above "1" above. That anomality is only happening in the IDF. Most other moral armies use the above list as is. Israel used to abort missions if there was a high chance of civilian casualties. Hamas manuvered that into making it impossible for Israel to act at all. Such a thing, while I'm sure would be lauded by some, would be even more immoral. The result is the high number of casualties in this round of fighting.

Israel has a clear interest in minimizing the number of casualties. There is both internal and external pressure to keep civilian casualties to a minimum. Hotheads like you blame Israel for every Palestinian dead, regardless of circumstances and actions, calling for boycotts and pressuring their own governments. Israel has no interest in killing Palestinians. Your asserted indifference is simply without grounding in reality.

Hamas, on the other hand. Well, that's a different story altogether. Every Palestinian dead is a Hamas win. Internally, they call them "Shahids" and claim that they are martyrs. I'm sure many Palestinians would love to call bulshit on this rehtorics, but the simply truth is that they do not. They are probably too afraid to fall out of line or to be accused of "cooporating with Israel", an accusation carrying the death penalty.

Externally, Hamas has equally little incentive to care for their own people. When you see horrible pictures of the dead (and they are horrible), you (i.e. sociocapitalist) don't stop to ask questions. You don't wonder why they did not clear out when warned. You don't seek media sources that will report to you Hamas explicit instructions (orders) to people to "defy" the Israeli warnings. People say that Israel is strong (which is true) and Hamas is weak (which is not as true as people believe, but definitely not false), and assign zero accountability to Hamas' actions. While I'm sure you congratulate yourself on being in the moral right, it is, in fact, your indifference to the truth that allows Hama

Re: Quiet, Troll

[sociocapitalist]

Frankly, discussion with you is pointless because you will obviously believe what you want to believe regardless of any other information presented. On top of that you have a habit of not actually paying attention to what I say.

Enjoy your rationalizations. If you are religious I hope they serve you well in whatever afterlife you may believe in.

Re: Quiet, Troll

[Sun]

Your reply describes, almost word for word, my feelings about you.

You make certain assertions (say, Israel is casual about casualties). I bring evidence to the contrary (say, the procedures put in place to prevent harm). You either discard them as irrelevant, without explaining why, or assert new allegations.

The problem is that people like you are so certain they are right, and feel good about themselves to boot, while hurting me. As you have pointed out quite correctly earlier, Hamas would slaughter me and my family without a second of hesitation, had they only had the chance. As you also pointed out (or maybe it was someone else, I lose track), Israel cannot withstand on its own.

Thankfully, while the mindless crowd is quite happy to follow careless media coverage to jump to whatever feel-good conclusions they want, the world leaders are not as quick to act recklessly (I think the anti-Israel mob is calling this "the Jewish loby controlling foreign governments", but I'm sure you're above lowering yourself to suggesting that Israel is controlling other countries). So far, we're sort of doing okay. I, for one, do not take it for granted. That's why I take your opinion seriously. Because you can make a difference, and because I believe you are misguided, rather than racist. If I believed you to be racist, I wouldn't have bothered with this thread.

That's why, in the midst of a vacation in France taken for the purpose of attending my sister's wedding, I am taking the time to research answers to your assertions. I'm doing it almost like my life depends on it, because in an infinitisimal way, I believe it does.

So, if you don't want to have this discussion any more, that's fine. I won't (nor can I) force you to. It is my hope that I have seeded just a smidgen of doubt in your mind, so that the next time someone asserts some fact, that you will remember to ask yourself whether that is really the only way to interpret it, or how reliable the source have proven in the past.

Have a great life,
Shachar

Re: Quiet, Troll

[sociocapitalist]

Yes, we agree that we feel the same way about the other.

Each brings their 'evidence' which the other does not appear to be listening to. I have listened to what you have to say and I believe that you find rationalizations and justifications for thinking what you want. Of course you think the same thing of me.

You might find it worth noting that Hamas would also slaughter me and my family. I have no reason at all to have bias against Israel or for Hamas. Yet still I believe that Israel is going about defense the wrong way.

As far as world leaders...No I do not think that Israel controls any other countries. But I do think that if Israel were not such a strategic necessity of western powers that Israel would not be getting away with what has been gotten away with. I don't hear any world leaders saying that Israel is doing the right thing, whereas I do hear otherwise. The last article I sent you was the US condemning the Israeli attack. Of course you dismissed this just like you dismiss anything else that you don't like but whatever.

I appreciate you taking the time to answer, though you are busy.

If you're in Paris and have time let me know and we can meet for coffee or a drink. I work across the street from the Israeli embassy.

Re: Quiet, Troll

[Sun]

You might find it worth noting that Hamas would also slaughter me and my family.

Since you live in France, it may yet happen :-(. It is anyone's guess what will be that country's charter in a decade. If the danger becomes imminent, at least you have a country whose charter it is to give you sanctuary, no questions asked.

I have no reason at all to have bias against Israel or for Hamas.

I think I have written this elsewhere already. I don't think you are biased against Israel. I think you are being fed by news sources that are biased. Most of them are biased simply because this is a very complicated conflict and news outlets favor simple "good vs. bad" stories. The precise reasons aren't important, however. The media coverage of the conflict in Europe in general, and in France in particular, gives a highly filtered image of things. It is quite natural for moral people to reach far-reaching conclusions that are, simply put, wrong.

Snipped out a bunch of stuff because you asked to wind the discussion down....

I don't hear any world leaders saying that Israel is doing the right thing, whereas I do hear otherwise.

Partly this is because world leaders are not above the bias of their own media. More to the point, world leaders listen to what their citizens have to say. That's why it is important to me to try and convince those critics/bashers that are not working from inherent bias.

Then again, there is the other reason. Israel's leadership of late is not confidence inspiring. Neither Netanyahu nor Liberman understand diplomacy, and do not carry out any well defined long term plan. They are both a little too fond of using arm wrestling to solve personal conflicts. I understand why the world leaders don't like Netanyahu. Nobody likes Netanyahu. He's only still prime minister because of a sore deficiency in worthy alternatives.

But merely because Netanyahu is a jerk (and he is), doesn't mean everything said about him or the country he's leading is correct. Add to that the complete lack of understanding of the conflict by most of the intermediaries self-appointed to solve it and you've got yourself a royal mess. Add to that a UN body that seemed to have zero interest in impartiality (it appointed a committee to investigate "Israel's violations of Human Rights". In essence, the committee's charter precludes it from investigating Israel's main defense. Then, as if the chances of getting a fair investigation were not slim enough, one of the three members was born and raised in Lebanon. Of course the UN secretery is going to condemn Israel when this committee is over).

The last article I sent you was the US condemning the Israeli attack. Of course you dismissed this just like you dismiss anything else that you don't like but whatever.

No, the article you sent bears the title "Palestinians to abandon Gaza truce talks unless Israeli team returns", and has no mention of any US stance of any kind. I am willing to believe you sent me the wrong article by mistake, but will non the less refuse to take responsibility for it.

If you're in Paris and have time let me know and we can meet for coffee or a drink. I work across the street from the Israeli embassy.

Hard as it is to believe, I did not plan to visit the Israeli embassy. Despite my current cell phone number being a temporary one until the end of the trip, I still don't feel comfortable publishing it here. Drop me an email if you're serious, and we'll see if it pans out.

Shachar

Re: Quiet, Troll

[sociocapitalist]

Have you received my email?

Re: Quiet, Troll

[Sun]

Finally managed to send an email. Got it. Thanks.

Shachar

really? So Hamas is now a tech war machine?

[Anonymous Coward]

oh, please, just stop trying to justify what Israel is doing. They didn't even really know who actually killed those three people when they started bombing. They still don't know.

Re:really? So Hamas is now a tech war machine?

[ericloewe]

a) There is no real doubt.
b) There's the little matter of the rockets being fired...

Re:really? So Hamas is now a tech war machine?

[physicsphairy]

You make it sound like Israel's response to the murders was to start randomly bombing people. Israel's response to the kidnapping was to start making arrests and restricting access to Gaza as they searched for the kidnapped teenagers. Hamas started firing rockets. Israel retaliated with air strikes. By the time the bodies were found, the conflict was already in motion.

Re:really? So Hamas is now a tech war machine?

[Rockoon]

Israel's response to the kidnapping was to start making arrests and restricting access to Gaza

So they got the people that did it then? oh... they were arresting people that didnt do it? yeah...

What would the people in your county do if a government that didnt represent you were to go around "making arrests" and demanding "papers please" -- you should think about that awhile.

Re:really? So Hamas is now a tech war machine?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, first it was revealed they knew during the operation "brother keeper" that the teens were dead. Also one of the "teens" were a military sniper, and all of them belonged to a military yeshiva (something like a religious college) in an illegal settlement in a military zone in an occupied area. During the operation "brother keeper" more than 800 palestinians were randomly arrested and/or held hostage to get their relatives to give up. Yes, in Israel the government can take your brother, sister, father, mother, cousin hostage to force you to give in to authorities, still not considered apartheid by israeli supporters. At least 9 palestinians were killed almost all teens and a few kids.

No evidence point to it being a palestinian behind the kidnapping and killing of those teens and the crime is now investigated by israeli police as they suspect it had to do with drugs.

Re:really? So Hamas is now a tech war machine?

[EuclideanSilence]

You make it sound like Israel's response to the murders was to start randomly bombing people. Israel's response to the kidnapping was to start making arrests and restricting access to Gaza as they searched for the kidnapped teenagers. Hamas started firing rockets. Israel retaliated with air strikes. By the time the bodies were found, the conflict was already in motion.

God, I wish Israel and Hamas would just stop fighting and admit they love each other and get laid with each other already. The tsundere teasing was cute at first but now it's just getting to be old news.

Re:really? So Hamas is now a tech war machine?

[NewYork]

Sounds like https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wik...

Re:really? So Hamas is now a tech war machine?

[Anonymous Coward]

FACT: out of 100 idiots, only ONE is normal human with normal IQ.
Now to your "...oh...pleeeeaaase"
FYI...did you know that HAMAS was firing rockets on Israel every day for 13 years ???? hmmm, of course you didn't know. Because WHO cares!!!
Now, you suddenly thought that because of three killed teenagers all started ??? NO, but it added to the list of reasons.
Don't you think SmartAss, that if Mexico was firing rockets on Texas, USA would keep silent for 13 years ???
Back to teenagers...they were killed by ARAB TERRORIST, from Hamas, or Islamic Jihad... WE know who did this, not specifically but we know they were terrorists.
But it wasn't really a reason to go into the shit-hole called gaza.
Another thing smart boy, did you see the tunnels these scumbags built ? over 30 of them, all to attack Israel.
TOO bad Gaza wasn't erased from the face of the earth. NEXT TIME it will.
To shut your f.. mouth, I want to remind you about f... american terrorism around the world. 1945 - two a-bombs instantly kill 1 million japanese. Was a reason why they did it ? NOT a smallest one. WWII was WON by Russian Army, not by "heroic" american hollywood army.
VIETNAM - again, AGENT ORANGE dropped on poor vietnamese. 1 million killed, and one more million after that...
do you want me to continue smart boy ???

Hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess we now know who is running slashdot.

Hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess we know now who is behind slashdot.

Yeah, sure, youbetcha!

[mark_reh]

"Anyone who thinks they have dozens of people sitting next to launchers firing rockets each time there is a barrage is mistaken,"

So let me see if I understand what you're saying: A bunch of guys who are at war set up a rocket launcher with a timer, then go away leaving it unguarded so that anyone can walk up to it and, oh, I don't know, shut it off, blow it up, steal it, etc.?

Gimme a break.

Re:Yeah, sure, youbetcha!

[Anonymous Coward]

The locals are guarding it for them. And they are not only timers. Remote control weapons are not that uncommon anyway. And you are shooting at targets dozens of miles away anyway, the target observers should do the targeting and firing anyway, from remote target observation posts.

Re:Yeah, sure, youbetcha!

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you under the impression that the setup is there for weeks at a time? It's probably a set-it-up, spend 5 minutes getting away before it starts launching, type of affair. Once the ammo supply is used up, which probably doesn't take too long, there's nothing left worth stealing or shutting off.

Plus if you don't want people messing with your stuff in times of war, you booby-trap it. Even if you don't do that for all of them, if enough people even think you might have done that, they won't touch the stuff by hand.

Re:Yeah, sure, youbetcha!

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you retarded? They're on egg timers since almost the start of intefada.

Unless you lack any kind of self-preservation you won't go anywhere near those launchers because:
1) Sniper fire
2) Whistleblowers if you're a palestinian trying to disarm
3) Israeli forces might put a shell in the area after launch is detected.

Re:Yeah, sure, youbetcha!

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure they are. They rent rooms from regular Gazans and there is plenty of photographic evidence of the hydraulic launchers buried in the ground.
Here's an example:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-pNw5GC9MnEQ/UtGuOayw-yI/AAAAAAABhhQ/WB4qQlgJuXQ/s1600/Hamas+Rocket+Battery+inside+residential+building.png

Re:Yeah, sure, youbetcha!

[mark_reh]

If that thing is what you claim, would anyone in their right mind continue to live anywhere near it?
I don't care about jobs, businesses, family, etc., if something like that is anywhere near me I get myself and family the f**k away from it as fast as I can. Anyone who doesn't is just plain nuts.

Re:Yeah, sure, youbetcha!

[mark_reh]

The locals are being used a human shields ferchrissakes. Are they nuts enough to actually guard the missile launcher that is going to make them a target of Israeli attack?

Re:Yeah, sure, youbetcha!

[Anonymous Coward]

Or they're being threatened by the local authorities, who happen to be the same people that put a rocket in your house. Or there is nowhere to go because the entire province is threatened the same way and both Israel and Egypt have locked down the borders to keep the local authorities from sending weapons/personnel to attack them directly.

The people in the Gaza strip are Hamas' hostages, plain and simple. And because Israel and Egypt can't afford to risk homicidal maniacs getting across the borders the people in Gaza are also essentially prisoners. There is nowhere to go, nowhere to hide, and no one to appeal to to get a room without an explosive basement. Hamas is just plain nuts.

Re:Yeah, sure, youbetcha!

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's an example:

if something like that is anywhere near me I get myself and family the f**k away from it as fast as I can.

That thing looks pretty covert and easily hidable (it looks like that cover folds down to be flush with the ground). Brush some dust over it and you couldn't even see it, especially if it was in someone's yard behind a cinderblock wall, as it appears to be. You probably wouldn't know it was anywhere near you until it started firing rockets, and by then it's too late; return fire is on it's way.

Re:Yeah, sure, youbetcha!

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone who doesn't is just plain nuts.

. . .and you've just hit on the root of the matter.

Re:Yeah, sure, youbetcha!

[Swave An deBwoner]

Interesting photo. I think that the original was from this Iranian website, near the bottom of the article, which makes clear that it's Iran that is fighting the war in Gaza by (Gazan civilian) proxy:

http://www.tabnak.ir/fa/news/364939/%D8%A7%D8%B2-%D8%B1%D8%A7%DA%A9%D8%AA%E2%80%8C%D9%87%D8%A7%DB%8C-%D8%AD%D8%B2%D8%A8%E2%80%8C%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%84%D9%87-%D8%AA%D8%A7-%D9%85%D9%88%D8%B4%DA%A9%E2%80%8C%D9%87%D8%A7%DB%8C-%D8%B3%D9%BE%D8%A7%D9%87

Stefan Molyneux's YouTube Video

[Anonymous Coward]

"The Truth About Israel and Palestine": http://youtu.be/iKzlh9kN4HI

Qatar is in an arms race with Saudi Arabia, What?

[SpzToid]

The summary says Qatar is worried of being attacked and overtaken in a technological arms race, by Saudi Arabia. Really? Since when?

From TFA:

Politics is behind Qatar’s willingness to pay for Hamas’ cyber-system. The Saudis believe that Qatar is behind efforts to unseat the Saudi royal family — using social media and the Al-Jazeera satellite channel — and Riyadh earlier this year recalled its ambassador to Doha, after he refused to pledge that it would “not interfere in others’ internal affairs,” according to Eli Aviad, who formerly headed Israel’s Economic Liaison office in Qatar.

I'd like something a little more substantive to back this up. The paragraph concludes:

While they are primarily interested in cyber self-defense, Aviad said, they are also interested in assisting their Muslim Brotherhood allies — and hence their willingness to fund the Hamas terror program. Hamas is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood.

Sorry, I gotta take any news value coming from TFA with a chunk of salt.

Sources?

[wombatmobile]

The sole source of information for the article is "Aviad Dadon of Israeli cyber-security firm AdoreGroup." Is that an independent source?

What do most Americans know about the background to the Israel Palestinian conflict, which has been going for 67 years?

Re:Sources?

[mpe]

What do most Americans know about the background to the Israel Palestinian conflict, which has been going for 67 years?

That's as long as it could have gone on for. Considering Israel didn't exist prior to 1948. Though Zionist terrorist groups appear to have been active since the 1920's

Re:Sources?

[rmdingler]

Don't stop me if you think you've heard this one before.

There's a lady walking down the beach who finds a bottle, rubs it, and out pops a genie. "I know how this goes," she exclaims, "I get three wishes."

"I'm afraid not, young lady. Due to inflationary constraints, you will only be afforded a single wish."

Without hesitation, the woman pulls out a map of the Middle East to show the previously incarcerated genie. "I would like for there to be peace in this part of the World."

The Genie pauses to scratch his chin. "These people have been at war for a very long time. I'm a highly skilled genie, but I'm not sure even I could pull that off. Is there something else I could do for you?"

"Okay then," replies the young maiden, "I would like you to find me the man of my dreams. He must be sweet, honorable, enjoy shopping with me, never lie or cheat, be a perfect father for our beautiful children, and rather spend time with me than do anything else. He should be brave and sensitive, love my cat..."

"Hold it right there," says the genie, "Let me see that map again."

Re:Sources?

[NoKaOi]

The sole source of information for the article is "Aviad Dadon of Israeli cyber-security firm AdoreGroup." Is that an independent source?

Of course. As we have seen here in the US, heads of intelligence organizations never lie. Even more so, heads of a corporation with a financial interest in conflict. Nope, they would never lie in a case like that to justify to a country's citizens a government giving it tons of money. Nope, it's totally 100% reliable.

Re:Sources?

[oldCoder]

There are no independent sources. I suppose we could imagine a super news organization that ran its own spy network. But on this planet, media get their information, especially on military matters, from the interested parties.

Summmary seems very one sided

[grahamsaa]

Sure, I'm willing to believe that Hamas has some technology behind what they're doing, but it surely can't be anywhere near as advanced as what the IDF has. The Israel / Hamas conflict is about as mismatched as it would be if the US went to war with Bolivia. I'm sure if that happened, some people in the American press would point out that the Bolivians have rifles, while forgetting to mention that we have nuclear subs and airfraft carriers.

Re:Summmary seems very one sided

[mjwalshe]

yes its probably more cost-effective to make more crude rockets than to try and engage in a tech arms race with Israel - there also the q how tech savvy is the average Hamas fighter and would it make sense to risk those you do have at the front line when you can get any activist to carry a few rockets and fire them off via a command wire.

Re:Summmary seems very one sided

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean like the US attacked Grenada, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Korea, etc. you know. Those Bolivia equivalents.

Re:Summmary seems very one sided

[Anonymous Coward]

So Israel is at fault because they are too backwards and uncivilized to engage in any technological development of their own? Israel built a country by the sweat of the Jewish people. The Palestinians chose barbarism and now they're getting what they deserve.

Re:Summmary seems very one sided

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't need very sophisticated weapons if accuracy and targeting is not of priority. Just fire randomly at any population centers of Israel will get the result Hamas wants. You should be able to do that with your eyes closed, with not information about deployment of anything.

Re:Summmary seems very one sided

[Anonymous Coward]

Last time I looked, the US government (built by our sweat, only 2% Jewish) is the one that has been building the country of Israel since its creation. If you think Palestinian women and babies deserve to be killed by Israel / US rockets, then you are one of the sick fucks that the world would be much better off without.

Re:Summmary seems very one sided

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, I'm willing to believe that Hamas has some technology behind what they're doing, but it surely can't be anywhere near as advanced as what the IDF has. The Israel / Hamas conflict is about as mismatched as it would be if the US went to war with Bolivia. I'm sure if that happened, some people in the American press would point out that the Bolivians have rifles, while forgetting to mention that we have nuclear subs and airfraft carriers.

It would definitely be one sided with nuclear subs and aircraft carriers... Especially since Bolivia is a land locked country. The Americans won't even see it coming!

Re:Summmary seems very one sided

[oldCoder]

And if that Bolivia was between Mexico and the US, and kept on sending rockets, suicide bombers, and kidnappers, America would quickly get completely fed up and blast 'em to smithereens. Instead of 1700 dead there'd be 17,000. Or more. Arguments over news reporting would be a footnote.

Re:Summmary seems very one sided

[Anonymous Coward]

So you think that Hamas only has the right to defend itself against the occupation if it has billions of dollars for the latest guided missiles? Hamas has unguided projectiles and hardly ever kills a civilian. Israel has guided missiles which strike target with pin-point accuracy, and have killed thousands of civilian. So tehll us again who it is that is successfully targeting civilians.

Re:Summmary seems very one sided

[dave420]

Pointing out that X is greater than Y does next to nothing to show how small Y is. Surely you know that, right?

Re:Summmary seems very one sided

[Anonymous Coward]

Wouldnt be the first time Urban myth says they didnt see the light house either.

Re:Summmary seems very one sided

[TwoEyedJack]

You misunderstand Hamas' objectives. Their weaponry is perfectly suited for their objective, which is to produce corpses of Palestinian non-combatants, preferably children, to parade around for the benefit of the gullible international press.

Terrorists in the 20th century

[MRe_nl]

The first wide spread use of the word "terrorist" in mass-media afaik is in German second world war propaganda to describe the Soviet partisans on the Eastern front.
Every European with an inkling of historical knowledge is going to look at any state calling any group "terrorists" with at least a modicum of suspicion.

As an aside, does anyone else see some similarities in the current situation in the West-bank/Gaza and the Jewish uprising in the ghetto of Warsaw?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M...

Re:Terrorists in the 20th century

[Bing Tsher E]

In the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, an outside agent like Quatar wasn't shipping in large volumes of high technology, and the Ghetto residents weren't firing rockets out at civillian areas of Warsaw. When they took an offensive at all, it was at German military forces.

Re:Terrorists in the 20th century

[MRe_nl]

All true, I was thinking more of general tactics, the extensive tunneling ( although I think Warsaw had a more extensive sewer system ), the "nothing to lose"strategy, fighting at impossible odds in a relatively small walled area etc

Poor Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed, they're killing Palestinians and doing the same propaganda they always do, to pretend they are a credible threat that justifies the genocide.

Lets not kid ourselves, Gaza's problems are the invasion of settlers from Israel, and what Israel is doing is nothing but murder.

Re:Poor Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

There are no settlers in Gaza. Israel pulled out completely from Gaza in 2005, at which point it decended into chaos. Time to rethink your position, I guess.

Re:Poor Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

Gaza's problem is the existence of Gazans. If the Arabs didn't move a bunch of transients there in 1948 in an attempt to block the Jewish homeland, then this problem wouldn't even exist. The Arabs stuck them there as sacrificial pawns. So, they're being sacrificed. The Arabs are at fault for this and have been from the very start.

Re:Poor Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

There are no settlers in Gaza.

This conflict didn't start in Gaza. It started in the West Bank, with the murder of three teenage settlers. Then Israel accused Hamas of the murder (based on no evidence whatsoever) and proceeded to arrest hundreds of people. Only then did the conflict spread to Gaza.

Re:Poor Israel

[damienl451]

The amazing thing about propagandists is that one day they'll tell us how great Gaza is and how Palestinians are all liars who want to make it sound like they have it bad (http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.567496). Then the next they'll come and tell us that Gaza has been chaotic since 2005, presumable because Palestinians are too dumb for self-rule. Plus you have to define 'pulled out completely'. It seems to me that the IDF has been reentering Gaza periodically since 2005 and that Israel still maintains a large degree of control over what and who gets to enter and leave Gaza. They just realized that it was much easier to cordon off the area and do some "grass mowing" (seriously, that's how they refer to it) from time to time, rather than directly maintain occupation in the midst of a hostile population and widespread international condemnation.

Re:Poor Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

This conflict started in Basel Switzerland when the First Zionist Congress assembled in 1897 and decided to turn Palestine into a Jewish State.

Re:Poor Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

Also, fuck Lord Balfour!

Re:Poor Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

Based on no evidence whatsoever except for:
* 2 Hamas member ex-cons go missing from home on the same day the boys are kidnapped and murdered
* The 3 bodies are found concealed under some rocks and foliage in a field belonging to one of the families.

So, yes, apart from the evidence, no evidence.

I hope we can agree that:
1) the people that picked up the boys were not really going to offer them a ride home
2) the Israel security services don't murder their own citizens

Re:Poor Israel

[Sarius64]

There never was a country of Palestine. Go kill the Jordanians that slaughtered the rebellious "Palestinians" back when they were called Trans-Jordanians.

Re:Poor Israel

[Sarius64]

Well they sure as hell let all their "leaders" steal the aid money from around the world and stuff it into Swiss banks. Oh, wait, I forget the Arafat made billions of dollars from his Coca-Cola bottling plant in Ramallah.

Re: Poor Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

That's strange because the conservative posts I read from Israeli media talk about how the Jews came and inhabited a vacant lend that was unused and ripe for the picking

Re:Poor Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

This conflict started in 70AD when the Romans began to forceably eject Jews from Israel.

Re:Poor Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

1. Disappear two Hamas members.
2. Kidnap and kill two Israelis and leave their bodies somewhere suggestive.
3. "Find" bodies.
4. Rejoice at pretext to decimate the population of Palestine and push the borders back further.

Israel's tactics are straight out of Vizzini's Guide to Starting A War.

Re:Poor Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

Correct. The Hamas rocket strategy sucks, militarized Hamas is not good for Gaza, they are getting hammered for little to no gain other than some temporary political respite in Gaza. But can they be blamed for firing rockets at Israel after they arrested members and blew up their homes in the process? Last time I check even Israel now admits that Hamas was not behind the 3 killings that started the conflict. The facts undercut a lot of recent talking points from Netanyahu, Ron Dermer, and others.

Re:Poor Israel

[murdocj]

Uh, yes, when Hamas fires rockets into Israel (which I think you can safely consider an act of war) Israel does "re-enter" Gaza. I suppose you'd be happy if those darned Jews just took it as victims, like the good old days. Sorry, those days are over.

Re:Poor Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

The family owned land in a settlement? Or you mean on the family land stolen by the settlers? Because the teens were found close to where they were kidnapped (one of the teens a military sniper) in a settlement and israeli controlled area. Then people going missing isn't evidence of their guilt. If I were visiting someone and then all of a sudden israelis were starting to storm west bank rearresting everyone they released and then some more I wouldn't be returning home too.

Re: Poor Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, in that case, the people who did this are dead now anyway, so what do we do then?

Re: Poor Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

In this particular case it seems less likely, but in general, governments sacrificing some of their own citizens to get what they want? It happens. Ben-Gurion "If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel."

Re: Poor Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

Who said this? "Regarding the Galilee, Mr. [Moshe] Sharett already told you that about 100,000 Arabs still now live in the pocket of Galilee. Let us assume that a war breaks out. Then we will be able to cleanse the entire area of Central Galilee, including all its refugees, in one stroke. In this context let me mention some mediators who offered to give us the Galilee without war. What they meant was the populated Galilee. They didnâ(TM)t offer us the empty Galilee, which we could have only by means of a war. Therefore if a war is extended to cover the whole of Palestine, our greatest gain will be the Galilee. It is because without any special military effort which might imperil other fronts, only by using the troops already assigned for the task, we could accomplish our aim of cleansing the Galilee."

Re:Poor Israel

[segedunum]

Ahhhh, yes, the pesky subject of 'who fired what' first. I'm pretty sure that dealing with rocket attacks, which miraculously start to increase whenever Israel conducts a 'military' operation, does not justify the genocide of innocent civilians and children.

Israel needs to be careful and Jews everywhere need to reject this otherwise we'll end up with the kind of anti-Semitism we really don't want.

Re:Poor Israel

[halivar]

I feel like there's a Billy Joel song here...

Re:Poor Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

cool, lets just make stuff up now?

Re:Poor Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

Wrong. The Balfour Declaration of 1917 explicitly referred to Palestine and the "existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine" and the "British Mandate for Palestine and the Transjordan" of 1922 explicitly made the distinction between Palestine and Transjordan:

"His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country"

"The mandate document formalised the creation of two British protectorates - Palestine, to include a national home for the Jewish people, under direct British rule, and Transjordan, an Emirate governed semi-autonomously from Britain under the rule of the Hashemite family."

Re:Poor Israel

[Sarius64]

Still not a country, only a concept. Anytime you wish to cough up government credentials from the country of Palestine, please do. In the meantime, stop dreaming about things that don't exist. Oh, BTW, how did that Transjordan thing work out for the "Palestinians"? Yeah.

Re:Poor Israel

[Rich0]

Ahhhh, yes, the pesky subject of 'who fired what' first. I'm pretty sure that dealing with rocket attacks, which miraculously start to increase whenever Israel conducts a 'military' operation, does not justify the genocide of innocent civilians and children.

This thing is a mess on both sides, but how can you call shells that land on a school "genocide" and not apply the same label to rockets fired on Israeli cities?

Genocide is the systematic extinction of people on the basis of some trait like race. I can't imagine that too many Israelis live in Gaza, so if they really wanted to do Genocide they'd just bombard the whole place until nothing was moving.

This is a tit-for-tat artillery war between two powers using weapons that have poor accuracy and basically just kill whoever is standing by where they land. The only real difference is that the Israelis are better at shooting down rockets than Hamas is at shooting down shells.

Re:Poor Israel

[Ottibus]

1. Disappear two Hamas members.
2. Kidnap and kill two Israelis and leave their bodies somewhere suggestive.
3. "Find" bodies.
4. Rejoice at pretext to decimate the population of Palestine and push the borders back further.

You really think that Israel would kill their own citizens and blame Hamas just so that they can grab some land that they pulled out of a few years ago?

I prefer the version where Israel is trying to stop the palestians attacking Israel and targetting civilians with rockets (which happens to be a war crime). In fact Israel's behaviour is best explained by them wanting peace and Hamas's behaviour is best explained by them wanting to destroy Israel. And by amazing coincidence that is exactly what the two side say they are trying to do.

Re: Poor Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

There were Jewish people there well before 1948.

Birds of a feather....

[Anonymous Coward]

I like how Muslims killing people in any other part of the world is met with switch condemnation and in some cases even military response [b]except[/b] when it happens to be Jews that they are trying to kill. Of course in this particular case, their adversary can and is handily crushing them, so suddenly that makes them victims somehow. It's just fucking madness. STOP the Muslim propaganda. These savage people must be dealt with as many times as it is required.

NO MORE APPEASEMENT!

Re:Birds of a feather....

[Anonymous Coward]

We aren't concerned with the opinions of the world. Yes, we're handily crushing them. We don't give a fuck what the world has to say about it. We will rid Israel of them, and when we're done we'll get started on the rest of the world.

Re:Birds of a feather....

[Anonymous Coward]

This posting has been sponsored by Hamas.

Three strikes

[PPH]

Your ISP catches you stealing three videos or launching three rockets and you get cut off. Its right there in your Terms Of Service.

Cloud-based, probably wireless command an control systems are pretty esy to rednedr useless by a technologically advanced enemy like Israel. Heck, just fire up a cell phone jammer.

Re:Three strikes

[Anonymous Coward]

cloud based does sound impressive when you consider the whole place got no electricity, and any wifi signal would likely get targeted pretty quickly.

The just bombed a school

[Anonymous Coward]

It's more sickening when you realize they deliberately targetted the school Israel just bombed. There would be a meeting where that school would be chosen, the coordinates entered and the missile launched, and at the meeting they'd have their propaganda unit there to plan the cover-up.

They're just murderers with political clout, nothing else.

Re:The just bombed a school

[Dare nMc]

>deliberately targetted the school Israel just bombed.

I am not a fan of Israel, but that was the one for me as well. When you here the propaganda from the Pro-gaza/hamas reporters. They acknowledge that Hamas put a rocket launcher at the UN school when UN security was no longer present and that the students were hidden in the shadows from satellite imagery. So they were able to force Gaza parents (or they voluntarily sacrificed their children) to place their students into a school stacked up next to a rocket launcher, all for a PR blitz to show how Israel "targeted" a school. When you stack up children next to your military equipment, thinking it is a no lose situation, either your children protect the rocket launcher, or the enemy kills your children and you are happy to be able to use them for PR, it is clear Hamas has no morals. Now I realize this is Hamas doing this, not all of those in Gaza, but they are overwhelmingly OK with Hamas doing this on their behalf.

Re:The just bombed a school

[dovf]

Also check-out this analysis of the "massacre" at Shijaiyah (warning: some of the content is pretty graphic). While I'm not convinced that everything in the analysis is 100% correct, the basic gist seems pretty indisputable...

Re:The just bombed a school

[Anonymous Coward]

Now I realize this is Hamas doing this, not all of those in Gaza, but they are overwhelmingly OK with Hamas doing this on their behalf.

If they're not they get killed; Look what happened to the Fatah police men. The children where innocent and Israel had the ability to land in helicopters and enter the school with special forces. They chose to blow it up instead. I think Hamas are war criminals, but I think who ever ordered and took part in that attack are as well.

Re:The just bombed a school

[Anonymous Coward]

>The children where innocent and Israel had the ability to land in helicopters and enter the school with special forces.

Are you seriously saying that to take out a missile, that you fly a helicopter full of special forces into the missile to take it out?

The children may be innocent, but their parents are not. I really don't think the children are so dumb that they don't realize standing next to a missile is a safe location.

In the long run Israel has allot to answer for on why Hamas is there in the first place. I don't know enough of the history of this situation to really know why Israel did so much, that is seams so wrong in the past. But how they are handling Hamas currently, is not in my opinion, anywhere out of proportion to what is needed for their defense.

Re:The just bombed a school

[Anonymous Coward]

" I really don't think the children are so dumb that they don't realize standing next to a missile is a safe location."

so now its ok to make war on children because by that side both sides are guilty The Palestinian child for not holding their parents accountable for rockets etc and the Israeli children for not stopping the settlements etc.

Ive heard of 'sins of the fathers' but really these Abrahamic religions take it to a new level.

Re:The just bombed a school

[Anonymous Coward]

> so now its ok to make war on children

It is not, and I agree that those who bring children into the war are barbarians who should be slaughtered. On one side you have Hamas/People of Gaza pushing their kids into the war by hiding them in the shadows next to a missile hoping they get killed. On the other you have Israel looking at satellite images, seeing that the area is clear of children (not knowing they are being hidden next to the missile on purpose) and blowing up a missile intended to kill innocent people in Israel (not all people in Israel are innocent, but the desire of the Hamas missile is to kill all, innocent and otherwise, in Israel.) So yes, I do feel 100% of the blame for the deaths of those children is on Hamas. Now much of the blame for Hamas being so popular is on Israel, so like I said, their is blood on the hands of Israel, but it is slight compared to the parents of those children, and those that pushed the children into the war.

Re:The just bombed a school

[TwoEyedJack]

Hamas is in charge there because in free and fair elections they were overwhelmingly voted in by the Palestinians who knew full well that they are a terrorist organization.

Bad Path

[JimSadler]

I do feel that the Arabs are getting a raw deal in relation to the west and Israel there needs to be some really deep thinking going on. For example it is just dandy to have a timer and an auto launch ability on these small missiles but where does it lead? If one finds that most often the hostiles are not near the launch site the launch site will still be hit hard and probably some other place, perhaps randomly selected, in hope of getting the point across. Naturally hatred will result and it may be that large area saturation bombing starts to take place. And if that level of strike does not work the US and Israel are faced with two choices. One is pulling out and letting the region descend into total chaos and violence. The other more drastic choice is total war and the elimination of the regions existence. Considering the military history of the US as well as the ability and the readily available weaponry this conflict could end when places such as Palestine are simply exterminated. The suicide bomber like tactics are not something well addressed by a conventional military as uniforms are not used. But we are very, very good at things like carpet bombing or fire bombing major cities. I am suggesting that the terror tactics can never lead to any victory unless the US somehow decides it is OK to lose the region which is very unlikely.

And

[Anonymous Coward]

wouldn't it be a hoot if Hamas was the creation of Israel?

The real truth about "high tech" weapons in Gaza..

[Anonymous Coward]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N6ZLcoSnlU&list=UUNpAwV6GlFst1x3jmqCgYbQ

Oh, dear god, please do shut up.

[Anonymous Coward]

How the hell did this piece of unsubstantiated propagandic crap make it into the Slashdot feed?

Straight from a "reliable" Israeli source, no less.

How about this one?

Israeli military announce they will bomb al-Shifa hospital in Gaza

The difference between those two stories? The second one is probably true, and it shows the true face of this conflict.

Also, please remember who set up Hamas in the first place. (Hint: It wasn't Palestine.)

In the cloud!

[whois]

"networked, cloud-based launching software provided by Qatar which can set off a rocket from any distance, and set them to go off at a specific time, using timers"

What's the difference between this and cell-phone activated stuff they've been using for years? (source: any war movie featuring IEDs)

It's on the Internet.. and they've found out how to use TIME CLOCKS!?

Re:In the cloud!

[Anonymous Coward]

Cell phone systems are more easily blocked and monitored than random traffic obviously.

Cyber-warfare and Booby traps in tunnels

[Anonymous Coward]

What is the connection between cyber-warfare and booby traps in tunnels? Is there any?

Re:Cyber-warfare and Booby traps in tunnels

[Anonymous Coward]

What is the connection between cyber-warfare and booby traps in tunnels? Is there any?

Well I've been trapped looking at boobies on the internet, maybe its an antiporn thing?

Billions of pesos?

[future assassin]

What kinds of utter BS propaganda is this?

Did you know

>>The military announced early Sunday that 23-year-old Hadar Goldin of the Givati infantry brigade had been killed in battle on Friday.

So they bombed away and killed 35+ Palestinians on a lie. Buddy wasn't kidanpped he was killed in battle.

Re:Billions of pesos?

[Anonymous Coward]

He was killed, and his body stolen, in a sneak attack shortly after the 'cease fire' went into effect. Hezbollah, in previous conflicts, has tried stealing bodies and claiming they have live hostages. What Israel announced was that Goldin was DEAD as opposed to kidnapped. The fact that Hamas broke the cease fire is unchanged.

Re:Billions of pesos?

[Anonymous Coward]

They broke the cease-fire on a lie and blamed the palestinian resistance. And what kind of cease-fire is it when the palestinian resistance is supposed to cease fire while israeli forces can continue operate. And in case they get into a skirmish, the other side is accused to break the cease fire. WTF. But I guess, if you are the stronger party you set the rules...where is the world to mediate?

Re:Billions of pesos?

[Anonymous Coward]

Bullshit, israeli media reported that he was killed in action during a FIREFIGHT. At what time, honestly no one can say, palestinian resistance say it was before cease-fire, which is quite possible considering there were reports of firefighting at that time as the israeli ground troops positioned themselves there under cover of heavy shelling.

Re:Billions of pesos?

[Anonymous Coward]

Bullshit, israeli media reported that he was killed in action during a FIREFIGHT.

Which was started when Hamas terrorists attacked the Israeli patrol, starting with a suicide bomber coming out of a nearby tunnel and detonating? Are you seriously claiming that the Israeli patrol started the firefight? Hamas isn't even claiming that, they seemed to actually be proud/bragging that they had broken the ceasefire this way.

At what time, honestly no one can say, palestinian resistance say it was before cease-fire, which is quite possible considering there were reports of firefighting at that time as the israeli ground troops positioned themselves there under cover of heavy shelling.

Do you think no one there has watches? They know exactly what time this happened. Just because it doesn't fit with the narrative that you want to believe doesn't mean that nobody knows what happened.

Re:Billions of pesos?

[Anonymous Coward]

Buddy wasn't kidanpped he was killed in battle.

Just wanted to add, when a soldier is taken during a battle, it's not kidnapping, it's capturing. As a result, the soldier becomes PoW.

As a side note, check the Hannbibal Directive. It's very possible they have intentionally killed their own soldier, to avoid giving Hamas an advantage. Carpeting the area with bombs means the captured soldier had very little chance for survival.

Re:Billions of pesos?

[Swave An deBwoner]

You posit "killed their own soldier" and shore up that bogus claim by a Wikipedia article that specifically, in the second paragraph no less, states:

It allows commanders to take whatever action is necessary, including endangering the life of an abducted soldier, to foil the abduction. However it does not allow for a soldier to be killed in order to prevent his abduction, according to the IDF chief of staff, Benny Gantz.[1]

Slashver-ganda?

[Guppy06]

Not even a week ago: Gaza's Only Power Plant Knocked Offline

Hamas can't even power their social media campaign (i.e. their lifeblood) continuously, but we're supposed to believe they can coordinate rocket fire over the same internet while also deploying Aperture science into their tunnels?

And this from an unnamed IDF contractor talking to a media outlet that has quite literally called for the genocide of Palestinians?

Good job, guys.

Hamas are Terrorists

[ollybee]

History suggests this would not be the case. After the 2012 ceasefire no rockets were fired at Israel for 3 months, not one, yet Israel continued to attacked Gaza with 287 documented vioations.

Spanish Civil War for the cyber age

[Anonymous Coward]

Putting new technology and strategies to the test in a crucible with absolute consequences.

What "tunnels" are you talking about?

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, you mean the NON-EXISTENT "tunnels" which the Jew-media came up with. Rather like the 'gas chambers' which the 'evil Nazis' conveniently 'destroyed' before the end of WW2, right? And presumably if the Jew media tells you that the 'evil Nazis' had 4,000 spaceships which they 'destroyed' before the end of WW2, you'd believe that too?
The Palestinians have been corralled into the biggest open air prison on Earth, by stinking, rat-faced, arrogant, lying, nation-wrecking Jews, who think that the entire world belongs to THEM, and them alone, and everybody else on Earth is their 'cattle', to do their bidding. Where have you been?

Re:What "tunnels" are you talking about?

[Anonymous Coward]

The gas chambers aren't destroyed. I was standing in them during a mandatory school trip in the 90s. You could see them yourself if your hate wouldn't blind you and your ignorance and stupidity wouldn't make it impossible for you to get outside of your tiny twisted world.

The gas chambers exist, just like the Holocaust happened and the tunnels are existing.

Re:What "tunnels" are you talking about?

[Anonymous Coward]

You can go and have a look at Auschwitz if you like. They converted the gas chamber to an air shelter but there are more than enough remains and other evidence. For instance all the ovens.
I hate what Israel is doing to the Palestinians but I have no doubt about what the Nazis where doing and it was a barely conceivable evil. Talk with the people involved in the war, I have (although there are fewer and fewer still living). Incidentally it wasn't just the Jewish people they massacred, but gypsies, & the physically and mentally disabled as well. There where probably even more that I don't know of.

Re:What "tunnels" are you talking about?

[Anonymous Coward]

Gays were mass murdered as well.

Qatar

[fustakrakich]

location of U.S. Central Command’s Forward Headquarters and the Combined Air Operations Center.

Let's stop pretending here, okay? Just like with Iran/Iraq, you make more money when you play both sides.

Propaganda

[biodata]

Mod this propaganda.

But Quatar is our friend

[wiredlogic]

That won't stop us from sucking Quatari dick to maintain access to their ports. Besides, it never hurts to be the arms dealer in a proxy war.

Re:The real truth about "high tech" weapons in Gaz

[Anonymous Coward]

Good, that video's posted by David Duke. I know when I want an unbiased viewpoint of a conflict fueled by ethnic hatred, I'm going to ask the former grand wizard of the KKK, and avowed white nationalist and white supremacist what he thinks of the situation.

I'm sure he'll give a factual, objective response.

terrorism is in the eye of the beholder

[Anonymous Coward]

can anyone deny that the state of Israel only exists because of terrorism?
A 20 year long battle of murder, mutilation, abduction, ransom, extortion and simple theft using bombs, mines, booby traps and snipers created Israel by stealing and yes that is the right word since Palestine was only 6% owned by Jews in 1946, until the Brits made clear they were going to hand the Arab's land to the invaders, land belonging to Arabs
The Jews did not inherit Palestine. You cannot inherit from your biblical ancestors what your great grandfather did not own
and thus, whatever force Hamas uses in retaliation for the aerial bombardment of Apartment buildings is justified in both law and morality.
Why is the State of Israel complaining that they are suffering from the very tactics they initiated?
If there is to be peace, the state of Israel must be dissolved and the land returned to the Arab people.
I invite the Russian Jews who rule and always have ruled the ersatz state of Israel to return to their homeland..in Russia.

Re:terrorism is in the eye of the beholder

[Anonymous Coward]

"can anyone deny that the state of Israel only exists because of terrorism?"

Yes. Any one can with the slightest knowledge of history.

"A 20 year long battle of murder, mutilation, abduction, ransom, extortion and simple theft using bombs, mines, booby traps and snipers created Israel"

Absolute bullshit. The one who were aggressive from the beginning were the arabs.

"until the Brits "

More nonsense. It was a resolution by the UN. AKA the world.

"The Jews did not inherit Palestine."

Neither did the Arabs who called themselves Palestinians since the 60s as a tool of propaganda.

"whatever force Hamas uses in retaliation for the aerial bombardment of Apartment buildings is justified in both law and morality."

Spoken like a true Hamas asshole. Terrorism is never justified.

"Why is the State of Israel complaining that they are suffering from the very tactics they initiated?"

Because they didn't. 6 month after it's founding it was attacked for the first time by your arab buddies. And you lost. As always.

"If there is to be peace, the state of Israel must be dissolved and the land returned to the Arab people."

Try it. If there is to be peace get rid of all terrorists.

"I invite the Russian Jews who rule and always have ruled the ersatz state of Israel to return to their homeland..in Russia."

Except that not all Jews arel Russians. And the Jews is Israel are Israelites. Nothing else.

Now kill yourself.

PS : Russia was one of the first countries to recognise Israel as an independent country.

People sitting next to launchers?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Anyone who thinks they have dozens of people sitting next to launchers firing rockets each time there is a barrage is mistaken,"

Well, except for the civilians in the homes and schools surrounding the launch site who Hamas is using for human shields, that is.

omg bobby traps!

[Anonymous Coward]

God help anyone named bobby going through those tunnels!
Or are those English type bobbys?

Oh, it's Hamas they're killing...

[X.25]

Hamas seems to recruit children really early, these days.

Re: Oh, it's Hamas they're killing...

[Anonymous Coward]

They do.

http://youtube.com/results?q=hamas%20child%20recruit&sm=3

Re:Oh, it's Hamas they're killing...

[Anonymous Coward]

Hamas seems to recruit children really early, these days.

In fact, they do: https://www.google.ca/search?q=hamas+children&tbm=isch

Other reasons for the ongoing crime in Gaza &ndash

[Anonymous Coward]

“Every two years or so, the Israeli military attacks Gaza, attacks the Gaza Strip, and causes a lot of destruction. But right after each one of those attacks, there is a trade show in which Israeli weapon companies show their wares, show their technologies, and boast that these are the very technologies that have been used just now against Palestinians in Gaza." ...

http://failedevolution.blogspot.gr/2014/08/other-reasons-for-ongoing-crime-in-gaza.html

Comparison of amount of explosive used?

[Anonymous Coward]

Has anybody seen a comparison of the amount of explosives used by Israel v Palestinians?

I understand the war head on a Palestinian rocket is a few pounds. Say 5 pound. So 4000 rockets has a total explosives of 20000ib.

I have no idea of the size of the shells used by the Israel but one picture of an unexploded round appeared to be at least 6 feet long x 1 feet.

5 or 6 unexploded bombs would be all the explosives the Palestinians have used.

I am curious about this because you see scorecards on news sites with 4000 missiles vesus 4600 air strikes.

Re:Comparison of amount of explosive used?

[mtthwbrnd]

It is like watching a fight between a two year old girl and Mike Tyson in his prime. Not that Mike would fight a two year old girl (apologies to Mike Tyson).

Then the commentators say: Well, it is a pretty unfair fight here, the little girl has landed 3 punches on Tyson and Tyson has only landed one, straight to the face and full strength... we really need to ring the bell so that Tyson can rest a little here, he only got one punch compared to her three.

Its a simple issue.

[Anonymous Coward]

Odd to focus on some clever sensors in tunnels whilst ignoring the oddly fallible technology of one of the most advanced armies in the world whose bombs and soldiers can't distinguish between terrorists and kids in a school.

You know who certainly is not using any technology, the 250+ kids murdered in the last 26 days. Most of whom have been imprisoned in a large open air prison for the entirety of their short lives (by people who hate them but graciously allow them the minimal amount of food, water and medical attention).

Screw all those who kill kids and screw any attempt to rationalize such killings as being as a response to mere threats or due to the other side. It's simple, if you fire the weapon that kills civilians / kid(s) it is you that is the murdering bastard who hopefully will rot in hell/prison for warcrimes.

Stop the land-grab: Go Back to Germany/Russia

[Anonymous Coward]

There is a great reason that Albert Einstein declined becoming Isreal's 1st President. In his words, the state shouldn't exist and will cause conflict among the Arabs & millions nof Jews who had lived there together in peace for nhundreds of years. That it woulkdn't e long until the Isrealis became the Nazis of the land. EInstein didn't need a Physics degree to call this one on the money.

Tech vs Tech

[oldCoder]

As war becomes more Tech vs Tech, slight technical advantages can snowball into huge military advantages. Especially if you can modify the actions of your enemies systems in real-time.

Re:Qatar is in an arms race with Saudi Arabia, Wha

[oldCoder]

Just web search for 'Qatar vs Saudi Arabia' and you'll see over a billion results. Hot enough for you?

Wow, sensors in the tunnels

[Fencepost]

Some of the offices in the building I work in have "high-tech sensors" that tell them when the door opens inward by ringing a little bell. They're dangling pieces of metal that hit a momentary switch tied to a doorbell ringer. Are those the "high-tech" devices described in such detail in the article?

Re:The real truth about "high tech" weapons in Gaz

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no hate coming from his mouth. Only truth. Watch the video footage included if nothing else. Jews killing women and babies because they are not Jewish. That is what this conflict is about.

Re:Qatar is in an arms race with Saudi Arabia, Wha

[Anonymous Coward]

I did a Google search for 'united states vs united kingdom' and got over 1/4 billion hits. Does that mean there's a secret war between the two?

Disgusting title

[manu0601]

I know that will be bad for my karma but I find this stories' title disgusting.

Indeed there is a war between Israel and Hamas, but at the same time, there is the genocide of Palestinian People by Israel. Most of the ones who die are not Hamas fighters. Their only crime was to live in a territory Israel considers its own. Reducing the conflict to the fight between Israel and Hamas is a petty trick to hide the genocide.

Hamas are Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

Hamas fired its first rocket onto Israel 34 years after the occupation began, just saying.

The conflict according to Taco Cowboy

[mtthwbrnd]

There was a 100% Jewish population inhabiting Israel, a state which has existed from the beginning of the universe to present day. In the late 1800's, Hamas (a terrorist organisation which formed out of pure hatred for Jews and for no other reason) met in Basel and decided to create a Muslim state in the land of Israel. Hamas began a campaign of terror against the poorly armed and barely funded Jewish population who were isolated from the world due to anti-semitism in the US and Europe who have never given any funding or political support to them.

Somehow, the heroic and brave Jewish People managed to fend off the would-be usurpers of the Jewish land of Israel, fighting against the heavily armed Muslims: Jewish sling-shots against the Muslim F15's and Stealth Bombers. Unfortunately though, they had to concede small parcels of land, such as the Paradise City of Gaza (one of the wealthiest nations in the world with the best funded defence forces that money can buy and voted Best City To Live In last year) as Muslim areas in return for the peace that the peaceful peace loving Jewish People have always cherished so much.

All was peaceful for decades until, out of the blue a few weeks ago, the evil Hamas held a meeting with Satan and decided to hold a vote. All of the muslims in the world took part in the vote. The issue at hand was: Should we kidnap and murder 3 Jews, who are peacefully living in the Jewish land, where they have lived since the beginning of time, that we wish to steal from the Jews? Resoundingly the entire Muslim population (all of whom are evil) of the world, agreed: Go for it! It was a 100% turn out with a 100% YES vote. Even Muslim babies participated in the vote and are as equally responsible for the murder of the three Jews as the actual individuals who carried out the murder.

Because of the evil Muslims, the Jewish people are now forced to defend themselves and their land once again from the evil Muslims who have come once more to steal the Jewish land, where only Jews ever lived since the beginning of time. Unfortunately the evil Hamas have an overwhelming level of technological sophistication and it is looking as though the good guys, the Jews, who are completely isolated from outside funding due to the rampant anti-semitism in the US Congress and Senate, and are incapable of ever doing anything wrong, ever, might lose this military conflict.

Re:The conflict according to Taco Cowboy

[Anonymous Coward]

You left out the part about The Jews being God's chosen people (even though they murdered his only son). Father forgive them... they know what they do, but they are Jewish.

Einstein on Arabs/Jews

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually wrong!!! A reading of his book 'Ideas & Opinions' would reveal how stridently he campaigned for a Jewish state. He also was very critical of the Arabs opposing this proposal, pointing out how vast & underpopulated they were.

Einstein rejects Israel

[dcp2alpha]

EInstein rejected Israel for good reason. Albert related Zionists to Nazis. My God, the man was right!

Re:Einstein rejects Israel

[Sun]

Actually, he was a great Zionist supporter. What he rejected was an offer to be Israel's first president.

Shachar

cloud based as in water vapor?

[spectroman]

I wonder, how a highly sofisticated networked cloud-based launch system is able to function without electricity... if so , only on batteries? Maybe the palestinians, hamas and/or Qatar, should sell their technology, im pretty sure Elon Musk and others are quite interested on this super high tech system that works without infrastructure in place!

Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori

[denzacar]

I really don't think the children are so dumb that they don't realize standing next to a missile is a safe location.

Children are far, FAR easier to convince to do anything and to buy into any exaggerated story, be it patriotic, religious, heroic or simply "cool", than adults.
Regardless of the flag.

On a side note...
Just this morning I read on a local, Bosnian, portal about a "15-year-old Bosnian citizen" being killed in Gaza.
I won't go into the whole citizenship thing, but let's just say that the kid and his father who was quoted in the text are about as Bosnian in name and appearance as are those Chinese who live and work in Bosnia.
Probably a little less as Chinese are currently living and working here and not in Middle East.

But the point of the story is father's comment.
How "his son's blood was very costly, but for the precious Palestine, no cost is too high".

Regardless of the veracity of those words, THAT IS the image and mindset promoted by the Palestinian sources.
Be they establishment's or private.
That is what kids have been taught there for decades now.

Thus, standing GUARD next to a missile for those kids is not dumb but BRAVE AND GLORIOUS.

Feel free to imagine "The Minstrel Boy" playing over this post.

Propaganda

[Anonymous Coward]

The irony of it all. A story about social media propaganda which, in itself, is also propaganda.

Yeah, sure, youbetcha!

[Anonymous Coward]

It's more:

"they know the missile launcher will be blown up shortly after it open fire, so the rigged a remote activation system".

Explain these then

[Anonymous Coward]

From the jew talmud:

1. Sanhedrin 59a: "Murdering Goyim is like killing a wild animal."

2. Abodah Zara 26b: "Even the best of the Gentiles should be killed."

3. Sanhedrin 59a: "A goy (Gentile) who pries into The Law (Talmud) is guilty of death."

4. Yebhamoth 11b: "Sexual intercourse with a little girl is permitted if she is three years of age."

5. Schabouth Hag. 6d: "Jews may swear falsely by use of subterfuge wording."

6. Hilkkoth Akum X1: "Do not save Goyim in danger of death."

7. Hilkkoth Akum X1: "Show no mercy to the Goyim."

8. Choschen Hamm 388, 15: "If it can be proven that someone has given the money of Israelites to the Goyim, a way must be found after prudent consideration to wipe him off the face of the earth."

9. Choschen Hamm 266,1: "A Jew may keep anything he finds which belongs to the Akum (Gentile). For he who returns lost property (to Gentiles) sins against the Law by increasing the power of the transgressors of the Law. It is praiseworthy, however, to return lost property if it is done to honor the name of God, namely, if by so doing, Christians will praise the Jews and look upon them as honorable people."

10. Szaaloth-Utszabot, The Book of Jore Dia 17: "A Jew should and must make a false oath when the Goyim asks if our books contain anything against them."

11. Baba Necia 114, 6: "The Jews are human beings, but the nations of the world are not human beings but beasts."

12. Simeon Haddarsen, fol. 56-D: "When the Messiah comes every Jew will have 2800 slaves."

13. Nidrasch Talpioth, p. 225-L: "Jehovah created the non-Jew in human form so that the Jew would not have to be served by beasts. The non-Jew is consequently an animal in human form, and condemned to serve the Jew day and night."

14. Aboda Sarah 37a: "A Gentile girl who is three years old can be violated."

16. Gad. Shas. 2:2: "A Jew may violate but not marry a non-Jewish girl."

17. Tosefta. Aboda Zara B, 5: "If a goy kills a goy or a Jew, he is responsible; but if a Jew kills a goy, he is NOT responsible."

18. Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 388: "It is permitted to kill a Jewish denunciator everywhere. It is permitted to kill him even before he denounces."

19. Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 348: "All property of other nations belongs to the Jewish nation, which, consequently, is entitled to seize upon it without any scruples."

20. Tosefta, Abda Zara VIII, 5: "How to interpret the word 'robbery.' A goy is forbidden to steal, rob, or take women slaves, etc., from a goy or from a Jew. But a Jew is NOT forbidden to do all this to a goy."

21. Seph. Jp., 92, 1: "God has given the Jews power over the possessions and blood of all nations."

22. Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 156: "When a Jew has a Gentile in his clutches, another Jew may go to the same Gentile, lend him money and in turn deceive him, so that the Gentile shall be ruined. For the property of a Gentile, according to our law, belongs to no one, and the first Jew that passes has full right to seize it."

23. Schulchan Aruch, Johre Deah, 122: "A Jew is forbidden to drink from a glass of wine which a Gentile has touched, because the touch has made the wine unclean."

24. Nedarim 23b: "He who desires that none of his vows made during the year be valid, let him stand at the beginning of the year and declare, 'Every vow which I may make in the future shall be null'. His vows are then invalid."

****

So let's not try to make jews "heros" or "saints" here, or even victims. You can clearly see what they think of you all (yes, non-jews are Goy/Goyim and Gentiles from above), and quoted straight from their own belief systems. I didn't write that material above. Jews did.

Think about that.

Re:Explain these then

[Anonymous Coward]

TBH this bs made me laugh, but then i got sad that there might be ppl that read this, and actually believe it.

Re:Explain these then

[Anonymous Coward]

TBH you've made me laugh. Tough to defend yourself against truth isn't it?

bobby and his trap

[Anonymous Coward]

What's a bobby trap?

Re: Religion is the cause

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's be blunt here. If we didn't have religion, we would pave the whole goddamn region and make it into a shopping mall / amusement park. THIS is what the lies of religion have led to. Is it really worth it? I think not.

1100 Rockets

[Anonymous Coward]

Israel has had to defend itself from rocket attacks for years. Just because they have been doing, so does not give Hamas the right nor the moral high ground to keep pelting Israel with rockets. Hamas has declared that they are at war with the Israel. It would be one thing, if they declared war and did nothing. They put the citizens of Gaza at risk, using their own people as human shields. What army uses civilians like that? They want civilian casualties. They use the death and destruction of innocent civilians to garner public sympathy. The Palestinians know this, and try to flee for their lives, and Hamas forces them or punishes them for fleeing, while they flee. Videos prove what is already known.

Quelle surprise!

[RockDoctor]

Different countries using the people of the Middle East as a proving ground for their next generation of warfare tools.

Film at 11?

So unsurprising.

Preemptive strikes

[NewYork]

Jews worldwide = 18 million and Muslims = 1.8 billion
Why Israel thinks https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wik... will make their future generations safe/secure?