Microsoft Surface Drowning?

hcs_$reboot (1536101) writes Again, not much good news for the MS Surface. Computerworld reports a Microsoft's losses on the tablet device at $US1.7 billion so far. But, still, Microsoft is serene: "It's been exciting to see the response to the Surface Pro 3 from individuals and businesses alike. In fact, Surface Pro 3 sales are already outpacing prior versions of Surface Pro. The Surface business generated more than $2B in revenue for the fiscal year 2014 and $409 million in revenue during Q4 FY14 alone, the latter of which included just ten days of Intel Core i5 Surface Pro 3 sales in Canada and the US." Should Microsoft pull the plug on the tablet? Or maybe it's just a matter of users getting used to the Surface? Even if they're losing money on the Pro 3, Microsoft has seemingly little to be ashamed of when it comes to reviews of the hardware.

Comments

Confusing the issue

[Your.Master]

The loss isn't on one device, it's on a series of devices in two different product lines (RT and Pro). The Surface Pro 3 is a particular device in a particular line. You can't just get the 1.7 billion back on the previous products by cutting the newest device. There isn't enough data here to make a call on whether Microsoft should "pull the plug on the tablet" because we don't have any idea whether the new one makes money, nor any way to extrapolate from the spotty old data.

What we can notice is the conspicuous absence of a Surface RT 3 -- it appears like the RT line was a big anchor and is being cut loose, and the Pro line may be legitimately successful. The Pro line was generally praised by reviewers. The RT line...not so much.

Re:Confusing the issue

[DrXym]

RT was a stillborn concept from the beginning. Windows without Windows compatibility is a stupid idea. It was even worse for having a desktop mode and all that bloat as a kludge to support a half baked port of MS Office.

Perhaps it might have enjoyed more success if they had added x86 emulation and LLVM-esque runtime support to Visual Studio and C++ so a large portion of desktop apps could be recompiled for it.

Re:Confusing the issue

[SpzToid]

How many of those former Nokia employees that have just lost their job, (mostly in Finland, yes, but still!), could have contributed towards improving the Surface line, or the Windows tablet agenda in-general? Where's the synergy, Microsoft?

Re:Confusing the issue

[thegarbz]

Hardly. Intel's efforts despite how poor they may have been early on started way before the Surface RT was on the radar. The Atom line which was Intel's first real foray into low-power devices pre-dates the original Surface by 4 years.

What you say still holds true, just that it wasn't the surface that was the catalyst, it was phones / tables replacing general purpose computing devices. You could almost blame Android for this more than anything.

Re:Confusing the issue

[CastrTroy]

As long as you understand that it doesn't run Windows programs, just like Windows Phone doesn't run Windows Apps, then personally I think it isn't that bad of a device.

I got a Surface 2 (RT) and I think that it has some great advantages over the other 10 inch tablet offerings. It has expandable storage using Micro SD (or USB3) which the iPad lacks.

It has native access to network drives which means that any program that accesses files can also read files off network drives (SMB and OneDrive) without requiring special programming, which is something that isn't available on iPad or Android.

It has a full size USB3 port which allows you to plug in all sorts of devices like proper mice and keyboards, as well as an XBox controller, which is great for gaming. A hub can be used to plug in multiple devices.

It has HDMI out using standard Micro USB which doesn't exist on the iPad, and which seems to be missing from a lot of Android offerings. This is great if you just want to hook up the device to a TV or a secondary monitor. You can either duplicate or extend your display.

There are very few restrictions as to what kind of apps they will allow you to publish. There are many emulators which work great with the XBox controller. There are also bittorrent clients. Those are 2 things you can't do with an iPad. You can also program your own apps using the free version of Visual Studio if you have a desktop/laptop.

My wife has an iPad and personally I find that it's a real pain to do things that should be easily do-able. I've gone through 4 or 5 apps (some paid and some free) to try to find an app that will just play videos of various formats off a network drive and haven't found a single one that will play all my videos. With my Surface 2, the built in video player will play just about anything, and I had to get another app to play MKV and MPEG2. The iPad only has 12 GB free out of the box, and the upgrade to the 32 GB version costs an extra $100. The 32 GB Surface RT (which is $50 cheaper than the 16 GB iPad) comes with 18 GB usable storage out of the box, and allows you to easily get more storage using the MicroSD slot. You can get the 64 GB Surface 2 for $50 cheaper than the 32 GB version of the iPad.

The only thing that I don't like about my Surface 2 is the small selection of apps. But despite that, I can't think of anything I can't do that I'd want to do with a 10 inch tablet. The only real disadvantage is that there are fewer games to choose from. I don't see that as a huge disadvantage.

Re:Confusing the issue

[gman003]

I still think RT could have worked as a corporate tablet. Make it integrate 100% with AD and everything, give it built-in Office, and give bulk discounts when buying over a dozen of them. But no, Microsoft was blinded by the dreams of the consumer market, despite it being owned by Android/iPad, and so they missed the one niche they really could have nailed with it.

Re:Confusing the issue

[Ol Olsoc]

What we can notice is the conspicuous absence of a Surface RT 3 -- it appears like the RT line was a big anchor and is being cut loose, and the Pro line may be legitimately successful. The Pro line was generally praised by reviewers. The RT line...not so much.

The problem as I see it is that Microsoft has a mammoth credibility issue. They've used up their allotment of fuckup forgiveness. Starting largely with Vista, then throw in some other botched up stuff like Zune, Surface RT, The entire Windows 8 debacle,Windows phone - and it's not terribly surprising that people might be resistant to what might otherwise be a fine instrument.

The problem of Microsoft

[rolfc]

Hardware has never been their problem, their problem has always been their strategy that has led them wrong.

By building products that are incompatible with others and refusing to open up Office files, they have implanted themself as the evil company in the mindset of those afffected. Those affected are those that realise that the world is always changing and want to be free to use any product.

Those are also the people that end up makeing decisions about what products to use.

Microsoft has "closed" them self out of the market.

Re:The problem of Microsoft

[ranton]

By building products that are incompatible with others and refusing to open up Office files, they have implanted themself as the evil company in the mindset of those afffected. Those affected are those that realise that the world is always changing and want to be free to use any product.

I doubt there are that many people outside of the stereotypical Slashdot demographic who view Microsoft the way you are describing them. Most people I know of know Microsoft as simply the company who makes the software they are familiar with. Apple is far more often thought of as a "closed off" ecosystem than Microsoft. As far as other major technology companies go, Google is the only one I can think of that people feel is more "good" than Microsoft, and with privacy concerns starting to spread to the general population this could be changing.

The only thing standing against Microsoft in the eyes of the general public is that most mobile software is available for Apple/Android, not Microsoft. It is the exact same problem Apple/Linux had in the desktop battle of the last decade. Almost no one is making their tablet/phone purchasing decision based on how "evil" the company making the device is.

Re:The problem of Microsoft

[RoLi]

I doubt there are that many people outside of the stereotypical Slashdot demographic who view Microsoft the way you are describing them. Most people I know of know Microsoft as simply the company who makes the software they are familiar with.

Well, the problem is that Microsoft no longer makes software they are familiar with!

The ribbon-interface for Office was already alienating their users, although in the end it was accepted - but Windows 8 is just one step too far - a LOT of users are fed up. Apple is profiting from that, but also Android and maybe soon Steambox.

Re:The problem of Microsoft

[gnasher719]

I doubt there are that many people outside of the stereotypical Slashdot demographic who view Microsoft the way you are describing them. Most people I know of know Microsoft as simply the company who makes the software they are familiar with. Apple is far more often thought of as a "closed off" ecosystem than Microsoft.

You are contradicting yourself. The first part is right - many people don't see Microsoft the way that many slashdotters see them. The second part is wrong - most people don't see Apple the way that some slashdotters see them.

Re:The problem of Microsoft

[CastrTroy]

And yet MS is coming up with new ways to license Windows that make it cheaper than ever to make sure people have proper Windows Licenses. They also have this which is what allows you to buy $99 refurbished (off lease) PCs and ensure that you get a proper Windows license. The last $99 refurb I bought came with such a license and also included an actual OS install CD.

I think they have a ways to go in terms of people building their own machines, or upgrading old versions. But it's not like they are charging ridiculous amounts of money for their software.

Re:The problem of Microsoft

[fuzznutz]

I doubt there are that many people outside of the stereotypical Slashdot demographic who view Microsoft the way you are describing them. Most people I know of know Microsoft as simply the company who makes the software they are familiar with.

Most of the non-techie people I know despise Windows and Microsoft because they can't keep their computers running for six months without having to take it to the "Geek Squad" and have it disinfected. They could give a shit about openness, but they just don't understand why Microsoft can't make Windows work. The Techie people I know hate Microsoft because their past behavior. The president of one company I consult for hates Microsoft and wishes they could switch to something else, but their very expensive modelling and accounting software only runs on Windows.

When most of your customers hate you, it's not usually a very good long term prospect.

Re:The problem of Microsoft

[David Jao]

The Microsoft tax is not just about the monetary price of Windows. That's actually the least burdensome part of the tax. The real problem is the cost of license compliance. Most obvious are the direct costs: license management, purchase records, and receipt tracking. How much staff time are you going to spend on keeping track of Client Access Licenses? Is this expense worth it, when there are free platforms with no CAL requirements? I bet you didn't know the MS EULA gives the BSA the right to audit your premises at will. That's another huge overhead which simply does not exist with free software: A single small screw-up (almost inevitable, given the minuteness with which the audit is conducted) results in heavy fines plus having to pay the considerable costs of the audit. Compared to this insanity, anyone using exclusively free software can simply slam the door on the BSA and tell them never to come back unless they have a warrant.

Those are just the direct costs of compliance. The indirect costs of Microsoft's licensing model are something that even fewer users realize. You can't customize a distro and legally release the result to anyone outside of the organizational unit holding the license. You can't slipstream updates and legally distribute to outside parties. You can't create USB bootable media and legally release it to anyone else. Rescue discs and installation discs customized for particular hardware are left to the mercy of your OEM. All of these restrictions cause considerable friction which slows down the agility of your business. If nothing else, it makes it very hard to outsource IT functions; at most, you can hire contractors who have to keep your OS software bits separate from everyone else's OS software bits. How can this situation possibly compare favorably to free software where anyone can create and share anything? It really can't.

I have a Lenovo Miix 2 11"

[DrXym]

It's similarly specced to a Surface Pro 2/3 but considerably cheaper and includes a keyboard. I think by far the biggest issue with the Surface Pro is the keyboard is a pricey extra for an already pricey tablet.

If they bundled the keyboard with these things they'd sell a hell of a lot more of them. They're not bad devices, just too expensive. And let's be blunt, Windows without a keyboard is worse than fucking useless.

Re:I have a Lenovo Miix 2 11"

[Simulant]

I've got a Lenovo Twist and it is, by far, the most frustrating device I've ever used. It's partially Lenovo's fault for bloatware & minor hardware issues but mostly I blame it on the schizophrenic OS that is Windows 8.1. Want to use it as tablet? Try manipulating that file with your fingers when a default app takes you to the desktop. Want to use it as a desktop? Whoops... That file just opened up in some crippled, full screen metro app...
Just want to login to the damn thing? Why is the screen stuck upside down? I just pulled a neck muscle.... <Sigh>

Pick your poison

[93 Escort Wagon]

Is it an almost-2-pound tablet, or is it a small light laptop with a crummy keyboard? You decide!

(Yes I have used the keyboard)

Re:Pick your poison

[thegarbz]

Why does it need to fall into either category? I would put it in a different class of cross over devices.

Is it an overweight tablet or a laptop with a crummy keyboard? How about a one device fits everything, great for note taking and doing work on but not so hot for writing novels or playing shitty games on the bus.

Stupid part is I would just buy a normal laptop if the ones with decent screens weren't the price of the Surface Pro 3, at which point I'm wondering why I would buy a device that's so limiting that it needs to be open and used with a keyboard.

Re:Pick your poison

[PopeRatzo]

Neither. It's the greatest mobile music production computer ever invented. Touch screen, portable, full standard connectivity. Runs full versions of the best DAW software w/ plug-ins. There's nothing close.

I've got two of 'em. I'm not really invested in Microsoft's success, but I hope there are a few other manufacturers who are paying attention.

Re:Pick your poison

[hendrips]

Here I was trying to decide whether it was PC with half the weight and twice the power of the laptop I got from work, or a great way to take notes electronically without the hassle of LaTeX. Mindset is everything, I guess.

For what it's worth, I've been using a Surface Pro for almost 6 months, and I haven't used the keyboard cover. Usually, the on-screen keyboard or the stylus have been fine for input, just like on other tablets. On the very one or two occasions that I have needed to do a lengthy amount of typing, I just plugged in a standard keyboard. Dissing a tablet because of an optional add-on seems a bit unfair.

Re:Pick your poison

[Anonymous Coward]

How about a one device fits everything, great for note taking and doing work on but not so hot for writing novels or playing shitty games on the bus.

Only Microsoft thinks they can produce one product that does everything. That one device, operating system, or software doesn't exist. There are too many use cases, physical constraints, and cost constraints to be the One Electronic Gadget to Rule Them All.

Seriously. I love my desktop computer because it's got an awesome keyboard and fabulous screen real estate. It can download a full CD in under 15 seconds. I can write for hours in one window with a reference manual open right next to it. I love my phone because it fits in my pocket and I can have nearly instantaneous access to all the details of my life I no longer bother to memorize. That it lacks a keyboard is almost entirely irrelevant, because the demand "fits in my pocket" precludes any kind of extensive i/o. Laptop and tablet are both compromises that compromise portability and extensive user input in different ways.

If MS could make a desktop-functional computer with a real keyboard and 27" viewing device that I could fold up and put in my pocket; that I could also ask which stop I'm supposed to get off while crammed among other subway riders; and that I could use as an electronic clipboard, I would be all over it. But outside of a Transformers movie, no such thing is possible. That Microsoft keeps trying to build it only reveals that they fail to understand optimization. It's the same reason Stanley sells a hell of a lot more screwdrivers than Leatherman sells multitools.

Pull the plug on RT

[msobkow]

If Microsoft thinks their big selling point is compatability with Windows applications, then by all means they should pull the plug on RT.

As to the Surface Pro, I think it suffers from one big glaring flaw: it runs Windows applications.

That means using menus, right clicks, and other such interface behaviours that are far from natural for a tablet/touch screen interface. What is needed for a successful tablet is an ecosystem of applications that are built just for tablet use. All the gestures in the world won't make it easy to right-click with one button (your finger), and let's face it: most of the useful functions of a Windows application interface are provided by the right-click menus.

Even something so trivial as the toolbars and buttons/icons have to be upscaled for a touch interface, otherwise you get touches/clicks on the wrong interface widget. That which is easily clicked by an accurate device like a mouse or touchpad is notoriously hard to nail down with a fat finger.

Re:Pull the plug on RT

[thegarbz]

As to the Surface Pro, I think it suffers from one big glaring flaw: it runs Windows applications.

You're assuming everyone wants a tablet with laptop capabilities. Some of us want laptops with tablet capabilities.

Yes, the ability to run Windows applications is its biggest plus in my opinion. I finally have a full computer device minus the usual limiting app store ecosystem which if I'm on the go and need to take notes I can flip it over and start writing.

Ignoring the abortion that is metro Windows itself is still quite usable as a tablet with a stylus and One Note is a phenomenal piece of software (considering who wrote it).

Re:Embrace or Expire?

[Beck_Neard]

It's been slipping away for about a decade. You should be quicker at noticing things :)

But seriously, they have been transitioning to a more service-based company. They're basically pulling an IBM.

Re:Microsoft cannot fool all the people all the ti

[jkrise]

I can't believe how sentimental people were towards a junkpile like XP

Sentimental, eh? More like hard-nosed and very very practical and down to earth.
Will XP get my real useful application software running? YES.
Will my software run on 7 or 8? NO.

So, no sentiment towards Microsoft - simply stick with what works.

Stuff that works isn't junkpile; stuff that consumes more space but gets in the way of getting work done is a large pile of junk. So the adjective suits Windows 7 or 8, not XP.

keyboard support still lacking in Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

As soon as googling reveals that Surface Pro 3 runs a mainstream Linux distro well, I'll consider one. (Apparently only keyboard support is hard.) In the meantime, no, I'm not interested in an Apple-style play where the hardware is wedded to the manufacturers OS.

Re:Embrace or Expire?

[dbIII]

Trying something and not following through. In the meantime they proved once again that you can't be market leader in a new segment by killing the existing market leader and wearing the skin you've peeled off it.

It never goes away

[dbIII]

The real problem is the cost of license compliance.

I had some shakedown artist apparently "approved by Microsoft" hassle me about compliance last year (2013) and their evidence was a licence for NT4 purchased in 1998 which expired in 2000. Sorting out licencing shit from fifteen years ago is almost something to call in geologists to deal with.

Re:Embrace or Expire?

[RabidReindeer]

IBM provides service? Not from what I've seen lately. In fact, I'm not sure what IBM provides any more except a way for companies with too much money on their hands with a drain to pour it down.

I count the actual Beginning of the End for Microsoft to be about Windows 2003 - when they stopped being Santa with all the freeebies and started being the Grinch - restricting some kinds of multimedia and copy-protecting the OS (before then, the security keys were mostly cosmetic).

Still, with Windows 8, they basically fell off a cliff.

MacOS, Android, and yes, even Linux on the Desktop are now all "good enough", but for a lot of people, Windows 8 isn't. And Windows never had dominance for being actually superior, just for being "good enough".

Re:Embrace or Expire?

[roc97007]

Trying something and not following through. In the meantime they proved once again that you can't be market leader in a new segment by killing the existing market leader and wearing the skin you've peeled off it.

That's a vivid metaphor, and describes the situation precisely. :-) I may use that.