Microsoft Surface Drowning?

hcs_$reboot (1536101) writes Again, not much good news for the MS Surface. Computerworld reports a Microsoft's losses on the tablet device at $US1.7 billion so far. But, still, Microsoft is serene: "It's been exciting to see the response to the Surface Pro 3 from individuals and businesses alike. In fact, Surface Pro 3 sales are already outpacing prior versions of Surface Pro. The Surface business generated more than $2B in revenue for the fiscal year 2014 and $409 million in revenue during Q4 FY14 alone, the latter of which included just ten days of Intel Core i5 Surface Pro 3 sales in Canada and the US." Should Microsoft pull the plug on the tablet? Or maybe it's just a matter of users getting used to the Surface? Even if they're losing money on the Pro 3, Microsoft has seemingly little to be ashamed of when it comes to reviews of the hardware.

Comments

Embrace or Expire?

[polyp2000]

I honestly cant help but think that Microsofts dominance is slowly slipping away.

Re:Embrace or Expire?

[Beck_Neard]

It's been slipping away for about a decade. You should be quicker at noticing things :)

But seriously, they have been transitioning to a more service-based company. They're basically pulling an IBM.

Re:Embrace or Expire?

[dbIII]

Trying something and not following through. In the meantime they proved once again that you can't be market leader in a new segment by killing the existing market leader and wearing the skin you've peeled off it.

Re:Embrace or Expire?

[RabidReindeer]

IBM provides service? Not from what I've seen lately. In fact, I'm not sure what IBM provides any more except a way for companies with too much money on their hands with a drain to pour it down.

I count the actual Beginning of the End for Microsoft to be about Windows 2003 - when they stopped being Santa with all the freeebies and started being the Grinch - restricting some kinds of multimedia and copy-protecting the OS (before then, the security keys were mostly cosmetic).

Still, with Windows 8, they basically fell off a cliff.

MacOS, Android, and yes, even Linux on the Desktop are now all "good enough", but for a lot of people, Windows 8 isn't. And Windows never had dominance for being actually superior, just for being "good enough".

Re:Embrace or Expire?

[roc97007]

Trying something and not following through. In the meantime they proved once again that you can't be market leader in a new segment by killing the existing market leader and wearing the skin you've peeled off it.

That's a vivid metaphor, and describes the situation precisely. :-) I may use that.

It's a still a nice PC.

[uqbar]

For years I hated MS. But of late they are doing really nice work and getting mocked despite doing real innovation. It feels weird to like MS as an underdog, but that's what it's come to. And I will be be getting a Surface 3 - it's the one that finally kills it in terms of compact size and decent computing power. I just gotta save up cuz it's not a cheap machine.

Re: It's a still a nice PC.

[murdocj]

As an Apple fan boy, even I don't own an iPad. I just don't see a need for any tablet in my life, my iPhone is enough. For mobile computing I have an IBM T40 and T41 with Linux installed with Open Office. My desktop PCs are Mac Minis with MS Office installed.

Same here. I have tried to convince myself to pull the trigger on buying a tablet of some form, and I just can't see the use. Maybe if I traveled a lot I'd get one for games & movies on a plane, but otherwise, I'm rarely out of reach of a laptop or desktop, and my ITouch does the job when I'm traveling. A co-worker who is an apple fanboy raved about his IPad, and then I didn't see it for a while. I finally asked him about it and he said he had stopped using it. Which kind of says it all.

Re:It's a still a nice PC.

[SuricouRaven]

The latter. The ARM surface will only run MS-approved apps (With the usual awkward workaround for developers), so you have to use their API and libraries anyway.

Re:It's a still a nice PC.

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

It does have that (though using a stylus still tends to involve enough contact with your hand to make cleaning relevant); but it is also a touchscreen device so depending on the don't touch it school of cleanliness is a bit of a waste.

Re:It's a still a nice PC.

[Wycliffe]

Matte definitely helps. I made the mistake on my last laptop purchase of accepting a "free upgrade" to a glossy screen
without realizing what I was doing. I hated it. All my other laptops before and since have been matte finish and they
do decently ok with glare. A more specialized screen would probably be better if outside visibility was your primary
objective but if you have additional selection criterias then requiring a specialized screen really narrows your selection.
I find that for my purposes a glossy screen is completely unusable while a matte screen has acceptable performance in
sunlight and gives me a much larger selection of laptops to chose from at more reasonable prices than a specialized screen
would.

Re: It's a still a nice PC.

[tipo159]

I have an iPhone, an iPad mini (with a keyboard cover) and a laptop. I always have my phone with me. Whether I also bring the iPad (and whether I also bring its keyboard cover) or the laptop depends on stuff like where I expect that I might be able to get work done, how much stuff I want to lug around and the specific tasks that I expect that I will try to do.

My mom hasn't even bothered to figure out why she can't connect her laptop to her Mifi, so seldom uses it, because she can do everything that she needs to do with her tablet.

There are a lot of people here who seem to take the view "well, it doesn't work for me, so how useful can it be". If you feel strongly enough about it to post the opinion, maybe you should look beyond examples that confirm your bias.

Confusing the issue

[Your.Master]

The loss isn't on one device, it's on a series of devices in two different product lines (RT and Pro). The Surface Pro 3 is a particular device in a particular line. You can't just get the 1.7 billion back on the previous products by cutting the newest device. There isn't enough data here to make a call on whether Microsoft should "pull the plug on the tablet" because we don't have any idea whether the new one makes money, nor any way to extrapolate from the spotty old data.

What we can notice is the conspicuous absence of a Surface RT 3 -- it appears like the RT line was a big anchor and is being cut loose, and the Pro line may be legitimately successful. The Pro line was generally praised by reviewers. The RT line...not so much.

Re:Confusing the issue

[DrXym]

RT was a stillborn concept from the beginning. Windows without Windows compatibility is a stupid idea. It was even worse for having a desktop mode and all that bloat as a kludge to support a half baked port of MS Office.

Perhaps it might have enjoyed more success if they had added x86 emulation and LLVM-esque runtime support to Visual Studio and C++ so a large portion of desktop apps could be recompiled for it.

Re:Confusing the issue

[jareth-0205]

It did potentially have one very important effect... to persuade Intel that they power consumption of their chips are pants and needs to be improved. Intel needs competition to keep them honest, and Windows-on-ARM is probably why we have such frugal x86 now.

Re:Confusing the issue

[SpzToid]

How many of those former Nokia employees that have just lost their job, (mostly in Finland, yes, but still!), could have contributed towards improving the Surface line, or the Windows tablet agenda in-general? Where's the synergy, Microsoft?

Re:Confusing the issue

[thegarbz]

Hardly. Intel's efforts despite how poor they may have been early on started way before the Surface RT was on the radar. The Atom line which was Intel's first real foray into low-power devices pre-dates the original Surface by 4 years.

What you say still holds true, just that it wasn't the surface that was the catalyst, it was phones / tables replacing general purpose computing devices. You could almost blame Android for this more than anything.

Re:Confusing the issue

[CastrTroy]

As long as you understand that it doesn't run Windows programs, just like Windows Phone doesn't run Windows Apps, then personally I think it isn't that bad of a device.

I got a Surface 2 (RT) and I think that it has some great advantages over the other 10 inch tablet offerings. It has expandable storage using Micro SD (or USB3) which the iPad lacks.

It has native access to network drives which means that any program that accesses files can also read files off network drives (SMB and OneDrive) without requiring special programming, which is something that isn't available on iPad or Android.

It has a full size USB3 port which allows you to plug in all sorts of devices like proper mice and keyboards, as well as an XBox controller, which is great for gaming. A hub can be used to plug in multiple devices.

It has HDMI out using standard Micro USB which doesn't exist on the iPad, and which seems to be missing from a lot of Android offerings. This is great if you just want to hook up the device to a TV or a secondary monitor. You can either duplicate or extend your display.

There are very few restrictions as to what kind of apps they will allow you to publish. There are many emulators which work great with the XBox controller. There are also bittorrent clients. Those are 2 things you can't do with an iPad. You can also program your own apps using the free version of Visual Studio if you have a desktop/laptop.

My wife has an iPad and personally I find that it's a real pain to do things that should be easily do-able. I've gone through 4 or 5 apps (some paid and some free) to try to find an app that will just play videos of various formats off a network drive and haven't found a single one that will play all my videos. With my Surface 2, the built in video player will play just about anything, and I had to get another app to play MKV and MPEG2. The iPad only has 12 GB free out of the box, and the upgrade to the 32 GB version costs an extra $100. The 32 GB Surface RT (which is $50 cheaper than the 16 GB iPad) comes with 18 GB usable storage out of the box, and allows you to easily get more storage using the MicroSD slot. You can get the 64 GB Surface 2 for $50 cheaper than the 32 GB version of the iPad.

The only thing that I don't like about my Surface 2 is the small selection of apps. But despite that, I can't think of anything I can't do that I'd want to do with a 10 inch tablet. The only real disadvantage is that there are fewer games to choose from. I don't see that as a huge disadvantage.

Re:Confusing the issue

[gman003]

I still think RT could have worked as a corporate tablet. Make it integrate 100% with AD and everything, give it built-in Office, and give bulk discounts when buying over a dozen of them. But no, Microsoft was blinded by the dreams of the consumer market, despite it being owned by Android/iPad, and so they missed the one niche they really could have nailed with it.

Re:Confusing the issue

[leomekenkamp]

My wife has an iPad and personally I find that it's a real pain to do things that should be easily do-able. I've gone through 4 or 5 apps (some paid and some free) to try to find an app that will just play videos of various formats off a network drive and haven't found a single one that will play all my videos.

Things like 'network drive' are too complicated for a tablet mindset, at least that is what Apple thinks. If you want to use 'network disks and stuff', that is what a laptop / desktop computer is for.

An app that covers your functional requirements for playing all sorts of videos is 'Air Video' or 'Air Video HD'. It requires a server component installed on a base computer, in my case a Mac, but Windows is supported too. The server transcodes the video stream to h.264 which any iOS device can play. I have found that everything I can play on the Mac can be transcoded.

Interface is quite simple. Set up shareable folders on the server and you are ready to go. Support included for viewing with live conversion or for storing the converted file on the iOS device. Among the best two-something Euros I have ever spent.

Re:Confusing the issue

[Ol Olsoc]

What we can notice is the conspicuous absence of a Surface RT 3 -- it appears like the RT line was a big anchor and is being cut loose, and the Pro line may be legitimately successful. The Pro line was generally praised by reviewers. The RT line...not so much.

The problem as I see it is that Microsoft has a mammoth credibility issue. They've used up their allotment of fuckup forgiveness. Starting largely with Vista, then throw in some other botched up stuff like Zune, Surface RT, The entire Windows 8 debacle,Windows phone - and it's not terribly surprising that people might be resistant to what might otherwise be a fine instrument.

The problem of Microsoft

[rolfc]

Hardware has never been their problem, their problem has always been their strategy that has led them wrong.

By building products that are incompatible with others and refusing to open up Office files, they have implanted themself as the evil company in the mindset of those afffected. Those affected are those that realise that the world is always changing and want to be free to use any product.

Those are also the people that end up makeing decisions about what products to use.

Microsoft has "closed" them self out of the market.

Re:The problem of Microsoft

[ranton]

By building products that are incompatible with others and refusing to open up Office files, they have implanted themself as the evil company in the mindset of those afffected. Those affected are those that realise that the world is always changing and want to be free to use any product.

I doubt there are that many people outside of the stereotypical Slashdot demographic who view Microsoft the way you are describing them. Most people I know of know Microsoft as simply the company who makes the software they are familiar with. Apple is far more often thought of as a "closed off" ecosystem than Microsoft. As far as other major technology companies go, Google is the only one I can think of that people feel is more "good" than Microsoft, and with privacy concerns starting to spread to the general population this could be changing.

The only thing standing against Microsoft in the eyes of the general public is that most mobile software is available for Apple/Android, not Microsoft. It is the exact same problem Apple/Linux had in the desktop battle of the last decade. Almost no one is making their tablet/phone purchasing decision based on how "evil" the company making the device is.

Re:The problem of Microsoft

[RoLi]

I doubt there are that many people outside of the stereotypical Slashdot demographic who view Microsoft the way you are describing them. Most people I know of know Microsoft as simply the company who makes the software they are familiar with.

Well, the problem is that Microsoft no longer makes software they are familiar with!

The ribbon-interface for Office was already alienating their users, although in the end it was accepted - but Windows 8 is just one step too far - a LOT of users are fed up. Apple is profiting from that, but also Android and maybe soon Steambox.

Re:The problem of Microsoft

[phayes]

I doubt there are that many people outside of the stereotypical Slashdot demographic who view Microsoft the way you are describing them.

Clearly you are not talking to the people who are paying the Microsoft tax. Microsoft's repeated licensing changes which have made it ever more expensive to be correctly licensed have made them no friends and many enemies. These are NOT the generic slashdot crowd, they are the people who look at the year over year increases in licensing wondering why they have to pay more for the same services. MS's bundling of supplementary services -- which they neither want nor need doesn't justify the increases for them.

Re:The problem of Microsoft

[gnasher719]

I doubt there are that many people outside of the stereotypical Slashdot demographic who view Microsoft the way you are describing them. Most people I know of know Microsoft as simply the company who makes the software they are familiar with. Apple is far more often thought of as a "closed off" ecosystem than Microsoft.

You are contradicting yourself. The first part is right - many people don't see Microsoft the way that many slashdotters see them. The second part is wrong - most people don't see Apple the way that some slashdotters see them.

Re:The problem of Microsoft

[rolfc]

"If you are going to discuss Microsoft's problems, I suggest not bringing up MS Office. Because it is one of the few examples of areas where Microsoft is doing just fine." It can't open Microsofts own ISO standard. It is not very good att OpenDocument. If productivity means producing documents in open formats, MS office is not there.

Re:The problem of Microsoft

[CastrTroy]

And yet MS is coming up with new ways to license Windows that make it cheaper than ever to make sure people have proper Windows Licenses. They also have this which is what allows you to buy $99 refurbished (off lease) PCs and ensure that you get a proper Windows license. The last $99 refurb I bought came with such a license and also included an actual OS install CD.

I think they have a ways to go in terms of people building their own machines, or upgrading old versions. But it's not like they are charging ridiculous amounts of money for their software.

Re:The problem of Microsoft

[fuzznutz]

I doubt there are that many people outside of the stereotypical Slashdot demographic who view Microsoft the way you are describing them. Most people I know of know Microsoft as simply the company who makes the software they are familiar with.

Most of the non-techie people I know despise Windows and Microsoft because they can't keep their computers running for six months without having to take it to the "Geek Squad" and have it disinfected. They could give a shit about openness, but they just don't understand why Microsoft can't make Windows work. The Techie people I know hate Microsoft because their past behavior. The president of one company I consult for hates Microsoft and wishes they could switch to something else, but their very expensive modelling and accounting software only runs on Windows.

When most of your customers hate you, it's not usually a very good long term prospect.

Re:The problem of Microsoft

[David Jao]

The Microsoft tax is not just about the monetary price of Windows. That's actually the least burdensome part of the tax. The real problem is the cost of license compliance. Most obvious are the direct costs: license management, purchase records, and receipt tracking. How much staff time are you going to spend on keeping track of Client Access Licenses? Is this expense worth it, when there are free platforms with no CAL requirements? I bet you didn't know the MS EULA gives the BSA the right to audit your premises at will. That's another huge overhead which simply does not exist with free software: A single small screw-up (almost inevitable, given the minuteness with which the audit is conducted) results in heavy fines plus having to pay the considerable costs of the audit. Compared to this insanity, anyone using exclusively free software can simply slam the door on the BSA and tell them never to come back unless they have a warrant.

Those are just the direct costs of compliance. The indirect costs of Microsoft's licensing model are something that even fewer users realize. You can't customize a distro and legally release the result to anyone outside of the organizational unit holding the license. You can't slipstream updates and legally distribute to outside parties. You can't create USB bootable media and legally release it to anyone else. Rescue discs and installation discs customized for particular hardware are left to the mercy of your OEM. All of these restrictions cause considerable friction which slows down the agility of your business. If nothing else, it makes it very hard to outsource IT functions; at most, you can hire contractors who have to keep your OS software bits separate from everyone else's OS software bits. How can this situation possibly compare favorably to free software where anyone can create and share anything? It really can't.

Re:The problem of Microsoft

[JD-1027]

You mentioned free software being license free, but what about Apple now that their OS and their office suite is free? I'm not familiar with Apple support contracts, so maybe there is more to it.

How will things play out now that Microsoft is the only one charging for OS and office suites? I'm sure they can hold on for quite a while, but the landscape is pretty interesting right now.

I have a Lenovo Miix 2 11"

[DrXym]

It's similarly specced to a Surface Pro 2/3 but considerably cheaper and includes a keyboard. I think by far the biggest issue with the Surface Pro is the keyboard is a pricey extra for an already pricey tablet.

If they bundled the keyboard with these things they'd sell a hell of a lot more of them. They're not bad devices, just too expensive. And let's be blunt, Windows without a keyboard is worse than fucking useless.

Re:I have a Lenovo Miix 2 11"

[Simulant]

I've got a Lenovo Twist and it is, by far, the most frustrating device I've ever used. It's partially Lenovo's fault for bloatware & minor hardware issues but mostly I blame it on the schizophrenic OS that is Windows 8.1. Want to use it as tablet? Try manipulating that file with your fingers when a default app takes you to the desktop. Want to use it as a desktop? Whoops... That file just opened up in some crippled, full screen metro app...
Just want to login to the damn thing? Why is the screen stuck upside down? I just pulled a neck muscle.... <Sigh>

Pick your poison

[93 Escort Wagon]

Is it an almost-2-pound tablet, or is it a small light laptop with a crummy keyboard? You decide!

(Yes I have used the keyboard)

Re:Pick your poison

[thegarbz]

Why does it need to fall into either category? I would put it in a different class of cross over devices.

Is it an overweight tablet or a laptop with a crummy keyboard? How about a one device fits everything, great for note taking and doing work on but not so hot for writing novels or playing shitty games on the bus.

Stupid part is I would just buy a normal laptop if the ones with decent screens weren't the price of the Surface Pro 3, at which point I'm wondering why I would buy a device that's so limiting that it needs to be open and used with a keyboard.

Re:Pick your poison

[drinkypoo]

I'm holding out for the next generation of the Cintiq Companion (which currently stands at a whopping 4lbs, keyboard not included.)

You do realize that there are several other devices which integrate the wacom combo multitouch digitizer, and which are substantially less expensive and have more processing power?

Re:Pick your poison

[PopeRatzo]

Neither. It's the greatest mobile music production computer ever invented. Touch screen, portable, full standard connectivity. Runs full versions of the best DAW software w/ plug-ins. There's nothing close.

I've got two of 'em. I'm not really invested in Microsoft's success, but I hope there are a few other manufacturers who are paying attention.

Re:Pick your poison

[netsavior]

yeah, you say that, but all I hear is "It is a tablet that can play steam games" The only one on the market.

Re:Pick your poison

[lytles]

i haven't used it, so take this with a grain of salt. but, it appears that it can be used as a laptop in profile mode, ie rotated 90s so that it's 11" and 2160 pixels tall, which no other small light laptop (probably any laptop) can come close to

so if what you care about is vertical pixels, it's a small light laptop with a crummy keyboard and an *amazing* display

Re:Pick your poison

[hendrips]

Here I was trying to decide whether it was PC with half the weight and twice the power of the laptop I got from work, or a great way to take notes electronically without the hassle of LaTeX. Mindset is everything, I guess.

For what it's worth, I've been using a Surface Pro for almost 6 months, and I haven't used the keyboard cover. Usually, the on-screen keyboard or the stylus have been fine for input, just like on other tablets. On the very one or two occasions that I have needed to do a lengthy amount of typing, I just plugged in a standard keyboard. Dissing a tablet because of an optional add-on seems a bit unfair.

Re:Pick your poison

[Anonymous Coward]

How about a one device fits everything, great for note taking and doing work on but not so hot for writing novels or playing shitty games on the bus.

Only Microsoft thinks they can produce one product that does everything. That one device, operating system, or software doesn't exist. There are too many use cases, physical constraints, and cost constraints to be the One Electronic Gadget to Rule Them All.

Seriously. I love my desktop computer because it's got an awesome keyboard and fabulous screen real estate. It can download a full CD in under 15 seconds. I can write for hours in one window with a reference manual open right next to it. I love my phone because it fits in my pocket and I can have nearly instantaneous access to all the details of my life I no longer bother to memorize. That it lacks a keyboard is almost entirely irrelevant, because the demand "fits in my pocket" precludes any kind of extensive i/o. Laptop and tablet are both compromises that compromise portability and extensive user input in different ways.

If MS could make a desktop-functional computer with a real keyboard and 27" viewing device that I could fold up and put in my pocket; that I could also ask which stop I'm supposed to get off while crammed among other subway riders; and that I could use as an electronic clipboard, I would be all over it. But outside of a Transformers movie, no such thing is possible. That Microsoft keeps trying to build it only reveals that they fail to understand optimization. It's the same reason Stanley sells a hell of a lot more screwdrivers than Leatherman sells multitools.

Re:Pick your poison

[R3d M3rcury]

Yes, but it is the Internet. Thus, you must have a car analogy.

Your 1993 Escort Wagon is a fun example. It's got some extra room for carrying grass seed or lots of groceries. It gets good gas mileage. As a 1993 vehicle, it probably produces more smog than a newer vehicle. It has no torque, so you don't want tow anything uphill with it.

But it hits a certain sweet spot--it does everything you want a car to do.

By your original statement, I would have one car for going fast. I would have another car for carrying groceries. I would have a third car for towing a boat or carrying heavy things. Realstically, that's not going to happen because cars are too expensive.

But do I want four different devices? Do I want desktop with a nice big screen and high-performance for working at home, a laptop for working on the go, a tablet for light-tasks while I sit on the couch, and a phone for when I'm out and about? A company like Apple, of course, says that's exactly what I want and they are more than willing to sell me each of those devices.

What Microsoft is trying to do is find that sweet spot that, in a car, is filled by your 1993 Escort Wagon. Something that will satisfy the largest number of people. A jack of all trades and a master of none, if you will.

Re:Pick your poison

[thegarbz]

That Microsoft keeps trying to build it only reveals that they fail to understand optimization. It's the same reason Stanley sells a hell of a lot more screwdrivers than Leatherman sells multitools.

Let me clarify something. I have a leatherman and it's a godsend at times. I think the real problem here is that the device is being compared to anything at all. I went through all the same things years ago:
Why do I need a camera on my phone, I have an SLR.
Why do I need a calendar and email on my phone, I have a laptop.
Why do I need a tablet, it's just a bigger phone.

This is kind of where we are now. I don't want to carry my laptop into meetings, but my tablet doesn't run windows. I don't want to carry my tablet in the field because the lack of stylus makes it too restrictive for taking decent notes.

This won't replace my laptop. It won't replace my tablet. It will augment it, and while I understand that a device which looks like it is doing the job of other devices can be perceived as trying to do everything, why not look at it as trying to do a set of narrow activities at which the other devices really suck?

Microsoft cannot fool all the people all the time

[jkrise]

Everybody went in for Windows as their favoutte desktop operating system a couple decades back. After XP, there is little to be gained from Microsoft's latter offerings in operating systems. So now we are seeing large migrations to Linux and larger numbers still sticking on with XP.

In the tablet marketplace, Microsoft is a recent entrant. iPad and Android tablets comfortably have more than 90% marketshare in this segment.

Microsoft started out with restrictions on what processor, screen size and memory can be offered by OEMs in tablet form factor, to try and prevent tablets eating away their desktop marketshare.

Then MS provided a convoluted method of delivering apps for tablet devices compared to desktop apps with similar functionality and architecture. Developers boycotted the entire Surface market as a result.

And the Surface is priced more than twice that of a laptop, despite the latter providing more usability and applications, once the OS is upgraded from 8 to 7. Yes, I meant upgraded, it wasn't a typo.

The moral of the story is You Cant Fool All The People All The Time, as Lincoln famously said. Remove the lock on the bootloader in all Surface tablet categories, Allow all Surfaces to connect to the Active Directory, Come up with more meaningful development tools and app for ARM Surface tablets, and lastly price it between $100 to $300 in varying configurations. People might be tempted to take notice.

Pull the plug on RT

[msobkow]

If Microsoft thinks their big selling point is compatability with Windows applications, then by all means they should pull the plug on RT.

As to the Surface Pro, I think it suffers from one big glaring flaw: it runs Windows applications.

That means using menus, right clicks, and other such interface behaviours that are far from natural for a tablet/touch screen interface. What is needed for a successful tablet is an ecosystem of applications that are built just for tablet use. All the gestures in the world won't make it easy to right-click with one button (your finger), and let's face it: most of the useful functions of a Windows application interface are provided by the right-click menus.

Even something so trivial as the toolbars and buttons/icons have to be upscaled for a touch interface, otherwise you get touches/clicks on the wrong interface widget. That which is easily clicked by an accurate device like a mouse or touchpad is notoriously hard to nail down with a fat finger.

Re:Pull the plug on RT

[thegarbz]

As to the Surface Pro, I think it suffers from one big glaring flaw: it runs Windows applications.

You're assuming everyone wants a tablet with laptop capabilities. Some of us want laptops with tablet capabilities.

Yes, the ability to run Windows applications is its biggest plus in my opinion. I finally have a full computer device minus the usual limiting app store ecosystem which if I'm on the go and need to take notes I can flip it over and start writing.

Ignoring the abortion that is metro Windows itself is still quite usable as a tablet with a stylus and One Note is a phenomenal piece of software (considering who wrote it).

Re:Microsoft cannot fool all the people all the ti

[Anonymous Coward]

He wrote it from the user's viewpoint. Not poweruser or developer.

For the average Joe, each Windows version changes everything but adds very few new things.

Re:Microsoft cannot fool all the people all the ti

[jkrise]

I can't believe how sentimental people were towards a junkpile like XP

Sentimental, eh? More like hard-nosed and very very practical and down to earth.
Will XP get my real useful application software running? YES.
Will my software run on 7 or 8? NO.

So, no sentiment towards Microsoft - simply stick with what works.

Stuff that works isn't junkpile; stuff that consumes more space but gets in the way of getting work done is a large pile of junk. So the adjective suits Windows 7 or 8, not XP.

You don't they are dead.

[Anonymous Coward]

They are killing off non-Intel as they didn't have an outside tool chain. They only really allowed HTML app development. It may have worked for the first iPhone, but instant death now.

A rising tide sinks all ships

[rcharbon]

No one wants Windows 8, even on the only device where it might be useful.

Surface Mini is the reason for the write-down

[benjymouse]

TFA - especially the headline - is grossly misleading click-bait.

The story behind the latest numbers are that Microsoft has taken a write-down on investment in development of the *Surface Mini*. They scrapped that device only days before launch. When you do that, you have to write off all sunk cost on design and development of that product line.

Thus, those accounting numbers say *nothing* about how Surface Pro 3 - or indeed how the Surface line in general is performing in the market. For all we know demand is good but not excellent.

Tablet sales are tanking and PC sales are climbing again. If customers start to view tablets as "not for real work" Surface Pro 3 could be *the* device which is a perfect combination (compromise?) of PC and tablet.

For all the ridicule, Windows 8 does in fact deliver on being both a tablet as well as a PC operating system. The problem was never the tablet part nor the PC part - the main problem (especially with 8.0) was the rather poor integration (and yes, the fact that they tried to funnel desktop users through the "tablet" part to pent up demand for apps and attract developers).

keyboard support still lacking in Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

As soon as googling reveals that Surface Pro 3 runs a mainstream Linux distro well, I'll consider one. (Apparently only keyboard support is hard.) In the meantime, no, I'm not interested in an Apple-style play where the hardware is wedded to the manufacturers OS.

Just wait till Windows 10

[gelfling]

A new post-Metro interface that requires you to use only your right finger. It doesn't have a start button or any app buttons and all the gestures are based on Serbo-Croation standard sign language.

Re:Can I run a Hackintosh distro?

[frinkster]

Of course you can run VMWare on the Surface Pro 3. The Core i5 has all the Intel virtualization technologies so you could go further than just VMWare if you wanted.

I needed a Windows machine for remote work and got the new 3. I find it to be a very nice machine. Not at all perfect, but I am quite impressed. And I have found that it has nearly replaced my iPad as an eBook reader. The large (for a tablet) 3:2 screen is fantastic for reading.

OneNote is a bit odd though. You get the touch-enabled version installed out of the box, which is great. But if you install Office on the machine, you then get OneNote 2013 as well. When you press the stylus button to instantly bring up OneNote, you get the touch-enabled version. But it seems that at other times, you are not quite sure which version will load. However, they are interoperable and they save the files in the same location, so it really doesn't matter which one loads. It's just odd, that's all. Maybe the next version of Office will combine the two versions.

Re:Too much cheap hardware out there

[frinkster]

Sure a Surface RT could work in education, even a Surface Pro 3 could work even better in education. But let's face it, education will buy a $150 Chromebook before a $1000 Surface Pro 3. Education will make due with a less useful device for that difference in change. Then Microsoft works with PC makers to create these Windows 8/ Bing OS machines to compete with the likes of Chromebook's for $250.

The Chromebook in education is a lot more than just a $150 laptop. It's a whole suite of apps and services, and all Google asks in return is to data mine the students for the rest of their lives.

Take a good look at the figures:

[Chris Mattern]

Over $2 billion for FY 2014. $409 million for the last quarter of 2014, which translates to a yearly pace of $409 million time four, or slightly over $1.6 billion. In other words, sales are falling.

Surface Mini could have been a contender

[tuppe666]

TFA - especially the headline - is grossly misleading click-bait.

No your incredible massacring of figures is grossly misleading. Ironically iPad sales and I suspect other high end tablets are failing. In context of this article and your post. It highlight why Microsoft foolishly in my opinion are not releasing a good value mini...albeit making windows free as in anti-user so others manufactures can. Small tablets and Phablets lets be honest tablets with phone functionality are growing substantially in fact Google(Nexus 6) and Apple(iPhone 6) are set to launch there own in 3.2.1...The minor raise in windows 8 comes from throwing its XP users under a bus without a lifeline. I am not sure if history will treat this as good idea retrospectively...especially with the growth in the chromebook market. It may satisfy investors but...

You may think the tablet delivers...but the rest of us(as in the world) don't and it is not for the massive investment on Microsoft's part...this is not the 1st generation its the 3rd and by every measure a failure. Perhaps they should get back to being a software company...the thing its monopoly matters in.

Re:People talk about Micro$oft as if they should b

[Maury Markowitz]

> Apple is all about the consumer space, and very little about business.
> Microsoft is all about the business space, and very little about the consumer

I'm not sure either company is happy about this, nor planned on it (not that you claimed either).

But of the two, which is in a better place? It seems business was perfectly happy with XP and 2007 running on older machines. There seems to be little reason for them to upgrade.

Consumers upgrade because they can and the products are low-end, but they don't buy software for $5000 a seat.

The crossover is the phone, and Apple's won that one hands down.

For now.

Surface Pro is not the problem ...

[Pinky's Brain]

The standard Surface line, or in other words the "we want to be Apple line" is the problem.

Re:Good showcase device, not much more

[Anonymous Coward]

>Microsoft actually used 8 to its full potential with their own design. It's the only place where 8.x actually makes total sense.

Sadly, no. 8 (and 7) are still very power stupid. They constantly do stupid shit like run indexers and eager caches that run your battery down fast. Throw win8 on a mac book pro and watch as that 9 (okay, 5 in reality) hours drops down to 2.

Re:Love my Pro

[Bruinwar]

I use it much the same as the Android tablet I used to use. The keyboard helps also but is certainly not the reason I like it so much. It's FAST! That is why I love it. No more tap tap tap fuckmeyoupieceofshitadroidLOAD! Plus I don't have to be forced into using bullshit mobile sites that are difficult to deal with & have no option to "view full site". IMO most apps (iOS/Android) are useless, the full web site is usually much better. The Surface Pro also runs my employer's Cisco VPN client, useful for logging directly on to my machine at work when some light stuff needs to be done.

Re: Microsoft cannot fool all the people all the t

[Anonymous Coward]

I totally agree. Windows changes things from version to version for the sake of change. Where is the value add from going to new versions of windows? Why don't they quit messing with the UX and polish and harden the OS.

Silly figure

[jbolden]

If one reads the computerworld article it makes far weaker claims than this post. It is talking about revenue and cost of revenue. It isn't clear about inventory on hand so to get a maximum figure it marks the manufactured but unsold Surface 3's at $0. Part of a $733 million charge came from the Surface mini (developed and never shipped). There never was any claim remotely as strong as Microsoft having lost close to $1.7b in a meaningful sense. This figure is coming from:

a) Whisper down the lane where articles are summarizing each other getting successively less qualified in their calculations.
b) Accounting being boring so the article writers not understanding what the original analyst (Jan Dawson at Jackdaw Research) was doing.

Re:Microsoft cannot fool all the people all the ti

[netsavior]

I worked for a megolithic bank in 2013... Our budget for migrating away from Windows XP before the april 2014 deadline was $400,000,000. Four hundred million dollars. There wasn't even a line-item for "Windows 7 Licensing." This was all custom, ancient, poorly maintained, poorly written, poorly understood software migration.

You can bet your ass the executive leadership was "nostalgic" about XP.

Surface = Ballmer's legacy

[jsepeta]

Ballmer was a wizard at making money by cranking up licensing, and losing money on hardware (RROD anyone?)

Windows 8 touch interface

[denisbergeron]

I'm writing this on a windows 8.1 tablet (HP) and I'm also a user of Android Tablet, Ipad, and some others phones/touch interface.

A lot of people in this site and others sites point that windows 8(.1) are too much touch oriented to be good on a desktop, in fact, windows 8(.1) is also not ready to be used on a touch interface. Touch interface is not only a thing about how too choose the app you want to use, but also how to use, write, select, draw, etc. without a mouse and a keyboard, and on these points, none of the windows 8(.1) software are efficace here, they are 10 years late on any others interface, including the old windows CE/mobile interface that I had use for more than 5 years.

It never goes away

[dbIII]

The real problem is the cost of license compliance.

I had some shakedown artist apparently "approved by Microsoft" hassle me about compliance last year (2013) and their evidence was a licence for NT4 purchased in 1998 which expired in 2000. Sorting out licencing shit from fifteen years ago is almost something to call in geologists to deal with.

Re:Microsoft cannot fool all the people all the ti

[netsavior]

Software package written in 1998, during a boom, does not need a single patch until it cannot be used for reasons external to the company in 2013, during the tail end of a bust.

I mean, how do you plan for that? Executives in that company had no idea. Software was like "buildings" to them back in 1998, you build a corporate office space, spend 20 million bucks, then you just have to change lightbulbs for 30 years. They never expected the foundation to suddenly change into a different material out from under the building, and why would they, that isn't how engineering works.

I mean, I think they are finally coming around, but honestly, they went from being the only commercial mainframes in the country, to being huge commercial software consumers without changing their working methodologies, and in april they all had to pay for that...

Still it was probably a lot cheaper than "sticking with the times" for 15 years where they essentially were not paying the "cycle cost" of modern software.

pull the plug?

[roc97007]

> Should Microsoft pull the plug on the tablet?

No. Why should they? It looks like the Surface is making money, it's just not penetrating the market to the extent of its competitors. A product doesn't have to pillage and burn all competitors to be viable. It has to make money. It appears to be doing so.

I'm saying this from the standpoint of never wanting to own one, for several reasons I won't go into now. But obviously some people like them. That's why there are different kinds of products, because different people have different needs.

Surface Pro 3 fails to suck

[DigitalSorceress]

I've been very put off by Windows 8, but I kept finding that I needed to support it and test against it so I took the plunge and got a Surface Pro 3 - it's really quite a nice machine. Windows 8 is bearable when using this as a tablet (though I use Classic Shell to put back a real start menu and have disabled that horrid ribbon UI on Windows Explorer)

So far, it's fitting a nice niche: ultra portable small notebook that can work quite well as a tablet and with enough battery life that I can walk away from my desk but have access to my business critical apps.

Visual Studio runs well on it and I can test/troubleshoot win 8 apps.

Basically, it's failing to suck... at least for what I'm using it for. That's pretty high praise from me since I have been such a hater of Win 8... this hardware actually makes it tolerable.

Re:Microsoft cannot fool all the people all the ti

[Yunzil]

Will my software run on 7 or 8? NO.

Sorry about your crappy software. I have yet to find something that won't run on 8.

Writing this on a Surface Pro 3

[coldsalmon]

I got a Surface Pro 3 last month, and I totally love it. I do a lot of document editing, and the stylus makes it very easy. After a week of using OneNote, I was completely off paper. In fact, I'm on vacation right now doing business from my hammock, and I'm more productive than I usually am in my office. The screen is almost the same size as a piece of paper, and the high-res display makes it pleasant for reading. The fact that it's so easy to split the screen between two different documents makes it extremely easy and intuitive to input edits. I can't really say whether it's good for entertainment or gaming, because I have never used it for that. But for the office, it's perfect for me. I started using Linux in 2004, when MS was at its worst. Since then, they've improved tremendously and have won back my business. I still run Debian on my office server of course.

I got an Android tablet for the office last year, but I ended up never using it; doing anything useful was incredibly awkward. The Surface Pro 3 is what I hoped that tablet would be. The thing is, MS can afford to throw $1.7 billion at a problem until they get it right, and they have now gotten it right.