Slashdot Mirror
Web Trolls Winning As Incivility Increases
mdsolar sends this story from the NY Times:
The Internet may be losing the war against trolls. At the very least, it isn't winning. And unless social networks, media sites and governments come up with some innovative way of defeating online troublemakers, the digital world will never be free of the trolls' collective sway. That's the dismal judgment of the handful of scholars who study the broad category of online incivility known as trolling, a problem whose scope is not clear, but whose victims keep mounting. "As long as the Internet keeps operating according to a click-based economy, trolls will maybe not win, but they will always be present," said Whitney Phillips, a lecturer at Humboldt State University and the author of This Is Why We Can't Have Nice Things, a forthcoming book about her years of studying bad behavior online. "The faster that the whole media system goes, the more trolls have a foothold to stand on. They are perfectly calibrated to exploit the way media is disseminated these days."
Just respond with a "U mad Bro?"
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
easy way for the 'government' to drastically cut down on internet trolling: stop funding it.
or didyou think that operation mockingbird was a one-time deal?
I'm fine with sites regulating trolls. I'm less fine with government curtailing freedom of expression, regardless of how offensive it may be.
https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere
The only reason trolls win is we give them the reaction that they are looking for. If people just ignored them more often instead of getting all bent out of shape, the trend would go away. Trolls would quickly get bored because they won't have an outlet for their frustration. Trolls are nothing more than school yard bullies that never quite grew up.
The scope of the problem isn't clear, the goal is ill-defined. What, exactly, are trolls winning?
I think the only one "winning" anything here is the author trying to sell her book by engaging in much the same inflammatory business as the trolls she purported to study.
Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
... is often another person's legitimate opinion. If large sites, the government, and advertisers get to determine what is "trolling", we're toast. So much for the "I may disagree with your opinion, but I will defend to the death your right to express it". The new Intarweb - 100% Politically Correct, no dissent allowed, citizen. I for one won't welcome our new anti-troll overlords.
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
Fucking Obama and the libtards made this happen. It wouldn't happen if the sheeple would just wake up and elect Rand Paul as king/President. THEN maybe we'd live in a utopian world where we hand out AR-15s to every baby as soon they come out of the birth canal. Gee, that'd be so sweet.
Wait, what were we talking about?
I like the suggestion that's floating around for hard-news sites to actually drop user comments. User comments for major media sites (and Huff Po for that matter) are nothing but pure unadulterated drivel. They serve no purpose to anyone BUT the trolls. Take away their candy.
A troll is still a person, and you can beat a person with a sack full of oranges.
TFA didn't target the random goatse cluttering up comment systems, but they've targeted real evil trolls harming people, obviously a reaction to Zelda William's quitting to twitter.
For me, its funny when a companies naming competition gets trolled, but targeted campaigns against innocent people are truly too much even for me.
I would normally agree that people get offended too easily, but that's only when people express their honest opinion.
Trolls are a different matter; they only do it for the lulz. Their whole purpose is to create discord. It's a pointless, unproductive waste of time, and the fact that people get jollies out of deliberately aggravating other people bespeaks of a certain level of sociopathy.
Look back up at my post, now look back down, you're on the Internet. Now look back up. I'm a signature.
This problem is already solved. It's called the "ignore user " button. Push it and you no longer see the posts from the offending troll. Troll can see your posts, but you can't see theirs. So troll has unpleasant (for a troll) experience of seeing a conversation carried on as though what he was posting simply didn't exist, because it didn't for anyone who regarded him as a troll.
If a troll is like porn, we know it when we see it, then this solution works very well. Everyone sees and ignores the troll, depriving the troll of their motivation for trolling in the first place.
The only problem we have is sites don't use the available technology.
I have been on sites where this virtually eliminated the troll problem. Of course the automated accounts that are spamming viagra require something else, but that is not what the article was complaining about. The article was complaining about civility.
I really have to wonder if there are ulterior motivations at work here. Trolls are the new "we must save our children" rallying cry, an argument designed to force people into ID ing themselves, tagging themselves as "legitimate" so they can be better tracked and monetized. I feel like these pieces are set pieces, ready to roll out as soon as their beneficiaries and creators think their might be some temporary, rising sentiment against anonymity on the web.
Current example- Robin William's daughter's recent Twitter experience.
Sure, a troll gets one off but that is all anyone will see of him.
There is no free speech without anonymity and giving it up because some asshole made someone cry is ceding my freedom to assholes. That wont' be happening.
The only way to defeat a troll (like the parent) is to ignore it. When you find yourself thinking "what the hell is wrong with this guy?" just let it go.
I would argue that some amount of trolling in society is necessary to keep the sanity of the society as a whole.
1. Place immature people (of any physical age) in an anonymous, no consequences environment.
2. Give them the ability to address people whom they would never have the opportunity to approach outside of a virtual environment.
3. Supply a conduit such as Twitter or Facebook or email that requires very little effort compared to writing and mailing a physical letter.
The result is completely predictable.
Trolls are a different matter; they only do it for the lulz. Their whole purpose is to create discord. It's a pointless, unproductive waste of time, and the fact that people get jollies out of deliberately aggravating other people bespeaks of a certain level of sociopathy.
I'm not sure you can make any generalization about trolls. I think it would be a more interesting study if they attempted to study
why trolls exists. My guess is that alot of the trolls are infrequent. They've had a bad day, drunk, etc.. There was even
a slashdot article recently about someone being shocked that their vandalism they did when they were drunk in college was
still there 10 years later. There are also people who are using it to vent some non-politically correct opinion that they are
unable to talk about in real life and probably a few who are out to watch the world burn but my guess is that the latter category
is actually the minority not the majority. On slashdot, for instance, what percentage of the AC are probably people with
accounts that just click the "post anonymously" button because they are stating a controversial position or otherwise don't
want their nickname associated with that one particular comment.
It's a pointless, unproductive waste of time, and the fact that people get jollies out of deliberately aggravating other people bespeaks of a certain level of sociopathy.
Nonsense. The kind of amusement that comes from trolling fulfills a need. Not unlike other wastes of time. such as watching professional sports and pleasure reading, there is a gratification from being a troll. Crafting your skills and taking it to the next level fills the troll with a sense of accomplishment. There are metrics involved in this pursuit just like any other to measure the effectiveness of the troll. I won't tell you what my goals are or what results give me the most satisfaction as a successful troll but there is gratification nonetheless.
-Anonymous Troll.
Thank goodness we don't have any here, otherwise they'd jump all over this.
Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
Microsoft tried to create a walled garden of its' own for advertisers in the '90s - Microsoft Sidewalk. "The memo described a series of online city guides providing local arts and entertainment listings designed to capture a healthy slice of the $66 billion local advertising market. Microsoft Chief Executive Bill Gates deemed the approach Ãoefriction-free capitalism,à but Nathan Myhrvold, MicrosoftÃ(TM)s chief technology officer, was more direct. He spoke about the software giantÃ(TM)s intention of collecting a Ãoevigà from its web site. Vig, or vigorish, is a gambling term for a bookmakerÃ(TM)s cut of the action." Forbes. This was about the time Microsoft was musing about getting into the ISP business in "certain locations", trying to create a vertical monopoly.
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
Trolling is necessary evil and the last line of defense against monolithic group thinking. Humans are hard-wired to seek consensus and to avoid conflict, both are beneficial traits, but when combined can and do lead to worst kinds of groupthink. Our ideas and understanding, be it social sciences, morals and religion, or even hard sciences are only as good as out ability to question it.
For example, Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster is a trolling organization, but almost everyone here would agree that what they do can be categorized as "greater good".
This has been going on for 20 years. Perhaps more if you include Usenet news groups.
Dealing with trolls on the internet is good practice for dealing with them in real life. Think of it at the next meeting where someone is trying to distract you from the argument you're making by going for an emotional reaction. Incivility may or may not be increasing, both on the internet and in real life, but it's better to develop the social skills to deal with it than to always be protected from it. Additionally, trolling trolls is good practice for being able to make your points in real life when encountering such obstructionism. It's called "helping them dig their own grave." Never interrupt your nemesis when they're making a mistake, and all that.
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
Whatever dude. There's no such thing as trolling. It's thin skinned treehuggers like you that go and complain to thier facebook "friends" that are the real problem with the internet. Grow a pair or go back to facist Nazi-Russia. And take Obama with you. We don't need him spreading any more lies and ebola to our children. And another thing, Janeway was twice the captain that Kirk ever was.
For Christs sake... stop misusing the word "Troll"
It's has a very specific meaning, but everyone uses it now as a derogatory term for anyone on the internet they disagree with. That is not what a troll is.
A Troll, very specifically, lurks, and posts to try and get you to over-react. A troll will rarely overtly offend you. Often a troll will be on your side! Egging you on, to get you to blow up at others. Sometimes a troll will simply IM you to point out other people that are deserving of your rather. A troll is an instigator, troublemaker, rabblerouser, etc...
What a troll is not, is a contrarian. I'm a contrarian, I like to argue my point. I seek out those I disagree with or subjects I feel are incorrect (Like this post!) and I argue my point. I like having people disagree with me, and like to refine my arguments. It's something I enjoy. Contrarians enjoy debate.
Trolls do not care about debate, they care about the emotional anguish of their victim. I rarely, if ever, see a real troll anymore. There used to be clubs of them all over the net, but not really anymore. You can find them on Reddit at times. A troll, for example, may be African American and go to an African American forum and argue for white supremacy. Not because he supports it, but because he knows that's what will get a reaction.
And in regards to the main point of this article... It's total BS. Argument and Debate are good things. The internet is still relatively new. People that couldn't talk before, can now. That's great. By its very nature internet debate is non-violent, which is fantastic. Let the debate continue.
Priest Vito Cornelius: I try to serve life. And you seem to want to destroy it.
Zorg: Oh, Father. You're so wrong. Let me explain.
[Puts and empty water glass on his desk]
Zorg: Life, which you so nobly serve, comes from destruction, disorder and chaos. Now take this empty glass. Here it is: peaceful, serene, boring. But if it is destroyed
[Pushes the glass off the table. It shatter on the floor, and several small machines come out to clean it up]
Zorg: Look at all these little things! So busy now! Notice how each one is useful. A lovely ballet ensues, so full of form and color. Now, think about all those people that created them. Technicians, engineers, hundreds of people, who will be able to feed their children tonight, so those children can grow up big and strong and have little teeny children of their own, and so on and so forth. Thus, adding to the great chain of life. You see, father, by causing a little destruction, I am in fact encouraging life. In reality, you and I are in the same business.
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
TFA assumes all 'trolls' are doing so just for the "lulz"
that's certainly not the case...these articles written by tech illiterates are ruining our industry (or at least making it difficult by not covering the problem properly)
Public Relations and other media companies pay grey-hat contractors to "boost their social media presence" meaning post fake comments by fake accounts or just by having paid monkeys doing it
Disquss & the facebook.com plugin for sites both have this problem
even here on /., look at a thread about Uber, there will be many high UID comments from random-named Google+ accounts linked to /.'s system
if you're examining online "trolls" and you don't factor in sock puppets, you're missing half the problem
Thank you Dave Raggett
When you're interacting with a proficient troll, by the time you realize you're being trolled, it is too late.
Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
The role of satire is to comfort the afflicted by afflicting the comfortable, or so Doonesbury said. Trolling does not do that. It is either cheap attention grabbing for shit and giggles, or more often, an attempt to intimidate a certain group of people into leaving the Internet.
If you disagree then explain to me the subtle social commentary of posting photoshopped pictures of Robin Williams' body to his daughter. Or bombarding a feminist website with gore, and rape porn.
The majority of trolling these days is about bullying people of opposing viewpoints into submission. They only seek their victims' attention in order to affect that.
The jester is not a psychopath. The joker is. There are trolls and there are griefers. One laughs at misfortune, the other thrives on it. There needs to be a distinction before unjust laws might be enacted under which nobody will be able to experience Natalie Portman's hot grits: that would be the real tragedy.
I do it on occasion to fulfill the need to pick a fight. Sometimes the aggression just comes surging forth and rather than go down to a bar or a club and risk life, limb, and jail time, I come on here or on other sites to troll. Not saying I'm proud of it, but getting into a rhetorical fight is almost as satisfying as getting into a physical fight. I don't care about politics or philosophy, I just focus on some guy (usually another troll) who's a little too certain for my tastes, and go at it. Then afterwards, win or lose (and I lose a LOT more than I win, but that isn't the point), I feel better and I'm able to rejoin the real world and be decent and human and polite.
I'm not saying I'm evil or sociopathic, I'm just saying I troll because sometimes a man has just gotta get into a fight. Given that, sometimes I think the trolls over on Jezebel are doing the same thing... they're not necessarily misogynistic so much as itching for a fight with their female counterparts.
Here's to hot beer, cold women, and Glaswegian kisses for all.
Somehow I knew that this was going to be the NYT complaning about 4chan and uncivil speech coming from certain types of people and not all uncivil speech, of course. If you're at all familiar with the "social justice" crowd, you probably know that they don't believe that the rules of civility apply to them. Asking them to watch their language or to be considerate is usually denounced as attempts to "control" them and to "silence" them. Those who are the targets of their policing, the ones whom they "call out", though, are just supposed to sit there, shup up and listen while the "approved trolls" from the social justice world dress them down. This is of course understood already by many on slashdot. I saw a commenter abvove approve of trolling by followers of the flying spag monster. That's fine actually but I wonder if the commenter is also ok with trolling by the those who wish to defend christianity in vigorous manner. I rethorically wonder, that is.
"I would normally agree that people get offended too easily, but that's only when people express their honest opinion. "
It isn't just disagreeing. You may disagree with me all you want. The problem is that for a lot of people things like solar power, antinuclear, open source, and many other subjects seem to have taken the place of a religion for people.
I once had a commenter on slashdot say that they wanted to lock me in their basement and rape me. "I did reply that I was happily married and that was really not my thing".
The subject of the discussion was Solar vs Nuclear as a baseload solution!
Being a 49 year old male programer that threat was easy for me to dismiss. Had I been a 17 year old girl or boy that had been a victim of sexual assault in the past it would have been terrifying.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
Posting AC because of the "C" aspect in AC:
I have posted a number of times as AC, mainly as a devil's advocate, or taking an unpopular stance and defending it, even though it would strip my real account of every single karma point I ever have earned.
Crazily enough, I've been on /. long enough that yes, there are trolls, and one in every 50 posts gets an AC post attached which is pretty bad... but all and all, the replies have been fairly constructive, even though there are disagreements in how to do things.
Of course, there are third rail topics that one can't disagree with (such as the demand by the general masses for undying love for Snowden, Manning, and Ames), and mindless anti-US digs left and right, but all and all, /. is probably one of the sanest forums out there that allows user comments.
It doesn't matter what trolls do. In a print media like this, they are too easy to ignore. People need to control their reactions. What we are looking at is an attempt to censor and control who can say what. This is no different than the FCC's "seven dirty words". We needs the trolls to make the rules unenforceable. All the freedoms we have now are because of the troublemakers.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
Exactly.
The fact that "online" is tacked on to the end is the give away that Phillips is talking out of her ass. Just like every other "on a computer" makes it new and unique claim, online trolling is just more of the same. We all know people who do it every day in real life. We have national personalities like Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, Howard Stern, and Jerry Springer. Heck, the entire Fox network is dedicated to trolling. People think that Fox is a right wing network. They only think that because they are being successfully trolled.
The only way to not lose is to not play.
And that's the mistake the people make: they think (and I use the term loosely - there's no actual thinking involved) the trolls matter. They think they can educate people who know full well what crap they'll shoveling. They think they can teach a lesson to someone who knows exactly how much the internet doesn't matter. They think they can somehow win.
And other people try to make a living advising them on how to do it. This entire article is, itself, nothing more than a subtle troll, trying to get people worked up over something that somebody is selling a "solution" to.
Eventually, the internet will teach people to stop being so overly sensitive about shit that doesn't matter. If nothing else, those who can't learn that lesson will all have strokes and die.
Of course, there are third rail topics that one can't disagree with (such as the demand by the general masses for undying love for Snowden, Manning, and Ames), and mindless anti-US digs left and right, but all and all, /. is probably one of the sanest forums out there that allows user comments.
That's a main reason I continue to come to this site after all these years. The comments are often intelligent and worth reading. Contrast that with most other sites where people just get their stupid on.
"What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)