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Tesla Removes Mileage Limits On Drive Unit Warranty Program

Ars Technica reports that Elon Musk today wrote that Tesla will remove mileage limits on its warranty policy for all Tesla Model S drive units. The warranty, which will still span eight years, won't have a cap on the number of owners for each vehicle. People who purchased Teslas before today were told that the warranty period for the drive unit expired after eight years or once the car logged over 125,000 miles. The revised warranty applies to new vehicles and Model S cars that are already on the road. The article mentions that quite a few Tesla owners have had to have their drive units replaced; out of warranty, that runs about $15,000. Musk's announcement acknowledges that the change may cost the company some money, but says he's "confident it will work out well in the long run."

43 of 174 comments (clear)

  1. So there is a problem... by sinij · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So there is a problem and they are avoiding recall?

    1. Re:So there is a problem... by rmdingler · · Score: 5, Insightful
      No sir.

      There's a problem and they're handling it immediately and responsibly,

      instead of pursuing the GM/Toyota strategy of ignoring it and hoping it goes away.

      --
      Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

      Ernest Hemingway

    2. Re:So there is a problem... by sinij · · Score: 4, Insightful

      $15000 is within realm of new "crate engine", needing that at only 125,000 miles would be considered a serious quality defect with a traditional auto. If memory serves me right, most recent example was BMW nikasil engine block issue.

    3. Re:So there is a problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No sir.

      There's a problem and they're handling it immediately and responsibly,

      instead of pursuing the GM/Toyota strategy of ignoring it and hoping it goes away.

      GM hardly ignored their problem - they actively tried to cover it up, probably all the way back to 2005 or 2006, maybe even with government help, especially once they became Government Motors:

      GM Misses Red Flags From Rental Car Canaries on Crashes

    4. Re:So there is a problem... by Lumpy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Tesla is sending a message.

      Their message is, "we are not GM, we care about the customer instead of trying to ignore and rip off the customer"

      If a company stands behind their product they offer a very long life warranty. If they know their product is crap, you get a short warranty. There is a reason that GM cars come with 36,000 mile 3 year warranties..

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    5. Re:So there is a problem... by Sorny · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Tesla's Warranty is a bit better than what GM offers, true. However, it is not hugely better excepting the unlimited mileage for the powertrain, and 8 year battery warranty. That said, I've got some concerns with Tesla's battery warranty being that I live in MN.

      "In addition, damage resulting from the following activities are not covered under this Battery
      Limited Warranty:
      â Exposing the vehicle to ambient temperatures above 140ÂF (60ÂC) or below -22ÂF (-30ÂC) for
      more than 24 hours at a time;"

      That bit scares me. -22 F temps are normal for us in the winter, and I don't heat my garage. Thus, the car would be exposed to such temps for over 24hrs at least once a year. Kind of puts a crimp in my plans to buy a Tesla 3 when it comes out; I can already make the justification to buy a model S based on my driving needs, but I refuse to pay more in car payments than my mortgage.

      From Chevy's website:

      Warranty Coverage
      Bumper-to-Bumper (including tires):
      Coverage is for the first 3 years or 36,000 miles, whichever comes first.
      Powertrain:
      Coverage is for the first 5 years or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first.
      Sheet Metal:
      Corrosion coverage is for the first 3 years or 36,000 miles, whichever comes first.
      Rust-through coverage is for the first 6 years or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first.

      From Tesla:

      Subject to separate coverage for certain parts and the exclusions and limitations described in this
      New Vehicle Limited Warranty, the Basic Vehicle Limited Warranty covers the repair or
      replacement necessary to correct defects in the materials or workmanship of any parts
      manufactured or supplied by Tesla that occur under normal use for a period of 4 years or 50,000
      miles (80,000 km), whichever comes first.

      Supplemental Restraint System Limited Warranty
      Subject to the exclusions and limitations described in this New Vehicle Limited Warranty, the SRS
      Limited Warranty covers the repair or replacement necessary to correct defects in the materials or
      workmanship of the vehicleâ(TM)s seat belts or air bag system manufactured or supplied by Tesla that
      occur under normal use for a period of 5 years or 60,000 miles (100,000 km), whichever comes
      first.

      --
      OSX pwns.
    6. Re:So there is a problem... by Ted+Cabeen · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The $15k charge is a theoretical charge back-calculated from insurance settlements. It does not include any core rebate for returning the old drive train. Since no owner has owned the car for even the current 4 year warranty, we have no information on what Tesla would charge for a drive train replacement, swap or any other non-accident generated repair.

    7. Re:So there is a problem... by pslytely+psycho · · Score: 2, Interesting

      How difficult and expensive would it be to put rudimentary heating in your garage for just those (hopefully not too many) days per year that this would be a problem?

      Here in eastern Washington the temperature rarely gets that low (maybe once per decade) but I do a lot of work in my garage, fortunately as it is attached I just ran a four inch branch off the central heating and opened it about an hour before I wanted to work. It wasn't toasty, but it was bearable and added almost nothing to my heating bill.

      --
      Donald Trump, on a crusade to make Nixon look respectable
    8. Re:So there is a problem... by Ted+Cabeen · · Score: 4, Informative

      The -22F is not a problem, as long as the car is plugged in when left for prolonged periods. At well above that temperature, the battery management system will kick in and heat the battery to keep it within safe temperatures. Now, technically, they could probably disclaim coverage for that, but it seems unlikely if the battery management system does what it's supposed to do.

    9. Re:So there is a problem... by beelsebob · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Not really, in fact, 125,000 miles is a pretty long way after you'd expect to see major issues with most of the seals on the engine, and quite possibly complete failure on some cars.

    10. Re:So there is a problem... by Chuckstar · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The point was that only the GM cars have the problem that heavy stuff attached to the key can turn your car off in the middle of driving down the road. It's especially a problem with rental cars, because they have heavy stuff attached to the keys as a matter of course.

    11. Re:So there is a problem... by Richy_T · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Actually, it sounds more like drive unit failures are happening more often than expected and are so expensive that it could cause them some serious bad press so they are eating the cost (which is likely actually a small fraction of what the out of warranty cost to the customer would be) of folding it into the warranty.

      Not that I'm ragging on Tesla or anything. I just think your analysis may be the reverse of the actual situation

    12. Re:So there is a problem... by beltsbear · · Score: 4, Funny

      Leave the Tesla plugged in, it will take care of itself.

    13. Re:So there is a problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Then he shouldn't buy one. We're all agreed. For those of you in places where it gets below -22, and where you will consider buying an 80k car but not putting minor heat and an insulated door into your garage, best not to buy one. For the few remaining people where that doesn't apply, you can still consider getting a Tesla.

    14. Re:So there is a problem... by AK+Marc · · Score: 2

      That bit scares me. -22 F temps are normal for us in the winter, and I don't heat my garage.

      Odd, in Alaska, nearly everyone had a heated garage. Though the difference between a garage at 55 and 75 is about $1000 a month, so they aren't kept toasty warm, they will still get the car out of -22 every 10 hours on work days.

    15. Re:So there is a problem... by AK+Marc · · Score: 2

      You are making the assumption that his garage is connected to his house and that he has an insulated garage door.

      I have lived in houses that had neither of these features.

      In Minnesota? Insulated garage doors is $10 of styrofoam. And I've seen lots of detached garages, in warmer climes. But in the cold areas, people don't like to have to run outside to get something from the garage. Everyone would insulate the garage walls as if it were a house wall, and the door would be insulated with PS foam at a minimum.

    16. Re:So there is a problem... by Grishnakh · · Score: 2

      >You are making the assumption that his garage is connected to his house and that he has an insulated garage door.

      Then he should buy one. If he can afford a $100k car, he can afford to build himself a new luxury house with an attached garage and insulated garage door, plus granite countertops, ethernet wiring, a hot tub, and a home theater room, and a few acres of land.

      If he can't afford to build or buy a house with an attached garage, then he's not in the market for a Tesla.

    17. Re:So there is a problem... by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Assuming that the car is plugged in to charge at night it will heat the battery to keep the temperature at an acceptable level.

      I wonder what people with gasoline and diesel vehicles do? Lessee.........

      Why, they use engine block heaters.

      They use battery heaters.

      They have outlets on parking meters to plug these devices in.

      Heck, before the weather warmed up, I had block and battery heaters on my vehicles in Pennsylvania.

      I've heard that once upon a time they would start small fires under diesel tractors to wam them up to start, but can't confirm that

      Or, they'd just leave them running all the time.

      So please spare us the idea that the Tesla is a precious little snowflake that cannot handle the cold like those big tough Internal combustion engines. At upper Minnesota temps, all vehicles need some thermal considerations.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    18. Re:So there is a problem... by damn_registrars · · Score: 2

      You are making the assumption that his garage is connected to his house and that he has an insulated garage door.

      And you all are making the assumption that he even has a garage

      Actually, in the comment that got this part going the author said

      -22 F temps are normal for us in the winter, and I don't heat my garage

      In MN the word "garage" has a rather specific meaning; a minimum of 4 walls (one of which has a door that a car can drive through) and a ceiling. Now, a garage in MN may - or may not - be heated or insulated depending on a wide variety of factors. Many are also attached to houses (or even tucked under houses) which generally makes them a bit less expensive to regulate temperature in.

      But nonetheless the poster did specifically mention having a garage.

      --
      Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
    19. Re:So there is a problem... by beelsebob · · Score: 2

      No, not really. In the UK at least, a car that's done over 100,000 miles is considered basically worthless. They sell for £3-500 each, because their engine and transmission is likely to be on its last legs.

    20. Re:So there is a problem... by Teancum · · Score: 2

      That is relatively recent to have that happen though. Most cars in the 1970's and earlier would almost never make 100k miles, and the odometers never even counted up beyond 100k miles either. It was the Japanese manufacturers (Toyota in particular) that started to push the endurance limits of automobiles and the American manufacturers had to follow.

      In the semi-tractor market, those engines used to get only about 100k miles as well, but now it is pretty typical in the industry, with proper maintenance, to get the engines over 1 million miles before they need to be replaced. A truck that has gone a million miles likely needs to be replaced anyway.

    21. Re:So there is a problem... by Guspaz · · Score: 2

      You got modded as funny, but it's not supposed to be. The Tesla has a battery heater that will kick in to keep the battery from getting too cold, and leaving it plugged in will avoid power drain from that.

    22. Re:So there is a problem... by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 4, Informative

      Tesla also uses waste heat from the inverter and electric motor. A gasoline powered car also gets less milage in very cold weather. Tesla loses 15-20% of the range in very cold climates which is not all that significant.

      Glad you brough that up. Cold weather plays havoc with gasoline, forcing the manufacturers to reformulate. The biggest change is addition of butanol, which will allow the engine to start in very cold weather. But butanol really wants to be in the gaseous state in warmer weather, and evaporates out of gasoline in the summer really quickly - a plastic gas can of winter grade gasoline gets rather "bulgy" in the summer. The butanol is a large part of why cars get less gas milage in the winter, often mistakenly totally attributed to ethanol. Ethanol has a gas milage penalty, also, before that gets added to the topic.

      See, this is why I get really weary of all the hate bestowed on the Teslas. Any issue at all is amplified into ridiculous heights, in order to discredit them. We have a huge amount of infrastructure in place, and many accomodations made for internal combustion engines, including different fuel configurations just to keep the damn things running. At all, and the configurations are not terribly compatible. That winter gas will evaporate on you in the summer, and starting in -30 with a tankful of summer gas will have you running for the ether as your fingers get frostbit. Does the Tesla perhaps use a different form of electricity in different seasons?

      But keeping that Tesla plugged in when it's really cold is just too damned inconvenient even when it's supposed to be plugged in to recharge anyway. When they need to plug in their internal combustion engine heaters also. Umm, the problem here? It's not the Tesla, it's people that hate them grasping at straws for talking points, and forgetting that their own favorite propulsion mechanism requires a whole lot of tweaking to keep running.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
  2. Are there any reasons... by cosmin_c · · Score: 3, Interesting

    ... that can be given that Elon Musk isn't one of the best humans out there? Let me elaborate a bit. In an age of chasing profits and cut-throat competition and where the most ruthless are getting rich, there are some people chasing another type of enrichment. And this comes after giving up on patents. I don't know this man, but it'd be an honour to shake his hand. I simply got nothing that could do justice. Nikola Tesla would indeed be proud.

    1. Re:Are there any reasons... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You clearly have never had to deal with the Hell that is PayPal. He's still deep in the Karma hole for that one.

    2. Re:Are there any reasons... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Did you just seriously compare Steve Jobs to Elon Musk?

      Steve Jobs wasn't exactly a saint. He redefined "walled garden". But if you're IN the walled garden, I can see how you'd be deluded in to thinking that's ok.

    3. Re: Are there any reasons... by killerzax · · Score: 5, Informative

      You read wrong; the service is not necessary to keep the warranty.

    4. Re:Are there any reasons... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      More like damage control if you ask me.

      From an engineering standpoint though, how can you screw up a electric motor connected to a fixed one speed transmission?
      That Edmunds needed THREE replacement units within 30,000 miles.
      Let's not pronounce Henry Ford, the second coming, as yet.

    5. Re:Are there any reasons... by jrumney · · Score: 2

      He is trying to build up a company from nothing to compete with the big 3 in just a few years. Having rumors of expensive repair bills looming at the end of the warranty period is not conducive to building market share, so this is nothing more than a sensible business decision (assuming only a small minority of drive units are actually failing).

    6. Re:Are there any reasons... by rmdingler · · Score: 3, Insightful
      People fuck up.

      Things go unexpectedly wrong as a matter of course in everyday life, let alone in the midst of innovation, since redefining the norm is a process fraught with a high failure rate.

      Owning it, and retroactively covering models no longer affected by factory warranty? That's the kind of shit you can easily get behind.

      --
      Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

      Ernest Hemingway

    7. Re:Are there any reasons... by DexterIsADog · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I see Elon Musk as a sort of Pablo Escobar, Gaining insane profits over crooked system and other's suffering, Who then tries to create a new PR image of himself as a great man. Remember, I don't think ether one is doing it for cathartic reason but instead to boost their egos through better public image hoping to secure a good spot in the history books. Just like Carnegie and Rockefeller...

      You clearly don't know shit about Carnegie if you can compare Musk with that bastard.

    8. Re:Are there any reasons... by WindBourne · · Score: 2

      LOL. You should have read a bit more.
      2 of those were changed because edmunds THOUGHT that they MIGHT hear a rattle and that it was the drive unit. Basically, only one was real, and it was for the gearbox.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  3. To make it clear by Ecuador · · Score: 3, Informative

    Because the summary sort of makes it sound like a lot of people had to pay for a $15000 replacement: The article says that many people have had to change their drive unit. It does not say specifically that they had to change it out of warranty and out of pocket. Given how new the Model S is and that the existing policy was for 125,000 miles anyway, I suspect it would be very few if any that were adversely affected by the old policy. Musk says they have to stand by the word that electric motors are fundamentally more reliable and the cost to the company is the increase in reserves for dry units that they will need to cover the new warranty since it is applied retroactively.

    --
    Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Polar Scope Align for iOS
    1. Re:To make it clear by AaronW · · Score: 4, Informative

      The drive unit is a combination of the single electric motor, gear reduction, differential and inverter and axles. It's all a single unit that can be quickly replaced. As Elon stated in his last earnings call, most of the problems were due to some cables that were tucked up in there coming loose and making noise. Before finding out that that was the root cause they just replaced the drive unit because it could be done quickly. Now it turns out all they do is apply some zip ties to fix the problem. The car is fairly modular and should be fairly easy to work on, especially since there's no engine in the way of everything. Things like power steering, coolant pumps, AC, etc. are all easily accessible after removing the frunk plastic tub or the plastic panel under the front of the car.

      When I have taken my Tesla in for a problem they don't fool around but try to address it as quickly as possible. All of the issues I've had with my car, an early model S, have been addressed by later versions of the car.

      Here's a picture of the drive unit: http://arstechnica.com/cars/20...

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  4. Battery by kqc7011 · · Score: 2

    If it included the battery then that might mean something. As it is now, there is just a low percentage of every needing the coverage. No real cost to Tesla, lots of good P.R. but not much else.

    --
    Passionately Indifferent
    1. Re:Battery by FuzzMaster · · Score: 4, Informative

      If it included the battery then that might mean something.

      The 85 kWh battery is already warranted for 8 years and unlimited miles.

  5. Not a fan of Tesla but this is pretty awesome by JoeyRox · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If only other manufacturers would learn that stepping in front of an issue is always better than being run over by it, both for total cost and, more importantly, reputation.

  6. Are there any reasons... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I have enormous respect for Elon Musk, but don't mistake enlightened self interest for altruism.

    Musk is a very successful and brilliant business person. I just think he also understands that customers appreciate being treated with respect and integrity. It doesn't hurt that he clearly believes in building the best product(s) possible, relying on innovations to place him squarely ahead of the entrenched players (whether that's NASA/Boeing/ULA, or GM/Ford.) His particular brand of greed is good for nearly everyone, but don't mistake it for something other than greed.

  7. not-so-rare Musk trifecta in play by Gothmolly · · Score: 4, Funny

    First we had the smug "NASA is boring, Elon Musk is awesome" article, and now this. If we hit 3 articles in 1 day, I think it becomes a national holiday!

    --
    I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
    1. Re:not-so-rare Musk trifecta in play by ColdWetDog · · Score: 4, Funny

      Look you. It's hard to be a fanboi around here. First it was Apple, then Jobs had to go and die on us. Then it was Google which somehow managed to go all Evil in the space of a few years.

      There always were a few twisted folk who thought Gates was the second coming but we mostly ignored them except to use them as the butt of some pretty nasty jokes.

      Who else? Nokia? Blackberry? Motorola? H-P ???????

      So 'ol Elon shows up in a cool car and a rocketship. Man, that's pretty close to God hood around here. Car AND Rocket Scientist analogies.

      He's all we've got.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    2. Re:not-so-rare Musk trifecta in play by WindBourne · · Score: 2

      Gads, you must have REALLY lost major money on Tesla and Solar City by shorting them.
      The fact is, that this man is making a massive change to our society.
      I hate to think of what you would say about ppl like Einstein.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  8. Re:8 years or 125k miles by WindBourne · · Score: 2

    No, you obviously did NOT read TFS. 8 years/125K miles is for the 60 KWH pack. For the 85 KWH, it is 8 years and infinite milage. Go ahead and divide infinity by 96.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  9. Re:Meh. the time limit is still there by AaronW · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I see superchargers popping up all over the place. They're becoming quite common along the east and west coasts. They're not needed for in-town driving since most people charge at home. The battery swap will cost about the same as a full tank of gas and includes swapping your original fully-charged battery back on the return trip. Using the supercharger is free forever.

    I've used the superchargers numerous times and they were not a major inconvenience. When I drove up to Lake Tahoe from the Bay Area I stopped at the one in Folsom. I went and grabbed a burger and by the time I was done eating and using the restroom the car was ready to go and it cost me nothing to use.

    Every morning I start out with a full battery. It takes me 5 seconds to plug in at night and 5 to unplug in the morning. I spend far less time charging than I ever did waiting in line to fill up with gas at Costco. Besides, I don't have to stay with the car while it's charging. Usually there's other stuff to do within easy walking distance. In 30 minutes I get 170 miles of range. They're generally only needed on long trips, not for everyday driving since it's more convenient to charge overnight at home. Even charging at home I average over 50 miles of range per hour of charging (with a dedicated 80A 240V charger).

    The chargers are popping up all over the place as can be seen on Tesla's interactive map: http://www.teslamotors.com/sup...

    Better Place died because nobody wanted the EVs that they worked with. Their range was also quite limited and the Better Place setup was quite expensive. With the Tesla I have a choice. I can pay to fill up in 90 seconds or spend nothing and wait a while.

    My last electricity bill for around 1500 miles of driving was $62.57 for 39 days, and I'll admit I tend to exceed the speed limit and accelerate hard, so I'm not taking it easy either. Next month I'm driving up to Seattle and it will cost me $0 in electricity.

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