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Australian Consumer Watchdog Takes Valve To Court

Posted by samzenpus on from the time-to-sue dept.

angry tapir writes The Australian Competition and Consumer Commission, a government funded watchdog organization, is taking Valve to court. The court action relates to Valve's Steam distribution service. According to ACCC allegations, Valve misled Australian consumers about their rights under Australian law by saying that customers were not entitled to refunds for games under any circumstances.

22 of 139 comments (clear)

  1. G'Day Valve, by mjwx · · Score: 4, Funny

    I bought ya Bioshock Infinite game on sale last weekend.

    It's shithouse, I want me 22 bucks back ya flamin mongrels.

    Yours sincerely,
    Alf Flamin Stuart.

    --
    Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    1. Re:G'Day Valve, by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2

      some might find it more convenient than dealing with dodgy/illegal web sites, poor quality cracks, possible malware, and other annoyances.

      The top torrent sites are a lot less "dodgy" than uplay (and have better uptime), and the best of the scene outfits put out cracked products that are often more stable than the companies that produce the games.

      How many times have we heard about games that had huge problems because of their DRM that were fixed in the torrent?

      There may be arguments for using Valve/Origin/Uplay etc over torrents but the ones you mention aren't really among them.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
  2. Welcome to Australia, Ferengi. by Jimbookis · · Score: 5, Informative

    I have noticed when purchasing new items these days that there are slips of paper reminding consumers of their rights and whatever the company bandies about as company policy cannot trump Australian consumer law, ever. We do refunds here. Suck it up.

    1. Re:Welcome to Australia, Ferengi. by kinarduk · · Score: 2

      Same in the UK and Europe. Want to do business here? Then abide by local laws, simples.

    2. Re:Welcome to Australia, Ferengi. by Brulath · · Score: 5, Informative

      It's pretty straight forward, if it breaks within the expected tolerances and lifetime that the average consumer would expect, and is critical to the operation of the device, they must repair, replace, or refund it. If it's a major fault that would've prevented its purchase in the first place, they must refund. If it costs over either $10,000 or $40,000 (I don't recall which off-hand, as it's rarely relevant) then it falls under different warranties, but anything under those is protected.

      It basically says "buyer beware" is bullshit and sellers are responsible for providing quality products, not misleading people into buying crappy ones. Though you can still provide crappy products that work just well enough to not be considered broken - they're usable, at least.

    3. Re:Welcome to Australia, Ferengi. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Reading about the US I really like consumer protection laws in Germany. Everything is so much more consumer friendly and open. Companies have to identify themselves (i.e. have an imprint), all taxes have to be included in prices and if you buy something you have all kinds of rights (two week period to send stuff back/cancel contracts, two year warranty on physical items and such) that cannot be taken away by ToSs.

      It's such a different culture. US companies often struggle because they're used to the whole "corporations first" mindset.

    4. Re:Welcome to Australia, Ferengi. by GNious · · Score: 5, Informative

      Apple tried this in Europe - in Denmark, a government body created a letter people could print out and take to the stores to remind the company about legal requirements and rights.

    5. Re:Welcome to Australia, Ferengi. by tlhIngan · · Score: 2

      Reading about the US I really like consumer protection laws in Germany. Everything is so much more consumer friendly and open. Companies have to identify themselves (i.e. have an imprint), all taxes have to be included in prices and if you buy something you have all kinds of rights (two week period to send stuff back/cancel contracts, two year warranty on physical items and such) that cannot be taken away by ToSs.

      It's such a different culture. US companies often struggle because they're used to the whole "corporations first" mindset.

      On the flip side, you realize stuff in Europe is way more expensive, right? And why people in Australia complain that stuff is more expensive too.

      TINSTAAFL.

      If you mandate that everything has a 2 year warranty, then consider the next time anyone asks you in North America, "Do you want to buy an extended warranty?" and being forced to say "yes". Because that 2 years is now built into the price of the unit itself. It doesn't matter if you'd normally say "no" and be done with it, you're forced to say "yes" and pay up.

      Likewise, if you're forced to handle returns on digital items, well, don't be surprised when people either a) don't want to do business with you (see music/movies geoblocking), b) charge for the privilege (i.e., it costs more).

      Now, Australia is a bit funny in that respect because they want to encourage the practice of buying from other regions to get better pricing to help drive down the local prices. Yet at the same thing, those other retailers don't have to accept returns or deal with Australian law (and the Australian representatives can easily say since you didn't buy it in Australia, the law doesn't apply - if you want a refund, deal with the overseas store you got it from).

      In fact, if you compare pricing, you'd find after warranties and embedded taxes, the price gap isn't as big as it once was.

    6. Re:Welcome to Australia, Ferengi. by Brulath · · Score: 2

      Most of the complaints about pricing in Australia are around digital products, where there are apparently no protections outside the ability to return it if it doesn't work. That can't justify the 50-100% price increase on digital goods. You're correct that the increased price of things like e.g. Apple products is most likely due to them having to provide actual service without you paying extra, but that isn't what a lot of us are complaining about. A few years ago it was cheaper to take a flight to America and buy Adobe software then fly back than it was to buy it in Australia, despite gaining zero additional protections for it outside of a return if it doesn't work (which is fairly unlikely, depending on your definition of "doesn't work").

  3. Bad business practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    I bought the AVGN Adventures game from within the Valve software on my Mac. After downloading the game using the Valve software, the software said the game was Windows only, so I could not install it.

    At the support forum I asked for my money back, since it is ridiculous to sell a game using Mac software and then it will not run. Support refused to return my money.

    I complained so many times, the support time cost them more than the actual game cost ($10).

    Idiots.

    1. Re:Bad business practice by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The time you lost complaining also cost you more than the $10 you are claiming back.

      Perhaps the satisfaction in, in some small way, causing trouble for a company that has treated him unfairly is also worth more than $10 to him.

      --
      systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
    2. Re:Bad business practice by jones_supa · · Score: 3, Informative

      it is ridiculous to sell a game using Mac software and then it will not run

      Doesn't the Steam page for each game explicitly list which operating systems it is compatible with in the information box with all of the other info?

      It seems that in his case the store page incorrectly claimed that the software has also a Mac version, but when he purchased it, he found that it's Windows-only.

      The store page for AVGN Adventures seems to show correct information right now: only a flag symbol showing that it's Windows software. Maybe previously that page had both a flag and an apple symbol? That's how I interpret the situation.

    3. Re:Bad business practice by BitZtream · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It doesn't show them 'by default'. The opening page is a list of games for your platform, if you browse to a different category or search for a game, you're taking deliberate action to do so. Make sure you search for Mac games if you want to buy games for a Mac, and make sure its badged for Mac.

      Mac Steam doesn't start you in the Windows or Linux games page.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    4. Re:Bad business practice by jones_supa · · Score: 2

      Ok, thanks for checking. You seem to be correct, apparently the buyer simply wasn't paying attention.

  4. Good, now for EA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    While they're at it they need to look into EA's Origin Sales. They're charging GST on an overseas sale (origin sales are all through EA Switzerland).

  5. Umm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I'm Australian, I live in Australia, I have successfully received a refund from a game on steam before...

    Has anyone tried this recently to verify this is now the case? because I've absolutely received a refund (in steam credit, admittedly - not a cash/credit refund) for The War Z about 12 months ago.

    1. Re:Umm by Barny · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Yeah, but they don't give you the refund because of consumer law, they give it to shut you up.

      I have gotten refunds off them in the past, and mentioned this law in the request and they stated it doesn't apply to them. I guess the ACCC think otherwise.

      --
      ...
      /me sighs
  6. Re:Don't see what Valve's problem is ... by Barny · · Score: 3, Informative

    They already can process refunds, I know that.

    The case is in regards to them advertising that there are no refunds allowed, they are most certainly NOT allowed to do that. Note, if the product is not of merchantable quality, they can also be refunded (so no more buying a game that runs terribly or crashes a lot).

    --
    ...
    /me sighs
  7. Complete bans by MrL0G1C · · Score: 2

    If anyone thinks

    Valve had misled consumers by saying it "was not under any obligation to repair, replace or provide a refund for a game where the consumer had not contacted and attempted to resolve the problem with the computer game developer

    is bad they should remember that Valve can and does sometimes revoke accounts - that can mean the loss of dozens of games and software in one go.

    Steam being hugely convenient to consumers != Valve or DRM are always great.

    --
    Waterfox - a Firefox fork with legacy extension support, security updates and better privacy by default.
    1. Re:Complete bans by TubeSteak · · Score: 2

      is bad they should remember that Valve can and does sometimes revoke accounts - that can mean the loss of dozens of games and software in one go.

      That sounds like an argument for stronger consumer protection laws.

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
  8. Re:Why don't steam offer refunds. by Barny · · Score: 2

    They do refunds, but only if you push.

    What the ACCC is upset about is that they don't, as you say, offer refunds. The laws are quite clear in regards to what must be refunded/replaced. If the product is not of merchantable quality, it must be refunded. If the product breaks within the accepted lifespan, it can be refunded, repaired or replaced (this could cover things like a honorific patch for a game that is force-installed).

    And while measuring if the game runs might be one metric, it most certainly shouldn't be the only. For example: new Dungeon Defenders game, when you hit play in steam, it loads its own launcher that then downloads the game. I have 'played' for 6 hours and still never actually gotten into the game.

    --
    ...
    /me sighs
  9. Sorry Valve has to cop it by AbRASiON · · Score: 2

    but someone needs to fucking pay the god damned price for ripping us off. If you're going to charge us significantly more than other countries for DIGITAL fucking content, then we damn well better get something for it.

    Did I mention that we used to pay the same price as the states for this stuff? Until Valve and Steam got their shit together and set up regions / regional pricing and billing properly? Once they did, the publishers (most likely) told Valve "to fuck them" (for the most part the actual Valve games are priced the same as the US)

    Oh it's not just us, the UK got thoroughly fucked by this too.