Australian Consumer Watchdog Takes Valve To Court

angry tapir writes The Australian Competition and Consumer Commission, a government funded watchdog organization, is taking Valve to court. The court action relates to Valve's Steam distribution service. According to ACCC allegations, Valve misled Australian consumers about their rights under Australian law by saying that customers were not entitled to refunds for games under any circumstances.

Comments

G'Day Valve,

[mjwx]

I bought ya Bioshock Infinite game on sale last weekend.

It's shithouse, I want me 22 bucks back ya flamin mongrels.

Yours sincerely,
Alf Flamin Stuart.

Re:G'Day Valve,

[Anonymous Coward]

Why would you do something complicated like that? Wouldn't it be easier to just torrent the game?

Re:G'Day Valve,

[jones_supa]

In the Simpsons episode Loan-a Lisa Homer takes to extremes the idea of returning items in time for a refund, and buys all sorts of expensive stuff and uses them only very carefully.

Re:G'Day Valve,

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, that is being done with physical products to exploit the generous "no questions asked" 30-day refund period offered by online stores. People buy a relatively expensive product, use it regularly, and return it for a refund on day 29. Or buy 5-6 similar products, use them for almost a month, then return all but one. No wonder one can receive allegedly "new" items bought online with apparent signs of being used (fingerprints, scratches, etc.).

Re:G'Day Valve,

[PopeRatzo]

some might find it more convenient than dealing with dodgy/illegal web sites, poor quality cracks, possible malware, and other annoyances.

The top torrent sites are a lot less "dodgy" than uplay (and have better uptime), and the best of the scene outfits put out cracked products that are often more stable than the companies that produce the games.

How many times have we heard about games that had huge problems because of their DRM that were fixed in the torrent?

There may be arguments for using Valve/Origin/Uplay etc over torrents but the ones you mention aren't really among them.

Re:G'Day Valve,

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not a problem because you'll get flagged if you do that too many times and the seller will refuse to do further business with you.

Re:G'Day Valve,

[TheCarp]

While true, I have trouble imagining anyone who can afford games does this. There are so many cheap games out there it seems like a silly bother and... a lot to go through to screw the publisher out of a few bucks.

That said, since the majority of people who do this likely are attemtping to cheat because they couldn't afford many games anyway, the loss of money is likely actually very small since the alternative would be, they don't play the game or download it some other way.

However, they likely tell all their friends about any game so, in a way its free advertising. Hell LL Bean has a return policy that almost screams "come take advantage of us" but, they claim very few people do, and that it works out for them in the long run with loyal customers.

In fact, I bet the people who suffer the most from this sort of trick are the people who make shitty games, because not only will they not get paid by the people who use this trick, they might also lose out on other sales as people warn their friend's away from wasting their money.

Re:G'Day Valve,

[master_kaos]

Exactly, my one friend did this with PC games. He would buy the game from Electronics Boutique, burn them, then return it claiming it didn't work. After about a dozen returns or so he was banned from the store. (Note: this was back in the mid 90s when CD burners were extremely expensive, so they had a no questions asked full refund on video games since this system wasn't widely abused).

Re:G'Day Valve,

[Khyber]

And the second you restart steam to update or go online to download a game, your other game is gone.

That's how it went when I got a refund on STALKER.

Re:G'Day Valve,

[khellendros1984]

In college, my grandparents provided a computer, parents provided a cell phone and my food and lodging. I didn't smoke (most people don't, here) and didn't drink. That, plus no car and only occasional employment? You better believe that I pirated a fair amount of stuff while almost fooling myself that I was justified for doing it. My family wasn't impoverished, but legal additions to my game catalog were limited to a couple times per year, and the in-dorm network share starts looking mighty appealing when your roommates invite you to play a game you don't own.

Re:G'Day Valve,

[TheCarp]

No actually your moralizing is irrelevant, because the reality is the same no matter how you feel about it. Its been shown in the studies I have run into on the subject that piracy rates drop off with income level. Those with money pay for it.

This lines up perfectly with my own experience, the people who pirate the most tend to make the least amount of money and have the most amount of free time to consume huge amounts of media.

I don't see how your feelings on the topic, which seems to be your only point, makes a difference here. Your argument doesn't even make sense. Content easily can cost many times the initial investment, especially an initial investment for a pc or console setup, and many people's finances fluxuate over time.

In any case, I don't see how that is relevant, point is, the loss of money is money that they were never likely going to get the vast majority of, so why is your moral outrage the only effect that matters or is worth talking about? IS it worth more than any potential side benefits?

Re:G'Day Valve,

[Kartu]

If gog.com (DRM free forever,, offline install) DOES support refund, why can't Valve?

Re:G'Day Valve,

[mjwx]

And the second you restart steam to update or go online to download a game, your other game is gone.

That's how it went when I got a refund on STALKER.

If you know how steam's folders are organised, there's a very, very easy way to get around that... yep, gone from steam but not from your HDD.

Not that I would ever advocate that kind of activity mind you.

Re:G'Day Valve,

[Samizdata]

Well, I have at least two games in my Steam collection that do not work. One, I was told by the company it wouldn't work ever with my config, and the other...Well, I am tired of pawing through forums trying all kinds of things. And, we are not even going to mention getting ripped off for my Minerva's Den DLC, which I place firmly in the split camp of Steam/2K Games/Microsoft.

Welcome to Australia, Ferengi.

[Jimbookis]

I have noticed when purchasing new items these days that there are slips of paper reminding consumers of their rights and whatever the company bandies about as company policy cannot trump Australian consumer law, ever. We do refunds here. Suck it up.

Re:Welcome to Australia, Ferengi.

[kinarduk]

Same in the UK and Europe. Want to do business here? Then abide by local laws, simples.

Re:Welcome to Australia, Ferengi.

[Brulath]

It's pretty straight forward, if it breaks within the expected tolerances and lifetime that the average consumer would expect, and is critical to the operation of the device, they must repair, replace, or refund it. If it's a major fault that would've prevented its purchase in the first place, they must refund. If it costs over either $10,000 or $40,000 (I don't recall which off-hand, as it's rarely relevant) then it falls under different warranties, but anything under those is protected.

It basically says "buyer beware" is bullshit and sellers are responsible for providing quality products, not misleading people into buying crappy ones. Though you can still provide crappy products that work just well enough to not be considered broken - they're usable, at least.

Re:Welcome to Australia, Ferengi.

[Anonymous Coward]

Reading about the US I really like consumer protection laws in Germany. Everything is so much more consumer friendly and open. Companies have to identify themselves (i.e. have an imprint), all taxes have to be included in prices and if you buy something you have all kinds of rights (two week period to send stuff back/cancel contracts, two year warranty on physical items and such) that cannot be taken away by ToSs.

It's such a different culture. US companies often struggle because they're used to the whole "corporations first" mindset.

Re:Welcome to Australia, Ferengi.

[The Evil Atheist]

Or they can just make a complaint to the relevant authorities and the matter will be settled in their favour.

Re:Welcome to Australia, Ferengi.

[Anonymous Coward]

The Checkout crew explain your rights regarding exchanges and refunds. With lols.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uE8BB-ioNRw

Re:Welcome to Australia, Ferengi.

[Wootery]

There's an analogy to be made with employment law. 'Right to hire' is not an idea that gets much sympathy in Europe.

Re:Welcome to Australia, Ferengi.

[Opportunist]

I sure hope it's not. Else it's trivial for a company to put another one under. Like, say, a company producing a mainboard with a well known fault. Buy a container of them, run them to failure then DEMAND them to be repaired instead of replaced.

Re:Welcome to Australia, Ferengi.

[GNious]

Apple tried this in Europe - in Denmark, a government body created a letter people could print out and take to the stores to remind the company about legal requirements and rights.

Re:Welcome to Australia, Ferengi.

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course they are used to it, they paid for it by funding the election campaigns of lawmakers.

Re:Welcome to Australia, Ferengi.

[sjames]

Easily avoided. Just stop selling a product with a known failure.

Re:Welcome to Australia, Ferengi.

[Khyber]

Umm, no. I have clients in Australia. My shit breaks, it's their choice, not mine, to get a refund, repair, or replacement.

The only thing at my discretion is whether I replace it with the exact same item, or I give them an upgraded model in its stead.

Re: Welcome to Australia, Ferengi.

[Khyber]

"If it is not possible to repair the fault then the option of replace or refund is available"

In the case Opportunist is talking about, it would be almost impossible to not repair, unless the PCB or traces had damage. Running them to failure just means a quick component reflow/replacement, which is fairly cheap and almost easy enough to automate testing and repair thereof.

Re:Welcome to Australia, Ferengi.

[sjwt]

More often than not its to counter the large amount of incorrect information that is printed on everything as well as pops up on screen because they fail to localize the release properly, and its just cheaper to slip in a piece of paper.. how ever this lazy application to localization leads to the same things being done for digital releases, except hang no.. no piece of paper..

Re:Welcome to Australia, Ferengi.

[tlhIngan]

Reading about the US I really like consumer protection laws in Germany. Everything is so much more consumer friendly and open. Companies have to identify themselves (i.e. have an imprint), all taxes have to be included in prices and if you buy something you have all kinds of rights (two week period to send stuff back/cancel contracts, two year warranty on physical items and such) that cannot be taken away by ToSs.

It's such a different culture. US companies often struggle because they're used to the whole "corporations first" mindset.

On the flip side, you realize stuff in Europe is way more expensive, right? And why people in Australia complain that stuff is more expensive too.

TINSTAAFL.

If you mandate that everything has a 2 year warranty, then consider the next time anyone asks you in North America, "Do you want to buy an extended warranty?" and being forced to say "yes". Because that 2 years is now built into the price of the unit itself. It doesn't matter if you'd normally say "no" and be done with it, you're forced to say "yes" and pay up.

Likewise, if you're forced to handle returns on digital items, well, don't be surprised when people either a) don't want to do business with you (see music/movies geoblocking), b) charge for the privilege (i.e., it costs more).

Now, Australia is a bit funny in that respect because they want to encourage the practice of buying from other regions to get better pricing to help drive down the local prices. Yet at the same thing, those other retailers don't have to accept returns or deal with Australian law (and the Australian representatives can easily say since you didn't buy it in Australia, the law doesn't apply - if you want a refund, deal with the overseas store you got it from).

In fact, if you compare pricing, you'd find after warranties and embedded taxes, the price gap isn't as big as it once was.

Re:Welcome to Australia, Ferengi.

[Solandri]

all taxes have to be included in prices

It's the government's fault that U.S. companies don't do that, not companies'. Most countries have a single unified tax structure. A store can set a price, and advertise that price inclusive of taxes nationwide.

The U.S. is an amalgam of tax-governing bodies. The States can set their own sales tax. The counties can set their own sales tax. The cities can set their own sales tax. Consequently, the sales tax rate differs, sometimes from city to city. A store sets a price and advertises that price + taxes, it's correct for one locale, incorrect everywhere else. The only way to advertise a "correct" price is without taxes. Not because the price varies or because they're trying to hide the final price from you, but because the tax rate varies.

There are currently close to 10,000 different sales tax rates in the U.S. With more states trying to impose sales tax on Internet purchases, it's actually becoming a barrier to entry for small businesses trying to start up Internet sales. The sales tax rates can change at any time if some local governing body decides to change it, so you have to either watch daily for new tax rate changes, or hire someone to do it for you (but you still have to pay if they make a mistake). Amazon tried to harmonize sales taxes in the U.S. because of this, but the States were more interested in casting it as "protecting brick and mortar stores from unfair Internet competition" than addressing the real problem.

The best solution (other than a harmonized sales tax) would be if the Federal government set up a website listing the ~10,000 different tax rates, and forced states and local governments to update their entry in the site before a sales tax rate was "official". Businesses could then just download all the different tax rates every night and be sure they're charging the correct sales tax.

and if you buy something you have all kinds of rights (two week period to send stuff back/cancel contracts

That's the case for nearly everything in the U.S. too. In fact most shops have 30-90 day return policies.

two year warranty on physical items and such) that cannot be taken away by ToSs.

Warranties are just insurance policies. Just because the law forces companies to provide them to everyone does not mean they're free. Their cost is rolled into the price of the item you're buying.

In general, insurance is not worth it (otherwise someone wouldn't be selling it to you). It makes sense to insure items whose prices are so high it'd be difficult for you to replace (e.g. cars, houses, maybe appliances depending on your income level). But for items costing a few hundreds of dollars or less, you actually save money by just replacing the things which break rather than taking out an insurance policy/requiring a warranty for them. This is why larger companies and organizations self-insure rather than buying insurance for things like mailed packages and fleet cars. You'll notice the more expensive items like large appliances and cars already come with multi-year warranties exceeding what's required by EU law. That's because being an insurance policy on something that's difficult for the buyer to afford to replace, it's additional profit for the manufacturer to provide the 5- or 10-year warranty and raise the price accordingly.

The one place warranties do help is setting a baseline for product durability. i.e. It weeds out products which are so shabbily made it'll break after a few months. The cost of providing warranty service is so high the manufacturer goes back and redesigns the product to be more durable. At least usually that's how it works. Sometimes it doesn't (e.g. hard drives, where manufacturers can refurbish enough drives returned under warranty to replace new drives which

Re:Welcome to Australia, Ferengi.

[mjwx]

Umm, no. I have clients in Australia. My shit breaks, it's their choice, not mine, to get a refund, repair, or replacement.

The only thing at my discretion is whether I replace it with the exact same item, or I give them an upgraded model in its stead.

Welcome to utter bullshit land.

You dont have clients in Australia, you have at best, people you've ripped off and ignored further contact with as an overseas agent... but in more likelihood you're making the whole thing up.

Yes, an Australian will pursue you for a refund or at the very least ensure that people know not to do business with you again if they cant pursue you through an Australian court.

Re:Welcome to Australia, Ferengi.

[EmperorArthur]

overall, very few products I've encountered are that shabbily made (in fact the only one I can think of was a portable DVD player made by a company which went bankrupt anyway a few months later, so I would've been out the warranty even if I'd bought it in the EU).

Haven't bought a Toshiba have you? They have a 3 month warranty, they DMCA repair guides, you can't get parts to fix them yourself, and repairs start at over $200 then go up. When there shit breaks within 6 to 9 months it doesn't make me a happy customer.

Re:Welcome to Australia, Ferengi.

[Luckyo]

He was talking about warranty replacement choices. Those qualify as "major problems".

Re:Welcome to Australia, Ferengi.

[Khyber]

"You dont have clients in Australia, you have at best, people you've ripped off and ignored further contact with as an overseas agent."

Uh, yea, you're full of shit. You talk yet you can't provide numbers.

Go the fuck to hell, son.

Re:Welcome to Australia, Ferengi.

[Khyber]

"From the ACCC website:"

You're stupid as shit as most consumers opt for replacement.

Total troll, you are.

Re:Welcome to Australia, Ferengi.

[Brulath]

Most of the complaints about pricing in Australia are around digital products, where there are apparently no protections outside the ability to return it if it doesn't work. That can't justify the 50-100% price increase on digital goods. You're correct that the increased price of things like e.g. Apple products is most likely due to them having to provide actual service without you paying extra, but that isn't what a lot of us are complaining about. A few years ago it was cheaper to take a flight to America and buy Adobe software then fly back than it was to buy it in Australia, despite gaining zero additional protections for it outside of a return if it doesn't work (which is fairly unlikely, depending on your definition of "doesn't work").

Re:Welcome to Australia, Ferengi.

[HappyPsycho]

I have a few issues with such a sentiment:

From the article Valve's policy is "was not under any obligation to repair, replace or provide a refund for a game where the consumer had not contacted and attempted to resolve the problem with the computer game developer". Whereas the assertion by ACCC states "It is a breach of the Australian Consumer Law for businesses to state that they do not give refunds under any circumstances, including for gifts and during sale".

I don't see a real issue here, Valve are essentially saying you at least need to make contact with the developer of the game first and attempt to get your issue rectified before they will step in (the "had not contacted and attempted to resolve the problem with the computer game developer" part), maybe I'm speaking a different english than Australia (or words mean different things over there) but this seems quite reasonable. If I buy something from a third party via either amazon / ebay and have an issue with it I'm pretty much required to at least speak to the supplier (through their messaging system so there is a record) before amazon / ebay get involved.

Also most of the "broken" games on steam have a common tag, "Early Access". I'm guessing if this lawsuit goes through the entire section will get locked off to Australia. Which brings up a interesting question, how well does Australian law and crowd funding get along?

Bad business practice

[Anonymous Coward]

I bought the AVGN Adventures game from within the Valve software on my Mac. After downloading the game using the Valve software, the software said the game was Windows only, so I could not install it.

At the support forum I asked for my money back, since it is ridiculous to sell a game using Mac software and then it will not run. Support refused to return my money.

I complained so many times, the support time cost them more than the actual game cost ($10).

Idiots.

Re:Bad business practice

[viperidaenz]

Why did you stop complaining?

Re:Bad business practice

[wonkey_monkey]

The time you lost complaining also cost you more than the $10 you are claiming back.

Perhaps the satisfaction in, in some small way, causing trouble for a company that has treated him unfairly is also worth more than $10 to him.

Re:Bad business practice

[jones_supa]

it is ridiculous to sell a game using Mac software and then it will not run

Doesn't the Steam page for each game explicitly list which operating systems it is compatible with in the information box with all of the other info?

It seems that in his case the store page incorrectly claimed that the software has also a Mac version, but when he purchased it, he found that it's Windows-only.

The store page for AVGN Adventures seems to show correct information right now: only a flag symbol showing that it's Windows software. Maybe previously that page had both a flag and an apple symbol? That's how I interpret the situation.

Re:Bad business practice

[pla]

With a bit of luck, the person running Steam AU will see time in court.

Congrats, that $10 down the drain plus a few hours of time spend arguing just turned into a day of lost work to testify. You really showed them! Attaboy!


If you don't like the law of the land, fuck off back to America.

In principle, I agree with you. Honestly, I fucking hate corporations thinking they can get away with anything, and I hate even more that they usually do simply because of the cost of fighting them even when in the right. But you have a practical issue to consider here as well - Do you want to play Day Z? Hawken? Starbound? Zero Gear? Shattered Horizon? Anything on this list? Then you need to use Steam. And at the risk of commiting a 3rd party tu quoque, do you consider Sony any better? Microsoft? Ubisoft?

If you want what the devil has, you get to deal with the devil, like it or not.

Re:Bad business practice

[drinkypoo]

If you want what the devil has, you get to deal with the devil, like it or not.

I don't like it. I decided not to buy Portal 2 for just $5. The only Steam games I buy any more are indie titles. I did buy FFVII on Steam, because it was on sale, but then I torrented the non-steam version because fuck having to be always online to play a console game of yore.

Steam is shit.

Re:Bad business practice

[BitZtream]

I've seen this happen when a Mac version of the game is coming, but hasn't actually been released. In my case the game showed up on Mac a month or two later.

When I bought it, I was fine with buying only a Windows version and thought the store was wrong when it showed the mac badge.

For reference: Nothing stops you from buying windows only games on mac.

Re:Bad business practice

[BitZtream]

It doesn't show them 'by default'. The opening page is a list of games for your platform, if you browse to a different category or search for a game, you're taking deliberate action to do so. Make sure you search for Mac games if you want to buy games for a Mac, and make sure its badged for Mac.

Mac Steam doesn't start you in the Windows or Linux games page.

Re:Bad business practice

[Ash-Fox]

I bought the AVGN Adventures game from within the Valve software on my Mac. After downloading the game using the Valve software, the software said the game was Windows only, so I could not install it.

Quoting something from Apple's website to help you in this matter:

Leopard is the world's most advanced operating system. So advanced, it even lets you run Windows if there's a PC application you need to use.

They also state:

Setup is simple and straightforward â" just as you'd expect with a Mac.

Clearly you're not using your Mac in the correct supported configuration. So, this is user error, not VALVe's error.

Re:Bad business practice

[prefect42]

Only you normally don't need to be online, as Steam has an offline mode?

Re:Bad business practice

[The MAZZTer]

To be fair it says right on the AVGN store page under System Requirements that it requires Windows. The Steam Store is a website that anyone with a browser can access, regardless of what OS they run. I wouldn't expect Newegg or Amazon, for example, to only let me buy computer hardware that is compatible with the OS I am currently browsing from.

Though if you did it through the Steam client itself I can see the confusion... it should probably warn you at checkout in that case that you would need to own a different PC in order to play your order.

Currently I think the only warning is shown when you launch the game, and your hardware requirements don't seem to match up with the game's. In the cast of most hardware requirements the Steam Store can't tell while you're web browsing, but it can see your OS so they could check it earlier for that factor.

In the future you can use this page to browse Mac games on Steam.

Re:Bad business practice

[jones_supa]

Ok, thanks for checking. You seem to be correct, apparently the buyer simply wasn't paying attention.

Re:Bad business practice

[drinkypoo]

It doesn't show them 'by default'. The opening page is a list of games for your platform

If that's true, it's new. Last time I launched Steam on Linux, which was at least well after the launch of big picture mode, the default was still to just show all titles.

Re:Bad business practice

[mjwx]

Since the games say what they run on when you buy them, I wouldn't give your blind ass a refund either.

The only reason Steam even shows you titles which won't run on your platform by default is to trick you into buying them. It's intentionally deceptive.

I've seen this before.

Mac User installs Steam on their home PC, then installs it on their work PC. Their home PC is a Mac and their work PC is Windows. They buy stuff on their work PC and wonder why it doesn't work at home.

I work at a university. Glad I dont work in support any more. Those who can reach me are smart enough not to out themselves as Mac Users.

Re:Bad business practice

[khellendros1984]

I think it's convenient, for my case. If I'm on my Linux machine but I'm looking at Steam's page, I'm most likely trying to buy games for my Windows machine (or one that I've read runs well under Wine). The search box ought to have an "only for my platform" checkbox/dropdown, and maybe it should warn you prior to purchase if your browser's user-agent indicates that there's a platform mismatch, but I'd much prefer being shown everything available.

Re:Bad business practice

[sexconker]

Only you normally don't need to be online, as Steam has an offline mode?

Steam's offline mode does not work. It has never worked. It will never work.
The entire premise is fucking retarded - you have to be ONLINE in order to enable OFFLINE MODE. You have to KNOW that you're going to go offline in advance,
If you're not in offline mode and you have no internet connection and you launch Steam, it will simply fail to connect and you can't do anything with the Steam client.

If you are in offline mode and you do have an internet connection Steam will revert to online mode when it feels like it and start to do all the things you don't want it to do. And if a game has an update available, Steam will refuse to let you launch the game while in offline mode. Steam can learn of updates while in offline mode if you do have an internet connection, and lock you out of games.

If you are in offline mode it's just a matter of time before Steam decides you need to reauthenticate. Time, connection to a network (with or without internet connectivity), fucking connected bluetooth devices, etc. can all trip Steam's alarms and cause it to shut you out of your games until you reauthenticate.

Re:Bad business practice

[lgw]

Of course you have to be online the first time you launch it, just like you have to be online to download the game. That's not actually a burden.

Steam offline mode has had issues over the years, and I still don't trust it, but having to be online the first time you ever launch a game is the least annoying copy protection possible. There's a freaking checkbox in Steam to launch a game as soon as the download is complete, for goodness sake, so you don't even need to babysit it to do that first launch.

Re:Bad business practice

[Darinbob]

I've seen even less annoying protections. And games with no DRM or copy protection (they're not the same thing). With steam you gotta wait for steam itself to update, then mandatory updates to the game before first launch. Some games also have subsequent mandatory updates, very annoying to say the least (and when you find out what these important changes are you find out they were trivial fixes for some video card you don't even have). Some other games require you to register outside of steam to get the add-ons you paid for (seriously what the hell is wrong with bioware). Then every time you play you have to waaaait for steam to launch first.

Meanwhile GOG gives you DRM free games, and allows refunds, and sells the same title cheaper than Steam. You can give your games away, loan them out, play them without asking for permission, mod them up all you want, revert to older versions, etc.

Re:Bad business practice

[lgw]

With steam you gotta wait for steam itself to update, then mandatory updates to the game before first launch.

All of which you did when you downloaded the game in the first place.

Then every time you play you have to waaaait for steam to launch first.

Which is why I prefer GOG. But almost no one's willing to sell their games there, and Steam would be equally empty if it were the same as GOG. Steam does a great service in convincing many smaller studios that Steam is "enough DRM," no need for more. (EA can go fuck itself.) It's not like these guys would be on GOG if Steam vanished - they'd be a wilderness of homegrown distribution platforms with DRM licensed from one of the really evil companies.

Re:Bad business practice

[Anonymous Coward]

Steam's offline mode does not work. It has never worked. It will never work.
The entire premise is fucking retarded - you have to be ONLINE in order to enable OFFLINE MODE. You have to KNOW that you're going to go offline in advance,
If you're not in offline mode and you have no internet connection and you launch Steam, it will simply fail to connect and you can't do anything with the Steam client.

This is false information. I have used Steam many times in offline mode without explicitly switching to that mode while being online. If the connection fails (before that, you still need to enter a user name and password), the client displays a message if it should try again, or run in offline mode. This will not work only if either the Steam client or the game is in a state where it requires an update, or is not completely installed yet (games need to be run once while online), or the client did not exit cleanly and is in a possibly corrupt state.

Re:Bad business practice

[drinkypoo]

or the client did not exit cleanly and is in a possibly corrupt state.

It's too bad that Valve is too incompetent to open config files and the like read-only, so that this doesn't happen. What year is it, anyway? Also, if your client isn't already in offline mode, then you get to sit around holding your dick for minutes until Steam times out.

Re:Bad business practice

[cas2000]

no, it's convenient. and more secure.

I buy *all* of my steam games from my linux machine.

I play nearly all of them on my windows machine. I do not and will not ever use this machine for anything other than playing games - and certainly never use it for any purchases or financial transactions. neither my paypal account nor my credit card details will ever be used on this machine - windows is just too vulnerable and prone to malware to be trusted for that.

if i couldn't see windows-only games while logged in using a linux browser, i'd never be able to buy windows games.

Re:Bad business practice

[Cealestis]

Its certainly a pain no argument there but that's not all entirely true. If you have it set to remember your password you can go into offline mode whenever. If I don't have internet at startup when it launches it simply offers the option to go into offline mode. I just did that this morning. As for locking out your games, if you don't want them to update, set them to not update in steam. Its really that easy. I can't say how long it lasts in offline mode, but I've personally gone just over a week (no internet) without any issues. (All in windows)

Re:Bad business practice

[sexconker]

Its certainly a pain no argument there but that's not all entirely true. If you have it set to remember your password you can go into offline mode whenever. If I don't have internet at startup when it launches it simply offers the option to go into offline mode. I just did that this morning. As for locking out your games, if you don't want them to update, set them to not update in steam. Its really that easy. I can't say how long it lasts in offline mode, but I've personally gone just over a week (no internet) without any issues. (All in windows)

I have Steam set to remember my password.
If I have Steam running in online mode and exit Steam (waiting for all processes to terminate own their own), then kill my network connection, then start Steam, Steam will launch and flash the default page (Library for me) for an instant before I'm presented with a login dialog. And no, I can't login - if I try it tries to go out to Steam, but my network connection is down so it can't, and I can't do shit.

If you had read my post you would know that telling games to not update doesn't prevent Steam from knowing that an update is available. If Steam knows an update is available for a game, Steam will lock that game out off offline mode. Further, telling games not to auto-update isn't always honored - Steam can (and does) push out updates that override that setting. I don't know if it's the publisher or Valve who decides whether or not to ignore the user's preference.

Re:Bad business practice

[sexconker]

I get the dialog telling me to log in or switch to offline mode.
Switching to offline mode simply presents the login dialog again.

Re: Bad business practice

[Cealestis]

I did. Your argument was it didn't work, under any circumstances. This wasn't true. I've never had steam force an update on something I set not to nor has it ever locked out a game for being set not to update in offline mode. I'm sure it's game dependent but nothing I can attest to. Theres issues with not being able to install if you did not do so while online, sure. My point is that offline mode does work, not always, but that's different from never. My purpose was simply to show that some users don't have absolute bad experiences with steam, despite your personal difficulties. I can disconnect and get steam into offline mode with or without it running. It's only rarely been an issue. In stark contrast to your statements.

Good, now for EA

[Anonymous Coward]

While they're at it they need to look into EA's Origin Sales. They're charging GST on an overseas sale (origin sales are all through EA Switzerland).

Re:Good, now for EA

[Darinbob]

I'm utterly baffled that EA has any customers left.

Umm

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm Australian, I live in Australia, I have successfully received a refund from a game on steam before...

Has anyone tried this recently to verify this is now the case? because I've absolutely received a refund (in steam credit, admittedly - not a cash/credit refund) for The War Z about 12 months ago.

Re:Umm

[Barny]

Yeah, but they don't give you the refund because of consumer law, they give it to shut you up.

I have gotten refunds off them in the past, and mentioned this law in the request and they stated it doesn't apply to them. I guess the ACCC think otherwise.

Re:Umm

[91degrees]

I think it's that they are misleading customers as to whether they can get the refund rather than not giving the refund.

Re:Umm

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm also Australian, I live in Australia also, and believe me I can show you an email conversation between myself and Valve employees trying to get a refund that's so bloody long I could print and publish it into a book. I sent several dozen screenshots of forum posts of other people getting refunds for a game while they were refusing my own refund, I sent them screenshots of dozens upon dozens of forum posts disassembling the wall of lies they built on the requirements to receive a refund i.e. you can only play within an hour or refund can't be granted, etc; bloody hell I could keep going till the end of time. Just thinking of all that rubbish makes my fucking blood boil hotter than a supernova explosion.

They cherry pick who they give the refunds to.

I shit you NOT.

They truly cherry pick people to give refunds to so those people can spread the "good word of Valve". Please keep in mind I have nothing, I repeat, absolutely nothing against you, but unfortunately it's people like yourself who don't know and spread this by saying "I'm Australian, I live in Australia, I have successfully received a refund from a game on steam before..." you're continuing the problem.Please for the love of all that is freakin' holy STOP IT!.

Best example of this is the X Rebirth fiasco... absolutely crazy disgusting display of how Valve does business. Bloody disgusting.

FUCK VALVE AND FUCK STEAM!

Re:Umm

[AntiSol]

I'm Australian, and I think maybe the best thing about this place is the ACCC.

This time last year I was a super-hardcore valve fan, singing their praises and buying up pretty much every new game that came out for linux, including much of valve's catalog (which I had previously pirated). I was even thinking about trying to build a few steam boxes to sell on ebay.

One game I bought was Fez. It didn't work properly, making it unplayable. I emailled Fez support and recieved no response.

I emailled valve demanding the refund I am entitled to by law. I spent many, many emails back and forth explaining to them that I was entitled to my money back, since the thing being unplayable is clearly a major fault. They tried to tell me that the law doesn't apply to them and that I should write to their legal department and ignored my further emails... Rather than simply obeying the law and refunding the princely sum of $2.49.

The argument that our law doesn't apply to them is a joke - the law applies if you sell within australia. I was in Australia when I bought Fez. There are steam mirrors here. They are specifically marketing at Australians - If Australian laws don't apply to valve, where's my uncensored version of Left 4 Dead 2?

I complained to the ACCC and did a chargeback on my credit card - got my money back despite them. Interestingly, I still have Fez in my steam library, so it looks like i got it for free. I don't know whether the game-breaking bug has been fixed - I have no interest in playing it anymore.

I've not purchased anything through steam since, and Valve will never see another cent of my money - I don't support companies who think they're above the law.

The humble store and GOG have both made a killing off of me this year. I wonder if I can can get one or both to write Valve a nice thank-you note.

If you got a refund from valve without doing a chargeback, you were lucky. If you didn't get a refund, do a chargeback, then call the ACCC and tell them you love their work. And if you know somebody who works for the ACCC, hug them for me.

Don't see what Valve's problem is ...

[MacTO]

There appear to be a bunch of exemptions that prevent people from purchasing and frivolously returning a product. In effect, the only way that a consumer can legitimately return a product is if it doesn't reflect advertised claims or if they did not make the system requirements clear (i.e. it didn't work properly on a consumer's system because Valve did not list or listed misleading system requirements).

On top of that, anything sold through Steam with DRM cannot be returned fraudulently (e.g. the consumer can't buy then return a product while maintaining a functional copy for themselves, at least not without jumping through hoops).

So exactly why does their illegal-in-Australia policy exist in Australia? An unwillingness to learn the laws of a country that they sell to? A desire to reduce the support costs of managing software returns (e.g. validating that the reason for return is legitimate probably involves costly human interaction)?

Re:Don't see what Valve's problem is ...

[Barny]

They already can process refunds, I know that.

The case is in regards to them advertising that there are no refunds allowed, they are most certainly NOT allowed to do that. Note, if the product is not of merchantable quality, they can also be refunded (so no more buying a game that runs terribly or crashes a lot).

Why don't steam offer refunds.

[MrL0G1C]

I suspect that the reason steam don't offer refunds is that some many games can be completed in under 12 hours, sometimes just 4-8 hours.

Since steam is a DRM platform I think it is up to them to use some kind of metric in conjunction with the game creators to decide whether a game has been sufficiently played as to have been 'used'. Not all games have straight forward 'completion' and even if you 'complete' a game you may only have a 50% 'completion stat'

Steam already counts the number of hours a game has been played, I would say that playing a game for 5 hours would be good enough reason to refuse a refund in most cases, but there are always exceptions to the rule.

Does anyone really play Flappy Bird for more than an hour?

I certainly don't agree with a no refunds policy, but the situation clearly isn't cut and dried. With a bag of charcoal or ream of printer paper, you know if it is used, it's not so simple with a downloaded computer game.

Re:Why don't steam offer refunds.

[Barny]

They do refunds, but only if you push.

What the ACCC is upset about is that they don't, as you say, offer refunds. The laws are quite clear in regards to what must be refunded/replaced. If the product is not of merchantable quality, it must be refunded. If the product breaks within the accepted lifespan, it can be refunded, repaired or replaced (this could cover things like a honorific patch for a game that is force-installed).

And while measuring if the game runs might be one metric, it most certainly shouldn't be the only. For example: new Dungeon Defenders game, when you hit play in steam, it loads its own launcher that then downloads the game. I have 'played' for 6 hours and still never actually gotten into the game.

Re:Why don't steam offer refunds.

[timrod]

Correction to that: they do refunds, but only in one of two cases:

1. You bought the game as a pre-order and it has not yet been released.

2. They will occasionally do refunds as a "one-time customer support gesture".

I've seen a lot of stuff on Steam (and other distribution services that don't allow refunds) that makes me think we need a ruling like this in the United States.

Best recent example I can think of is a game called From Dust. From Dust had Ubisoft's always-online DRM on it, a fact that wasn't made clear for people who pre-ordered the game (it was like a $10 game and I had heard of the person directing it, so I bought it). I don't think a single mention of the DRM was made until a day or two after the game officially released. To make matters worse, the game ran like crap on pretty much every machine out there and had a whole bunch of stability issues. I logged almost an hour "played" trying to get the game to launch. There were people on Steam's forums calling for a refund due to the deceptive DRM practices. I actually applied for a refund, if I remember correctly, only to be told that I could get the refund as a "one-time customer support gesture".

Naturally, I didn't want to blow something like that on a $10 game, so I just kept it. I don't think Ubisoft ever actually fixed From Dust into a playable state, and I'm told it wasn't that great of a game anyway.

Re:Why don't steam offer refunds.

[Barny]

I got one on Brutal Legend that still advertises a version that 'Includes the full game and a copy of the Original Soundtrack!' but, when you get it, it doesn't come with the 'MASSIVE metal soundtrack from every era of metal music: 1970’s classic metal to 1980’s hair metal to the scarier cousins of 1990’s metal. And of course, Jack Black pays the ultimate homage to metal as Eddie the Roadie, continuing the theme from the work of his band, Tenacious D and his previous films like School of Rock and High Fidelity.' instead, supplying you with the crappy orchestral pieces they used.

They seemed very reluctant to do the refund, and claimed (after I mentioned my consumer rights under Australian law) that the Australian consumer laws don't apply to them.

Following is transcript of the ticket:
----------
1 Message by you on Wed, 27th Feb 2013 3:06 am
Extremely misleading advertising. Can you please refund my special 'soundtrack' version of this game and change it to a standard one. I wanted the soundtrack that the description specifically LISTS has over 100 metal tracks.

"Music

The music in Brütal Legend is truly massive. Made up of 108 of the most rocking tracks from 75 different bands representing every sub-genre of metal, it is something to experience in and of itself."

This is what your page's description gives, what I got was 20 tracks by someone I have never heard of.
----------
2 Message by Support Tech Brad on Tue, 5th Mar 2013 5:04 pm
Hello,

Thank you for contacting Steam Support. We apologize for the long delay in getting a response to you.

Steam Support has recently had a higher volume of tickets and we are working to respond to everyone.

We have found that many users have resolved their issues since submitting their ticket.

Many answers to common problems with this game can be found in the Discussion pages of the forum for this game: http://forums.steampowered.com...

If you are still experiencing issues, we would like to help you resolve them.

Steam support can assist you with issues related to the Steam client. Many issues with installation can be fixed by verifying the files for this game. You can find instructions for verifying the files here: http://support.steampowered.co...

If you are experiencing issues with this game after it has been installed, launched and is running you will need to contact the developer’s support department. They will be able to help you with in game issues, performance problems, and other similar bugs.

You can find the contact information for the third party Support on the store page for the game or through the following link: https://support.steampowered.c...

If we don’t receive a response from you, this ticket will automatically close. We really appreciate your understanding and patience while we continue to work with the increased ticket volume.
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3 Message by you on Tue, 5th Mar 2013 6:47 pm
Right, did you read my question? Can you please do as I requested?

If this cannot be resolved I will be required to contact my local consumer affairs, this is false advertising of the worst order.
----------
4 Message by Support Tech Brad on Wed, 6th Mar 2013 11:30 am
Hello Byron,

Thank you for contacting Steam Support.

As with most software products, we do not offer refunds or exchanges on games, DLC or in-game items purchased on our website or through the Steam Client.

As a one-time customer service gesture we can issue you store credit for the amount of your purchase into your Steam Wallet. The credit will also remove the title or item from your account.

Please confirm that you would like us to proceed with this credit.
----------
5 Message by you on Wed, 6th Mar 2013 1:07 pm
That would be appreci

Re:Why don't steam offer refunds.

[AntiSol]

Just for the record, what you got is store credit, not the refund you were entitled to.

Complete bans

[MrL0G1C]

If anyone thinks

Valve had misled consumers by saying it "was not under any obligation to repair, replace or provide a refund for a game where the consumer had not contacted and attempted to resolve the problem with the computer game developer

is bad they should remember that Valve can and does sometimes revoke accounts - that can mean the loss of dozens of games and software in one go.

Steam being hugely convenient to consumers != Valve or DRM are always great.

Re:Complete bans

[TubeSteak]

is bad they should remember that Valve can and does sometimes revoke accounts - that can mean the loss of dozens of games and software in one go.

That sounds like an argument for stronger consumer protection laws.

Good luck with that

[Anon E. Muss]

Option #1: Valve has no physical presence in Australia, and tells the Australian government to go fuck themselves. Government responds by banning Valve from doing business in Australia. Good luck enforcing that. To the extent they do manage to enforce it, it will be taking action against Australian citizens, since they have no power over Valve.

Option #2: Valve doubles prices in Australia. Y'all can have all the consumer protection you want, but you're going to pay for it.

Re:Good luck with that

[MrL0G1C]

Option #3 Valve gives refunds, the world doesn't end.

Re:Good luck with that

[Anonymous Coward]

Come now, the internet is no place for a logical point reasonably expressed.

Re: Good luck with that

[Demena]

Have you any idea of the complexity of international trading laws? None of your hypothetical is possible.

Re:Good luck with that

[Nemyst]

Prices are already doubled in Australia. Surely their long-standing ripoff prices can be used to offset the generally small amount of refunds going on?

Re:Good luck with that

[Jeeeb]

When Valve has local (already higher than US) pricing in Australian dollars and forces people through their Australian store it is hard to argue that they don't have a business presence in Australia. Similarly when retail box games sold in Australia require Valve to be installed, it is hard to argue they don't have a local business presence.

I'm not sure if Valve does have assets in Australian but in the event they did attempt a "runner", the logical method for enforcing the ruling would be to sue them somewhere they do have assets. Courts aren't going to look nicely on failure to comply with court orders issued after due process of law, in countries that you had a business presence in.

Sorry Valve has to cop it

[AbRASiON]

but someone needs to fucking pay the god damned price for ripping us off. If you're going to charge us significantly more than other countries for DIGITAL fucking content, then we damn well better get something for it.

Did I mention that we used to pay the same price as the states for this stuff? Until Valve and Steam got their shit together and set up regions / regional pricing and billing properly? Once they did, the publishers (most likely) told Valve "to fuck them" (for the most part the actual Valve games are priced the same as the US)

Oh it's not just us, the UK got thoroughly fucked by this too.

Re:Sorry Valve has to cop it

[Darinbob]

Nonsense. Consumer protection is probably worth only 1% of a game's price. Unless the company is putting out games where most of the customers are going to complain about it.

Re:Sorry Valve has to cop it

[HuguesT]

Typical libertarian stance with no relation with reality whatsoever. If you have no consumer protection you pay more, simply because the seller can pull out any scam without consumer recourse. Plus the Americans do have effective consumer protection.

You do not seem to understand

[Demena]

Any "dick move" would be at minimum, contempt of court. That is extraditable and yes, the U.S. And Australia have a treaty. Many treaties. Not all are economic. You have no idea how deep this could go. No one enjoys a shit fight. It would not be allowed to get that far. Most probably this is happening and happening right because the ACCC wants to get up the nose of the horribly consumer unfriendly new Abbot government.

Re:Wow

[Issarlk]

I'm in the exact same situation and hope that Australia shaft Steam deep and hard. I haven't spent a single euro on Steam since, but still got whatever game I was interested in legally and downloadable on Steam. Granted it was mostly indie games, and those always offer Steam code because Steam is admitedly freaking good, despite it's abysmal policies.