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Washington DC To Return To Automatic Metro Trains
Bruce66423 (1678196) writes with news of interest to anyone with reason to ride mass transit in the U.S., specifically on the D.C. Metro system: After a crash some five years ago, automatic operation was abandoned. Now however replacement of 'faulty' modules means that moving the whole system on to automatic operation can happen. One quote is depressing: "And because trains regularly lurch to a halt a few feet short of where they should be at platforms, Metrorail riders have grown accustomed to hearing an announcement while they're waiting to board: 'Stand clear. Train moving forward.'" That never happens on the London underground with human operators? What's wrong with American drivers?
Never seems to happen in New York. What's the problem in DC?
> What's wrong with American drivers?
DC's metro trains were designed to be operated automatically the vast majority of the time. Hence, the acceleration and braking systems were optimized for automatic operation (as opposed to manual operation) and it is difficult for a human driver to control the train's movements precisely and smoothly.
For example the central line has been automated since the 90s. Drivers there just to go on strike
The author is spot on. Trains used to stop in the center of the platform - typically a six car train on a platform that is eight cars long. Since the accident referenced in the article, the trains now stop as far forward as possible - I guess to give the following train a few extra feet to avoid more metro fatalities ... Anyway, it is just stupid to watch the train stop a meter or two short, then nudge forward just to be all the way up.
Don''t even get me started about how they figure out how full cars are ... ok since you asked. You get a bunch of metro employees with clipboards, have them all gather in a gaggle at the bottom level of the Rosslyn stop, yapping away the increased fare I pay.
Also, don't get me started about the Metro - give land worth millions to developers in exchange for a parking garage that will subsequently be overfilled by the development.
Further, don't get me started about orange line service since they added the silver line. adding lines without noting that they all go through one tunnel ...
The Red Line crash was not computer-related. The signalling system for the Washington Metro is a classic electromechanical relay-based system. Just like the New York subways. The Red Line crash was caused by a failure of a track circuit for detecting trains, trackside equipment using an audio-frequency signal sent through the rails and shorted to the other rail by the train's wheels. All those components are pre-computer technology.
As with most railway systems, manual driving isn't enough to prevent collisions, because stopping distances are often longer than visual distances. That was the case here.
The Washington Metro had been sloppy about maintenance of trackside equipment. They do have a central computer system, and it logs what the relay-based signal systems are doing, although it can't override them. They had logs of previous failures, and should have fixed the problem.
Most of the humanoids inhabiting DC are thugs. A heavy dose of gamma radiation would work wonders.
Can we start at the Potomac, say Little Falls Branch to Anacostia, and sweep northeast until we hit Maryland? It would be better if Congress was in session.
DC's subway system uses a patronage policy.
Is this the actual case?
No, except for the bit about it being underfunded and therefore not as well maintained as it should be. Which is a shame, because it's a fantastic piece of infrastructure, much nicer to ride than (say) most of the London Underground or the NYC Subway.
No, it's not used by thugs mainly. The Metro and the buses are the way most people get to work at federal buildings. 25000 people work at the Pentagon and it has a very busy bus depot and rail station.
Don't be so sure.
What's wrong with American drivers? Well to begin with, they all drive like assholes.
American drivers drive like Americans!
Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
Well, when you consider that "thug" is dog-whistle for "black," maybe it's just that your friends are too racist.
Isn't Washington D.C. a black-majority city? What would be surprising about most of its transit riders, and most of its criminals, being black?
Can't tell if real or sarcasm. Well played (or my sympathies) .
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
While the traditional London Underground has drivers, that's pretty much just because the powerful union in charge won't let them be upgraded to be driverless. We've had reliable, safe driverless trains for over 25 years on the 45-station Docklands Light Railway in the East of London.
A pizza of radius z and thickness a has a volume of pi z z a
That never happens on the London underground with human operators?
Are you asking a question or making a statement? Hello, editors?
Now however replacement of 'faulty' modules
Is that what they call human drivers now?
systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
Really now?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thuggee
You are also drunk or high or racist. Thanks republicans.
Americans.
Had to be said :)
As MightyYar said, that's going by 30 year old technology for the train automation. Also very few people think that self-driving cars are ready today, more like 5-10 years in the future, minimum.
I don't read AC A human right
First, as of 2010, DC was about 50% Black, 39% White, plus everybody else. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D.... As a (White) DC resident who moved back here a couple of years ago, one of the things I enjoy about the Metro is the casual, random, cheerful conversations I have with my fellow riders who happen to be Black. Second, I live in DC and ride Metro regularly. Occasionally there are annoying people (often Black), but very rarely threatening ones. Cell phone theft on the Metro is a danger here, like most places (and police don't seem to care anywhere). Third, Metro needs to better enforce its rules against food and drink (and smoking) in the system. In effect, Metro no longer enforces that rule so the cars can be a mess. I encountered a White guy smoking on a platform earlier this year and asked him to put it out. He blew me off, quite obnoxiously.
Oh, you mean that their friends were literally talking about a certain ancient group of professional assassins that have commandeered the DC metro, but accidentally said the word "thugs" instead of Thugee? That explanation sure makes a lot of sense!
IIRC in one of the crashes the driver was stoned; may have been the one in the 80's the same day that plane crashed into the bridge.
Nothing's surprising about it. Doesn't stop people from being too scared to sit next to a black guy.
That never happens on the London underground
Neither it does on Paris' underground lines, whether automatic or not
That's called corruption. I have a $900 device that can stop at 0.01mm. D.C. has a subway systems that costs billions and they can't stop within a foot? This isn't the 1800's. Just your average crony capitalism at work.
Washington, D.C. is not London !
I always wondered why they had drivers. How hard is it to start and stop a train? I asked one of my Japanese coworkers why he thinks they have drivers, what with all the technology in Japan and all, and his reply was very insightful: "they have drivers so they can blame/fire someone if something goes wrong".
THAT is why trains have drivers.
Basically, the regular speed commanded by the automated system on that track is 55mph. When crossing the faulty circuit, the speed command becomes 0 and the train slows (but does not trigger emergency braking). For automatic trains, before the train came to a stop, momentum had already carried it forward into a working circuit and resumed normal speed commands. In the 2009 crash, the struck train was being manually operated below 55mph. Because of this it took less distance for the operator to respond to the 0 command and stop the train. The train came to a stop entirely within the faulty circuit and became effectively "invisible." The train behind it was commanded by the system to proceed at 55mph and didn't have time to slow very much once the stopped train came into view and the emergency brake was activated.
The system knows that a train entered a segment of the track between two stops. The system also knows that the train did not arrive at the next stop.
Any automatic train control system which lets another train enter the segment where the missing train must be is a death trap which should have been replaced during the 1980s at the latest.
The automatic system was fine for nearly 40 years. The upgrade process killed nine people and injured 80 and caused a safe system that ran reliably for nearly 40 years to run in "manual" mode for five years because of a maintenance error.
Several depositions from railroad workers who were tasked with upgrading Metro's nearly 40-year-old system mentioned a real problem. The signals were "bobbing." This happened because the older signal system was being replaced with a different vendor's technology in two phases with catastrophic results.
In phase one, the lineside signal cabinet equipment was replaced but the original track sensors were left. In other cases, it was reversed: the track sensors were replaced but the lineside signal cabinet equipment was original. In both cases the vendor was different and not totally compatible.
Naturally, as we would expect, the two different vendors' equipment was not interfacing perfectly. This caused signal "bobbing," where track occupancy would "bob" from red to green repeatedly. Trains would vanish from the system. Phantom trains would appear in the system.
This massive oversight reported in the depositions wasn't really taken seriously in the press nor by the accident investigation. From this point of view, the system failed due to incompatible equipment made to interface in order to save money and service disruptions. They didn't interface properly, and people died as a result. Nobody seems to care about what appears to be the real problem: incompatible vendors made to interface to save time and money.
But we now have faster trains with shorter headways that sometimes fail to stop at the correct spot in stations, so we have that going for us. At least the lineside cabinet equipment and track sensors are now from the same vendor, eliminating the problem that killed those people and put hundreds of thousands of others at risk for a couple of years until that deadly day in 2009.
Kriston
Completely false!! You're thinking of an Amtrak crash caused by two stoned Conrail engineers. That has nothing to do with this conversation in any way.
Kriston
I'ld take that bet.
too racist.
No such thing.
Well, when you consider that "thug" is dog-whistle for "black," maybe it's just that your friends are too racist.
Or they've watched FoxNews more than once.
What's wrong with American drivers? Well to begin with, they all drive like assholes.
American drivers drive like Americans!
Now you're just being redundant...
In contrast, the Danish Copenhagen Metro went into operation late 2002. After extensive teething problems during the first years of operation, I was very surprised at just how well this driverless system now functions. Additionally, the design and architecture is extremely futuristic. The above ground sections linking the CBD with the airport are more reminiscent of scenes from Star-Trek. Though quite small (2 lines), it is currently undergoing a city-wide expansion phase. In cases of extreme winter weather, the above ground sections sometimes have to be manually controlled to ensure the system does not interpret heavy snow as an obstacle. Despite this requirement, there is no actual operator cabin, so passengers can sit right at the front and enjoy the scenery ahead through the large glass windows. For those looking for a solid and efficient metro transport solution, look no further.
How can elevators by "dysfunctional"?
Is that the Beltway English?
I live in Nuremberg, Germany. 2 of 3 subway lines are fully automatic. They run much more often than with drivers, and this is actually MIXED operation: the third line, that is still driver operated, shares the tracks on the middle section through the city. Nuremberg was the first city to have such a mixed-mode subway.
They are on time for the most part, stop within a few cm of where they are supposed to each time, and are just a normal part of life. I've read about an occasional hiccup but never experienced one myself, and I don't think it's more than it would be in the "old system". The biggest stops were due to worker strikes, not technology issues. They didn't lay off anyone, by the way.
Anyway, it is just unexciting business as usual for me any more, nothing special.
Video (1min): https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
http://www.railway-technology....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N...
much nicer to ride than (say) most of the London Underground
You mean you don't like the Northern Line at rush hour? Do you have some weird objection to having your face jammed into some giant's armpit for 30 minutes in 35 degree heat or something?
SJW n. One who posts facts.
This *does* happen on the London Underground - but only those lines that still have drivers. The Victoria and DLR have been fully automatic for decades, the Northern line has recently been upgraded to a fully automatic system. These lines, to my knowledge, always stop at the correct point on the platform.
The drivers are needed in case there are unexpected obstructions on the line.
If that were correct how would the Docklands Light Railway operate above ground without any drivers at all? The sad reason that drivers are needed is because of the unions. They automated the Victoria line years ago (1960s) but the unions threatened action and the resulting chaos that a drivers strike would have caused on the lines which were not automated forced them to keep drivers on each train even though they are completed unnecessary.
What's wrong with American drivers? Well to begin with, they all drive like assholes.
Now now, that's not really true. Many of them drive like idiots.
So far I've found the best drivers in the country to be from NY or CA. However, there are many shit drivers around places with a lot of money. Go figure. In the latter case you see it exemplied whilst passing through Marin. Always getting cut off by some dickwad in a Mercedes which doesn't even have plates yet.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Since London Underground trains are all the same length, they're all pretty much the same weight (160 tonnes give or take twenty for passengers using the D78 stock electric units in trains of six cars). For the driver, this means that standing on the brake when you hit the brakepoint (or letting the e-brake take it when you hit the warning point) stops the train on the same spot every time: within a foot or two and ALWAYS behind the stopgate at the far end of the platform. Experienced commuters know where to stand on the platform so the train stops when the door is directly in front of them. BTW the Victoria line is still crew-served. The only true crewless train operating in the UK is the Gatwick APM (everything is automatic - and there are only two stops). Glasgow's subway is crew served in the sense of the doors being manually controlled.
Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
This comment is actually interesting, not redundant...
> IIRC in one of the crashes the driver was stoned
They still get stoned in Iran and Saudi Arabia. What should they receive for killing 8 or 9 people, candy bars?
DC metro system if probably the worst i've used. I used to take it to work for two years.
Red line is constantly delayed during rush hours. on the weekend, the wait between trains is 22 mins. trains with broken AC.
blue line isnt't any better, and now that they connected the silver line to all of mclean, 3 lines share the same rail.
no thanks. the only positive side to this is the awful jerky movement some drivers do will stop.
still, being inside a stopped train for 30 mins with broken AC and leaking water from the ceiling, not worth it.
Like all things DC related, we've become accustomed to a lower level of service. When you have single party rule, or you eliminate consequences and risk for the elected, you get lax leaders.
Only the dead have seen the end of War. - Plato
Stand clear. Train moving forward. Nothing is wrong with the American drivers. Give them a break. You don't see me complaining about the trams in Melbourne, Australia being stuck in traffic. At the train driver/conductor didn't overshoot the platform by 60 feet. If the first car is not on the platform, then passengers cannot disembark or alight the train.
A thug is a gang member, usually an enforcer or other low-level muscle, or someone who acts like one. . Just because Dick Sherman wants it purged as a code-word doesn't make it so.
Although the idea of avoiding the D.C. metro because it's full of thugs is pretty funny. Unless you include people who do legal violence as well as physical in "thug".
Automation by Congress. And thus the total fuster-cluck.
London's DLR has had a few safety stuff ups, some computer related, some not...
http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/5.29.html#subj3
http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/11.52.html#subj1.1
http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/26.01.html#subj5
Tokyo was rolling that out when I wrapped my commercial duty tour in 1978. The recently finished Oedo Line, newest in the system, runs on linear induction motors. That means no more overhead network of catenaries to deliver power.
I'll sit next to whoever I like, people are more likely to be intimidated by me (6'8") than I by them.
Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
photo of subway train on top of another is shocking to say the least http://www.wjla.com/articles/2014/09/metro-to-resume-use-of-computer-driven-trains-for-first-time-since-2009-deadly-crash-107345.html
This is actually one of those things I thought about a lot while riding the red line metro to and from work each week.
I've noticed that among other things, there seem to be a couple of metro drivers who like to operate the trains at speeds as fast as possible between stops, rather than just pacing it more sensibly. They'll rapidly accelerate, headed westbound out of a station like the Bethesda or Friendship Heights location, only to wind up stopping in the middle of the track someplace before the White Flint stop because they have to "wait for another train directly in front of them".
I've also experienced the trains that always seem to stop short of a station and then jerkily move into position before opening the doors. I can understand the problem if all of the trains really do behave differently and drivers have to get used to differences between each one. But there are definitely other times I take the train and it's very consistent in speed and smooth at every single stop.
Another oddity I've noticed with the DC red line is the fact that only Verizon customers get cellular service while the train is in the tunnels. All other carriers lose signal until the trains get back outside. (I'm told this is due to some old, outdated exclusive contract Verizon made with them to wire up the tunnels. It was since struck down as illegal so all carriers can now add service there -- but apparently none have been interested in spending the money to do so, yet.)
And as for the people talking about thugs and crime on the metro? I have to say, I've honestly not experienced much of that. I'm sure things are a bit different if you're taking the train late at night on a weekend after hitting the bars or clubs. But at least during the rush hours for commuters, I see practically everyone using a tablet or smartphone, or even a laptop on the train -- and have yet to see one get snatched out of someone's hands.
The only crazy issue I ran into was this 20-something guy who got on a train in the morning with a radio in his shirt pocket blasting loud, annoying techno music. At first, I don't think most people pinpointed where it was coming from and patiently waited for whoever it was to realize their headphone plug came loose or what-not. Then we started figuring out the guy had no earphones and was doing this on purpose. A guy sitting beside me who was trying to read a book asked the guy, politely, if he could turn the music down -- and the guy got all aggressive, challenging us to fight with him if we didn't like it and calling us all "lemmings" and so on.
(I told him his lousy techno soundtrack wasn't even worth fighting over.) This went on for several stops until he finally ran off the train at the Medical Center stop. Like someone else posted above, it doesn't seem like the posted rules (No eating/drinking on the train, no music players without use of headsets etc.) get enforced very well.
No... I really can't blame this on the PA equipment. I agree that at times it's not the best (some metro cars have a blown or intermittently working speaker). But the OP is correct. The majority of metro drivers just mumble the names of the stops. It's actually almost a shocking change when I get a driver who is well spoken, who choose to speak a little bit more than just some garbled version of the name of the next stop. When that happens, you can hear them perfectly over the PA.
"...That never happens on the London underground with human operators? What's wrong with American drivers?..."
Litigious society.
I relocated her in '09. This is the least friendly subway system I know of... and I lived in Philly, and Chicago, and am familiar somewhat with NYC, and a little with Boston's, and have even done the BART a couple of times.
For no known reason, they'll wait anywhere from 5 to 40 seconds *after* they come to a complete halt to open the doors. I presume this is some pseudo-Saftty thing (also, presumably dreamed up by someone who's never ridden a subway). Then they don't seem to be looking - it's close the doors.
And they're sealed cars, so if the HVAC isn't working, it's sweltering... unless they just block off the car.
And I have NEVER, EVER seen so many trains taken out of service, and forcing everyone onto the platform. *Maybe* I can remember it once or twice in 30 or 40 years of riding subways; then I got here, and I can't count the number of times I've had to gett off the train, and squeeze into a massivly overcrowded one.
Automated is fine at an airport, with small, small crowds or groups. In a real city, with hundreds of thousands of people riding every day? You need human decision making. AI ain't there yet, not for this.
mark "we won't talk about the broken elevators, and stops with *no* stairs"
Here in Seoul, Korea, the trains stop where they are supposed to stop. Of course they have to: most of the platforms have glass walls with sliding doors between the tracks & the passengers. Tokyo? On a recent visit, trains stopped where the lines on the platform indicated they would stop. I'm from Washington DC, so seeing proper lines was a revelation.
On the other hand... In Brussels, I've seen riders literally fall over when drivers accelerated or braked too fast (braking is the best for that, was my impression). And as for stopping on the platform... they didn't seem to care much where they stopped.