Ask Slashdot: Finding a Job After Completing Computer Science Ph.D?

An anonymous reader writes I recently completed my PhD in computer science and hit the job market. I did not think I would have difficulty finding a job esp. with a PhD in computer science but I have had no luck so far in the four months I have been looking. Online resume submittals get no response and there is no way to contact anybody. When I do manage to get a technical interview, it is either 'not a good match' after I do the interviews or get rejected after an overly technical question like listing all the container classes in STL from the top of my head. I had worked as a C++ software developer before my PhD but in the past 6 years, software development landscape has changed quite a bit. What am I doing wrong? Has software development changed so much in the last 6 years I was in school or is my job hunting strategy completely wrong? (The PhD was on a very technical topic that has very little practical application and so working on it does not seem to count as experience.)

Comments

Read Slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

The site that teaches you to code well enough to get a job. Also, hide the PhD.

Re:Read Slashdot

[sabri]

Also, hide the PhD.

As weird as it may sound, this may help. You write yourself:

get rejected after an overly technical question

Advertising a PhD may come across as advertising that you think you're good. You may not mean it that way, but it will most certainly be received like that. I've performed many technical interviews and when I prepare myself for a candidate, I go over their resume (their ad). If the candidate advertises knowledge of a specific topic, he or she better know it.

The rejections you got may not have been because you didn't know a specific answer to a very technical question. Nobody knows everything. You may have been rejected because of the answer that you gave, and let me explain.

When I interview, I will make sure there is one topic with a couple of questions that I don't expect you to know from the top of your head. I will get online and get the answers if needed. I will ask the question (if we get to it) and see the response. If you get the answer right: well done, you will have my vote. If you don't then this is where the psychology comes in. I'll be looking for you to be honest. Don't make up answers, don't come up with a bullshit reply. If I get bullshit, no matter how good you were, you will fail the interview. If you bullshit me, you'll bullshit a customer, manager or anyone else when you're in the hot seat.

Don't underestimate the importance of attitude and honesty in an interview.

Re:Read Slashdot

[ShanghaiBill]

Also, hide the PhD.

This is good advice. My experience is that PhDs are negatively correlated with "getting stuff done". My company has hired people in spite of their PhDs, but the PhD is a definite negative. I don't think that PhDs cause people to become ditherers and procrastinators, but rather that graduate schools tend to attract those kind of people. The submitter is a good example. You don't wait till you graduate to start looking for a job. You start when you are a freshman, by applying for internships, and getting work experience outside academia. More than half our new hires are ex-interns. We know what they can do, and they are already familiar and comfortable with our company culture.

Re: Read Slashdot

[ShanghaiBill]

How do you then explain the 6 year gap in your resume?

You could say that for the last six years you were a volunteer jihadi for ISIS. That would be bad, but it would cover the gap, and would not be as bad as admitting that you have a PhD.

Re: Read Slashdot

[Archangel Michael]

I started to hate ________, and I didn't want to. I did __________ (unrelated thing) for a few years to recharge. I miss it, and have been working to catch up on the last six years.

That is my exact story. I've been doing IT for 30+ years, and there is a six year (yup) period when I sold cars. People SHOULD take time off, or risk burning out. I'd rather have someone who took time off, than someone that is on the verge of burning out.

Re: Read Slashdot

[CrudPuppy]

This is coming from someone who has been in IT for 20 years, very successfully, and has never taken any computer courses...

Get a freaking skill!!! The OP admits that the subject of the PhD is not applicable to really anything in the world. You might as well have spent 6 years of your life under a rock, because you are now the utmost expert at that tiny, inapplicable area.

Want cash and job security up the wahoo? Go pick up a CCNA book, and $500 of used Cisco gear on eBay. Get CCNA and a network admin job at a small, growing company who can't afford to pay you more than $50,000. Proceed to get your CCNP. Invest another $10,000 and two years and get CCIE. Go to "whatever the hell company you want" and make $120k+ and never worry about unemployment again.

Re: Read Slashdot

[Noah Haders]

-1 disagree. the best thing you have going for you right now is your phd. you committed to being a world expert in one particular realm of knowledge. I think a really fruitful path would be to look deeply into what doors that expertise opens for you. Better to do this than to walk away from the expertise and end up with the rest of the people here on slashdot.

second, follow your peers. where are all the other phds going? and what makes them qualified to go there?

I'm not surprised you're having poor luck in the general job market. the middle managers who are doing hiring will resent you for your intellect and success. this is why you get thrown the stupid questions like "name all the words in the dictionary from your head". they are tearing you down because they feel bad about where they are in their lives.

Re: Read Slashdot

[asliarun]

This is coming from someone who has been in IT for 20 years, very successfully, and has never taken any computer courses...

Get a freaking skill!!! The OP admits that the subject of the PhD is not applicable to really anything in the world. You might as well have spent 6 years of your life under a rock, because you are now the utmost expert at that tiny, inapplicable area.

Want cash and job security up the wahoo? Go pick up a CCNA book, and $500 of used Cisco gear on eBay. Get CCNA and a network admin job at a small, growing company who can't afford to pay you more than $50,000. Proceed to get your CCNP. Invest another $10,000 and two years and get CCIE. Go to "whatever the hell company you want" and make $120k+ and never worry about unemployment again.

+1. The key to long term success is being hardnosed about failures/setbacks/sub-optimal jobs, having long term focus, and putting yourself in a position where you can demonstrate your value and skills. But most of all, it is being pragmatic in the short term while being optimistic in the long term.

Having long term focus means picturing yourself on what you would consider a fulfilling job, and how exactly you see yourself and your job. Say, in 10 years. By focus, I mean take up a low paying job if necessary, as long as it is aligned to your long term goals. Good Example: Joining a company with a core focus on quality programming, but as a junior developer instead of a senior developer or lead or whatever else you might be expecting.
Bad Example: Joining the IT department (cost center) of say, a big manufacturing company. Might pay well in the short term, but will eventually be a dead-end for you.

Being hard-nosed means continue trying. Obviously, fine tuning or tweaking your strategy and where/how you are applying. By far, the easiest way to get into a company is through referrals. So can any of your buddies help you out? They get to make decent money through referral bonuses too. Also, is your location preference dragging you down? Again, in a long enough time-frame, say, 15 years from now, you will barely remember the extra 3 months (or 6 months or whatever) you put in during your initial struggling phase. So why bother getting demoralized by it now?

Lastly, don't get desperate to find a job. Your job and your company is as good as your boss. Use the interview process to figure out how much you like your future boss. If you boss isn't even interviewing you (rare, but happens), you probably don't want to work in that company to begin with.

And please remember - an extra 3-6 months of job hunting is way way better than making a mistake. Typically, from my experience, people take 2-3 years on average to fix a mistake (bad job, bad boss, bad company, bad growth opportunities).

Re:Read Slashdot

[Rogue974]

What sabri says is so true about the way you answer questions. I have recently been involved in trying to hire a controls engineer and one of the more important things I do is look for someone to say I don't know. I introduce myself at the start of a phone interview and let people know I am a controls engineer and I work on our systems, i.e. I am a technical person, not an HR person who has a list of questions.

Then the interview starts. Every few questions, I hit the candidate with a very technical question. I have a list of about 40 questions that I doubt tere are many people who would know all of the answers off the top of their head. Usually something very specific to our system. I expect the person to not be able to answer the question unless they have very strong experience with the same kind of system as we have. The answer I am looking for is something like:

I haven't worked on that, but I am confident that I could learn how that works.
or
It has been a long time since working on that. I remember this *insert simple, short explanation*, but know that if I looked it up in this reference text or googled it, it would come back to me.

That would usually lead to a follow up question about something that they learned about to reinforce that they feel they could learn it.

I had several candidates attempt to make up an answer and snow me. A few follow up questions and they usually figure out I know about it and they can't snow me. Usually it is too late though. I will give them a couple of chances with very difficult questions like this, but if they don't figure it out quickly and figure out the be honest piece, no chance I want to hire them.

If they have an advanced degree and apply for the jobs I am looking to fill, they don't even get interviewed because I know we won't be able to meet their salary and/or they will look to leave too quickly and I am looking for longer term candidates. I don't want to hire and train every 2-3 years.

Re: Read Slashdot

[Noah Haders]

well we don't know his field of expertise, so it's hard to judge. he knows best what he's useful for. have you heard the expression "face made for radio"?

Re: Read Slashdot

[ikedasquid]

I've worked with PhDs in a hands-on environment as well (apps/drivers and low-level embedded stuff). Several of them were great, and at least one sucked enough to be let go. One of them (Physics PhD, not Comp Sci) was one of the most talented low-level embedded SW Eng's I've worked with. Sweeping generalizations...

overqualified

[mpicpp]

Many companies are going to think you won't stay or will want too much money. You can hire a PhD from India for $1500 a month.

Re:overqualified

[Tablizer]

There's the solution: Pose as a $1500/mo. Indian PhD. Practice the accent.

Re:overqualified

[houstonbofh]

I read a similar story in the Microsoft CompTIA Security+ guidebook. Tthe guy outsourced his five remote jobs to people in China. He got caught when a security specialist for one company conducted an audit and noticed that the VPN token was logging in from China. Opps... He kissed five paychecks goodbye.

What an idiot. He should have had the subs loging in from a system in his home office. :)

Re:overqualified

[meta-monkey]

Sure, but half (or more) of the time, the Indian programmer doesn't actually have a real degree. We had this happen all the time when I was working for a consultant group. We'd get Indians who would claim to have a degree from Shrkekrlkajrthu University, but if anybody bothered to call good ol' SU, they had no record of them. Or, the Indian would pay SU $10k to give him a "degree" with no credits earned. Fraud. Lots and lots of fraud. Like, to the point where I had a database programmer working with me who didn't know what a join was. Shit you not.

Why?

[grumpyman]

I'm just curious on your initial motivation for a PhD? Maybe research/academic is an option?

Re:Why?

[i kan reed]

Or more pertinent to a PhD in particular is: what was your focus? A PhD isn't like a BS or even MS, it almost always reflects a near unique level of understanding something. What was it? What was your thesis? Why are you not working on that, in particular?

Re:Why?

[metlin]

Motivation notwithstanding, I would also suggest that you consider consulting.

I work in management consulting in one of the MBB firms, and we hire quite a few ADCs (Advanced Degree Candidates), particularly in the hard sciences.

The idea is that a PhD provides you with enough critical thinking and quantitative skills that would be extremely valuable in what you do. And you'd be surprised at the type of work that you'd get to do. As long as you have some semblance of social skills that can be cultivated and the ability to think quickly on your feet, you should be fine.

A good way to think about this is what happens when your senior client executive throws some numbers and asks you a question in the elevator -- can you quickly give an answer, and be professional and polite about it without becoming a nervous wreck?

Right now, I work with several PhDs and MDs in the healthcare payer/provider space, and their deep medical expertise is extremely valuable. We have similar profiles of folks with PhDs in mechanical/aeronautical/industrial engineering for industrial goods work, CS/EE PhDs in telecom/media/high-tech industry work and so on. You would be surprised at just how many PhDs, MDs, JDs, and the likes are hired by top tier consulting firms.

Despite what you may have heard of consulting on Slashdot and elsewhere, we do some pretty cool work. Yes, the hours aren't easy and you'll travel a lot, but consider it baptism by fire. In a span of two years, you would have worked on a wide array of projects and will have honed your hard and soft skills -- everything from building financial models to presenting to very senior executives.

And surprisingly, you will work with some very smart people. Yes, many of them may have MBAs, but just as many have other advanced degrees, and even the ones with MBAs also have pretty strong undergrad credentials (e.g., Harvard, MIT, Stanford), usually STEM.

So, whatever your motivations may have been, I will just say that consulting will teach you skills that are very hard to acquire elsewhere. It may be baptism by fire, but your value in the job market will grow by leaps and bounds.

Something to consider. :)

Re:Why?

[DanielOom]

If you have a Ph.D., you hopefully choice your research with care. If it is a theoretical topic, you should seek employment in academia or military. If it has practical applications, you should apply with a company that needs the fruits of your research or start your own company. You are convincing them to invest in your area of research: quite different from a MS in CS who looks for a menial job as a software engineer.

Re:Why?

[schlachter]

To this point...if you have a PhD, you're not really qualified as a software engineer/developer anyways. You probably shouldn't be applying to vanilla programming jobs and you shouldn't be in interviews where someone asks you detailed coding questions.

Find a job where you can leverage your skills as a scientist, as a researcher, and as someone who can write proposals and lead others.

List the STL? Seriously?

[ZorinLynx]

>technical question like listing all the container classes in STL from the top of my head

Do experienced devs even know this? I've programmed in several languages and I could never give a list of functions on demand. That's what reference material is for.

You honestly dodged a bullet with that one; any company that asks for such a thing has a damaged tech culture.

Re:List the STL? Seriously?

[IgnitusBoyone]

I'm no so sure its a horrible question. I would as an the receiver be very speculative of the presenter, but as a presenter I would be looking for the type of brush off response I get not an actual answer. Does the candidate reference a particular book or does he say he would go to stack exchange. I normally hate programming questions on interviews because its not how we work. We engineer so we draw things out write out UML or some type of logic flow then get to coding.

I personally build little modules then add on higher functional work loads until I have a finished product, asking a user to drop down a random maze algorithm is naive and doesn't really do much, but ask if the candidate happens to have that brain teaser memorized. Instead I like to ask questions that give me an idea of how a user approaches problems that can't be solved immediately and I think asking questions you don't expect an answer to can sometimes help.

Re:List the STL? Seriously?

[Tablizer]

listing all the container classes in STL from the top of my head

I was once was asked a similar kind of question about a library, and told them "I tend not to index them that way in my head. How about asking me what class or function I'd use to perform a particular task? That's how my head stores things."

They seemed to be satisfied with that response and proceeded to ask me "how to" code questions, which I readily answered.

Re:List the STL? Seriously?

[sconeu]

They may actually be looking to see if you're willing to say "I don't know".

My response would be twofold.

1) "C++03, C++11, or C++14? The Standards committee added some in each iteration."
2) "To be honest, I probably can't name them all off the top of my head. I could look them up (for C++03) in my copy of the standard, or use Google to find them all. However, I generally find that vector, list, set and map tend to meet most of my needs. If I need something specialized, I'll look it up."

Use a headhunter and resume writer

[ageoffri]

Since you didn't mention these two things, they are my suggestion. First pay a professional company to re-write your resume, I did this 3 years ago and it was night and day difference. I think I spent about $800, they also wrote a linkedin profile for me to paste there. Next research and find a good recruiting company and let them do some of the searching for you. Just know that these days the best recruiters don't charge you, they make their money from the company that hires you.

Re:Job market does not like PhDs

[PIBM]

Exactly; even a master degree is shunned upon here. If you want to promote your PHD then the academic world is indeed for you, else, try to start low, you should be able to climb pretty fast.

Best to pretend you don't have the PhD...

[dills]

Look, the phd is not going to open very many doors in this industry. This is one of the most severe industries for devaluing advanced degrees and instead almost all value is placed on demonstrable experience.

So basically, as a PhD, you're just (in their eyes) an inexperienced programmer who has unrealistic salary fantasies.

The PhD may help you in academic circles, but in the IT industry, it just represents prime years spent on something that brings no value to the company wanting to hire you.

Don't put PhD in the resume

[PHPNerd]

I know it's sad, but hide your PhD. Most employers are scared of PhD's for multiple reasons: (1) they don't want to pay them what their credentials demand , (2) many hiring bosses are intimidated or feel threatened to have an underling with more education than they do, and (3) they are probably hesitant to invest in someone who is so highly credentialed for fear of losing them when a sweet offer comes around. Sad, I know. But I'd go ahead and hide the PhD. (Disclaimer: I'm working on mine now)

Re:Don't put PhD in the resume

[i kan reed]

How do you address the "gaps in employment" problem that presents?

ask your advisor

[crgrace]

Surely your advisor has links to industry? Where does the funding come from? Industrial consortia? Federal sources (NSF / DOE / etc). Can you look at doing a postdoc at a National Lab so you can make some contacts? If you don't, ask your advisor for help. It is the least he or she can do for you.

I don't think resume sites are good places for a newly minted PhD to look for work. You surely did some networking while you were a student. Did you present your research at some conferences? Those are the people you should be talking to about work, not filling out on-line applications. At the PhD level you find work based on a personal network, not web-based applications (although you will need to fill those out for compliance).

Leave the PhD off your CV for a couple of years.

[Ami Ganguli]

It's not fair, but it's probably better to just list your master's for now.

Right now they figure you won't be happy with a junior position, but you don't have the experience from them to trust you with something more senior. Once you've got a bit of experience put the PhD back on. It will help you land more senior jobs later.

Why did you get a PhD?

[langelgjm]

I'm in a totally different field, but I just finished a PhD, and I'm currently in a two-year postdoc.

Why did you get a PhD? You said you already worked as a software developer before, so it's not like you went straight through school because you didn't know what else to do. You also said your thesis was on a technical topic without practical application, so it doesn't sound like you were aiming for a non-academic job.

What kind of job did you want when you started? An academic job, then changed your mind? If so, you will have to be very intentional about selling yourself to employers. Frame the PhD as giving you experience in how to do research. It's going to be the rare employer who actually cares about what you did specifically.

It sounds like you are just firing off online job applications. Have you networked? Does anyone from your department know folks in industry? Did you apply for postdoctoral positions, research fellowships, etc.? If you are just looking at standard development positions, you are probably going to be rejected as being overqualified.

Coder?

[Princeofcups]

The question is, why are you looking for a common coding job? You need to spend a bit of money with one of the exclusive headhunters, who can find you positions with trading companies, NSA (don't snicker), and other places where an average coder could never do.

Re:Coder?

[Anonymous Coward]

This.

The typical coding job is taking technology X to put database column Y into text box Z. I'm only an Infosystems B.S. and the industry bores me to tears. I couldn't imagine being a Ph.D.

Somewhere out there is an awesome job that I'm not even remotely qualified for, but that guy is. He needs to find it.

Re:Job market does not like PhDs

[cayenne8]

Develop your people skills..and NETWORK network, network!!

Who you know and how you present yourself often counts more than just pure technical skill or degrees. You need a basic degree to get in the door most places, but BS, charm and ability to speak to others in a cohesive manner, along with general personal hygiene (amazing this still gets overlooked by some folks in tech????) will get you a long way.

Personally, I've never been all THAT good at any job in the IT field I've ever done, but I am able to present myself and stand up to at least a small audience and talk when required to.

Doing that, networking with folks, keeping in touch as they move to new jobs, etc....always is the fast track to get a job.

With you and school...start reaching back to your classmates and instructors and see who they know they can put you in contact with.

99% of the time, it is who you know, not so much what you know (unless it is brain surgery).

Don't put PhD in the resume

[technomom]

I don't think it's a matter of intimidation. Quite the opposite. To some folks, "PhD in CompSci" means, "I didn't have the chops to get a programming job while getting my undergraduate degree so I just stayed in school." Yeah, harsh, but that's the feeling out there. Most really good programmers don't bother with higher degrees because they're employable from the get-go.

Google?

[richieb]

Have you applied to Google?

are you sure there is no practical application

[crgrace]

You assert without proof that your research has no practical application. Were your researching how to implement LOGO in VAX assembly language or something?

More to the point, if your research was on the cutting edge of Computer Science I assure you it has practical applications. Use some of the research skills that you gained obtaining your PhD and put them to use identifying companies that have business or research interests in line with your own. Then, using LinkedIn or conference proceedings, identify researchers and engineers with interests similar to your own and contact them. Ask to set up informational interviews. See if they "know anyone" looking for new researchers. Build a network tirelessly until you have a job.

You have a PhD. You're not a programmer anymore. Accept it and don't look for programming jobs. Most organizations that are pushing the state-of-the-art have need for PhD-level people. Find them and find your niche.

Re:Time gap in CV

[Minwee]

Tell them you were in rehab for heroin addiction for those six years. It's more acceptable.

"12 days clean, praise Jesus!"

He's looking for a job in IT, not running for Mayor of Toronto.

List the STL? Seriously?

[pruss]

I've conducted a lot of interviews (in an academic setting in the humanities), and I can say that it's risky guessing what exactly the interviewer is trying to accomplish with a question. Sometimes a question is asked neither to see if someone knows the answer to the question nor to see the content of the interviewee's answer, but to see how the person handles being asked such a question. I could see someone deliberately asking a question that he know the candidate not to know the answer to just for such a purpose, though personally I would avoid doing it as it's neither nice nor useful to stress out the interviewee even more (but I might do it in a mock interview preparing someone for a real interview).

So the interviewer might be interested to see if the interviewee honestly, humbly and politely says: "Would you like me to tell you the container classes I use the most? The others I have to look up when I need them", or if the person pretends to know the answer, or rudely bristles, or tries to weasel out of the question by changing the topic (of course it might be a bonus if the interviewee actually has a great memory and knows all the container classes; but then another question might need to be asked to gauge character).

Re:Job market does not like PhDs

[mc6809e]

Why promote a PhD? 75% of US professors are adjuncts and earn less than $24,000/year. Good luck with that ivory tower dream. Learn plumbing.

A non-tenured adjunct lecturer became President of the USA, so there's that, too.

Openings are rare, though.

Re:Job market does not like PhDs

[Darinbob]

Any place that shuns someone with a masters degree is pretty sucky, I feel sorry for you. There are many companies that value people with education. Do you really think at the CTO and architect level that they prefer BA to BS, and BS to MS, and MS to PhD? Granted, fresh graduates don't get those jobs but people do work up to them. Not everyone is in the trenches forever doing coding that other people tell them to do, eventually there's someone in the company that has to actually know something, if the company is worth anything.