Debian Switching Back To GNOME As the Default Desktop

Why not KDE by Shaman · 2014-09-23 12:06 · Score: 2, Insightful

Maybe Gnome is friendlier for noobs or something. Are there noobs left in the world?

--
...Steve

Re:Why not KDE by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-23 12:14 · Score: 5, Interesting

Gnome is drastically different than any other environment out there. I can't imagine it being a good choice for noobs. MATE is a better choice because it is more familiar to Windows users. Unity is a good choice for Mac OS X users because of some similarities. GNOME is like neither. A noob would be lost.
Re:Why not KDE by rcht148 · 2014-09-23 12:15 · Score: 2

Linux noobs generally do NOT use Debian.
They start with ubuntu or some of it's derivative like Mint.
On a personal note, I use Linux Mint as my primary OS and recommend it to any noob who asks me on how to start using Linux. I have no qualms admitting myself as a Linux noob :)
Re:Why not KDE by dosius · 2014-09-23 12:24 · Score: 2, Informative

MATE is also more familiar to users of previous versions of Debian, which is why I use it on my netbook.

--
What you hear in the ear, preach from the rooftop Matthew 10.27b
Re:Why not KDE by mythosaz · 2014-09-23 12:37 · Score: 2

...said the AC.
Re:Why not KDE by kelemvor4 · 2014-09-23 12:51 · Score: 3, Insightful

Why KDE? KDE sucks for noobs and oldfags alike. Gnome is still better, and a simple text console is the best.
Then man up and run slack.
Re:Why not KDE by Lunix+Nutcase · 2014-09-23 14:10 · Score: 4, Informative

Unity is a good choice for Mac OS X users because of some similarities.

Clearly you've never used OS X for any amount of time to make such a ridiculous claim. Unity is almost nothing like OS X beyond a couple of superficial similarities that, outside of the left hand buttons, don't even functionally act the same as the OS X counterpart it is trying to mimic. Long-time OS X users tend to despise Unity for its superficial cargo cult look.
Re:Why not KDE by s.petry · 2014-09-23 15:06 · Score: 4, Insightful

KDE has features that Gnome has refused to implement. Gnome 3 promised Kiosk features similar to what KDE has had since version 2.0, never happened. They refuse to allow root access to the Window manager, and sometimes it's needed (CAD/CAE applications). To top all that off, it's far less flexible than KDE.
Desktop control is required in some environments, which rules out all of the Linux desktops except for KDE. So maybe for you KDE sucks, but from a enterprise and compliance perspective it's both exceptional and essential.
Further, I have had better experiences with KDE all the way around. I don't have issues controlling menus, location of "start" items, window tiling, multiple displays and desktops, sounds, or any of the other areas where Gnome and Unity are both problematic and inferior in my experience. KDE's speed has always been better than Gnome as well. I'm sure my hardware selection plays a role in that, so again your experiences may differ from mine.
You can claim that emacs is better than vi just like you can claim that Gnome is better than KDE. Different people have different experiences, and will claim the opposite. Neither side is wrong necessarily.

--
-The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.
Re:Why not KDE by FatdogHaiku · 2014-09-23 15:16 · Score: 3, Funny

Are there noobs left in the world?
For some reason some people keep creating new ones.

--
You have the right to remain sentient. If you give up the right to remain sentient, you will be elected to public office
Re:Why not KDE by MBGMorden · 2014-09-23 15:41 · Score: 2, Insightful

I've been using Linux since 1997 (pretty much exclusively since 2009). I still prefer MInt over anything else. Eye candy is good, package management is good - and it is the primary platform for Cinnamon which removes all the retarded aspects of Gnome 3 to make it back into a decent desktop UI.

--
"People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
Re: Why not KDE by loufoque · 2014-09-23 15:49 · Score: 3, Insightful

I don't understand what you mean by desktop control and root access.
Care elaborating?
Re:Why not KDE by kamapuaa · 2014-09-23 17:15 · Score: 3, Insightful

I've used OS X for 4-5 years and have used Unity since it came out, and I find them very similar. There's differences, but they're much more like each other than they're like Windows. My wife, who isn't a computer person and has always used Macs, occasionally uses Unity on my laptop, and finds it almost the same as Mac except the colors are different.
Jeff

--
Slashdot: providing anti-social weirdos a soapbox, since 1997.
Re:Why not KDE by SalafranceUnderhill · 2014-09-23 19:35 · Score: 2

signed or unsigned?
Re:Why not KDE by nukenerd · 2014-09-23 20:42 · Score: 2

RTFA. It said they changing the default from Xfce, not KDE

How many of you are still using Gnome? by Taco+Cowboy · 2014-09-23 12:08 · Score: 5, Insightful

I have stopped using Gnome ever since the developers decided to stop listening to the users and fucked up the whole thing

--
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !

Re:How many of you are still using Gnome? by thule · 2014-09-23 12:42 · Score: 2

I still use it. It works for me. I like the clean interface. I like the search function (tracker). I like the way it integrates with OwnCloud (really easy). I just like the overall feel of the environment. Way better than OpenWindows or CDE. BTW, I'm not a new Linux user. I started with Linux and fvwm sometime around 1993-1994. I started out on Yggdrasil and Slackware and whatever "distro" I downloaded off a BBS in 1992 (but didn't really do anything with it other than boot it up).
Re:How many of you are still using Gnome? by Pichu0102 · 2014-09-23 12:57 · Score: 2

You're in luck then, Debian is still way back in the days when GNOME 2 was new!
Re:How many of you are still using Gnome? by RightwingNutjob · 2014-09-23 13:28 · Score: 2, Informative

Mod parent up further. I didn't realize how badly the GNOME team screwed the pooch until I tried running Deb 7 and Deb 8 testing to get a new laptop to work.

I am at a complete loss as to why I should have to use a click-and-drag "swipe" gesture to unlock the screen on my workstation in the default configuration of GNOME 3 that comes with Jessie. I'm also not too fond of the default on for all the smart--phone centric gestures that mess up all of my window positioning if I accidentally mouse to the corner of the screen.

I use Debian 6 for an operator console for a piece of heavy moving machinery, and I will not upgrade to Deb 7 or 8 for as long as I can because my whole workflow is based on the quaintly named "classic desktop model" where screens and windows don't magically resize and change position if I sneeze. I am truing to put off as long as I can the task of having to figure out all of these "features" in GNOME 3 or KDE how to disable them so that I can use it for my operator console without fear of an accidental version of the killer poke. I'd switch to LXDE or XFCE, but they're a little too light-weight for my taste, and I don't want to switch to MATE because all the executables have been renamed and I'd lose compatibility with my legacy systems that run GNOME 2. Geez.
Re:How many of you are still using Gnome? by TheRaven64 · 2014-09-23 13:40 · Score: 4, Interesting

Listening to users isn't necessarily a good thing. Henry Ford said that if he'd asked his customers what they wanted, they'd have asked for a faster horse. This is especially true of UI design, because most people (even power users) really don't measure what they're spending time doing and get into unproductive patterns. The problem with GNOME was that they also didn't listen to usability experts. Or even vaguely competent people who had read an HCI book. They went down a path of doing things that an uninformed user and a usability expert could both agree were stupid. Apparently they've improved recently, but it cost them a lot of users.

--
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Re:How many of you are still using Gnome? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-23 13:46 · Score: 3, Informative

You don't have to drag to unlock. Press Escape or just typing your password.
Re: How many of you are still using Gnome? by corychristison · 2014-09-23 13:57 · Score: 2

I use XFCE as well.
XFCE 4.10 came out in April/2012. I'm honestly worried maybe things have stalled. I use Funtoo(/Gentoo) Linux, so I see from time to time things get updated in the various applications that make up XFCE, but I'm still worried about its future.
Re:How many of you are still using Gnome? by Chandon+Seldon · 2014-09-23 14:00 · Score: 3, Insightful

KDE 4.0 was bad, so lots of people switched to Gnome 2.
KDE 4.3 was decent, and Gnome 3 was awful, so lots of people switched to KDE.
Gnome 3.10 and KDE 4.13 are both fine. If they both keep working on polish and extension support for a while rather than trying to reinvent themselves again then everything will be peachy.

--
-- The act of censorship is always worse than whatever is being censored. Always.
Re: How many of you are still using Gnome? by CaptnZilog · 2014-09-23 14:36 · Score: 4, Insightful

I use XFCE as well.
XFCE 4.10 came out in April/2012. I'm honestly worried maybe things have stalled. I use Funtoo(/Gentoo) Linux, so I see from time to time things get updated in the various applications that make up XFCE, but I'm still worried about its future.
Just a simple question - if it works for you, unless there are some major security bugs or something, why does it matter if it gets 'updated'?
Re:How many of you are still using Gnome? by Sri+Ramkrishna · 2014-09-23 15:00 · Score: 2

Uh.. you do realize that Cinnamon uses GNOME's codebase right? It's like wishing your upstream would go away so you would what? Take over development of everything instead?
Re:How many of you are still using Gnome? by rubycodez · 2014-09-23 15:13 · Score: 2

It uses GTK+ libaries, so what? unlike GNOME it uses them for a UI that doesn't suck.
Re:How many of you are still using Gnome? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-23 15:50 · Score: 2, Informative

I don't want to switch to MATE because all the executables have been renamed and I'd lose compatibility with my legacy systems that run GNOME 2.
Okay, my advice to you: switch to MATE.
They renamed all the executables because they had to. For some reason that I don't understand, GNOME cannot have 2.x and 3.x on the same system; somehow they screwed the library versioning all to hell and it doesn't work. So the MATE developers renamed everything, so that people could install MATE and GNOME on the same system without any problems.
You can install GNOME 2.x and MATE side by side and they won't fight. Try it.
Maybe the future is Cinnamon. But I'm still running MATE. It just works, and just keeps on working. If you just want to get your work done and not fight with your DE, use MATE.
Re:How many of you are still using Gnome? by Sri+Ramkrishna · 2014-09-23 16:06 · Score: 2

Yes, but one shouldn't wish ill on an upstream project. :)
Re:How many of you are still using Gnome? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-23 16:43 · Score: 2, Informative

> I am at a complete loss as to why I should have to use a click-and-drag "swipe" gesture to unlock the screen on my workstation in the default configuration of GNOME 3 that comes with Jessie.
You don't. Just type your password and it gets unlocked automatically.
Re:How many of you are still using Gnome? by mattventura · 2014-09-23 19:10 · Score: 5, Interesting

Same, so I switched to XFCE. I'd much rather just have a nice minimal DE that doesn't get in the way. I'm not using a DE for the sake of using a DE, I'm using it to facilitate using actual applications.
Re: How many of you are still using Gnome? by paskie · 2014-09-23 20:18 · Score: 2

Because a desktop environment ties into a lot of the rest of the system infrastructure - from volume controls to disk mounting to power management - and the system infrastructure keeps moving forward. Therefore, you need to maintain the desktop environment in order for it to keep working well. A typical case is that xfce + new upower tends to suspend twice when you close the lid (i.e. when you open the notebook lid, it re-suspends right away). This is because noone updated xfce's power manager to a new upower API that was announced >6 months before it appeared in a release. (AFAIK xfce update finally happenned and is now fighting its way into Debian unstable.)
Desktop environment is not maintenance free. The rest of the infrastructure evolves (for real reasons - better hardware support, security fixes, usability, ...) and the DEs need to keep pace.

--
It's not the fall that kills you. It's the sudden stop at the end. -Douglas Adams
Re:How many of you are still using Gnome? by thegarbz · 2014-09-23 20:24 · Score: 4, Insightful

The problem with GNOME was that they also didn't listen to usability experts.

The problem is that usability experts are actually few and far between. Usability experts have been replaced with User eXperience experts and they kind of kicked off this nightmare of crap design. I like the Microsoft story of how the "Start" button came to exist. Without a requirement for usability experts to weigh in they actually beta tested many versions of windows with various designs, and each time wondered how to get users to click on the thing. Put the word "Start" on the button and suddenly everyone instinctively knew what to do.
Now we are in a world of UX design where people don't seem to care anymore what the users think but only seem to care about how their product looks like. I'm going to buck the trend and actually say I like the theme of Windows 8. Flat and trendy works for me, but the UX design is a nightmare without any of the queues that a user needs to identify how something should happen.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that maybe the UX guys are right and we're not optimally using the desktop. But if a user can't figure out how to use your desktop (see and endless stream of youtube how-to videos on Windows 8 showing people such advanced things like .... turning their computer off) then you have failed. The users absolutely need to be part of the equation.

Help me Slackware by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-23 12:10 · Score: 2, Funny

You're my only hope!

Re:Help me Slackware by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-23 12:27 · Score: 5, Funny

Much fear I sense in you...
Help you we can. Install FreeBSD we must.

Re:No big deal by Bing+Tsher+E · 2014-09-23 12:21 · Score: 2

One of the things I like a lot about NetBSD is that the 'default' GUI is the Tab Window Manager. The base install ISO for NetBSD-i386 is still only 321MB. You add what you want to using Pkgsrc. No croft, no unneeded shit.

Re:words? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-23 12:23 · Score: 2, Funny

Interesting trollbot you have there. It'd be a shame if somebody replaced its init with systemd.

Systemd integration counted as a positive thing? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-23 12:25 · Score: 3, Interesting

Why on earth would you do that?

Funny, I Left GNOME 3 Mainly Because of Systemd by SlashdotOgre · 2014-09-23 12:43 · Score: 5, Interesting

I used GNOME as my primary desktop environment for almost a decade starting with 2.4 on Fedora Core 1. I watched as many features I cared for were either hidden or removed for simplicity's sake, but I kept with it because for the most part I could restore the features with minimal hassle and I liked the overall look & feel. I even put up with early GNOME 3 as I felt 3.4 & 3.6 were progressively improving. However by 3.8 I was getting fed up of having to constantly figure out how to restore features I want, and I had absolutely no interest in running systemd just to run a damn GUI. I had enough, jumped to XFCE4 and have it customized to a very similar setup to GNOME 2 and have been very satisfied.

It takes a lot to alienate someone who has used the same software for a decade, but they've managed to it. I felt like each released "dumbed" the product down more and more and I kept thinking to myself that old saying, "If you make something idiot proof, someone will just make a better idiot". I don't know what kind of consumer they want to attract, but apparently I'm no longer it.

At least with Debian, the default desktop doesn't necessarily mean much as it's quite simple to install an alternative.

--
Sadly, PS/2 was yet another victim of USB, which doesn't care what you plug into it, the electrical slut.

Cinnamon by DivineKnight · 2014-09-23 12:48 · Score: 3, Informative

Come, join us, Cinnamon is what you want.

A special kind of stupid... by LVSlushdat · 2014-09-23 12:48 · Score: 2

Running Debian Jessie (testing) right now, and KDE is the ONLY way to go... At least the default XFCE was not too bad, but I always prefer KDE over pretty much ANY other DE, but going to that piece of shit Gnome is a special kind of stupid... The only DE worse than Gnome is Unity or Windows 8.... What with all the crap software that many distros are trying to shove down our throats (like systemd and Gnome), I'm beginning to think its back to my Linux roots, namely Slackware... Cut my teeth on that distro back in 1994... Glad its still around and hopefully not going down the shithole like everybody else in the Linux world...

--
THANK YOU, Edward Snowden!! Americans owe you a debt of gratitude (whether they know it or not..)

Re:Systemd integration counted as a positive thing by armanox · 2014-09-23 12:58 · Score: 2

You mean the people that are the reason Linux lives in the enterprise and on so many servers, and are the ones who can kill its presence there too.

--
I'm starting to think GNU is the problem with "GNU/Linux" these days.

Debian GNOME needs some attention by Bruce+Perens · 2014-09-23 13:06 · Score: 3, Interesting

After something like 20 years I finally found a system that won't run Debian unstable right now. My Panasonic Toughpad FZ-G1 magnesium tablet + iKey Jumpseat magnesium keyboard. Systemd and GDM break. Bought (for less than full price) because I am a frequent traveler and speaker and really do need something you can drop from 6 feet and pour coffee over have it keep working.

But because of this bug I have ubuntu at the moment, and am not having fun and am eager to return to Debian.

--
Bruce Perens.

Re:Debian GNOME needs some attention by viperidaenz · 2014-09-23 13:59 · Score: 3, Insightful

omg, there's a bug in an unstable release?

Re: Enlightenment by jd · 2014-09-23 13:17 · Score: 4, Funny

It's definitely one of the cleanest. It needs a rewrite, though.

--
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)

Re: Funny, I Left GNOME 3 Mainly Because of System by jd · 2014-09-23 13:31 · Score: 2, Insightful

Software that is designed correctly separates out what it does, how it does it, and how it interacts with the outside world.

Ergo, software that is correctly designed is user-agnostic. If the user thinks in a particular way, whatever that way happens to be, it is the job of the software to accommodate that. If it does not, it is not software for users, it is software that has users. Possession is everything.

Software that is correctly designed is configuration-agnostic. If the configuration file states something is enabled, then that is enabled. It is not the job of the software to say the file really means something else. If the configuration is broken, state how and why. Clearly. If the configuration is old, import and update. But don't tell me, or anyone else, what Joe Bloggs thinks would look better. I don't care. And the more other people's preferences get shoved in my face, the less I will care.

Theo clearly has the right idea - the only way to get past the morons is with an attitude of utter contempt. Bugger all else matters, apparently.

--
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)

Re:Systemd integration counted as a positive thing by ArchieBunker · 2014-09-23 13:42 · Score: 2, Insightful

Go back in time 5 years and tell everyone Linux would be using binary log files, watch the fireworks. Systemd is from the same people who brought you the sometimes working Pulseaudio system. If init scripts did suck so badly then why were they in use for decades? Why was a replacement this long in the making?

Next you guys are going to be talking about this great binary system for config files like the guys in Redmond use.

--
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard

Re:What happened to Debian? by pepa65 · 2014-09-23 13:59 · Score: 3, Insightful

I think you got that backwards. Canonical started using systemd because Debian picked it. Also, Canonical doesn't do Gnome3 shell on their main offering, so how do you see any strongarming in this decision?

Re:Systemd integration counted as a positive thing by armanox · 2014-09-23 14:32 · Score: 2

Scripts are understood, easy to search and edit, debug and maintain. Systemd adds a layer of complexity that's not wanted. Journald means extra work as well, that nobody asked for.

Execution speed? Not relevant.

--
I'm starting to think GNU is the problem with "GNU/Linux" these days.

Re:words? by ls671 · 2014-09-23 14:44 · Score: 2

It is a french expression, systemd means "système débrouillardise".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S...

--
Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.

Re:What happened to Debian? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-09-23 14:56 · Score: 2, Informative

Jeezus, Canonical didn't want to Debian to adopt systemd, they wanted to them to go with Upstart you idiot.

Re:Systemd integration counted as a positive thing by rubycodez · 2014-09-23 15:18 · Score: 2

Funny I've never had an init script "break" in 25+ years of Unix and Linux administration. Tell me does it make a snapping sound? Does it break because the summer weather made it get wet and soft? Can they be glued back together?

Re:Horses for courses by rubycodez · 2014-09-23 15:27 · Score: 3, Insightful

That is why a certain navel gazing tard with no engineering sense or real world experience, with a long and tragic history of failures and of fucking up GNU/Linux, decided the headless server realm needed a good fucking up too, and so he wrote systemd

Re:Binary logs by rubycodez · 2014-09-23 15:30 · Score: 2

Yes, I was talking about things as they are now, not with the goatfuck that is systemd. And for even more hilarity the systemd wankers claim text logging can be used, but forget that will only start working if certain other parts of systemd get going

Re:What happened to Debian? by styrotech · 2014-09-23 16:09 · Score: 5, Informative

Getting bullied by Canonical makes loads of sense, but I don't like it one bit.

You need to look into it deeper. It didn't happen that way at all.

Canonical wanted Debian to pick upstart (naturally as it was their software). Once Debian chose systemd though and with RHEL already switching away from upstart to systemd, Canonical felt that being left as the only distro still using upstart wasn't tenable any more. Staying aligned with Debian was more important than getting what they wanted.

UX researcher, weighing in: show me the studies. by splitsevin · 2014-09-23 16:10 · Score: 2

All this speculation about which environment is the most usable. Which one is best for new users because this and that.

The only way to determine which has an advantage is to conduct UX research from a completely unbiased standpoint.

/. *nix threads are not known for their unbiased takes on things.

--
The enemy of my enemy is quite possibly also my enemy. I've made a lot of enemies.

Re:Why not XFCE by dcollins117 · 2014-09-23 17:38 · Score: 3, Funny

There are also no desktop effects.

You say that like it's a bad thing. Desktop effects are the second thing I turn off in a new install, the first being those fscking bongos.

Re:Server or Workstation by Lennie · 2014-09-23 18:45 · Score: 2

Why do you insult me claiming I need to run Windows on my Linux desktop ? ;-)

I don't run Windows VMs on my desktop machine.

There are no Windows applications I need or depend on.

--
New things are always on the horizon

Re: Funny, I Left GNOME 3 Mainly Because of System by epyT-R · 2014-09-23 19:33 · Score: 3, Insightful

It's impossible to design something that is 'agnostic' to everyone as everyone thinks differently and makes different assumptions. Therefore, designers have to make certain assumptions of their own and expect users to stretch out a bit and learn them. Good designers will write reasonable documentation or build intuitive hints into their designs to facilitate this, but going too far makes it difficult to be efficient with the tool. Unfortunately, designs like gnome 3.x, metro, osx, unity, and mobile interfaces clearly show this has become a trend.

While tools that are difficult to use for no good reason aren't great, especially when the task is relatively simple, tools that make too many assumptions about complex tasks under the guise of simplicity often prevent user skill growth and understanding. The inflexibility that comes with this just pisses the experienced users off. It shouldn't take 6 clicks to do something that should take 1, nor does it make sense to remove all the functionality except that which only takes 1 click just to make it less 'confusing' to do easy things. Who is the target user for interfaces like these? bonobos?

Re:Systemd integration counted as a positive thing by Barsteward · 2014-09-23 20:06 · Score: 2

Is that still the case? here's an explanation about issues between KDE and systemd i've found "As ConsoleKit is deprecated, systemd offers its own daemon to keep track of sessions and assigned seats in a system. However, the KDE Workspaces rely on ConsoleKit to handle user switching, reboot, shutdown and a lot of their things. Removing ConsoleKit would mean that users would suffer feature loss. On the other hand, with something that’s been deprecated and no longer actively worked on, you have issues with maintenance." i took it from thjs link https://www.dennogumi.org/2012...

--
"The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)

Re:Steam will switch off Debian by Barsteward · 2014-09-24 00:00 · Score: 2

can you point to any evidence of this or did you just pull it out of your trolling ass?

--
"The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)

Re:UX researcher, weighing in: show me the studies by koinu · 2014-09-24 01:31 · Score: 2

My "studies" show that users will bitch about everything that has changed and where they need to rethink their workflows.

On the other hand, I don't think that systemd is useful, but I also don't care about what nightmares Linux gets from the administrative point of view (because I am a FreeBSD user). I also left the Gnome world after I noticed how it the software project is being handled (getting more and more unportable and dependent on Linux) and gradually found my way to Openbox and now to Xmonad where the UX is only limited by my imagination capabilities.

As you can see, UX is highly dependent on the user. The common desktop environments have a really shitty UX (from my point of view), because I cannot get them to do what I easily can do with Xmonad. Other users will get confused by Xmonad and think that it has a terrible UX (which will be mostly "true", also for you as a researcher, because you think that UX is not something that you are responsible to develop, but the desktop environment should provide it for the average dumb user out there).

Slashdot Mirror

Debian Switching Back To GNOME As the Default Desktop

60 of 403 comments (clear)