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South Australia Hits 33% Renewal Energy Target 6 Years Early

ferrisoxide.com writes: South Australia has hit its target of 33% renewable energy by 2020, 6 years earlier than expected, delivering clean power to the state through investment in wind, solar and geothermal energy — mothballing one coal-fired power station in the process. Not content to rest on their laurels, the SA government has now announced a new "stretch" target of 50% by 2025. South Australian Premier Jay Weatherill declared that despite initial upfront costs to renewable energy generators such as wind farms, the 50 per cent target will not add one extra dollar to energy prices.

169 comments

  1. Works particularly well in SA/Victoria by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The nice thing about wind plus solar in southern Australia is that peak electricity usage is on hot days in the summer. These are often windy as well as sunny.

    That said, this 33% is for South Australia (pop ~ 1.3 mil) which has a much smaller demand than Victoria (pop ~ 6 mil) with well connected grids. So excess power from SA can be readily exported to Victoria.

    As renewable engery use in Victoria increases it will likely be harder to shift excess production. The Victoria/SA market may well face the problem Germany has when wholesale electricty prices drop down to zero. We really need large scale grid storage to get a global SA/Vic production up about 30% from renewables.

    1. Re:Works particularly well in SA/Victoria by ChunderDownunder · · Score: 1

      Thanks, South Aussies!

      I'd hate that this importation would be an excuse for Napthine (or whoever's runing the place post November) to sit on their hands and do nothing. The Coalition government in Victoria slashed climate action in response to Gillard's carbon tax at the federal level.

      I would hope both sides launch policies during the state election campaign as a response to Abbott and Palmer repealing the legislation, since Direct Action is dead.

    2. Re:Works particularly well in SA/Victoria by durrr · · Score: 2

      Large scale grid storage doesn't exist in a cheap and efficient manner. That's one of the core problems with wind and solar. It's great for shaving off peak demand but after a certain point it will be investments into useless overcapacity(it's also a great way to make renewables competitive with grid prices though as grid inefficiency costs are offloaded to end users)

    3. Re:Works particularly well in SA/Victoria by fustakrakich · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Well, they could use the excess to desalinate and pump more water inland.. Just a thought..

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    4. Re:Works particularly well in SA/Victoria by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What I do not get is everyone seems totally blind to the fact that if Solar and Wind start producing excess power over that needed by regular users, some industries will capitalize on that 'worthless excess power'

      Go tell the manager of an aluminum smelter that there is such a thing as too much electricity at 1am on a Monday night.

      Everyone seems to have this idea that to store electricity for later it has to be a battery rather than consumed by industrial customers that can give two shits about what time of day cheap power is available.

    5. Re:Works particularly well in SA/Victoria by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That said, this 33% is for South Australia (pop ~ 1.3 mil) which has a much smaller demand than Victoria (pop ~ 6 mil)

      Yep yep yep hurrey!

      A territory where 1.67 person/km live and with 0.00018% of Earth population has reduced its non-renewable energy demand by 33%.

      Antarctica must be doing well also and the Moon too while at it.

    6. Re:Works particularly well in SA/Victoria by TapeCutter · · Score: 4, Informative

      Large scale grid storage doesn't exist in a cheap and efficient manner.

      That's what hydro dams are for. They already use them as "batteries" for coal plants because the demand curve of a city is not flat like the output curve of a coal plant. The buffer provided by the dam doesn't stop working just because you swap out the coal plant for a solar/wind farm.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    7. Re:Works particularly well in SA/Victoria by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      Don't Aussies have a lot of disused mines to pump air into?

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    8. Re:Works particularly well in SA/Victoria by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      If working aluminum had been more environmentally-friendly, I wonder if large-scale aluminum-air battery industry would make sense as energy storage. But my understanding is that nasty chemicals are involved. So perhaps large capacitors are a better idea whenever you actually need some stationary storage.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    9. Re:Works particularly well in SA/Victoria by durrr · · Score: 3, Informative

      Go tell the managers of Hydro Aluminium that the renewable induced grid instabilities that costs them thousands of euros in equipment damage and then some more from lost work is great for their industry.
      http://www.spiegel.de/internat...

    10. Re:Works particularly well in SA/Victoria by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

      If there is one thing Australia is not short of it's space. What they need is an inland sea for pumped storage.

      --
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    11. Re:Works particularly well in SA/Victoria by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      The nice thing about wind plus solar in southern Australia is that peak electricity usage is on hot days in the summer.

      Right, but that's true for basically everyone but China, and it's not true for them because it hasn't been so long that you were actually legally able to obtain air conditioning. They'd like to have the same pattern, because they'd like to modernize their society to look just like everyone else's. And they seem to be doing that, in fact.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    12. Re:Works particularly well in SA/Victoria by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      Those operations are already completely failure-prone, because they can't handle the least outage in any case. Semiconductor production facilities have power conditioning equipment which covers the entire plant because it's expensive when power fails, or has any other kind of problem. Sounds like these guys need the same thing.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    13. Re:Works particularly well in SA/Victoria by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Somebody forgot to multiply by 100 when calculating %... It's actually 0,019%, which is just a little bit more than both the Moon and Antarctica.

      Yep! Hurrey!

    14. Re:Works particularly well in SA/Victoria by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Lets not even talk about that fact that SA has seen overall demand drop significantly due to the failure of several large industries, with no indication they will return. So, from that perspective, the goals got a lot easier to attain. Of course political speak, by its nature, always sounds good. "will not add a dollar to energy prices", but of course, we also won't talk about the actual costs and how they are paid.

      Overall, they have been able to use primarily wind to achieve what they have. While they've spent a lot on solar as well, its still a small and somewhat irrelevant piece of the pie. It appears the Aussies have figured out that emphasis on wind makes much more sense.

    15. Re:Works particularly well in SA/Victoria by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      You can't just go and build hydro dams, there are very few places left where you could get a permit to do so. The ones that exist are being used to their fullest extent because hydro is the lowest cost form of generation, so they are not serving as backup to other renewables. Natural gas is the primary backbone to offset renewable reliability issues. And, coincidentally, very low natural gas generation costs have also been the biggest offset for higher renewable costs.

    16. Re:Works particularly well in SA/Victoria by whatever3003 · · Score: 2

      I was under the impression that SA does a huge amount of mining and makes it one of the most electricity hungry states in Australia, but I've just found this: http://www.bree.gov.au/publica... and a quick glance at the breakdown per-state shows total energy consumption not the highest, but if you weight it in proportion by population, WA (also lots of mining) and SA are the highest.

      --
      "Those who do not want to imitate anything, produce nothing." -- Salvador Dali
    17. Re:Works particularly well in SA/Victoria by itzly · · Score: 1

      If you can't handle a power fluctuation of a single millisecond, there's something wrong with the factory design. Short fluctuations like that can also happen with other power generation techniques.

    18. Re:Works particularly well in SA/Victoria by rjstanford · · Score: 1

      Its funny - being "too spread out" is often used as a reason why renewable energy wouldn't work too.

      Renewable energy is one of those areas where we could make significant progress a lot faster if half the crowd would stop sitting around coming up with reasons why it would "never work" (we've long since passed many of the impossible thresholds) and start helping to solve the problem.

      WTF is wrong with wanting a clean, perpetual (in human terms) source of power FFS?

      --
      You're special forces then? That's great! I just love your olympics!
    19. Re:Works particularly well in SA/Victoria by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Those operations are already completely failure-prone, because they can't handle the least outage in any case. Semiconductor production facilities have power conditioning equipment which covers the entire plant because it's expensive when power fails, or has any other kind of problem. Sounds like these guys need the same thing.

      Per TFA, the have added power supplies to maintain voltage when grid voltage dips. This, however, raises two issues with wind and or solar :

      1. It's an added hidden cost of power. Sure, the electricity prices may not go up but the cost of power doesn't to customers Ast THFA pointed outré, sat some point companies look to other locations without such problems.

      2. Right now, consumers and most businesses aren't seeing a problem because most appliances can handle short voltage drops. However, as the percentage of those sources increase we could see dips that damage appliances or cause consumer or business issues. Expecting them to buy power conditioning equipment isn't a solution that most politicians probably want to suggest, so the producers and or grid companies will have to solve the problem,; whereupon the costs of power will go up as it reflects the actual costs of delivering clean power.

      None of these problems are unsolvable but tend to get ignored in the debate. The regulator in Germany already punted the issue by planning "to discuss the problem with experts and associations in detail" which translated to non-politik sprache means "ignore the problem by studying it." Maybe what's needed is for voting machines to experience problems, that cost someone an election, later traced to a power fluctuation. That sort of cost gets a lot of attention from politicians.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    20. Re:Works particularly well in SA/Victoria by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      We don't raise energy prices here. We raise delivery costs. The suppliers now have to compete with other energy suppliers, but still own transmission lines, so they always supply electricity at the same low price while increasing transmission fees.

    21. Re:Works particularly well in SA/Victoria by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 2

      If you had a hydroelectric reservoir, you could use a pump to raise water from the low basin to the high basin.

    22. Re:Works particularly well in SA/Victoria by afidel · · Score: 1

      Stored solar thermal exists, it might not be as cheap as coal without coals externalities included in the retail price, but it's doable and switching over baseloads to it would cost at most a few tenths of a percent of GDP for developed nations.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    23. Re:Works particularly well in SA/Victoria by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Per TFA, the have added power supplies to maintain voltage when grid voltage dips

      Right. But this kind of event happened before solar and wind electrical generation became popular. It simply happened less frequently.

      Ultimately, power companies have plans to add more storage capacity to smooth out the dips, but they're having to wait for batteries to become available as they are reclaimed from electric vehicles. Even if they wanted to buy the batteries new, they couldn't afford to, because EV builders will pay more. There will be a period of adjustment. But this equipment pays dividends in other ways, as well. The fact that they're adding it only now doesn't mean that the entire cost is eaten by compensating for new faults; they also get the benefit of compensating for the existing faults.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    24. Re:Works particularly well in SA/Victoria by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      That's one of the core problems with wind and solar. It's great for shaving off peak demand but after a certain point it will be investments into useless overcapacity(it's also a great way to make renewables competitive with grid prices though as grid inefficiency costs are offloaded to end users)

      Wind, on land is generally powered by the sun - winds pick up during the day and die at night (generally). Solar is the same.

      And you know what? Peak power consumption is during the day as well, right when the renewables are producing the most power. (All those air conditioners have to run during the hottest parts of the day, after all). At night, when demand lessens, so does the output of solar and wind turbines.

      Solar especially is valuable because it produces the most power right when most power is consumed by the grid. Sure, at home it's fairly "pointless" as household demand is low during the day (it peaks in early evening), but overall power consumption across all consumers has peak consumption during the day.

    25. Re:Works particularly well in SA/Victoria by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The article implicitly blames the voltage drop of 1 ms on renewables, but it is not clear that it is caused by renewables at all. In fact, I would say a short-cirtcuit is more likely. Also, by any measures, the German grid is much more stable than almost every other in Europe or elsewhere. The SAIDI value (which only measures larger outages though) is more than 10 x smaller than in the US.

    26. Re:Works particularly well in SA/Victoria by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      Per TFA, the have added power supplies to maintain voltage when grid voltage dips

      Right. But this kind of event happened before solar and wind electrical generation became popular. It simply happened less frequently.

      True, but it appears to not have been an issue since companies did not take steps to deal with it or not at least to the extent of adding their own power backup.

      Ultimately, power companies have plans to add more storage capacity to smooth out the dips, but they're having to wait for batteries to become available as they are reclaimed from electric vehicles. Even if they wanted to buy the batteries new, they couldn't afford to, because EV builders will pay more. There will be a period of adjustment. But this equipment pays dividends in other ways, as well. The fact that they're adding it only now doesn't mean that the entire cost is eaten by compensating for new faults; they also get the benefit of compensating for the existing faults.

      Not really. Whatever preventative measures they took prior to these could be attributed to existing faults. Since these were taken as a result of new issues they should be attributed to those causes. That's like saying if someone buys a reader detector to that detects a new technology as well as the old ones it's costs should be attributed to police using the old and new tech even though whatever methods used to avoid tickets from the old tech worked and thus a detector would not have been bought if the new tech hadn't been introduced. How's that for a shocking car analogy?

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    27. Re:Works particularly well in SA/Victoria by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 2

      Wind, on land is generally powered by the sun - winds pick up during the day and die at night (generally). Solar is the same.

      That is nonsense. Or does the earth stop rotating at night?

      And please of you want to discuss about power an renewables get your "wording" straight. ... right when most power is consumed by the grid.
      The grid does not "consume" power, it transports power ... but yes, we get what you mean.
      Nevertheless half of your post is wrong or misleading.

      All those air conditioners have to run during the hottest parts of the day, after all True, but wrong .... erm not wrong, but misleading.
      How often do you cook at night? Use your dish washer? Your washing machine? Your coffee machine?
      Wow, surprisingly you consume most of your electric power when you are awake ... and not when you sleep. And I bet most people living in an area where thy "need" air conditioning over daytime, have the air conditioner "on" also at night.

      Ah yes, if you missed it: no, wind does not stop at night.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    28. Re:Works particularly well in SA/Victoria by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately that article is bogus.

      The voltage of a grid can not go down for a "millisecond".

      I don't know what the actual reason was that the plant had a malfunction, but "breaking" is most certainly caused by a malfunction in the plant itself.

      E.g. if there was indeed a drop in voltage, some computer ran into a "wrong decision" and shut down a "vital part" of the plant while the rest of the plant kept going on.

      Why can't there be a "drop" in voltage as short as a millisecond is easy to explain: in Europe we have 60Hz grid. That means every generator turns 60 times per second, 3600 times per minute.
      A millisecond is equivalent to 60/1000 turns, that is perhaps a centimeter, depending on how big the generator is. So: how should it be possible that a generator turns a fraction of a degree, the voltage in the grid drops, and a fraction of a degree later the voltage is back?

      The first thing that is happening if there are production/consumption problems in the grid is: the frequency changes, not the voltage.

      So and here: http://www.hydro.com/de/Deutsc...

      The company itself makes clear that the power was gone for "several milliseconds" and that the computers controlling the production "crashed".

      So they have no backup power for their computers and then make an "unexplainable fluke" responsible and claim it was solar/wind power? On what basis? Likely to get compensation from their insurance and not be held reliable for being unable to operate a computer properly, rofl.

      I don't know any bank that has no "own" backup power for their data center ... but a aluminium production plant, where not only property but also live is at risk, has none?

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    29. Re:Works particularly well in SA/Victoria by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Everyone has the same pattern for solar, besides not having air conditioning.
      I know no private home in Germany (yes, they exist) where the inhabitants have air conditioning.
      Hint: the daily activity of humans is bound to, well ... how to call it? Daylight! So regardless "how" or "what" is consuming power, solar power production always matches daily consumption.
      E.g. coffee machines rarely run at night, fridges use less power as they are not opened and the environment is "cooler", washing machines and dishwashers don't run ... you don't usually cook at night or use your micro wave etc. etc.

      In other words: even in third world countries like Bangladesh solar power scales/adapts with daytime usage.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    30. Re:Works particularly well in SA/Victoria by silas_moeckel · · Score: 1

      Nothing but people get in the way of more fission power plants. Hell would love small scale fission a simple RTG buried under my house would be lovely.

      --
      No sir I dont like it.
    31. Re:Works particularly well in SA/Victoria by sillybilly · · Score: 0

      That is amazing news!

    32. Re:Works particularly well in SA/Victoria by sillybilly · · Score: 0

      All you gotta do is store the electric temporarily in Edison nickel-iron tote batteries of 300 gals (1200L) each, then use that to run an electrolysis making iron(abundant) dust, or zinc blocks(not so abundant), things you can later recombust either for heat in the wintertime, or in a metal-air battery. Zinc stores nicely in stacks outside in the weather, but iron needs protection, such as the dust mixed up with an oil, that can be later washed off with pentane(or similar low boiler cyclic hydrocarbons for instance), or even hot water soap, but with pentane you can drop the clean iron out after like 3 washes, then distill the pentane out at low temperature to recover both it and the oil, and also dry the metal in a pot to recover the pentane. It gets a little complex compared to zinc, but iron is abundant everywhere in the world, plus it may be easier to electrowin, with less gassing. On the Wikipedia energy density page http://upload.wikimedia.org/wi... you can see that both solid iron dust and zinc slabs have good volumetric energy storage capacities, though they are very heavy. Magnesium, aluminum and silicon are better, but no low temperature straightforward process is available for their extraction as metal, unlike zinc(with plating bath additives/pickling gas suppressors) and iron have easy aqueous electrolyte processing. In particular, unlike sodium in the Castner-Kellner process, or even calcium in the Humphry Davy amalgam process, magnesium does not form a good, strongly binding amalgam with a high hydrogen overpotential, but gasses out immediately, and it's not possible to low temperature electrowin into mercury, (or safer gallium/ldead/antimony/indium/tin/etc-like molten alloys), from which then it could be stripped in a lithium ion battery solvent aprotic electrolyte, electrolyzed directly into metal form, at room temperature. However calcium is possible, sodium and potassium too, which then can be thermite reacted with magnesium things, of course losing some energy in the process, but magnesium is both light to stack, and it has good atmospheric corrosion properties, better than iron. (Sodium, calcium or potassium are not possible to store well in a stack in open weather, unless complicated coated, like in a tote, but now it becomes expensive on the totes. And they are very dangerous for children to play with by accident.) Of course aluminum forms an amalgam with mercury too, but once it's bound to oxygen in any form, including any aqueous solution, it's near impossible to reduce, maybe unless you can form a conductive hydroxide precipitate layer on the surface of mercury, chromium electrolysis style, but I don't know if that also does not gas out with hydrogen fast, like magnesium does. And thermiting calcium with aluminum oxide gives an even greater energy loss than with magnesium. In any case, long term stacked outside in a pile ways of chemical energy storage methods should be happy with 50% efficiency of input energy recoverable, unlike with pumped hydro, which has limited capacity worldwide, but can do 90+% storage efficiency.

    33. Re:Works particularly well in SA/Victoria by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      So regardless "how" or "what" is consuming power, solar power production always matches daily consumption.

      Not in the winter, when electric heat is used. And that's quite common in cities, where most people live, because gas is considered unsafe there.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    34. Re:Works particularly well in SA/Victoria by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd add that further to this, the quoted figure of 33% only applies to domestic generation, not domestic consumption.

      If you measure production as a percentage of consumption then the figure is much lower as SA imports a lot of electricity from the neighbouring state of Victoria.

      Additionally, wind generation has a demonstrated history (data freely available from the national grid controller) of NOT producing electricity when demand is at its highest and producing maximum output when demand is at its lowest. This is wreaking havoc on established base load generators.

    35. Re:Works particularly well in SA/Victoria by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Might be in your place of the world. In germany using electricity for heating is very uncommon.

      On the other hand, heat pumps use electricity to produce 'heat', pretty efficient btw.

      I was half wrong, the shape of the curve of solar power production matches the curve of demand ... obviously it does not match the exact need (certainly not as long as only a small percentage of power is produced by solar plants)

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    36. Re:Works particularly well in SA/Victoria by catprog · · Score: 1

      The market also goes to QLD,,NSW and TAS.

      SA still is getting less then zero prices now.

      --
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    37. Re:Works particularly well in SA/Victoria by macpacheco · · Score: 1

      Absolutely true (large scale grid storage isn't cheap except for pumped hydro).
      While I'm a rabid critic of solar and wind in Germany (where both don't make a whole lot of sense), Australia is an entirely different case.
      Solar... Australia latitudes go from 10S to 39S, a range that is excellent for solar.
      Wintertime hit due to lower insolation is very moderate, so solar produces at least half as much in the winter as it does in the summer.
      Plus with a largely interconnected grid Australia can use its significant longitude range to produce lots of solar on the west before sunset and power the east and produce lots of solar in the east and power the west before sunrise.
      Its shore also has lots of areas with constant moderate wind breeze, which produces wind electricity more consistently than the many wind turbines installed in the northern hemisphere that go on huge generation spikes when a front passes then die down. Same as my Brazil.
      Plus they have a ton of desert land that can easily be used for very large solar farms without taking away any agricultural production.
      Like I said, entirely different case. Kudos to Australia, showing they are doing a logical solar+wind strategy instead of doing it just as a jobs program.
      Where Australia isn't quite so great for taking in Solar and Wind is they have little hydro, which would act as a very agile load following source, with Australia having less than 8% electricity from hydro makes storing solar+wind surplus production very challenging, but as long as solar+wind generation matches consumption fairly well, solar+wind could be as much as 1/3rd of total electricity generation with any need for storage, and perhaps 50% with storage equivalent to 1hour of peak daily demand, which is utterly uneconomical today, but might be economical 10-15 years from now.

    38. Re:Works particularly well in SA/Victoria by macpacheco · · Score: 1

      Industrial users aren't your energy oversupply waste bin. They can't change their demand on an hour by hour basis significantly. What they can do is to shutdown in peak demand hours.
      However Electric Cars could be given incentives to prefer charging when there's a power surplus. That would actually makes sense. But it would take millions of EVs / Plugin hybrids to make a difference.

  2. More impressive than Americans might think by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Since this was a South Australian who made the quote, presumably the term "dollar" refers to an Australian dollars.
    I had no idea just how strong or weak the Australian dollar was. After all, if the Australian dollar was worth a million USD greenbacks, then the statement is simply saying that the bills won't rise by a million dollars. So I checked out the price of the Australian dollar to see just how pointless, or not, the statement is.
    At the time of this posting, 1 Australian Dollar's worth in American dollars is $0.89 USD.
    So since the USD is worth more than the AUD, this means the newer "target will not add" $0.89 USD's worth of cost "to energy prices."
    For Americans, the statement turns out to be even more impressive than it sounds.

    (This, of course, may be making some assumptions about the relative values of the currencies, which in reality will probably fluctuate over the next 11 years.)

  3. costs by sr180 · · Score: 4, Informative

    Thanks to our privatized system we generally pay up to 30 cents per kwh. 50 per cent of that goes to network charges and a significant amount towards wholesale and retail profits.
    Wind has been bringing down the wholesale price significantly - to the point that the coal industry has seriously kicked their political machines into gear to get renewables stomped on.

    --
    In Soviet Russia the insensitive clod is YOU!
    1. Re:costs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Since Wind power is cheaper than Coal, why do we need a RET? The Wind companies will just beat them in the market with cheaper prices.

    2. Re:costs by volmtech · · Score: 3, Informative

      If Florida adapts Australian standards my power bill triples to $600, one third of my income. I guess I could cancel my internet service, TV cable, cell phones, and insurance on my cars. Or just quit eating.

    3. Re:costs by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      And one of the reports I read is that the rise in costs have convinced many to adopt solar PV stations at home. It's quite interesting seeing the increased generation requirements offset by people not sucking from the grid. That makes it far easier to put in peaking systems and renewables rather than continuous base load.

    4. Re:costs by roger10-4 · · Score: 2

      Yeah, I live in Hawaii - we pay about $0.33/KWh...it sucks and definitely has an impact on lifestyle.

    5. Re:costs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I bet you run your aircon 24/7 in every room whether or not you are actually in your house.

      USA! USA! USA!

    6. Re:costs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just like Arizona, solar PV in much of Australia is a complete no-brainer.

        -captain obvious

    7. Re:costs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Insurance on your "cars"? Dude, there's your problem right there.

    8. Re:costs by TyFoN · · Score: 5, Interesting
      I live in Norway, we pay around $.12 including taxes and "line rent".
      The price fluctuates with rain and season, but $.12 is about as high as it gets. I've seen as low as $.05

      Most of the electricity comes from hydro plants (98.5%) and I think other renewables will have similar cost structure. High investment, very low marginal cost pr kwh.
      In Hawaii for instance I'd guess you could build some geothermal plants like in Iceland

    9. Re:costs by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 1

      Hydro and geothermal are cheap compared to other renewables in terms of cost per kWh. The cost for wind and solar is coming down a little as technology improves, but it is still very high compared to gas or coal fired plants. Hydro and geothermal also have some other important advantages over other renewables: output can be adjusted to demand, and continues day and night: you can often use these as baseload generators without having to store energy (with hydro, the lake behind the dam is the energy store). Consider yourself very lucky to live in a country where hydro can be implemented on such a large scale.

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    10. Re:costs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe try, I dunno, using less electricity? Just a thought!

    11. Re:costs by TyFoN · · Score: 1

      That's true, in the night we often turn off the hydro plants and import coal power from Germany or whatever since they cannot just turn off the plants overnight. And then we sell hydro power back in the day so the export is slightly higher than the imports.

      We often laugh about the fact that while we have a lot of electric cars, they are all coal powered.

    12. Re:costs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OK, let's see... [Cable TV] vs. [living more in harmony with nature].

      Nope... Your preferred [Cable TV]!

    13. Re:costs by Yoda222 · · Score: 1

      Insurance on your cars will not reduce your electricity bill. But reviking internet services, TV cable and cell phones will definitively reduce that cost, so yes, go for it.

    14. Re:costs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Perhaps you can do something about your house? My summer bill in a 2500 sqr-ft ranch house with pool (near Tampa) is $110, dropping to $65 in the winter (we use blown air for heating some days) for a family of four.

      Simple fixes:

      - fix air gaps around windows, sliding doors (we eventually replaced ours for hurricane protect)
      - replace exterior door seals
      - install radiant barrier in the attic (drops attic temperature by 20F in the summer)

      If you are on limit income, do it yourself, put a timer on your water heater to only come on for short periods when you need hot water.

      Better yet, install a solar hot water (domestic, not pool) and you can turn your water tank off completely for all but the coldest days).

    15. Re:costs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hydro power? That's Commie talk!

    16. Re:costs by rjstanford · · Score: 1

      The cost for wind and solar is coming down a little as technology improves, but it is still very high compared to gas or coal fired plants.

      Although it gets even cheaper by comparison when you add in the future cleanup costs that gas and coal leave for our descendants to pay - not to mention things like the fact that we're literally destroying mountains to keep up with the demand.

      --
      You're special forces then? That's great! I just love your olympics!
    17. Re:costs by Oligonicella · · Score: 1

      He said he'd have to cancel the insurance to *pay* for the energy. I do believe you misunderstood him.

    18. Re:costs by timeOday · · Score: 1

      It's not even that ridiculous of a proposition. Florida was just a swamp before air conditioning - in 1900 the entire population of the state was only 500K. Likewise phoenix was just a desert (state population, 122K). By nature, these places are hardly habitable.

    19. Re:costs by T.E.D. · · Score: 1

      The price fluctuates with rain and season, but $.12 is about as high as it gets. I've seen as low as $.05

      You got me curious, so I checked. Here in Oklahoma, my rates(PDF) are $0.0564, although it can go as high as $0.097 under extreme circumstances. This is also a private company too, which means they are profiting at this rate.

      One thing to note is that Oklahoma is an energy-rich state. We have coal, oil, natural gas, rivers, lots of sun, lots of wind, pretty much every energy resource you can imagine short of Uranium. Surprisingly (at least to me), we have some of the cleanest power in USA too though. My north-eastern part of the state has a lot of hydro power from all the dams on the rivers traversing this area, and make up a lot of the balance with natural gas rather than coal. (Yes, its still burning a fossil fuel, but Natural Gas is so much cleaner than Coal in both CO2 and other gasses it isn't funny).

    20. Re:costs by Maury+Markowitz · · Score: 1

      > Hydro and geothermal are cheap compared to other renewables in terms of cost per kWh.

      Hydro yes, geo is generally not competitive, which is why it remains relatively rare.

      > The cost for wind and solar is coming down a little as technology improves, but it is still very
      > high compared to gas or coal fired plants

      This is simply not true. Wind generation in the US currently goes in for about 5 to 6 cents/kWh, which is *very* competitive with coal even without carbon capture pricing. PV is more expensive, but only if one compares it to baseload power, if one compares it to peakers, especially NG peakers, the price is extremely competitive.

      Here's some relatively recent 3rd party numbers:

      http://gallery.mailchimp.com/ce17780900c3d223633ecfa59/files/Lazard_Levelized_Cost_of_Energy_v7.0.1.pdf

      Page 2 shows *unsubsidized* LCoE. Note that commercial PV is *significantly* cheaper than NG peakers, which is why NG+PV makes such a great combo package.

    21. Re:costs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yip, NZ fell down the same hole, privatised the electricity system, prices gone up up up ever since with some impressive blunders along the way like this one https://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/misc/mercury.txt in 1998. Every time some part of the grid melts down due to dodged maintenance the prices go up to "fix it" because they cant cut into their profits.

      I live in Washington state now, friends/family back home cant get over the fact I pay 5 to 10c/kWh and 16 cents a day for the line charge. Last I hard the line charge in NZ was as high as $2 a day in some places.

    22. Re:costs by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      The problem with Geothermal in Hawaii is that all of the good sources are on the big island "Hawaii" while the island of Oahu has roughly 5 times the population.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    23. Re:costs by Solandri · · Score: 1

      I live in Norway, we pay around $.12 including taxes and "line rent".
      The price fluctuates with rain and season, but $.12 is about as high as it gets. I've seen as low as $.05

      Most of the electricity comes from hydro plants (98.5%) and I think other renewables will have similar cost structure. High investment, very low marginal cost pr kwh.

      Unfortunately, hydro is the only renewable with a levelized (i.e. including construction) generation cost low enough to compete with coal. Here's the historical US Department of Energy data on generation costs (median cost converted to $ per kWh):

      $0.02 - hydro
      $0.04 - unscrubbed coal
      $0.05 - scrubbed coal
      $0.05 - gas, combined cycle
      $0.06 - nuclear
      $0.06 - geothermal, hydrothermal vent
      $0.06 - wind, onshore
      $0.07 - gas, combustion
      $0.08 - gasified coal
      $0.10 - wind, offshore
      $0.10 - geothermal, blind (i.e. no natural surface vent)
      .
      .
      $0.20 - solar, concentrated
      .
      .
      $0.28 - solar, PV

      Geothermal has been in the range of coal/nuclear if there's a natural hydrothermal vent. But if you have to drill it ends up costing nearly twice as much. Wind is just starting to become competitive (it was around $0.10 per kWh 7 years ago). Solar unfortunately is still 20+ years away. It's really only viable on a commercial scale in remote locations with high alternative electricity prices (e.g. Hawaii, where they burn oil shipped in from the mainland so electricity is $0.30-$0.50 per kWh). In areas with lower electricity prices, solar is pretty much a publicity stunt.

    24. Re:costs by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      As uninhabitable as Bangladesh, Afrika, Mongolia, Australia ... sorry, to lazy to count all the dozens of countries that are inhabited since millennia ...

      I guess Florida had millions of indian inhabitants before they got wiped out by plagues ...

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    25. Re:costs by AaronW · · Score: 1

      That sounds like California as well. Our electricity rates are sky high unless you're lucky enough to have municipal power. PG&E and our corrupt PUC rape us in terms of price gouging and poor maintenance.

      --
      This post is encrypted twice with ROT-13. Documenting or attempting to crack this encryption is illegal.
    26. Re:costs by geekoid · · Score: 1

      "This is also a private company too, which means they are profiting at this rate."
      maybe, maybe not. Utilities are an odd beast.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    27. Re:costs by vandamme · · Score: 1

      If only Hawai'i had sunshine, wind, hot rocks or rain.

    28. Re:costs by catprog · · Score: 1

      And if we go to the actual data at http://en.openei.org/apps/TCDB... and not a cached version we get a different view.

      --
      My Transformation Website
      Kindle Books http://www.catprog.org/rev
      Interactive CYOA http://www.catprog.org/st
    29. Re:costs by roger10-4 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, never that simple though. Wind/solar on the island obviously requires a lot of space - something there isn't much of. Plus, I think most of it is privately owned. Wind farms out in the ocean (like the ones in the UK) probably aren't an option due to the tourism impact and the desire to keep things "looking like paradise". The islands have various laws that forbid billboards, building aren't allowed to be taller than a palm tree (on Kauai), etc. Not sure that active volcanos are the most stable in terms of building power plants...

  4. Wuppee by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    A nation of 24 million that is the 4th or 5th largest coal producer in the world is saying that they can afford wind, solar and geothermal power.

    1. Re:Wuppee by ChunderDownunder · · Score: 1

      Just one state, which has a minority of the country's coal mines.

    2. Re:Wuppee by fustakrakich · · Score: 2

      I'm not sure, but the coal is probably for export. The mines will remain open regardless of domestic needs. And you really can't make money and manipulate markets with wind like you can with coal.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    3. Re:Wuppee by lkernan · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure, but the coal is probably for export.

      It is. If you look out to sea around Newcastle or along parts of the Queensland coast, all you'll see are ships everywhere waiting in a queue to load with coal for overseas.

  5. Yay SA! by beaverdownunder · · Score: 2

    I live here, it's awesome =)

    Seriously though, South Australia, while having a reputation for being a "backward" state, is actually one of (if not the) most liberal, progressive states in Australia. Adelaide has a cool startup culture too!

    1. Re:Yay SA! by WillKemp · · Score: 2

      Yeah. Anyone who thinks SA is backward should go and live in Queensland for a couple of years - then they'll know what "backward" means. You know what they say: when you cross the border from New South Wales into Queensland, you have to put your clock back an hour and thirty years.

    2. Re:Yay SA! by PenguSven · · Score: 1

      I grew up in SA.

      A trip back to Adelaide now is like a trip back in time. Comparing to queensland is like saying "Florida isn't that bad, at least we aren't in Alabama fucking our sisters".

      Let me know when I can go to a supermarket after 8pm somewhere in the Adelaide suburbs.

      --
      What is...?
    3. Re:Yay SA! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... we aren't in Alabama fucking our sisters ...

      A Queenslander here: For 28 years we had the same person leading the state: A dutch-born religious conservative and not a lot of democracy. When he ignored people demanding sex education in schools during the 1980s, (Take that USA!) he was sacked by his own party. Then the 'progressive' socialist party got power. Beer bottles started filling the parks as public drinking was allowed. They tried to introduce day-light saving so the suburbs on the border could barter with you Southerners for another 2 hours. The party completed some important projects and took Queensland forward, but the little things disappeared. Especially when the party tried to do what benefited 20% of suburbs, because they contained 80% of the population. Now we have a conservative party in power who wants to slash and burn everything.

    4. Re:Yay SA! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      haha as a QLD'er that is so true. We also have to put up with the most corrupt state premier! *sigh*

    5. Re:Yay SA! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your response was off topic, but I'll bite:

      Don't give history lessons if you don't know history. How old are you? 14?

      Joh was born in New Zealand:

      http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joh_Bjelke-Petersen

      And his parents were of Danish, not Dutch origin.

      That he lost the position of Premier had nothing to do with sex ed.

      It had a lot to do with police and government corruption (of which it appears he was not personally a part of) and a failed push for him to become PM.

      As for the Labor government that followed, I can't think of anything they achieved :). I guess they widened the road to the Gold Coast (eventually). And they built highly CO2 intensive desalination plants that are now mothballed. And they spent millions on a failed attempt to built a new dam on the Mary River, that was blocked by federal members of their own party.

      Under Joh Queensland got: It's last significant new water dams, the Gateway Motorway, new International Airports, James Cook University, Queensland Cultural Centre, Griffith University, the South East Freeway, Captain Cook and Merivale bridges, World Expo 88, 1982 Brisbane Commonwealth Games, etc, etc.

      Joh was not perfect, but he was visionary.

    6. Re:Yay SA! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I guess you've never heard of IGA. You can quite readily go grocery shopping after 8pm.

    7. Re:Yay SA! by hozozco · · Score: 1

      'Let me know when I can go to a supermarket after 8pm somewhere in the Adelaide suburbs.'

      Well Hallett Cove for starters. There is a Coles and a Drake both open to 9:00pm. So your point is? :-)

    8. Re:Yay SA! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the western suburbs, at least, most of the big ones are open until 9, including the one at Harbourtown, and I know the IGA's are open until 10. I don't know about the other suburbs, as I don't regularly go grocery shopping before I start thinking about going to bed :-)

    9. Re:Yay SA! by ChunderDownunder · · Score: 1

      Coles and Woolworths are typically open 'til midnight across Melbourne.

    10. Re:Yay SA! by WillKemp · · Score: 1

      As for the Labor government that followed, I can't think of anything they achieved :).

      They got the police to pull their heads in a bit. Queensland was a bit less safer if you were Aboriginal or a feral for a few years there.

      Under Joh Queensland got: It's last significant new water dams, the Gateway Motorway, new International Airports, James Cook University, Queensland Cultural Centre, Griffith University, the South East Freeway, Captain Cook and Merivale bridges, World Expo 88, 1982 Brisbane Commonwealth Games, etc, etc.

      Almost complete destruction of anything remotely historic or attractive in the CBD, the ugliest river bank fuckup in the known world (the riverside expressway). Oh, and a police state. Also, the Great Barrier Reef narrowly escaped turning into a collection of oil rigs.

      And the cultural centre is one of the ugliest collections of buildings in Australia. More blind than visionary.

    11. Re:Yay SA! by WillKemp · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but you'd have to live in that dismal town to take advantage of that.

  6. They need to get their shit together by GroeFaZ · · Score: 2

    Wow, 6 years ahead of expectations? Sounds a lot like how publicly traded companies set lower goals so they can over-achieve them. Germany already has over 50% renewable electric power on sunny days, while having about the same insolation as Alaska. 50% by 2025 doesn't seem awfully ambitious to me, especially in Australia. They have the sunshine hours and they have the large, unused areas. What the hell is stopping them? I can only guess: lack of political will.

    --
    The grass is always greener on the other side of the light cone.
    1. Re:They need to get their shit together by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You've got no idea how backwards we (Australia) are in renewables now that the "liberal" party gained control. All renewable funding has been killed and coal has been rewarded. Easier to google it...

    2. Re:They need to get their shit together by ChunderDownunder · · Score: 1

      The current federal government panders to polluting industries and skeptics, particularly to luddite senior citizens. A 20% renewable target nationwide is ahead of schedule, which prompted lobbyists to commision a report favouring a roll-back because it would hurt big business.

      We have a bypartisan 5% emissions reduction by 2020. Yes, 5%, which is a joke of a target if they were actually serious.

    3. Re:They need to get their shit together by Sockatume · · Score: 1

      Most of Germany's renewable energy comes from biomass and hydro, sources that Australia can't tap. The same is true of most countries with high renewable usage: they're profiting from advantageous geology or ecology. If you're going to peg your renewable hopes on solar or wind, you're going to have a bad time.

      --
      No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
    4. Re:They need to get their shit together by anchovy_chekov · · Score: 1

      OP here. Yes, the lack of political will is the main issue. We have a Federal Treasurer who openly declares wind farms an eye-sore (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-05-02/joe-hockey-wind-turbines-utterly-offensive/5425804) - maybe because open-cut mines are so much more pleasing to look at - and many State and Federal bodies heavily engaged with the coal industry.

      As a society we've kind of backed ourselves into a corner, with global coal prices slumping and China now pushing for high-quality and cleaner coal (e.g. less sulphur). As another poster mentioned, South Australia is often considered the butt of other States jokes and referred to as backward - when we actually have a long history of being progressive. It's a win for SA, but it sets the bar for other States and hopefully will help move us away from being dependent of just digging things out of the ground to get by.

    5. Re:They need to get their shit together by istartedi · · Score: 1

      Most of Germany's renewable energy comes from biomass and hydro, sources that Australia can't tap

      Agreed on the hydro, but what about eucalyptus trees? Why can't they just cut more of those things down and burn them in a controlled manner? Mind you we have the same problem in California. I figure we can't do it here because "OMG you're burning trees!" but because we don't thin the forest, I've spent the last couple months breathing trees.

      --
      For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
    6. Re:They need to get their shit together by nadaou · · Score: 1

      > If you're going to peg your renewable hopes on solar or wind,
      > you're going to have a bad time.

      Er, so you're saying Australia suffers from lack of sunshine and bushfire-loving winds?

      --
      ~.~
      I'm a peripheral visionary.
    7. Re:They need to get their shit together by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, what I take from his comment is he's saying the wind doesn't blow on demand and PV panels don't generate power at night.

    8. Re:They need to get their shit together by aralin · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Solar thermal power plants covering 2/3rd of Mojave Desert could supply the current electricity needs of the entire USA. That is area 125 miles wide and long. That's it. 10,000 times more public land in USA is devoted to fossil fuel exploration than to solar plants. Same ratio for power plant building, subsidies. If this was reversed, USA could be 100% renewable by 2025. So yes, this might seem like an easy goal to set for them, but given the political climate and the inertia forces of current energy policy and investments, it is actually quite commendable speed.

      Although, if someone actually took global warming seriously even in 2000, when the science was pretty clear, we could have been 100% renewable everywhere by now.

      --
      If programs would be read like poetry, most programmers would be Vogons.
    9. Re:They need to get their shit together by Sockatume · · Score: 1

      I'm saying that they're newer and don't scale up as conveniently as biomass, geothermal, and hydro, which are the three big success stores. That's not to say that they're uncompetitive - and they're getting more and more competitive all the time - but the nations which have huge renewable penetration right now have a big head start. You have to read South Australia's seemingly-small achievement in that context.

      --
      No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
    10. Re:They need to get their shit together by Sique · · Score: 2

      Actually, 33% of renewable energy in Germany comes from wind, about 25% from biomass, 20% from photovoltaic and 15% from hydro. So biomass and hydro. while still large, don't have the biggest share.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    11. Re:They need to get their shit together by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      Agreed on the hydro, but what about eucalyptus trees? Why can't they just cut more of those things down and burn them in a controlled manner?

      Are you suggesting a switch from coal energy to koala energy?

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    12. Re: They need to get their shit together by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Sounds great, but there is more to fixing that particular problem than math. First, if one giant plant in the desert did generate all our daytime power we would still need substantial night time power generation. Second, getting that amount of power out of a remote location isn't a simple case of putting in a few lines. Third, there are clouds even in the desert and if you literally put all your eggs in one basket a cloudy day or week is a bad thing. Finally, speaking of eggs in one basket...putting the energy generating capacity of an entire nation with over 300 million people in a small isolated area is just screaming for terrorism (homegrown or invited-in).

    13. Re:They need to get their shit together by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Germany already has over 50% renewable electric power on sunny days

      There is a big difference between peak power production from renewables and the average power they supply, averaged over sunny days *and* the rest of the time. From the citations in the first paragraph of this article, in the first half of 2014 Germany produced 30% of its power from renewables. So it's slightly behind South Australia, which (per TFA) is at 33%. In both cases, most power is from wind, not solar, so insolation doesn't matter much.

    14. Re:They need to get their shit together by Oligonicella · · Score: 1

      If the environmental movement took things seriously we would have more nuclear facilities right now. That would be even more efficient. That massive an installation of solar facilities in that location would require the building of the infrastructure to get that energy to Vermont, Alaska, California and Florida as well as massive maintenance. It's not a put it up and it's done thing. Not to mention eliminating 2/3 of the Mojave Desert. Run that one by the enviros.

    15. Re:They need to get their shit together by dabadab · · Score: 0

      Solar thermal power plants covering 2/3rd of Mojave Desert could supply the current electricity needs of the entire USA.

      No, they could not. That power plant may produce as much energy in a year as the consumption in the USA but alas, that's not enough: it has to produce the energy when it is needed - either by actually producing it on-demand (not really pausible considering that you need elecricity also in the night) or to have some energy storage system (also not really pausible on such a scale).

      --
      Real life is overrated.
    16. Re:They need to get their shit together by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 1

      If the renewables meet 100% of the peak load, it would be very disruptive to the utility companies. They generate base load over the whole day and they buy/sell electricity in the wholesale market to meet the peak load. They have more expensive gas turbine generators to handle peak load. If the renewables are able to meet 100% of the deficit between peak demand and base capacity, the wholesale price would drop to zero. It has already happened in Australia. The utilities will respond by reducing the base generation capacity. But their pricing power will be gone. Utilities make significant portion of the profit in the peak demand markets. If that lucrative market is gone, their profitability will be seriously eroded.

      --
      sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    17. Re:They need to get their shit together by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      And how do you move your Mojave Desert energy from there to Maine? Magic? Moving power 1000km already has significant losses and requires significant infrastructure.

      As I said many times before, until the world, not US, the entire Earth, has one interconnected, superconducting power grid, the idea of using solar will be niche and expensive at best. The problem will always be moving solar from places that produce it to places that need it. There is a reason why nuclear power is built near cities - it does not pollute and you are reducing line losses which can eat up very significant chunk of your production.

    18. Re:They need to get their shit together by Maury+Markowitz · · Score: 1

      How about pandas?

      http://matter2energy.wordpress.com/2012/10/26/why-fusion-will-never-happen/

    19. Re:They need to get their shit together by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Most of Germany's renewable energy comes from biomass and hydro, sources that Australia can't tap
      That is wrong. Most comes from wind, solar is second, biomass is not even third I believe and Hydro is not counted as renewables as 95% of our hydro plants are pumped storage plants. Only a few "flow river" plants, below 5% of total power production are "renewable" hydro plants.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    20. Re:They need to get their shit together by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Perfectly right.
      The same would be true if you have a 100miles long stripe with wind plants at the coast of Florida _and_ similar at the coast of California (or Oregon for that matter).
      The reason why this is not happening is clear: the coal plant owners and the nuclear plant owners would ran bankrupt. Or they had to invest themselves into such power production technologies (and write off the existing plants)
      The reason why this is not happening is purely political ... or call it nation wide corruption and bribery.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    21. Re:They need to get their shit together by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 3, Informative

      You are not able to read, are you?
      The parent wrote: Solar thermal power
      So yes: they would be able to power the whole USA exactly with the amount of power consumed.
      some energy storage system
      Surprisingly a solar thermal power plant has a storage ... molten salt usually.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    22. Re:They need to get their shit together by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Baseload is 40% of peak load (in germany, your country might be different)
      You don't know what base load means ... hint: while "demand" over the day changes, base load power fed into the grid stays exactly the same Hence the name "base load".

      This is nonsense:
      If the renewables meet 100% of the peak load ... They have more expensive gas turbine generators to handle peak load.
      If renewables produce 100% of your peak load you obviously don't need any additional power plant to ... erm ... adapt to ... erm ... peak load. (* facepalm *)

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    23. Re:They need to get their shit together by geekoid · · Score: 1

      I like nuclear, but it does have issues, even 4th Gen plants. Why go to Nuclear when we an use solar? Seems like an unneeded step.
      Sadly America is fighting 3 things right now:
      A hard to change entrenched infrastructure. First developed tech issue.
      A wider and increasing base if ignorant people.
      The idea that somehow money should be all the determines anything. This is a lot worse the it was 30-40 years ago.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    24. Re:They need to get their shit together by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Solar thermal does exactly that.
      And yes, energy storage IS plausibly on that scale if it would be needed; which it wouldn't.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    25. Re:They need to get their shit together by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If this was reversed, USA could be 100% renewable during daylight hours by 2025.

      FTFY

    26. Re:They need to get their shit together by TranquilVoid · · Score: 1

      Well wind farms are an eyesore, and tend to be more distributed than coal mines. Same with solar, I recall a posting of a group of German houses all with panels. From the comment I gathered it was meant to show how pretty it was, but to me it looked horrible. Sure, panels are shiny when new, but after ten years, when the novelty of the technology has worn off, they will be seen as industrial looking - they won't age rustically like shingles or tiles.

      Of course in Australia it would be much better to do mass solar rather than vote-buying subsidies for rooftop systems. There's certainly a lack of political will (otherwise called democracy) and we're not going to see any environmental leadership from the current government.

      I wouldn't single out SA, since WA, QLD and Tasmania are all the butt of jokes about being backward (NT and Canberra are ignored). So interestingly, the more populous NSW and Victoria are making the jokes, much like city dwellers always mock townfolk.

    27. Re:They need to get their shit together by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wish all the stupid fucking greens would take them selves off the grid and rely on their stupid fucking windmills/solar only..

      Then they might understand the engineering problems.

      As it is they want the rest of us to pay for their fucking idiocy.

      Please disconnect from the grid before making any more idiotic comments.

  7. Lignite by barv · · Score: 0

    A lot of SA coal fired plant runs on lignite (brown coal) mined from Leigh Creek in the desert and run down to Port Augusta.

    You can't get a coal that is more carbon polluting than Lignite. SA would produce less pollution from 100% anthracite (black coal) than from 50% Lignite & 50% wind

    1. Re:Lignite by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What if they worked towards using 50% anthracite instead of lignite, kept their 50% wind?

    2. Re:Lignite by barv · · Score: 1

      Lignite is like soft, claylike mud near the surface. Use giant scoops to put it straight onto the train and send it to the power station. Anthracite is deeper underground, and hard. It is very much more expensive to mine.

  8. don't really like that term by markass530 · · Score: 0

    The sun is a finite power source, not renewable.. coal on the other hand is renewable (albeit pretty slowly)

    1. Re:don't really like that term by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sadly coal stops being renewable when the sun runs out.

    2. Re:don't really like that term by Ixokai · · Score: 1

      Eh? How is it not renewable? Every day it starts anew. You don't ever run out, it never stops producing. Sometimes its production is lower and sometimes its higher, but it never runs out.

      Granted, coal is sorta technically "renewable" but only on a geological scale that renders the term pointless. We'll mine it all and run out of it all long before any more comes.

    3. Re:don't really like that term by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Coal is ultimately just condensed solar with lots crap mixed in.

    4. Re:don't really like that term by markass530 · · Score: 2

      The sun is basically a fusion reactor with a great lifespan, so no, it doesn't ever start anew because it won't ever stop until it runs out of fuel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S... (If you're curious)

    5. Re:don't really like that term by itzly · · Score: 2

      Granted, coal is sorta technically "renewable" but only on a geological scale that renders the term pointles

      Actually, most of the coal was formed during the Carboniferous period, where the state of the climate, as well as the biological evolution worked together to create the perfect environment for storing large amounts of coal. The trees at that era had evolved to produce lignin, but the bacteria were not yet evolved to break it down. Similar conditions may not happen again, so we can't even be sure that new coal will form in any useful quantities.

    6. Re:don't really like that term by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Black out the sun and good luck renewing your coal.

    7. Re:don't really like that term by bunratty · · Score: 1

      Isn't that a problem with all energy sources? Speaking more realistically, fossil fuels will run out in hundreds of years and solar will last billions. Which would you bet the future on?

      --
      What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
    8. Re:don't really like that term by Anonyme+Connard · · Score: 1

      Coal is not only slowly renewable, it is renewable thanks to the sun.

    9. Re:don't really like that term by Oligonicella · · Score: 1

      Yes we can. It won't. Useful (in this case) is in terms of human needs. Three hundred and fifty million years is not a useful span for that.

    10. Re:don't really like that term by geekoid · · Score: 1

      No, coal is not renewable.
      The conditions that create coal during the Carboniferous era no longer exist.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    11. Re:don't really like that term by markass530 · · Score: 1

      The conditions that create coal during the Carboniferous era no longer exist.

      *created coal during

      That is correct but the cool thing about eras is that no matter what there is always a brand spanking new one right around the corner.... so in a million years or so the coal that will exist (but probably won't need to be used) will have been created during the era of misinformed slashdot commenters because Coal formation is a continuing process (some of our newest coal is "just" a million years old) unless you believe these stone cold fuck nuts

      https://answersingenesis.org/b...

      in which case a few thousand years is enough to make coal

  9. They need to get their shit together by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yeah, that'd be an Abbott Government and the drones who voted them in

  10. Location, Location Location. by Bob_Who · · Score: 1

    The political accolades are deserved as well, but lets face it, southern Australia has a great deal of land and resources relative to the population and demand. I would expect higher standards from those who can meet them. I'm sure Australia will aim high in spite of their clear leadership, and their advantageous location.

  11. Meanwhile the Prime Minister is a now-show at UN by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    120 world leaders meet at the UN this week to try and figure out some sort of plan around climate change. You'd think Australia's PM would bother to show up. Probably wants to avoid the abuse from his peers for canning their working better than expected carbon tax because mining money.

    It's a fucking embarrassment.

    But at least the individual states are doing something positive.

  12. not add one extra dollar! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "...the 50 per cent target will not add one extra dollar to energy prices"

    It wouldn't want to. It looks like SA is 5c/kWh more expensive than Victoria as it is. No wonder manufacturing is shutting up shop there.

  13. Energy Bills He Means, Not Prices by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What a cheap political statement there. It's easy to keep the energy bills people receive in the mail low as you switch to renewables. Just subsidize them with "government" funds that come out of everyone's taxes. It's just shifting the energy bill over to the tax bill so that people can't pin it directly on the renewables as easily. (And we all know those dollars get spent *so* much more efficiently when they pass through government hands first!)

  14. Of course, when biomass is considered "renewable" by KonoWatakushi · · Score: 0

    When renewable advocates boast about energy production, the numbers are inevitable inflated by huge amounts of biomass, or meaningless capacity numbers which do not represent actual energy delivered. Leveling forests to burn for fuel is not environmentally friendly, and not even carbon neutral on the time scales that matter. In some cases, forests are pelletized and shipped over seas, making the carbon impact even worse than burning coal. Unfortunately, aside from hydro, it is the only renewable that is reliable, and thus forms an integral part of "renewable" plans. More typically though, coal and gas take up the slack.

    Read more about Australia specifically, or bioenergy in general. Sadly there is only one form of clean energy that is environmentally friendly and scalable, and the renewable fanatics will have nothing to do with it, instead promoting a world of poverty and mass environmental devastation. While solar and wind have their place, it would be much more effective to complement them with nuclear instead.

  15. Denmark hit 33% wind by Carewolf · · Score: 1

    See http://www.windpower.org/da/ak... (2013), or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... (28% 2011).

    Now that is renewable. Of course the rest is made of coal power to fill the energy holes both in Denmark and in Sweden that is using hydro and nuclear only, and therefore can't supply peak energy on it own.

    1. Re:Denmark hit 33% wind by ls671 · · Score: 1

      Denmark and in Sweden that is using hydro and nuclear only, and therefore can't supply peak energy on it own.

      Quebec is practically 100% hydro and supplies peak energy at will.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      --
      Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
    2. Re:Denmark hit 33% wind by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, Denmark also promised to buy wind power from the farms at a guaranteed price.
      Which means that during peak production the Danish tax payer buys the energy, which is then exported for free to Norway. Then when the wind isn't blowing, Denmark has to pay to import power from Norway, as always Norway wins.

      The coal power wouldn't had been needed at all of course, if the Danes hadn't gone batshit about the finished nuclear power plant just across the water in Sweden.

  16. Forward thinking for such a backward place by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    SA is the state which continues to conjur up all the "think of the children" laws, banning of games, censorship of things and what have you.
    I mean the place is referred to as the "city of churches" so, you know?....

    None the less good on them for doing something good, for a change.

  17. what governments can achieve by dltaylor · · Score: 1

    Sounds like there are significantly fewer hire-purchase politicians and bureaucrats (from whatever combination of energy companies and unions) in SA than in the USofA. Shows what can be done by government initiative.

  18. "Has hit?" by cirby · · Score: 2

    You mean "they predict they will hit the target in six years." They hit 31.5%, and might have hit the 33% - if you believe a government spokesman.

    This is only "locally-generated" power, by the way: they don't count the power imported from other states, and fail to mention that overall power generation in South Australia is expected to decline due to cheaper power imported from places like Victoria.

    They also won't add "one additional dollar to energy prices" by adding the many additional dollars to taxes levied by the federal government.

    1. Re:"Has hit?" by Oligonicella · · Score: 1

      Indeed. It's political talk, therefore it's all obfuscation.

  19. Re:Hyoerpower by alex67500 · · Score: 2

    Either you were drunk writing this or you're in dire need of a new keyboard...

  20. Does Jay know about Ambri? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The soon to be defunct Holdens plant at Elizabeth could become a manufacturing plant for the Ambri liquid metal battery

  21. "Renewables" need more study by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In the mad rush to implement these so-called "renewable" energy sources, governments and utilities have completely glossed over the fact that they are still taking energy from one thing and putting it into something else. There has been little or no study on the effects of taking massive amounts of energy out of the wind, which does in fact change prevailing wind patterns (it slows down the wind). Nobody has bothered to look at what the long term effects might be - pollen won't carry as far, insects may change their travel patterns, moisture transfer characteristics change, dust/sediment is deposited earlier, movement of heat changes, and so on. Of course, there is the mass killing of migratory birds that has been documented and proven, and hastily ignored.

    Same goes for geothermal. What happens when we take energy out of the ground in large amounts, or put energy into it as is the case with geothermal air cooling? In the case of shallow geothermal heat transfer systems, changing the temperature of the soil even by a few tenths of a degree can cause grass and other vegetation to germinate too early, or too late. It can also change the hibernation periods and breeding patterns of subterranean insects and other animals.

    Even hydroelectric dams have been proven to be catastrophic to both local and remote ecosystems, not to mention changing the rotational characteristics of the Earth itself.

    The long term effects of these changes could be significant or even dire.

    The solution to global climate change is not "MOAR ENERGY!" It's less. A lot less. Humanity must adjust its lifestyle to reduce its impact on the environment. Simply changing the source of energy from one environmentally-catastrophic source to another is not going to work.

    1. Re:"Renewables" need more study by afidel · · Score: 2

      I know I shouldn't feed the trolls, but total solar insolation on the lower 48 is 46,700 Quads/year, compared to that the total electricity usage of the USA at 38.2 quads/year is a rounding error, the albedo effect from heavy clouds created by El Nino or heavier than average snowfall in the winter probably has several times more effect on the strength of winds than if we were to tap 100% of our electricity needs through wind.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    2. Re:"Renewables" need more study by TwoEyedJack · · Score: 0

      Kind of like saying that 3 additional molecules of CO2 out of 100,000 molecules of air is the driving function for temperatures. Just silly.

  22. My power bill has never been higher by TheScream · · Score: 1

    As a direct result of the renewables, the cost of power in South Australia is one of the most expensive rates in the world. I commonly have power bills exceeding ~US$300 per month.

    1. Re:My power bill has never been higher by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mine is half that, try turning the damn lights off when you are not in the room.

    2. Re:My power bill has never been higher by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While a lot of people did in other posts, make sure to qualify statements like that. $300 a month if you have 40C degree weather and A/C running in a 4000 sqft house on a ranch isn't expensive by US standards. If Quebec didn't have hydro for power, heating bills in the winter would be insane as another example.

      My old converted factory condo in Boston runs me 220~ a month for 2000 sqft even with a smart thermostat and a hand tweaked schedule for heat and A/C. I wouldn't be surprised if people in Australia had higher energy requirements... so $300 wouldn't seem that high.

      Now if you're in a tiny studio without A/C, its another story.

      So which one is it in your South Australian residence? Im unfamiliar with how people live there.

    3. Re:My power bill has never been higher by geekoid · · Score: 1

      That statement is meaning less.
      We need to now how many KWs you use a month. We need to know is $300 is actually a lot. comparatively. How many dollars of the is fees and taxes?

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    4. Re:My power bill has never been higher by anchovy_chekov · · Score: 1

      OP again. US$300 is a lot, but fairly typical here in SA. We regularly hear of families in our area paying AU$1500 per quarter (around US$1300) for electricity. But then we also see families with more TVs than actual family members, reverse-cycle airconditioners running all day and other sorts of outrageous waste.

      Pricing has been seen as a means to reduce consumption in Australia. It's a valid approach, but it does hit people hard - particularly those who can't afford it - but by and large it has been effective. But it has also lead to an oversupply of electricity generation, so now the Carbon Tax has been removed it's possible we'll see a return to higher consumption. It's hard to tell if people's behaviour has changed during the period when the Carbon Tax was in force.

      As a side note, as a point of comparison, we only pay around US$150 per month for a four-person household (inc. one teenager). We don't go without - everyone has their own computer, there are multiple tablets in the house. We're just careful about leaving things on that don't need to be on.

      South Australia's climate also lends itself to better energy use. Winters are mild and because we have a very dry climate, evaporative air conditioning works really well here in Summer (and costs very little to run). We have the highest uptake of residential solar power in the country, thanks to a high number of days with sunshine. Solar panels are also mandatory on all State government buildings, including a large array on top of our Parliament House. I'm not actually from SA originally, but I'm quite proud of the place I call home. Far from being a "backwater", South Australia has been quietly leading the way for a long time.

    5. Re:My power bill has never been higher by harlequinn · · Score: 1

      The SA price is about 0.40 USD per kW/h (including taxes). That is a conservative number from the cheapest providers. It only goes up from there.

      http://www.energymadeeasy.gov....

      Compare that to the USA

      http://www.eia.gov/electricity...

      They average about 0.13 USD per kW/h.

  23. brilliant by slashmydots · · Score: 1

    This is great news. Since maintenance of systems like this cost practically nothing compared to buying oil, gas, and coal, I bet in 10 years they'll be one the richest companies with a booming economy simply because energy is practically free. Once you spend the money, you're just playing the long game and it pays off in the end. The US should seriously be dumping even more money into it.

    1. Re:brilliant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I presume your being sarcastic.

      They need fuck loads of maintenance.

      The gear boxes/bearings on the windmills aren't even proven to last any where close to what the manufacturers say they will. (makes a nice bonfire/light show when they go boom) and that's just onshore wind shit which is easy to get too, Offshore they are fucked even quicker.

      Solar panels degrade quickly too, and you had better clean the fuckers regularly.

       

  24. That will never happen here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    South Australia has hit its target of 33% renewable energy by 2020, 6 years earlier than expected

    Good job Australia!

    Unfortunately there are too many corrupt politicians for that to ever happen in the US. Many US states are currently working on outlawing (or adding excessive "taxes" to) such evil technologies as solar power because it interferes with the profits (and thus "campaign contributions") of oil, gas and coal.

    http://tech.slashdot.org/story/14/08/10/1421239/floridian-and-southern-governmental-regulations-are-unfriendly-to-solar-power
    http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/14/04/28/0347225/the-koch-brothers-attack-on-solar-energy
    http://tech.slashdot.org/story/14/04/21/207201/oklahoma-moves-to-discourage-solar-and-wind-power
    http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/13/11/22/1716216/a-war-over-solar-power-is-raging-within-the-gop
    http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/13/11/16/1422227/arizona-approves-grid-connection-fees-for-solar-rooftops - I know that Washington state and Hawaii have recently also added "connection fees" for solar power as well.

  25. We have one in upstate SC connected to the nuke by mpercy · · Score: 1

    The Oconee Nuclear station built a pumped storage facility nearby so that the nuke could be leveled, with excess power generation used to pump and peak load met by the hydro station.

    The Bad Creek Hydroelectric Station is a 1,065-megawatt pumped-storage facility located in Oconee County, eight miles north of Salem, S.C. The four-unit station began generating electricity in 1991, and is the largest hydroelectric station on the Duke Energy system. It is named for the two streams, Bad Creek and West Bad Creek, which were dammed to create the Bad Creek reservoir.

    The Bad Creek facility utilizes two reservoirs (or lakes) to generate electricity: an upper reservoir and a lower reservoir. Water stored in an upper lake is released into underground power tunnels. The water rushes down the tunnels, driving huge turbines, which are underground at the base of a dam. The spinning turbines are connected to large generators, which produce the electricity. The water then flows through draft tubes into a lower lake.

    A pumped-storage hydroelectric station uses the same water over and over again, making more efficient use of water resources. When demand for electricity is low, operators can refill the lake, as if they were “recharging” a battery. Using power from other generating stations, the generators act as electric motors spinning the huge turbines backward. This pumps water back up the power tunnels into the upper lake. Water is generally pumped back to the upper reservoir at night and on weekends.

  26. So what? by p51d007 · · Score: 0

    This would be like saying South Korea has faster internet than the USA. The population of Australia is mainly around the edges of the continent. The interior of the continent is pretty sparse. Their population, compared to other countries is less also.

  27. desalinization by Thud457 · · Score: 2

    If they have excess unused capacity, they should use it to desalinate seawater, turn Austrailailaila into a garden of eden.

    --

    the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

  28. Re:Of course, when biomass is considered "renewabl by Maury+Markowitz · · Score: 2

    > While solar and wind have their place, it would be much more effective to complement them with nuclear instead.

    And as soon as you figure out a way to reduce CAPEX by four times, it will.

    Every reactor under construction in a country where we can believe the accounting is currently running late, and thus overbudget, and the average CAPEX is around $9/W. A wind turbine goes in for just over $1. That's just the way it is, and until someone fixes that, its going to keep being that way.

  29. Re:Of course, when biomass is considered "renewabl by geekoid · · Score: 1

    Burning trees is carbon neutral. Adding trees is carbon neutral.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  30. Re:Of course, when biomass is considered "renewabl by geekoid · · Score: 1

    $9/W based on watt capacity not watts generated ever time.
    That number is often used as a scare tactic to make people thing they will pay 9$ W.
    Assuming you're build plants to produce more the 1 GW over time. Ob. if you were to shut it down after producing 1GW, it would need to cost$9 a watt.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  31. No Way! by JimSadler · · Score: 1

    I have it straight from the US government that we have the greatest nation on Earth. The foolish idea that nations such as Germany or Australia have done better at alternate energy projects is simply not possible as the US has not done it first. And the three students from Cork, Ireland developing a better method of agriculture must be a lie as we all know that the Irish are all drunks and that schools in Europe simply do not compare with the US. Suggesting that the US does not have the leading Pakistani students in our science courses is about like suggesting that the US does not lead in having the best, black, football and basketball stars. The only good things to come from elsewhere are Pizza and Chinese food. Sadly many Americans think about like the above paragraph.

  32. But but but... by Ginger+Unicorn · · Score: 1

    I wanted a Mad-Max style gasoline-fueled hellscape. It's like they're actively trying to prevent that from happening :(

    --
    (1.21 gigawatts) / (88 miles per hour) = 30 757 874 newtons
  33. More information, please. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What is the "upfront cost"? How is it paid for? This sounds like it can be distributed over time (bonds, etc), but would save enough to cover this.

  34. Re:Of course, when biomass is considered "renewabl by catprog · · Score: 1

    Which makes it about $9 to $3(wind) when you figure % of usage.

    --
    My Transformation Website
    Kindle Books http://www.catprog.org/rev
    Interactive CYOA http://www.catprog.org/st