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Test Version Windows 10 Includes Keylogger
wabrandsma writes From WinBeta: "One of the more interesting bits of data the company is collecting is text entered. Some are calling this a keylogger within the Windows 10 Technical Preview, which isn't good news. Taking a closer look at the Privacy Policy for the Windows Insider Program, it looks like Microsoft may be collecting a lot more feedback from you behind the scenes. Microsoft collects information about you, your devices, applications and networks, and your use of those devices, applications and networks. Examples of data we collect include your name, email address, preferences and interests; browsing, search and file history; phone call and SMS data; device configuration and sensor data; and application usage." This isn't the only thing Microsoft is collecting from Insider Program participants. According to the Privacy Policy, the company is collecting things like text inputted into the operating system, the details of any/all files on your system, voice input and program information.
I shall pray to my new overlord!!! How long till the goverment demands that data to protect our children from terrorists?
~^\-/^|-|^\-/^~ May the force be with me!
All your privacy are belong to us!
STASI style OS is spying on you.
It's an early test program. The entire reason that it exists is to see how people use it, whether the UI decisions make sense, and what the designers overlooked. It is not intended for normal use and it is not intended for production environments.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
The article mentions that this 'feature' will be turned off once Windows 10 reaches broad distribution. Makes perfect sense actually
First you prove that the back door you've installed in the OS operates as expected. Then you sell key logger access to your user base on a case-by-case basis to the FBI, CIA, NSA or any other agency that is shaking big wads of cash in front of your nose while holding a 'keep it all secret' and 'get out of jail free' card for good measure (see various sections of the patriot act and other anti-terrorism, save-the-children, etc. legislation that have been aggressively 'interpreted').
Thus, encryption and other defensive measures are easily rendered useless as no AV system will detect a key logger 'feature' that is part of the operating system.
More profit for MS, less security for it's users. Brilliant.
The whole intent of this kind of program is to gather data as to how real world users are using the software. What applications are they loading, what settings are they changing, where do they get hung up, do things crash, etc. Bringing people into a focus group or lab setting isn't going to give the same results.
I'm sure MS has a whole regression test suite and a formal QE process that's going to give them some idea that there aren't egregious faults with what they are shipping, but that's not going to entirely cover the semi-random ways which a real human being is going to be using the OS. If someone using the software encounters a problem, it can send a more complete picture of what was going on if it has more data.
I'd expect that this will not be shipping in the real product.
Windows 7 + the NSA.
I donno about you, but I'm not an MSDN subscriber or someone that's beta-tested Microsoft software in any official capacity, so I have no expectation to learn of this anywhere except to, "read about it in a blog."
I guess we'll wait and see, like we always do, and I'm sure that some M$ fanboys will thoroughly go through the release version when it debuts to discover all of the hidden gems that didn't get removed, and they'll give us workarounds to remove or break them. As it has just about always been all of the way back to "Windows Chicago".
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
And that just relegated it to only ever being in a virtual machine, trapped in a cage where it belongs. Sorry MS, a key logger is a few steps too far even for a preview, sure monitor the hell out of it but a privacy destroying key logger is a few steps too far. It's a shame as it does look like a nice OS even caged.
Tell me what larger corporation concerned about information control is going to accept anything close to that?
Don't install the preview version for production purposes then.
This is telemetry from the preview version. You explicitly accept the telemetry when you join the preview program.
If a larger corporation does not like that, even for testing purposes, then they can simply wait for the final (RTM) version.
Reading slashdot one-liner: (irm http://rss.slashdot.org/Slashdot/slashdot).rdf.item | fl title,desc*
Windows is a great OS. What they're whining about is what a pre-alpha test version of the software collects. Test versions always deliver far more telemetry than would a retail release, as they should. Windows 10 right now is not for regular daily use or for consumers. It's purely about evaluation and helping designers test the new OS and improve it.
Some of this stuff will probably just concern the free Technical Preview, but there's still a clear trend of Microsoft turning Windows into a datamining platform. It started with Windows 8 where they try to get the user to log into their own computer with a Microsoft account. It seems to be only getting worse.
In Windows 10 you can choose not to use a Microsoft account - just like with Windows 8.
On top op that, Windows 10 will allow corporations to federate their own AD - which means that you will get the device-sync features *without* creating a Microsoft account.
Reading slashdot one-liner: (irm http://rss.slashdot.org/Slashdot/slashdot).rdf.item | fl title,desc*
Windows is for the MS peeping toms to spy on you and everything you do.
This is all speculation based on the privacy policy. To my knowledge no one has done any research to find out exactly what data. if any besides Crash Reports, Microsoft is actually collecting.
I would have no qualms about this practice if it were completely up front in it's entirety rather than have to read about it in a blog.
This is quote from the page where you agree to the terms of the preview program (this is the top text - the first you read):
Accept the Terms of Use and Privacy Statement
This should be the most boring step. Accept the Terms of Use and Privacy Statement and we can finish up your registration.
By accepting the Terms of Use and Privacy Statement, you agree that:
* The experimental and early prerelease software and services might not be fully tested.
* You might experience crashes, security vulnerabilities, data loss, or damage to your device.
* Your detailed usage and device data will automatically go to Microsoft and our partners to improve our products and services. See the Privacy Statement for more information.
* You will receive communications about the program and related promotions. Once you’ve joined the program, to stop receiving such communications you must leave the program.
Reading slashdot one-liner: (irm http://rss.slashdot.org/Slashdot/slashdot).rdf.item | fl title,desc*
A voice of reason on Slashdot.
Brought to you by Carl's Junior.
True and standard practice. However, the extent was not specified.
Brought to you by Carl's Junior.
I don't know about you, but I don't think I could properly evaluate it if I had to avoid browsing to any website where I might need to enter a password, or unzip password-protected zip files, or, well, do anything that would involve me entering a password.
Windows is a great OS. What they're whining about is what a pre-alpha test version of the software collects. Test versions always deliver far more telemetry than would a retail release, as they should. Windows 10 right now is not for regular daily use or for consumers. It's purely about evaluation and helping designers test the new OS and improve it.
How much do you get paid to do these posts?
Be seeing you...
MS is catching up!
Well that could be because on one has a copy of Win10 as yet.
My karma is not a Chameleon.
I donno about you, but I'm not an MSDN subscriber or someone that's beta-tested Microsoft software in any official capacity, so I have no expectation to learn of this anywhere except to, "read about it in a blog."
No need for subscription. :)
A Neowin article happens to have the direct download links for the ISOs (x86-32 and x86-64) if you want to play around with W10TP in a virtual machine or a spare computer.
How much do you get paid to do these posts?
Hah, that's a classic one. :D
Microsoft needs the keylogger so when someone hacks the registry to ditch the tiles in the start menu, they know what key to lock down so no one can do that.
It should also be noted that they promise to add/remove features all the time. This doesn't necessarily mean that they will also do it.
Besides -- if there really is a need to turn on keylogging and video capture, it should be under the explicit control of the user and only for as long as the user enables it for debugging purposes.
There is. of course, the problem that if the data is there, it makes life SOOOO Much easier on a malware author who no longer needs to install a key logger.. All they need to do is transmit the pre-existing keylogger 'debug' file to their C+C site to extract a (test) user's banking and password information.
OS Software is like love: The best way to make it grow is to give it away.
Ah yes, XP, with the one-way firewall to keep the Chinese from dialing in, but does nothing to stop the system from dialing out...
What Windows OS are you using? Mine sucks.
"...the date Microsoft collects will be removed from the operating system..." which is to say, you won't have a local cache of the data that Microsoft collected that will be on their servers.
http://windows.microsoft.com/e...
For example, when you:
install the Program, we may collect information about your device and applications and use it for purposes such as determining or improving compatibility,
use voice input features like speech-to-text, we may collect voice information and use it for purposes such as improving speech processing,
open a file, we may collect information about the file, the application used to open the file, and how long it takes any use it for purposes such as improving performance, or
enter text, we may collect typed characters and use them for purposes such as improving autocomplete and spellcheck features.
systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
In a couple of months somebody will be able to disable it. Microsoft's Achilles's heel is that there are hackers out there who try to break and investigate things all the time. There is no piece of "perfect code" that can't be hacked and I'm sure there'll be a registry file posted oh github that will disable all this shit.
Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
I like how use use the word "telemetry" instead of "spying".
Yay! Let me fork more money towards Microsoft so they can better protect my privacy.
If you read TFA, you'd notice the important bit that say "could include a keylogger", unlike that shitty title states.
Or you can download the ISO, enter the key (it's all over the net), and set up an entirely fake user account.
Well, now it is here too. The key is NKJFK-GPHP7-G8C3J-P6JXR-HQRJR. Microsoft is using this key for all W10TP installations.
The ISO can be grabbed from http://preview.windows.com/ by anyone who needs it.
It's the same key - there's only one. This is handy for people who didn't bother to write it down, screw up the install, and need to re-install without going "where did I put the **** key!" It's not like Microsoft is worried that people are going to pirate something that's free. Quite the contrary - they want to get it into as many hands as possible, since the preview is also a marketing tool.
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
You know you can just remove them, right?
Plenty of people have people are already running Windows 10. Anyone can signup and download it for free: http://windows.microsoft.com/e...
I'm running it on this 2008 laptop right now. This box was previously running Windows 7 and was running slow after several years without a clean OS install. Windows 10 seems pretty snappy and is much more intuitive as a desktop OS than Windows 8.
A few features I like better than Windows 7 in my first 24 hours of usage:
*Improved task manager detail (looks like the Windows 8 version at a quick blush)
*Improved file transfer speed information (same as Windows 8)
*The start menu is back, and it's easy to add/remove items from the quick access list
Features I don't like as much:
*I can see bars of strength for my wifi connection but I haven't figured out how to easily see whether I'm connected via G, N, or AC and current Mbps settings of the connection
*The news application has potential, but is so slow starting up most people won't bother with it
Because it could be almost impossible to know.
De-compiling or tracing Windows is not a small task, especially not if we're talking kernels, signed-drivers, etc. With TPM etc. you may not even be able to investigate much of the boot process.
And monitoring packets that go back over the network - well, that's what TLS was INVENTED to make safe from even packet-level snooping.
So it's one of those things that's almost impossible to do, probably can't be done with reverse-engineering (or otherwise breaking the EULA of the software itself), and may not ever reveal the true story (i.e. what if MS put a flag onto machines they are interested in, which then return more data than they normally would?).
Did you know that Windows after XP contacts an MS-controlled server with your IP to "check" whether you're actually connected to the Internet or not? http://technet.microsoft.com/e...
Most people don't. And it's only because the knowledge is public that we really know. And how easy it would be to detect what information was being sent home by something like that if, say, rundll32.exe was talking out to an MS port with a TLS connection? Your firewall would allow it, you wouldn't be able to sniff it, and it would look like nothing more than an NCIS login which you can't block if you want Windows to think it's actually "online".
If I read that correctly, you can't install the system itself without consenting to it? That doesn't exactly help. Why not just have opt-out the default with an opt-in "allow telemetry" checkbox at the Terms of Use and Privacy Statement? That's how our software does it - simple. If a small ISV like us can make it an opt-in consent system, so can Microsoft.
Yes. It's obvious Microsoft isn't making use of all that lovely data. American companies are famous for taking less than they can legally get away with. (snicker)
I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
That is all.
"If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
in Soviet Russia old joke makes fun of you!
Mod me down, my New Earth Global Warmingist friends!
As a sidenote, Windows 10 TP comes with a feedback button right in the Start Menu. If there are any nitches in the OS, you have an opportunity to voice them to Microsoft.
If it's a preview and they're using the same key for all the installations, why bother with a fucking key in the first place?
Get free satoshi (Bitcoin) and Dogecoins
I figured as much, just based on my cursory review of the EULA. That's why I haven't even logged in to any of my accounts using the Win10 preview.
I'm not sure why they force people to post on a forum to provide feedback - include a feature right in the preview OS that lets you submit feedback (simple, like how Firefox does it).
Anyway, if I can't even enter any data without being spied on, there's not much I can do in the way of providing real usage scenarios. And since I'm not even being paid to evaluate Win10, then really it's a lose or don't win situation.
Tell me what larger corporation concerned about information control is going to accept anything close to that?
Why did this get modded down? DLP is a multi-billion dollar affair.. While you may have different opinion it is fair to reason corporations will not be letting employees screw with preview for fears of data leakage.
This is a huge vulnerability. Microsoft's claim that the code "turns off" after the test period has to be viewed with scepticism. If they can turn it off, they can turn it back on. Or someone else can.
This is telling us that Windows 10 is totally unsuitable for any business with security requirements. Lawyers, banks, and medical service providers probably can't use it and be compliant with the regulations in their industry.
Why would you want to use a testing version, if you're not willing to participate in the testing?
Conversely, why would any company want you to have access to a test version if you're not willing to participate in the testing?
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
The whole intent of this kind of program is to gather data as to how real world users are using the software. What applications are they loading, what settings are they changing, where do they get hung up, do things crash, etc. Bringing people into a focus group or lab setting isn't going to give the same results.
Why not ask?
This is TEST software.
I run test software all the time. Not a single one of them sends back all my keystrokes. Stop making asinine excuses for shitty behavior.
Why would you use a pre-alpha release of ANY os on your main computer? Or you can download the ISO, enter the key (it's all over the net), and set up an entirely fake user account. It's not like Microsoft has the same "real names" policy as facebook.
Because I don't bother having many computers? If the alpha breaks, just reinstall the older better version. I still don't want my passwords logged though. Why shouldn't I test a new OS by logging in to facebook or whatever?
An alpha or test version is allowed to crash or fail in a myriad of ways. It should still not come with spyware or backdoors.
Write, compile and distribute code which bypasses integral security features in the software. What could go wrong?
Mod down people who tell people how to mod in their sigs
"Great"? You must not know any other OSes. It is a mediocre thing that took several decades longer to reach what others have had a long, long time.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
like MacOS X 10.9 was free.
In order to do that, you become the product they sell to other companies by logging everything you do.
This is really no different than what Dotcom companies do. Collect info on you when you use their website and then sell it to the highest bidders. It keeps their website free and targets you with ads and spam.
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
I tried this with Virtual Box. You need virtualization and my CPU does not support it. So I can't tell how well it works.
I bought my CPU from Newegg and they neglected to tell me it doesn't support virtualization. I cannot afford a new one until December.
I refuse to run Windows 10 Preview on my main PC bare metal, I wanted to use a virtual machine.
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
We complain about Google's data collection for demographics, but Microsoft is taking the next step: a version of Windows that can track your bank balances and most private fetishes. Profit!
Neither does Windows 10. There is no key logger as you describe it. There is a disclaimer that they may send back *text*. The TFA is deliberately trying to stir a controversy by claiming that "some call that a key logger".
Text of privacy policy itself trumps masturbating about what it does or does not say.
"enter text, we may collect typed characters and use them for purposes such as improving autocomplete and spellcheck features.."
No, it will not send your passwords. Stop making asinine accusations based on mere speculation, deliberate misrepresentation and conjecture
If it collects text as it clearly grants itself that right and you type a password what is the basis for your assumption? How could Windows even know whether text entered is a password or otherwise protected sensitive/protected information? Does Windows 10 preview incorporate some manner of AI algorithm for making such determinations? If so there is nothing about it on their website.
I'll just stick witht Win 7 thankyou
If it's a preview and they're using the same key for all the installations, why bother with a fucking key in the first place?
One thing that comes to mind is - perhaps they want to be sure their key logger is functioning properly. Having the user voluntarily type in a known string would do that.
#DeleteChrome
Or you can download the ISO, enter the key (it's all over the net), and set up an entirely fake user account. It's not like Microsoft has the same "real names" policy as facebook.
And you think just using some fake username will prevent Microsoft from knowing who you are? Sounds a bit naive, unless you plan to do utterly nothing on that computer. They won't even need a key-logger for that.
If you're that worried, then don't use it. But you shouldn't be using it for day-to-day use anyway - this is a preview for business and developers, not end users.
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
Watch out! Installing this version of Windows disables the recovery partition.
Does Windows 10 preview incorporate some manner of AI algorithm for making such determinations?
I could get in big trouble for this, they made me sign an NDA but here's the pseudo-code:
function gatherTextData(field) {
if (field.type == "password") {
return ""
}
else {
return field.value
}
}
I think they've got a patent pending, it's pretty complicated stuff.
Celebrity worship is a poor substitute for Deity worship and costs more to boot.
I'm sure it's all right there, in ALL CAPS, plain as day in the 40 Page EULA.
No, I think the retail release should collect at least as much information, and this should be clearly advertised to users. Let's see just how much BS consumers are willing to put up with.
The purpose of testing is to collect data about the system itself and how it operates in end user environments; this is collecting information about the end users themselves rather than just the machine.
I don't know how you even begin to build a machine or a system that responds properly to its users without studying its users "in the wild."
If it's a preview and they're using the same key for all the installations, why bother with a fucking key in the first place?
I'm sure the software phones home occasionally to validate the key. Once they reach commercial release (or maybe even the next major stage of development), they can revoke the key so folks can't just use this alpha release as a free copy of Windows.
The TLS problem can be fixed with a custom CA and something like sslsniff and a reliable (non-windows) machine to do the mitm.
Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion. -- Spazmania (174582)
who said they don't hardcode IP addresses? they already own VERY FUCKING GODDAMN LARGE BLOCKS of IPv4 and IPv6
Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion. -- Spazmania (174582)
or even simpler, google the cpu model number, there is always a link in the first page starting with 'ark.intel.com', READ IT.
Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion. -- Spazmania (174582)
Because it's explicitly a "technical preview" or "beta" or "pre-beta invite only" or "not intended for production" system. I've participated in numerous betas for other products like MMORPG games, and I always expected I was being watched and monitored. Not for evil reasons, but more for usability or analysis. I signed up to be in the beta, was accepted, so I'm seeking out this kind of experience.
I can't imagine that other vendors aren't collecting information in similar manner. Why send out a beta if it's not going to give you useful data back before you release the production version?
I have received a couple of prompts from Microsoft feedback after trying a feature or App. So I know they are monitoring what you are doing with Windows 10. But if you are testing it. You should be willing to give and take as you are a part of testing. If this was in a final product like Google sending crash statistics. Then you could argue privacy issues. But Google gives you a option to send statistics or not. Obviously if you feel Microsoft is over stepping with Win 10 then simply uninstall it.
Assuming that Microsoft allows any CA to sign their internal certs....
I'll just install it on a computer with a BIOS that isn't Y2K compliant. My free copy of Windows 10 will last 86 years!
Get free satoshi (Bitcoin) and Dogecoins
You don't need to actually know the content of the packets - just the destination. "I've got NO additional software installed, most services turned off, and yet every x minutes my computer contacts aa.bb.cc.dd ... anyone else notice this behavior?" would be enough to get people to start sleuthing.
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
I was not planning on using it, I just state that your name is just a detail within data-mining. Does not matter if this is Windows 10 or another release, so not using it is actually not really an option.
... five stories about Win10 in 6 days.
Slashdot turned into just another Microsoft-shilling site so gradually that I hardly noticed. Now it's too late...
What part of "a well regulated militia" do you not understand?
I could get in big trouble for this, they made me sign an NDA but here's the pseudo-code:
function gatherTextData(field) {
if (field.type == "password") {
return ""
I think they've got a patent pending, it's pretty complicated stuff.
Then I would say we all have quite a lot to worry about. One small example many of us SSH into systems all day long and our passwords are not protected by your pseudo code there is no UI element explicitly marked password.
Anyway since your an insider with Microsoft you might want to have your team communicate algorithms and limits associated with collection activity clearly.
As it stands the only information publically available described in the privacy policy states:
"enter text, we may collect typed characters " it does not provide any qualifying limits of any kind on the *collection* activity although it does provide some qualification on *use* "and use them for purposes such as improving autocomplete and spellcheck features"
"Great"? You must not know any other OSes. It is a mediocre thing that took several decades longer to reach what others have had a long, long time.
Depends on what you define as "great", for almost all people the value of the operating system is in its ability to run their applications, not the underlying technical details, so for desktop users Windows likely ranks first, followed by OS X with desktop Linux a distant third. That's why the usage statistics look the way they do. Then if you were to look at smartphones you'd likely have iOS and Android pretty much tied for first with Windows and Blackberry a fair way behind.
You don't need to actually know the content of the packets - just the destination.
All they need to do is send the data through Windows Update. They won't be able to hide much data through that channel, but it's still available. They can send the keys to all your other data through that means. Perhaps they'll use HTTP 2.0 with Windows Update in order to make it easier to hide such traffic.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Why would you use a pre-alpha release of ANY os on your main computer?
So that you can do testing on the computer on which it will actually run. Normally you'd dual-boot the testing OS.
Or you can download the ISO, enter the key (it's all over the net), and set up an entirely fake user account.
But I can't log into any websites (etc.) while I'm using it, because Microsoft gets my keystrokes. So I can only perform superficial testing of that kind. I can't log into my actual network for the same reason.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Quite the contrary - they want to get it into as many hands as possible, since the preview is also a marketing tool.
Yes, but you can be feel pretty confident the release will probably timebomb on a certain date and not be usable or upgradable to the official release without a clean install; or at least, that has been the case with previous technical previews.
Well, yes. And many people are satisfied with the utter trash that MS Office is, because they do not know any better. And as soon as they have made that mistake, MS Windows is the only way they can go and they can (and are) fed utter crap and do not notice.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
It just isn't fair... I'm sitting here typing this post on my Linux desktop, with the keylogger feature. When will Linux learn that we want to be spied on and desperately need a fucked up user interface?
Ubuntu search has your back.
well it didn't even ask for one when I installed it.
Well, yes. And many people are satisfied with the utter trash that MS Office is, because they do not know any better. And as soon as they have made that mistake, MS Windows is the only way they can go and they can (and are) fed utter crap and do not notice.
No, Libre/Open Office and Google Apps can open MS Office documents and MS Office apps can write out to various other formats, you may come across the odd formatting bug here and there or have to re-index your ToC and none of that is a big deal nor is that keeping anybody using Windows.
Because it's explicitly a "technical preview" or "beta" or "pre-beta invite only" or "not intended for production" system.
If you don't have users doing what they normally do value of test is degraded. I get why MS throws those words around to set expectations and manage risk yet this does not change the fact they need users to be users for the public programs to be successful. Only finding out later your "production" software does not work on Windows 10 helps nobody.
Still a little foggy on the relationship to my simple question "why not ask?" and answer cuz its technical preview... I don't see the connection.. I don't understand why status alpha/beta/preview/whatever is related to asking users what kind of feedback they feel comfortable providing.
I've participated in numerous betas for other products like MMORPG games, and I always expected I was being watched and monitored.
A game is not an operating system it may not be prudent to lump all software into the same category.
For example suppose Tor network were to release a preview of next-gen Tor client with similar "telemetry" features which "enter text, we may collect typed characters" ... no Tor user would accept those terms even though it may be just fine for a video game.
The operating system is the foundation upon which all other computing tasks are performed.. This scale of data leakage to include all entered text significantly limits acceptable uses and by extension usefulness of public testing.
I can't imagine that other vendors aren't collecting information in similar manner.
Seriously other people collect "typed characters" without qualification and no ability to stop it? This frankly seems absurd and out of line with industry practices. Are you or anyone able to name names in this regard? Who has done this in the past?
Why send out a beta if it's not going to give you useful data back before you release the production version?
The question presupposes collecting typed characters is necessary to provide useful feedback.
Of course the preview is time-limited. So what? It's like crack - the first hit is free. Then, when the "product" (crack or the time-bombed preview" is withdrawn, the customer comes to YOU (there's a Soviet Microsoft joke there somewhere, but I leave that as an exercise for the readers :-)
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
As it stands the only information publically available described in the privacy policy states:
"enter text, we may collect typed characters "
So what's your issue? It seems pretty clear.
So what's your issue? It seems pretty clear.
The fact this is an unacceptable privacy violation is crystal clear.
The fact this is an unacceptable privacy violation is crystal clear.
It tells you in no uncertain terms that you do not have privacy when using it, that is not a "privacy violation" by any definition of the term. Perhaps you need to define what you think "privacy violation" means because you don't seem to understand the term.
It tells you in no uncertain terms that you do not have privacy when using it, that is not a "privacy violation" by any definition of the term. Perhaps you need to define what you think "privacy violation" means because you don't seem to understand the term.
Saying your going to breach my privacy does not change the fact you are doing it nor does it legitimize unacceptable behavior.
Now you're using the term "unacceptable behavior" to avoid the question, try again and define what you think "privacy violation" means.
On the other hand... seeing as Windows is reportedly moving away from a major release model.....
Perhaps in the near future they will announce a Windows 365 subscription. For say $15 a month, you get an Operating system, and some basic productivity applications such as Notepad, Calculator, Wordpad, and Microsoft Word.
For $5 extra a month, you get Windows 365 PLUS edition which might include Outlook and Powerpoint.
Next for another $10 a month.... the above plus Publisher and Visio
Next for an added $15 a month.... the above plus MS Access.
Finally, for $40 more a month.... Visual Studio and basic developer tools.
Who's foolish enough to install a time-limited technical preview as their main OS? I put it in a VM.
That simply won't work. Aside from running old versions of SimCity, I don't really *need* Windows (and I can always run SimCity in an emulator or a virtual machine running my old copy of Win9x or WinXP).
It also won't pass muster with OEMs, who will have to explain to customers that while they're buying a computer, they have to pay a monthly fee for the OS. They'll just sell androidbooks instead.
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
Now you're using the term "unacceptable behavior" to avoid the question, try again and define what you think "privacy violation" means.
No interest in playing subjective word games.
Spyware is still spyware even if the vendor clearly and unambiguously articulates all the ways their software spies on you.
I refuse to define privacy as something that ebbs and flows from a particular EULA. If your software spies on everything I do then it invades my privacy... it violates my privacy... plain and simple I don't give a shit if it asserts that right or spouts legal-ease to attempt to legitimize fundamentally illegitimate behavior.
You are welcome to think whatever you want. You might think because a company is up front about what they do then they get a pass or their actions become legitimate... You might think well since you get a choice to install or pass it concurrently is not a privacy violation when you knowingly go ahead. You are free and welcome to think in these terms. I refuse to do so.
I've uninstalled dozens of spywares and traffic redirect malwares from systems of friends and relatives uneventfully from add-remove programs with no magic. None of them had any clue... and the malware all seems to be leveraging this same bullshit to avoid legal entanglement. If the victim had read text enough while installing they would have been informed... but the business model depends on ignorance... Apple and most all vendors do this same shit with their million page EULA...nobody reads the fine print ... fine print should not be a dumping ground to legitimize fundamentally indefensible behavior.
This is not something I will ever find legitimate no matter what word games are played or how loudly and proudly a vendor screams that their software is spyware.
No interest in playing subjective word games.
It's not a word game, it is very simple: your argument hinges on the use of a term (well actually you add a new synonym with every post to avoid the question) so define it. How does one avoid a "privacy violation" or "unacceptable behavior" or your newly added "fundamentally indefensible behavior" when you cannot define what they are? You clearly feel very strongly about something but you can't seem to articulate what that is.
I don't know about you, but I don't think I could properly evaluate it if I had to avoid browsing to any website where I might need to enter a password, or unzip password-protected zip files, or, well, do anything that would involve me entering a password.
Why would you use a pre-alpha release of ANY os on your main computer? Or you can download the ISO, enter the key (it's all over the net), and set up an entirely fake user account. It's not like Microsoft has the same "real names" policy as facebook.
Somehow I suspect that pirating something that's being exposed for how much it phones home might not be the smartest idea in the world.
It also won't pass muster with OEMs, who will have to explain to customers that while they're buying a computer, they have to pay a monthly fee for the OS.
First 12 months Windows Basic subscription included.
"Starter" subscription / Windows "Free" edition - free for life ---- limit of two application Windows, Internet Explorer included, and Metro App Store, no ability to install 3rd party classical desktop software.
It's not "pirating" - the preview is open for anyone to download directly from Microsoft's servers. Sheesh. There is only one key for the whole world - and people who need to do a re-install might not be able to find the scrap of paper they wrote it on.
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
Nobody would buy such a computer. They already tried to float that boat, and it sank.
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
I was getting really tired of going to those dodgy websites to get a keylogger installed on my machines.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
It's not a word game, it is very simple: your argument hinges on the use of a term (well actually you add a new synonym with every post to avoid the question) so define it. How does one avoid a "privacy violation" or "unacceptable behavior" or your newly added "fundamentally indefensible behavior" when you cannot define what they are?
Obviously everyone has different understandings of what these things represent as they are subjective terms.
Privacy for me stems from social contract / basic human need to be left alone. I don't want people judging me, watching me, acting against me, spying on me..etc. It creeps me out and provides unnecessary risk exposure in a number of contexts from vendor using information to maximally leverage their positions, LEA/third party doctrine fishing expeditions, hackers, peeping toms, avoidance of endless sea of people who harass with scams, junk snail mail, telephone calls, emails...etc.
Software that unnecessarily calls home when not necessary to carry out requested function or otherwise uploads information about me, my system or use of the software without explicitly asking first I consider to be violating my privacy.
These days most everyone seems to understand what privacy means as their privacy policies are quite adept at calling out all the ways they violate your privacy as they sell your data to the highest bidder.
More than anything Microsoft is selling trust and integrity without which they could not exist. I hope they reconsider the keylogger and explicit notification. If you ask people nicely to participate they will....there is nothing productive to be gained with asserting the right to do this kind of crap even if only a free beta... just fosters unnecessary bad press and negative opinions.
So I can test that the software I need to use works on the new OS before committing to paying for multiple copies.
Why would you be doing that with a tech preview that they explicitly state is subject to change significantly before release?
How many of you realize that many websites are now logging your keystrokes as you type in any input box?
The future is coming and you will not like it.
Umm, no shit sherlock?
I suspect that people hwo are entering text in that manner pretty much expect the entered text to show up somewhere.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
I see many posts worry about "what if the logger is still in the RTM version" and "what if they turn it back on".
Well, what is to stop Microsoft from burying a keylogger and/or root kits in any of their numerous security patches for Windows 7, 8, MS Office or whatever?
And if they has the moral turpitude to install keylogging and grab your passwords in Windows 10, why would you think they have not already done it?
Who's foolish enough to install a time-limited technical preview as their main OS? I put it in a VM.
Probably th esame group of people who use Windows at all.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
But I can't log into any websites (etc.) while I'm using it, because Microsoft gets my keystrokes. So I can only perform superficial testing of that kind. I can't log into my actual network for the same reason.
Microsoft ignores all feedback anyway. Witness VIsta, and W8.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
It's not "pirating" - the preview is open for anyone to download directly from Microsoft's servers. Sheesh. There is only one key for the whole world - and people who need to do a re-install might not be able to find the scrap of paper they wrote it on.
So tell me. To what extent, to what value is a testing version that you cannot test a lot of things on?
Would you take a test drive in a car that you couldn't use the brakes on?
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Yes, but you can be feel pretty confident the release will probably timebomb on a certain date
No doubt. I've seen the results of Windows time bombing.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Windows is a great OS. What they're whining about is what a pre-alpha test version of the software collects. Test versions always deliver far more telemetry than would a retail release, as they should. Windows 10 right now is not for regular daily use or for consumers. It's purely about evaluation and helping designers test the new OS and improve it.
How much do you get paid to do these posts?
I think you scared her away.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Software that unnecessarily calls home when not necessary to carry out requested function or otherwise uploads information about me, my system or use of the software without explicitly asking first I consider to be violating my privacy.
They explicitly tell you all of this in no uncertain terms before you can even download the software. If you feel that would be "violating your privacy" then you wouldn't have signed up for it.
Privacy for me stems from social contract / basic human need to be left alone.
So why would you sign up for this program then?
I hope they reconsider the keylogger and explicit notification. If you ask people nicely to participate they will....
You can't even get the software without applying to participate in the program and the process of signing up is clogged with warnings that they collect information and links to a privacy policy that states quite plainly and clearly that they are broadly collecting data during your participation in the program.
Nobody would buy such a computer. They already tried to float that boat, and it sank.
I think they will try it again with some version of the Surface Pro. Trust me, MS is full-steam-ahead these days with "Software As A Service".
Nobody would buy such a computer. They already tried to float that boat, and it sank.
I think Microsoft is about ready to announce Office 365 a complete success and possibly on the verge of discontinuing the boxed product in a few years ----- I'm sure, they will be trying really hard to find a way of making the model work for Windows as well.
Even if it turns out that they'll take a sneakier door, where your FPP purchase or OEM purchase will include 1, 2, or 3 years of updates, and then you need to pay, or what.
Trust Microsoft. No gpedit is not Open Source but believe me it doesn't have a backdoor.
You are already deeply infected. You are requiring MS Office compatibility! Or did you not even notice that? The failure of the users was when they started to use MS Office, not now that they do not have a choice left, due to their own stupidity.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
For variable values of "runs".
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Take that, strawman!
Umm, no. You might call it a bad analogy. Strawman? Not in this universe.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
They explicitly tell you all of this in no uncertain terms before you can even download the software. If you feel that would be "violating your privacy" then you wouldn't have signed up for it.
So why would you sign up for this program then?
As long as key logging cannot be turned off I would not use Windows 10 preview on a train nor plane. I would not use Windows 10 in a house or with a mouse. I would not use Windows 10 anywhere.
You can't even get the software without applying to participate in the program and the process of signing up is clogged with warnings that they collect information and links to a privacy policy that states quite plainly and clearly that they are broadly collecting data during your participation in the program.
I consider keylogging to be way over the top and will continue to call out and speak against vendor bullshit as I see fit.
Best of luck to you in your continued defense of Microsoft.
shhhhhh, don't teach them stuff
Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion. -- Spazmania (174582)
Spying is done secretively; this is no secret and Microsoft makes no attempts to hide this.
Windows Technical Preview isn't available
Thank you for your interest in updating to Windows Technical Preview. Unfortunately, you can't install the preview on your operating system.
Get info about installing the preview on another device.
I can't upgrade to the newest Windows? Linux is a piece of shit. I want my money back!
I agree while Windows Starter Edition was a massive fail Office 365 is very profitable for them and it works for users like me where I can spend £75 (at time of writing) and get everything I want from office for a year for 5 PC's or I can spend £650 (£130 * 5) for one I can keep and then upgrade next year to office 2015.
Even if its every 3 years I still save money. the only chance I have to loose money is if there's no office for 8 years!
If they can get something similar for windows I'd be interested.
The main problem with Windows Starter Edition was when you wanted to upgrade you had to reinstall since the in place upgrade\update virtually never works.
No doubt. I've seen the results of Windows time bombing.
Aiee! Kind of nasty.... oops... did I forget to mention, Windows installations sometimes tends to "time bomb" on the full release version as well; it just happens differently in a less predictable way; usually accompanied with gradually decreasing performance over time, until eventually some driver upgrade from Windows update breaks things, and there's a blue screen every day.
It's closed source software. You'll never really know.....
Only boring people are ever bored.
How do you think Ctrl-Alt-Del works when Your Program has focus? Uh the O/S is monitoring every keystroke, DUH
Murphy was an optimist
From Microsoft:
"We use a variety of security technologies and procedures to help protect your personal information from unauthorized access, use or disclosure. For example, all data sent from the Windows 10 Technical Preview to Microsoft is encrypted in transit and we store the personal information you provide on computer systems that have limited access and are in controlled facilities."
In other words: "We transmit the data using SSH and store it in a datacentre."
You wouldn't do that on your main machine, though. It would be on a machine dedicated to that purpose.
How about using the W10 release as a VM on my main computer? (Actually, I've got a spare computer around I could install it on, if I really wanted.) Once doing so, as an alpha test, I'd want to do stuff on the computer and see what broke. However, there's a lot I do on my computer that I'd like to keep private.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
I could put it on my spare computer, and blow it away and reinstall Linux Mint when I was through with it. No biggie.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
I need MS Office compatibility because so many other people use MS Office. I have to submit a MS Office document for a writing class I'm taking. I get MS Office documents for all sorts of reasons. Fortunately, I haven't had any problems with using LibreOffice instead, since I really don't want to pay MS for an office package.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
Not the same thing. Apple makes the bulk of its money on hardware sales. If they give you an OS update free, they're making it more likely that you'll buy another Mac. Microsoft makes very little on hardware sales, and it's not obvious how giving away an OS profits them in any other way. I'm not saying you should trust Apple, but you can make good guesses about a company by looking at what makes it the most money.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
As long as key logging cannot be turned off I would not use Windows 10 preview
So what are you complaining about? Is it that you want to use it? I can't see why anybody would use this except if they wanted to give feedback, it's not stable to use as a main OS and it's subject to change so useless for software and hardware testing.
Best of luck to you in your continued defense of Microsoft.
It isn't a defense of Microsoft, it's a defense of being able to have a program such as this - purely an opt-in feedback program - that is open and clear about its intention and not have to idiot-proof it for people like you. If you don't want to partake in such a program then don't, I don't want to either so I won't but I'm not going to go crying about its existence.
Now if this were the final software or even a beta for software and hardware testing then I would absolutely agree with you, but it just isn't.
Why wouldn't you be able to test things on it? Games, stand-alone applications, development environments. Computing is *still* more than the Internet. If you're really paranoid, just disconnect the network cable.
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
So what are you complaining about? Is it that you want to use it? I can't see why anybody
I care about other people who will use it and have all of their keystrokes collected. I care about everyone who is being used and abused by vendor bullshit and the damage caused by breathtaking technology failures.
would use this except if they wanted to give feedback, it's not stable to use as a main OS and it's subject to change so useless for software and hardware testing.
I have no idea how stable it is and none of us know the degree to which future changes would invalidate current software testing results.
People making "useless" assertions have no data they are just hand waving. Quoting standard alpha/subject to change disclaimers is not a useful data point... it is just wild speculation.
It isn't a defense of Microsoft, it's a defense of
Seems like one to me.
being able to have a program such as this - purely an opt-in feedback program - that is open
As it stands if you want to try Windows 10 preview you can't even "opt-out" of keylogging forget about misleading "opt-in" BS..
and clear about its intention and not have to idiot-proof it for people like you.
Only idiots care about everything they type being uploaded to Microsoft.
I care about other people who will use it and have all of their keystrokes collected.
But they don't care, they wouldn't be using it if they didn't want this stuff sent to Microsoft for feedback, that is the purpose of this program yet you're are so angry at Microsoft on behalf of people who do not share your view that you can't even understand what this is all about. You clearly just want to be angry, that's sad.
I have no idea how stable it is and none of us know the degree to which future changes would invalidate current software testing results.
And? This is not a beta, how hard is it for you to understand that?
Seems like one to me.
Yes when you continually fail at reading comprehension that will happen.
As it stands if you want to try Windows 10 preview you can't even "opt-out" of keylogging forget about misleading "opt-in" BS..
So don't try it then, it is offered as is and you don't want it so don't use it.
Only idiots care about everything they type being uploaded to Microsoft.
No, only idiots care about that yet still install it despite being told quite clearly that the intention of this specific program is to do just that. Yes, those people are idiots.
Reactions like that are why nothing works when your computer's time is 5 minutes off from server time. When your computer reports an incorrect time, you'll be shut down anyway.
Learn to love Alaska
I think this version is designed to survey users Perhaps Microsoft will offer immediate release 11.