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No More Lee-Enfield: Canada's Rangers To Get a Tech Upgrade

ControlsGeek writes The Lee-Enfield .303 rifle is being phased out for use by the Canadian Rangers, a Northern aboriginal branch of the Armed Forces. The rifle has been in service with the Canadian military for 100 years and is still being used by the Rangers for its unfailing reliability in Arctic conditions. If only the hardware that we use in computers could have such a track record. The wheels turn slowly, though, and it's not clear what kind of gun will replace the Enfields.

50 of 334 comments (clear)

  1. May I suggest by reboot246 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    How about a modern .308 bolt-action rifle with a synthetic stock? The caliber is more than adequate; the stock won't be affected by the elements; and a bolt-action is very reliable. It's extremely simple and easy to keep clean. Almost any brand will do.

    1. Re:May I suggest by rubycodez · · Score: 4, Informative

      Wrong, stock will melt if left under vehicle curved window in summer. I speak from experience.

    2. Re:May I suggest by ihtoit · · Score: 4, Insightful

      composite (plastic) stocks do become very brittle in freezing weather (I know having had a Crosman Nightstalker disintegrate in my hands while out ratting just last February), this is why the CS proposals were rejected. There is an Enfield analogue already (what you might call a civilian version), but you won't find any Canadian hunters using it simply because it has a composite stock - the M10. Hardwoods are more stable in pretty much any environment as long as the grain is sealed, than any other material save titanium alloy, but I'm sure you wouldn't want to know what that'd cost.

      --
      Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
    3. Re: May I suggest by O('_')O_Bush · · Score: 5, Interesting

      That is because you were using a cheap-ass thermoplastic/synthetic stock instead of a quality fiberglass/synthetic stock.

      There are many bolt guns with similar functionality and better performance than the Lee-Enfield.

      For example, the Remington 700P weighs the same as an Enfield, but has modern accuracy (0.5 MOA out of the box isn't uncommon), durability (not as effected by temperature swings), and is available with modern cartridges like 308 Win and 300 Win Mag.

      Or there are rifles like the Ruger Gunsite Scout, while not combat proven, is cold weather hunting proven, offering a very lightweight package at aroun 7 lbs, 308 Win, better accuracy than the Enfield, a temperature resistant laminate stock, and back up irons.

      --
      while(1) attack(People.Sandy);
    4. Re:May I suggest by Charliemopps · · Score: 4, Informative

      I've owned quite a few Rifles in my time. Wood stocks are superior to composite in every category but 1. Composite is lighter.

    5. Re:May I suggest by Gonoff · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Wrong. That may apply to your military with its huge budgets and tiny political oversight.

      In the developed world, we do not feel obliged to be the worlds policeman and do not fund our services according to that idea.
      Yes, they do tend to get a lot of money but it's not limitless.

      --
      I'll see your Constitution and raise you a Queen.
    6. Re: May I suggest by O('_')O_Bush · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Fiberglass stocks do pretty well in the cold... well enough that the US Army and Marine corp chose them during the Cold War for their M40 and M24 sniper platforms with fighting in Siberia specifically in mind and tested them in field trials in Alaska.

      --
      while(1) attack(People.Sandy);
    7. Re: May I suggest by O('_')O_Bush · · Score: 4, Informative

      Or, shit, how about the AI Arctic Warfare rifles serviced by the Swedish and Norwegian militaries, amongst others, specifically designed for use in the extreme cold... and also using fiberglass/kevlar composite stocks.

      --
      while(1) attack(People.Sandy);
    8. Re:May I suggest by myowntrueself · · Score: 2

      How about a modern .308 bolt-action rifle with a synthetic stock? The caliber is more than adequate; the stock won't be affected by the elements; and a bolt-action is very reliable. It's extremely simple and easy to keep clean. Almost any brand will do.

      Yes, of course. Because of the shortage of wood in Canada right?

      --
      In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
    9. Re:May I suggest by davester666 · · Score: 2

      Yes, we have to blow our budget on those fancy F35's...

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    10. Re:May I suggest by Nimey · · Score: 2

      The Finns came up with a good solution with their reworked Mosins: 3-piece wooden stocks. They left gaps between the pieces to allow for expansion and contraction with ambient air temperature and humidity.

      --
      Hail Eris, full of mischief...

      E pluribus sanguinem
    11. Re: May I suggest by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2

      Canada is significantly colder than Sweden and Norway.

      Parts of it are. Considering the very wide range of temperatures across Canada, if the government is looking for one rifle to handle any conditions, and cost is a factor, they're better off with wood laminate stocks.

      If they've stuck this long with the Lee-Enfield, it's a pretty good indication that they're more concerned with reliability over many decades and standardization than they are with the latest tech.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    12. Re:May I suggest by Dzimas · · Score: 4, Informative

      You understand that there's a difference between the RCMP and the Canadian Forces, right?

      The Canadian Rangers' mandate is to provide a military presence and sovereignty patrols in sparsely settled and extremely remote (Northern) regions of the country. The force is made up of reservists, and they're issued a unique uniform -- CADPAT pants, bright red Ranger sweatshirt and baseball cap. The whole idea is to take a group of Northerners and leverage their wilderness and arctic skills. It's a much smarter and more cost-effective approach than attempting to train and equip a group of 18 year-old city kids for the tundra.

    13. Re: May I suggest by Gorshkov · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Full disclosure: I'm 56 years old, and still own a Lee-Enfield that was given to me by my father when I was 13, which originally belonged to HIS father. It still works as well as it did the day I got it.

      I grew up in Labrador, hunting fishing and camping. I had two tours of CFS Alert, at 82 deg 30 min North. I've been to Whitehorse, Yellowknife, Churchill, Tuktoyuktuk, Iqualiuit, and very many places in between. Believe me, I've seen cold - but cold isn't even the biggest problem.

      The Rangers are generally either Innu or Amerind. Technically, they are on duty or on call 24/7. Most of those involved in the Rangers still follow their traditional lifestyles - they hunt, fish, and trap for a living, and spend their time outdoors.

      They don''t carry multiple weapons - they don't have the space or weight to spare, given the rest of their kit. That's why the Lee-Enfield has lasted as long as it has - it can be used to hunt for seal, moose or caribou, or defence against moose (ugly, nasty brutes - very evil tempered), wolves, or polar bears. You can hit a target out to about 350 yards or so - more than sufficient for any practical use, and long enough that you don't have to do extra laundry because a polar bear decided that you looked like a snack.

      In the meantime - the rifle is carried around on your back while you're going through thick brush, getting banged and nicked as you go. It's sitting in the bottom of a canoe, or a kayak. it's getting banged around while sitting on the running boards of the snowmobile. It's in the bottom of a 12 foot motor boat while you go from island to island in the Arctic Ocean, getting banged around and covered with salt spray. It's stuffed where ever it can fit on the dogsled (yes, they are still used in some places). And after all that crap and abuse, you just have to pick the thing up, and it will hit what you aim at. No fuss, no muss.

      Bottom line: Stand me in the world's best gun shop, give me unlimited credit, and tell me I can take one - and ONLY one weapon. I'll take the Lee-Enfield, every time. And I'll still be using it when every other weapon there has died of old age or just disintegrated because of the environment.

      I pity the poor bastard that has to make the decision on the replacement. I'm just glad it's not me.

    14. Re:May I suggest by Gorshkov · · Score: 2

      Except in this case, their not military. Police have different requirements than the military, not the least of which is sticking to a budget.

      Except the Rangers *are* military. Their officers are Army, they are trained by the Army, supplied by the Army, and paid by the Army.

    15. Re: May I suggest by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I met that poor bastard who is helping make the decision last week - and everything you said is correct.

    16. Re:May I suggest by amiga3D · · Score: 2

      Seasoned hardwood doesn't warp. I've owned an enfield .303 and it's only drawback is that it's heavy. It's super accurate and unfailingly reliable with plenty of knockdown power. I don't like it for deer hunting because it's really a little too much rifle for deer.

    17. Re:May I suggest by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      but the AWP can kill someone if you shoot their toe or finger. the best strategy is to bunny hop around the battlefield to avoid being shot.
      you should also spin around so you can shout "LOL 360 kill"

    18. Re:May I suggest by cptdondo · · Score: 2

      Not really. These are backwoods weapons that see little to no maintenance. They don't get depot cleaning and parts aren't available. (Check out where and how the rangers operate).

      I shoot bolt action rifles and after a while you need to strip the bolts and clean them. The Lee Enfields may not see that for years if ever, and they still have to shoot, since the Ranger's life probably depends on it.

      So it's not "almost any brand" since few brands have that kind of reliability and track record.

      it's going to be a hard decision.

    19. Re:May I suggest by AJWM · · Score: 2

      And everyone who has played Counter-Strike knows that the AWP (http://counterstrike.wikia.com/wiki/AWP) is a great Arctic weapon.

      No, they know that the game designers thought it was a great Arctic weapon.

      Any relationship between what game designers think (or at least, put in their games -- ditto for authors) and the real world is entirely coincidental.

      --
      -- Alastair
    20. Re: May I suggest by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 2

      A pistol? I thought handguns were banned for good in England. What about those Olympic shooters that had to train in Switzerland or some other place like that?

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    21. Re: May I suggest by Strider- · · Score: 2

      Remember, the old Lee Enfield rifles were never designed as sniper weapons. They were battle rifles first and foremost, which just happened to be pretty serviceable as sniper weapons. Additionally, I don't think the rifles to be replaced are scoped rifles. As far as I know they are simply standard Lee Enfield No.4's.

      Years ago, I was working in a research camp in the high arctic, and the Arctic Ranger in our camp let me shoot his Lee Enfield. Amazing weapon, and the perfect thing for knocking down a polar bear. The amazing thing with the weapon I used, is that it had graphiti on the stock... Scratched into it, and nearly worn away was written "June 6, 1944." which to me indicates that the weapon had been used at Normandy. The serial number on the barrel also indicated that the weapon pre-dated the Normandy landings as well.

      --
      ...si hoc legere nimium eruditionis habes...
  2. a quick search by ihtoit · · Score: 4, Interesting

    ...reveals that Colt Canada will be producing the new ranger rifle, the RFP was put to pasture last month. My thinking is that the stock will be a sealed beech rather than abs plastic (which would become brittle in the cold), keep the ten round box but chamber the rifle for .308 Winchester (7.62 NATO) and keep the turn bolt action.

    --
    Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
    1. Re: a quick search by ColdWetDog · · Score: 2

      Dust. Dirt. Mud. Polar Bears. Soul freezing temperatures. Polar Bears. Mud. Dust. Dirt. Rocks.

      Polar Bears.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    2. Re: a quick search by SimonTheSoundMan · · Score: 3, Informative

      More accurate, don't jam as much in cold weather. If a Lee fails to fire, you can pull the pin back again without moving the bolt. If a bear is coming at me and the rifle fails to fire, do I want to pull a pin back and then it'll fire, or have to go through the drill of making the firearm safe, emptying the round from the chamber, then loading the next round then pray it fires that time around.

    3. Re: a quick search by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 2

      Reliability. Dust, mud, frozen water all will jam your semi-auto action or magazine. A bolt action will not suffer such fates. And even if the internal magazine jams, you can still operate single-shot without much effort. Bolt-action is just much more reliable. Just like a revolver is much more reliable than a semi-auto pistol. No fire? Pull the trigger again and it will go bang...

      --
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    4. Re: a quick search by ihtoit · · Score: 4, Informative

      1. bolt action because you don't need 30 rounds rapid to drop a polar bear.
      2. bolt action because automatics are high maintenance and require training for effective maintenance. A bolt action is just a case of unlock, remove bolt, clean bolt, shove a pipecleaner through the barrel and pull it through the breech. Done.
      3. bolt action because they are as quick to clear a jam as it is to clean. Shed bolt, ramrod down the muzzle, bolt back in, cock it.
      4. bolt action because jamming is an extremely rare occurrence.
      5. bolt action because anything with any more complicated of an action is just n+1 more components that are liable to fail at exactly the wrong moment.

      --
      Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
    5. Re: a quick search by Tailhook · · Score: 4, Informative

      Yeah that seems...odd.

      Nothing `odd' about it. Canadian Rangers aren't involved in an arms race. Bears and whatnot haven't evolved much since 1914, and they haven't been issued bear shaped body armor or fully automatic laser claws.

      Thus, a reliable bolt action rifle remains sufficient. Traipsing around Arctic tundra with a heavy, high maintenance semi auto just to fend off the wildlife would be silly.

      Bolt action rifles are still standard issue in the US military, ubiquitous in LE arsenals and remain wildly popular with civilians for whom new bolt action designs continue to appear. Once you exceed 5.56 NATO and 7.62×39mm calibers bolt action is by far the most common rifle action type for non-military applications.

      --
      Maw! Fire up the karma burner!
    6. Re: a quick search by morethanapapercert · · Score: 4, Informative
      Except that Canadian Rangers do not use modern small unit tactics. They do not conduct what you'd think of as a military patrol, more like a border security and game warden patrol. The primary purpose of their rifles is self defence against wildlife or obtaining food while on patrol, not engaging a human enemy. This is also behind the rationale for the .303 cartridge rather than the more modern .308, 300 winmag and other rounds I've seen suggested. Canadian Rangers don't need long range accuracy, they need medium range stopping power using only the military ball rounds approved by international conventions. (the Hague Convention if memory serves correctly)

      The conditions and primary mission of the Canadian Rangers also drives the choice of bolt action vs a semi-automatic. Compared to more modern firearms, the Lee-Enfield is built with fairly loose tolerances, so the barrel and action can expand and contract in response to the heat of firing and the extreme cold often found in the Arctic without failing. (when shooting an attacking polar bear at less than 200m, making sure the weapon works is far more important than obtaining sub-MOA accuracy.) The weapon also has to be easily field-stripped even when wearing gloves. Being a Commonwealth country, we still have lots and lots of WW1 issue rifles, making their use very cost effective. The only reason the Canadian Forces wants to replace it is because nobody has made parts for them in decades, so things like firing pins and trigger springs are becoming scarce.

      --
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    7. Re: a quick search by Tailhook · · Score: 3, Informative

      AK-47, that swedish FNC variant, RK-62

      Replace .303 British with an intermediate cartridge? For bear and moose?

      Dude. Shut up. Stop typing stuff. Just stop.

      --
      Maw! Fire up the karma burner!
    8. Re: a quick search by dryeo · · Score: 3, Informative

      Bears and whatnot haven't evolved much since 1914

      Actually there is a new species appearing due to global warming, the Pizzly bear, a cross between a Polar Bear and Grizzly Bear, so even bigger and thinks of people as food. It's new enough that the Inuit don't have a name for it.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    9. Re: a quick search by JMJimmy · · Score: 3, Informative

      Moose have terrible eye sight, if you're up wind of them they get curious as to what you are and can run you down unintentionally. I learned this the hard way in Gross Mourne when one chased me down a trail - would have run me over had it not been for the park ranger who scared it away (took 2 tries, after the first try it came back and started running at us again). It was not-rutting season and it was a female.

    10. Re: a quick search by ihtoit · · Score: 2

      I would think so, the deck-mounted platform only weighs 6 tonnes. You'd get that on the back of a longbase Hummer - or a Bradley.

      M61 Gatling CIWS: when you absolutely, positively gotta cut every motherfucker in half with a wall of 20mm tungsten sabot.

      --
      Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
    11. Re: a quick search by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 2
      --
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  3. Enfield .303? Wow!! I know these rifles. by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 2
    They are very common in India, and I assume in all of British Commonwealth. Local police have them but usually do not carry them around regularly. A typical police station would have about six of them very visible but locked by a strip of metal. All the police station scenes in Bollywood movies would have them. The National Cadet Corps, a high school student training program, would culminate with the training to use these rifles. We get to fire at most 10 rounds as the right of passage to get the "C" certificate if I remember right.

    To imagine the same weapon used so heavily in the tropics, mud and monsoon being noted for its reliability in Arctic conditions is amazing. But this is a very simple basic weapon. Even India is phasing them out, apparently.

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    1. Re:Enfield .303? Wow!! I know these rifles. by rikkards · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Getting my gun license in a couple months and it is on the list of guns I want. I spent a week up north working with the Canadian Military and a bit with the Rangers and I enjoyed it immensely. They get an allowance to purchase their own equipment. Once out on the tundra they revert to the traditional garb as they found the high-tech stuff doesn't work well.

    2. Re:Enfield .303? Wow!! I know these rifles. by i.r.id10t · · Score: 2

      The Indian ones are typically in 762x51 NATO (aka 308 winchester) not 303 brit

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos
    3. Re:Enfield .303? Wow!! I know these rifles. by Savage-Rabbit · · Score: 3, Interesting

      To imagine the same weapon used so heavily in the tropics, mud and monsoon being noted for its reliability in Arctic conditions is amazing. But this is a very simple basic weapon. Even India is phasing them out, apparently.

      Not really, all those late 19th century bolt action rifles were extremely reliable, that's why the bolt action is still the most popular rifle action in use today which says something about the soundness of Nikolaus von Dreyse's original design that first saw the light of day back in 1824. This type of gun has been used in the high Andes in S-America, jungles in Africa/America/Asia and deserts around the world. The German Mausers and Russian Mosin Nagants operated just as reliably in those places as the Lee Enfield and long as you had proper gun oil that didn't sieze the gun up in extreme cold they did well in the extreme Arctic too. Bolt action Enfields and Russian Mosin Nagants are still in widespread use by the Taleban in Afghanistan and Pakistan and througout the Middle East. I've seen these old guns in the hands of Hamas guerillas in the Gaza strip (At least one was a WWI Turkish Mauser by the look of it) and by rebels fighters in Arabia. People may think that's comical but in the hands of a decent marksman some of these old war horses will still out shoot a Government trooper armed with a brand spanking new M4 Carbine, G-36 or AK-47.

      --
      Only to idiots, are orders laws.
      -- Henning von Tresckow
  4. About time by timeOday · · Score: 4, Funny

    I saw a documentary on these poor saps and they were scurrying around in snow tunnels and using rifles against huge manned robots. They managed to get one by tying a cable around its legs using one of the few little airplanes that they had, but in the end it was a rout.

  5. Don't be ridiculous by damn_registrars · · Score: 2

    If only the hardware that we use in computers could have such a track record.

    Nobody wants 100 year old computational hardware. Giving hardware longer longevity at this point would be pointless as it becomes obsolete around the same time it fails. Would you buy a 286 PC today from someone who said it was reliable? No, of course not - and that would only be around 30 years old. Furthermore nothing that is made today will be of any significance in 100 years.

    --
    Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
  6. Cheap choice of plastic by sjbe · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Wrong, stock will melt if left under vehicle curved window in summer. I speak from experience.

    Then it was an inappropriate choice of material but that is not sufficient evidence to condemn (or recommend) synthetics in general. Most cars are loaded with plastics and they don't melt. If the stock you had melted from the fairly modest heat in a car, then it was a piece of junk to begin with. No plastic on a working tool should melt that easily unless that was the specific intent.

    There are plenty of non-exotic plastics with melting points well in excess of 130C (266F), and some considerably higher. Nylon's melting point is 190C for example. I work with many of them routinely. If your car is getting that hot I think some plastic melting will be the least of your concern.

    1. Re: Cheap choice of plastic by sixsixtysix · · Score: 2

      did peta give you a hard time?

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      ...
  7. Re:May I suggest RTFA? by WegianWarrior · · Score: 3, Informative

    If you had read the article, you would have noticed that “the supply chain no longer has the parts to sustain this weapon long term.” This is because the weapon is old and - from a military point of view - obsolete, so spare parts are no longer manufactured. It'll probably be quite a bit cheaper to re-equip with a newer rifle than to re-establish a Lee-Enfield production line - especially considering they are likely to pick an off-the-shelf rifle to equip a rather small force.

    --
    Everything in the world is controlled by a small, evil group to which, unfortunately, no one you know belongs.
  8. Re:May I suggest RTFA? by arth1 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's also bullshit. For a weapon this age, there are no patents, and parts can and are supplied by a multitude of vendors. The number of vendors that specialize on supplying parts for firearms that are no longer produced is quite high.
    What I see is an unfounded belief that buying long-term non-OEM support will be more expensive than buying support for a new weapon. In the real world, it's the other way around - new weapons are far more expensive to support. Never mind all the other costs of switching.

    Mark my words: Five years from now, there are going to be Canadian news articles about how the original budget was blown several times over.

    My guess: Someone has been promised kickbacks and incentives, and the choice of a replacement has already been made. It will now be followed by a circus to "determine" that it's the best choice. And it will end up costing the tax payers a fortune. I.e. a smaller version of the F-35 scam. Follow the money trail.

  9. Re:Can I have some of what you're smoking? by Hognoxious · · Score: 2

    I think there's about as much chance of having a small arms conflict in the Arctic as there is of Putin invading Greenland riding a polar bear.

    So if the press are there and he takes his shirt off it's about evens?

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  10. Re:RTFA by ihtoit · · Score: 2

    kill range on a scattershot using tri-ball 12 is 17 yards (anything smaller and ALL you're gonna do is piss it off). A polar bear can clear fifty one feet VERY fast. And they have very thick fur, so unless you catch it in the eye, you ain't killing it at range with a shotgun.

    --
    Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
  11. Re:May I suggest RTFA? by pz · · Score: 3

    My guess: Someone has been promised kickbacks and incentives, and the choice of a replacement has already been made. It will now be followed by a circus to "determine" that it's the best choice. And it will end up costing the tax payers a fortune. I.e. a smaller version of the F-35 scam. Follow the money trail.

    DING, DING, DING! And we have our winner! Money and votes are the only motivations here. Nothing else makes sense. Money, some manufacturer is going to get a juicy multi-year exclusive contract. Votes, some MP is going to be able to say, "look how many jobs I brought into our district!"

    --

    Put my fist through my alarm clock with its ding-dong death inside my ear. - The Blackjacks.
  12. I had one for a while. by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 2

    It was a military surplus rifle that had been "sporterized" (mainly by cutting the stock down to a more civilian profile).

    The Enfield has an interesting history: Back in the period leading up to WWII the British mmilitary had a good idea the war was coming. The army was armed mainly wiith the Lee-Enfield bolt action rifles and they knew they needed a good slect fire automatic/semiautomatic rifle to replace them, least they be outgunned. But they debated over WHICH design to pick for so long that, when the Blitzkreig brought the Germans into a faceoff with the British, the autos weren't yet deployed.

    It turns out that the Lee-Enfield action has a number of features that make it VERY much faster to operate than other bolt-action military weapons of the time. The bolt has a very small throw angle. It has rear, not front, locking lugs (out where there's lots of clearance and little stress and opportunity for dirt to gum them up). The action is almost glassy-smooth. The bolt ball is located where it can be opened by the thumb, while slapping it closed with the palm, doesn't require accurate positioning of the hand, and guides the hand back to the correct position to fire, letting the user's attention remain on the target scene and sight picture. It cocks on closing (rather than on opening as Mausers do), dedicating essentially all the energy on opening to case extraction, rather than splitting it with spring-cocking and keeping the opening and closing work closer to equal.

    The result is that, with a modicum of practice, a rifleman with a Lee-Enfield can achieve higher firing rates than the operator of a machine gun. (Machine gun rates are deliberately limited to make them easier to control and aim, avoid wasting ammunition, and reduce overheating, burnout, and jamming.) It can't keep it up as LONG, because the Lee Enfield has a small, fixed, magazine. But it can fire a couple fast, controlled, bursts - just what is needed in many situations - using a powerful rifle cartridge.

    By comparison the Germans were armed with things like the recently developed "assault rifle" - a short-barreled select-fire rifle (for easy handling in cramped hallways or popping up out of a tank hatch), firing a low-powered cartridge. (Militaries had figured out that a gun should be designed to WOUND, not kill: Kill a soldier and you take one out of action - wound him and you use up him, his buddy, a medic, and a lot of infrastructure and supplies taking care of him and shipping him back home.)

    The Blitzkreig stormed across much of Europe and encountered only limited resistance, typically armed with the likes of the slower bolt-action Mausers. Then they came up against the British. They knew the Brits were armed with bolt-actions and believed their own propaganda about their lack of resolve. So they expected to sweep them up as they had their previous encounters. They came charging out, and were blasted back, repeatedly, by withering fire. There are records of communications from the front where the officers were claiming all the Brits were armed with machine guns. (I hear one of these records is a recording - with the officer in question being killed in mid-message by a round from one of those Lee-Enfields.)

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
    1. Re:I had one for a while. by lars_stefan_axelsson · · Score: 4, Informative

      No, that's wrong on many accounts. The german reports of withering Lee-Enfield fire are from the first world war. And since the German army had extensive experience from the Lee-Enfield from the first world war, its capabilities weren't a surprise the second time around. Not by a long shot.

      But that didn't matter since rifles were passe. The German infantry squad was armed with the Mauser (shortened version of the full length rifle of WWI) throughout WWII. But that didn't matter as the rifle squad had the newly invented general purpose machine gun to form around. It was even considered the sole reason for the squad's existence. (See e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?...). Note that only NCOs etc. were supplied with any kind of automatic weapons, in most cases the "Schmeisser" submachine gun. The rest of the squad was basically there to carry ammunition for the machine gun and to provide flank cover for the crew. And the German rifle squad could definately put more rounds on target than a British rifle squad of the time, the "mad minute" not withstanding.

      The sturmgewehr 44 didn't come out until (you guessed it), 1944, and was never a standard rifle squad rifle. It's cartridge was emphatically not developed with any "only need to wound" factor taken into account. Instead it was recognised that most targets were human, and only 150m away or so (max 300). So much could be saved by developing a cartridge for that situation instead of a cartridge that could topple a horse at shorter ranges and a man at 1000m (the original design specifications actually hinged on the effectiveness against horses, as stopping a cavalry charge was still very much the order of the day). So instead the "kurz" round was developed to give rifle like performance out to a couple of hundred meters, but allowing the carrying of more ammunition both on the person and in the gun, and much lower recoil, which becomes important in a fully automatic weapon.

      The "wound not kill" design parameters don't come into effect until 5.56mm NATO and the corresponding USSR rounds were introduced in the late sixties/seventies. (As can be observed by their abysmal performance in a full metal jacket to actually stop a man. They still kill without much problem.) Horses were out of the picture when 5.56mm NATO was developed, so that together with "wounding factor" (wound not kill wasn't really a factor when designing rifle ammunitio) is why they got away with such a weak cartridge. Which was actually weaker from the beginning but the Army kept insisting on being able to penetrate a steel helmet at 300m, so the case had to be lengthened and lengthened to fit enough propellant. That gave the unfortunate case dimensions that are with us still to this day.

      --
      Stefan Axelsson
  13. That is a very different material by dbIII · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Epoxy is a thermosetting plastic so is very unlike nylon. It's already as brittle as it is going to get at room temperature - it keeps the same toughness at lower temperatures because it doesn't have a glass transition temperature like nylon does. It's due to the two materials having very different structures. Epoxy has a lot of crosslinking, like a mesh, while nylon doesn't, like spaghetti. Cool the spaghetti down and there's a lot more resistance to it moving about on the plate until suddenly it's all stuck frozen together - glass transition temperature.
    Look up "thermosetting vs thermoplastic" for some ideas. What the holders of the nylon patent know is not relevant for something made of glass reinforced epoxy resin.