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When Snowden Speaks, Future Lawyers (and Judges) Listen
TheRealHocusLocus writes: We are witness to a historic first: an individual charged with espionage and actively sought by the United States government has been (virtually) invited to speak at Harvard Law School, with applause. [Note: all of the following links go to different parts of a long YouTube video.] HLS Professor Lawrence Lessig conducted the hour-long interview last Monday with a list of questions by himself and his students.
Some interesting segments from the interview include: Snowden's assertion that mass domestic intercept is an "unreasonable seizure" under the 4th Amendment; that it also violates "natural rights" that cannot be voted away even by the majority; a claim that broad surveillance detracts from the ability to monitor specific targets such as the Boston Marathon bombers; him calling out Congress for not holding Clapper accountable for misstatements; and his lament that contractors are exempt from whistleblower protection though they do swear an oath to defend the Constitution from enemies both foreign and domestic.
These points have been brought up before. But what may be most interesting to these students is Snowden's suggestion that a defendant under the Espionage Act should be permitted to present an argument before a jury that the act was committed "in the public interest." Could this help ensure a fair trial for whistleblowers whose testimony reveals Constitutional violation?
Some interesting segments from the interview include: Snowden's assertion that mass domestic intercept is an "unreasonable seizure" under the 4th Amendment; that it also violates "natural rights" that cannot be voted away even by the majority; a claim that broad surveillance detracts from the ability to monitor specific targets such as the Boston Marathon bombers; him calling out Congress for not holding Clapper accountable for misstatements; and his lament that contractors are exempt from whistleblower protection though they do swear an oath to defend the Constitution from enemies both foreign and domestic.
These points have been brought up before. But what may be most interesting to these students is Snowden's suggestion that a defendant under the Espionage Act should be permitted to present an argument before a jury that the act was committed "in the public interest." Could this help ensure a fair trial for whistleblowers whose testimony reveals Constitutional violation?
Right or Wrong, he's a brave man.
What the NSA is doing is billions of counts of illegal wiretapping. A This kind of mass data gathering is precisely what the fourth amendment prohibits, and any person involved with this program is violating their oath and committing felonies on a routine basis.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
dude that's kind of harsh. why all the hate for a guy who's just doing his thing? he didn't do anything to you.
snowden is a hero, you sir are a moron.
DiceDot takes notes.
There's no way companies are paying Alexanders new company a million $ a month to consult. He's not allowed to reveal secret info, and public info is free. So what would the be paying for. There's no way the current NSA CTO is moonlighting for it and nobody in the NSA bats an eyelid. You would never have a part time employee in that position in the NSA, the money would be a conflict of interest.
What does make sense, is if this company is a conduit from banks and telcos to NSA.
You can't legally search US bank records, but if his company received those records and resold them, then a conduit like that could conceal the source of the data. So this is what makes a more plausible role for that company that would be worth the millions per year, laundering the source of the data into the NSA.
A data broker for data that the NSA legally can't obtain from the original source. When they ask the NSA if it obtained US Bank data, it says no (pretending it doesn't know the data it bought from this conduit company came from banks), when they ask them if they obtained telco data they again say no.
Likewise foreign partners like GCHQ, are spying on Brits via companies like BT & Vodafone and sending the data to the NSA. But suppose instead they simply sold data for some company to process, and that company happened to resell that data to some other company which then lands in the NSAs database.
Q. Did NSA get any data from Vodafone.
A. Not to my knowledge.... says the NSA man.
A million dollars worth of plausible deniability. Now that *does* seem a more plausible role for his new company and its what I suspect is behind it.
That's why you are part of the problem, you boot licking moron.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Wow, man, having a really bad hair day? Trouble is, that it is batshit crazies like you that are the reason why the Patriot Act is in effect.
Go away NSA...
Snowden isn't some harmless guy "just doing his thing." He committed crimes that carry the death penalty. Snowden screwed America and its citizens, much of Europe, Canada, New Zealand, and Australia, even if you don't recognize it, or even cheer him for it.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Sting calls it decades ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
The reason that the Patriot Act is in effect is because of murderous bastards like ISIS and al Qaeda. Snowden has helped them evade intelligence gathering by telling them how it is done and by whom. Batshit crazy people cheer Snowden for that betrayal.
America (US government) screwed America, Europe and the rest of the world. Not Snowdon. Ignorance isn't bliss.
Another part of the problem is people making bullshit claims like this.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Snowden is going to die defecating in his pants. His eyes will be open and his mouth will resemble that of a gasping fish.
Well, just like chemtrails didn't exist before radio was invented, ISIS didn't exist before Snowden leaked those documents and this government certainly seemed clueless about them until they beheaded a gold club and a few citizens.
No idea what technology is available to Snowden today, but the interview would have been much more enjoyable if he'd bothered to wear a mic.
How about you stop defending those who commit treason under color of authority? Those who commit crimes that carry the death penalty every single day?
Violations of oath are High Crimes. That makes you eligible for the death penalty, federally. Snowden's only "crime" is exposing them.
Just because you don't like the view doesn't make it a troll.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Then why not apply the NSA surveillance to IS and Al-quaida only?? Instead of wasting resources,violating rights on a massive scale and targeting the whole fucking planet????
Yes. IS et al. needs to be stopped. But leave alone everyone else. The end.
Big surprise. How much does the NSA pay you?
No. 1 Bootlicker says BS, because he himself is guilty of High Crimes which makes him eligible for the Death Penalty.
You have no respect for the Constitution or the rights of others. Die in a fire, fascist scum. You are a disgrace and a traitor to this country.
Snowden committed espionage. He's lucky he hasn't been charged with Aiding the Enemy. It would be appropriate.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
And you wonder why there is so much hate for America in the world? You wonder why many people consider Americans to be gun-crazy psychopaths void of reason? Ignoring laws, treaties, etc as they fit as the bully they are?
Tell me again where the difference is between the US and the Arab world. You know those bastards like to kill in the name of honour and consider them to be superior to everyone else, too. They even like a theocracy. Just like parts (the GOP/tea party) of the US do.
The US is a beautiful country with many nice people and is right to be proud of itself. But not more than that.
As opposed to the NSA who actually and literally commits illegal espionage every single day.
Yes. I know what foreign surveillance is supposed to do. Does the NSA do know that?
No but it also does not negate the fact that you are a boot-licking Statist fuck.
Why don't you just have the government wipe your ass for you. You already let them tell you what you can and can't put in to your body, you already let them listen to all of your discussions in private, you already let them do whatever they damn well want.
And the worst part is, you see nothing wrong. Either you (or someone in your family) is employed in the system and you have a vested interest in the Status Quo, or worse, much, much worse, you actually believe this shit is right.
Ben Franklin said at the end of the constitutional convention on 17 Sept. 1787:
"I think a general Government necessary for us, and there is no form of Government but what may be a blessing to the people if well administered, and believe farther that this is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in Despotism, as other forms have done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted as to need despotic Government, being incapable of any other. "
Notice the key words there need and incapable. People like you are incapable having and keeping a Free Republic and need to have a tyranny and if you represent a sizable portion of the citizenry then we are fucked for a very, very, very long time.
Captcha: Coffins...I swear to God this thing is an AI...
Benjamin Franklin opened other colonist's mail for intelligence purposes in the Revolutionary War. George Washington ran a spy ring during and after the Revolutionary War that spied on other colonists.
It seems there is more to establishing and keeping the American Republic than you understand. Perhaps you just aren't capable. What a pity.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
You fail to realize that sometimes an intelligence tool can work well in one situation and be completely and totally abused in another.
As I said, either you have a vested interest in the established order (I suspect either contractor, employee or relative), or worse, you actually believe that everything the NSA is doing and has done is right and justifiable and maybe even that they should be doing more.
You may be partially right, I am not capable of comprehending how someone can honestly believe that. It's like honestly believing that the universe is really turtles all the way down.
In Federalist #47 Madison said:
"The accumulation of all powers, legislative, executive, and judiciary, in the same hands, whether of one, a few, or many, and whether hereditary, self-appointed, or elective, may justly be pronounced the very definition of tyranny"
There is a corollary here: The collection of information from all in the hands of one is the enabler of tyranny
Captcha: suppress....wow, really?
Whereas you'll die alone and afraid and loved by no-one, with Cheetohs grease on your lips and fingers.
(IOW, pretty much as you've lived your life.)
There is no enemy, since the US isn't in a state of war with anybody.
Get us a declaration of war as mandated by the Constitution, and then we'll start talking about an enemy.
Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
I refer you to Public Law 107-40. It is legally equivalent to a declaration of war. That is settled law.
Identifying the enemy is a trivial exercise left to the reader.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Chemtrails don't exist, period. IS does. Your point?
Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
Since there will always be enemies of the State, can you define the conditions of victory for this war? Or will we always be at war?
I would like to know when it will be over so I can come back to my home.
Really that the Espionage Act is even on the books is a matter of great shame. It was invented to suppress pacifist groups. That Schneck vs. United States was unanimous in upholding this is the yet another indictment of the White Court (may the nine of them rot and burn in Hell).
Upton Sinclair, Ida Tarbel, Jack Anderson, Paul Anderson, Edward Snowden.
Just because he exposes a government and not a business, does not make him any less important. In years to come, students around the country will read about what he has done. Eventually his actions will be considered like some of the above.
Chemtrails certainly do exst- or they did exist. We know that because the US airfotce sprayed chemically identifyable fire retardting foam at different altitudes to determine dispersion zones for use in biological or chemical weapons defense during the late 80s and again in the 90s. NASA has done similar in cooperation with NOAA in the 70s to determine if it was possible to seed rain clouds and force it to rain.
And the point was maybe is isn't connected or maybe it is. But for some reasons, even after Bush warned of it, our government seemed clueless about ISIS until it forced us to pay attention. That reason could be because we didn't want the political damage, we didn't care about them, or because they were able to evade our abilities to detect and asses them. The later being made easier with all our secrets out and the manpower devoted to repairing our abilities.
Your reply was a string of amusing assumptions (I smiled). My initial comment was a statement of fact.
Would you really prefer to live in the world where the Snowden revelations would not have happened?
Benjamin Franklin opened other colonist's mail for intelligence purposes in the Revolutionary War. George Washington ran a spy ring during and after the Revolutionary War that spied on other colonists.
It seems there is more to establishing and keeping the American Republic than you understand. Perhaps you just aren't capable. What a pity.
That's great. We are not in a Revolutionary War right now. Also "the American Republic" does not imply:
-- bases all around the world
-- entangling alliances (five eyes)
-- running the world
You are commited to keeping something, but it is certainly not "the American Republic" it is something far different and on a global scale.
I should also add, "opened mail" and "ran a spy ring" is far different with today's technology.
"For intelligence purposes" is also not what the NSA is doing . In addition, the NSA should not be storing or interpreting data. They can certainly crack signals. They are going far, far beyond their charter.
"Signals intelligence" (and further investigation by another agency, with a warrant) is far different than "collect it all, everything on everyone, for future use at an undetermined time."
They wouldn't be committing felonies as that would require a violation of law rather than violations of constitutional restrictions against government. The law, constitutional or not, allows the NSA to do what they are doing else a lowly court could shut it all down by a simple low level prosecutor bringing charges to a grand jury.
Which is why no one in Congress can be expected to cast the first stone at the NSA. Whether they are in a position to know of its effectiveness or not, they will shy away in mortal political terror of NSA producing clear evidence that mass surveillance has "kept us safe". Still waiting. Likewise, pure judicial challenges run into stone walls as courts circularly argue over jurisdiction.
Or in the case of Hepting v. AT&T the Ninth Circuit committed to a sorry-ass monkey fuck decision where the case was dismissed on the basis of a piece of legislation ('retroactively' granting telecom immunity) that was passed after the case was filed. Pause to reflect on that. Has there ever been a clearer example of dereliction of duty of the judicial branch? Or a clearer admission of guilt by the Government?
That is because the NSA was terrified of Hepting vs. AT&T, more scared than it had ever been. Think of this case as a Pandora's box for them --- in which dozens (if not hundreds) of civilian technicians who had been involved in constructing its backbone taps might be encouraged to come forward to add their own piece to a sketch of NSA's domestic spy apparatus. As they came forward you'd see a map of the USA with taps appearing all over, and that would dispel any rhetoric claiming they did not intend to tap America itself.
And besides --- my own speculation but borne out in several places --- I allege that Hepting vs. AT&T would also have exposed that some technicians building our taps were foreign nationals and foreign corporations under contract to NSA. Countries whose spies we have convicted. Strange bedfellows laid bare. Gathering conversations (not silly metadata) has been portrayed as a high cost of liberty, though in the wrong hands it will subvert liberty. Our challenge is to prove this on three fronts.
We must seek to de-fund the NSA by calling into question the track record of mass surveillance to counter threats as of this day --- today. I draw a line at today because they could be cooking up something for tomorrow...
We must de-construct and demonstrate the motive behind mass surveillance to conclude that its only purpose in the end is to gather blackmail and empower absolute rulers with the tools they need to subvert our system of Government. This is true even if those presently engaged in it have good intentions.
We must defame the NSA and what it has become, the people behind it, the Senators who support it because someone whispered something in their ear --- was it a secret of National Security or was it blackmail? There's the rub --- dismantle it.
And that Constitution thing. Thar be dragins.
<blink>down the rabbit hole</blink>
Benjamin Franklin opened other colonist's mail for intelligence purposes in the Revolutionary War. George Washington ran a spy ring during and after the Revolutionary War that spied on other colonists.
I like person X.
Person X did IllegalThingTM.
Ergo, IllegalThingTM is OK.
Hey! Did you know that there's a name for what you just did?
And it stands even when a president does it.
Did you also know that you're full of shit? There, proven in black and white.
It isn't just a question of there being "enemies of the state," but rather there being enemies willing to kill in large numbers.
If the enemy doesn't get tired of attacking, should the US just stop defending and let people die? Or should the US just surrender, force people to convert to Islam, and institute Sharia?
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
You live in a very sad and paranoid little world. If anything, your lashing out at others is what fuels that delusion.
I guess you never bother to read the news or inform yourself. There is more to the world than what is inside your skull.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Chemtrails certainly do exst
Wow. Just... wow. You need to see a shrink. You're actually, legitimately, certifiably crazy.
I thought you were just some fascist nutball with an authoritarian hard-on. But no, you're actually crazy. Like paranoid delusional schizophrenic crazy.
Please go see a shrink before you hurt yourself or someone. Also, take down the photos of your weed plants. That's pretty stupid to leave online.
Nothing in my post was factually incorect. Perhaps you are looking in a mirror and thought you were talking to yourself.
How very Kim Jong Un of you. Obviously, the civics classes didn't stick and you have no understanding of American values.
What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
That's great. We are not in a Revolutionary War right now.
Even if we were, that wouldn't make it right. Stop seemingly defending privacy violations.
Dude. Chemtrails are a conspiracy theory. They're NOT REAL. You got a citation from a publication of record to back that shit up?
The only one who needs a mirror here is you. You have a serious mental illness.
Putin, is that you?
If you'd like, I can do you a favor and notify the appropriate authorities, since you so kindly left incriminating photos of yourself growing illegal drugs AND your phone number all over the Internet.
I mean, you're crazy and too incompetent to even cover your own tracks.
> My initial comment was a statement of fact.
I'm not sure you grasp the concept of "facts".
There is no enemy, since the US isn't in a state of war with anybody.
I thought we were at war with Eastasia? Or was it Eurasia? I'm so confused.
By his own admission Snowden is a thief and liar. Whether he's also a traitor, well, I'll wait for sworn testimony at his trial, I try not to prejudge.
> It doesn't matter if Edward Snowden is going to die screaming.
FTFY
Snowden isn't some harmless guy "just doing his thing." He committed crimes that carry the death penalty. Snowden screwed America and its citizens, much of Europe, Canada, New Zealand, and Australia, even if you don't recognize it, or even cheer him for it.
he just publicly showed proof of how rotten government is in america and much of europe. it's those governments who screwed their citizens.
if you believe this deserves death penalty _for_the_messager_ then you are the traitor, but more than that you are a sick piece of shit.
sorry, europe calling. don't trivialize. us hate has way more serious roots, it isn't for what retarded psychos like this one you respond to may spew on internet. how do you know he is an us citizen at all? dipshits like this are everywhere.
Be patient. 3
Is that an admission of accomplice to murder?
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
It should follow its own laws otherwise it does not matter. When a government no longer follows its own laws, that is the definition of the tyranny, be it Sharia or the false pretense of a free republic.
The text of the law you reference limits the governments response to those that committed the crime on 9/11, gave those same people support, or those same people planning a future attack, not any random jackass muslim extremist. The black letter of the law is limited to only those people but you are supporting the United States doing whatever it wants in the name of prevent some possible imagined future threat, letter of the law be damned.
I have no mod point or I would mod parent up in an instant
The parent has laid out a very clear message why NSA must be defeated, if we want USA to stay a nation where freedom and liberty remain valid
The whole purpose of juries is to create the possibility of nullification. However, the government hates this limitation of its preferably unfettered powers and tries to prevent jurors being informed of their right to strike down unjust prosecution.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J...
http://reason.com/blog/2014/10...
Prove anything by multiplying Huge Number times Tiny Number
I thought freedom was more important than privacy. Why are you against freedom? Is it just to protect the perverts?
I thought freedom was more important than privacy.
Freedom is more important than safety. Privacy is part of freedom.
Furthermore, the government infringing upon your freedoms makes the government (supposedly by the people and for the people) your enemy, and morally, that's the worst result of all, even if the alternative is being destroyed.
No, there is a conspiracy that defined chemtrails. That is not real. However, the definition of chemtrails meets the activities i described and they had actually happened.
The cloud seeding program we learned about in highschool- some 10-15 years before the term chemtrail was created or the conspiracy that surrounds it. The airforce tests were also a few years before and likely part of the reason the conspiracy was born. It happened after the first gulf war but before the ok city bombing. I was part of a group that collected soil samples accross the mid west from nation and state parks. It was a flame retardent foam with chemical identifyers- completely non hazzardous and supposedly biodegradable.. We filled a ville, put a power in it, capped it, some paper work and it was mailed off to a lab in the same box it came in.
I'm not even going to bother looking for a citation- i gave enough information that your google fingers should be able to find it. But note, i'm not saying it is still happening or there is any truth to the conspiracy or not. I didn't even pay attention to it until you brought it up.
There is still the so called "war on terror".
"Terror" is how the government call Arabs.
Disagree.
Re: "They wouldn't be committing felonies as that would require a violation of law rather than violations of constitutional restrictions..."
Um, whut? You are aware, are you not, that "constitutional restrictions" are in fact the source and root of all other laws? Therefore the constitution is law and violations of the constitution is violation of the law. Furthermore ordinary legislation cannot contradict the constitution. Such laws are null and void. Laws routinely interpret the constitution; indeed that is necessary and the reason why the constitution alone is not sufficient law. However any interpretation along the lines of "yes means no and black is white" are strictly forbidden.
Re: "Once it is in the grand jury's hands, the government cannot order the prosecutor to stop anything..."
Are you not paying attention? I would have agreed with you pre-911. Since that time the government has, many times interfered with cases before the courts. All they have to do is invoke the Patriot Act, claim that the evidence is secret, or the sources are secret. I'm not aware of any cases where they suggested that the charges were secret but that's the next logical step.