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When Snowden Speaks, Future Lawyers (and Judges) Listen
TheRealHocusLocus writes: We are witness to a historic first: an individual charged with espionage and actively sought by the United States government has been (virtually) invited to speak at Harvard Law School, with applause. [Note: all of the following links go to different parts of a long YouTube video.] HLS Professor Lawrence Lessig conducted the hour-long interview last Monday with a list of questions by himself and his students.
Some interesting segments from the interview include: Snowden's assertion that mass domestic intercept is an "unreasonable seizure" under the 4th Amendment; that it also violates "natural rights" that cannot be voted away even by the majority; a claim that broad surveillance detracts from the ability to monitor specific targets such as the Boston Marathon bombers; him calling out Congress for not holding Clapper accountable for misstatements; and his lament that contractors are exempt from whistleblower protection though they do swear an oath to defend the Constitution from enemies both foreign and domestic.
These points have been brought up before. But what may be most interesting to these students is Snowden's suggestion that a defendant under the Espionage Act should be permitted to present an argument before a jury that the act was committed "in the public interest." Could this help ensure a fair trial for whistleblowers whose testimony reveals Constitutional violation?
Some interesting segments from the interview include: Snowden's assertion that mass domestic intercept is an "unreasonable seizure" under the 4th Amendment; that it also violates "natural rights" that cannot be voted away even by the majority; a claim that broad surveillance detracts from the ability to monitor specific targets such as the Boston Marathon bombers; him calling out Congress for not holding Clapper accountable for misstatements; and his lament that contractors are exempt from whistleblower protection though they do swear an oath to defend the Constitution from enemies both foreign and domestic.
These points have been brought up before. But what may be most interesting to these students is Snowden's suggestion that a defendant under the Espionage Act should be permitted to present an argument before a jury that the act was committed "in the public interest." Could this help ensure a fair trial for whistleblowers whose testimony reveals Constitutional violation?
Right or Wrong, he's a brave man.
What the NSA is doing is billions of counts of illegal wiretapping. A This kind of mass data gathering is precisely what the fourth amendment prohibits, and any person involved with this program is violating their oath and committing felonies on a routine basis.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
dude that's kind of harsh. why all the hate for a guy who's just doing his thing? he didn't do anything to you.
snowden is a hero, you sir are a moron.
There's no way companies are paying Alexanders new company a million $ a month to consult. He's not allowed to reveal secret info, and public info is free. So what would the be paying for. There's no way the current NSA CTO is moonlighting for it and nobody in the NSA bats an eyelid. You would never have a part time employee in that position in the NSA, the money would be a conflict of interest.
What does make sense, is if this company is a conduit from banks and telcos to NSA.
You can't legally search US bank records, but if his company received those records and resold them, then a conduit like that could conceal the source of the data. So this is what makes a more plausible role for that company that would be worth the millions per year, laundering the source of the data into the NSA.
A data broker for data that the NSA legally can't obtain from the original source. When they ask the NSA if it obtained US Bank data, it says no (pretending it doesn't know the data it bought from this conduit company came from banks), when they ask them if they obtained telco data they again say no.
Likewise foreign partners like GCHQ, are spying on Brits via companies like BT & Vodafone and sending the data to the NSA. But suppose instead they simply sold data for some company to process, and that company happened to resell that data to some other company which then lands in the NSAs database.
Q. Did NSA get any data from Vodafone.
A. Not to my knowledge.... says the NSA man.
A million dollars worth of plausible deniability. Now that *does* seem a more plausible role for his new company and its what I suspect is behind it.
That's why you are part of the problem, you boot licking moron.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Go away NSA...
Sting calls it decades ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
America (US government) screwed America, Europe and the rest of the world. Not Snowdon. Ignorance isn't bliss.
Well, just like chemtrails didn't exist before radio was invented, ISIS didn't exist before Snowden leaked those documents and this government certainly seemed clueless about them until they beheaded a gold club and a few citizens.
Just because you don't like the view doesn't make it a troll.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Benjamin Franklin opened other colonist's mail for intelligence purposes in the Revolutionary War. George Washington ran a spy ring during and after the Revolutionary War that spied on other colonists.
It seems there is more to establishing and keeping the American Republic than you understand. Perhaps you just aren't capable. What a pity.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Whereas you'll die alone and afraid and loved by no-one, with Cheetohs grease on your lips and fingers.
(IOW, pretty much as you've lived your life.)
There is no enemy, since the US isn't in a state of war with anybody.
Get us a declaration of war as mandated by the Constitution, and then we'll start talking about an enemy.
Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
I refer you to Public Law 107-40. It is legally equivalent to a declaration of war. That is settled law.
Identifying the enemy is a trivial exercise left to the reader.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Chemtrails don't exist, period. IS does. Your point?
Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
Really that the Espionage Act is even on the books is a matter of great shame. It was invented to suppress pacifist groups. That Schneck vs. United States was unanimous in upholding this is the yet another indictment of the White Court (may the nine of them rot and burn in Hell).
Upton Sinclair, Ida Tarbel, Jack Anderson, Paul Anderson, Edward Snowden.
Just because he exposes a government and not a business, does not make him any less important. In years to come, students around the country will read about what he has done. Eventually his actions will be considered like some of the above.
They wouldn't be committing felonies as that would require a violation of law rather than violations of constitutional restrictions against government. The law, constitutional or not, allows the NSA to do what they are doing else a lowly court could shut it all down by a simple low level prosecutor bringing charges to a grand jury.
Which is why no one in Congress can be expected to cast the first stone at the NSA. Whether they are in a position to know of its effectiveness or not, they will shy away in mortal political terror of NSA producing clear evidence that mass surveillance has "kept us safe". Still waiting. Likewise, pure judicial challenges run into stone walls as courts circularly argue over jurisdiction.
Or in the case of Hepting v. AT&T the Ninth Circuit committed to a sorry-ass monkey fuck decision where the case was dismissed on the basis of a piece of legislation ('retroactively' granting telecom immunity) that was passed after the case was filed. Pause to reflect on that. Has there ever been a clearer example of dereliction of duty of the judicial branch? Or a clearer admission of guilt by the Government?
That is because the NSA was terrified of Hepting vs. AT&T, more scared than it had ever been. Think of this case as a Pandora's box for them --- in which dozens (if not hundreds) of civilian technicians who had been involved in constructing its backbone taps might be encouraged to come forward to add their own piece to a sketch of NSA's domestic spy apparatus. As they came forward you'd see a map of the USA with taps appearing all over, and that would dispel any rhetoric claiming they did not intend to tap America itself.
And besides --- my own speculation but borne out in several places --- I allege that Hepting vs. AT&T would also have exposed that some technicians building our taps were foreign nationals and foreign corporations under contract to NSA. Countries whose spies we have convicted. Strange bedfellows laid bare. Gathering conversations (not silly metadata) has been portrayed as a high cost of liberty, though in the wrong hands it will subvert liberty. Our challenge is to prove this on three fronts.
We must seek to de-fund the NSA by calling into question the track record of mass surveillance to counter threats as of this day --- today. I draw a line at today because they could be cooking up something for tomorrow...
We must de-construct and demonstrate the motive behind mass surveillance to conclude that its only purpose in the end is to gather blackmail and empower absolute rulers with the tools they need to subvert our system of Government. This is true even if those presently engaged in it have good intentions.
We must defame the NSA and what it has become, the people behind it, the Senators who support it because someone whispered something in their ear --- was it a secret of National Security or was it blackmail? There's the rub --- dismantle it.
And that Constitution thing. Thar be dragins.
<blink>down the rabbit hole</blink>
It isn't just a question of there being "enemies of the state," but rather there being enemies willing to kill in large numbers.
If the enemy doesn't get tired of attacking, should the US just stop defending and let people die? Or should the US just surrender, force people to convert to Islam, and institute Sharia?
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Let's apply that logic again.
You don't like agency X.
Agency X did a legal thing.
Ergo agency X did an illegal thing.
That's not right. You appear to be the one full of it.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
How very Kim Jong Un of you. Obviously, the civics classes didn't stick and you have no understanding of American values.
What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
That's great. We are not in a Revolutionary War right now.
Even if we were, that wouldn't make it right. Stop seemingly defending privacy violations.
There is no enemy, since the US isn't in a state of war with anybody.
I thought we were at war with Eastasia? Or was it Eurasia? I'm so confused.
By his own admission Snowden is a thief and liar. Whether he's also a traitor, well, I'll wait for sworn testimony at his trial, I try not to prejudge.
Snowden isn't some harmless guy "just doing his thing." He committed crimes that carry the death penalty. Snowden screwed America and its citizens, much of Europe, Canada, New Zealand, and Australia, even if you don't recognize it, or even cheer him for it.
he just publicly showed proof of how rotten government is in america and much of europe. it's those governments who screwed their citizens.
if you believe this deserves death penalty _for_the_messager_ then you are the traitor, but more than that you are a sick piece of shit.
sorry, europe calling. don't trivialize. us hate has way more serious roots, it isn't for what retarded psychos like this one you respond to may spew on internet. how do you know he is an us citizen at all? dipshits like this are everywhere.
Is that an admission of accomplice to murder?
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
The whole purpose of juries is to create the possibility of nullification. However, the government hates this limitation of its preferably unfettered powers and tries to prevent jurors being informed of their right to strike down unjust prosecution.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J...
http://reason.com/blog/2014/10...
Prove anything by multiplying Huge Number times Tiny Number
I thought freedom was more important than privacy.
Freedom is more important than safety. Privacy is part of freedom.
Furthermore, the government infringing upon your freedoms makes the government (supposedly by the people and for the people) your enemy, and morally, that's the worst result of all, even if the alternative is being destroyed.
Let's try that again, this time with reality.
NSA is forbidden from monitoring domestic persons in the EO 12333 that founded it.
Domestic warrantless spying is still further forbidden by FISA laws and the 4th Amendment.
Ergo cold fjord is still a goosestepping fool.
No, there is a conspiracy that defined chemtrails. That is not real. However, the definition of chemtrails meets the activities i described and they had actually happened.
The cloud seeding program we learned about in highschool- some 10-15 years before the term chemtrail was created or the conspiracy that surrounds it. The airforce tests were also a few years before and likely part of the reason the conspiracy was born. It happened after the first gulf war but before the ok city bombing. I was part of a group that collected soil samples accross the mid west from nation and state parks. It was a flame retardent foam with chemical identifyers- completely non hazzardous and supposedly biodegradable.. We filled a ville, put a power in it, capped it, some paper work and it was mailed off to a lab in the same box it came in.
I'm not even going to bother looking for a citation- i gave enough information that your google fingers should be able to find it. But note, i'm not saying it is still happening or there is any truth to the conspiracy or not. I didn't even pay attention to it until you brought it up.