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US Army May Relax Physical Requirements To Recruit Cyber Warriors

HughPickens.com writes Clifford Davis reports that only 30% of young people between the ages of 17 and 24 are qualified to become soldiers. This is primarily due to three issues: obesity or health problems; lack of a high school education; and criminal histories. While cognitive and moral disqualifications have held steady, weight issues account for 18% of disqualifications, and the number is rising steadily. It's projected to hit 25% by 2025. The current Army policy is that every recruit, whether enlisting for infantry or graphic design, has to meet the same physical requirements to join — but that requirement may be changing. "Today, we need cyber warriors, so we're starting to recruit for Army Cyber," says Major General Allen Batschelet. "One of the things we're considering is that your [mission] as a cyber warrior is different. Maybe you're not the Ranger who can do 100 pushups, 100 sit-ups and run the 2-mile inside of 10 minutes, but you can crack a data system of an enemy." "We're looking for America's best and brightest just like any Fortune 500 company out there," says Lt. Col. Sharlene Pigg. "We're looking for those men and women who excel in science, technology, engineering and math." Batschelet admits that a drastic change in physical requirements for recruits may be hard for some to swallow. "That's going to be an institutional, cultural change for us to be able to get our heads around that is kind of a different definition of quality," says Batschelet. "I would say it's a modernizing, or defining in a more precise way, what is considered quality for soldiers."

308 comments

  1. Good luck with that by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I left the DoD as a software developer largely because they couldn't get their heads out of their asses. The paperwork, mandatory training, and total risk aversion meant I developed code at maybe 25% of the speed that I did before, and after, in the private sector. And the stock options in the DoD were nothing to write home about.

    I really don't see how the DoD can win any cyber fight. It would take losing a ground war on U.S. soil for them to give up their worship of bureaucracy.

    1. Re:Good luck with that by EmeraldBot · · Score: 1

      I left the DoD as a software developer largely because they couldn't get their heads out of their asses. The paperwork, mandatory training, and total risk aversion meant I developed code at maybe 25% of the speed that I did before, and after, in the private sector. And the stock options in the DoD were nothing to write home about.

      I really don't see how the DoD can win any cyber fight. It would take losing a ground war on U.S. soil for them to give up their worship of bureaucracy.

      What do you mean by "risk aversion"? I'm genuinely curious.

      --
      "Set a man a fire, he'll be warm for the rest of the night. Set a man afire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life."
    2. Re:Good luck with that by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 2

      Do you think that they'd be able to settle for the "Buy it for 250% the cost of doing it in house from the contractor with the most congressmen" compromise if we lost a land war somewhere else?

    3. Re:Good luck with that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      I assume "Zero Tolerance" type environment. Anything bad on books puts serious issues on career advancement.

    4. Re:Good luck with that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Probably "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" taken to the extreme.

    5. Re:Good luck with that by ziggystarsky · · Score: 1

      Mandatory unit testing.

    6. Re:Good luck with that by khasim · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Not only that but if they change the physical requirements it's going to have a lot of repercussions.

      First off, Basic Training. Is there going to be a "cyber warrior only" camp for that?

      Secondly, promotions. Will the promotion points for Physical Training be altered for "cyber warriors"?

      Also, you have to pass Physical Training tests every year to stay in. Will the guy who cooks the food the "cyber warrior" eats be held to a higher physical standard than the "cyber warrior" is?

      I'm thinking that Lt. Col. Sharlene Pigg does not understand anything about morale or esprit de corps.

    7. Re:Good luck with that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your statement is funny. However; It is too true. Unit testing something that isn't allowed because it creates the ability to focus blame, even on the smallest of scales.

    8. Re:Good luck with that by Fire_Wraith · · Score: 0

      It's not just that. This would take an entire rethinking of the Army Culture, from the ground up. The Army has had non-combat MOSs for a long time, but physical fitness is a huge deal. It doesn't matter how good you are at your job - you could be the best IT admin in the world, but if you can't pass the APFT (Army Physical Fitness Test), you're a sh*tbag. Even worse, if you fail to meet height/weight standards (or the body fat composition 'tape test' that follows), you're even worse of a sh*tbag, and it doesn't matter that you can max your APFT. At this point the only thing your command and your senior NCOs care about is this - not getting the mission done, not even in a war zone. They're going to make your life miserable trying to force you to meet the standards, and you can forget about having a good OER/NCOER, let alone awards or promotions. And it's not as if this isn't for good reason either - the Army learned some hard lessons in the Korean war with out of shape soldiers; and if anything, the recent wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have further blurred the lines are between combat and non-combat MOS's. If anything, they'll probably become ever more reliant on contractors, with a handful of uniformed soldiers to act as supervision, and to press the actual "go" button, since only the soldiers have actual Title 10 authority.

    9. Re:Good luck with that by Rich0 · · Score: 2

      And it's not as if this isn't for good reason either - the Army learned some hard lessons in the Korean war with out of shape soldiers; and if anything, the recent wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have further blurred the lines are between combat and non-combat MOS's.

      I can buy that if you're talking about somebody who is in a supply train which is vulnerable to attack.

      On the other hand, the biggest hazard facing a cyber warrior is likely to be the morning commute.

    10. Re:Good luck with that by Kjella · · Score: 5, Informative

      What do you mean by "risk aversion"? I'm genuinely curious.

      I can't speak for the grandparent but generally in de facto non-profit monopolies - there's nobody else competing to be the US army for example - there's very little risk in not pushing boundaries. Projects might run over time and over budget but at the end of the day the politicians have to fund the army next year too and you don't get the fat bonuses like when your software makes money for the company. Obvious flops on the other hand might require scapegoats and if you make your superiors look bad, well they're likely to be a step or two up in seniority for the rest of your career in the same "company". That will permeate the entire environment making any kind of change hard, nobody wants to be the one signing off on anything without a drawn out change process.

      Here in Norway the craziest example at the moment is the police. In 2005 our politicians made fairly big changes to the penal code, which would go into effect when the police systems were able to handle it. Well, now it's 2014 and it's still not in effect. But what can you do, not fund the police? No matter how much the schedules slip and it goes over budget we have to keep throwing money at them. If they were a commercial company they'd be out of business long ago. Sometimes I wonder if it would be cheaper if we awarded two companies the contract to write the same module with a bonus to the winner, just to get the competition.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    11. Re: Good luck with that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's a Police Academy style screwball comedy movie to be made with this situation, starring Jack Black.

    12. Re:Good luck with that by EmeraldBot · · Score: 1

      What do you mean by "risk aversion"? I'm genuinely curious.

      I can't speak for the grandparent but generally in de facto non-profit monopolies - there's nobody else competing to be the US army for example - there's very little risk in not pushing boundaries. Projects might run over time and over budget but at the end of the day the politicians have to fund the army next year too and you don't get the fat bonuses like when your software makes money for the company. Obvious flops on the other hand might require scapegoats and if you make your superiors look bad, well they're likely to be a step or two up in seniority for the rest of your career in the same "company". That will permeate the entire environment making any kind of change hard, nobody wants to be the one signing off on anything without a drawn out change process.

      Here in Norway the craziest example at the moment is the police. In 2005 our politicians made fairly big changes to the penal code, which would go into effect when the police systems were able to handle it. Well, now it's 2014 and it's still not in effect. But what can you do, not fund the police? No matter how much the schedules slip and it goes over budget we have to keep throwing money at them. If they were a commercial company they'd be out of business long ago. Sometimes I wonder if it would be cheaper if we awarded two companies the contract to write the same module with a bonus to the winner, just to get the competition.

      That's an interesting idea! I do think that here in the United States, our government's a little bit too business friendly, but using two companies would be a good way to pit competition to (hopefully) produce a better result. Or maybe not, what do I know :P I certainly think it's an idea worth trying, though.

      --
      "Set a man a fire, he'll be warm for the rest of the night. Set a man afire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life."
    13. Re:Good luck with that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      get our heads around that is kind of a different definition of quality," says Batschelet

      If Batshit gets his head out of his ass and starts using idioms properly, he might get his arms around it. Just not fat people.

    14. Re:Good luck with that by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm thinking that Lt. Col. Sharlene Pigg does not understand anything about morale or esprit de corps.

      Arguably, the bigger problem is that the concept of 'cyber warrior' is an iffy fit for the army at best; and just plain incoherent nonsense at worst.

      Obviously, now that electronic systems are valuable enough to be worth attacking, defending, and spying on, it's perfectly plausible that somebody is going to end up doing that job; but that's quite different than inferring the existence of 'cyber warriors', much less ones sufficiently closely analogous to conventional warriors that the army would be a logical outfit to have some(not that the Air Force, which seems to be the branch making the most noise about it, is an obviously better fit). Whatever Tron might have told you, 'cyber war' isn't going to be physical combat except more neon...

      If the army is serious about a mandate broad enough that 'cyber warrior' actually fits, they are going to have to suck it up and, yes, accept that their current arrangements for training, evaluation, promotion, etc. include elements that are either supported by outdated assumptions or mere nostalgia.

      If they aren't, they should get over whatever territorial pissing contest and/or painful misunderstanding of 'cyber war' has them trying to search for a supply of cutting edge IT and security people who are willing to put up with a system bent on evaluating their ability to pick up a rifle when necessary and either contract it or develop a non-dysfunctional relationship with an agency actually suited to the task(ostensibly the NSA, if somebody could pry them away from our email for a few minutes).

      They are just going to have to choose: if they want to have one-size-fits-all processes(whether justified by the theory that all their people might actually need combat skills, or by cultural and institutional cohesion considerations), then they just aren't going to get to do everything, at least not well. If they want to do a wide variety of fairly disparate things, they just don't get to keep all their existing practices, at least not well(the only thing that would depress enthusiasts of boot camp and physical training more than just exempting some people from it entirely would be watering the requirements down enough that any pudgy keyboard jockey would be minimally inconvenienced by meeting them...)

    15. Re:Good luck with that by maz2331 · · Score: 1

      Why not simply hire them as civilian employees?

    16. Re:Good luck with that by Fire_Wraith · · Score: 0

      Note that I'm not saying I agree with it, merely pointing out how it presently stands (or stood a few years back), and admittedly from an anecdotal standpoint, but I strongly suspect that what I and others I spoke with observed was roughly accurate. You make good points though, and if I were to suggest how I think things ought to be, that's exactly what I'd do. Establish physical fitness requirements based on your job, and make those unisex (and possibly even age neutral). That way everyone doing the job can meet the physical requirements expected for that job, whether they're male or female. Presently, it's one size fits all, whether you're front line infantry, or a clerk at the Pentagon, and the only differences are your gender and your age.

    17. Re: Good luck with that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They already made that movie. It was called Stripes .

    18. Re:Good luck with that by Cederic · · Score: 2

      the only differences are your gender and your age.

      Which is clearly discriminatory.

      Why should I, as a fat unfit man, have to attain a higher standard of fitness than a fat unfit woman. Either we can both run the same distance and lift the same weights or we can't fulfil the same duties.

      Similarly age, why should I as an old person be allowed to damage the effectiveness of the regiment and slow down the youngsters?

    19. Re:Good luck with that by AHuxley · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The US has a few issues with civilian employees and its deeper .mil networks.
      In the past 10 or so years the numbers of people in the US with some form of security clearance has expanded.
      In the wild rush to get new language skills, cloud computing, reduce the walls between different areas of the mil and gov networks and other ideas a lot of staff where hired.
      Staff with older security clearance paper work that was updated by a contractor or boss or firm, security clearance options given to staff who might be kind of dual citizens, new citizens or have no real connection with the USA.
      Everything they see is sent back to their real country while been advanced deeper into cleared US projects over many years..
      Thats 10 plus years of random strangers with rapid digital background work providing perfect paper work and clearances wondering around the contractor and private sector getting into any US mil work offered. Great for the boss, great for the investors, great for no bid contracts.
      Some in the US mil seem to understand that this rapid uptake of random new people is not good long term and needs to be understood and story of life background work done each new and existing staff member.
      Civilian employees or gov or mil all have to be cleared. What the US hired over the past 10 years was more a language and skill set hunt.
      A lot of interesting people now have jobs for life, hidden faiths, hidden loyalties but the US gov has no real idea who they are, why their private sector boss cleared them or if any or some digital database work was really done on them. That is interesting over the productive life, many result and academic advancements.
      Who really knows where a lot of the new gov cleared staff will end up in 30 years?
      Smart people in the US gov have seen all this before in other nations and over history. A flood of new staff without deep background work allows a lot of people to get protected deep penetration agents in for decades and over many different projects.
      A lot got in, a few will be found decades later.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    20. Re: Good luck with that by fyngyrz · · Score: 1, Troll

      The Obama haters are decidedly more butt-hurt, whiny, and ignorant of actual data than the Bush haters that preceded them.

      Funny how that goes. :)

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    21. Re:Good luck with that by JerryLove · · Score: 1

      I'm thinking that Lt. Col. Sharlene Pigg does not understand anything about morale or esprit de corps.

      Or, and bear with me on this: perhaps the desire to win a cyber-war is the paramount priority over and above ideal morale conditions.

      Of course it's also possible they have a plan to accomplish both.

    22. Re:Good luck with that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      By "risk aversion" the GP is probably referring to strict adherence to information security policies without analyzing and managing risk. It's easier to say no and cite policy than to weigh risk and benefit. Even if the cited policy doesn't really apply.
      Some risk is acceptable and some introduced risk can be mitigated elsewhere. But when low level security minions are left to make decisions, it's rarely about risk as often as it is about rules. It's true that there is an exception to every rule, even in DoD's secure environments.

    23. Re:Good luck with that by Krishnoid · · Score: 1

      First off, Basic Training. Is there going to be a "cyber warrior only" camp for that?

      Possibly. But we should absolutely get an animated series about it.

    24. Re:Good luck with that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm thinking that Lt. Col. Sharlene Pigg does not understand anything about morale or esprit de corps.

      Pigg said nothing controversial. All the quotes your disagreeing with come from Major General Allen Batschelet.

      I suppose it's natural to target personal attacks at the lower ranking woman. You're forgiven.

    25. Re:Good luck with that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds like a reheating of the "Purple Suits" concept during the '70s. Somebody got the bright idea to roll all the intelligence portions of the Armed Services together - and wear purple uniforms - I guess. Pretty much stillborn. In our group (Navy) even the Marine intelligence types had to play Marine a fair bit, in addition to their regular watch schedule (2-2-2-80 or 8-on-8-off when at sea). Even with the draft, the "Old Navy" guys found that spooks were about as easy to herd and discipline as cats. Good luck maintaining any kind of discipline, productivity or morale among either the (lol) cyber-warriors and the poverty-draft bullet sponges.

    26. Re:Good luck with that by starless · · Score: 1

      Will the promotion points for Physical Training be altered for "cyber warriors"?

      I think they just change the spelling slightly, and make it promotion points for Physics Training...

    27. Re:Good luck with that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Risk aversion to the point of refusing to accredit a system because it's not fully configured to the DISA Secure Technical Implementation Guide (STIG), and failing to apply common sense. A perfect example is refusing to accredit a system because it didn't have the screensaver timeout set to 15-minutes ... on a system that lives in a secure area behind an alarmed locked door. Locking down systems to the point that they are unusable for actual R&D, and a IT procurement process that takes 2 weeks and 16-manhours of labor to purchase something under $2500. Yes, that pretty much doubles the cost of anything we buy and causes lots of schedule delays.

    28. Re:Good luck with that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      US Military Basic Pay Scale

      That explains it all. Anyone with the intellect to do cyber warfare can make a lot more money in the private sector (and without all the gung-ho macho bullshit).

      E1 2 years pay = 1531.50 per month x 12 = $18,378/year, though this doesn't count the benefits (shitty barracks, shitty food, and medical/dental/vision health care... also a reasonable retirement if you stay in and advance for 20 years).

    29. Re:Good luck with that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't really believe what you say. Clearances are handled by independent investigators, not rubber stamped by the people who need code written.

      Non US citizens don't get clearances.

    30. Re:Good luck with that by afxgrin · · Score: 1

      They want people who are willing to kill by hacking a computer. Also - Snowden.

    31. Re:Good luck with that by Cyberdyne · · Score: 2

      Not only that but if they change the physical requirements it's going to have a lot of repercussions.

      First off, Basic Training. Is there going to be a "cyber warrior only" camp for that?

      Secondly, promotions. Will the promotion points for Physical Training be altered for "cyber warriors"?

      Also, you have to pass Physical Training tests every year to stay in. Will the guy who cooks the food the "cyber warrior" eats be held to a higher physical standard than the "cyber warrior" is?

      I'm thinking that Lt. Col. Sharlene Pigg does not understand anything about morale or esprit de corps.

      Should the cook be held to "physical standards" which aren't relevant to the actual job either? Outside movies like Under Siege, shooting at people really isn't part of the chef's job either. (As an Air Force cadet, I was pretty good at Escape & Evasion - and if I'd gone on to be an actual fighter pilot, that could well have been a vital skill if shot down over enemy territory. As a drone pilot, eight time zones from the action where the biggest threat is road rage on the daily commute? Not a chance.)

      Supposing Stephen Hawking were a computing genius, rather than a physicist. Does it really make sense to anyone to reject his brilliant contribution, just because he can't do pushups? Isn't it a better army if it includes that talent?

    32. Re:Good luck with that by SylvesterTheCat · · Score: 1

      A lot of interesting people now have jobs for life, hidden faiths, hidden loyalties but the US gov has no real idea who they are, why their private sector boss cleared them or if any or some digital database work was really done on them. That is interesting over the productive life, many result and academic advancements.

      I don't really believe what you say. Clearances are handled by independent investigators, not rubber stamped by the people who need code written.

      Non US citizens don't get clearances.

      Exactly. The GP seems to have little understanding of how contracting works. I've worked in it from both the government's and the contractor's perspective. I also found the GP's comment to be a series of incoherent, rambling thoughts independent of their errors.

    33. Re:Good luck with that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are so many errors here it's hard to know where to start other than to say that you're sadly mistaken about much of what you've written.

    34. Re:Good luck with that by nabsltd · · Score: 1

      On the other hand, the biggest hazard facing a cyber warrior is likely to be the morning commute.

      There are a lot of computer attacks that must be done from inside a network, either because it isn't connected to anything else or because firewalls are good enough to stop outside attacks. This might require being on the ground somewhere that being shot at is possible.

      The solution is to relax the physical requirements, not toss them out completely. The military could allow someone to join who doesn't meet standards, but every year after that, they would have to get closer to the standard, and maybe even eventually meet the same ones as every other soldier.

    35. Re:Good luck with that by mattr · · Score: 1

      Battle Programmer Shirase (BPS)
      might be more realistic.
      It might draw more talent? :/

    36. Re: Good luck with that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://www.dss.mil/isp/international/laa.html

    37. Re:Good luck with that by jjbenz · · Score: 1

      Yeah, they would do better to pay them under a civilian pay scale. The barracks I stayed in where actually pretty nice, and the food at the mess hall was for the most part pretty good.

    38. Re:Good luck with that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Army likes to use cute phrases like "train to fight" but somehow physical training is pushups, situps, and a 2 mile run with no encumberances. What combat situations do those exercises apply to? Zero. They're just easy to measure. Change the run to a 50 m rush with 60-70 pounds of gear/armor and that would be a little more realistic.

      How do you train to fight for a cyberwarrior? Pushups, situps, and a 2 mile run? I think what we have here is a throwback to cannon fodder tactics for pre-Korean War so that anyone can become a rifleman in a pinch.

    39. Re:Good luck with that by Whorhay · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I always thought it was funny that my being fat, while still able to beat the other PT standards, was a big enough deal to possibly get an Admin discharge. Meanwhile so long as you could shoot something like 28% with the M16A2 everything was honky dorry. I qualified expert every damn time I went to the range and when someone actually challeneged me I shot 98% in a timed test, with one misfire and two stoppages. In an organization where shooting at other people is a real possibility, the only reward for being a good marksman is a ribbon for bragging rights.

    40. Re:Good luck with that by Hodr · · Score: 2

      All good points, but the fact is that we already treat people differently based on their gender. I.E. you must run this fast, for this long, to be an effective soldier, unless you are female, then you can be slower and quit sooner. The answer is that we don't put women into the positions that are too physically demanding for them. This is the same concept, if you happen to have an MOS that doesn't require you to be physically active, then as along as you can complete your mission you should be fine.

      And why not separate camps for cyber warriors? If that is actually the term, then maybe they should have a cyber camp and a cyber uniform too. If they dress in business casual and work in offices then they would look just like the contractors they are meant to replace.

    41. Re:Good luck with that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I left the DoD as a software developer largely because they couldn't get their heads out of their asses. The paperwork, mandatory training, and total risk aversion meant I developed code at maybe 25% of the speed that I did before, and after, in the private sector. And the stock options in the DoD were nothing to write home about.

      I really don't see how the DoD can win any cyber fight. It would take losing a ground war on U.S. soil for them to give up their worship of bureaucracy.

      What do you mean by "risk aversion"? I'm genuinely curious.

      "There's so much involved in making sure that nuclear warhead only goes off when it's supposed to... couldn't we just skip all that risk aversion and paperwork stuff?" :-P

    42. Re:Good luck with that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just received 3 Dell tablets we started to purchase 18 months ago. For the low - low price of $4K each, after all the mandatory extra's were included (Base MSRP ~ $600).

    43. Re:Good luck with that by jeffmeden · · Score: 1

      Sometimes I wonder if it would be cheaper if we awarded two companies the contract to write the same module with a bonus to the winner, just to get the competition.

      See all the money that was thrown at the Joint Strike Fighter "competition" for a good example of how even a simple idea like that can end up completely FUBAR at the hands of the DoD.

    44. Re:Good luck with that by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      I assume "Zero Tolerance" type environment.

      When I was in the military (twenty years ago) they used annual "fitness reports" that had a range of ratings: outstanding, excellent, above average, average, below average, and unsatisfactory. 90% of fitness reports were "outstanding". An "excellent" report was considered a black mark, and an "above average" was a career ender. So the best way to succeed is to keep your head down, don't rock the boat, and blend in with the 90%. There is NO reason to take a risk, or innovate, since failure can end your career, while success will not make you stand out from the other 90%, since they are all at the top together. The military's officer corps is the biggest group of "yes men" and bureaucratic rule followers I have ever encountered.

    45. Re:Good luck with that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sometimes the morning commute is in Kabul.

    46. Re:Good luck with that by Lord+Lemur · · Score: 1

      There are other benefits, and I don't think I ever ment an enlisted Communications troop then spent a day as an E1 or E2 unless they got in trouble.

    47. Re:Good luck with that by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Sometimes the morning commute is in Kabul.

      Sure, and for somebody who is forward-deployed the physical standards make a lot more sense, along with the rest of basic training, weapons proficiency, etc.

      Somebody else pointed out that they really should tailor the requirements to the job, and not to the person. If the job required being able to run a mile in n minutes, then make those the requirements, and don't relax them for different genders, age, etc. If the job doesn't require that, then don't require it.

      I imagine that you'd want some groups that are purely domestic-based, and you might want other "special operations" cyber warfare groups that are actually designed to be deployable. That shouldn't be done just so that the general can admire his tent full of guys with laptops - it should be done because the mission requires it (maybe the enemy is jamming satellite communications so nobody can talk to the USA and you need guys to mount "cyber attacks" locally. That certainly doesn't describe any situation the US has been in recently, but...

    48. Re:Good luck with that by Christopher_T. · · Score: 1

      > The US government is not monolithic, especially on it's policy stances, procedures and especially agency or department culture. You also have the problem of turf fights. The military has conflicting mandates. They are supposed to win wars. They are also supposed to avoid enviromental damage when training, hence the move to steel rather than lead bullets (for fear of lead poisoning) and the banning or curtailing of testing sonar systems (for fear of messing up dolphin and whale hearing). Also in the military, there has been such a push for zero-tolerance of any failure of subordinates that the officers are taking over functions traditionally (and arguably) best left to the chie's and sergeants.

    49. Re:Good luck with that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I kinda agree. Moving the goalposts based on task makes sense, but moving them because of whatever random quality the human has?

      Fire departments in particular strike me as weird. The requirements of a fire don't care who you are. The requirements demanded by a burning building are indifferent to your gender. By all means, give "I am Helga. Twendy year experienz fire chief." a helmet before you give one to Rookie Joe who needs a lever and fulcrum to move a fallen beam because he's been on whatever is this year's trendy diet.

    50. Re:Good luck with that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Incremental requirements might be smart. Probably want to add incentive to the qualification, rather than threaten with reprimand or ejection, seeing as retention is similar to the problem we have in the first place.

    51. Re:Good luck with that by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      The job of the cook isn't necessarily just to prepare food. Since cooks will be close to the front lines, they might well be caught up in the fighting. This attitude proved useful to the Marines on Guadalcanal in WWII. Cyberwarriors won't be in danger, in general.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    52. Re:Good luck with that by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      On the other hand, the biggest hazard facing a cyber warrior is likely to be the morning commute.

      There are a lot of computer attacks that must be done from inside a network, either because it isn't connected to anything else or because firewalls are good enough to stop outside attacks. This might require being on the ground somewhere that being shot at is possible.

      The solution is to relax the physical requirements, not toss them out completely. The military could allow someone to join who doesn't meet standards, but every year after that, they would have to get closer to the standard, and maybe even eventually meet the same ones as every other soldier.

      It would make more sense to have different divisions/etc for different purposes. You can't pilot a fighter jet safely in combat without excellent vision, but that doesn't mean that you can't refuel one without excellent vision, or plan a mission back at the Pentagon, or maybe even ferry one across the ocean. The solution to that isn't to insist that air force members steadily improve their vision either. You just don't let people without good vision become combat fighter pilots.

      By all means have squads that are intended for infiltration, and they should have strict requirements, of which fitness is just one. The guys who set up their laptops don't need to meet the same requirements, and they're probably even more important to the mission since I doubt that the infiltrators are going to write their software from scratch while in the middle of an enemy facility. They may very well have to improvise, but if they don't have the right equipment they'll do as well as a special forces soldier with a gun that doesn't work.

    53. Re: Good luck with that by Talderas · · Score: 1

      Doesn't feature Jack Black, however if you us John Candy as a stand in for Jack Black it works.

      --
      "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
  2. What a great idea! by EmeraldBot · · Score: 1

    ...three issues: obesity or health problems; lack of a high school education; and criminal histories.

    Yes, let's put people with repeated criminal offenses in positions of great power! It's not like they'd ever abuse it, would they?

    --
    "Set a man a fire, he'll be warm for the rest of the night. Set a man afire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life."
    1. Re:What a great idea! by istartedi · · Score: 3, Informative

      I think "criminal histories" in this case is probably just a code-phrase for "smoked weed".

      --
      For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
    2. Re:What a great idea! by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 1

      Yes, let's put people with repeated criminal offenses in positions of great power! It's not like they'd ever abuse it, would they?

      So how well are the squeaky-clean hiring standards for the NSA, CIA, FBI, and IRS working for us?

    3. Re:What a great idea! by bjwest · · Score: 2

      Did you read past the first sentence in the summery? They're talking about relaxing the physical requirements. High school education and criminal histories will still considered as they are now. Hell, that was made clear in the second sentence.

      --

      --- Keep the choice with the user..
    4. Re:What a great idea! by Fire_Wraith · · Score: 1

      None of that would disqualify you, unless you had a conviction. In that case depending on what it was, you might be able to secure a waiver. (This was a lot easier to do when they were having trouble meeting recruiting goals during the Iraq war). You'd need to disclose it for any Security Clearance, which any sort of 'Cyber' MOS will undoubtedly require, but all they care about there is that you were honest and can't be blackmailed about it, and that you aren't still using weed/etc.

    5. Re:What a great idea! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think "criminal histories" in this case is probably just a code-phrase for "smoked weed".

      What I talked to a recruiter, one of the questions was about recreational drug use. His response to my answer was: "If anyone asks you that question again, say No". They understand the realities of society today.

    6. Re:What a great idea! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      None of that would disqualify you, unless you had a conviction.

      Murder and rape does not disqualify either, unless you had a conviction. Same goes for everything. Don't get caught, no consequences. The military is recruiting from the same pool as CEOs: guaranteed sociopaths.

    7. Re:What a great idea! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      High school education and criminal histories will still considered as they are now.

      Doesn't do much good, since a lot of products of the public (and private) education system are just rote memorization drones. People need to stop putting so much faith in pieces of paper and give other people a chance.

    8. Re:What a great idea! by The+Ickle+Jones · · Score: 1

      Don't get caught, no consequences.

      What are they supposed to do, disqualify everyone merely because they might have committed some crime (even though most people don't commit any serious crimes)? Not going with that little strategy doesn't seem like it would do a very good job of guaranteeing sociopaths.

    9. Re:What a great idea! by darkain · · Score: 1

      "since a lot of products of the public (and private) education system are just rote memorization drones"

      I take it you're not all that familiar with military training then, are you?

    10. Re:What a great idea! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If I were guessing, the reason they are looking at drugs so closely is because of blackmail. If someone is addicted to something [1], then it can be used against them.

      [1]: And yes, unlike the guys with the munchies will deny, pot is addictive... er, "habit forming" like cigarettes. I know people who were the top devs in the company I work at have their pot habit drive them into the ground, where they were too baked to even make a basic deadline.

    11. Re:What a great idea! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, let's put people with repeated criminal offenses in positions of great power! It's not like they'd ever abuse it, would they?

      Its not a position of great power. What exactly do you think a cyber-warrior is?
      Do you think that all those Russians that showed up and posted in every little forum on the internet during the Ukraine incident were civilians?
      If you reuse posts with minimal change you can probably cram out over a hundred posts in a working day, it's a very efficient way to push propaganda.

      In fact, to be ably to bullshit that much without ever contemplating about the moral implications you probably have to be the kind of psychopath that you would expect of a person with a criminal history.

      The question is, does cold fjord have a criminal history or has the policy for cyber-warriors not been relaxed yet?

    12. Re:What a great idea! by The+Ickle+Jones · · Score: 1

      Nice anecdotal evidence.

    13. Re:What a great idea! by The+Ickle+Jones · · Score: 1

      Of course, just about anything can be addictive. It largely depends on the person.

    14. Re:What a great idea! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And you would probably be right. My ticket for possession of 0.5g of weed 7 years prior to the date I was looking to enlist limited my choice of job to tank crew, bridge crew, infantry, or combat medic. This, despite a near perfect ASFAB as well as good DLAB (linguistics test), which qualified me for just about any enlisted job in the Army. But no, that half gram of pot way back when was apparently a national security issue. I said no thanks.

    15. Re:What a great idea! by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

      Perhaps the Army will use the same contractor for the vetting process as they did with Snowden and perhaps the Army will allow Lady Gaga DVDs as it did with Manning and stuff.

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    16. Re:What a great idea! by ArcadeNut · · Score: 1

      Yes, let's put people with repeated criminal offenses in positions of great power! It's not like they'd ever abuse it, would they?

      Well, vote them out next time...

      Ohhhhhhhhhhhh... sorry, thought you were talking about the OTHER criminals...

      --
      Visit the Arcade Restoration Workshop @ http://www.arcaderestoration.com
    17. Re:What a great idea! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's rather insulting. Are you saying the military doesn't value intelligence at all?

    18. Re:What a great idea! by stephanruby · · Score: 4, Informative

      I think "criminal histories" in this case is probably just a code-phrase for "smoked weed".

      Lt. Col. Sharlene Pigg makes it sound like the military is relaxing its recruiting standards over criminal records because it needs "hackers".

      But the truth of the matter is, the military has already relaxed its recruiting standards over criminal records. It did it for Vietnam and Korea when nobody else wanted to go. And it did it again ever since the war in Iraq got started, even formerly convicted felons have been able to get in (not just former weed smokers).

      I'd say don't believe the hype regarding their need for hackers. The military is notoriously bad at matching recruits with jobs according to their existing technical abilities. If you want to do cyber warfare, get yourself a bachelor of art in something, anything, so that you get yourself recruited as an officer at the very least, to increase your chances -- not guarantee them mind you. If you enter the military without a degree because you like programming, or worse because you like playing video games, expect to be used as IED fodder in the Middle East, for the jobs that no one else wants to do.

    19. Re:What a great idea! by SylvesterTheCat · · Score: 1

      Any large organization is always going to have a certain percentage of people who fail to meet and live up to that organization's standards.

    20. Re:What a great idea! by SylvesterTheCat · · Score: 5, Interesting

      How long ago was that?

      Replying with "no" is an option.

      My understanding when I enlisted (over 20 years ago) and through now has been, that an admission of usage was itself not an issue, if there was no longer any current usage and drug test results were negative. One of the primary issues (maybe the only?) of concern was the ability of someone to blackmail the service member for (classified) information by threatening to make drug usage known to the chain of command. If the service member admits to usage prior to enlistment / contracting, there is no ability to blackmail.

      It is possibly that has changed over the years. I can also see that if there is no arrest record or nobody to dime you out, answering "no" is the simplest answer.

    21. Re:What a great idea! by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, it's sometimes the people who most enthusiastically live up to the organization's standards that you have to watch out for.

    22. Re:What a great idea! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the military cant even *identify* intelligence, let alone value it. its a promotion machine, and soldiers/commanders get shuffled around at the whim of whatever airhead is above them. it is FUCKED, and thats why civilians managers learn quickly that they should not rely on soldiers, even the great ones, for any important work.

    23. Re:What a great idea! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      And yes, unlike the guys with the munchies will deny, pot is addictive... er, "habit forming" like cigarettes.

      As an ex-smoker, ex-toker, ex-drinker and ex-cokehead, I believe I am qualified to say that you're full of shit.

      Quitting dope was simply a matter of getting tired of dry-mouth and paranoia, and saying, 'fuck that, I've had enough.' Quitting coke was a similar matter. Quitting alcohol involved getting sick for a few days and working hard to readjust my life so that bars didn't feature at the end of every working day. Quitting cigarettes left me feeling like shit for a month, half-mad with irrational rage for a week of that, and it only happened because my partner basically told me she was leaving me if I didn't quit, because she wasn't willing to let the children see me die an early death. Seven months later, I still pine for a cigarette every single day.

      Dope, tobacco and alcohol are each very, very different. Tobacco is the most addictive of all the addictive substances I've ever tried. Dope doesn't merit the word.

    24. Re:What a great idea! by antifoidulus · · Score: 1

      My former boss smoked weed(at Microsoft of all places) and basically had to write an essay when she applied for her clearance that basically said, "Weed is bad, I won't smoke weed anymore". Sort of a 3rd-grade level punishment but

    25. Re:What a great idea! by SylvesterTheCat · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, it's sometimes the people who most enthusiastically live up to the organization's standards that you have to watch out for.

      I don't understand that how that could be an issue unless the organization's standards are themselves immoral or illegal.

      Please explain.

    26. Re:What a great idea! by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 1

      That's the most messed up thing I've read in a long time.

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    27. Re:What a great idea! by budgenator · · Score: 1

      I used to get hit with "random" urinalaysis something like every other month for 3 years straight before they either got the idea I don't do that anymore, or who ever was trying to get me transfered.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    28. Re:What a great idea! by budgenator · · Score: 1

      It proves your able to play the game when you decide to play the game, very important in the military.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    29. Re:What a great idea! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The posturing itself isn't the problem, especially if it involves meeting quotas. But you might want to watch people who "enthusiastically" prioritize metrics and appearances over, y'know, the real world.

    30. Re:What a great idea! by RyoShin · · Score: 1

      I enlisted in late 2009, right before the Army significantly raised the enlistment requirements, and before going in for the pre-enlistment stuff (urinalysis, medical check, etc.) my recruiter had myself and others going to enlist fill out a yes/no questionnaire. After that they took us into the office, closed the door, and told us that if we didn't answer "No" to every one of those questions (which included prior drug use) we would be turned away from the military.[1] So I was a good little lemming, did so, and went to Basic four months later.[2] While I never thought to poll my fellow enlisted, I would not be surprised if this was a common thing.

      [1] And then said that he would outright deny ever saying that if we told anyone. In hindsight, this should have been a red flag to me.
      [2] I have no prior drug use, but I did answer yes to things on the recruiter's questionnaire, like if I had seasonal allergies

  3. That'll do by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "That'll do." -Lt. Col. Pigg

    1. Re:That'll do by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Anyone else notice that a Pigg wants more lardasses in the Army?

    2. Re:That'll do by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I think you meant:

      "That'll do, Lt. Col. Pigg. That'll do." -Brig. Gen. A. Hoggett

  4. Hmmm. by o_ferguson · · Score: 1

    I wonder if they'll be as strict as the FBI about not hiring people who've "pirated" music or TV shows.

    --
    - In Soviet Korea, only old people loose all their bases to Natalie Portman's petrified hot grits overlords.
  5. FUBAR Deluxe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Imagine a "cyberwarrior" (whatever the FUCK that is), who is having trouble with military discipline. The chain of command then starts fucking with him. Sooner or later, he does something really stupid. Then the bastards send him to a line unit. HOW THE FUCK is that motherfucker going to cope there?

    This is some seriously fucked up shit.

    1. Re:FUBAR Deluxe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The cyberwarrior is deployed with-in bullet and shrapnel-proof, fully connected storage tanks during combat operations. They are medically induced to a novel trans state, maximizing their mental capacity while they float in the medicated saline solution, while floating with automatically deployed parachute behind the enemy lines. Failure to comply is simply fixed with a dosage adjustment.

    2. Re:FUBAR Deluxe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      These so called cyber warriors are too intelligent, too thinking, to be soldiers. The army needs near mindless animals in order to fulfill .issions. I'm sorry, but that's what armys and police need.

    3. Re:FUBAR Deluxe by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Then the bastards send him to a line unit. HOW THE FUCK is that motherfucker going to cope there?

      They're not going to send him to a line unit unless they need cannon fodder, and then he'll get what he deserves. They'll just give him a DD and send him back to bumfuck, boringville.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    4. Re:FUBAR Deluxe by Huge_UID · · Score: 2

      I'm sorry, I'm not quite sure I know where you stand. It might help if you would use some more "fuck"s to convey your thoughts.

    5. Re:FUBAR Deluxe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They're not going to send him to a line unit unless they need cannon fodder, and then he'll get what he deserves.

      A programmer or IT guy, being a programmer or an IT guy in the only way they can be competent deserves death in your opinion? What a sick fuck you are.

    6. Re:FUBAR Deluxe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yeah, this is a really stupid idea. Congress needs to step up and create a digital military organization with its own rules and hierarchy to act alongside the Army, Navy, Marine Corps, Air Force, and Coast Guard. Yes, the Army could have some cyberwarriors too for when needed, just like all the branches have planes and boats even if that's not their focus, but trying to wedge this shift in warfare into the Army is asinine, and I would bet it's just that they want to get there first so that they get all the funding for it in the future.

    7. Re:FUBAR Deluxe by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      A programmer or IT guy, being a programmer or an IT guy in the only way they can be competent deserves death in your opinion?

      No. Anyone who signs up for a paycheck for being a murderer (or murderer support staff) does that. We all die, but those who decide to kill people for money actually deserve it. The people who turn murder into a vocation are the sick fucks. And if you go into IT for the military, your job one is murder, or murder support.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    8. Re:FUBAR Deluxe by whodunit · · Score: 2

      The United States Army does not punish people by sending them to the "Russian Front." Nor do they have Commisars, nor do they machine-gun anyone trying to retreat. This is nonsense.

      There are no shortage of desk jobs in the US military. For every fighting man in the field there are three forklift drivers involved in moving the tons of supplies he consumes, and a desk jockey to do the paperwork for each.

      We ar fighting in an age where entire warships can be disabled by computer failures and many enemies are slain by remote controlled drones. We can no longer afford to shut our best and brightest out of the military based on rumors, fear-mongering, pig-headed tradition or machismo.

    9. Re:FUBAR Deluxe by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      line unit? as if. doesn't work like the eastern front shit in ww2.

      now, I got a perfectly good response to this, just draft them from google, ms etc. oh what do you mean that you need cyber warriors for the army BUT YOU AREN'T IN WAR?

      is cyber warriors in this context also the push button drone guys? for that you don't need physical attributes, just the attribute to press a button on dubious justifications(remember, you're not in an actual war with any state), sometimes two times.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    10. Re:FUBAR Deluxe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yup, no-one in the military has ever done anything good. There has never been a case of soldiers defending the weaker from the stronger. Nor have they ever defended their own country and civilians from external aggression. All soldiers are murderers and that's all they have ever wanted to be.

    11. Re:FUBAR Deluxe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I imagine there would be a special ranking system, which does in the military determine what duties a person can be assigned to.

    12. Re:FUBAR Deluxe by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      The math is simple. At 2 miles per hour, it takes a fat programmer 1 hour to go ten miles.

      Their ranger in a game, however, can probably do it in 6 on a horse. Or their non-superspeed hero in City of Heroes (RIP) in 3 1/4 minutes as they ran at 37 mph. In their Eve ship from a dead stop, maybe 30s, for a bloated one.

      My 5 inch wide slug railguns oh baby how many level 95s do you have in WoW?

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    13. Re:FUBAR Deluxe by saneconservative · · Score: 1

      I have a feeling that you have no military experience at all.

    14. Re:FUBAR Deluxe by TwoEyedJack · · Score: 0

      This is a pretty juvenile analysis. Killing is not always equivalent to murder. In fact, many would argue that killing by the military is rarely murder. When it is, soldiers are prosecuted for murder.

    15. Re:FUBAR Deluxe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


      who is having trouble with military discipline. The chain of command then starts fucking with him. Sooner or later, he does something really stupid.

      Here lies the big problem. Most people with the skill sets they are looking for will not put up with a military type of discipline. Engineers and Hackers like to ask "Why?" too much. Remember military discipline is based on the old adage "Its not mine to question why but to do or die." Most people's reply with the mindset that they looking for to this is "Fuck off". Not good in the chain of command. I know this for my own time in the military.

      I get calls all the time to go to work in the government sector. My reply..... "fuck off"

    16. Re:FUBAR Deluxe by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Yup, no-one in the military has ever done anything good.

      That's not how it works. You have to look at the balance. And in the balance, most militaries spend most of their time oppressing people. And if you join that military, then you're supporting it. And if you're doing it just for a paycheck, then you're especially low scum. See how it works?

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  6. Sooo..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Does this mean the Army will procure quantities of military issue Diet Coke, Hot Pockets and Twinkies in camouflage packaging?

    1. Re:Sooo..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      What about emergency cheeto rations?

    2. Re:Sooo..... by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      Been to a PBX recently? What do you think they stock - carrots and lettuce?

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    3. Re:Sooo..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ow. That's usually the PX/BX, not a PBX... and the Commissary is where the food's at. Class Six for the good stuff.

    4. Re:Sooo..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Been to a PBX recently? What do you think they stock - carrots and lettuce?

      PBX??? WHY the FUCK would I want to go to the phone switch for food???? Unless you mean a PX/BX then I can see them carrying more than just carrots and lettuce.

    5. Re:Sooo..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      why would you get your food from a phone switch?

    6. Re:Sooo..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a D-FAC (dining facility) or mess hall here.

    7. Re:Sooo..... by saneconservative · · Score: 1

      BX/PX is like Walmart or Target and Commissary is like a grocery store. The D-FAC has already prepared food like a cafeteria.

  7. Avatars by vortex2.71 · · Score: 1

    Really, they should just be recruiting an army of nerds to sit in a room driving avatars, whether they be drones, remote tanks, or humanoid robots.

  8. What a great idea! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    J-walking, smoking weed, and downloading unlicensed copies of music online are illegal activities. If you want the best and brightest, it's not a good idea to disqualify 96% for no good reason.

  9. Why not train? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Couldn't they just hire those fat guys and after they've signed the contract start train them physically? I've heard that you cannot really choose what you want to do when your in the army. Or do we talk about people with heart problems who will die after a light running excercise?

    1. Re:Why not train? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can join, just don't be fat, it you get fat, they'll fix that for you

    2. Re:Why not train? by SylvesterTheCat · · Score: 2

      As a taxpayer, is that really how you want tax dollars spent?

      Do you really want them to hire someone who does not meet the physical requirements to then pay them to get into the required level of physical fitness over enlisting / contracting (an enlistment is a contract) someone who does meet all the requirements?

    3. Re:Why not train? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let's turn this around: As taxpayer, do you really want the government to be declining to hire experienced/talented people with niche skill sets whose job is to build and operate the information infrastructure on which your national defense operates based solely on their lack of physical fitness -- a criteria which literally has nothing to do with their ability to do the job we're talking about? Sure, if we're talking about the majority of military gigs, where you can literally hire anyone and train them to do a repeatable task, then by all means ensure that they're in good enough physical shape to be genericized into a work unit that can be thrown at any menial task. In the case of specialties where there is no substitute for skill/experience/motivation, then it makes no sense for physical fitness to be a bar; in that case, then by all means hire them and then if physical fitness needs to be fixed the taxpayers can fund it -- call it a perk of the job from a personal health perspective.

    4. Re:Why not train? by SylvesterTheCat · · Score: 1

      You post has some good points and I thank you for posting it.

      then if physical fitness needs to be fixed the taxpayers can fund it -- call it a perk of the job from a personal health perspective.

      I think that I disagree with this part of your point. If they were capable of being fit to the level required for entry into the military service, they would probably have done it already. Really, the physical fitness level required for entry is NOT that high. Obviously, the original story says this is a problem.

      My alternative is to take that money and invest it into a sharp junior NCO to make them into a warrent officer. I see a lot of the key cyber positions being intel and signal warrent officers. You get the benefit of a know quantity of a junior NCO, you are giving them a career track to grow into, and you get deployability inherent as a prior servicemember. The military also gets the inherent benefit of the warrent officer as a career professional who stays within their specialty as opposed to commissioned officers whose assignments go between one associated with their basic branch and "broadening" ones.

      It is also important to understand why those physical any physical fitness standards exist. Yes, it is in large part to ensure the service member is capable of performing their job. Another reason is the ability to deploy world-wide. At any given time, a certain percentage of the armed forces is non-deployable for any number of reasons. The higher the percentage of non-deployable service members, the larger the required size of the standing force.

      Deployable means being sent to places within a wide range of conditions, from the higher-echelon HQs and units (mostly above Division-level) that are within well-established fixed locations with permanent facilities at one end of the spectrum to the most austere environments at the other end and everything in between.

      A counter argument then follows of "do they really need to be deployable?" Maybe, maybe not. If we want to deviate from a standard that applies to the bulk of the force, so be it. I am not necessarily opposed to that, I am pointing out that such a deviation should only be done after careful consideration for the second / third order effects.

      To some extend, I do believe that there is some differences with how medical professionals are handled. I am referring to specialized medical professionals. They also have a whole separate accession process and perhaps that would be the appropriate model for the cyber field. As far as I know, the same physical and physical fitness requirements still apply to those medical specialties.

      I hope this has been relatively coherent. Time for me to go to work... :)

    5. Re:Why not train? by rjstanford · · Score: 1

      Do you really want people so un-dedicated to working for their country that they can't be bothered to get in shape in order to do the job in front of them?

      Especially when you're in an environment that places value on physical fitness, getting into reasonable shape is more a matter of discipline and habit than anything else. If someone's unwilling to make that "sacrifice," just like someone who doesn't want to cut their hair they probably don't belong in any unit depending on a certain esprit de corps to continue.

      --
      You're special forces then? That's great! I just love your olympics!
    6. Re:Why not train? by Slider451 · · Score: 1

      Good post. Wish I had mod points.

      Bottom line: If they don't maintain the same standards as regular soldiers they will not be seen as soldiers by the larger force.

      Some occupations get no respect (on the hooah scale) regardless of their adherence to military standards. Musicians and cooks come to mind. Yet they are still seen as soldiers because they take the same APFT, fire at the same ranges, and compete for promotion the same way as everyone else.

      Credibility is important in the military. If cyber warriors are really needed in uniform then they need to qualify to wear that uniform. Otherwise just make them DoD civilians or NSA techs.

      --
      Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
    7. Re:Why not train? by budgenator · · Score: 1

      BCT is kinda like football 2-a-days, but lasting for 10 weeks, almost nobody is physically qualified for that. The enterence requirements are more about having a chance at passing BCT than being physically qualified. There was a rule on post where if you marched for 13 or more miles you didn't have to do Physical Training, we didn't do much PT.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
  10. Bad idea? by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1
    --
    Ezekiel 23:20
  11. Why do they need to be in the Military? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why can't they just be hired to do specific work like millions of other federal employees? This seems a bit stupid.

    1. Re:Why do they need to be in the Military? by SgtAaron · · Score: 3, Informative

      Why can't they just be hired to do specific work like millions of other federal employees? This seems a bit stupid.

      I can think of a couple of reasons, there may be more. A new army recruit is probably going to be payed less than a civilian government employee. Also, in the military, you can work 18+ hrs a day and there is no such thing as overtime. Civilians are also not subject to the uniform code of military justice, which means punishing bad guys--or, heh, good guys doing bad--is always made easier than dealing with messy civilian justice.

    2. Re:Why do they need to be in the Military? by k6mfw · · Score: 1

      Why can't they just be hired to do specific work like millions of other federal employees? This seems a bit stupid.

      in many ways it already is, i.e. contractor workforce. Much of Army jobs (mess hall, janitorial, guards, etc.) is contracted out. So much for standing guard duty at some gate that rarely has visitors, put on KP for next 30 days, cleaning floors with a tooth brush. that's why military budget is so huge and yet a very small percentage of all people have any involvement with military services (ask anyone what's the difference between a SSGT and a LTC? Googling is cheating).

      --
      mfwright@batnet.com
    3. Re:Why do they need to be in the Military? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The terms "work" and "federal employees" are mutually exclusive.

    4. Re:Why do they need to be in the Military? by saneconservative · · Score: 1

      I think the abbreviation for Staff Sergeant is SSG. And who really cares about short colonels?

    5. Re:Why do they need to be in the Military? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      In which case I doubt many competent people are going to enlist.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  12. Who needs a knife in a nuke fight by halfdan+the+black · · Score: 1
  13. just like a fortune 500 company except... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    love it that they say they look for the same requirements as a fortune 500 company ... except they will only pay you a fraction of what you would earn at one of those fortune 500 companies

  14. they will have problems on the tech side too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think for this kind of role you want people who understand technology down to the metal. Transistors up.

    But increasingly US universities are churning out legions of Java programmers who really have no clue how a computer works. Some of them do if they take the initiative to learn on their own, but those are the minority.

    We need to stop dumbing down higher education if they want well qualified people. Bring back mandatory classes in assembly language, VLSI design, and other hard core technology topics. Don't let people coast by with fluff.

    Otherwise, it's the tech equivalent of hiring Army Rangers who are too fat to do a single pushup.

    1. Re:they will have problems on the tech side too by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      Nurse! Gramps isn't taking his meds again!

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    2. Re:they will have problems on the tech side too by Dahamma · · Score: 1

      I think for this kind of role you want people who understand technology down to the metal. Transistors up.

      Totally unnecessary. The best hackers are usually extreme specialists, not generalists, and often not college educated, so I bet very few of them could explain the difference between PNP and NPN. Intelligence, self-motivation, and reverse engineering are a lot more useful to hacking than electrical engineering.

      Raising the standard isn't going to get the Army the best and brightest "cyber warriors" - they are going to have to raise the pay grade...

      Otherwise, it's the tech equivalent of hiring Army Rangers who are too fat to do a single pushup.

      That also raises the question - where the hell did that "100 push up, 100 sit up, 2 miles in 10 minutes" for Army Rangers quote come from? The minimum scores are about 1/2 that, and the recommended about 3/4 that. Hell, the Ranger recommended score (and the general Army PFT maximum score) is only 2 miles in 13:00 - I could do that easily in my early 20's (and was doing that since Jr High) and I didn't even particularly like running.

      The existing regular Army minimums are actually (for men) 35 push ups, 47 sit ups (each in 2 minutes) and 16:36 for a 2 mile run. It *is* seriously pitiful that at least 1/2 of the kids graduating from high school can't achieve those...

      http://www.military.com/milita...

    3. Re:they will have problems on the tech side too by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      The existing regular Army minimums are actually (for men) 35 push ups, 47 sit ups (each in 2 minutes) and 16:36 for a 2 mile run. It *is* seriously pitiful that at least 1/2 of the kids graduating from high school can't achieve those...

      I have asthma, but I'm a pretty good simulator pilot. Check your assumptions before you say anything else seriously pitiful

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    4. Re:they will have problems on the tech side too by Dahamma · · Score: 1

      And asthma is often a disqualification for military service. I have seen people have asthma attacks just sitting around, if by mentioning simulators are saying you should be piloting drones launching cruise missiles I'm not sure that's the best idea (especially since all of the drone pilots are also *real* trained military pilots).

      But I guess I didn't put an important clarification in this post - I was clearer in another one when I said *with no other health issues*. And I only said "1/2 of the kids graduating from high school", so, big deal, you are one of the other 1/2, nothing personal implied, obviously.

      Besides, do you *want* to join the Army and get paid $35k a year doing mostly more boring things that I assume you are getting paid multiples of that for more interesting work? (that's an assumption, again, that you are an intelligent technically minded person, apologies if that's not true). If not, then please stop pretending you are being discriminated against for something you have no interest in doing.

    5. Re:they will have problems on the tech side too by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      And asthma is often a disqualification for military service.

      Sure, and it should be, if you're going to be anywhere near a warzone.

      I have seen people have asthma attacks just sitting around,

      Yeah, but I don't do that. I have activity-induced bronchial asthma. As long as I don't try to do anything too active or get involved with one of my major allergens then I'm fine.

      (especially since all of the drone pilots are also *real* trained military pilots).

      Yes, but it's the training that's relevant, not the ability to handle the physical aspect.

      Besides, do you *want* to join the Army and get paid $35k a year doing mostly more boring things that I assume you are getting paid multiples of that for more interesting work?

      No, and anyone who does is a murderer, by proxy at best. That's not the point.

      If not, then please stop pretending you are being discriminated against for something you have no interest in doing.

      I didn't suggest that I was being discriminated against, I suggested that it was discriminatory, and used myself as an example of someone who could perform useful duties.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    6. Re:they will have problems on the tech side too by Richard_at_work · · Score: 1

      You are a great simulator pilot - its a pity that simulators dont give you the full experience, as you would soon realise that pilots have to be fit, fighter pilots more so than pilots of other types, and fighter pilots generally have to give up their profession around their mid-30s due to failing bodies (neck, arm and shoulder muscles and joints).

      Piloting in the military is no push over.

    7. Re:they will have problems on the tech side too by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      You are a great simulator pilot - its a pity that simulators dont give you the full experience, as you would soon realise that pilots have to be fit, fighter pilots more so than pilots of other types, and fighter pilots generally have to give up their profession around their mid-30s due to failing bodies (neck, arm and shoulder muscles and joints).

      Okay. Show me where I suggested that someone like me should be a fighter pilot.

      Piloting in the military is no push over.

      You forgot drones exist. Piloting a chair is a push over.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    8. Re:they will have problems on the tech side too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, but it's the training that's relevant, not the ability to handle the physical aspect.

      Flying a fighter jet is a VERY physical activity. You probably don't want to have exercise induced asthma while making a 4G turn with an oxygen mask on.

    9. Re:they will have problems on the tech side too by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Flying a fighter jet is a VERY physical activity

      And slashdotting is a very mental activity, which is why you should leave it to those people who are equipped with a brain

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    10. Re:they will have problems on the tech side too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd have at least have expected a half decent insult from such a towering intellect as yourself. Was that really the best you could do? Be civil or be insulting, but don't be half-assed, man.

      Some people have the brains, some the body, unfortunately apparently you have neither. Lucky for you humanity is no longer bound by the limitations of survival of the fittest, and instead is descending into the depths of idiocracy. I'm sure you'll fit right in.

    11. Re:they will have problems on the tech side too by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Be civil or be insulting, but don't be half-assed, man.

      Like likes like.

      Some people have the brains, some the body, unfortunately apparently you have neither.

      Says the coward who can't read?

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  15. Physical requirements are not all that tough by SgtAaron · · Score: 5, Interesting

    When I enlisted in 1990 you only had to be able to complete something like 13 pushups to be assigned to a basic training unit. Those that couldn't were put into a "remedial physical training" unit, where of course they were roundly laughed at by those in real basic. Passing the actual PT test at the end of basic is different, but at 18 were only had to do around 45 pushups and 60 situps in two minutes, and run two miles in less than 17 minutes or thereabouts--don't recall precisely. And as you get older, the requirements lessen. Upon enlistment all we had to do was lift 40 pounds above your head on a weight machine. I was 5'3" and 115 pounds back then (still 5'3", beer has added a bit of weight over time :-)

    1. Re:Physical requirements are not all that tough by Rich0 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      When I enlisted in 1990 you only had to be able to complete something like 13 pushups to be assigned to a basic training unit.

      I'd have failed that. Sure, I probably could have spent a lot of time working out and gotten to that point, but what's the point?

      Anytime you introduce a selective pressure for one attribute, you're unwittingly selecting AGAINST other attributes. Do you want the best "cyber warrior" you can find, or the best "cyber warrior" who also happens to be able to do 13 pushups too? If the bad guys aren't so picky, she might find herself outclassed...

    2. Re:Physical requirements are not all that tough by khasim · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I got out in 1990 after serving for 7 years.

      Sure, I probably could have spent a lot of time working out and gotten to that point, but what's the point?

      So that the other people in your unit know that they can depend upon you to perform the physical requirements of being in a war zone.

      Anytime you introduce a selective pressure for one attribute, you're unwittingly selecting AGAINST other attributes.

      And I agree with that. 100%. Dr. Hawking wouldn't be physically able to serve (even if he wanted to). But you would want him working on your side.

      Do you want the best "cyber warrior" you can find, or the best "cyber warrior" who also happens to be able to do 13 pushups too?

      I prefer to substitute "Facebook" for "cyber" in these articles. It puts them in perspective.

      But that isn't the question. The question is whether these "Facebook warriors" will ever be deployed to a war zone.

      If yes, then they need to meet the physical requirements the same as every other soldier.

      If no, then hire them as civilians. Skip Basic and AIT and everything else. Classify them along with all the other GS-whatevers.

    3. Re: Physical requirements are not all that tough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you can't do 13 push-ups, for me that's a sign that you do not care about yourself. That is a major problem. I would never hire you.

    4. Re: Physical requirements are not all that tough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a sign that you can't do 13 push-ups. Maybe you like doing other things instead of working out.

      But here, let me put forth a little 'rule' that's just as arbitrarily as the bullshit you spewed forth: If you can't dig a giant hole in the ground with a spoon, for me that's a sign that you do not care about yourself, and that's a major problem.

    5. Re:Physical requirements are not all that tough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      There are good reasons to have minimum fitness standards.

      I don't know how old you are, but 13 pushups is not a lot. I'm 59 and have no problem doing twice that many. Anyone who doesn't have a physical disability should be able to do that. It's not much of a requirement really, but there does need to be some minimal level of "can move under one's own power" requirement for military service, even if it's primarily a desk job. Sometimes those turn into non-desk jobs.

    6. Re:Physical requirements are not all that tough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When I enlisted in 1990 you only had to be able to complete something like 13 pushups to be assigned to a basic training unit.

      I'd have failed that.

      Really? I'm 45, overweight, horribly out of shape, and even I can do 13 pushups. What the hell was wrong with you?

    7. Re:Physical requirements are not all that tough by Skidborg · · Score: 1

      "a lot of time" in this case equal about six weeks of try to do 13 push ups a day. You're literally disqualifying yourself because you don't want to spend two hours TOTAL exercising.

      --
      Supporter of the +1 Over Dramatic mod option. In memory of apk.
    8. Re: Physical requirements are not all that tough by Skidborg · · Score: 1

      Basic physical fitness helps with a lot of things, mental acuity included. It requires next to no effort to reach the baseline laid out there. It could be compared to brushing your teeth or washing you clothes occasionally. A basic inconvenience that's part of being a functional human being.

      --
      Supporter of the +1 Over Dramatic mod option. In memory of apk.
    9. Re:Physical requirements are not all that tough by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      "a lot of time" in this case equal about six weeks of try to do 13 push ups a day. You're literally disqualifying yourself because you don't want to spend two hours TOTAL exercising.

      Somehow I doubt it takes only two hours total. But, whatever. Honestly, I could really care less whether I can do a pushup. :) My current employer doesn't really have a problem with that, and I don't have a problem with accepting their paycheck.

    10. Re: Physical requirements are not all that tough by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Basic physical fitness helps with a lot of things, mental acuity included.

      Well, if what you care about is mental acuity, then why not just measure that? Playing a musical instrument is often correlated with intelligence, but I've yet to be asked to bring an instrument to a job interview.

    11. Re: Physical requirements are not all that tough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't need to workout to do 13 pushups. Anything under 20 pushups in two minutes is a piece of cake for anyone that is not too heavy or too skinny.

    12. Re: Physical requirements are not all that tough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, I think he's right. If you can't do a handful of push ups, or if walking for a hour makes you tired, or you can't dig a big hole with a spoon then there is something very, very wrong with you. Not correcting that if you can is a sign that you don't care about yourself or living. I don't want those kind of people around me either.

      FYI, doing a few push-ups is not working out. It's a basic functionality your body should have. Like standing or walking for extended periods.

    13. Re:Physical requirements are not all that tough by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      I don't know how old you are, but 13 pushups is not a lot. I'm 59 and have no problem doing twice that many.

      I'd probably have a hard time doing one, and I'm not obese (for whatever BMI is worth). I have no problem doing stuff with software, math, and the physical sciences that 99.99% of the population who can do a pushup probably couldn't do with a year of coaching. I'm hardly the brightest coder around, either.

      You have to choose your priorities if you want the "best" for a particular job. Do you want the best, or the best of what's left?

    14. Re:Physical requirements are not all that tough by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      When I enlisted in 1990 you only had to be able to complete something like 13 pushups to be assigned to a basic training unit.

      I'd have failed that.

      Really? I'm 45, overweight, horribly out of shape, and even I can do 13 pushups. What the hell was wrong with you?

      Perhaps you should ask somebody who knows something about physiology. I was not diagnosed with any medical abnormalities that I'm aware of. I can't say when the last time I tried to do a pushup was, but I doubt I could do 13 of them today.

    15. Re: Physical requirements are not all that tough by The+Ickle+Jones · · Score: 1

      Not correcting that if you can is a sign that you don't care about yourself or living.

      If they didn't care about living, they likely would have died already. How about you not decide how others feel based on your own arbitrary standards?

    16. Re: Physical requirements are not all that tough by The+Ickle+Jones · · Score: 1

      Playing a musical instrument is often correlated with intelligence

      Correlated with things that have arbitrarily been deemed to be intelligence, you mean. There's a difference.

    17. Re:Physical requirements are not all that tough by Rich0 · · Score: 2

      Don't get me wrong - having physical requirements for anybody who is deployed anywhere near a combat zone or who is responsible for providing physical security is a no-brainer. If the mission requires having a "cyber warrior" join a team that will infiltrate some facility then they certainly should be able to meet the physical qualifications, use a gun, etc.

    18. Re: Physical requirements are not all that tough by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      FYI, doing a few push-ups is not working out. It's a basic functionality your body should have. Like standing or walking for extended periods.

      Not everybody can stand or walk for extended periods either.

      You're of course welcome to choose what sorts of people you hang around with. I certainly don't find it difficult to gain employment, or socialize with colleagues.

    19. Re: Physical requirements are not all that tough by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Playing a musical instrument is often correlated with intelligence

      Correlated with things that have arbitrarily been deemed to be intelligence, you mean. There's a difference.

      Sure, and correlation also is of limited importance as well. But, I imagine that asking a candidate to play a song is about as useful a predictor of job performance as asking them to do pushups.

    20. Re: Physical requirements are not all that tough by Dahamma · · Score: 1

      It's a sign that you can't do 13 push-ups. Maybe you like doing other things instead of working out.

      An 18 year old doing 13 push ups in 3 minutes is not "working out". 13 push ups in 2 minutes is "not being morbidly obese and a heart attack waiting to happen."

    21. Re: Physical requirements are not all that tough by Dahamma · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If you are in your early 20's and otherwise pass the basic health requirements, but can't do a dozen push ups in 2 minutes or stand for an hour, you probably should *not* be in the Army.

      If you don't have any other health issues besides being so out of shape you can't accomplish those, then yes, I think spending the month or so it would take to get in a bit better shape to pass it would be a good sign of someone who might actually take pride and responsibility in their work.

    22. Re:Physical requirements are not all that tough by Dahamma · · Score: 2

      If you have no other health issues besides being that out of shape, you'd be surprised how easily you can get in at least basic enough shape to meet those requirements. I'm surprised how low the current Army requirements are, really, I could easily do them all and I haven't gone near a gym in 15 years.

      Back when I was working out, my initial pull up (MUCH harder than push ups, of course) count was a big zero. After a month I could do 5, and after 2 months 10-15. The *Army Ranger* requirement is 6 (regular PFT doesn't require any, I think).

      The *best* would have no problem spending 30 minutes a day (or even every other day) for a month or so to meet those minimal requirements. Especially if you actually *wanted* the job - if not, then who cares? All it takes is a very small amount of willpower and commitment, something the Army should be looking for.

    23. Re:Physical requirements are not all that tough by RobertLTux · · Score: 1

      besides being able to wrangle a loaded rack server into place at combat speed could come in handy someday.

      Or run a 100 foot network cable

      Or throw a ssd to some grunt to plug it into a rack

      but then again any DI that can't get a geek into shape in decent time needs to hang up his smokey bear hat

      --
      Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
    24. Re: Physical requirements are not all that tough by Cederic · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I have very weak arms relative to body weight. Always have done. 13 push-ups has never been easy for me, even when I could do 100 sit ups in a minute and run 2 miles in under 12.

      I can however benchpress my own weight. Different muscle groups..

    25. Re:Physical requirements are not all that tough by k6mfw · · Score: 1

      I know someone who joined the Navy in 1970s, he learned proper military posture and attitude very quickly. He answered "yes" and was slugged in the gut. He was told to answer "Yes SIR!" and followed by "On your feet boy! and I mean like now!" He managed to get up, and stand up straight (cough cough, yes cough sir cough).

      --
      mfwright@batnet.com
    26. Re: Physical requirements are not all that tough by PrincipoAzzurro · · Score: 1

      It's a sign that you can't do 13 push-ups. Maybe you like doing other things instead of working out.

      But here, let me put forth a little 'rule' that's just as arbitrarily as the bullshit you spewed forth: If you can't dig a giant hole in the ground with a spoon, for me that's a sign that you do not care about yourself, and that's a major problem.

      Can't do 13 pushups? Stay out of my Army. Next thing you know, the feces hit the fan in some God-forsaken third world country and I'm stuck in a firefight with a bunch of pasty nerds who can't go for a brisk walk with their M4's and a few liters of water.

      This is not a game. We have standards for a reason.

    27. Re:Physical requirements are not all that tough by khasim · · Score: 1

      I think I'm agreeing with you.

      If the mission requires having a "cyber warrior" join a team that will infiltrate some facility then they certainly should be able to meet the physical qualifications, use a gun, etc.

      Yup! But that "Facebook warrior" would probably have a different MOS.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_occupation_code

      But the "Facebook warrior" who will never be deployed and will never see actual combat would be a GS-something.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Schedule_(US_civil_service_pay_scale)

      The problem (IMO) is with the military officers trying to bulk up their careers by being associated with a new division or whatever. No matter how bad the idea is or how much it hurts morale.

    28. Re: Physical requirements are not all that tough by SgtAaron · · Score: 1

      We all have our talents. First and foremost that's the thing to remember. Here I go starting this thread talking about being able to do push-ups, when my brother is a ballroom dance instructor and has talent enough to take a piece of clay and turn it into Patrick Stewart. Umm, btw, even in my best years you'd have beat me in sit-ups.

    29. Re: Physical requirements are not all that tough by Dahamma · · Score: 1

      I can however benchpress my own weight. Different muscle groups..

      Well, if you even know what a benchpress is you are ahead of the game on /. apparently... Any good trainer could get you doing > 20-30 push ups in 2 minutes in a month. Those muscle groups may not start big but they follow the same biological principles as anyone else's :)

    30. Re:Physical requirements are not all that tough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Based on our constitution and federal law, we currently need to have military members to carry out attacks be they cyber or kinetic in nature. That means the people pulling the trigger are subject to a chain of command and the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

    31. Re:Physical requirements are not all that tough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thanks, you gave me a new idea for cloud-to-butt, but instead of replacing the cloud with my butt, replace cyber warrior with facebook hacker. :D

    32. Re: Physical requirements are not all that tough by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      If you are in your early 20's and otherwise pass the basic health requirements, but can't do a dozen push ups in 2 minutes or stand for an hour, you probably should *not* be in the Army.

      We're talking about a "cyber warfare" division of the Army. Your statement is like saying that grunts who don't know what an opcode is probably should *not* be in the Army. Both types belong in the new Army, but not in the same roles.

      If you don't have any other health issues besides being so out of shape you can't accomplish those, then yes, I think spending the month or so it would take to get in a bit better shape to pass it would be a good sign of someone who might actually take pride and responsibility in their work.

      You're more than welcome to think that. You may even take pride and responsibility in your work. Clearly though you're not a very good judge of character, though, so you'd definitely not be on my interview team. :)

      If you want to know whether somebody takes pride in their work, then take a look at their work. Now, if the job you're hiring them for is highly physical, then their muscles will be a part of that work. If you're hiring a baker, then you probably should be caring more about whether they spend their spare time making cakes. :)

    33. Re:Physical requirements are not all that tough by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      The *best* would have no problem spending 30 minutes a day (or even every other day) for a month or so to meet those minimal requirements. Especially if you actually *wanted* the job - if not, then who cares? All it takes is a very small amount of willpower and commitment, something the Army should be looking for.

      So your point is to require arbitrary commitments in order to weed out people who don't waste their time doing pointless work because they're desperate to have the job? I'm not sure that you're going to find a lot of great candidates for your "cyber warrior" division.

      The thing is that the typical "cyber warrior" probably isn't some kid who doesn't have any other options (especially if they don't want to recruit people with criminal backgrounds, etc). If you want the best then it is the employer who really needs to be bending over backwards to prove that they have the willpower and commitment to hire the best. If you merely want mediocre to less, then by all means make your candidates jump through hoops, in this case almost literally.

    34. Re: Physical requirements are not all that tough by tibit · · Score: 1

      I hate to sort of point out the obvious, but the muscles useful for push-ups are not necessarily useful for much else. I do all of my own house renovation, going up and down scaffoldings, carrying materials (including 90lb buckets of concrete), sanding drywall (best workout ever), I fix my cars including wrangling engines and transmissions around, etc. I can't do push ups, it wasn't something I ever had a need to do. It seems like a skill for its own sake.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    35. Re: Physical requirements are not all that tough by tibit · · Score: 1

      I'm sure I could pull off a brisk walk with plenty of gear. What's that got to do with fucking push-ups that everyone is so fixated with?

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    36. Re:Physical requirements are not all that tough by jjbenz · · Score: 1

      I remember seeing the guys in remedial PT at Fort Knox, they had to wear yellow shorts and shirts. I remember them being referred to as the "banana boys". The physical requirements of the PT tests we took could be easily achieved by most people.

    37. Re:Physical requirements are not all that tough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd have failed that. Sure, I probably could have spent a lot of time working out and gotten to that point, but what's the point?

      Assuming you're just very, very out of shape (and not crippled or otherwise suffering from a debilitating medical condition), you'd be surprised by how little time you'd have to spend working out to be able to do 13 consecutive pushups in 2 minutes. Source: personal experience starting with 1 pushup and incrementally increasing number of repetitions until I hit 40, which would have seemed unimaginable when I started. Took on average of 1 minute out of my morning every day for less than two months, or about one hour of total time. Seriously, give it a shot, you'll surprise yourself. Posting anonymously because I'm more easily embarassed about my terrible physique than you seem to be.

    38. Re:Physical requirements are not all that tough by kilfarsnar · · Score: 1

      When I enlisted in 1990 you only had to be able to complete something like 13 pushups to be assigned to a basic training unit. Those that couldn't were put into a "remedial physical training" unit...

      This is kind of what I was thinking. Can't you just get some of these overweight recruits into training and whip them into shape? After all, you control their exercise and diet. Maybe they need to bring Bob Harper on as a consultant.

      --
      "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
    39. Re: Physical requirements are not all that tough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I call BS to this. No way someone can benchpress their bodyweight and not do 13 push-ups. It isn't different muscle groups, its the same one. A pushup is the bodyweight equivalent of a bench press with more core engagement. If you do them properly it is only arms at the top end of the pushup, same as at the top end of the bench press.

    40. Re:Physical requirements are not all that tough by Whorhay · · Score: 1

      Woah, woah, woah there!

      If you hire them as civil servants that'll cost a lot more money. The salaries aren't anywhere near similiar. And while a civilian has to pay for some of their healthcare and retirement benefits you can bet the cost is much lower for military members. And if they actually have the gall to save for their retirement you then have to do some matching.

    41. Re: Physical requirements are not all that tough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have very weak arms relative to body weight. Always have done. 13 push-ups has never been easy for me, even when I could do 100 sit ups in a minute and run 2 miles in under 12.

      I can however benchpress my own weight. Different muscle groups..

      Did you mean pull-ups?

      Or 13 four count push-ups at least (26)??

      Sorry I don't want to make you feel bad, it's just hard to believe. You don't have to do push-ups any special way to get stronger, just do them.
      Do them. Because a strange dude on the Internet told you to. It'll make me feel better if you get to 20.

    42. Re:Physical requirements are not all that tough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "a lot of time" in this case equal about six weeks of try to do 13 push ups a day. You're literally disqualifying yourself because you don't want to spend two hours TOTAL exercising.

      Somehow I doubt it takes only two hours total. But, whatever. Honestly, I could really care less whether I can do a pushup. :) My current employer doesn't really have a problem with that, and I don't have a problem with accepting their paycheck.

      It's up to you, but you may want to consider, objectively, what your quality of life will be like by age 50 if you can't even do 13 push-ups now. Man or woman, with that little muscle mass (or extra weight preventing you from doing them) I think you're vastly underestimating your risk and just what life will be like, even at a fairly young age. You don't have to become an ultra marathoner to make sure you're in good enough shape to greatly reduce your risk of issues. You don't even have to go my route of making sure you can lift 2x your bodyweight in iron plates. Don't be lulled into equating "lack of being currently ill" with "healthy", they're very much not the same thing.

      Finally, consider that the objectivity I'm suggesting is something we're innately bad at, so statistically, you're going to get your risk assessment wrong, even if you feel like you "tried", you'll have to approach this from several angles in order to even have good odds of looking at it objectively. Our emergency rooms and hospitals are absolutely chocked full of people who've gotten it wrong, they're sick people who are currently "extra sick". They have lost the opportunity to ever get better.

    43. Re:Physical requirements are not all that tough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm the same AC, I should also say, even if you're a woman, your gender is not an excuse: My girlfriend can deadlift 285 pounds, well over 1.5x her body weight. Granted she's a little on the genetically lucky side for female strength, but the free weights section of all the gyms I've visited are full of women, of all sizes, deadlifting and squatting whatever they can do, and all of them can do 13 push ups without even breathing hard.

    44. Re:Physical requirements are not all that tough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think the selective pressure is set to allow those prone to obesity, health problems, low academic ability, and criminal predilections to reproduce.

    45. Re:Physical requirements are not all that tough by budgenator · · Score: 1

      The PFT is scored, the numbers that are being thrown around are the minimum passing score. When you have done as many pushups as you can in two minutes, followed by as many situps as you can in two minutes, followed by running 2 miles as fast as you can is quite a bit more challenging than doing any of them in isolation would be. Pushups work the pecs and the abs, the situps work the abs and hip flexors, and of course running works the hip flexors quite a bit. Having good PFT scores effect your ratings, your promotability and even whether you services will still be required, so there is considerable pressure to not just pass but to achieve the maximum scores.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    46. Re: Physical requirements are not all that tough by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Look, I have, in the past, worked hard on my upper body strength. It still sucked. For much less effort, I could max out the weights on every exercise machine that relied on muscles below my diaphragm. I never found out why I had limited upper body strength, but it really hasn't impeded my life significantly.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  16. I Don't See This Working by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    IMO everything they could do with this should fall under civilian contract. Someone in the military, no matter what their training is, should be a soldier first and foremost. There is no 'safe' job in the military. You come under attack, standing orders are to hit the armory and draw weapons to fight. That's not going to fly with a bunch of people who couldn't pass Basic. They'll at best get dead and at worst be responsible for others getting dead alongside them.

  17. Something wrong with those numbers by Chuckstar · · Score: 4, Interesting

    There's something wrong with their numbers.

    There's no way that only 30% of Americans are high school graduates who are not obese and don't have criminal records. It's just not possible.

    The U.S. high school graduation rate is 80%. About 30% of the population have been arrested. Many of those will be found innocent, charges never pressed, or convicted of very minor charges, such that 8.5% of the population ends up with felony convictions. Does obesity account for all the rest?

    The stats they are using are ages 17-24. Is it possible they are skewed by the fact that many 17 and 18-year-olds simply haven't finished high school yet (even if they are on track to do so)?

    1. Re:Something wrong with those numbers by Rich0 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The U.S. high school graduation rate is 80%. About 30% of the population have been arrested.

      Well, if that alone isn't cause for concern, I don't know what is. Think about the implications of that in a society where you have a good chance of being unemployable even if you have a college degree...

    2. Re:Something wrong with those numbers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe Its that out of that age group the other 70% consider they have better opportunities or Fail on other medical grounds even if they can pass the physical tests etc?

    3. Re:Something wrong with those numbers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      > Well, if that alone isn't cause for concern, I don't know what is

      Given that young people are arrested for possession of alcohol if they're under 21, for driving with an expired license, or for insisting on filming police at a peaceful protest on a public street, it's not shocking. I was arrested before I was 20 for wearing a dark coat and resembling a description of a mugger. The coat was the wrong color,, and both of the officers who arrested me apologized for the sergeant who'd insisted I was a suspect.

      When they drove onto the MIT campus to drop me off at class, it made my day.But *lord*, I was glad that I was white, I had ID, and I knew enough to be very, very polite with police. I was not actually who deals with that kind of suspicion every day for living in the wrong neighborhood.

    4. Re:Something wrong with those numbers by Bite+The+Pillow · · Score: 1

      72% are not obesity related. Obviously your numbers are suspect.

      "While cognitive and moral disqualifications have held steady, weight issues account for 18% of disqualifications, and the number is rising steadily, according to Batschelet."

      If your back of a nonexistent napkin attempt is that far off, do you really conclude that the article is the wrong one?

    5. Re:Something wrong with those numbers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      There's no way that only 30% of Americans are high school graduates who are not obese and don't have criminal records. It's just not possible.

      Not 30% of all Americans. 30% of the military's core recruitment demographic. We're not talking about no Senator's son, we're talking about the poor or prospectless.

      Some folks are born made to wave the flag
      Ooh, they're red, white and blue
      And when the band plays "Hail to the Chief"
      Oh, they point the cannon at you

    6. Re:Something wrong with those numbers by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      > Well, if that alone isn't cause for concern, I don't know what is

      Given that young people are arrested for possession of alcohol if they're under 21, for driving with an expired license, or for insisting on filming police at a peaceful protest on a public street, it's not shocking.

      Sure, and I wasn't suggesting that the problem was that the right sort of people weren't being born. I doubt the population of newborns today is somehow less virtuous than those who were born 50 years ago. The problem obviously lies in the laws, and by extension the public school system and the parents.

    7. Re:Something wrong with those numbers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My thought is that it might be 30% *of the people that apply*.
      A disproportionate number of those looking to join the army are likely to be poor, and undereducated. Which would be correlated to higher levels of incarceration and obesity than in the general population.

    8. Re:Something wrong with those numbers by c · · Score: 1

      Does obesity account for all the rest?

      The summary specifically said "obesity or health problems". I assume that would include things like asthma, diabetes, vision problems, etc. I'd have to wonder if anyone taking medication would immediately be flagged as "unhealthy", automatically excluding anyone diagnosed with ADHD and many other behavioural disorders?

      --
      Log in or piss off.
    9. Re:Something wrong with those numbers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Congratulations! You've detected one of the first jobs of cyberwarriors: spread false numbers, so people think there really is a problem that must be addressed immediately.

      Much has been made of military cyberwarriors. There is a place for them, but most cyberwarriors could be part of the government that never goes to a war zone, and therefore could be CIA or NSA employees, or the like.

      I suspect much of the trouble here is that the military would like to take over that mission, and that funding, from anyone else. Why should the Air Force be the main people doing cyber stuff? Makes no sense. Cyber guys don't need uniforms, and don't need VA Hospitals and GI Bill benefits.

  18. That's why they have the draft by pubwvj · · Score: 2

    That's why they have the draft.
    If you won't work for low pay, they'll force you to work for low pay. And get shot and killed. Most Fortune 500 companies don't require that last little bit...

    1. Re:That's why they have the draft by Hognoxious · · Score: 3, Funny

      Shhh! Don't give them ideas.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    2. Re:That's why they have the draft by Deadstick · · Score: 1

      That's why they have the draft.

      Congratulations on your successful thawing. When did they freeze you?

    3. Re:That's why they have the draft by pubwvj · · Score: 2

      I take it you're not aware that the draft is still in the laws, although not currently used, and only a signature away. Don't get complacent jack(ass).

    4. Re:That's why they have the draft by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nahh, just do what conservatard Ted Nugent did: do a line of crystal meth before before your draft physical.

    5. Re:That's why they have the draft by Deadstick · · Score: 1

      The Selective Service System is still in the law. A "draft" is not in effect, and it's not just a signature away: it's an act of Congress away, Jack. You can look these things up.

  19. Ob: Animal House by Hognoxious · · Score: 2

    Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son.

    Not in civvy street, anyway.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    1. Re:Ob: Animal House by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son.

      too true! the military demands that you be fit, drunk and stupid.

  20. It will be geeks versus Jocks again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    you will be despised by the rest of the service.

  21. Does this imply ... by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

    ... that DoD has determined that geeks are typically fat and stuff?

    --
    It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
  22. Hire civilians? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Instead of changing the requirements for enlisted personnel, why not hire civilians for 'cyber warrior' positions?

    1. Re:Hire civilians? by Dahamma · · Score: 1

      Then they might have to pay them a competitive civilian salary.

    2. Re:Hire civilians? by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      Re why not hire civilians for 'cyber warrior' positions?
      With US mil staff they can be kept on base, called up, sent on any mission, given meds, kept in remote, hot or cold locations on low pay. Their base and social lives can be understood, controlled, legally shaped and corrected. Their internet use logged, the calls listened in on. No escape form any task over years after the skill set has been learned.
      With civilians they have real rights, real lawyers, can sort of still say no to meds and remote locations for years, can report crimes, bosses who may or may not apply for a contract, may have limited digital only background clearances.
      The mil ends up with someone who has the private sector skills and a computer has a trail of data that says they lived in the US, went to school in the US, has US parents and has no strange reading or web use habits.
      In the past their schools, friends, family around the US would have been found, interviewed and life story fully investigated.
      The US mil wants the kind of staff the NSA and GCHQ had in the 1950's. Any location, any task, no questions, no lawyers.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
  23. We would forgive you, Snowden ... by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

    ... if you'd just bulk up a little.

    --
    It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
  24. Perhaps this should not be part of the Army by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If it's not fitting in with the rest of the entire Army, the perhaps it's something different. Similar to how when a new technology was created, we created a new branch, namely the USAF, perhaps there should be a USCF, or something like that. (Though using the word cyber is typically quite outdated.)

    (Plus the Air Force would probably like it, all of the jokes about them and their hard physical work would be transferred to the new group.)

  25. Bringing the term, "friendly fire," ... by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

    ... to a military computer near you.

    --
    It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
  26. Re:Capable people don't want to be involved. by Skidborg · · Score: 1

    The most violent on earth? By what metric?

    --
    Supporter of the +1 Over Dramatic mod option. In memory of apk.
  27. Does the USN or USAF do this by CQDX · · Score: 1

    AFAIK they recruit excellent engineers that meet their fitness requirements so what is so different about the USA?

    Really, anyone who isn't disciplined enough to stay somewhat fit, or to get fit enough for basic, really isn't military material IMHO. Physical discipline and mental discipline go hand-in-hand. Are cyber-warriors allowed to stuff their faces at the DEFAC? Will they be excused from all field exercises? Will never be deployed in country, attached to MI units?

    1. Re:Does the USN or USAF do this by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      AFAIK they recruit excellent engineers that meet their fitness requirements so what is so different about the USA?

      Well, do you want the best, or do you merely want "excellent?" There can only be 10 top-10 anythings in the world, and maybe they aren't good at pushups?

      I couldn't tell you what if any differences exist in the current physical standards between the branches of the US military.

    2. Re:Does the USN or USAF do this by Dahamma · · Score: 1

      The enlisted aren't really "engineers" from an academic perspective, they are very specifically trained techs. The actual engineers (with a BS) would mostly be officers who went through ROTC or some such and so had to go through plenty of military and physical training in college already.

      I agree that if you can't manage 30-ish push ups in 2 minutes you may want to consider another job - many (even technically minded) young people can already do that, and almost anyone in otherwise good health can get there with a couple months of fairly trivial exercising. Just seems like a pretty low bar to judge their commitment to wanting the job...

    3. Re:Does the USN or USAF do this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem when I was in was that they expected their "cyber warriors" and ITs to sit behind a desk 12 - 14 hours a day while the remainder of the force is out running around doing things. It makes a world of difference.

    4. Re:Does the USN or USAF do this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Could have something to do with the nature of enlistment. In the Army, aren't you "Army first"?

      I know in the Navy, I enlisted to -be- my rating, and I knew that as my rating, there was about .001% chance I could even attempt to get out of it.

  28. Re:Capable people don't want to be involved. by ColdWetDog · · Score: 5, Funny

    Son, we use American units here, none of this 'metric' bullshit.

    Now, your question again?

    --
    Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
  29. Another Service? by Jawnn · · Score: 2

    I don't believe the mission nor the culture of a "cyber warrior" (yes, whatever the fuck that is) lends itself to the military. Sorry, no. Not even close. What makes those guys (and yes, it is mostly guys, by far) tick is utterly foreign to military culture. It's a bad fit.

  30. An unintended consequence of the war on some drugs by Eunuchswear · · Score: 1

    AKA the war on young black men.

    --
    Watch this Heartland Institute video
  31. Lowering the Bar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Isn't cyber-warfare part of the reason the NSA exists? Or are they too busy pointing their weapons at citizens?

    They have whole colleges for the branches' officers. Have courses at West Point, the Air Force Academy, or whatever on compsci, programming, and make a course specifically on black hat hacking. Encourage CompSci majors to join ROTC, give out perks and automatically higher rank to CompSci majors who can demonstrate hacking skill when they join up.

    Lowering the bar across the board is going to attract lower quality recruits, but most certainly not out-of-shape pale nerds to possibly the most testosterone-filled, macho organization this side of the galaxy. Grunts and much less CO's aren't going to think highly of a neckbeard with a smarmy t-shirt.

    1. Re:Lowering the Bar by Dahamma · · Score: 1

      Have courses at West Point, the Air Force Academy, or whatever on compsci, programming, and make a course specifically on black hat hacking.

      The military academies already have computer science (and most other engineering) degree programs. And I'd bet you anything they have courses in computer security of various forms.

      Encourage CompSci majors to join ROTC, give out perks and automatically higher rank to CompSci majors

      No need to - they go through ROTC and they will already join as a 2nd Lt. If they prove themselves, they will be promoted, that's how the whole thing works...

    2. Re:Lowering the Bar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If what you say is true (obviously I don't know otherwise), then it begs the question whether or not it's even possible for them to significantly increase their number of compsci majors. If the Army can't even pay people to take the job, they're probably screwed.

      The only way then is conscription or increasing salaries to the point that they are competitive with major companies that might otherwise be employing these people, and they'll likely won't do either of those unless they're truly desperate.

    3. Re:Lowering the Bar by Dahamma · · Score: 2

      It's definitely true and public knowledge...

      But you make a key point as far as salaries - I have never been in the military but I have been in the tech industry for 20 years and techies generally don't care about "rank" and hate hierarchy and bureaucracy, two particular specialties of the military. It's amazing how the US government is fine with paying $300 million for a fighter jet or $1.5M for a single cruise missile but they think paying $60k a year to a Captain with 5 years of experience is adequate to recruit smart engineers out of college...

    4. Re:Lowering the Bar by Dahamma · · Score: 1

      Ok replying to myself... but maybe they should think of it this way. $1.5M for one cruise missile that probably takes out a building a a few terrorists. Well, cyber warfare doesn't work like that, you can't just blindly spend on a "hacking program" (despite the promise of Neuromancer ;) - the human is actually doing most of the work, so maybe they should be considered a valuable asset...

  32. Geeks.. by graphius · · Score: 1

    So they are looking for pasty scrawny geeks to fly their drones? (My son's comment upon reading the headlines...)

    1. Re:Geeks.. by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      So they are looking for pasty scrawny geeks to fly their drones?

      Hardly. I believe that they require drone pilots to be qualified as ordinary aircraft pilots, and they make them wear flight suits while they're piloting drones.

      Idiotic, but it is a culture thing. There is certainly an overlap of skills in piloting a drone and a manned aircraft, but there are lots of things exclusive to either. Maybe your next ace drone pilot is afraid of heights and you wash him out in training. :)

    2. Re:Geeks.. by graphius · · Score: 1

      Wow, Interesting. But wearing a flight suit? If I had not commented, I would mod you very informative...

  33. Htealth issues includes a lot more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A lot of my cyber friends have profound issues. I'm diabetic, and would have loved to take a modified form of boot camp for a behind-the-lines role to pay for my college.

    Mind you, I was also an idiot: gearing up to have the US military wasted in invading Iraq and Afghanistan to "stamp out terrorism" when we really should have stepped in and stripped Pakistan of nuclear technology was well, it guaranteed control of oil and waved a big military wienie around, but it's actually hightened the risk from Muslim fanatacism far beyond what it was even in the midst of the 9/11 attack.

  34. Plenty of recruits out there by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There are lots of smart, fit people with the technical inclination and ability to become cyberwarriors. They all go to work for corporations, and always will, because the military cannot offer them anything like what they can get in the private sector.

    1. Re:Plenty of recruits out there by AHuxley · · Score: 2

      The NSA always looked after the wider educational needs of its staff due to hidden funding. The GCHQ had finally learned the reason why staff need to be taken care of with good conditions, more educational support and wages by the 1960-80's.
      It really depends on how much the US gov wants to pay, the conditions offered in hot and cold parts of the world and the quality of long term higher education support offered to each person.
      If not many other nations will be ready to listen, support and offer funding to any cleared US staff member who feels unhappy and needs a new friend.
      Or just get their own people digitally cleared as new US cyberwarriors. Over many years a few will make it to the top of cyberwarrior command.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
  35. Most countries invaded and/or bombed... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    1) Most countries invaded and/or bombed since the end of the 2nd world war, at least 27.

    2) Six times the percentage of people in prison as European countries.

    3) Most people killed since the end of the 2nd world war, approximately 11,00,000. (Stalin killed 27,000,000, Mao-Tse-Tung 50,000,000, but that was before the end of the world.) That estimate includes people killed because of waves of violence that happened because of the U.S. violence.

    4) Most expensive, largest military, by far. The violence there is stealing from taxpayers.

    5) U.S. citizens are not allowed to know many of the policies of the U.S. government. In that way, the U.S. is no longer a democracy.

    6) Secret U.S. government agencies are allowed to kidnap or kill anyone, anywhere, sometimes with the help of secret agencies in another country. No regular citizen is allowed to know their activities.

    1. Re:Most countries invaded and/or bombed... by rogoshen1 · · Score: 0

      11m ? citation please mother fucker.

    2. Re:Most countries invaded and/or bombed... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Regarding the 11,000,000, I've seen numbers like that as well.
      It's mostly nonsense. Things is how their logic goes:
      The USA is responsible for all the dead in the Korean war because that was the USA's fault by being there was taunting the communists and caused them to invade the south.

      The USA is responsible for all the people killed by the Khmer Rouge because by Cambodia being next door to Vietnam it was destabilized.

      The USA is blamed for the India-Pakistan war and the separation of Bangladesh because guns were used or something like that. I honestly don't understand why USA gets blamed for a Hindu-Muslim war that had been going on since the 1200's in a British colony.

      The USA is responsible for the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan because Jimmy Carter willed it by tricking those ever-gullible Soviets. So, all the people killed by the Soviets are really the USA's fault. and the war-monger Jimmy Carter

      The USA is responsible for everyone killed by South American governments because they're neighbors and wanted them to kill their own people in case they might be communists.

      The USA is responsible for all the wars in Africa in the post WWII European de-colonialization era because. Well, once again I don't see why USA is blamed for Europeans actions in Africa.

      However, there's still some big numbers accrued to the USA.
      The Vietnam War numbers I can accept, because, well, if theyhad walked away it would have been over much sooner.
      The first Desert Storm Iraq war? NO, Saddam gets those numbers, not the USA.
      The second US Iraq invasion?- those numbers are indeed all on the USA's account.
      Afghanistan? The Taliban and al Qaeda were poking a hornet's nest and got what they deserved. Still, goes to the USA's account

  36. Great news for Kim DotCom by haruchai · · Score: 2

    he can apply for amnesty, change his name to General Lardass and asked to be put in charge of Cyber Command.

    --
    Pain is merely failure leaving the body
  37. Wrong solution by Livius · · Score: 2

    Why not simply order then to undergo physical training until they are no longer obese? Most of them would thank you for it.

    (Yes, I know obesity is not that simple, but surely it could be one part of the solution.)

    1. Re:Wrong solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If they wanted to lose weight, they could have done so long ago.
      You can filter out those that are unwilling, but then you risk potentially filtering out the best "cyber warriors".

    2. Re:Wrong solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's almost that simple. If the caloric intake is limited and the P.T. requirements met, I guarantee *anyone* would slim up in time. In the army they can control what you eat just as much as how much P.T. you do, so the usual laundry list of excuses for obesity don't matter.

    3. Re:Wrong solution by Bite+The+Pillow · · Score: 1

      Because people who do not qualify cannot be ordered. You have to lower the criteria, and accept the previously unacceptable, before you can order then to undergo physical training until they are no longer obese.

      Criminal history was mentioned as part of this. You can't basic train someone's arrest for hacking or weed out of the record. So there goes your plan. Try again.

    4. Re:Wrong solution by Livius · · Score: 1

      You could create some kind of conditional enlistment, it would be nearly the same thing.

  38. Re-define "soldier" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The military.com article mentions re-defining "what is considered quality for soldiers." How about re-defining what a soldier is? Instead of fighting a human soldier who invades your country, you're fighting the cyber-efforts of someone who is trying to control a nuclear power plant.

    Think of several famous, highly-skilled software developers. I won't name names, but not many of them would pass the US Army physical fitness test. So even if they were young enough, the Army would reject them.

    Instead of testing IT applicants on ability to run and do pushups, how about this test: Don't let the candidate sleep for 24 hours. Put him/her into a busy, noisy room with lots of distractions. Now make him/her write a fairly complex C program, or analyze a C program for errors. That's a more realistic test of the candidate's ability to do their job.

  39. with training and practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think most desk jockies can train to do 100 situps. Plus the abdominal strength can improve posture and reduce the probability and severity of back injury. Very useful for cyber warriors who may have to sit at at a desk for 14 hours a day.

  40. 2-mile run in under 10 minutes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Do Army Rangers really have to run 2 miles in 10 minutes? That's crazy fast.

    1. Re:2-mile run in under 10 minutes? by Chas · · Score: 1

      No. 40-minute 5 mile is their standard. I've never met a soldier who can run that fast.

      Huh? That's 8 minutes a mile. The standard PT-test 2 mile run is around 16 minutes for someone in their late teens and early 20's.

      As for 5 minute miles (2 miles in 10 minutes)? I've known a couple soldiers that could. But these were guys who were built for running, to the point they actually scored lower in the pushup and situp tests than average.

      The fastest I EVER got was 2 miles in 13. Of course, I was over in Korea at the time and spent the next 20 minutes gacking crap up outta my lungs.

      --


      Chas - The one, the only.
      THANK GOD!!!
  41. No, they're not looking... by PrincipoAzzurro · · Score: 1

    TL;DR: The Army gives zero consideration to a soldier's preference or educational background when assigning careers, even when highly-qualified soldiers are available. ********* From the Article: "We're looking for America's best and brightest just like any Fortune 500 company out there," said Lt. Col. Sharlene Pigg, head of the Jacksonville-based 2nd Recruiting Brigade. "We're looking for those men and women who excel in science, technology, engineering and math." ****** Hmmm. I'm among the enlisted soldiers with a STEM degree from the civilian world (BS - Mechanical Engineering) and 4 years industry experience. I can say for a fact that I received zero incentive to join the military beyond that of a 18 year old high school grad with a 2.0 GPA (save an automatic promotion to E-4 grade which would normally happen in about a year or so after enlistment). Today, 2.5 years into my military career, I have had not one conversation about how my skills from the civilian world could be used to benefit the Army. There is about as much substance to Pigg's argument as there is to the STEM shortage myth in the civilian world. Lt. Col. Pigg presumably wants to use this as a reason to throw more money at the problem in the form of bonus pay and enlistment bonuses, or perhaps to relax the already generous minimum standards for physical fitness instead of utilizing the best and brightest within the ranks who perhaps would be more productive behind a computer than behind the steering wheel of a cargo truck. Another example: I speak Italian and German fluently, yet this is not at all taken into consideration when deciding which soldiers will be stationed in Germany or Italy. Neither is the soldier's preference considered. The Army has a long transition ahead to change an organization of interchangeable warm bodies into an organization of non-interchangeable professionals with dissimilar skill sets and career goals. Any kind of incentive to attract more outside talent would only be a small piece of the puzzle. NOTE: I'm in combat arms because I joined to blow stuff up and play in the mud. If I wanted to sit behind a computer, I could bring in a lot more $$$ and put up with a lot less s*** as a civilian.

  42. different basic training already for doctors... by erikscott · · Score: 1

    Not that different from Doctors (MDs), actually. Their basic is two weeks. Makes sense when you figure their basic probably costs $2-3 per minute.

  43. Army should be part of the solution by iamacat · · Score: 1

    Declare lack of academic and physical fitness of young people a national security problem on par with terrorism. Allocate trillions of budget accordingly to sponsor high quality educational and athletic programs to anyone willing to participate, including free healthy meals. A cost of enrolling all children in a state would be like half of a modern stealth plane.

    Next, reach out to women, LGBT and other unrepresented demographics to consider enlisting. Experience instant boost in highly qualified recruits due to pent up demand just waiting for the right signal.

    As a bonus, this approach will enormously boost the image and respect for US military both at home and abroad. Outcome of a war depends not only on strength of weapons, but also on how scared and traumatized majority of population in war zone perceives american soldiers. If you get outstanding people to enlist, the war will be won without firing many shots.

    1. Re:Army should be part of the solution by Animats · · Score: 1

      Declare lack of academic and physical fitness of young people a national security problem on par with terrorism.

      That was done in the 1950s and 1960s. I give you the Youth Fitness Song, sent to every school in America in 1960.

    2. Re:Army should be part of the solution by psicop · · Score: 0

      Service guarantees citizenship...would you like to know more?

  44. This. by tlambert · · Score: 1

    If they wanted to lose weight, they could have done so long ago.
    You can filter out those that are unwilling, but then you risk potentially filtering out the best "cyber warriors".

    This.

    OCD people can generally accomplish anything they become obsessive about. They typically do not obsess about physical fitness, because it does not engage your brain.

    1. Re:This. by McCat · · Score: 1

      What do you mean, "[physical fitness] does not engage your brain"?

    2. Re:This. by tlambert · · Score: 1

      What do you mean, "[physical fitness] does not engage your brain"?

      It's all muscle memory, once you have your routine down. It doesn't require thinking to accomplish. It's like the cross-country running I did in High School in order to get out of a PE credit so I could take the first CS class that was offered there. I did it because I had to, not because I wanted to.

      If you're into the endorphins/runners high, great. If you're in a team sport that requires strategy and tactics, great. If you're sitting at a Nautilus machine going through a workout routine, you might as well get totally stoned first, because it's going to be your medulla doing all the thinking about moving your muscles; there's no higher brain function involved.

      Some of us find it rather impossible to "just zone out".

    3. Re:This. by mr.mctibbs · · Score: 1

      Many of us who exercise regularly don't do it for the runner's high, but because it can be meditative. Speaking as somebody with ADD, having even a small portion of my brain dedicated exclusively to one task gives me a kind of clarity I haven't found anywhere else.

    4. Re:This. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you're sitting at a Nautilus machine going through a workout routine, you might as well get totally stoned first

      This! I lost a shitload of weight on a recumbent exercise bike by doing just this. Get baked, put on some Netflix, and start pedaling. And then to quench my OCD tendencies, I'd quantify the fuck out of every workout, track everything in a spreadhsheet, create charts, estimate projected results, etc.

      Bike was "Folding Recumbent Bike" for $150 on Amazon. It was shitty but held up for thousands of "miles" before my elderly parents inherited it when I graduated to real outdoor biking. But don't worry, it didn't turn me into one of those douchebag "cyclists". I don't own any spandex and I ride an old mountain bike. I still get thoroughly baked before going out for a cruise.

    5. Re:This. by PPalmgren · · Score: 1

      I'm gonna have to agree with what the GP posted since this line was quite succint:

      Some of us find it rather impossible to "just zone out".

      This is the problem I have with exercise. I agree that it can be meditative, but for me it rarely is and my brain already has to be mush from something else that day. I simply can't turn my mind off. It can make exercise unbearable, not for the phsyical reasons but for the mental reasons. Its very frustrating. I've tried listening to music, but my preferrerd choice of music typically has a high BPM and if I don't watch out, I tend to sync my breathing to the music and hyperventilate.

      Also, I can feel my mental ability leaving me as I exercise and my blood flow gets diverted. Its a really creepy and unnerving feeling.

  45. You're thinking about this wrong. by tlambert · · Score: 1

    It's almost that simple. If the caloric intake is limited and the P.T. requirements met, I guarantee *anyone* would slim up in time. In the army they can control what you eat just as much as how much P.T. you do, so the usual laundry list of excuses for obesity don't matter.

    You're thinking about this wrong.

    Cardio myopathy? Heart murmur? Arterial-venous malformation? Scoliosis? Spina bifida? Multiple Sclerosis? Myasthenia Gravis? Hypertension? Etc.?

    There are many medical reasons for turning inward to concentrate on ones intellect which I will freaking guarantee that you will dedicate yourself to the task, and without the help of Jesus personally laying hands on you, will preclude you from becoming physically fit.

  46. Way to address the 18% and not the 82%! by tlambert · · Score: 1

    Way to address the 18% and not the 82%!

    Given that you're not OK with the 70% remaining people that are currently unqualified, that'll get you another 12.6% overall, instead of 57.4% overall. Way to go for the 22% solution to the 100% of the problem there! Let's see... that'll give you a "C+" grade, on the standard scale... way to overachieve!

    Perhaps you need to hire some otherwise unqualified STEM people to do your math for you, before you start making policy decisions based on your back of the envelope calculations...

  47. I applied, but... by antdude · · Score: 1

    ... They didn't want people with disabilities back when I was younger and applying for IT jobs with them. :(

    --
    Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
    1. Re:I applied, but... by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

      also up or out rules and other BS makes it better to have this not part of the old system. Maybe tech / IT should be on it's own for all of the us gov IT needs.

    2. Re:I applied, but... by antdude · · Score: 1

      Yep. FYI, it's = it (i/ha)s. ;)

      --
      Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
  48. 2-mile run in under 10 minutes? by PrincipoAzzurro · · Score: 1

    No. 40-minute 5 mile is their standard. I've never met a soldier who can run that fast.

  49. Its about more recruits being available for combat by drnb · · Score: 3, Interesting

    ... "Buy it for 250% the cost of doing it in house from the contractor with the most congressmen" compromise ...

    While that is a factor it is exaggerated. The bigger factor, and the military's motivation, in turning to contractors is that fewer recruits have to be used for support and logistics, so more are available for combat specialties. We are seeing the exact same thing here. Highly technical roles filled by those physically unfit for combat, freeing up those recruits who are physically fit for combat specialties. In some ways it is a little bit parallel to the various WW2 Women's Auxiliaries for the various services. The idea at that time was to free a man from a desk job so he could go to the field.

  50. Similar to WW2 Women's Auxiliaries ... by drnb · · Score: 3, Insightful

    In some ways it is similar to the WW2 Women's Auxiliaries that the various services had. The idea back then was to free up a man from a "desk job" so he could be sent to "the front".

    That said, if we need a cyber whatever it could be an entirely different branch of service. These specialists could be placed with the military as needed.

  51. Speaking as a Soldier... by McCat · · Score: 2

    I can understand the logic behind this decision, but I don't think it is the best way to achieve what they want to accomplish. Cyber warfare is the next big up-and-coming thing. It is officially considered one of the "theaters of operation" for warfare now and it seems like every week we hear about some new virus, exploit, or hackers from China breaking into US businesses' networks. Because of this, it makes strategic sense to recruit "cyber warriors" if you will. What doesn't make sense is how it is necessary to loosen the already lax (IMHO) physical standards. I don't consider myself to be a paragon of physical athleticism, but I got a 295/300 on my last PT test. My MOS also requires that I spend almost all of my time sitting at a desk. Despite that, I still keep myself in good shape. Why? Because it's healthy. Because it's good for my body and for my brain. Because there is a certain pride associated with knowing that even though I am a "desk jockey" I can still run, ruck and keep up with the rest of the operational Army. And because if all I did was meet the minimum standard for height/weight and PT, I would quite honestly just be outright fat. Instead of lowering barriers to entry and decreasing the quality of our armed forces, incentivise people. Offer them enlistment bonuses or give them monthly MOS-specific pay for special skills. It will cost more, maybe. But what really has the higher cost: lazy soldiers or better-paid soldiers?

  52. sounds like by doug141 · · Score: 1

    it's time for a new branch of the military.

    1. Re:sounds like by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      it's time for a new branch of the military.

      Maybe you mean a joint command? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U...

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
  53. Excellent news! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The less people able to sign up to kill for the profits of rich old white men, the better the world will be! Especially considering it's the USA!

  54. Air Force is Kicking People Out by loimprevisto · · Score: 1

    The USAF is reducing their forces and kicking out thousands of communications maintenance troops with more than a decade of experience. They're so aggressive about drawing down that they are going after people with very minor 'quality of force indicators', including difficulty with PT tests. Some of these people had already completed the cyber curriculum or were looking to cross train into the new "cyber operations" career field.

    The military will hire people with network exploitation skills as contractors or full time civilians, or they will recruit from their communications troops and through a bunch of money at them for additional training. Right now the individual services have some interesting doctrine being written, but there are very few discussions about their actual strategy for constructing military units in anything but the traditional way of military members sent to schoolhouses supplemented with commercial training.

    The 'good idea faeries' at the DoD talk about recruiting experts who already do this stuff every day to keep US cyberwarfighting ahead of our enemies yet there hasn't been a single actionable plan to actually recruit these people as military members.

    --
    Much Madness is divinest Sense --
    To a discerning Eye --
    Much Sense -- the starkest Madness
  55. Sounds good to me by amyckono · · Score: 1

    Current field soldiers don't need to perform especially well on logic/intelligence tests, so why would a "cyber warrior" need to do especially well in demonstrating physical ability? Won't this make it so people with physical disabilities (amputees for instance) can help defend and maintain this country? I've always personally been interested in military service, but a congenital heart condition ruled that out. I had tested in the 99th percentile on the ASVAB (do they still use those these days?) and actually met with recruiters from the Marines and the Air Force. It was disappointing to find out that the heart problem we thought had resolved itself in early childhood was still present. I'm not at risk of dying, but it does affect physical performance with the lack of oxygenation holding me back. I wonder if someone like me can now join the Army and contribute despite being physically underwhelming.

    1. Re:Sounds good to me by BrokenSoldier · · Score: 1

      Reminds me of the recruitment trip in "Starship Troopers". You may not qualify for much, but they will find SOMETHING for you to do to serve and eventually gain franchise, if you so desire.

      --
      If it's not broken, let's fix it till it is.
  56. Nothing changes except cost of recruit training by drnb · · Score: 1

    Because people who do not qualify cannot be ordered. You have to lower the criteria, and accept the previously unacceptable, before you can order then to undergo physical training until they are no longer obese.

    Lowering the criteria to enter recruit training and maintaining the current criteria for completing recruit training would not change the capabilities of those entering the service. The only real change is higher costs for recruit training. The marginal would just spend more time in recruit training. In the past the services could reduce costs by weeding out the marginal rather than habilitating them. That strategy may not be their best option right now.

  57. Weight issues. by Chas · · Score: 1

    If the military wasn't still using the idiotic BMI, they'd have almost NO weight issues.

    But they've got a standard table of weight and height ratios, as well as tape lengths. This has been formulated against a prototypical 5'6" man with a mesomorphic body type. All they do is scale up and down. Unfortunately this makes several WRONG assumptions about the square/cube effect on human physiology, not to mention it assumes a universal sameness of lean muscle tissue versus skeletal type and other tissue mass.

    Never mind that more than 2/3rds of people simply don't fit the body type standardized upon for the BMI calculations.

    So you have guys with weightlifter physiques who are failing weigh ins and tape tests being assigned "remedial PT". Which only bulks them up MORE.
    Conversely, you have guys with "matchstick" physiques who are actually OVERWEIGHT if they're at their BMI-mandated weight. So they're just being told to "bulk up". Regardless of the fact that they simply CANNOT put on that type of muscle mass, and that they're actually HEALTHIER at a lower weight.

    Even now, 20 years later, this sort of thing still irritates the crap outta me.

    --


    Chas - The one, the only.
    THANK GOD!!!
    1. Re:Weight issues. by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      They've been aware of that issue since I was in back in the 70s. Don't know how it's handled these days, but back then, you'd just go to see the doctor, and get a waiver. It wasn't a big deal.

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
  58. like Alan Turing? by clovis · · Score: 1

    They know there are people like Alan Turing and the men and women codebreakers that performed such a valuable service in WWII
    I read that although Alan was rather athletic, his personality was quite shy and it was unlikely he would thrive as an infantryman.

    From wikipedia and borrowed from other places,
    "Winston Churchill said that Turing made the single biggest contribution to Allied victory in the war against Nazi Germany.Turing's pivotal role in cracking intercepted coded messages enabled the Allies to defeat the Nazis in several crucial battles. It has been estimated that Turing's work shortened the war in Europe by as many as two to four years."

    Hopefully, this time around they will be treated better.
    And hopefully they won't produce another Bradley/Chelsea Manning.

  59. Might be Time to re-enlist by thejuggler · · Score: 1

    I am no longer the lean mean fighting machine of my youth, but I would still love to serve my county. I wonder if I could get back into the Navy now?

  60. Army Irony? by MickWilson7208 · · Score: 1

    Who says the US Army has no discernible sense of humor? The irony of having Lt. Col. Sharlene Pigg quoted regarding the US Army's recruitment of fat hackers cannot be accidental.

  61. Good luck with that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    To each its own I guess. During my two years of military service (not for the US), I found the environment fantastic. No idiot with only a MBA trying to tell me how to program and setting arbitrary goals and deadlines without understanding what is difficult and what is easy, no sales VP changing his mind every two weeks, no coworker trying to suck dicks in order to get a promotion, etc.

    Of course if you like doing quick and sloppy work, if you think good programming is about finding a cool hack that nobody could understand the first time they look at it, than the private sector is obviously where you should go. Oh, and by the way, Ada is the best programming language ever.

  62. The real reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There's a practical reason the Army wants to lower standards for these cyber warriors: money.

    If they just hired more civilian personnel, they would have to pay them 2-4 times what they pay a soldier. This way, they get to give a guy a uniform, and make him feel like he's in the military; while they get to save a nice chunk of change getting these cyber warriors at a discount.

  63. Why does the US army have "cyperwarriors"? by Karmashock · · Score: 1

    I seriously don't even get the point of that. Wouldn't it make more sense to just patch the NSA into the operation? I mean... why does every branch have to half ass something another branch is better at? Every branch has to have its own soldiers, its own planes, its own boats, its own tanks. Totally unreasonable to just call the other branch in to cooperate... right?

    I don't care if the army is having a hard time recruiting computer literate people. That's not their job. If you need to hack something, call the NSA. Enough of this stupidity.

    --
    I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
    1. Re:Why does the US army have "cyperwarriors"? by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      You're almost right, but...

      The United States Cyber Command is a joint (all armed forces) operation. One guess where it operates.

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
  64. How could this go wrong? by CFBMoo1 · · Score: 2

    Dork 1: LOL, I just invaded the Afghanistan instance! Look at em run! LOL!!111
    Dork 2: OMG, I zoned in to the Russian instance! I'm so d3ad!!!1

    Dork2 has died!
    Russian dorks are invading Alaska!

    Dork3: Guyz! WTH u m3ss w/teh Russians?!!1 OMG mah base!111LOL
    Dork1: U got pwnd! LOL!!11

    *Some generals face palm somewhere before the fan gets really dirty*

    --
    ~~ Behold the flying cow with a rail gun! ~~
  65. If we all get fat there will be nobody to fight by hexboris · · Score: 1

    Gimme that bacon. For world peace!

  66. I blame feminism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Keep emasculating men and lowering standards so that women can feel superior. When China invades us they will also blame men of course. Ironically, the only fit ones in the military will be the gays, lol.

  67. Not everyone needs to be an athelete by wcrowe · · Score: 1

    I was in the Navy from the early 80's until the early 90's. When I joined, there seemed to be an understanding that most sailors were, basically, technicians, so once they passed a basic level of fitness, they merely were expected to do their jobs. Then, beginning about 1983 or so, there started to be this concept that everyone needed to get in better shape. Pretty understandable. But by the 90's, that had changed into, "everyone needs to be an athelete". Ridiculous. We need to recognize that the vast majority of the jobs in the military are support or tech roles that do not require excessive stamina or fitness. You cannot on the one hand say that everyone needs to be an athelete, and at the same time say, we're friendly to pregnant females.

    --
    Proverbs 21:19
  68. Fat Geeks are already in the military by docwatson223 · · Score: 1

    They call them 'The US Air Force!"

  69. Re:Its about more recruits being available for com by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The costs of making a communications troop are insanely high aswell. Between recruitment, testing, training, certification, clearence, gear issue, room, board, benefits and dollars in pocket it can easily take 3 years and $500,000 to make a profiecient enlisted troop. When you couple that with the very poor retention rates (generally, due to pt, pay and living conditions, heck I turned down a bonus of $50,000 for 6 more years) you get a situation where the only route to hire those folks back as civillians or contractors. They have to hire the unfit, so they can keep chair's warm.

  70. Its already been tried. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Back before 1976 their was a special group known as ASA (Army Security Agency), and a lot of special things were done for them to keep them. Big army doesn't like special children with special privileges. They neutered the ASA into INSCOM (Intelligence and security command), and with that they lost all the best and brightest within the next 4-6 years as the enlistments ran out, because the imposed the one size fits all mentality, and your always a grunt first. The best and brightest said hell no and bailed. This program is doomed even before it starts, and the best and brightest don't work for the government in any form.

  71. It's because of additional restrictions by dlenmn · · Score: 1

    From what I've read, that number is right, but it's because of additional restrictions. For example, there are restrictions on visible tattoos:

    http://insider.foxnews.com/201...

    IIRC, all people who need to take medication every day are also out. (I know that I'm out for medical reasons, even though I could handle those physical requirements.)

    All the restrictions put together really limits the eligible pool.

  72. Oh, great... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Accepting poorer quality is OK. How American.

  73. Equal Opportunity! by tmjva · · Score: 1

    Why stop at criminal "background" ? They can use criminal "foreground"! They can recruit people CURRENTLY in prison. Additionally it solves any AWOL problem, as they can have 100% supervision, all the time (24/7)! They can also dispense with the expense of firearms training and having to pick up all that brass!

    And what's with all this talk of putting people in positions of power? A cyber-private first-class is no position of power.

    --
    Tracy Johnson
    Old fashioned text games hosted below:
    http://empire.openmpe.com/
    BT
  74. Re:Capable people don't want to be involved. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    in America, we kill in Metric.

    this imperial bullshit is civilian stuff.

  75. Is it just me, or... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...is this the plot to "Police Academy"?

  76. Internet vigilantes unite! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The pen is mightier than the sword. I'm sure a lot of basement dwellers will be happy about this.

  77. Relaxation of physical fitness requirements by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When I was in the U.S. Army I was a signal soldier. I wasn't a Ranger, I wasn't Special Forces. I wasn't the largest soldier, I wasn't the fastest or most intelligent. But, I strove to improve myself. When I went into basic training I was a computer geek. I was trained in digital communications prior to the military. Before basic training I couldn't do a pull up, I could only do 27 push ups and 39 sit ups. Thankfully I was near Junior Olympian in my two mile run (9:47). But I weighed in soaking wet at 153 lbs standing at 6'0" when I graduated basic training. When I separated from the Army in 2010 I was able to do 93 push ups, 112 sit ups and run a two mile in 12:13, I could ruck 10 miles with an 80 lb load in 72 mins (I had been smoking 12 years at this point) and I weighed 180 lbs with 6% body fat and stood at 5'10. In short, my determination and the military turned me into a soldier. They didn't lower their standards for me. In fact my Drill Sergeants and every Non-Commissioned Officer pushed me until I became faster, stronger and a more intelligent individual. Then when I was promoted to Sergeant I was able to push those around me to excel.

    Even though I was a signal soldier (digital and analog communications) I still got into fire fights. You know the geek with the large BCGs and the laptop? The guy with the heavy radio on his back? Yea that was me. Except the military offers laser surgery to correct your eyesight these days. Even though I was a signal soldier, the enemy shot at me. I had to perform combat maneuvers in vehicles and on the ground. I witnessed people die and had to put personal effects into boxes to be shipped home to mothers, fathers, brothers & sisters, wives and children. I felt the anger, hate, fear, anxiety and all the rest of the emotions that come with the territory. My body was broken, battered, bruised and I have life long problems (check the difference in my height as previously stated for a small indication). The reason why I was exposed to combat was because of one simple fact:

    I am an American Soldier.

    I am a Warrior and a member of a team. I serve the people of the United States and live the Army Values.

    I will always place the mission first.

    I will never accept defeat.

    I will never quit.

    I will never leave a fallen comrade.

    I am disciplined, physically and mentally tough, trained and proficient in my warrior tasks and drills. I always maintain my arms, my equipment and myself.

    I am an expert and I am a professional.

    I stand ready to deploy, engage, and destroy the enemies of the United States of America in close combat.

    I am a guardian of freedom and the American way of life.

    I am an American Soldier.

    ~Sgt Henry