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Ken Ham's Ark Torpedoed With Charges of Religious Discrimination
McGruber writes: Back on February 4, "Science Guy" Bill Nye debated Creationist Kenneth Alfred "Ken" Ham. That high-profile debate helped boost support for Ham's $73 million "Ark Encounter" project, allowing Ham to announce on February 25 that a municipal bond offering had raised enough money to begin construction. Nye said he was "heartbroken and sickened for the Commonwealth of Kentucky" after learning that the project would move forward. Nye said the ark would eventually draw more attention to the beliefs of Ham's ministry, which preaches that the Bible's creation story is a true account, and as a result, "voters and taxpayers in Kentucky will eventually see that this is not in their best interest."
In July, the Kentucky Tourism Development Finance Authority unanimously approved $18.25 million worth of tax incentives to keep the ark park afloat. The funds are from a state program that allows eligible tourism attractions a rebate of as much as 25 percent of the investment in the project. Since then, the Ark Park's employment application has became public: "Nestled among the requirements for all job applicants were three troubling obligatory documents: 'Salvation testimony,' 'Creation belief statement,' and a 'Confirmation of your agreement with the AiG statement of faith.' (AiG is Answers in Genesis, Ham's ministry and Ark Encounter's parent company.)"
That caused the Kentucky Tourism, Arts and Heritage Cabinet to halt its issuance of tax incentives for the ark park. Bob Stewart, secretary of the cabinet, wrote to Ham that "the Commonwealth does not provide incentives to any company that discriminates on the basis of religion and we will not make any exception for Ark Encounter, LLC." Before funding could proceed, Stewart explained, "the Commonwealth must have the express written assurance from Ark Encounter, LLC that it will not discriminate in any way on the basis of religion in hiring." The ark park has not yet sunk. It is "still pending before the authority" and a date has not yet been set for the meeting where final approval will be considered.
In July, the Kentucky Tourism Development Finance Authority unanimously approved $18.25 million worth of tax incentives to keep the ark park afloat. The funds are from a state program that allows eligible tourism attractions a rebate of as much as 25 percent of the investment in the project. Since then, the Ark Park's employment application has became public: "Nestled among the requirements for all job applicants were three troubling obligatory documents: 'Salvation testimony,' 'Creation belief statement,' and a 'Confirmation of your agreement with the AiG statement of faith.' (AiG is Answers in Genesis, Ham's ministry and Ark Encounter's parent company.)"
That caused the Kentucky Tourism, Arts and Heritage Cabinet to halt its issuance of tax incentives for the ark park. Bob Stewart, secretary of the cabinet, wrote to Ham that "the Commonwealth does not provide incentives to any company that discriminates on the basis of religion and we will not make any exception for Ark Encounter, LLC." Before funding could proceed, Stewart explained, "the Commonwealth must have the express written assurance from Ark Encounter, LLC that it will not discriminate in any way on the basis of religion in hiring." The ark park has not yet sunk. It is "still pending before the authority" and a date has not yet been set for the meeting where final approval will be considered.
This does not belong on Slashdot.
I know that this site has always been shit. Why do I keep coming here?
Can anyone recommend an alternative?
Maybe a bit of Sanity from Kentucky? I hope so.
I am an atheist, and I was not a Christian to being with. However, after watching the debate just yesterday, I would say that the "arguments" presented by Ham were far more convincing that what Nye put together, and it felt sad. I liked Bill Nye in this other debates on such topics, but he did not bring his "A game" to this debate. There were so many points of view about why a particular scientific theory was more conclusive, or why certain theories fail, but have yet to be to be proven to be as much of a fallacy as "God did it" that Nye could have presented, but he didn't. Even his 30 minute presentation round was lacking in general. This is what allowed even more religious zealots to put even more money into making this all possible, IMO.
I thought, perhaps mistakenly, that I learned a long time ago that the only two states that are commonwealths are Massachusetts and Virginia.
I wonder if Jesus would let unbelievers hang out and help build things... Either these guys don't think he would, or they don't follow Jesus's beliefs.
What is it with liberals hammering away at people they don't agree with?
Even otherwise "perfect" liberals such as Bill Maher are threatened with censorship for daring to speak against received wisdom.
Is there any group more intolerant than self-professed "tolerant" liberals?
proves that "Noah" could not have done it. $18.25M and a year later, and it's still not done? Didn't noah supposedly build it in a fortnight without the aid of modern construction equipment?
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this is literally being built in my grandparents' backyard, directly behind their property
If it's behind their property, then it's not literally being built in their back yard. It's being built on someone else's property.
While such efforts might garner a few more Young-Earth creation believers, the inevitable silliness of it all seems like it might push more people away from religion in general.
Also seems to show every major religious organization tends to be discriminatory – not just rabid dogs like ISIS. This if why organized religion must be confronted, given a chance only right thinking people will be allowed jobs if they had their way. Coercion is fine if it’s in God’s name you know.
Letter To Iran
I've seen this type of thing before. They will just pull the words, get their funding, then when someone apples for the job they will then ask in the interview. If they are "caught" in the interview, they will blame the interviewing person... say "sorry" and continue.
Bill Nye seems like a good dude. But participating in that "debate" was just stupid. It gives the appearance that there are two credible sides to the issue. The only option is to ignore these people. When they decide to join us in the modern era, we will welcome them.
This particular dispute is stupid. The theme park will just remove the offending wording and resubmit it. There's no point to enforcing those restrictions during hiring. After being hired, the employee has to say to the guests what the owners want them to say or get fired. The difference between a Born Again evangelical and an atheist who spouts the beliefs of a Born Again evangelical is a philosophical one.
Religion is the opiate of the masses - Karl Marx
And yet you did feel it such an important story that you posted to it.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
My aunt in Idaho owns a house in a new development where the back of the property opens to a common field with a lake. Her backyard is both the property AND the field. I expect fences to go up if cows ever escape from the nearby fields to drop cow pies near the houses.
Nye said he was "heartbroken and sickened for the Commonwealth of Kentucky"
Duh. Bill. What did you think this was about? An actual debate?
It was a motivational stunt to get the true believers to open their wallet to fund something like this.
"voters and taxpayers in Kentucky will eventually see that this is not in their best interest."
Don't count on it.
That caused the Kentucky Tourism, Arts and Heritage Cabinet to halt its issuance of tax incentives for the ark park.
The bureaucrats, having an actual mission to accomplish have their feet at least partway on the ground. Not so the voters. I predict that withdrawl of these tax breaks will be made a serious issue come election time.
That said, let them have their amusement part. Who cares? We've got Disney World.
Have gnu, will travel.
Yea Nye could be much more condescending. He could have outwardly trashed how stupid and silly it is to believe that the earth was created as the bible says. Six days? Cattle first animals? Where do dinosaurs work there way into the picture? I don't blame Bill for losing the argument, its hard to convince an idiots how dumb they really are.
Liberals tolerate all kinds of idiotic delusional beliefs. They just don't tolerate such beliefs being applied to create laws.
Once known for its fried chicken now for exuding idiocy....
post apocalyptic much? wait, the one in Orlando's still going...
And if God wants a themepark, why does he need tax incentives from Caesar ?
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
They should build it in Florida; they're gonna need it when global warming floods the place.
Table-ized A.I.
It would be toooooo easy to shut this place down with a dedicated team of "applicants" armed with personal voice recorders.
If one studies the Bible one will understand that Jesus Christ ain't a dude who will say *NO!* to the non-believers
In fact, the only character Jesus says *NO!* to is the Satan
There are many stories inside the new testaments which tell us Jesus, before he was killed, was an open-minded kind of dude
I _am_ a Christian, and damn proud to be one, although I ain't a fundie. And as a Christian I do have a duty to correct wrong impressions about Jesus Christ
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
From the previous story I now realize why some folks are so confident in their belief in a "young earth."
Build a replica of the HMS Beagle next to it, Darwin's ship.
Table-ized A.I.
where are my fellow geeks at?!
"The Commonwealth must have the express written assurance from Ark Encounter, LLC that it will not discriminate in any way on the basis of religion in hiring."
Umm... anyone else reminded of this:
Agnes: Pinkie promise?
Gru: Oh yes, my pinkie promises.
Computer over. Virus = very yes.
I can tell you they are well into the site work at the location right off of I-75. Was down that way last Thursday and Friday and they are moving a TON on dirt and are well on their way to getting the site ready for actual construction of the ark.
I do have to wonder, with all the concrete footings, if the floor is actually wood and bowed up at the edges like a true ship hull would have been, so we can watch all the people slide towards the keel where the eliminated swill from the animals would have collected by the ton before it gets carted up several stories to be thrown out the one tiny window. Of course they didn't have steel wheel barrows back then, so they woud have to put the animals to work. You couldn't even hire someone for that these days. No wonder they want to raise the minimum wage!
The Pope seems to be more on the side of Bill Nye in this debate. Huh.
http://www.independent.co.uk/n...
A zealot would follow the example set by the guy that gives the name to his religion. Now, how many contracts has Jesus forced upon others?
This is not a "no true scotsman! fallacy, because the scotsman is from south africa.
But of course you are not really concerned with a religion that says Jesus followers are defined by what they do, you simply want to find justification you don't need to not follow a religion. Each one can spend time the way he sees fit.
After all, wasn't the original ark built by just a few guys with hand tools?
Affirmative action had, at its peak, been the social institution of "blacks are retards with a propensity for not being as smart as anyone, and so they need us to extend a large amount of help to them to elevate them to the level of a human being rather than a chimpanzee."
Interesting, I think most would qualify affirmative action as, "There are a large number of socially conservative idiots in society who will not give minorities a chance because their skin is the wrong color, so we need to pass laws to make ignorant racists give them a chance to pull themselves out of poverty". A person of any race of can achieve anything, but only when given a chance to try.
You are making veil threats about killing liberals for their views, so I am having trouble taking anything you are saying at face value. Why haven't you been flagged as a troll yet?
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
The bible doesn't say how long it took, and does describe Noah's family being involved too. It doesn't rule out the possibility that Noah was loaded and hired hundreds of workers to help out. It wouldn't matter though, as a wooden ship that size is structurally impossible.
not that this matters, but....
A literal reading seems to indicate that it took Noah somewhere between 50 and 120 years to build the ark.
FWIW, there's a common misconception (hah!) that they were on-board for 40 days.
The Bible states 40 days/nights of raid, and then nearly a full year of floating around.
What does it matter what anyone believes about the origins of humanity? Why does Nye feel so threatened that he seeks to attack? If every future physicist learns that Poo-Poo the monkey boy was bitten by a radioactive alien and became the first human, how does that alter physics? Chemistry? Engineering? What's Nye afraid of?
And that's why I come here
If you're hanging out building stuff with Jesus Christ, getting drunk off his water and enjoying the never-ending fish sandwiches, I think maybe you're going to be in the 'believer' camp.
Should an employer not be concerned who his/her employees are. If you have a religious themed park you want to make sure the employees will reflect those values. I believe he has a right to make sure the employees will not say anything that will distract that. Those requirements do not reflect anyone religion. A Jew or Muslim can also hold those values.
Because we're sick of the admins killing this site. If you'd been here in 2001, you would have seen a Slashdot that knew about what was going on in Silicon Valley before it hit newspapers. Now we're getting news from newspapers a few days after the fact because the people who are in the know have been chased off, and Slashdot has lost its reputability.
One of the proudest days of my life was when my dissertation was FP'd on Slashdot. There was a lively discussion, but I have to admit, reddit had it in several subs before Slashdot had it, and reddit got it from BBC, NBC, CBS, and they got it from New Scientist. Slashdot was like a full week after this became news.
I used to send real emails to CmdrTaco, and get real emails back, and he would show up on Slashdot and discuss the direction the community was going in. What did Slashdot users want? How does Slashdot stay relevant?
Now they're pandering to a demographic that couldn't give two shits about computer science.
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Ethiopia, about 3 million years ago. Rift Valley flooding/drought/flooding/drought/fl... etc. More than likely these events raised our brain cc from ~700 to ~1600. At least it correlates very well, and there aren't many other contenders for forcings (other than "general drying", but that's what would have got us out of the trees 3 million years earlier).
I've made the occaisional conjecture that it could be the oldest story in our history (it's what freaked us out and made our species adapt or die, which is what you said and why I'm replying :) and as we would have already been a self-conscious species by then, it therefore remains psychologically powerful. Also jives with the most extreme theories as to the time of the birth of language.
See, the creationists are going about this all wrong. What they need is a meta-theme park, where you go and spend time with a Jewish carpenter wearing hippy clothes who peaches to you all day about God and love while you help him build an Ark-based theme park.
See, in this way you get lots of free labour to build your theme park from all the True Believers, and should any heathens get in, you get to have hippy carpenter guy preach the good word to them all day.
The only drawback to all this is it means Mr. Ham would have to employ someone who is Jewish, and he might feel that is against God's divine will.
Yaz
I don't know why the State got involved in funding the park in the first place (it is a pretty obvious potential conflict with their first amendment duties, but then again, this is Kentucky), but for it to even sneak by constitutional muster, employees cannot be discriminated against because of their religious beliefs.
So, if you let employees walk around and talk about Noah's flood and all that Jazz, you have to give other employees equal rights to talk about how it is a myth likely originating in the flood plains of Mesopotamia that the "decedents of Abraham" brought to Palestine.
Of course, the sensible thing would have been to not have involved the government in the park in the first place. I am sure there are plenty of young-earth creationists out there that Ham can scam.
I'm shocked that the article seems to object to tax subsidies to one commercial enterprise because it talks about the flood and Biblical accuracy while (most likely) not objecting to the same subsidies if paid to disneyland to promote mickey mouse
An atheist park or museum would not want someone professing anything but the Darwinian Gospel. Now that's also religious discrimination folks. See how the shoe fits on the other foot. Also willing to bet that in today's demented 'merica, an Islamic, Hindu or Buddhist park would get double funding in a heartbeat. Just saying.
In the original story ( Gilgamesh ) it was a week, in the re-telling the character Noah started at 500 years old and finished when he was 600.
well, you'd better get reading the article then because thats not the reason. or maybe your comprehension is lacking
"The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
So Judaism is UNIX.
Christianity is Microsoft (embrace and extend)
Islam is SCO (copy, claim, and wage holy war the guys you stole it from)
The BBC built an ark a year or so ago, I think in India, according to something like the original instructions. (A recently translated clay tablet). Couldn't they just buy that one? I don't think the BBC wants to hang onto it.
Will
"Religion". You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. Nye has no patience for people who deny climate change because they're flat-out, provably, scientifically-settled wrong. It's like someone being expected to have patience with someone insisting the sky is yellow with purple polka dots. (Although, you might have patience with them because they're clearly deranged mentally. Do your own comparison of the zealots and the mentally ill here.)
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
...than any other Religious-based organization?
A church can't be forced to hire a non-believer.
They can choose to do so...
A Christian training park for Christian terrorist
So universities and science museums would be fine hiring a Creationist professor or curator? How about department head or lead curator? They also receive public funds. I am not a creationist. I just want to make sure we use zealot equally among belief systems.
http://beta.slashdot.org/story/209109
A set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/religion
No, I'm pretty sure I knew what I was talking about.
No one denies climate change, not even the deniers. The climate has been changing since the Earth was formed. Bill Nye is fighting a straw man. What the deniers dispute is humans having a majoritive effect on climate change. The science on that is not settled, especially when new papers are being published trying to explain a hiatus in the warming trend and the significance of the oceans in the atmospheric temperature. If the science on that was settled there would be no use for continued research.
Somebody needs to build a tourism spot promoting the true events of Greek myths, right there in Kentucky. Yeah. Anyone who complains, has to explain why this is definitely not true events but the Biblical creation account (which doesn't even jive with the original Gilgamesh one) is true.
...of simpler times hundreds of years ago...
Stick Men
I reiterate that you are a slobbering mouth breather, and now I append the honorific of 'grammar Nazi'. While you have diagrammed your sentence with such skill that freshman English teachers everywhere are getting erections, you overlook that fact that using correct grammar doesn't mean that you have expressed yourself in any clear or elegant fashion.
If your statement was written by someone who had the intellectual capacity of at least a third grader, it my be thus:
"I have the greatest understanding for anyone who wishes to excise from their lives, such views and the people possessing them."
Mind you, your poor sentence structure is the least of your faults. I would point out the generalizations you attribute to 'Liberal Democrats' sound wholly out of character for a people who are normally generalized as socially progressive, and sound more like the statements that might be made by an astroturfing tea party member who secretly follows KKK propaganda.
But by all means, continue attributing your bizarre interpretation of Affirmative action to others, it doesn't sound strange at all. Additional insulting boilerplate I couldn't be bothered with here.
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
By my laymen's education on the subject, I do believe it means they double and triple tax the shit out of you while providing fewer services than non-commonwealth states.
1) A scientific mindset is not a set of beliefs. Scientists do not worship what they cannot understand; they only seek to understand it.
2) Scientists do not consider the cause or purpose of the universe, only its nature. Cause or purpose implies an intelligent creator. We do not have any objective evidence that one exists. The Bible is not objective evidence, only philosophy, narrative, and metaphor. Even if it were, the current versions of the work have been translated and interpreted so many times by so many people with so many different agendas to push that the original meaning has been lost for thousands of years.
3) There is no objective evidence that a superhuman agency or agencies created the universe. There is conjecture and hypothesis. The problem is that the zealots insist that you prove a negative when you express an opinion on the subject. As we all know, proving a negative is impossible. Thinking that something is possible doesn't mean you believe it to actually be the case. We do not know what was happening before the Big Bang happened, as current technology does not exist to look beyond the singularity. Nothing can be proven or disproven about the origin of the Big Bang at the moment, and that is not a concession of a weak argument; the three most important words in science are "I don't know".
4) Exactly what devotional and ritual observances do scientists engage in? The closest I can come up with is getting your morning coffee.
5) Scientifically based solutions and practices are not the same as a moral code. Morals are arbitrary rules of conduct that a particular slice of humanity has decided are worth upholding, and as such, cannot by definition be associated with science. Nothing in science says you can't have sex before marriage, for example, or stone the gays to death, or beat your wife, or kill your slaves..
I'm positive you don't know what you're talking about.
It's settled. Getting 97% of scientists to agree on something is virtually impossible if there is no objective evidence. CO2 in the atmosphere makes temperatures rise. We're dumping CO2 into the atmosphere by the billions of tons. Therefore, more heat from the sun is trapped in the atmosphere, making global temperature rise. Honestly, it's not a difficult concept, and if you need an example of a greenhouse effect gone mad, take a look at Venus. It's like 863 degrees F / 462 degrees C on the surface, in large part to the atmosphere being 96% CO2. The origins of the high levels of CO2 on Venus are different from those on Earth, but they share a similar problem in that there is insufficient biomass to recapture the carbon in the atmosphere.
Please link to some of those papers; if they're not in reputable peer-reviewed publications, though, don't bother.
You are failing to grasp the nature of scientific endeavor. We will never know everything about a particular topic; there is always more knowledge to be obtained. If 97% (or even a significant majority) of the new research contradicts the human-caused theory of global warming, then a conclusio
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
Liberal Democrats are not simple social progressives. The country is run by........
Sorry, could you repeat that? I nodded of during your tangential gibbering about political labeling. You should sell it to people with sleep disorders, you could make a killing.
I see more than the packaged deal. I see more than two parties where the two names are used. I see more than two positions active in our government and in our politics. I see society's sentiments, behaviors, and moods. That you wish to ignore these occludes the reality of our recent history and our modern struggles to your view.
I see someone who starts sentences with 'I see...' way too much. I see someone who wants to replace Mr Luther King Jr's speech writers. I see someone who claims to have a worldview that includes a plurality of political interests, and still attributes negative generalizations to 'Liberal Democrats'. In short, I see a pompous ass who loves the sound of his own voice.
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!