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Help a Journalist With An NFC Chip Implant Violate His Own Privacy and Security

An anonymous reader writes: His wife thinks he's crazy, but this guy got an NFC chip implanted in his arm, where it will stay for at least a year. He's inviting everyone to come up with uses for it. Especially ones that violate his privacy and security. There must be something better to do than getting into the office or unlocking your work PC.

He says, "The chip we are using is the xNTi, an NFC type 2 NTAG216, which is about the size of a grain of rice and is manufactured by the Dutch semiconductor company NXP, maker of the NFC chip for the new iPhone. It is a glass transponder with an operating frequency of 13.56MHz, developed for mass-market applications such as retail, gaming and consumer electronics. ... The chip's storage capacity is pretty limited, the UID (unique identifier) is 7 bytes, while the read/write memory is 888 bytes. It can be secured with a 32-bit password and can be overwritten about 100,000 times, by which point the memory will be quite worn. Data transmission takes place at a baud rate of 106 kbit/s and the chip is readable up to 10 centimeters, though it is possible to boost that distance."

142 comments

  1. Small Government Mandate by howzermyhamit · · Score: 4, Funny

    I'm sure our local superhero cold fjord can tell us why a Small, Libertarian-Approved State should mandate the installation of these on all citizens and civilians.

    Well? We're waiting, my friend.

    1. Re:Small Government Mandate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Bennett Hasselhoff, a frequency counter, will be along shortly to provide Insight.

    2. Re:Small Government Mandate by JazzHarper · · Score: 2

      A libertarian state would never permit, much less mandate, such a thing.

    3. Re:Small Government Mandate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Informative

      Once again proving how easy it is to troll libertardians. Libertardian queen Ayn Rand also whined and complained about socialism and welfare but then had no qualms pulling social security when she got older.

    4. Re:Small Government Mandate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But cold fjord has claimed that it's possible to be for such a thing (and the NSA's mass surveillance, the TSA, bans on sexual drawings of children, and a number of other things) and still want limited government.

    5. Re: Small Government Mandate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "Why not. It's her money."

      Because principles, motherfucker. If you spent your life whining about how money was taken from you in order to provide yourself a retirement in your old age then you should at the point of old age prove how right you are by completely living without it.

      Retiring by your own bootstraps.

    6. Re: Small Government Mandate by Spy+Handler · · Score: 0

      Well at least it's not like Al Gore preaching to everyone to reduce their carbon footprint while flying around in a private jet and living large in a mansion. Rand was forced to make SS payments. Nobody forced algore into a Gulfstream.

    7. Re:Small Government Mandate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A libertarian state would never permit ... such a thing.

      And there I was thinking a libertarian state would permit individuals to have anything injected into their bodies they chose...

    8. Re:Small Government Mandate by Spy+Handler · · Score: 1

      No libertarian wants that. Libertarianism is the exact opposite of big government surveillance. Hell, even Obama and Nancy Pelosi probably wouldn't approve of gov't implanting chips on citizens.

    9. Re:Small Government Mandate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well this is damn inconvenient ... we were all set up and about to kidnap this guy. :/

    10. Re:Small Government Mandate by AK+Marc · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A libertarian state would pass laws banning people from having the freedom to implant themselves with an RFID? What a totalitarian distopian libertarian world you long for.

    11. Re:Small Government Mandate by JazzHarper · · Score: 1

      Are you being obtuse deliberately?

    12. Re:Small Government Mandate by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Why is Nancy Pelosi the demon of all conservatives? I just saw the NRA campaign against Staci Appel. Plastered all over the conservative blogs. Why do the conservatives hate women? I haven't met a conservative that didn't hate Nancy Pelosi or Hillary Clinton. Women should stay home with the kids?

    13. Re:Small Government Mandate by Capsaicin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Hell, even Obama and Nancy Pelosi probably wouldn't approve of gov't implanting chips on citizens.

      Hell, who needs implants when people voluntarily carry around Android and/or iOS devices everywhere they go?

      --
      Better to be despised for too anxious apprehensions, than ruined by too confident a security. --Edmund Burke
    14. Re:Small Government Mandate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Conservatives hate Nancy Pelosi and Hillary Clinton.
      Nancy Pelosi and Hillary Clinton are women.
      Therefore, conservatives hate women.

      Additionally,
      the conservatives I know hate Nancy Pelosi and Hillary Clinton.
      Therefore, ALL conservatives hate women.

      You, my friend, are going into my lecture about logic. I suspect my high school students will do better than you did just here.

    15. Re:Small Government Mandate by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Every comment about libertarians is obtuse, yours included.

    16. Re:Small Government Mandate by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Conservatives single out the women in congress to attack. Why?

    17. Re:Small Government Mandate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      cold fjord, who claims to be for Small Government, wants many things similar to that (the NSA's mass surveillance, the TSA, etc.). The one you replied to was merely praising cold fjord for being such a consistent, heroic individual.

    18. Re:Small Government Mandate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Actually the US has a "pay-behind" Social Security system. Each generation pays for the previous generation's Social Security benefits, so no, it wasn't "her money".

    19. Re:Small Government Mandate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Obtuse? You wrote that "[a] libertarian state would never permit" installing these. That struck me as odd too. Sure it wouldn't "mandate" it, but surely a libertarian state would permit installation of these on any or all of it's citizens if they so decided.

      Maybe you didn't mean what you wrote?

    20. Re:Small Government Mandate by stephanruby · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A chip embedded in your arm is meaningless without context. Take for example, an Holocaust survivor with a tattooed number on his arm. Or take a person with a safety tattoo listing all the things he's deadly allergic to. Neither of those things are the same as a journalist being tattooed with a meaningless number on his arm.

      If those ten volunteers were really serious about testing the technology in a negative light, they should just spent some time as prisoners in a real prison where everything gets tracked and counted by NFC readers at the very least. The Type II tag itself has such a small amount of memory, it can't really be used for any serious authentication outside of a closed loop system like a prison environment.

      At best outside of prison use, this NFC tag could link to a shortened url, or contain such information as a Twitter handle, or a LinkedIn user name.

    21. Re: Small Government Mandate by Altrag · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Being a hypocrite doesn't invalidate what he was saying.

    22. Re:Small Government Mandate by gbjbaanb · · Score: 2

      possibly group bias - same reason women get attacked on twitter.

      If I know there are people out there who will attack women for no reason, then I can happily attack women knowing that I will get a ton of others joining in. It validates my sense of importance within a group and gives me the sense of safety from my actions because they are shared by a large number of others.

      This self-fulfilment is why I think it happens, and why the bully only attacks the weak - they know they will get other bullies joining in. If they attacked someone popular, they know they wouldn't get the same level of support, so they don't.

      I'll leave it to you to decide if politicians are of the same maturity level as school bullies :-)

    23. Re: Small Government Mandate by PhilHibbs · · Score: 1

      The money's gone. It was given to the previous generation. How do you stop a pension system where each generation pays for the previous one, without one generation getting a raw deal (they paid for the previous generation, but don't get anything themselves)?

    24. Re:Small Government Mandate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Hell, even Obama and Nancy Pelosi probably wouldn't approve of gov't implanting chips on citizens.

      Hell, who needs implants when people voluntarily carry around Android and/or iOS devices everywhere they go?

      This.

      Never in the history of the agency has work been so fucking easy for the likes of the CIA, FBI, and NSA. It's rather sad they still have to break so many laws to do their job.

      It's downright disgusting how much We the People give a shit that they do.

    25. Re:Small Government Mandate by Charliemopps · · Score: 1

      There is no "permit" in Libertarian ideals. You're free to be stupid enough to install such a thing. But likewise you're right, there would be no mandate either. And before anyone jumps to the obvious conclusion, yes, if corporations indirectly mandate it by insisting you need one of these installed to buy services or goods, that's still a mandate and should be opposed by the Libertarian party. Chains are chains. The wall they secure you to is irrelevant.

      The fake Libertarians in the Republican party may have other ideas, I wouldn't know.

    26. Re:Small Government Mandate by Charliemopps · · Score: 1

      It's easy to troll anyone. You just have to know what they care about / are sensitive to and attack that.

    27. Re: Small Government Mandate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I demonstrates he doesn't believe what he is saying.

    28. Re: Small Government Mandate by azereal · · Score: 1

      Consuming a smaller amount of fossil fuels to prevent the use of a larger amount of fossil fuels is not hypocritical. I would call it good maths.

    29. Re:Small Government Mandate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So maybe I don't understand this (not a troll not an Ayn Rand fan) she paid for the previous generation ..... and when it was her turn to get social security she took the money she had paid to others?

    30. Re:Small Government Mandate by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

      and then the mark of the beast people will sue to stop that from happening.

    31. Re:Small Government Mandate by benjamindees · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Actually, Rand was almost exactly in the middle of the generation that paid for Social Security twice. The first benefits began in 1940. The first generation of retirees were paid directly out of the treasury. The actual SS taxes that Rand paid went into the "trust fund," which was later loaned out to other government agencies, to pay for war mostly.

      --
      "I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
    32. Re:Small Government Mandate by Wootery · · Score: 1

      No-one is being obtuse. You really did suggest that a libertarian government would ban such devices.

      A libertarian state would never permit, much less mandate, such a thing.

      Remember?

    33. Re:Small Government Mandate by Wootery · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The fake Libertarians in the Republican party may have other ideas, I wouldn't know.

      Sure you do. You've heard of the Iraq War, right? The principle of minimal government ceases to apply when it's a cause you happen to like, such as pre-emptive war or corporate subsidies.

    34. Re:Small Government Mandate by skids · · Score: 1

      As long as the contents can be linked back to the individual, it just takes NFC communicators next to places where people put their hands to track the individual's actions. The short range gives you a bit more information than just tracing their smartphone -- e.g. if you have an NFC collector tacked to the bottom of a public keypad, you can be pretty sure that person was using that keypad, as opposed to just standing around in the region. Granted given most places can also be covered with a camera and nobody will complain, there are other ways to obtain such information, but this way can be fully automated.

    35. Re: Small Government Mandate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unless we're talking about sex (and even then sometimes) the words "man" and "woman" are usually interchangeable and the generic "man" is taken to mean "person." Don't worry, they'll go over this again in English class when you get to middle school.

    36. Re: Small Government Mandate by fche · · Score: 1

      "money was taken from you in order to provide yourself a retirement in your old age"

      That relationship is only putatively causal. The money taken from "you" has already been spent, several times over.

    37. Re: Small Government Mandate by misterthirsty · · Score: 1

      Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.) Walt Whitman

    38. Re: Small Government Mandate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you spent your life whining about how money was taken from you in order to provide yourself a retirement in your old age then you should at the point of old age prove how right you are by completely living without it.

      Retiring by your own bootstraps.

      I think the idea here is that with the money that is taken from every paycheck for SS and a little individual responsibility, you could save/invest the money better and prepare for retirement yourself. Unfortunately, Ayn Rand didn't have a choice to opt out of SS and prove how right she was. What you are suggesting she should have done wouldn't be principled, it would be ignorant.

    39. Re:Small Government Mandate by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      a libertarian state would never do such a think. you have libertarian and totalitarian mixed up

      and cold is no libertarian, he is an authoritarian

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    40. Re:Small Government Mandate by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      do you not remember all the sarah palin hate? why do democrats hate women???

      the rand hate above, why all the women hate???

      long story short, just stop. you sound like an idiot when you make disingenuous statements to try and prove your point

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    41. Re:Small Government Mandate by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      do they? I had no idea bill clinton was a woman... or obama... or harry reid...

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    42. Re:Small Government Mandate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For once the religious right proves it's usefulness.

    43. Re: Small Government Mandate by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      Being a Hypocrite doesn't support what he was saying either. In fact, it lends itself to the opposite (not proof, but evidence), Al Gore was in the AGW game for personal gain, an not to save the planet. Even though he might actually believe he was saving the planet, but flying around in big planes and heating mansions with Natural gas (CO2 gas producer) simply means he is trying to make OTHERS save the planet, while he does more harm in a month than I do in a year (assuming he is right about CO2 emissions and Greenhouse gases) .

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    44. Re: Small Government Mandate by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      And heating his mansions with Natural Gas is what? Carbon Trading is nothing but a sham investment scheme he is also benefiting from ... economically, so don't bother claiming that either.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    45. Re:Small Government Mandate by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      Or how about the "'Escort whore out the door'..." comment recently made by Democratic gubernatorial candidate Vincet Sheheent about Republican Gov. Nikki Haley (the "whore").

      Where is NOW? Where is Eric Holder looking for violations of Civil Rights Laws? Where is the front page outrage on the NYT? Where is "war on women" battle cry?

      Democrats don't care about women. They care about Liberal Women, and only liberal women. All others are not worthy. The most sexist people I know are liberals who view women as objects of sexual desire (like Bill Clinton), but liberal women love being sexually desired, so it is symbiotic parasitical relationship.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    46. Re: Small Government Mandate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Government can be defined as the (natural) local monopoly on the use of force. So that the strong should not harm the weak, we have rules about how force may be employed.

      Non-coercive government is an oxymoron. What you want is anarchy. If we ever get to the point where men are incapable of harming each other, then we can talk about non-coercive government.

      Let's be clear: if you ever got what you wanted, you would simply be creating a power vacuum for someone to step into. I would definitely be in favor of getting a group together to coerce the hell out of you, and that would be all it took to destroy your little fantasy, and incidentally, to start the process of coercive government all over again.

    47. Re:Small Government Mandate by Charliemopps · · Score: 1

      The fake Libertarians in the Republican party may have other ideas, I wouldn't know.

      Sure you do. You've heard of the Iraq War, right? The principle of minimal government ceases to apply when it's a cause you happen to like, such as pre-emptive war or corporate subsidies.

      You basically just restated what I'd said. They pick and choose whichever political affiliation suits their current knee jerk reaction. My point was that, often when discussing Libertarian principles, people get the party confused with the republicans who seem to support some of these principles when they suit their agenda. For example they'd like to free us from big government but seem to have no problem with control by big business.

      And don't pretend like the democrats are any different. If you hadn't noticed, we're right back to bombing Iraq under Obama. We'll continue to mettle in Middle East affairs until we run out of money or we get the (D)/(R) party out of office. There hasn't been any real difference between the parties for nearly 100 years.

    48. Re:Small Government Mandate by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      Bennett Hasselhoff, a frequency counter, will be along shortly to provide Insight.

      I knew he was a frequent contributor, but I didn't know he was a frequency counter too.

    49. Re:Small Government Mandate by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      My point was that, often when discussing Libertarian principles, people get the party confused with the republicans who seem to support some of these principles when they suit their agenda. For example they'd like to free us from big government but seem to have no problem with control by big business.

      Pretty much this. The problem is that many people who talk about Libertarians wouldn't know an actual Libertarian principle if it bit them on the ass, because the other parties have deliberately distorted what those principles are.

      The worst offenders in that respect are clearly the Democrats, because Libertarians will never, ever, agree with them about big government. In that respect Republicans have at least some overlap of views.

      But the Democrats shoot themselves in the foot by demonizing Libertarians, because the Libertarians are "on their side", more or less, when it comes to social regulation.

      The largest voting block in the United States right now (~ 40%) is "Independent", most of which are Libertarian-leaning to some degree. There are reasons for that. It didn't "just happen"... people are waking up to what the Reps and Dems have been doing. But the Republicans definitely did muddy the waters by swallowing up and then subverting some movements that started out libertarian, like the Tea Party.

    50. Re:Small Government Mandate by JasonGoatcher · · Score: 1

      Once again proving how easy it is to troll libertardians. Libertardian queen Ayn Rand also whined and complained about socialism and welfare but then had no qualms pulling social security when she got older.

      It's not hypocritical of her at all. If I can benefit from a government program, then I will, but that doesn't mean I approve of it's existence. It would be like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

    51. Re: Small Government Mandate by JasonGoatcher · · Score: 1

      The money's gone. It was given to the previous generation. How do you stop a pension system where each generation pays for the previous one, without one generation getting a raw deal (they paid for the previous generation, but don't get anything themselves)?

      Give the higher ups in the IRS the death penalty and I think most of us will be willing to move on from there.

    52. Re:Small Government Mandate by stephanruby · · Score: 1

      -- e.g. if you have an NFC collector tacked to the bottom of a public keypad, you can be pretty sure that person was using that keypad,

      Actually, in this case you couldn't. With RFID yes, but with NFC no.

      Even if the user was actually left-handed and even if the keypad NFC scanner was really powerful, with the small geometric size of the tag, the tag would need to be placed at the finger tip for that kind of thing to work (without the user knowing that he was being scanned), or the embedded tag would have to be bigger.

      Either, your main point still remains. All you would need is indeed a unique id.

    53. Re: Small Government Mandate by The+Ickle+Jones · · Score: 1

      No, it doesn't. It could mean that he's too lazy to act, or that his priorities need adjusting, but it does not necessarily indicate that he doesn't believe what he's saying.

    54. Re:Small Government Mandate by strikethree · · Score: 1

      Actually the US has a "pay-behind" Social Security system. Each generation pays for the previous generation's Social Security benefits, so no, it wasn't "her money".

      Well, actually, until 1980, it was NOT a pay-behind system. It was not until congress looted the Social Security in 1980 that it became pay-behind. It is criminal. It was her money.

      --
      "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
    55. Re: Small Government Mandate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There will always be a last generation. In the event of ww3 the last generation won't need a pension ;-). #itsajoke.

    56. Re:Small Government Mandate by skids · · Score: 1

      Well, IIRC it is stated in TFA with the right equipment the range could be extended up to several centimeters or perhaps more. Not sure how accurate that statement is though.

      Enough to, say, be pretty disturbing if coupled to a sensor for metabolites in a urinal.

    57. Re: Small Government Mandate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I[t] demonstrates he doesn't believe what he is saying.

      Do you seriously believe that?

      If I were to say that "eating these steamed vegetables on rice is better for your health than eating this southern fried chicken and onion rings," and then proceed to tuck into the chicken (and those tempting onion rings of course) you seriously believe that demonstrates either or both of:

      • a) the fried food is better for your health than the steamed vegetables
      • b) I believe the fried food is better for my health than the steamed vegetables

      I tell you what I actually believe ...I believe, that anyone who thinks Al Gore's flying (which I would have thought had been paid for with carbon offsets in any case) is in the least bit probative of science, or of Al Gore's acceptance of science, seriously needs to learn how to think.

    58. Re: Small Government Mandate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Being a Hypocrite doesn't support what he was saying either. In fact, it lends itself to the opposite (not proof, but evidence)

      Firstly is he actually a hypocrite? Aren't all his uses of fossil fuel accounted for by the carbon offsets he purchases? Does he not in fact have a smaller carbon footprint than you or I? Of course, being a billionaire makes this much easier for him, than it is for you or I (can you afford carbon offsets for your energy use, I know I can't. Does that mean I have to reject modern science in favour of wishful thinking lest I be branded a hypocrite?

      Secondly, and more to the point. Putting to one side that this is a renowned fallacy ... in light of the overwhelming empirical evidence for "what he is saying" the probative value of this "evidence" is rapidly approaching zero.

      Al Gore was in the AGW game for personal gain, an not to save the planet. Even though he might actually believe he was saving the planet ...

      You seem to be all over the place there. First sentence is shrinkingly unlikely, second negates all that went before. Wishful thinking will do that to your reasoning.

    59. Re:Small Government Mandate by anyGould · · Score: 1

      Yep. Remember her premise was that only the weak needed socialism and welfare, and that it was evil. I would respect her a lot more if she hadn't shown her hypocrisy at the end, and had accepted her end (and obvious failure to take care of herself according to her libertarian principles.

      (For comparison, consider if Ghandi had raised an army in his later years. Kinda ruins the point of non-violent resistance, yes?)

  2. 888 bytes is a pretty fair amount. by wierd_w · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It seems small, when we think about data these days being in the multi-gigabytes, but 888 bytes is AMPLE to completely destroy the security of your legal identity.

    Say, a social security number: 9 bytes.
    A telephone number, with area code: 10 bytes
    Full name, assuming a null padded, 3 entry struct with 15char max strings and 2 delimiter bytes: 47 bytes
    Address, assuming 4 lines with 20 chars each (with null padding as needed)-- 40 bytes.

    All that, and we are only about 1/7 to 1/8th of the data memory, or about 106 bytes.

    One could squeeze a shortened URL to a facebook page, and quite a bit else in that space, such as DL number, credit card number, cellphone number, email address, and whatnot.

    888 bytes can hold a LOT of very dangerous information.

    1. Re:888 bytes is a pretty fair amount. by wierd_w · · Score: 1

      Correction--- 4 lines, 20 chars each is 80 bytes, not 40. So, about 146 bytes. About 1/6th the space.

    2. Re:888 bytes is a pretty fair amount. by Vellmont · · Score: 1

      With the exception of the SS#, most of that data is publicly available on the internet for most people. If you know someones name, it's very easy to find someones phone#, address, birth date, relatives, former addresses, etc.

      We don't live in as private a world as you're assuming.

      --
      AccountKiller
    3. Re:888 bytes is a pretty fair amount. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For most people, but not for everyone. Also, if all they have is your name, and your name is common, they may have difficulty finding the correct information.

    4. Re:888 bytes is a pretty fair amount. by wierd_w · · Score: 1

      Oh, I know most information is available with much digging online. The point here, was that the journalist WANTS to advertise his personal data, to create a story sensation.

      Putting a live credit card number ( for a prepaid card, obviously) and some other interesting tidbits on that thing, with a tinyURL shortened web address to basically an otherwise unpublicised hit counter that then forwards again to a facebook page would let him get not only some analytics on how many actual people have accessed his NFC chip, and the records for credit card abuse would let him see how foolish putting clear text card info out, no matter how short range, is.

      888 bytes is a lot of space for some damaging data.

    5. Re:888 bytes is a pretty fair amount. by beelsebob · · Score: 1

      An SS number is 9 digits. That's 30 bits (round to 4 bytes if you want), not 9.
      A telephone number is 34 bits (5 bytes if you want to round)

    6. Re:888 bytes is a pretty fair amount. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A 2048 bit SSH key is 256 bytes. So you could fit 3 of those keys (or a key with additional length).

      Not sure how much else I'd want to be carrying around. I mean, if I am going to use this for security purposes, I see no reason to waste space with a 10 byte American/Canadian phone number (wastefully taking eight whole bits for each digit). Other people could mimic that easily.

      I'm also not really interested in any other less secure methods of identifying myself.
      I certainly wouldn't want anybody else to be able to post with my name ("Anonymous Coward"). All my thoughts are my own.

      I suppose a URL could be handy, so that the reader(s) can obtain additional useful info.
      If there's a limit to 888 bytes, I certainly don't want to limit myself to a small amount of pre-specified fields... I would hope the readers have some protocol (and connectivity) to then go gather whatever other info is actually useful, using some sort of expandable method where I can choose whatever additional info I want to be sharing. No reason to limit myself to 888 bytes.

    7. Re:888 bytes is a pretty fair amount. by wierd_w · · Score: 0

      Thats assuming efficient encoding, and not clear text encoding. Clear text encoding would consume the full 9 bytes, as each digit consumes a full byte.

      You will still have to include a delimiter or other landmark termination byte, such as a null terminator, to indicate the end of the string to make sensible use of efficiently packed data.

    8. Re:888 bytes is a pretty fair amount. by wierd_w · · Score: 1

      You're not thinking about all possible intended use cases for this.

      One major one, would be "Identify discovered dead body", for the EMS. Say, for a drowning victim that has washed down a river during flooding, and clothing and other identifying documentation has been lost. In which case, you want to store useful information about the corpse, such as name, address, telephone number, etc. That's why I encluded it. URL entry could point to a national database entry for additional queries. The coroner just needs to NFC scan the corpse, and he has a positive ID.

      Well meaning government regulators may require the implantation of such permanent identification measures, and like all government projects, would become subject to "Lowest bidder" restraints on quality and security controls.

      If enough people have these things implanted, there would be interest in harvesting their identity data, both for faking identities, and just for tracking and analytics purposes (Say, as you walk in through the door at that department store in the mall, and walk through the RFID anti-theft sensors)

      You are thinking "Personal security token"-- I am thinking "Result of government cockup by people who feel first and think never."

    9. Re:888 bytes is a pretty fair amount. by mysidia · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Let's change that up slightly, to use 3715 bits out of the 7104 available, approximately 50%:

      • E-mail address = 40 bytes
      • Social Security Number binary encoded - 9 digits = 29 bits.
      • Health Insurance Provider Name - 16 alphanumeric characters = 12 bytes
      • Health Plan ID - Encoded 6 bits per symbol 8 symbols = 48 bits.
      • ZIP CODE of City of birth = 15 bits
      • GPS Latitude and Longitude of current primary workplace (two 32-bit floats) = 64 bits
      • Employer company name - 16 alphanumeric characters (encoded 6 bits per character) = 12 bytes
      • Driver's License Number - 10 digits = 32 bits.
      • Driver's license State (number from 00 to 49)= 6 bits
      • Driver's license Expiration date (Number of days Since Jan 1, 1970) = 15 bits
      • Current vehicle license plate 9 alphanumeric characters (encoded 6 bits per character) = 54 bits
      • Current vehicle VIN number 17 alphanumeric characters (encoded 6 bits per character) = 102 bits
      • Job Title - 16 alphanumeric characters = 12 bytes
      • Annual Income in US Dollars - 1 to 14 digits = 47 bits
      • Mother's maiden name (max: 20 characters) = 15 bytes
      • Date of birth = 15 bits
      • Telephone number with area code - 10 digits = 34 bits
      • Full name - Encoded using 6 bits per character, Uppercase alphabetic characters, digits, spaces, field separator, and NULs only 50 characters = 37 bytes
      • ZIP CODE of Previous residence = 15 bits
      • Date moved into current residence = 15 bits
      • ZIP CODE of Current residence = 15 bits
      • GPS Latitude and Longitude of current residence (two 32-bit floats) = 64 bits
      • Street name and house number of current resident Address (6 bits per character ) = max 20 bytes
      • Apartment number or suite number = max 20 bytes
      • Bank1 - Account number = 29 bits
      • Bank1 - Routing number 12 digits = 37 bits
      • Bank2 - Account number = 29 bits
      • Bank2 - Routing number 12 digits = 37 bits
      • Credit card 1 - primary account number - 12 digits = 37 bits
      • Credit card 1 - CVV number - 3 digits = 10 bits
      • Credit card 1 - Track 1 data 79 alphanumeric characters = 60 bytes
      • Credit card 1 - Track 2 data 40 digits = 17 bytes
      • Credit card 2 - primary account number - 12 digits = 37 bits
      • Credit card 2 - CVV number - 3 digits = 10 bits
      • Credit card 2 - Track 1 data 79 alphanumeric characters = 60 bytes
      • Credit card 2 - Track 2 data 40 digits = 17 bytes
      • Credit card 3 - primary account number - 12 digits = 37 bits
      • Credit card 3 - CVV number - 3 digits = 10 bits
      • Credit card 3 - Track 1 data 79 alphanumeric characters = 60 bytes
      • Credit card 3 - Track 2 data 40 digits = 17 bytes
    10. Re:888 bytes is a pretty fair amount. by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      A SSN is between 1-1,000,000,000. Code the number as an integer, a 26 bit integer. No delimiter needed, and under 4 bytes. There are less than 700 valid area codes, and many fewer than that in use. If one were to "encode" the phone number, one could compress the phone numbers into fewer bits. Efficient packing in fixed length would work for everything but open strings, like addresses, unless you want to code against the USPS database of addresses. I have no idea how many are in that database, but if you had the UID for each of those and numbered those sequentially from 0, you'd probably have the smallest form a complete and valid address, for any address, can fit.

      But that'd take some work. Violating his privacy doesn't need nearly that much work.

    11. Re:888 bytes is a pretty fair amount. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      SSN as a character string!? Easily fits in 32bit integer. 4 bytes with 3 bits to spare if unsigned.

    12. Re:888 bytes is a pretty fair amount. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't even need 9 bytes for a SSN. 4 bytes can hold SSN and still allow it to be very readable by standard data types. You can break it down into bits to save room too.

    13. Re:888 bytes is a pretty fair amount. by rvw · · Score: 1

      Regardless of your US centric view, it is interesting to see what is possible. It reminds me of the days of the ZX80 and the 1KB program challenges.

    14. Re:888 bytes is a pretty fair amount. by gbjbaanb · · Score: 1

      really? My name is Jonathan Smith... go ahead punk, find me.

      You need a bit more information that that, usually a partial address to narrow things down, but other item such as phone number will readily identify you (but if you have the phone number, you're pretty much uniquely identified already, who needs name)

    15. Re:888 bytes is a pretty fair amount. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's still 222 bytes too many, amirite?

    16. Re:888 bytes is a pretty fair amount. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And all that really needs to be stored needs to be is a unique value with some error correction and randomization built in.
      All the other information can be kept in the cloud and accessed.

    17. Re:888 bytes is a pretty fair amount. by wierd_w · · Score: 1

      Randomization requires active processing, which requires more persistent power supply.

      NFC devices (like this one) take a coupled energy flow from the active nearby antenna, and use that to send their own return signal.

      Because of this, they cant really do strong crypto functions with randomization, and are kinda limited to just "Burp back what's in my memory".

    18. Re:888 bytes is a pretty fair amount. by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      888 bytes can hold a LOT of very dangerous information.

      Not only that, but people are misled by comments such as this by OP:

      and the chip is readable up to 10 centimeters, though it is possible to boost that distance

      Nonsense. The chip is readable at any arbitrary distance, dependent primarily on your ability to build a big enough antenna.

      Security researcher Christopher whats-his-name showed, even before NFC was very common in phones, that $200 of equipment, concealed on your person, can read sesitive NFC data from chips in phones from several feet away... including intercepting financial transactions.

    19. Re:888 bytes is a pretty fair amount. by mysidia · · Score: 1

      P.S. Alternatively, the information can be uploaded in encrypted format + Base64 to places such as Pastebin, or Freenet, or other massively distributed publication platform.

      The card can then contain just a few 40-character URLs followed by 512-bits worth of cryptocurrency wallet addresses.

      Then a couple of 256-bit decryption keys for the coded messages and the rest of the card can be used for a list of randomly generated initialization vectors that will be used for further encrypted messages.

      So the website can contain an arbitrarily large amount of information which can then be decrypted using the data on the card.

      Also, additional information can be added later by creating a spend transaction to one of the cryptocurrency addresses listed on the card, and publishing the information in the public blockchain, but on the public blockchain the text can be encrypted with the key and one of the initialization vectors on the card can be used. More random initialization vectors and additional addresses and crypto keys required to be provided inside each Nth encrypted message uploaded to the blockchain.

  3. Microwave by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    He should stick his arm in a microwave oven for 10 seconds on full power and let us know whether it still works...

    1. Re: Microwave by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The arm or the chip? I'd go for the formet, the latter will probably still work.

  4. And limited utilities to take advantage by s.petry · · Score: 1

    I agree fully that 888 bytes is enough to cause someone damage via identity theft. The problem with this phase of trying to "test" the security of these devices is that there is very little to interface with, which is going to create a false sense of security (I'll argue this is part of the reason for the early advertising and testing)

    888 bytes is enough to hold your gender, religion, ethnic background, political affiliation, and at least your last few coordinates. Lots of stuff to discriminate, or tamper with to make it appear that you were in places not visited. Not a huge concern in the US currently (at least with most of that kind of data), but how about the Middle East, or China, or pick a country in Africa. The landscape can change very drastically depending on where you are, let alone who gets into power.

    Did Facebook and Google teach the masses nothing in terms of "bad things that can happen with technology?" Probably not, because you know.. even if you could read/write fast enough to heat this gadget up and burn the carrier's arm you probably won't hear about it on the "News".

    --

    -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    1. Re:And limited utilities to take advantage by wierd_w · · Score: 1

      The "limited utilities" statement relies on "obscurity". It does not make the data any less secure. This device transmits clear text data, and attacks against NFC devices are well known to exist in the wild.

      This device is a type II NFC device, which is fully readable by smartphones, and other NFC readers. There is already profusion and interest in this technology by credit card companies, and credit card thieves, as the same NFC technology is used in NFC enabled credit cards.

      This device is fully readable by smartphones, and the manufacturer for the device even has an app for it.

      https://dangerousthings.com/sh...

      If the use of these things became pervasive, then this device would no longer be obscure, and the "limited utilities" argument evaporates.

      This device is clearly NOT intended to be a security device of any sort, and is intended as a novelty for tech enthusiasts.

      However, the transmit speed would put limits on the realistic capabilities of a device using this technology that actually *IS* designed for secure cryptographic function. A key of sufficient length, with a proper response and challenge arbitration cycle would take several seconds.

  5. What his wife thinks by macraig · · Score: 1

    Why does it matter what his wife thinks? And if she truly did suspect he is crazy, wouldn't he divorced right about now and caring a lot less about the chip in his arm?

    1. Re:What his wife thinks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Crazy is pretty low on the "reasons to divorce your spouse"big totem pole after a while. We're all a little crazy by spousal standards, and I've not had papers served to me for thirty years and countin!

    2. Re:What his wife thinks by bobstreo · · Score: 2

      Why does it matter what his wife thinks? And if she truly did suspect he is crazy, wouldn't he divorced right about now and caring a lot less about the chip in his arm?

      You didn't read the part where he put an NFC controlled chastity belt on her.

    3. Re:What his wife thinks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why does it ever matter what a wife thinks?

    4. Re:What his wife thinks by Rashdot · · Score: 2

      Maybe his wife has a chip on her shoulder.

      --
      This is not the sig you're looking for.
  6. 10cm range? Using what reader? by ElectraFlarefire · · Score: 0

    How on earth is he getting that kind of range! The 'usable range' on these chips is a few mm.. I know, I have one and use it every day!

    1. Re:10cm range? Using what reader? by wierd_w · · Score: 2

      Maybe he has a very large active antenna?

      Even then though, it wouldn't be true NFC-- because the near field is the first 1/4 wavelength of the broadcast frequency.

      Which in this case, is 13.5 mhz-- that gives a total wavelength of about 22meters for the full wave, and 5.5 meters for the 1/4-wave Near Field.

      A large actively coupling antenna could conceivably communicate over that distance by measuring signal drop in the active antenna due to the active coupling with the near field.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R...

      you might not be able to tell what the NFC chip "sent", but you could definitely tell that one was nearby.

  7. see if he can feel it warm up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    use a microcontroller, a couple of fast power mosfets, and a big capacitor to crank a few watts into his grain of rice...

  8. Wrong Hand by BlackHawk-666 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Dude's doing it all wrong, it's meant to go in your right hand or your forehead! ^-^

    --
    All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.
    1. Re:Wrong Hand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or better yet, something else that doesn't tend to leave one's body. If you wear eyeglasses that is.

  9. can chip implants cause cancer? by the_Bionic_lemming · · Score: 1

    There's a couple schools of thought about chipping pets - one is the cancer risk is minimal, the other is that it isn't minimal.

    So I'll say that a good use of his chip will be to see if he gets cancer.

    --
    _ _ _ Go for the eyes Boo! GO FOR THE EYES!
    1. Re:can chip implants cause cancer? by profplump · · Score: 1

      Do these schools of thought know that the chip is inside a piece of glass? Are they suggesting that glass causes cancer? They can't possibly be thinking of effects related to the radio emissions, as the chip has no local power source -- it is only active when powered by a fairly strong emitter and most pets spend well less than 0.0001% of their time in such a situation even if their chip is read many times each year.

    2. Re:can chip implants cause cancer? by the_Bionic_lemming · · Score: 0

      What does a RFID chip do, and why would you be stupid enough to mention glass?

      Does Glass stop the rf in rfid? If it did - then why would there be an implant in the first place?

      Seriously? Can't people even think before they knee-jerk on reading wiki?

      --
      _ _ _ Go for the eyes Boo! GO FOR THE EYES!
    3. Re:can chip implants cause cancer? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      RF is non-ionising and is incapable of interfering with your biology in any way that causes cancer.

    4. Re:can chip implants cause cancer? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The radiation to activate the chip comes from outside. If you get polled 100 times per day by different RFIDs (intended for your phone) it matters very little if the chip inside of you responds 2 of those times. The big source of radiation (which isn't dangerous to begin with) will hit you ragardless if you have a chip implanted or not.

    5. Re:can chip implants cause cancer? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's a couple schools of thought about chipping pets - one is the cancer risk is minimal, the other is batshit crazy.

      FTFY

    6. Re:can chip implants cause cancer? by geekmux · · Score: 1

      There's a couple schools of thought about chipping pets - one is the cancer risk is minimal, the other is that it isn't minimal.

      So I'll say that a good use of his chip will be to see if he gets cancer.

      The RFID chip just pulled a number.

      It's 37.

      His body is still serving cancer to #4 on the list (diet sodas). Get in line.

      And good luck proving who or what killed him in the end.

    7. Re:can chip implants cause cancer? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But the ``radiation'' (an EM field) is always there, no matter whether you have the chip inside of you or not.

      Heck, your (and everyone else's!) cellphone sends signals right through YOUR brain... (yes, if you placed an antenna into your brain, you'll be able to detect everyone's cellphone signal from quite far away). ... So if that doesn't kill ya, what makes you think this implant will?

    8. Re:can chip implants cause cancer? by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      But it can cook you. But then water can drown you as well.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
  10. journalist in need of by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    You mean help this journalist come up with some stories to write about

  11. easy by roman_mir · · Score: 2

    Just install a reader for this chip in the wife and you'll get all of your privacy and security and many other things violated...

  12. Whatever you do... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Dont upload your nudes to it!

  13. You keep complaining about privacy violation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think you have a chip in your shoulder.

  14. Huh by Hognoxious · · Score: 2

    Didn't some guy (a university professor) in the UK do this about ten years ago? He was a bit of a publicity seeking knob too, IIRC.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  15. Wrong Hand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I know, I keep getting e-mails from ppl citing the Bible.

    Rene Schoemaker.

  16. Dem speaker of the house, 3rd in line for potus by raymorris · · Score: 2

    Nancy Pelosi was Speaker of the House, and generally considered the second most powerful democrat behind Obama. You can't figure out why conservatives might have a problem with top democrats? You may have noticed Obama wasn't very involved with the drafting of the ACA, that was spearheaded by Pelosi. It would be more accurate to call it Pelosicare rather than Obamacare. The first draft, the last time the Democrats controlled the White House, was called Hillarycare.

    For those conservatives of a more libertarian bent, they may be unimpressed with Bush and Cheney and may see some good in some democrats. Pelosi, however, supported the Patriot Act, currently supports the NSA dragnet, No Child Left Behind - she's the figurehead for the Democrats, except when the republicans have an even worse idea, in which case she gets on board with them.

  17. Just wait by mwvdlee · · Score: 2

    Just wait 364 days, until he's locked all his authentication to the NFC, then some chloroform and a scalpel will give him all the privacy and security violation he's asking for.

    --
    Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
  18. It just makes totalitarianism easier by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Its not that NFC/RFID chip has potential uses, its that it is uniquely identifiable. This just means that you can be tracked everywhere and with the right equipment that can even be done by satellite using power beaming tech. That said, your entire body is a walking equivalent of an RFID tag anyway and can be interrogated by radar providing a unique signature. The RFID tag just means that at least some steps can be skipped, reducing backend processing time. It can also be used in conjunction with the more complex method of analysing the return signal from the body to confirm if the chip has been replaced.

    Whilst this may seem little to worry about now, all societies eventually decay to a totalitarian model. In the past, fake papers could get you and your family out of the country, or you could sneak across a border. With these automated tools, especially radar systems that can penetrate RF shielding and target the human body, you would not be able to get away. You can be killed from orbit without anyone ever knowing.

    Now think of Western security services who have spent the last 40 years building radar signatures of everybody and associating personal details with those signatures. Also, imaging a global network of satellites tasked with keeping that tracking information up-to-date 24/7.

    That's current tech.

    Think of the holocaust and how accurate records made extermination easy.

    Its not RFID/NFC that is the problem, or even radar, the problem is much more human and it is in our nature.

  19. red herring hoornalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The most insidious violations happen while you're not there and moreover, without you having choice left because everyone is doing it and/or getting the same treatment. It's not so much about your data ending up in the open, though that can be pretty bad already. It's about everyone's data getting abused en masse, without recourse or redress. By publishing himself like this, he retains something of those, where an anonymous faceless in the crowd wouldn't.

  20. Please take a MRI scan. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I want to visually see that chip, together with the other one implanted at birth.

    --ac

    1. Re:Please take a MRI scan. by wierd_w · · Score: 1

      an MRI scan is .... ill advised.

      MRI == Magnetic Resonance Imaging. anything metallic will develop EM eddy currents in them, will heat up, and or-- be yanked forcibly out of the patient by the very strong oscillating magnetic fields being employed to produce the image. Yes-- the NFC chip contains metallic components in the wound wire antenna that is all spooled up inside that glass bead.

      You want a PET scan instead.
      PET == Positron Emission Tomography
      It uses injected radioactive glucose (uses carbon 11 atoms in the glucose structure, which is a positron emitter) and a scintillation particle detector/ Xray film (captures the resulting 2 high energy gamma rays that are produced when the emitted positron collides with electrons in the patient's body) to create a mapping of the patient's soft tissues.

      Or, just a simple X-Ray.

      an MRI would rip the implant out of his arm at worst, and cause severe burns at the implant site at best.

  21. Why doesn't he use a Cattle Ear Tag? by world_citizen · · Score: 1

    Why doesn't he use a Cattle Ear Tag then everyone can read it even when they doesn't have a nfc capable device. Seriously, I think it's not smart to give up you privacy like this, via an NFC tag.

  22. Re:Dem speaker of the house, 3rd in line for potus by azereal · · Score: 3, Informative

    Technically Obamacare IS Rommneycare, a Republican alternative to a single payer system (single payer is a much better system BTW). When the Democrats proposed it the Republicans simply lurched further to the right and declared it terrible.

  23. No fly list by DocSavage64109 · · Score: 3, Funny

    If we can get the reporter's uid on the no-fly-list it should be pretty entertaining to listen to his rants.

  24. I think the journalist missed the point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Volunteering for the chip is an exercise of freedom. Great.

    But being obligated to take one that is linked to a system of governance or control is where violations can starts, violations of privacy or freedom depend on social meaning given to the chip.

    An equivalent example of the journalists logical flaw: When the internet was born and everybody was dependent on other forms of information and computers where only used by the average person to type up papers and could only connect to the internet by a dial-in connection, an equivalent challenge would have been to share my IP address and ask if someone could use it to violate: constitutional freedoms, bank account, relationships with family and friends, or commercial relationships?

    You see, the chip is the latest vehicle for the promise of convenience and/or modernization, just like the internet was. With that convenience we will need to build systems of control to fulfill fairness requirements we feel are obviously needed and required by such a promise. Flaws in such a system of control, or just outright exploitation of trust extended to such a system lead to the type of violations we actually need to worry about. The issue then is how much can we trust government that incites fear, that keep secrets, that uses secret courts, that ignores its own regulations and laws, that would "update the dictionary" so that torture is something else, that would bail a banker out, what would enable and/or endorse confiscation of private property by law enforcement and/or government (see the civil forfeiture), that can't deny the existence of a scenario where a drone strike on it's own citizen on it's own land, that basically has no interest in the well-being of its citizenry. So why should we trust such a government at all?

    That is why the journalist has missed the point. The very chip carries with it the possibility of more violations we rightfully should fear. It carries with it the next version of the wooden yolk. (why is a new yolk better than the old one?) How is taking a chip to try and show that it doesn't bite different from trying to justifying murder by saying, "Everyone eventually dies anyway"

    However, in reply to the challenge the journalist is making, I offer an equivalent challenge for the sake of ponderance here on /.

    Would you still take the chip, knowing it is the equivalent of your SS number, your drivers license and your badge number, journalistic credentials and bank account access IF complete access to the system (no restrictions at all) is also given to everyone who also agreed to being chipped? No restrictions means that everyone is an admin, everyone is a shopper and everyone can know and do everything.

    If you can say yes to that do an experiment where you leave your home unlocked, your car unlocked and the keys in the ignition. Regarless, this is where think we all need to go, eventually, in some form.

    If you say no, then I ask why you should give the chance for such complete access or control to anyone? Convenience? Ha!

  25. Welcome to 10 years ago by Enry · · Score: 4, Informative
    1. Re:Welcome to 10 years ago by Chelloveck · · Score: 1

      That's completely different. That was an RFID chip. This is an NFC chip. Totally different!

      --
      Chelloveck
      I give up on debugging. From now on, SIGSEGV is a feature.
  26. Its hard makong money these days. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As a journalist you must come up with creative ideas to get any kind of attention.

  27. Re:Dem speaker of the house, 3rd in line for potus by ganjadude · · Score: 1

    no, its not. stop being disengenious. Romney care was a single state issue, which makes it constitutional according to the 10th. This is not the same thing at all.

    now, if another state implemented it (not the fed) you could still call it romney care

    --
    have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
  28. Getting back to the original question by LeadSongDog · · Score: 1

    So just what uses can we contrive? I kind of favour using it as a proximity sensor in or near steering wheels that disables his mobile phone if the car is running, while leaving the passenger's phone functional. Of course Big Wireless may not like the hit on their bottom line.
    The storage issue is a red herring. It just needs enough to store a short URI where everything else can be found. Probably want a private key too, to be used only for generating signatures within the chip.

    --
    Oh, I'm sorry sir, I thought you were referring to me, Mr. Wensleydale.
    1. Re:Getting back to the original question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not a privacy invading use, but still useful: he can use the chip to unlock his NFC enabled smartphone. Swiping it over a part of his body is quick and convenient. In theft / loss scenarios it provides equal or better security than unlock codes / patterns. Only in police / border control situations it folds to mere obscurity. The officer can swipe a seized phone all around the suspects body, if only he expects that to work for unlocking.

  29. Gender Neutral Language 101 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Unless we're talking about sex (and even then sometimes) the words "man" and "woman" are usually interchangeable and the generic "man"

    I'm not sure that man and woman were ever interchangeable, but it is true that man had a generic sense in C19th and early C20th English. That is a retrograde usage in the C21st.

    Putting aside the obvious sexism, how practically, do we deal with the ambiguity this obsolescent usage introduces? For instance, when Rousseau is translated as: "Man is born free, but lives everywhere in chains," does man there include women? You wouldn't know, would you?

    Don't worry, they'll go over this again in English class when you get to middle school.

    Well here at university, were you to make this error in an essay, I would be required to deduct marks for your breach of gender-neutral language requirements.

    Personally I find the "he/she" (which is considered acceptable ... you won't lose marks) construction abhorrent. So I follow a simple rule, when I have in mind a man, I use man and he, when I have in mind a woman I use woman and she and when I have in mind an unspecified member of a defined class I eschew the singular and speak of the class. i.e. in stead of "a user ... he/she" I prefer "users ... they." Either construction is acceptable however, "a user ... he," is not. A difficulty arises where, like here, one deals with a particular anonymous individual, where I reluctantly submit to the requirements of my profession and use they in the singular (which I find only marginally less ugly than he/she or (s)he).

    So I guess you (or OP if that is not you) meant something along the lines of "It is obvious, in such cases, that people receive their own money which was taken from them by force, directly and specifically, without their consent, against their own choice." Unless, of course, OP meant what they wrote to be taken literally and thereby, like Rousseau in the quote above, to exclude women. After all, in discussing a particular woman, to speak of what pertains to "a man" might seem to be going out of the way to exclude her (at least it seems that way to a user of C21st English, YMMV). Which again raises the question: "Ayn Rand was not a man. So how do the considerations differ for women?"

    1. Re:Gender Neutral Language 101 by The+Ickle+Jones · · Score: 1

      Putting aside the obvious sexism

      The nonexistent sexism, you mean. Using "man" to mean "people" is not sexism, and words often have multiple meanings depending on the context. There is no problem if you just use your brain.

      "Man is born free, but lives everywhere in chains," does man there include women? You wouldn't know, would you?

      You could read more about that person to hopefully find out. But in the end, it doesn't matter, because you're missing the greater point anyway.

    2. Re:Gender Neutral Language 101 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you're missing the greater point anyway

      No, you are.

      The nonexistent sexism, you mean. Using "man" to mean "people" is not sexism

      It is deeply sexist. You just haven't used your brain enough to comprehend why.

      words often have multiple meanings depending on the context

      You don't say.

      You see I can "argue" just like you too, relying on barefaced statements unsupported by thought, insight or argument.

    3. Re:Gender Neutral Language 101 by The+Ickle+Jones · · Score: 1

      It is deeply sexist. You just haven't used your brain enough to comprehend why.

      Making useless statements isn't going to help you.

      You see I can "argue" just like you too, relying on barefaced statements unsupported by thought, insight or argument.

      You've been doing that all along. You have never once gave a rational explanation for why using a certain word that means a certain thing in the context it's used in is sexist merely because it can be used to refer exclusively to a certain gender. Again, words can have multiple meanings. Quit being a mental midget.

    4. Re:Gender Neutral Language 101 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Using "man" to mean "people" is not sexism

      Now seriously though. The very existence of these multiple meaning is what is so deeply sexist in fact it is so deeply embedded that many, yourself included, are unable even to perceive the problem.

      It is not ideologically innocent to posit one gender as (default) human and the other as other. Perhaps you are unwilling to grasp this in the abstract (I trust you have the capability if you so chose), but consider the following sentence you might find the under-educated ;j employing:

      A lawyer must ensure the he maintains the highest levels of ethical probity.

      Most people, --and I dare say, had it not appeared in the context of this conversation, you as well (and me too) --will visualise a man in a suit with pants, whereas most lawyers these days would probably be wearing a suit with a skirt (or are we not yet so far ...it seems like that at Law School anyway). This may seem a trivial example, but it ought illustrate how language can function unconsciously to perpetuate gendered stereotypes. The very invisibility --that you could see no problem --is what makes it particularly pernicious.

      You could read more about that person to hopefully find out.

      Precisely! You would need to read more about that person simply to understand a simple English sentence. Auf Deutsch würde man ab sofort wissen dass er dabei nur über Männer und nicht Menschen schriebte. In sexist English the ambiguity of gender impairs communication. I'm just as entitled to read the original sentence as applying to men in exclusion to women as I am it applying to people in general. In fact upon my expectation is that people with 3 digit IQs would have the capacity to employ gender-neutral expression, it's a very real possibility. In reality, of course, I interpreted as evidencing a deep unwitting sexism in the author. However, a reader is entitled to either reading, by virtue of the fact that words can have more than one meaning.

      Now imagine yourself a woman swimming in this sea of linguistic ambiguity, never knowing precisely (without further inquiry) whether you personally are included or excluded in a statement. Are you able to grasp the problem?

      English is moving on. What might be taught at "middle school" is no longer acceptable at (least at many) higher institutions, certainly not in my faculty. If you can use your brain, I'm sure you'll be able to construct sentences that are both (old-school normative) grammatical and gender-neutral. It's not that difficult really (apart from the "they" situation ... yuck).

    5. Re:Gender Neutral Language 101 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Making useless statements isn't going to help you.

      I agree. That was the point. It didn't help you much either.

      You have never once gave a rational explanation for why using a certain word that means a certain thing in the context it's used in is sexist

      I presume you wrote that before reading my next, yes? In any case I thought it would have been clear from the pharse "putting aside the obvious sexism" that I was not arguing in reliance upon or even addressing the inherent sexism of the language. I was addressing the obvious ambiguity and I did so by giving an example, which, by your own admission you were unable to understand without "read[ing] more about that person." That's a fairly successful demonstration, I should have thought.

      Again, words can have multiple meanings.

      Again, you point this out as though it is in the least surprising or may not have occurred to me, when in fact the multiple meaning is the very subject matter under discussion. Strange.

      Quit being a mental midget.

      Do you regard that as a particularly useful statement?

    6. Re:Gender Neutral Language 101 by The+Ickle+Jones · · Score: 1

      Now seriously though. The very existence of these multiple meaning is what is so deeply sexist in fact it is so deeply embedded that many, yourself included, are unable even to perceive the problem.

      Now seriously though. The very existence of the word "multiple" is deeply racist, and it's so deeply embedded that many, yourself included, are unable even to perceive the problem.

      Has it ever occurred to you that people can have different opinions than your own without being unconsciously brainwashed? Here's a shocker: I actually believe that this is not a problem in the least, even when I imagine as you want me to. Stop trying to suggest that I've been indoctrinated somehow.

      It is not ideologically innocent to posit one gender as (default) human and the other as other.

      That's not what is happening. People are just using a word that has multiple meanings. There's no problem here.

      Precisely! You would need to read more about that person simply to understand a simple English sentence.

      Taking things out of context often makes it difficult to understand. This can happen with any word that has multiple meanings. Too bad.

      Now imagine yourself a woman swimming in this sea of linguistic ambiguity, never knowing precisely (without further inquiry) whether you personally are included or excluded in a statement. Are you able to grasp the problem?

      You can also ask. Many women I've talked with about this sort of thing have said they don't care. Of course, yes, some do care, and they make mostly the same arguments you do. It's not a settled matter among women.

      I hope you're not going to suggest that they're just indoctrinated or something, because then there's no point in asking me to imagine anything, as you just want me to agree with you and anything short of that is 'incorrect.'

      English is moving on.

      Language evolves, but the old meanings stay and can still be used. Furthermore, common usage won't always go away so easily, even if universities resist hard.

      But hey, maybe people will stop doing this. And... I don't really care one way or the other. I care more about the person's intent and whether their message can be understood. Which, despite what you've said, I have no problem understanding the point others are making even when they use words like "men" to refer to "people." To me, language is about communicating ideas, and that's what I care about.

      (apart from the "they" situation ... yuck).

      What?

    7. Re:Gender Neutral Language 101 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The very existence of the word "multiple" is deeply racist, and it's so deeply embedded that many, yourself included, are unable even to perceive the problem.

      OK, explain how. I understand what think you're doing, but look, you do you argument no service with a preposterous move like that.

      Has it ever occurred to you that people can have different opinions than your own without being unconsciously brainwashed?

      "Brainwashed" is little histrionic, don't you think? People can have different opinions and people can be mistaken, that is not really relevant. I never claimed you were "unconsciously brainwashed," I merely pointed out that most people will upon hearing the male pronoun tend to visualise a male even where that is a mistake (ie where it pertains to a female). Or do you disagree? And that pretty clearly affects the how we perceive the gendered nature of the situation.

      I actually believe that this is not a problem in the least

      Again, it's possible to believe something and still be wrong. I know this from first-hand experience.

      Stop trying to suggest that I've been indoctrinated somehow.

      Of course you've been indoctrinated (in the wide sense of that word). We all have. You speak English, don't you? You don't believe, do you, had you been born to other parents in a different century in a vastly different culture, you would have the same set of knowledge and beliefs? Not least in that indoctrination is the language we are raised speaking and the implicit assumptions it carries. This is not to say we cannot transcend our indoctrination.

      ... you just want me to agree with you and anything short of that is 'incorrect.'

      Couldn't you be accused of that? You're making definitive bold statements such as "Using "man" to mean "people" is not sexism" and then calling me a "mental midget" and telling me I have "to use [my] brain," because I don't agree with you.

      In any case I made it clear, did I not, that I understand you are motivated not to agree with me. :)

      Language evolves, but the old meanings stay and can still be used.

      Well the old sticks-in-the-mud like myself make our best attempt but ... Try using gay in its old meaning in modern conversation. Or bland or even cute (outside idioms such as "a cute trick.") Heavens I get into trouble when I call people docile, when all I mean to say is that they learn quickly (actually I don't even try that), or even impertinent to mean not pertinent (that, OTOH I use all the time) ... Or for that matter try using man to mean human in written work in a modern University and see where it gets you. ;)

      I have no problem understanding the point others are making even when they use words like "men" to refer to "people." To me, language is about communicating ideas, and that's what I care about.

      As demonstrated, you have a problem absent sufficient context, a problem you would not have in German (in that instance). I agree that language should be about communicating ideas, which is incidentally I chose to dwell on ambiguity rather than sexism is the first place. Why would one not prefer a more communicatively efficient language to one beset with ambiguity?

      I leave you (as I now must) with a little story (a true one somewhat embroidered) from when I was at Law School. ...

      Firstly some context ... I'm a man, and I was mature already when at Law School (with two previous degrees and work experience under my belt). So there I was having to work on an assignment with an earnest young feminist, (who may have been freaked out working with a man in his 30s, I dunno), and the question of wording came up. She thought we should write "he/she" --and accuse me of feminist baiting if you must, but her earnestness was a touch overbearin

    8. Re:Gender Neutral Language 101 by The+Ickle+Jones · · Score: 1

      OK, explain how. I understand what think you're doing, but look, you do you argument no service with a preposterous move like that.

      Why not? I can arbitrarily decide that any word is racist, sexist, etc. based on subjective perceptions. It's quite easy, and I could even create all sorts of stories about how and why those words make me feel bad as a member of race X, since anything can be offensive to anyone.

      Or do you disagree?

      I don't think it even matters, since people can consciously figure out the difference even if I assume that is the case.

      Again, it's possible to believe something and still be wrong.

      Yes, but this is a completely subjective matter. Whether or not it is a problem is 100% subjective, so I cannot be objectively wrong for believing it's not.

      Of course you've been indoctrinated (in the wide sense of that word).

      So wide it's almost meaningless, since I don't think mindlessly believing things you've heard is quite the same as the usual type of indoctrination. Given enough time and education, you will start to question your culture and your beliefs. As a child, maybe "indoctrinated" would fit, but for free thinkers, it's much less of a problem. I know you later said that you didn't mean we can't transcend the "indoctrination."

      As demonstrated, you have a problem absent sufficient context

      Of course. I can completely confuse people by taking just about anything out of context; context matters. This has little to do with the language under discussion. But when I read that guy's comment, I fully understood what he meant. I don't think it's all that ambiguous, or at least not anymore so than normal language.

      Why would one not prefer a more communicatively efficient language to one beset with ambiguity?

      I wish we could, but even formal university speak is littered with ambiguity and nonsense. I doubt human language will ever be efficient or logical.

      She thought we should write "he/she"

      What if someone doesn't identify as either a he or a she? You need to ask about their preferred gender pronoun first. Some feminist...

    9. Re:Gender Neutral Language 101 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why not?

      Because it's impertinent. It would be a arbitrary decision based on subjective perceptions. But the subject under discussion is how, or whether, gender-excluding language systemically affects a culture. This is not about language like slut, bitch, etc. which necessarily causes subjective offence (although someone might take offence at your perpetuating a systemic linguistic bias against women) because it is sexist. Different discussion.

      I don't think it even matters ...

      Now your lifting your game, that was answered like a professional politician. ;) I'll play the part of the stubborn interviewer ...

      I did not ask you whether you thought it mattered, I asked you if you disagreed that most people in hearing the sentence "a lawyer must ensure the he maintains the highest levels of ethical probity" would visualise the lawyer, --who is in fact not a lawyer at all but any member of the set of lawyers described in imprecise language --as a man. And if they do, as I think we must admit, doesn't this idiom foster sexual (feminists would probably have me write gender) stereotypes?

      [the wide meaning of indoctrinate] [s]o wide it's almost meaningless

      "Almost," but not so meaningless that you were unable to write one of your best paragraph in this entire discussion based upon that meaning, huh?

      Two things, first it was you, not I who introduced the somewhat hyperbolic "brainwashed" and "indoctrinated" into the conversation. If I give cut you slack by attempting to fill your terms with relevance, it hardly falls to you to complain.

      Secondly, I now recant, it's not the wide meaning at all, but the old meaning. Taking the earliest example (1635) we find the word originally means "to imbue with learning" or (1656) "to instruct in a subject, principle, etc." Thus T Fuller (Worthies (1662) Mddx. 177) wrote "The Lord Treasurer Burleigh..was indoctrinated by a Cobler in the true Tanning of Leather." (OED)

      I'd rather thought the word origainally pertained to religious instruction, and while many of the early example do deal with that, it was not exclusively so employed. Yet another belief proven to be wrong. But I digress ... to that paragraph ...

      Given enough time and education, you will start to question your culture and your beliefs. As a child, maybe "indoctrinated" would fit, but for free thinkers, it's much less of a problem. I know you later said that you didn't mean we can't transcend the "indoctrination."

      Yes exactly, as children we need to be indoctrinated, we call this civilisation. And yes we can transcend this indoctrination, which might in turn elevate the indoctrination of succeeding generations, precisely by education and thought (time alone I'm not sure would suffice, for many people apparently have a natural disinclination to think). Just as we need mathematics to dispell the natural proclivity of our minds to arrive at false conclusions (for which see for istance the work of Kahnemann and Tversky), precision of language is a requirement for clear thought. Moreoever such transcendence as results from thought and learning allows us both collectively and individually (never underestimate the power of you alone leading by example) consciously to alter the trajectory of our language. Indeed spin doctors are doing precisely this, but not always in our bests interests. (e.g. increased communicative efficiency)

      Yes, but this is a completely subjective matter.

      What any individual might find offensive from time to time may be very subjective. I'm not really that bothered about offending sensitive people. In any case, this matter is not at all subjective, it's about the inbuilt presumptions of a language that existed even prior to any individual subject acquiring that language.

      I can completely con

    10. Re:Gender Neutral Language 101 by The+Ickle+Jones · · Score: 1

      Because it's impertinent. It would be a arbitrary decision based on subjective perceptions.

      Much like the ambiguity you speak of. Even though you are talking about ambiguity, you also mentioned sexism.

      I did not ask you whether you thought it mattered, I asked you if you disagreed that most people in hearing the sentence "a lawyer must ensure the he maintains the highest levels of ethical probity" would visualise the lawyer, --who is in fact not a lawyer at all but any member of the set of lawyers described in imprecise language --as a man. And if they do, as I think we must admit, doesn't this idiom foster sexual (feminists would probably have me write gender) stereotypes?

      I don't think envisioning a certain gender for a certain profession is sexism. Again, I don't think it's a problem at all. I'm sure lots of people do that (including with nurses), but I see no reason why that would be sexism.

      Two things, first it was you, not I who introduced the somewhat hyperbolic "brainwashed" and "indoctrinated" into the conversation.

      Maybe, but your implication was there. When you claim that something is so deeply embedded in a culture that the people in it can't even recognize the problem, I'm going to exaggerate and use "indoctrination" as a form of mockery.

      Secondly, I now recant, it's not the wide meaning at all, but the old meaning. Taking the earliest example (1635) we find the word originally means "to imbue with learning" or (1656) "to instruct in a subject, principle, etc." Thus T Fuller (Worthies (1662) Mddx. 177) wrote "The Lord Treasurer Burleigh..was indoctrinated by a Cobler in the true Tanning of Leather." (OED)

      Great.

      precision of language is a requirement for clear thought.

      If that is so, then I'm not sure anyone has clear thoughts, given how much of an abomination the English language is. Fortunately, humans have brains and can generally figure out what is being said, even if someone isn't trying to be precise in their use of language.

      In any case, this matter is not at all subjective, it's about the inbuilt presumptions of a language that existed even prior to any individual subject acquiring that language.

      Yes, it is. Here's how it all went down:

      "I actually believe that this is not a problem in the least"
      "Again, it's possible to believe something and still be wrong."
      "Yes, but this is a completely subjective matter. Whether or not it is a problem is 100% subjective, so I cannot be objectively wrong for believing it's not."

      Regarding whether or not something is a problem, which is what you quoted and responded to, that is 100% subjective.

      Of course context matters. Absolutely! However that particular example has everything to do with the language under discussion.

      So declaring victory because it's slightly more difficult to figure out what someone was saying without context seems silly. And again, this doesn't just apply to the language under discussion, but a large amount of words with multiple definitions.

      After all, neither in the German, (nor indeed in a gender-neutral English) was there any ambiguity requiring more context to resolve.

      Nonsense. They might be using completely different definitions of words (perhaps ones that they made up). Without context, you wouldn't see that.

      So I'd ask again "Why would one not prefer a more communicatively efficient language to one beset with ambiguity?"

      Generally I do. But as I said, I don't think doing as you suggest would truly improve the situation all that much. I don't mind a bit of 'inefficiency' every now and then, either.

      Now I wonder if your obviously dearly treasured preference for man over person or perhaps mankind over humankind is perhaps some kind of marker of tribal membership?

      I never said that I dearly treasured it, just that I don't think it's sexist or all that difficult to figure out what someone is saying.

    11. Re:Gender Neutral Language 101 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even though you are talking about ambiguity, you also mentioned sexism.

      Yes, to say there is also the issue of sexism, but I won't address that. Is that really so difficult to understand? I'm only addressing it because

      I don't think envisioning a certain gender for a certain profession is sexism.

      I disagree, but that's perhaps a matter of definition, and as you like to point out, words can entertain a variety of range of meanings. I think the presumption that a nurse must be a female and a doctor a male, for instance, clearly to be peddling sexist stereotypes. Perhaps in the case of nurses it is still possible to justify this on the basis of sheer probability, but with lawyers it would almost be the opposite of the truth. But this is to miss the point anyway, namely ...

      That sentence (about "a lawyer") was not meant to delinate the harm wrought by gender exclusionary language. It was meant for the very limited purpose of illustrating the idea the language we choose can tacitly convey ideas about gender which are perhaps not even meant by the speaker nor reflected upon by the listener. As I wrote:

      This may seem a trivial example, but it ought illustrate how language can function unconsciously to perpetuate gendered stereotypes.

      Maybe, but your implication was there.

      Observing that language may convey unspoken assumptions, or that there exist cultural assumption unrelfective taken for granted, implies brainwashing?! Don't be absurd!

      When you claim that something is so deeply embedded in a culture that the people in it can't even recognize the problem, I'm going to exaggerate and use "indoctrination" as a form of mockery.

      You'd mock the truth? Look this paragraphs of yours: "Has it ever occurred to you that people can have different opinions than your own without being unconsciously brainwashed? Here's a shocker: I actually believe that this is not a problem in the least, even when I imagine as you want me to. Stop trying to suggest that I've been indoctrinated somehow" is so overwrought that it hardly testifies well to your mental state. Perhaps I should have told you "to take your meds" and be done with it. However, convention requires me to read your text so as to in the best possible light. That's what I did. Don't complain.

      Yes, it is. Here's how it all went down: ...

      I'm well aware of how it went down. However since the "problem" is not in the least subjective no amount of repetition will cure your statement of its want of relevance. Moreover, the question is not whether you think there is a problem, the question is whether it reasonably falls within the meaning in which sexism is ordinarily used.

      Regarding whether or not something is a problem, which is what you quoted and responded to, that is 100% subjective.

      And again ... what are your on about?

      If that is so, then I'm not sure anyone has clear thoughts, given how much of an abomination the English language is.

      Again it's not a binary thing. Nor for that matter is transceding your cultural baggage which you should never be 100% able to do, but you can rise above the state of unreflective acceptance. That being said it is interesting that intellectual work can be aided by writing things down clearly. Perhaps this is most obvious with legal problems where I often find that my initial impressions are completely wrong once I come to put pen to paper. However much of an abomination English is, it's still a beautiful tool for thought. Indeed much ofn yours has been done using it, or?

      Nonsense

      Nope, there is no ambuguity in the German (which uses der Mensch for humans, die Frau for women and der Mann for men) that requires that extra context. Sorry that's an atomic fact. Indeed I once saw a feminist academic siccing (ie. [sic

    12. Re:Gender Neutral Language 101 by The+Ickle+Jones · · Score: 1

      I disagree, but that's perhaps a matter of definition, and as you like to point out, words can entertain a variety of range of meanings. I think the presumption that a nurse must be a female and a doctor a male, for instance, clearly to be peddling sexist stereotypes.

      Unless someone is telling men that they can't be nurses or acting against their ability to do so, I don't think there's any sexism. Just having an image of a female nurse pop into your head hurts no one and I do not see how that is sexist.

      Observing that language may convey unspoken assumptions, or that there exist cultural assumption unrelfective taken for granted, implies brainwashing?!

      I don't think it's absurd. Telling me that I don't even realize the existence of a problem that supposedly exists due to some nonsense in my culture makes it sound like I've been brainwashed to me.

      I'm well aware of how it went down. However since the "problem" is not in the least subjective no amount of repetition will cure your statement of its want of relevance.

      But whether something is a problem or not is subjective. You replied to my statement saying that I do not believe there is a problem saying that someone's beliefs can be wrong, making it sound as if you're saying that my belief that this isn't a problem can be wrong. If that was not how you intended to sound, I would've phrased it differently.

      But even the problem itself is clearly subjective, or at least up for interpretation. Whether something is ambiguous or difficult to understand is subjective. Some people will understand it instantly, and others won't, regardless of how many possible interpretations (an interpretation is subjective of course) there are.

      Indeed much ofn yours has been done using it, or?

      Yes, but only because it's necessary. I live in a country where English is the primary language. If I had a choice to change it to something more logical, I would. I don't use it because I think it's beautiful, but because it still technically serves its purpose as a language (which isn't a very high bar anyway).

      Perhaps there is some insight in there somewhere, but unlike OP's original misuse of man, I'm unable to grasp what you're getting at ... who is "they?"

      The person who wrote the text. They might be using familiar words, but might have defined them differently somewhere else, and so you couldn't just quote a random part of the text they wrote and fully understand it.

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