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The Plane Crash That Gave Us GPS

HughPickens.com writes: Sarah Laskow reports at The Atlantic about the aftereffects of the KAL 007 incident, where the Soviet Union shot down a passenger plane on September 1, 1983. All 269 passengers were killed, including a U.S. Congressman en route from New York City to Seoul via Anchorage. At first, the Soviet Union wouldn't even admit its military had shot the plane down, but the Reagan administration immediately started pushing to establish what had happened and stymie the operations of the Soviet Aeroflot airline. It is widely believed that Korean Air Lines Flight 007 was already well off course when the crew routinely radioed that it was over its proper ''way point,'' or checkpoint, at a 90-degree angle to Shemya Island in the West Aleutian chain. Ultimately, the Boeing 747 jumbo jet cut across the lower tip of the Kamchatka Peninsula and the southern tip of Sakhalin Island, where it was shot down by a Soviet fighter.

This resulted in President Reagan making a notable choice. While this choice was reported at the time, it was not the biggest news to come out of this event: Reagan decided to speed up the timeline for civilian use of GPS. The U.S. had already launched almost a dozen satellites into orbit that could help locate its military craft, on land, in the air, or on the sea. But the use of the system was restricted. Now, Reagan said, as soon as the next iteration of the GPS system was working, it would be available for free. It took more than $10 billion and over 10 years for the second version of the U.S.'s GPS system to come fully online. But in 1995, as promised, it was available to private companies for consumer applications. It didn't take long, though, for commercial providers of GPS services to start complaining about the system's "selective availability" which reserved access to the best, most precise signals for the U.S. military. In 2000, not that long before he left office, President Clinton got rid of selective availability and freed the world from ever depending on paper maps or confusing directions from relatives again.

57 of 236 comments (clear)

  1. Thank you, Presidents Reagan and Clinton. by jeffb+(2.718) · · Score: 5, Funny

    I'm sure any Slashdot post invoking both of these political figures will attract only the most calm and well-reasoned discussion.

    1. Re:Thank you, Presidents Reagan and Clinton. by ArcadeMan · · Score: 4, Funny

      These guys are just an actor and a saxophone player, what's there to talk about?

    2. Re:Thank you, Presidents Reagan and Clinton. by cold+fjord · · Score: 4, Interesting
      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    3. Re:Thank you, Presidents Reagan and Clinton. by BringsApples · · Score: 2

      Well Slashdot is a comment-based advertizing website. Arguing keeps us interested in each other, as almost nothing else does these days. Slashdot meshes both of those concepts, and we all gladly comply.

      --
      Politics; n. : A religion whereby man is god.
    4. Re:Thank you, Presidents Reagan and Clinton. by TheCastro1689 · · Score: 3, Informative

      And then crushed other unions

    5. Re:Thank you, Presidents Reagan and Clinton. by SJHillman · · Score: 4, Funny

      I have no doubt that one of them was a great actor, but I'm not so sure about the other one's saxophone skills - did Reagan ever even touch a sax?

    6. Re:Thank you, Presidents Reagan and Clinton. by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 3, Funny

      Well, when Clinton tells me that he did not have sex with Reagan . . . I'll believe him.

      --
      Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
    7. Re:Thank you, Presidents Reagan and Clinton. by gstoddart · · Score: 4, Funny

      No, but Clinton definitely did not have sax with Monica Lewinsky. ;-)

      She helped him change his reed, and wiped off end.

      It was all a misunderstanding.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    8. Re:Thank you, Presidents Reagan and Clinton. by fustakrakich · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If public service workers received all the same perks as a congressman or president, they wouldn't need a union.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    9. Re:Thank you, Presidents Reagan and Clinton. by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No, because he knew it would turn into exactly what it turned into: a mutual feedback loop between politicians and unions, with very little restraining growth in numbers or benefits, unlike private sector unions.

      It's pretty much taking a collapse of the local tax bases to reign it in as jobs flee.

      No, government union supporters. The solution is not an all-encompassing power over every living being so there's nowhere for jobs to flee to.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    10. Re:Thank you, Presidents Reagan and Clinton. by Bartles · · Score: 3, Insightful

      We would be a lot better off if we had more liberal Democrats, instead of the authoritarian Democrats we have today.

    11. Re:Thank you, Presidents Reagan and Clinton. by operagost · · Score: 2

      ... made of government employees.

      Many private sector unions are corrupt, but we can deal with that. We can't have corrupt government unions-- because those affect every one of us by become parasites of the public interest.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    12. Re:Thank you, Presidents Reagan and Clinton. by operagost · · Score: 2

      No, but "Devil with a Blue Dress On" is a rock'n'roll song.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    13. Re:Thank you, Presidents Reagan and Clinton. by Shakrai · · Score: 3, Informative

      If you're referring to the Air Traffic Controllers you may wish to consider this quote from that Tea Party wacko known as Franklin Delano Roosevelt: (emphasis mine)

      All Government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations when applied to public personnel management. The very nature and purposes of Government make it impossible for administrative officials to represent fully or to bind the employer in mutual discussions with Government employee organizations. The employer is the whole people, who speak by means of laws enacted by their representatives in Congress. Accordingly, administrative officials and employees alike are governed and guided, and in many instances restricted, by laws which establish policies, procedures, or rules in personnel matters.

      Particularly, I want to emphasize my conviction that militant tactics have no place in the functions of any organization of Government employees. Upon employees in the Federal service rests the obligation to serve the whole people, whose interests and welfare require orderliness and continuity in the conduct of Government activities. This obligation is paramount. Since their own services have to do with the functioning of the Government, a strike of public employees manifests nothing less than an intent on their part to prevent or obstruct the operations of Government until their demands are satisfied. Such action, looking toward the paralysis of Government by those who have sworn to support it, is unthinkable and intolerable. It is, therefore, with a feeling of gratification that I have noted in the constitution of the National Federation of Federal Employees the provision that "under no circumstances shall this Federation engage in or support strikes against the United States Government."

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    14. Re:Thank you, Presidents Reagan and Clinton. by Shakrai · · Score: 3, Interesting

      They may or may not need collective bargaining; I am honestly undecided on that point and could go either way. I do however firmly agree with the points I emphasized from the second quoted paragraph, specifically, "Since their own services have to do with the functioning of the Government, a strike of public employees manifests nothing less than an intent on their part to prevent or obstruct the operations of Government until their demands are satisfied. Such action, looking toward the paralysis of Government by those who have sworn to support it, is unthinkable and intolerable."

      The ATC strike threatened to shut down the entire country. In no particular order:

      The financial sector would have been shut down, since paper checks still had to be exchanged between banks in those days. Checks were primarily moved via mail, which relies heavily on air travel. This situation persisted until Check 21 was passed, largely in response to the disruption caused by the 9/11 shut down.
      Related, USPS would have been crippled, with consequences far and wide. Ditto for Fedex and UPS.
      The disruption to air travel would have cost the economy billions of dollars. See 9/11 and the fallout from just three lousy days of shut down, then consider the fact that telecommuting and video conferencing did not really exist in those days, so the economy was that much more dependent on air travel.
      Medical flights would have been disrupted, directly placing lives at risk.

      Whatever legitimate gripes public sector workers may have they do not get to hold hundreds of millions of people hostage to their demands. You accept certain tradeoffs when you go to work for Uncle Sam; in exchange for job security that private sector workers can only dream about you accept lower pay (vis-a-via the private sector), lousy hours, and the intrusion of politics into the workplace. There's a reason why it's called public service and if you're unwilling to accept those tradeoffs perhaps you should stay in the private sector?

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    15. Re:Thank you, Presidents Reagan and Clinton. by Shirley+Marquez · · Score: 2

      The air traffic controllers union strike was mostly about improvements in working conditions, not wages. ATC is a famously difficult job that burns people out in a few years.

      It's true that the union made a bad decision when they accepted a no-strike contract. But they assumed that the government would negotiate with them in good faith. The Reagan administration did not; they made an offer and said "take it or leave it", and Reagan's offer did not include any of the changes in work conditions that the union was asking for.

      I refuse to call a certain airport in Washington DC by its current name for that reason. Naming an airport for Reagan is an abomination, an insult to workers.

  2. If only that were enough... by mi · · Score: 2

    If only GPS were enough to stop the shootings-down of airliners by Russians...

    --
    In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    1. Re:If only that were enough... by mi · · Score: 4, Informative

      Or the shooting down of airliners by Americans...

      That was in 1988 — before Reagan-intensified initiative was completed and GPS came into common usage.

      Or the Ukrainians - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S...

      Interestingly enough, the Ukrainians responsible for that disaster are currently Russians — the missile came from Crimea...

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    2. Re:If only that were enough... by Zontar_Thing_From_Ve · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Or the Ukrainians - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S...

      Interestingly enough, the Ukrainians responsible for that disaster are currently Russians — the missile came from Crimea...

      You won't find this in the Wikipedia article, but there are rumors in some intelligence circles that this flight was actually shot down by the Russians and Ukraine took the rap because they could play the "Duh! We so stupid! Not know what we doing! Soldiers were drunk!" card in exchange for some sort of special favor from Russia. That may not be true and it may be that Ukraine really shot it down through incompetence, but I just wanted to point out that there are some who don't buy the official explanation.

    3. Re:If only that were enough... by mi · · Score: 3, Insightful

      there are rumors in some intelligence circles that this flight was actually shot down by the Russians and Ukraine took the rap because they could play the "Duh! We so stupid! Not know what we doing! Soldiers were drunk!" card in exchange for some sort of special favor from Russia.

      Not a few Ukrainian officers and soldiers staged in Crimea defected to Russia, when the aggressor openly invaded the peninsula in February 2014.

      Some of them, no doubt, have taken Putin's shilling even earlier...

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    4. Re:If only that were enough... by Charliemopps · · Score: 2

      Not that I normally defend US military action... but come on.
      While the incidents themselves, if looked at without broader context, are nearly identical... you can't actually look at them without the broader context.
      Why was the US warship there in the first place? Iran was at war with Iraq, and had started to attack US oil tankers off shore. The US Military sent US Naval ships as escorts. Then Iran started actively attacking US warships. That ship had been under attack by Iranian gun boats just and hour earlier and that plane had taken off from a based that F14 attack craft were routinely operated out of.

      Why did the Russians have anti-aircraft batteries in Ukraine? Oh that's right... they still claim they didn't. Because they're trying to over-throw the sovereign government in an attempt to prevent them from joining the EU.

      The US ship was on a defense mission, and mistook the Iranian Civilian aircraft as one of the many Iranian warplanes that were about. The Russian battery was there to attack the legitimate government of the land it was currently occupying, and mistook the Civilian aircraft from an entirely different country for a warplane they were attacking... not defending against. Also, that warplane was no threat to that missile battery itself.

    5. Re:If only that were enough... by dunkelfalke · · Score: 2

      Now I know that you are bloody conspiracy-theorist. It was even in the ATC transcripts - the dispatcher was trying to shoo the Polish airplane away because there were no landing conditions whatsoever. Two airplanes have tried to land earlier. One of them (Yak-40 with journalists) almost crash-landed, the other (an Il-76) tried to land for two times and has given up.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    6. Re:If only that were enough... by Shakrai · · Score: 5, Informative

      Not that I normally defend US military action... but come on.

      Why was the US warship there in the first place? Iran was at war with Iraq, and had started to attack US oil tankers off shore. The US Military sent US Naval ships as escorts. Then Iran started actively attacking US warships. That ship had been under attack by Iranian gun boats just and hour earlier and that plane had taken off from a based that F14 attack craft were routinely operated out of.

      I do normally defend US military action but I will not defend the shoot down of the Iranian airliner. Captain Rogers was a trigger happy asshole, with a poorly trained crew that was oblivious to what their instruments were reporting. The instruments aboard the USS Vincennes reported a climbing aircraft that was squawking Mode III (Civilian) IFF; the crew somehow interpreted this as a descending aircraft squawking a military code, which would actually be a legitimate threat to the ship, but that was not what was reported by their instruments.

      If you want to be generous to Captain Rogers you can call it an example of scenario fulfillment but I'm not willing to give him that much benefit of the doubt. The Commanding Officer of at least one neighboring ship thought he was reckless and trigger happy (*) and his crew's failure to properly operate their ship represents a gross failure of training and accountability that the Captain of said ship is ultimately responsible for.

      (*) See the various media interviews of Commander Carlson, Captain of the USS Sides, which was assigned to the same mission and tracked Iran Air Flight 655 on her own radar prior to the shootdown.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    7. Re:If only that were enough... by Shakrai · · Score: 2

      Yes, I'm aware of that part of the story. It doesn't exonerate Captain Rogers, nor can it explain why his crew was seemingly unable to read the information that was staring them in the face, specifically the fact that the aircraft was climbing the entire time they tracked it. That flight profile screams "NOT A THREAT" to anyone versed in anti air warfare, which you would expect the crew of an air defense cruiser to be, yet somehow they reported the contact as descending on an attack vector. There were doubtless many reasons for this failure, combat stress, the newness (at the time) of the AEGIS combat system, the double IFF response, the failure to establish communications with Iran Air 655, and so on. None of those facts excuse the failure though, at the end of the day the Captain of a ship is responsible for the happenings aboard ship, whether he could have influenced them or not, and Captain Rogers certainly had control over the training of his crew.

      Training standards aboard the Vincennes were so bad that the anti-air warfare officer couldn't even complete the firing procedure; the "trigger" was ultimately "pulled" by an enlisted man in the CIC. On that basis alone Captain Rogers should have faced a court martial for dereliction of duty. US Navy Captains have faced the court martial for a lot less, see Charles B. McVay III for one of the most unjust examples.

      Rogers was also aggressive to the point of recklessness, violating the standing Rules of Engagement several times. He was looking for a fight throughout the entire deployment, using his two billion dollar air defense cruiser to engage gunboats that were barely worthy of the name. The chip he carried on his shoulder could well have gotten his crew killed. Bottom line: At the end of the day none of those poor souls aboard Iran Air Flight 655 had to die. The Navy covered its ass, for various reasons, and none of the survivor's families will ever see justice worthy of the name. Want to add more insult to injury? The airliner was practically within visual range when the order to fire was given. A decent pair of binoculars would have sufficed to positively identify the target at 11 nautical miles, which was the range when the order to fire was given.

      I say all of these things as a huge supporter of the US Navy and a jingoistic American; I have no lost love for the Islamic Republic and would not normally second guess someone responsible for the lives of 350 men in a war zone. In this case though the facts are pretty hard to dispute, it was a failure of training, personality, and leadership. In a just world Rogers would have faced the courts martial, as would several of the officers under his command, but we don't live in a just world....

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
  3. timeline by afidel · · Score: 5, Informative

    But in 1995, as promised, it was available to private companies for consumer applications

    Say what? There were consumer GPS receivers in the late 1980's, in fact in the first Gulf War (2 August 1990 – 28 February 1991) many soldiers used commercial units purchased from US retailers because the crypto hardened milspec units were in such short supply. In fact I'm not sure what they're referring to with the 1995 date, since the biggest change wrt consumer use was Clinton's order to permanently disable selective availability, but that wasn't until 2000.

    --
    There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    1. Re:timeline by dj245 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      But in 1995, as promised, it was available to private companies for consumer applications

      Say what? There were consumer GPS receivers in the late 1980's, in fact in the first Gulf War (2 August 1990 – 28 February 1991) many soldiers used commercial units purchased from US retailers because the crypto hardened milspec units were in such short supply. In fact I'm not sure what they're referring to with the 1995 date, since the biggest change wrt consumer use was Clinton's order to permanently disable selective availability, but that wasn't until 2000.

      I believe the 1995 date refers to the date at which the GPS satellite constellation was completed, in other words when the full set of 24 satellites was operational. You need just 4 signals to get a cold location fix without making assumptions, but prior to 1995 it is probable that in some parts of the world, 4 satellites were not visible at certain times. Prior to 1995 the system wasn't complete.

      I can't find any information in 1980s GPS units, but given the nature of the calculations required to obtain a locational fix, and the processing power available in that era, they must have been excitingly expensive.

      --
      Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
    2. Re:timeline by SJHillman · · Score: 3, Informative

      According to this timeline of GPS, the first to market with a hand-GPS was the Magellan NAV 1000 in 1989.

      However, in 1990, the DoD decreased the accuracy of the system - before the start of the First Gulf War.

      In 1994, the FAA and Clinton tells the worldwide (commercial) airline industry that GPS is free for them to use for the "foreseeable future"

      1995 was when the first GPS constellation was finally complete, so that at least 4 satellites were always visible from any point on at Earth.

      Source: http://www.techhive.com/articl...

    3. Re:timeline by alen · · Score: 2

      at the time the military ones were accurate to a few feet while the consumer ones to several hundred feet. the military GPS units you had to load a special crypto key to give them good accuracy

    4. Re:timeline by tlhIngan · · Score: 5, Informative

      . During the gulf war public use was actually turned off so the military could have better access. So I don't know how well those commercial ones you speak of worked. Then in 1993 it was back on

      No, public access was never turned off. You need the "public" (C/A for Coarse Acquisition) signal even to get the P (precision?) military signal.

      A military receiver first acquires the C/A signal, like a civilian receiver. it needs this in order to get all the timing locked up so it can then acquire the P signal to get the necessary correction information.

      During the first Gulf War, military GPS units were hard to get, so they turned off selective availability so soldiers could use the civilian GPS units they brought with them. Then once the war was over, they turned selective availability back on to make the results imprecise.

      All GPS units need the public (C/A) signal first before they can do anything.

    5. Re:timeline by Russ1642 · · Score: 2

      Ask most people how GPS works and they'll assume it establishes communication with a satellite. Most people haven't given it a second thought. Most people are completely ignorant of how their daily use technology actually works.

    6. Re:timeline by mtempsch · · Score: 3, Informative

      During the gulf war public use was actually turned off so the military could have better access.

      Huh? GPS satellites are not wireless access points with a limited number of users supported -- they broadcast a signal that anyone can receive (the number of users has zero impact on other users).

      I assume GP has confused, and was referring to, the turning off of SA (selective availability), that when on deteriorates the precision of civilian receivers - thus improving the precision availble to the military units that couldn't get proper military grade receivers but instead had civilian receivers. As you say, number of users/receivers has no effect on the system, as they're just listening - just like FM radio sets...

    7. Re:timeline by dbc · · Score: 4, Interesting

      You are right about GPS being available, but with a limited constellation. But the prices weren't awful -- in the sailing world they were comparable with other navigation electronics. I learned to sail during the transition -- people still had LORAN receivers, and long-haul sailors still needed to know celestial navigation, but a GPS was certainly a gizmo you could afford for you boat. But sailors crossing the Pacific might go hours without a GPS fix, because not enough birds were in view.

    8. Re:timeline by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This is not true, military receivers can do direct P(Y) acquisition and have been able to do so for some time. Try googling for "direct P(Y) code acquisition".

  4. Original Article? by IMarvinTPA · · Score: 5, Insightful

    So, which of these links is the original article the large excerpt is from?

    I really wish OA was linked separately at the top or something. Why was it the 3rd link? Why not anchor it on "The Atlantic" in the first line?

    http://www.theatlantic.com/tec...

    Thanks...

  5. Paper maps and confusing directions? by plopez · · Score: 3, Interesting

    In my experience GPS let's you down when you need it the most. More than once I have had to fall back to maps and a compass when the terrain got too rough for GPS to work. As far as confusing directions go talk to the people, if they are still alive, who got stuck or drove their car over cliffs etc. I still do not trust it except under the best conditions and when I have another method to confirm its correctness.

    --
    putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
    1. Re:Paper maps and confusing directions? by Russ1642 · · Score: 4, Funny

      GPS doesn't work in caves either. GPS sucks and should be abandoned. What a waste of resources getting those stupid satellites up there.

    2. Re:Paper maps and confusing directions? by Richard_at_work · · Score: 5, Insightful

      GPS isn't a substitute for actually thinking about stuff as you do it.

    3. Re:Paper maps and confusing directions? by gstoddart · · Score: 5, Insightful

      As far as confusing directions go talk to the people, if they are still alive, who got stuck or drove their car over cliffs etc

      You know, you're still operating the damned car, and you're still responsible for where it goes.

      If you drove your car off a cliff because your GPS told you to go straight off a cliff, you would have driven off a cliff sooner or later anyway.

      Because apparently you don't think things through very well.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    4. Re:Paper maps and confusing directions? by Jason+Levine · · Score: 2

      I had the opportunity to use a car with GPS-enabled navigation during a trip to New York City. At one point, the GPS navigation insisted that I was driving in the middle of the Hudson river. (I was definitely *not*.) Apparently, the signals can bounce off of the tall buildings and make the GPS unit think it is somewhere else. Luckily, I wasn't relying solely on GPS navigation and wouldn't be so stupid as to drive in an area that I'm not supposed to drive just because GPS told me to. If someone is going to drive off a cliff because GPS says "turn left" and there's a cliff there, then they're likely stupid enough to turn left because Old Man McGillicutty said to turn left too early in his directions.

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
  6. Wait a minute...Ronald Reagan? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    The ACTOR?!?!?

    1. Re:Wait a minute...Ronald Reagan? by Pope+Hagbard · · Score: 3, Funny

      Please, it's Our Savior St. Reagan-of-the-deficits.

    2. Re:Wait a minute...Ronald Reagan? by neo-mkrey · · Score: 2

      Who's the Vice President? Jerry Lewis?

  7. Paper Maps by OzPeter · · Score: 2

    GPS is great for telling you HOW to to another location. What it can't do is tell you WHY you want to go to that other location. On the other hand you can look at a paper map and go "That looks like a spot I WANT to go to".

    --
    I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
    1. Re:Paper Maps by Russ1642 · · Score: 4, Informative

      GPS doesn't tell you how to get anywhere. It tells you where you are and that's it.

  8. Re:Walkers still use paper maps by SJHillman · · Score: 3, Funny

    "Paper maps don't go flat"

    My paper maps are pretty flat to begin with... actually, all of my paper is.

  9. Getting shot down =/= crashing... by x0 · · Score: 2

    Seriously, when did it become OK to revise history that getting shot down by an Russian Su-15 with a Kaliningrad missile is now a crash?

    --
    In the immortal words of Socrates, who said; 'I drank what?'
  10. Re:So, what USA revenge gave us? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    I don't know what you mean by 'celebrated revenge' but that was simply an accident. The ship's crew misidentified the aircraft and made a bad decision. The US paid restitution to families of those who were killed, as well. You're trying to make it sound as if they knowingly shot down a civilian aircraft. What would that accomplish?

  11. Re:Walkers still use paper maps by NoImNotNineVolt · · Score: 2

    And smartphone-GPS users carry their smartphones in Otterbox cases. If you think either one of those solutions is flawless and guaranteed to work 100% of the time, you must not hike much.

    The stars are not visible during the day, but the sun is. Of course, if it's cloudy, you're not going to have the sun or the stars. Which brings us to my original point. No method of navigation is perfect and each has its advantages and drawbacks. Everyone has their own threshholds for what is reasonable and what is necessary.

    --
    Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
  12. Not how I remember it by mbone · · Score: 4, Informative

    And I was there.

    Reagan may have sped up this or that, but

    - GPS was designed as a mixed civilian / military system. That's why there WAS selective availability (AKA SA - fuzzing of civilian accuracy). SA was designed to give 30 meter accuracy, and lots of civilian needs could still be met with that accuracy.
    - Lots of us wondered why KAL 007 didn't have GPS - a 30 meter error was tiny compared to their actual error.
    - There was intense commercial interest in GPS in 1983.
    - Use of GPS has always been free - even under SA, you either had the keys to decrypt it, or not.
    - The real big push for commercial development came during the first Gulf War, when we didn't have nearly enough military units, and so Charley Trimble (Trimble Navigation - and others) got a huge order to send outdoor units to the Persian Gulf ASAP - AND they turned off Selective Availability (globally, for the duration).

    The part about Clinton and SA was accurate. However, by the 90's. a lot of people were working on work-arounds for SA. SA implemented by making each satellite's clock go fast and slow deliberately, so you could fix it by having a ground station with a good clock looking at the same satellite, and sending corrections, so removing SA wasn't as big a deal as it would have been in 1985.

  13. Underworld by DarthVain · · Score: 2

    or under water. or under canopy. or under anything really.

    GPS requires direct line of sight to at least 3-4 satellites.

    Anyway it is just a limitation of the system, as does anything.

    I started with commercial GPS in 1995 myself, so went though the stage of scrambled to non-scrambled GPS. The oldest device I used was a Garmin SVRY II, which tells me that there was at least one shittier version before that :)

    Surprised no one mentioned base stations. Which were really the way commercial GPS got around the military scramble. Old school GPS would communicate, or could be corrected by local base station data, which were at a good known locations and coordinates. Of course I think they are all gone now, as they are no longer needed. Though in some cases the electronics of the day being what they were would require a computer and post interpolation of the data as the devices themselves didn't have the guts to do it.

    That said there is nothing stopping the military from turning on the scramble again and making all your new fangled GPS rather useless, now that all the base stations are gone! Which is probably was Russia has their own. As does Japan (sort of). The EU and India are building their own. So much distrust! Or at least perceived dependence on GPS,

    Then again, I am pretty sure GPS assist uses cell towers in much the same way, so long as you're in cellphone range you would probably be OK (each tower would be at know good coordinate locations).

  14. Re:So what will MH17 and MH370 give us? by dunkelfalke · · Score: 2

    In-flight telemetry already exists. Has existed for a while, actually. That is why AF447 was found. Unfortunately it is not really real-time (which surprises me - I develop software for vehicle tracking, it is a very sensible thing to do).

    MH17's lesson is: "close the airspace above a war zone". Should be obvious, really.

    --
    "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
  15. Re:Godwin's Law by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 2

    (This is meant to be a joke.)

    It failed its design objective, then.

    --

    "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
  16. Re:gps still blows by Wookact · · Score: 3, Interesting

    So it is Clinton's fault you purchased an inferior product, and that you are not observant enough to watch where you are going?

  17. And all it took was a dead Congressman by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Funny

    Just think what wonders we could have if we shot them all.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  18. Re:Walkers still use paper maps by Russ1642 · · Score: 2

    SAR stats are going to show that lost hikers have cellphones and no maps. They aren't lost BECAUSE OF GPS - they're lost because they're idiots. Of course they have cell phones. Everyone has one all the time. Of course they have no paper maps - they're idiots. They're lost because they can't read a map, didn't bring a map (electronic or paper), and they have no navigation skills. It's not a problem with the technology, it's a problem with their idiot brains. Plenty of people had to be rescued before GPS came along. And no, you can't locate yourself on the map faster than GPS unless you already know where you are. It takes as long to get ONE compass reading, let alone try and triangulate and all that crap. When you're a little lost and you want to verify your location GPS kicks ass, and nobody's stopping you from confirming the reading by taking a look around.

  19. Re:Walkers still use paper maps by Shakrai · · Score: 2

    Couldn't the same be said of people who are stupid enough to try and use their compass and paper map instead of navigating by the stars? I mean, what if your map is blown away by a gust of wind, then you're screwed!

    Didn't you read the part where he said he was in the UK? Have you ever seen stars or blue skies in the UK? I sure as hell haven't. Stellar navigation doesn't work when you're looking at the bottom of a cumulus cloud. ;)

    --
    I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
    We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
  20. Selective avaialibilty is still a thing by m76 · · Score: 2

    As someone who uses GPS technology extensively for work, I have to say, that selective avaialibilty is still very much in action. The US can I assume at a push of a button distort the data avaialable. Or is it coincidence that the data reliability is at times very unreliable near Ukraine since the crisis? Not as much to throw off consumer gps navigation devices, but enough to render GPS based targeting systems useless I'd say.