Microsoft Losing the School Markets To iPads and Chromebooks

dkatana writes Microsoft's licensing scheme, the high cost of support and difficult management of devices are the key factors making schools drop Windows for better alternatives as iPads and Chromebooks. Google is making a dent in the education market with Chromebooks. The internet giant has been promoting the use of Chrome OS with specific tools for schools to manage the devices, their apps and users. Its Chromebooks for Education program is helping schools deploy large numbers of devices with an easy management system. While Google is successful with Chromebooks as school laptops the clear winner on tablets is Apple. iPads are a the preferred platform for schools deploying tablets as digital learning devices.

Comments

Microsoft losing to the school what?

[BringsApples]

Did I just read "School Market"? Leave my kids alone!

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[Urban Nightmare]

Here here. I'm not a fan of either MS or Apple but I'm even less of a fan computers in the classroom. Computers do have their place for research and writing papers but I just don't think they need to be used every day in the classroom.

Now I may be an old fuddy-duddy, but I still haven't seen conclusive evidence that they make learning any easier or better.

But that's only my 2 cents.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[BarbaraHudson]

I still haven't seen conclusive evidence that they make learning any easier or better.

I've seen studies that have shown that they interfere with learning, but none (that weren't sponsored by someone trying to sell stuff) that showed they improved learning.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[Anonymous Coward]

I just went to my kid's parent-teacher conference. It took the teacher several minutes of fiddling with the computer to get to the point where I could "sign in" as having shown up. Would've taken seconds with a paper list.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[Stormwatch]

Here here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[ShanghaiBill]

I've seen studies that have shown that they interfere with learning, but none that showed they improved learning.

Warning, anecdotal evidence ahead:
I regularly volunteer at my kids school, and have worked with their "special needs" kids, including several autistic students. These are kids that have difficulty with human interaction, and don't do well in a regular classroom. But they seem to interact well with tablets, and there are some apps that are specifically tailored to autistic kids. So tablets do seem to have a niche. But for "normal" kids, I agree that tablets are a distraction and a waste of resources.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[jeffb (2.718)]

There, there.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[globaljustin]

in general you're right...

i'd want a "tech cart" with laptops for all of them so they can take quizes and such...instant grading for multiple choice quiz...which frees up the teacher to focus on students with special needs

but yeah, inherently you're right

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's see:

Send your kid to school with an ipad: 600$
Send you school to kid with half their bodyweight in books: multi-thousand dollars in medical costs when they slip on the ice or break a bone when another kid hits them with their own 50lbs of books.

I SEE the reasoning why an iPad or any other computer might not belong in the classroom, but there are other costs that people don't even think about. Certain classes do not warrant an iPad, eg PE (in which even cell phones should be banned from) but anything that involves sitting means it can be done sitting somewhere more pertinent to the study. Like if the class is going on a field trip, instead of going there and not doing anything productive (really when was the last time a field trip was productive unless it was PE) you whip out the ipad and tell the students to take pictures of the following exhibits, requiring them to find and read.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[Noah Haders]

or with an ipad...

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[quenda]

Here here.

Where, where?

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[Immerman]

Never took a scantron test in school I take it? All the benefits of near-instant grading of multiple choice exams, none of the distractions or expense of having a computer in front of the students while they're taking an exam.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[Anonymous Coward]

ipad would have broken seconds after the 3rd person touched it, they're craftsmanship is crap, their construction is weak, and their OS is pure garbage.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[funwithBSD]

My son is on the mild side of the autistic spectrum, with sensory/motor issues, particularly fine motor skills.

He has used a computer since 1st grade as his ability to write with a pencil is compromised. Writing assignments that are in class are done on the computer, and then sent to the class printer.

I have a hard time finding a fault with computers in the classroom. I spend 8 to 12 hrs a working day on the computer, he will probably follow that path.

How much better it is to integrate it into his skill set then use it to do useful things, rather than take a "computer class" to learn to use Word.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[Immerman]

Economics fail: analysis of probabilistic expenses need to factor in the probability of occurrence. Expected cost = (multi-thousand dollars in medical costs) * (near-zero odds of such an accident occurring) $600. And don't forget the alternate risks of mugging you're subjecting children to by having them carry around a $600 thief-magnet rather than some books nobody wants.

And your use case may sound good, but we all know what will usually happen is that most students will spend their time chatting online, playing video games, etc. and get less out of the experience than if they had no supplies at all. And what's wrong with carrying a paper and pencil and an applicable textbook? Much cheaper when inevitably lost or destroyed, and they'll even get a bit more exercise in the bargain, and lord only knows they probably need it.

There may be a niche for integrating computers computers into general education for normal children, but it would probably have to be a purpose-built machine: everything I've seen to date is worse than useless for the purpose.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Hear, hear"

Publiek Skooling much?

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Now, now."

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Kids, these days. We had to walk to school in driving snow, uphill both ways, with only a slate and chalk in hand.

Now get off my lawn.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[davester666]

Sorry, your children have already been purchased for rest of their time in school. It will cost you $20,000 if you want to take them out of school and try to screw them up yourself.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[SuperKendall]

Certain classes do not warrant an iPad, eg PE

There are a number of sport performance monitor apps that exist for the iPad, some that make use of the camera to record and monitor form... a tablet can actually be very helpful for sports being a computer and camera integrated.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[Spy Handler]

if he had a Chromebook while he was in school, he might've learned how to spell Hear Hear properly...

Re: Microsoft losing to the school what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Like your post? THAT is complete crap and garbage. You really don't know what you are talking about. You just don't.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[dgatwood]

They're their there.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Heuked on Phoenix twerked four mi.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[ATMAvatar]

Scantron was rather notorious for missing bubbles that weren't filled-in just right or with the right type of pencil when I was still in school. Has it gotten any better?

Re: Microsoft losing to the school what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hah. Fuck "studies."

Load up a social app in the middle if the day. Guaranteed to be kids everywhere saying "ermahgurd I'm soooo bored". And if you knew how many adults were with them saying horrible things if not outright flirting with them you would not only support removing technology from schools, but probably from their lives entirely.

Re: Microsoft losing to the school what?

[Anonymous Coward]

When i was in middle school I carried every book I needed through the day on me at all times.

Result: I have strong bones and muscles.

You may have grown up to be a massive pussy, but why would you want your kid to turn out like you?

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[rtb61]

Basically the first point of using computers in school is to save money. Instead or inordinately expensive, soon to be out of date text books, free online creative commons texts continually refined, represents a major saving. When it comes to laptops versus tablets, the obvious difference is between creating content versus consuming licensed content. Obviously creating content is far better than being a manipulated target market for corporate profits and blindly consuming licensed content.

The big advantage in using computers in schools will be the teaching of complex simulations, where students learn the outcomes of manipulating the inputs and for the more advanced students the impacts of altering the controlling algorithms. Shifting from simple quick dirty physics (ignoring a lot of the inputs) to more actual physics based on real interactions that can be simulated using many more inputs will enable teaching more but of course only for those capable of absorbing it.

Computer education on it's own will never really do so much for the below average intellect but for the above average intellect it will provide many opportunities for greater early learning. The interesting problem this will create in the classroom, is a profound intellectual divide, as those who can race ahead and the other 50% fall further behind, to become disgruntled right wingers for whom thinking from the gut is smart and who consider higher education qualifications a stupid waste of time.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[brantondaveperson]

That's right, children should not be taught to use the single most important innovation in communication and content creation to be invented since the pencil and paper.

Oh. Wait.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you seen conclusive evidence that they make learning any harder or worse? Why is the assumption that unless something's provably better we stick with the status quo? Do you think the epitome of education was reached in the 1800s and we just have to keep replicating that? Doesn't work unless you keep the adult world running on 19th century technology too, which we haven't.

I may be an old fuddy-duddy

Nah, if you were a fuddy-duddy you'd know the phrase was "hear, hear" :p

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[binarylarry]

well if you don't want them stealing your kids iPad, buy them Microsoft Surfaces instead. Problem solved.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[Anonymous Coward]

It will cost you $20,000 if you want to take them out of school and try to screw them up yourself.

In my area it's about $115 per kid, per year, for home schooling. There's a local place (in my neighborhood) that facilitates this schooling, about 20 kids currently attend, and it's free. The lady that runs it was a teacher earlier in life, and enjoys doing it this way.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[BringsApples]

And let's not forget that the only reason that these computers are given to the kids is simply to get them accustomed to the interface. The companies that are giving these laptops to the schools are not interested in the kids' learning progress, unless you're talking about learning the OS. They just want to get their product well understood in the kids' minds so that later in life, they'll automatically choose that OS. And all of this is expected to happen, as if nothing in the world is going to change in 10 years or so.

But who knows, maybe the whole thing will back fire. Maybe kids will grow out of computers like they grow out of toys.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[Anonymous Coward]

And while at it turn on spell checking , but then don't be surprised when kids don't know the difference between there and their.

No offense but MY kid's ability to use his hands is not compromised, and I want him to do other things but bang on keyboard long before learning to use a computer. Also, as someone who has learned to "properly" type on a keyboard in 7th grade, long before computers were in vogue, I think it would be a good learning lesson to teach the kid to properly type on a keyboard rather than woodpecking the keyboard with two fingers.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[BringsApples]

Yes, the typical scantron was replaced by some other, and it was able to detect any mark, even made by pen.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[BringsApples]

"Hear, hear" (usually with a comma and set apart as a self-contained sentence) is the conventional spelling of the colloquial exclamation used to express approval for a speaker or sentiment. It’s essentially short for "hear him, hear him" or "hear this, hear this", where these phrases are a sort of cheer.

"Here, here" is widely regarded as a misspelling, although it is a common one, and there are ways to logically justify its use. But for what it’s worth, "hear, hear" is the original form (the Oxford English Dictionary cites examples going back to the 17th century) and is the one listed in dictionaries. English reference books mention "here, here" only to note that it’s wrong.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you think textbooks are cheaper, you clearly don't have kids.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[Eponymous Coward]

Well, it's still early days as far as education and computers go. There are some amazing resources out there though. For example, my kids regularly use Khan Academy. For some reason, the way he explains things just clicks with them.

For anything Khan doesn't cover, Wolfram Alpha is an unbelievable tool.

For writing, some kids are going to do better on a text editor or word processor. I know I can no longer sit down with a pen and an empty page and just write.

I'm glad to see schools trying new things though. You could take a teacher from 150 years ago and drop them into a classroom and they would be able to work as a teacher. There aren't too many professions where that's true and it seems like we should be able to do better.

One thing that is working well for my kids is reversed classrooms. Rather than get a lesson in class then homework problems, they are expected to learn the material for homework and the teacher helps kids with problems during class. It doesn't work for every kid though and our one-size-fits-all approach fails too many kids.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[MachineShedFred]

but we all know what will usually happen is that most students will spend their time chatting online, playing video games, etc.

Now only if there was some way to manage a device to not allow ad hoc app installs, or disable functionality you don't want the user to have...

Do you really think that people haven't thought of that years ago when they first started doing this?

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[Jason Levine]

It's worse than simply who provides computers to schools. Big companies, like Pearson, see dollar signs when it comes to schools. They write curriculum for the schools to use (using Pearson textbooks, of course) and tests to make sure that the students are learning the Pearson lessons the right way. Of course, passing students don't have more monetary possibilities, so they make the tests to show that the kids are failing. This way they can sell courses to the teachers/administrators, more textbooks, etc.

Meanwhile, Charter schools run by businesses are popping up all over. These schools get to pick and choose which students they allow in but take public school money. This leaves the public schools with less funding and a higher percentage of high-needs students which, in turn, leads to calls that the public schools are failing and need to be replaced. The Charter schools aren't non-profit entities, though, so some of that public school money (your tax dollars) goes into the pockets of the businesses that run the charter schools.

Sadly, my state's governor - Andrew Cuomo - has made it clear he would love to replace all public schools with Charter schools. I guess public schools don't donate enough to re-election campaigns.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[Jason Levine]

My son is similar to yours. He is diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome and this, plus some muscle tone issues, makes it hard for him to write for a long period of time. Getting him to write out assignments with a pen/pencil is an uphill battle. It frustrates him to no end which spills over into disruptive behavior in class. His IEP has provisions to allow him to use a NetBook which vastly improves his writing capabilities.

I was just like him when I was young. I used to HATE writing assignments. My brain would go faster than my pen and I'd need to re-write passages five times just to fix small mistakes. Then I got a computer and - even with my initial hunt-and-peck typing skills - could get a paper written much quicker and easier.

Computers don't need to be used for everything, but they definitely have a place in the classroom.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[ShanghaiBill]

I think it would be a good learning lesson to teach the kid to properly type on a keyboard rather than woodpecking the keyboard with two fingers.

Some schools are doing this. My kids' school teaches touch typing starting in 4th grade. To make room in the curriculum, they cut out cursive writing practice. The kids only learn enough cursive to sign their name. The ability to write out a letter or essay in cursive is about as useful as knowing how to shoe a horse.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[sandytaru]

A teacher in NC said that she found the iPads were good equalizers for kids with dyslexia as well. They could zoom in and out until they found a print size that didn't make their eyes swim, and also change fonts in their text books to one they found easier to read. (I heard the special dyslexic "weighted" font has officially been released now; hopefully some of those kids can get it loaded on their systems.)

That was the only praise she had for the iPads, though. Her biggest complaint was that the teacher's tools were not as robust as they could be; that she still had to do a lot of manual work for grading things that could have just as easily been automated (e.g. no way to store a score for an assignment within the system, just whether it was completed or not.)

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[BarbaraHudson]

I spend 8 to 12 hrs a working day on the computer, he will probably follow that path.

That is SO sad.

Will he be emigrating to India so he can afford to live on what "any sort of computer skilz" will pay when he's older?

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[sandytaru]

I think it's still useful to be able to read cursive, but I agree that writing it seems kind of pointless today. Want something fancy? Use a cursive font, it'll actually be legible that way too.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[sandytaru]

There was also that huge cheating scandal in Atlanta a few years ago where the teachers would go through and correct students tests so they'd get a passing grade.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[Cro Magnon]

They probably taught him, but he didn't listen.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Chromebooks are about $200 new. Not quite a thief-magnet. They also have a keyboard (somewhat useful for writing papers etc.).

The computer doesn't need to be integrated into the classroom setting. The schools that have effectively used them use them for independent work. My children's school doesn't provide computers or tablets, but the children need them. The nice thing about google docs is it is so easy to keep organized for the student and teachers.

You write a paper, share it with the teacher, they comment on it. If it is a group project, students can easily collaborate online.

My children have access to a computer. Others do not. They are at a BIG disadvantage. There are computers at school they can use, but that means they have to get everything done while they are there.

I can't fault a school district for providing basic computing to all students. A chromebook is an excellent way to do this since they are cheap, easy to administer, and do the basic tasks that need to be done.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[funwithBSD]

He was learning touch typing at 4 years old. Until he got good at it he was required to use a typing game to learn it. And yes, he has the hand reach to do it, both my wife and I have 12th reach on the piano, and he inherited it. Don't assume.

And I make him look words up in the dictionary if he spells it wrong or uses a homonym. Drives him crazy, but we are down to 1 or two per paragraph and it gets better every year.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[funwithBSD]

What a strange comment.

I don't know where his career path will take him. He is a fair artist with a number of medium, and may go into the creative arts like his mother.

Or he might go IT like Dad. hard to say.
Hell, my first degree is Humanities, I just turned out to be that good at IT and I wanted a job. And I use it a lot, I produce a lot of written materials like whitepapers and technical solution documents. Being good at IT and the written word is a huge advantage. I haven logged into a server in 5 years, now I plan how they get there, how they will be used, and what their life cycle will be.

But where ever he goes or does, I suspect he will use a computer 8 to 12 hours a day to do it.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[maestroX]

Anyone having issues related to the autistic spectrum will consume visual information (such as television, computer, or books) easier than hearing.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[ranton]

I've seen studies that have shown that they interfere with learning, but none (that weren't sponsored by someone trying to sell stuff) that showed they improved learning.

I'll help you since your workplace must be blocking Google. From what I was able to briefly find, the meta-analysis of current research shows three things:

1) Blended use of technology and traditional learning probably produces the best results.
2) We are still figuring out how to best use technology in the classroom, but we are improving.
3) There has not been nearly enough large scale research to "prove" any assertions about the effectiveness of individual techniques in bringing technology to the classroom.

Does the Use of Technology Improve Learning?
The Answer Lies in Design
Effective Use of Technology as a Learning Tool
Learning with Technology. Evidence that technology can, and does, support learning.
Evaluation of Evidence-Based Practices in Online Learning. A Meta-Analysis and Review of Online Learning Studies
Using Technology in Education: Does It Improve Anything?

And depending on your definition of "sponsored by someone trying to sell stuff", you are probably unlikely to find many studies at all like that (a fact brought up by a couple of the above studies). Since most school districts cannot afford to spend money on unproven technologies, a large percentage of these studies have their devices donated or heavily subsidized by the device manufacturer. Here are some iPad specific ones, but even though some of them may have had iPads donated they still back up their research with actual test scores.

Five Studies to Prove the iPad’s Educational Worth
iPad improves Kindergartners literacy scores
Study Finds Benefits in Use of iPad as an Educational Tool
iPads Improve Classroom Learning, Study Finds
iPad a Solid Education Tool, Study Reports

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's my feeling as well. While I had a notebook in uni I NEVER used it in lectures and took notes the old fashioned way by hand while other student would use a computer and/or also audio record the lectures. Audio recordings MAY have been a nice addition, however I'm sure that I never would've taken the time to listen to them again unless they some how magically became topically indexed.

Tablets: I've given up on tablets. They're utterly useless for any sort of complex/lengthy input(w/o an added/supported keyboard) and I find that I rarely use them for web browsing or even looking at complex formatted PDFs(probably because I'd still rather have a nice stack of well written paper manuals which is probably to say that modern manuals are so sh!t as to mostly not being worth the time bothering with rather than I'm stuck on paper per se). Adding a keyboard to an underpowered tablet(lets face it ARM isn't up to much lifting) is pretty pointless.

So, to that end I picked up a C720(i3/4GB variant so it had a chance to be useful as a linux notebook as well replaced SSD -> 128GB) and already find that I'm using that FAR more often than I ever used any of my tablets AND in ALL of the situations where I had initially thought that a tablet might be handy. I still plan to keep a tablet around but with purpose of relegating them to PDF reading and backup ereader replaced only when they die. The C720 is essentially only slightly larger than a 10" tablet although I must admit to giving pause reading about the rumors of a Lenovo i3 Yoga 11e(convertible to tablet mode) that might have been nice but decided to not wait as it would undoubtedly end up being so expensive that I might as well skip up to a low end 11" windows notebook w/hdd i5+ etc.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[Just Some Guy]

And don't forget the alternate risks of mugging you're subjecting children to by having them carry around a $600 thief-magnet

While I don't disagree with your general point, theft rates started dropping as soon as Apple added Activation Lock to iOS 7. There's not a lot of street value in a device that can't be used, and they're not the thief magnet they were even a year ago.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[Immerman]

What, did you never teach your kids how to treat books with respect? Sorry, that's all on YOU. Or do you have a really stupid school district that makes you buy books yourself rather than doing the sane thing and re-loan the same books to students year after year? It's not like the knowledge in 3rd-grade textbooks changes appreciably over the course of a decade or two.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[BasilBrush]

40 years ago the question was whether pocket calculators made learning any easier or better. 40 years before that they were debating whether pen and paper was any improvement on slates and chalk.

Middle aged people who aren't teachers think that the proper way of schooling is the way it happened when they themselves were at school. Which means 20-40 years out of date on whatever the new technology is.

Let's leave it to teachers to say what they think is best.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[mspohr]

Yes, you are an old fuddy-duddy.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[Richy_T]

Yeah, but then they will just be "stolen" instead when the kids ditch them out of embarrassment.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Kids, these days. We had to walk to school in driving snow, uphill both ways, with only a slate and chalk in hand.

Now get off my lawn.

You had chalk? Damn your parents must have been wealthy. My siblings and I had to milk a cow, convert the liquid to powder, compress the milk powder in a small wooden box using a hand-turned grip and then maybe we'd have a piece of "chalk" that lasted the day. But if the "chalk" broke the entire stick became powder on the floor or desk.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[BarbaraHudson]

What a strange comment.

What a strange reply ...

"a number of medium"

... and ...

Being good at IT and the written word is a huge advantage.

If you're writing about fortune tellers, the plural of medium is mediums. If you're writing about a channel of communications or expression, the plural is media. :-)

But really, 12 hours a day is 60 hours a week. 60 hours a week chained to a computer? Been there, done that, glad my daughters made more sensible choices (especially given how fungible IT workers are nowadays in the eyes and minds of the PHBs).

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Economics fail: analysis of probabilistic expenses need to factor in the probability of occurrence. Expected cost = (multi-thousand dollars in medical costs) * (near-zero odds of such an accident occurring) $600. And don't forget the alternate risks of mugging you're subjecting children to by having them carry around a $600 thief-magnet rather than some books nobody wants.

And your use case may sound good, but we all know what will usually happen is that most students will spend their time chatting online, playing video games, etc. and get less out of the experience than if they had no supplies at all. And what's wrong with carrying a paper and pencil and an applicable textbook? Much cheaper when inevitably lost or destroyed, and they'll even get a bit more exercise in the bargain, and lord only knows they probably need it.

There may be a niche for integrating computers computers into general education for normal children, but it would probably have to be a purpose-built machine: everything I've seen to date is worse than useless for the purpose.

My granddaughter got addicted to Facebook, twitter, Instagram, and tablet use. Its with her at meals, at bedtime and every school recess break.
The impact is so severe that she cannot fall asleep at night until she has completed her visits to the sites and responded.
A 13 year old was half asleep in the classroom, because of the "social contact" obsessiveness. Parents had to take possession of the tablet and cellphone, had to use the childproof management on the desktop, so as to break the obsession. Is my granddaughter alone with this kind of obsession. I think not.

Another observation, with that obsession came the inability of the 13 year old to concentrate and complete homework in one go. Private tutoring helped to fill in the class work from which she was tuned out. Was she that way before? Answer is No.

Fortunately, the schools require the kids to drop their phones into a basket at the door, and pick them up on the way out. Otherwise, public schools would be failing in trying to teach even the basics.

Re:Microsoft losing to the school what?

[Anonymous Coward]

I hope so, because that's how we vote in Michigan.

Nonsense

[cybrthng]

Microsoft licensing isn't really an issue, the OS is free on certain profiles such as small tablets and mobile devices and with everything hinted at with Windows 10 it appears that the OS will become further more affordable to consumers/end users. Schools also get incentive programs, discounts and free student/teacher licenses. If anything, Microsoft is embracing Android & iOS more these days so the biggest loser stands to be ChromeBooks in the end. Windows devices are price point competitive with ChromeBooks. Visual Studio being free, .Net going cross platform, Windows for "Free" on mobile/tablet platforms.. this all seems like nonsense.

Re:Nonsense

[Anonymous Coward]

Too little, too late - especially with such a crapfest OS that continues to use the biggest piece of shit interface since people wrote with dried manure.

Modern UI (metro) is the crappiest UI I have ever seen, I prefer command line over that steaming pile of excrement.

Re:Nonsense

[Anonymous Coward]

.Net going cross platform? Yawn. Don't expect everybody to rush to use an outdated architecture.

VS being free impresses VS fans and no one else.

"Price point" means nothing. People routinely and gladly pay more money for Apple products, because they work better.

What you're looking at is a business in panic mode. This isn't the sort of move that winners make.

Re:Nonsense

[Blaskowicz]

With a network of hundreds of tablets that need to be locked down, managed, protected against malware, needing to access content etc. you'd better want them to join a Windows domain. The free Windows version won't allow that.

I think the idea sucks anyway whatever the OS is. A tablet has less display estate than A4 paper and an open book. Bright screen stealing attention is especially worrying. Wifi is a nightmare, but a USB plug on each desk that gives wired ethernet access could remedy that.
Moving, overbright (with bad black levels) crap don't believe in a classroom. Give the kids something with a keyboard and a monochrome LCD.

Re:Nonsense

[mysidia]

the OS is free on certain profiles such as small tablets and mobile devices and with everything hinted at with Windows 10 it appears that the OS will become further more affordable to consumers/end users.

Everyone knows the real cost is the CALS. The endpoint OS may be free, but the management comes at a hefty price.

Re:Nonsense

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

Schools pay less than corporate customers; but (at least when I was doing IT for a school district) there was still a significant gap between 'less than corporate' and 'what our budget could absorb without pain'.

Yes, for certain consumer/BYOD scenarios, on rather crippled devices, MS has succumbed to the inevitable and cut prices to the bone. However, if you still want things like 'laptops with keyboards' or 'Active Directory for credentials handling and some semblance of management', it's a punch in the wallet. More so if you go for a full Office/Exchange setup, and if you need to go into System Center, or a third party equivalent (Altiris used to kick ass; but Symantec purchased it and has been ruining it lately) for imaging and more robust control than pure AD.

MS doesn't have the pricing power of Big Blue in the Days of Yore; but even with educational discounts it adds up uncomfortably fast.

Chromebooks are, admittedly, rather limited; but chromeOS + Apps for Education can do credentials, a fair amount of configuration, and get students typing away impressively quickly and cheaply compared to the alternatives. There are things you simply can't do, full stop; but within their scope those things are damned efficient.

iPads are slick, and have all the 'apps' and iBook-only textbooks and similar stuff; but management might as well have been designed to remind you that Apple hates enterprise and institutional customers. They aren't as bad as they used to be; but even with a full MDM setup, it's a massive pain in the ass(Though, while chromeOS is absurdly better, Android is even worse).

Actual OSX devices are much better behaved, as are Windows systems with enough licenses in place for a full AD setup; but the hardware is either more expensive or less portable and doesn't offer the exciting finger-painting action that users crave for some stupid reason.

Re:Nonsense

[Noah Haders]

what is A4? what is monochrome? what is USB wired ethernet? Your concepts are strange to me.

Re:Nonsense

[funwithBSD]

Based on what I am seeing at work, a good bit of this IBM/Apple unholy alliance is centered around IBM management tools and OSX devices.

We shall see if it flys...

Re:Nonsense

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

iOLotusNotes is going to land right in Gartner's magic quadrant, that's for sure...

Re: Nonsense

[kenh]

School under Education License agreements pay about $34/year per desktop for the current OS, current edition of Office, and CALs to access Exchange & SQL Server (both also current edition)... And all that goes with it (Active Directory). The only 'gotcha' is that the computers need to have some form of current Windows OS (as low as Win 7 Starter if buying new hardware).

Re:Nonsense

[perpenso]

Chromebooks ... There are things you simply can't do, full stop

As a school oriented laptop that is probably a plus. Email, browser, google docs, ... plus the education focused classroom stuff ... that sounds highly capable. Being "locked down" doesn't seem like a negative here, probably solves more problems than it creates.

Re:Nonsense

[TheReaperD]

Having worked for a school district, I can tell you that licensing was a major issue but, not for the reasons that most people think. It has nothing to do with cost even though the licenses were pricy. The problem was the technical solutions that Microsoft instituted to try and enforce their licensing that was the issue. We either had to do limited activation licences that were use and loose which is a major problem when you're doing network imaging as you burn through the licences like they're tissue paper or you had to run clunky and unreliable "activation servers" with severe technical limitations and were even more problematic with people with laptops. In the end, we had to do a hybrid solution on both methods to try and keep our copies of Windows and Office activated and even then it wasn't 100% effective. We were looking for ANY alternative to this nightmare that we could make work; even if it wasn't ideal.

Re:Nonsense

[ColdWetDog]

A marriage of Hypercard and Lotus Notes?

Re:Nonsense

[dgatwood]

USB-wired Ethernet means reverse tethering. Unfortunately, it really isn't practical on a classroom scale, because of the distances involved, not to mention that general-purpose computers aren't really all that great at handling high-speed network routing for thirty or forty machines to begin with, and USB's excessive CPU overhead just piles on top of that.

It would be cheaper and more reliable to install a dedicated Wi-Fi hot spot in every classroom with a fairly directional antenna on the ceiling, and set the maximum transmit power really low so each classroom acts like its own microcell that is roughly limited to the bounds of the room. Chances are, a single shared Wi-Fi connection is plenty fast enough for a single classroom, and in my experience, as long as you aren't doing tethering, Wi-FI works very well on iOS (the recent WPA2 Enterprise networking authentication changes in iOS 8 notwithstanding). It's only a nightmare on Windows, which is probably one of the reasons that Microsoft is getting stomped into the ground in school markets.... But I digress.

BTW, does anybody else find it odd for an article to say that MS is losing the market? Normally "-ing" verbs imply that something is happening right now. I was under the impression that they had pretty much lost the K-12 market to iPads years ago.

Re:Nonsense

[innerweb]

I remember using Hypercard to help with some classes in grade school in the late 80 and early 90s. It was magic. The students (4th and 5th grade) used it with something called Jasper. It was amazing how much faster the entire class (even the typically slower children) grasped not only the lessons, but the new tools. They excelled more with that tool set than other tool set I had ever seen. The children developed their presentations using the Hypercard stacks and then presented them to the entire grade level. They were almost all completely engaged and focused without the teachers having to keep on them. This worked throughout the years it was used, and unlike every other medium used, the students with very few exceptions never strayed from the subjects when done with Hypecard. It was more popular for most of the students than recess was!

Unfortunately we were given a new IT director in the mid 90s (who is still in the same position) who decided that IBM and MS were the only way to go and that nothing outside of MS was worth anything. So, the Jasper program and the Hypercard application were canned. Nothing else ever came close to that success. We still have the same person in charge, and our IT in the system is based on MS and barely functional outside of administrative use (depending on who you ask, not even performing that well with the administrative tasks).

My youngest child is passing through high school, and I get to hear about the problems they have on a daily basis from the current teachers and administrators. The only school not having any problems is a magnet school that is currently outside of the current IT dept and uses linux and is now including android devices. They do their work in Open Office and create their presentations in HTML. They are group and project focused. The kids coming out of that school routinely wind up getting good academic scholarships and good jobs after college. Now, I am certain you can not blame all of that on software, but given the issues of compatibility of different versions of MS products, many students not being able to afford the MS products (or PCs), I am also certain that the software choices are a central part of the issue.

Re:Nonsense

[Blaskowicz]

I am thinking of a semi-hidden USB networking card, quite simply! if we can have the USB device (NIC) feeding the host power.
You then merely need to run CAT5 to each and every desk and it all goes to a switch (that has 1Gb/s uplink to the school network). Use Power over Ethernet and 100Mb/s, micro-switches to reduce the cabling.
It's perhaps a mess : bury cables in the floor, use a raised floor, cables descending from ceiling, floor cable protectors as seen on the ground in concerts? But it would seem to be the reliable solution and powering/charging the devices is nice to have.

One Wifi router per classroom is perhaps nice (with 5GHz so the teacher can at least get bandwith)
It would suck big times if a couple idiots show up, install them all, let them set at max power outputs then leave the school never to be seen again. (now hope the login is "admin/password")

Re:Nonsense

[narcc]

Too little, too late - especially with such a crapfest OS that continues to use the biggest piece of shit interface since people wrote with dried manure.

Look, I'm no fan of Android, but it's not THAT bad.

Re:Nonsense

[brantondaveperson]

Wifi is a nightmare

How so? Seems to work fine at my Kids primary school and intermediate school.

Re: Nonsense

[David Jao]

I'll go one further. The real cost is not licensing, and it is not CALs. Everyone knows the real cost is LIABILITY. Horror stories abound of BSA licensing audits gone amok. Funny how Microsoft's Total Cost of Ownership studies always ignore the cost of license compliance, and always ignore the risk of multi-million dollar BSA penalties for even the most minor infractions.

I avoid all non-free software from BSA member organizations. If the BSA comes knocking, they get the door slammed on them until they come back with a court-issued warrant.

Re:Nonsense

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, as someone involved in the educational software market let me just give you a heads up that you have no idea what you're talking about.

And BTW Microsoft licensing is easily the biggest issue in educational markets. They give "deals" to schools but then they make the school buy these blanket licenses for all sorts of stuff they don't need. Also, I know of schools that were running donated copies of Windows and Office on donated hardware and MS straigtht up sued the shit out of them through the BSA. Don't even get me started on their server software.

Posting AC because just mentioning schools getting sued by the BSA violates the gag-order they imposed and I don't want to get anyone in trouble.

Re:Nonsense

[binarylarry]

he was obviously talking about Windows 8 and Metro.

Re:Nonsense

[ray-auch]

Problem is they aren't laptops, they are locked down limited devices like tablets, but without the portability (and camera etc.) benefits of a tablet - worst of all worlds really. Ok, so you get a sort-of proper keyboard, but you could add a keyboard (bluetooth or docked) to a tablet and get the same without losing the portability of the tablet to, say, get instant video feedback on your technique in athletics.

Re:Nonsense

[salesgeek]

The assumption that you need to lock down student's devices is the root of all of your issues.

Re:Nonsense

[nukenerd]

Microsoft licensing isn't really an issue

It must be the crap software itself that is the deciding factor then.

Re:Nonsense

[MachineShedFred]

I could see people switching away from Java to .NET / C#, specifically because Oracle is being such shitheads regarding Java.

I know of a multi-billion dollar pharmacy business that is running on a Java 6 app, and will take a rewrite to get off of it. Oracle wants to charge over $1M/year for patches they are already writing anyway, because they decided on a whim to kill public support for the platform after creating an incompatible Java 7.

Why rewrite for a new version of Java where you will ultimately end up with the same shithead money-grubbing tactics, when you could rewrite in C# (which has much better functionality than Java now anyway), with the frameworks now open and cross-platform?

Re:Nonsense

[MachineShedFred]

WiFi is a nightmare if you buy residential / SoHo gear and expect it to do the job of gear meant for radio-dense environments that you see in education or enterprise.

Get a real WiFi network, and it's not nearly the problem most people make it out to be.

Re:Nonsense

[Anonymous Coward]

yep, we just abandoned Microsoft over the licensing.

We *know* we have the licenses, but somehow we found the Windows licensing (especially in 8) to be so flaky it isn't worth the hassle.

It's been going downhill since Windows 2000 (which was the last version to 'just work') and as things stand we feel we're having to jump through hoops just to keep things working.

The day Microsoft starts trusting it's customers again, rather than assuming us to be criminals is the day we might consider returning, but by then we'll almost certainly be so heavily invested in other platforms we'll have no desire to return unless pushed from there too. The transition was a lot less painful than supporting Windows and it's nightmare licensing / activation system had become.

Re:Nonsense

[sandytaru]

This is a good point. Microsoft also offers a lot of its nicer software for free to students. Back when I was finishing my master's degree, I had access to everything except the core Office 2013 products (Word, Excel, etc.) I got Project, Access, Visio, Visual Studio, and a free copy of Windows 8.

Re:Nonsense

[flappinbooger]

schools around here either go with chromebook, macbook or ipad. No-one is going Microsoft.

Re:Nonsense

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

It cuts both ways: being particularly tepid gaming systems is a plus; but education is rotten with absolutely horrible pack-in software from textbooks and the like. Much of it is bullshit, and not even worth peeling off the shrinkwrap; but if 'Pearson Shovelware 2013' is the Solution For Aligning With Common Core Standards And Driving Success in the Differentiated Instruction Classroom, well, IT just has to make Pearson Shovelware 2013 work. That's where it is less helpful(and why replacing staff/admin systems with chromebooks is a near-total impossibility).

I tend to subscribe to the (arguably curmudgeonly) position that, outside of CS, CAD, and other specifically-involves-computers subjects, there's no use for computers in education except for making reading, writing, and record keeping easier, and the rest is mostly fluff, so I'm not as concerned about the limitations.

People who think that engaging rich-media-experiences-something-multiple-learning styles are the hottest new thing tend to be attracted to iDevices; because those get all the app attention; but for basic typing-and-internet-boxes, ChromeOS is crazy cheap and easier to administer than Windows(though AD is powerful).

Re:Nonsense

[flappinbooger]

draconian licensing is an issue no matter what company is doing it.

Microsoft, Autodesk, Sony and Allen Bradley are the ones I deal with personally. They all assume their customers are criminals, based on the licensing schemes.

To be fair though the Autodesk licensing isn't so bad once you get it working.

Siemens software licensing seems to be pretty fair and easy to live with.

Re:Nonsense

[Anonymous Coward]

Problem is they aren't laptops, they are locked down limited devices like tablets, but without the portability (and camera etc.) benefits of a tablet - worst of all worlds really. Ok, so you get a sort-of proper keyboard, but you could add a keyboard (bluetooth or docked) to a tablet and get the same without losing the portability of the tablet to, say, get instant video feedback on your technique in athletics.

Does a first or second grader need that? A fifth grader? Do they really need that kind portability? Give the coach a iPad if you need instant feedback on athletic technique. Using GoogleDoc (as much as I hate having someone else host my data) is ideal for kids. If they break or lose a chromebook they haven't lost their data. Unlike iPads, if they break or lose their chromebook they're not out $600.

ChromeBooks fill the cheap niche with decent functionality.

Re:Nonsense

[trazom28]

The cost to run cable in the floor of the classrooms that are already built would far outweigh the benefit gained from wired, and you'd never get that cost passed by a school board or the community. There would also be the additional expense of PoE switches (about $6K+ a piece if you go Cisco, about half that if you don't), and a mess of patch cables (financially and physically). Nice idea on paper, but honestly wouldn't be practical in a classroom environment. WiFi AP per classroom is where it's headed - and you don't need to power it down. If setup correctly, each AP knows the APs around it, and will work together to provide bandwidth where needed (in range). Disclaimer: I work in a K-12

Re:Nonsense

[4pins]

Java has been open source for some time.

People still have trouble with the owner monetizing it.

.NET has just now been open sourced.

People should jump from Java to C#, because now the .NET owner can't apply "money-grubbing tactics."

I am confused, did I miss something?

Re: Nonsense

[mysidia]

School under Education License agreements pay about $34/year per desktop for the current OS

$34 is not a lot, but for 3000 desktops, it is still not zero. If you can use a cloud based MDM solution or open source based management tools, then your $100,000 CAL budget becomes a $5,000 annual cloud or on-premise MDM server license.

Re:Nonsense

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple ID for Education. It solves almost all of the system management issues with iPads. My son's school uses iPads and Apple ID's for education to manage what they install. Very easy.

The platform is small, portable and personal. The students own the iPads and can add their own apps if they want, but in school its school apps only. The network is monitored and the kids are well supervised. (Its a private school.) They use Schoology for online learning management, tests, assignment turnins,, scheduling, etc. It is so far beyond what we had in school when I was a kid 25 ish years ago, its astounding.

My 6th grade son is wire framing apps, building robots, learning 2nd languages, doing dramatic production, doing advanced math, and learning at a rate far higher than I did - and I was a 99th percentile student in school.

The tools, in this case the iPad have helped the kids tremendously. No longer are kids confined to a book as a source of knowledge, they can now leverage apps and the entire internet knowledge base to learn from, in real time. A revolution is happening and people are fighting it because they somehow think paper is better because that's how we've always done it.

Re:Nonsense

[perpenso]

I've used chrome books, dell laptops, mac books and iPads with external keyboards. The iPads are the least portable for typing. You need a decent desk/table for the iPad. Again, for typing not tapping. The more traditional laptop format is easier to balance and orient the screen if you want to just sit down on the grass somewhere and type. Plus when the lid closes the screen is protected, the iPad has to go into a sleeve of some sort for protection.

Re:Nonsense

[perpenso]

If ChromeBooks become popular in schools then 'Pearson Shovelware 2013' becomes a web app: 'Pearson Shovelware 2015 Cloud Edition'.

Re:Nonsense

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

Some already have(and, in case you haven't already guessed, 'well, just send us a .csv!' counts as better-than-average credentials handling and account creation, LDAP may be older thang god but it apparently isn't 'web' enough); but some publishers are...uncomfortably retro. It isn't every day that "Requires Quicktime" means "Go forth and find the last 16-bit Quicktime release and make it work on a modern OS" but they manage.

Re:Nonsense

[Anonymous Coward]

WOOSH!!!!
 
Are you that stupid in real life or do you just act like it on Slashdot?

Re:Nonsense

[ray-auch]

For me, for _typing_, anything less than a good solid desk and a proper keyboard with springs in (i.e. Model M or similar) is already inadequate, the chromebook keyboards I have seen look awful, and probably are given that the whole machine is less than twice the price of a proper keyboard (and probably about the same weight). Yes, the clamshell format is better for typing than a tablet, but both are a lot worse than a desktop. Tablets can also use fancy predictive or modal keyboards (swype et al) to swing the balance back.

Let's also not forget that these are kids, they have not grown up with real keyboards and then switched to touchscreen, they have grown up with touchscreens, they live by their overwhelmingly touchscreen phones, what is more comfortable and efficient for us old ones may not be for them.

> Plus when the lid closes the screen is protected, the iPad has to go into a sleeve of some sort for protection.

The kids' school iPads never come out of the (allegedly mil-spec) protective case, and I'd be a lot happier dropping one than any kind of laptop, closed or open.

Cut to the chase...

[vettemph]

This is what should happen everywhere...

http://www.linux.com/news/feat...

Re:Cut to the chase...

[hodet]

I fully agree with this. The part I liked about this article is that they encourage students to install software, run webservers etc etc. You simply cannot do that in a Windows environment. As for IPads, I shake my head. Yes they are useful for some special needs kids, no argument there, but for teaching about computers and sparking their interest and creativity a Linux laptop or Raspberry Pi's in a lab would make for a far more vibrant learning environment.

Re:Cut to the chase...

[Alrescha]

"This is what should happen everywhere..."

Occasionally, we must peek out of the box we live in and realize that not everyone lives the same life that we do.

To most people on the planet, if told they should know how to install and configuration operating systems, web servers, et al, would look at you as if you told them they needed to know how to build a car. They would think you were nuts. And they'd be right.

Another reply to your post mentioned that tablets are no way to teach about computers. "Hello, Reality calling..." - that's not what they are trying to teach. There *are* other subjects.

Computers are tools. In the same way that it is good that someone knows how to build a hammer, it is good that some people know how to make a computer work. But there is so much more that one can build with a hammer than just more hammers.

A.

What do you think Windows 8.1 with Bing is for?

[0xdeaddead]

and all those ~$100 tablets. If Microsoft didn't lower the cost of Windows to zero those would all be Android tablets.

Re:What do you think Windows 8.1 with Bing is for?

[Anonymous Coward]

What do you think Windows 8.1 with Bing is for?

To finish what Windows Vista started, kill off Microsoft for good.

losing their shit?

[Anonymous Coward]

Started reading title as "Microsoft Losing Their Shit..."

I haven't slept in 30 hours.

Translation

[Anonymous Coward]

No one wants a surface, unless it's to use as a stand for an iPad.

Re:Translation

[Anonymous Coward]

iPads are good for certain things such as holding papers down and propping up a table that has one leg shorter than the others.

Re:Translation

[Noah Haders]

No one wants a surface, unless it's to use as a stand for an iPad.

AC is making a reference to recent CNN coverage of the US elections. MS paid the network to have all their anchors visibly use surface tablets. But some of the anchors were busted for having ipads propped up behind the surface. Link, bitch.

Re:Translation

[flappinbooger]

No one wants a surface, unless it's to use as a stand for an iPad.

And internet explorer is the #1 browser in the world used to download another browser.

Compromise combos don't work

[EmperorOfCanada]

Years ago there were two motorcycles that showed up at my local Honda motorcycle dealer. One was the Pacific Coast and I forget the name of the other. The PC was a combination of a racing bike and a touring bike like a goldwing; while the other was a combination of a racing bike and a Harley Davidson. I really wanted a PC as it actually met my unusual needs at the time really nicely but couldn't afford it. But around 3 years went by and the dealership hadn't sold a single one. So they discounted them heavily and sold a few. The rest just sat for around 2 more years and then Honda kicked in for them to do a massive discount. I missed out on the deal but the end result was that they sold the PC for a really good price but basically gave away the other one. My brother managed to buy one for around $1600 when the original price was around $5,000.

Basically while both bikes were perfectly good people either wanted a touring bike or a sport bike; and in the second case wanted a sport bike or a Harley like bike.

Over the years I have seen similar products arrive with much hype but then sort of wither away and die. Go to any hardware store and someone has combined an Axe and something else. Or a screwdriver with a flashlight. Yet go back a year later and these sorts of products are gone only to be replaced with another bunch of doomed combo products. Once in a blue moon something like the Swiss army knife comes along that does combine things well but again it doesn't really replace a good kitchen knife, good scissors, or a good screwdriver it thrives on its portability and the fact that you get so many tools for a fairly low price.

Then there all kinds of similar failures like the El Camino. Basically it won the hearts of movie Latino gangsters and that is about it. Or all those promotional office supplies that try to shoehorn a calculator in. Binders, pens, etc. I don't think I ever did a single calculation on a promotional calculator integrated into some office supply. And sometimes there are those products that won't die. All in one printers. For most people those things just suck. Their drivers ruin machines, none of the features are that good and most people just end up using them as printers. Or TV DVD/VCR players... junk.

The surface is a perfect example of one of these compromise combos. It is a laptop, that is a tablet, that runs windows, that costs a pile of money. When I use my tablet I use it for tablet stuff like playing simple games, surfing the web for specific information, watching videos, but not for programming, writing books, or anything that it would do terribly. But my laptop literally has no games and I don't even watch many videos on it, it is purely for work when I am on the go.

Last Christmas I tried to buy a Chromebook for my mother in law because she needs a lightweight (powerwise) laptop that she can't screw up. She primarily needs it for email. There were a bunch around $250 which would have been perfect had they not been all out of stock. So basically I was viewing the chromebook as a really cheap underpowered laptop; but still a laptop.

So when looking at the surface I just don't see where it fits into a need that customers have. If they need a laptop there are plenty of laptops that are far cheaper than the surface that are only a little bigger. If they want a tablet there are far better tablets for far less money. If they need a powerful laptop then again there are far better laptops for far less money. In fact a good laptop and a good tablet will cost less than a surface.

But then there is a whole other reality. Most people don't really need a laptop or desktop any more. I suspect that this does not apply to most slashdotters but out in the wild most people create very little content and barely need a keyboard; hence the huge demand for large tablet like phones as these are often people's primary interface to the internet. But if they do need to type a bit more than the average bear then they can get an older used laptop or a chr

Re:Compromise combos don't work

[Anonymous Coward]

The surface works in thin niche between "I need the power of a low/mid-end laptop with the input options of a desktop" , so if you're doing art, yes the surface is perfect. Well... the Surface 2 was perfect. The surface 3 is trash because they replaced the functional Wacom digitizer with the extremely weak Ntrig digitizer. The end result is a tablet that is unsuitable for any use.

The iPad replaces text-books. That is what it's for. Anything it can do on top of that is a bonus.

Re:Compromise combos don't work

[koan]

I fell asleep reading this...

Re: Compromise combos don't work

[kenh]

"In fact a good laptop and a good tablet will cost less than a surface."

A Surface 2 (running Windows RT) costs $449 - I question the quality of a 'good' laptop and 'good' tablet you can get for less than $449...

A Surface Pro 3 starts at $749 - list price, less in qty. - that gets you close to 'good' laptops and tablets.

Re:Compromise combos don't work

[thegarbz]

The surface is a perfect example of one of these compromise combos. It is a laptop, that is a tablet, that runs windows, that costs a pile of money. When I use my tablet I use it for tablet stuff like playing simple games, surfing the web for specific information, watching videos, but not for programming, writing books, or anything that it would do terribly. But my laptop literally has no games and I don't even watch many videos on it, it is purely for work when I am on the go.

And you've just described the perfect education device. A device suitable for single handed consumption which can effortlessly be converted into a full fledged content creation system in a flip of a keyboard. Mind you I still struggle to see how the Surface Pro 3 is a compromise. It well outdoes most full laptops, but I guess you're generally speaking out of hate for the form factor rather than putting critical thought into what applications such a device may be used.

My own story. I haven't touched my Android tablet since I got a Surface. I also never did that laptop upgrade I was planning. I seem to have a need for neither.

Another anecdote is the school where my wife teaches are about to dump iPads in favour of a convertible laptop (Not decided on a Surface or a Transformer or which specific device, but it will run Windows and it will be a full laptop / tablet convertible), and the private school across the road already did last year and went with Asus Transformers.

The iPad is a shit device for learning.

Re:Compromise combos don't work

[Hognoxious]

You are Bennet Haselton AICMFP.

Re: Compromise combos don't work

[David Jao]

The only problem is that Windows RT is doomed. Windows is far too dependent on x86 compatibility. If it can't run existing legacy Windows programs, then for most people there's no point. Without backward compatibility, you'll have to switch over to completely new software anyway, and by that point for the vast majority of people an iPad is a more attractive proposition.

Re:Compromise combos don't work

[David Jao]

The Surface Pro 3 requires compromising on price. It's much more expensive than any of the alternatives under discussion, especially if you want basic functionality such as a keyboard.

Re:Compromise combos don't work

[thegarbz]

Which isn't an issue for schools thanks in part to educational discounts. That's also why the Surface Pro 3 is a serious contender. Not to mention that only a few years ago students at many private schools were already being forced to use such tablets which at the time cost closer to double what the Surface Pro 3 does now.

You have to remember, price is no issue when someone else (parents and tax payers) are footing the bill.

Re:Compromise combos don't work

[thegarbz]

That and in Australia we don't need a $100k school shooting detection system.

Re:Compromise combos don't work

[serviscope_minor]

The surface is a perfect example of one of these compromise combos. It is a laptop, that is a tablet, that runs windows, that costs a pile of money.

Once you get the keyboard cover for the Surface Pro, it looks and behaves much like a regular laptop. It's similar weight and spec to a similarly priced MacBook Air, or in fact any of the 11 inch ultrabooks.

There's some variation, some have touch screens, some have more USB and other ports. One has a proper stylus pen.

If they need a laptop there are plenty of laptops that are far cheaper than the surface that are only a little bigger.

Sure, but I disagree. The MacBook Air is pretty much bang on the same specs for the same price. There's an entire category of similar machines (Ultrabooks) where people are apparently prepared to pay a premium for a reasonably fast machine with a low weight.

Most people don't really need a laptop or desktop any more.

Dunno about most. If I catch a medium or long distance train in the middle of the day, it seems full of suit-and-tie types hammering away on a keyboard, and usually scowling at the word document or powerpoint deck they're working on.

I think a lot of buiness users still input large amounts of text, and the business market is quite a huge one.

Anyway in conclusion, I think the lightweight, fast laptop market is reasonably big. Especially if you're a professional, that's not a large expense to make travelling much more pleasant. Personally I think the surface Pro fits very neatly into that category and I'm considering getting one[*].

However, they might well screw up the marketing, and pitch it into a niche that no one wants. Like the pen is a weird thing to me. They keep on pushing the pen based note stuff since well before the iPad and as far as I can tell no one really cares.

[*]Seems they run Linux quite well. With a bleeding edge kernel, the keybord even works! Most things seem to work (wifi, bluetooth, the keyboard and mouse). The pen partially works, but it's not clear if the pressure sensitivity works and I'd rather like that, ot make the GIMP more fun and powerful, but not having it is not a dealbreaker.

I can't remember about the touchscreen. I think I read that it does, but I don't really care.

Re: Compromise combos don't work

[ray-auch]

It is doomed, but that is not why. If MS chose to unlock it, you could rebuild native x86 apps for RT no problem - that's how they did Office. But MS didn't want to allow that, they wanted a go at the 30% of everything sold in the app store model - the fact that that failed is IMO good.

The real reason RT is doomed though is that it was built to give Intel a kick to get better performing low power x86 chips out (or alternatively to hedge their bets on mobile hardware platform). Since Bay Trail atoms came out there is just no reason to run Windows on an ARM tablet, and hence no need for the arbitrarily crippled RT.

They are going to take the ARM port and produce ARM server Windows I believe, which might actually make more sense (more limited set of software than desktops, more of it custom and hence rebuildable, and admins who won't be as confused as desktop users about requiring ARM or x86 binary). Again, it will be to hedge their platform best but also maybe to push Intel to more efficiency in server chips.

Re:Compromise combos don't work

[AmiMoJo]

Surface is actually pretty good as both a tablet and a laptop. It would suit a school or work environment where people move about a lot well, and integrates with all Microsoft's enterprise management stuff nicely. The only thing hold it back is the cost. It it was $200 they wouldn't be able to make them fast enough.

Re:Compromise combos don't work

[ray-auch]

Another anecdote is the school where my wife teaches are about to dump iPads in favour of a convertible laptop (Not decided on a Surface or a Transformer or which specific device, but it will run Windows and it will be a full laptop / tablet convertible), and the private school across the road already did last year and went with Asus Transformers.

The iPad is a shit device for learning.

The ASUS transformers are awesome little beasts, but they don't have the camera capability which seems to be a major use case for tablets at my kids' school. I'd also question if the surface "cover" or even the transformer are rugged enough for schoolkids on their own, and getting ruggedized cases that accommodate the convertible feature may be tricky. Tablets are relatively easy to ruggedize.

Re:Compromise combos don't work

[David Jao]

I don't know what you're talking about but in the USA many public school districts are strapped for cash and the educational discount does not quite go all the way in making the Surface Pro price-competitive with Chromebooks (how can it?).

Re: Compromise combos don't work

[David Jao]

I think you vastly overestimate how many x86 apps can be rebuilt. Even Intel itself has to go to absurd lengths to engineer bug-for-bug binary compatibility into successive generations of x86 chips, precisely because it's so hard to get the industry to recompile. People always complain about Linux because it lacks Photoshop ... well, where is Photoshop for ARM? You speak of servers; where is Oracle's database software for ARM?

It's also not clear if Intel can succeed in making x86 chips save power. At least they're really trying now, which is more than they were doing before. But all that x86 instruction set baggage really bites them. It's something they can ignore in the server arena, but low-power is a different beast. Now I'm not saying they can't do it; Intel has great people and they do great things when they really try. But it will be hard.

Re:Compromise combos don't work

[Anonymous Coward]

How do you protect yourself from dingos and angry wombats?

Re: Compromise combos don't work

[Anonymous Coward]

Except that a Surface 2 RT is possibly the absolute worst and by far the most useless device you could own. Nice try Mr Shill!

Re: Compromise combos don't work

[flappinbooger]

"In fact a good laptop and a good tablet will cost less than a surface."

A Surface 2 (running Windows RT) costs $449 - I question the quality of a 'good' laptop and 'good' tablet you can get for less than $449...

A Surface Pro 3 starts at $749 - list price, less in qty. - that gets you close to 'good' laptops and tablets.

he wasn't referring to windows RT surface.

Re:Compromise combos don't work

[EmperorOfCanada]

I think this is the best reply to my comment. Cost is a huge mark against the surface. Some of the comments are comparing the surface price to that of a macbook air, which would be in the top 5 most desired laptops and one of the more expensive common laptops. This is critical when it appears that its competitor is the chromebook which is generally desirable because it is good enough and cheap as dirt.

Other people talk about this huge imaginary market for powerful laptops when laptop sales are sliding. My point is that most people want to get email, surf the web, and watch videos. Then other comments blah blah about schools and how iPads suck. But schools are a perfect example of content creation which is where tablets suck. But again a chromebook is again good enough.

I would be willing to guess that if you intercepted everyone who was about to buy a laptop that a careful examination of their needs would suggest a chromebook as being sufficient.

Personally I would be willing to guess that the #1 reason that most laptops are rationally purchased is that there is a single application that the person needs that no tablet, chromebook etc can handle. The #2 reason would be gaming. A distant third would be that people actually need the overall power of the machine.

Re:Compromise combos don't work

[Anonymous Coward]

Then there all kinds of similar failures like the El Camino. Basically it won the hearts of movie Latino gangsters and that is about it.

In fact the El Camino was killed by the federal Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) law, not buyer preferences:

Automakers embraced the truck boom with relish. Since trucks didn’t have to meet the same safety, emissions, or fuel economy requirements as cars, they did not need to be nearly as mechanically sophisticated. The large production volume lowered manufacturing costs, and adding luxury features enabled posh trucks to be sold for premium prices, making them highly profitable. The profit margins became so enticing that other manufacturers got into the game. Automakers began to shortchange their passenger-car development to invest more in trucks.

And it is a poor fit to your argument about combination products; The El Camino is no more of a combination vehicle than is a light-duty pickup truck. It is lower to the ground than a pickup and therefore offers better road handling with a lower center-of-gravity, with the trade-off of poorer off-road performance because of the lower ground clearance. But most pickup truck drivers never seem to take there pickups off-road anyway, so it does not seem that the reduced ground clearance would constitute a design compromise for the majority of customers.

Re: Compromise combos don't work

[Just Some Guy]

A Surface Pro 3 starts at $749 - list price, less in qty. - that gets you close to 'good' laptops and tablets.

RT Surfaces go up against cheap Android tablets, not iPads or good high-end Androids. $449 is way more expensive than the competition.

At $749, you get a bottom-end CPU and no keyboard, so you're not competing against laptops at all. It's also $150 more than an iPad Air 2 with the same amount of storage (although the iPad will have more available space after subtracting the OS install), so you're paying more for a tablet with less available tablet-centric software.

OP was right: Surface is a hybrid that does neither thing well.

Re:Compromise combos don't work

[Anonymous Coward]

Desktops are great for games by virtue that their GPUs can be upgrades

I've owned a couple of laptops and they're only good for portability really (unless you go really high end). A low- or mid-range desktop will trash most laptops in terms of performance. There's no reason to get one as a home computer. They're good for traveling, that's about it.

Tablets can be useful for one of two reasons: either your home doesn't have enough space for another desktop or you want a cheap media device/internet browser. In the latter case, some families can't afford a full desktop for their child, so that tablet allows them to do stuff. It also works well if the desktop is out of commission or tied up rendering video or something. Some have HDMI-out so they can be connected to HDTVs. Android has the low-end locked up tight. Microsoft will have a hard time breaking that.

Re: Compromise combos don't work

[Anonymous Coward]

> A Surface 2 (running Windows RT) costs $449
> A Surface Pro 3 starts at $749

Neither of which include the keyboard so at these prices are not equivalent to a laptop and tablet.

Re: Compromise combos don't work

[Anonymous Coward]

> They are going to take the ARM port and produce ARM server Windows I believe, which might actually make more sense (more limited set of software than desktops,

I do not know why you think that servers run a "more limited set of software than desktops". In fact many servers, eg 'terminal server', run full desktops to thin clients.

While a cheaper ARM Windows tablet running a limited version of Office plus phone-like apps may make some sort of limited sense, an ARM Windows server would need to run _full_ IIS plus MS-SQL plus AD plus many other. The attraction of ARM on the server is power savings and this is done by having dozens of CPUs that can be shut down when processing is not required but can be fired up for intermittant heavy loads. I doubt that MS server software scales to utilize dozens of CPUs and no-one would want to pay the core-based licensing charges.

Huzzah

[mrflash818]

This news is pleasing. I hope it is the start of many more such reports.

Who is ubmfuturecities?

[codepigeon]

I have never heard of this website before. I read the story and didn't see any links to data to support the authors observations about usage rates; just some anecdotal comments.

Having said that, my son's school uses Chromebooks to replace all text books and paper homework/assignments. I have to say I am very impressed. I like that all homework and assignments are available to the teacher at any time and the teacher can intervene if they detect the student is falling behind or doing poorly. I have some worries about Google probably mining and cataloging his work though.

I don't see the usefulness of an iPad in a classroom unless it comes with a keyboard and the infrastructure to support them (no clue about what apple provides for "cloud" services for schools). My company issues iPads with a Logitech keyboard to managers. In this case it seems more like an excuse for them to check their mail while they are supposed to be paying attention to the meeting.

Re:Who is ubmfuturecities?

[Anonymous Coward]

UBM Future Cities is a sister site of Information Week. United Business Media is a large publishing/conference house with names such as EE Times, Information Week and Light Reading.

I believe this was mostly wrote as an opinion piece, not to support actual numbers. There have been many articles around showing that Chromebooks are winning schools.

Re:Who is ubmfuturecities?

[serviscope_minor]

I don't see the usefulness of an iPad in a classroom unless it comes with a keyboard

You say that but apparently kids are so used t otyping on phones that theyb don't appear to be bothered by the lack of a physical keyboard. I've even heard of kids typing entire essays on a phone when the iPad broke at the last minute.

Sure it might be completely suboptimal and generally awful but they seem to not care, or not know better. Also, probably too young to have started getting RSI from hammering a completely rigid surface instead of a keyboard with some give in it.

I think the touch typing mattres less because they keyboard is physically very close to the text. And the letter-box view of the document is just a question of not being used to better. Back in the day, I spent ages working on a 40x25 screen (teletxt!) and also 80x25. It was fine because it was what I was used to. These days it would feel dreadful. However if you'e neer been used to seeing more than 10 lines of whatever you're working on, it won't bother you.

Actually, I think iPads are a terrible idea in schools, since they're so inflexible all you can do is type boring documents, run banal education apps designed to make awful ways of being educated marginally less soul crushing or education management apps which are a futile attempt to make up for poor teachers by keeping even closer eyes on pupils (the inverted classroom thing is possible too, but that requires better teachers).

But despite that they seem fine for kids for writing stuff.

Re:Who is ubmfuturecities?

[BlackHawk-666]

"Back in the day, I spent ages working on a 40x25 screen (teletxt!) and also 80x25. It was fine because it was what I was used to. These days it would feel dreadful. However if you'e neer been used to seeing more than 10 lines of whatever you're working on, it won't bother you."

I grew up in the days of green phosphor (or if you were lucky, amber!) as well. Actually, initially I learnt on a 40 x 25 displayed on a black and white television set. I can remember the days of 80 x 25 CGA, then EGA and finally, VGA. If you were very lucky, you had a machine with a Hercules card in it, which made that 80 x 25 display look like it was made of refined gold, rather than sand :D

Text editors were pretty simple beasts back then, and the square display didn't feel like it helped a lot...but now, using VS 2013 with a screen cluttered with all sorts of sidebars and the like it feels even more cramped than the simple old 80 x 25 with just a menu bar at the top and a status bar on the bottom line. Twenty three lines of code on screen...I use a 24 inch monitor running 1080p nowadays and I still only get 40 lines of code on that screen. The monitor is literally 10 inches larger, vastly better resolution and I still only get 17 more lines of code.

I often wonder if I would be more productive using a stripped down editor again, with the monitor in portrait mode and a really solid text mode set.

My old editor, the workhorse I used for years was the one shipped with TopSpeed Modula 2 (and then TopSpeed c++). It was clean, used a standard keybind set which could be customised and was capable of having *four* documents open at once. You could flip between them with a couple of keybinds. I reckon, with a good modern editor and hardware, that it might not be too bad working like that again :D

Re:Who is ubmfuturecities?

[serviscope_minor]

Yeah, VS is an appaling screen hog. Makes a 2560x1440 monitor feel like 720p or worse.

I use vim, it's muc better in a variety of regards. I also like landscape. With a big landscape monitor, you can easily fit three columns of code side by side with plenty of space to spare. On my 1080p laptop, I get 80 lines comfortably.

Re:Who is ubmfuturecities?

[ray-auch]

Notepad++, full screen mode, portrait if you have it, or landscape with multiple tabs side by side.

free market

[globaljustin]

that's what happens when consumers are not locked into M$ products: they abandon them for better alternatives

M$ products are awful, and when they have to compete in the free market, they lose

how much of M$ profit is from US Federal and State level government contracts? that's your tax dollars

Re:free market

[koan]

Not only that but when I tried to implement Linux solutions at a local community college I was met with rage from the support sector "I don't want to learn Linux" to where's the support (it was there and it was cheap so no one could grasp it apparently) to "We have to teach the students what they will be using".

OMG the fucking stupidity of the college system...

Windows is still around because of their market saturation, Apple is fucking atrocious, Linux has promise but really it's fractionalized.

For the record, the community college went with a $40,000 dollar Windows program for their video/photo presentations instead of Gallery 2 for free....
Not one of the "doctorates" on the decision panel could grasp that "free" could be better than $40,000.. and yet it was, Gallery 2 at the time offered far more features and the devs agreed to support it for next to nothing.

Fucking morons.

Re:free market

[globaljustin]

Linux isn't a total solution for education/academia but it's definitely in the mix all over the place

at my last university, all the computer labs were iMacs that could boot into windows or the reverse...keyboard and mouse were standard on all...it really was just preference

it also depends on where you tried to implement Linux...for graphic design as much as i hate it they have to use Adobe CS which doesn't reliably run on Linux...obviously GIMP should be part of the cirriculum, but you can't go in there with janky Ubuntu ACS installs and expect them to say yes

Re:free market

[brantondaveperson]

"We have to teach the students what they will be using".

How is this stupid? Seems pretty sensible to me, Linux vs. Window notwithstanding.

Apple is fucking atrocious

In what way?

Re:free market

[nukenerd]

"We have to teach the students what they will be using".

How is this stupid? Seems pretty sensible to me, Linux vs. Window notwithstanding.

Because at best it is a self-fulfilling argument. If not at best, it is untrue, because in future people will be using Windows less and less.

Re:free market

[Anonymous Coward]

How is this stupid? Seems pretty sensible to me, Linux vs. Window notwithstanding.

Because a college's or university's primary goal should be about education, not about pleasing businesses. Somewhere down the line, we decided that education wasn't the goal anymore, and standards are dropping rapidly because of it.

Not surprising

[Hamsterdan]

My school had Apple ][ computers (don't remember if they were 2e or 2+), school manager had a 3.

Guess what I learned programming on? (that and my C64)

Re:Not surprising

[Noah Haders]

i give up what

Re:Not surprising

[Anonymous Coward]

i give up what

He learned on your mom.
By the time he was done he had made her interface GUI.

Re:Not surprising

[rwa2]

Ugh. Thanks for making me cry.

My kids have awful Dell netbooks running an absurdly locked-down Windows 7. It takes forever for them to do any of their work online, because they can only use the IE browser to run all these java and javascript -heavy sites (mostly because of the sidebar ads), like http://www.easybib.com/ . Editing their work in their haiku wiki is painful... particularly dealing with images which they're required to use 2-3 per assignment.

The worst part is that they've figured out that even though they can't launch cmd.exe or install real programming languages, they've found they can save and execute .bat files. So yes, they're learning to program .bat *cry*

Google could win Education

[Anonymous Coward]

But first they need to figure out 3 things:

1) Resolve the Android/Chromebook schizophrenia with a unified platform. It looks like they're going down a path where the Chromebook os distribution model will be used for the hardware while Android will supply the apps.
2) Licensing model that for app and content distribution viably for all levels of EDU. This is currently harder the bigger your org gets when you need to be able to use POs instead of credit cards and need multiple IDs/devices to be able to access the content
3) Hypervisor / broker that allows their platform to seamlessly remote/VDI onto Windows/OS X/Linux big iron for desktop environment as required. If they give this piece away, I think they eventually succeed in the other OS vendors entirely.

Re:Google could win Education

[BlackHawk-666]

"3) Hypervisor / broker that allows their platform to seamlessly remote/VDI onto Windows/OS X/Linux big iron for desktop environment as required. If they give this piece away, I think they eventually succeed in the other OS vendors entirely."

There's been an RDP client available for Linux for years that runs happily on Android and no doubt on the Chromebooks now. For accessing Linux boxes you can either forward X, or run a VNC client (a bit slow and clunky compared to RDP on Windows).

Without business support and OEMs they are dead

[Hamsterdan]

I guess OEMs are keeping them alive as big companies are switching to alternatives

Microsoft is embracing Android?

[lippydude]

"If anything, Microsoft is embracing Android & iOS more these days", cybrthng

Yea, that's why they are extorting patent licenses from Android hardware manufacturers and polluting the Internet with fake Android security FUD ..

OS Flaw Leaves Android Wide Open for App Hack Attacks, Richard Adhikari

Budget cuts

[rsilvergun]

mean there isn't near as much money in education as their used to be. Might not be enough to support Microsoft's desired profit margins. Besides, the kids are probably still using Office 365 anyway, so it's all good.

Lose? Did it have it?

[Anonymous Coward]

Or is this just more MS asserting that it owns a space 'because'?

Laugh

[koan]

iPads are a the preferred platform for schools deploying tablets as digital learning devices.

Having worked in their EDU department there's a reason for this, and it isn't because they are better.

Oh and for you Apple fanbois... fuck you.

Re:Laugh

[brantondaveperson]

Enlighten us. What is the reason?

Re:Laugh

[Anonymous Coward]

iPads are a the preferred platform for schools deploying tablets as digital learning devices.

Having worked in their EDU department there's a reason for this, and it isn't because they are better.

Enlighten us. What is the reason?

Promotion of homosexuality

Re:Laugh

[flappinbooger]

Enlighten us. What is the reason?

Steep apple discounts and grants make them nearly free? The districts can also charge the parents for them and double dip? Just guessing.

Re:Laugh

[brantondaveperson]

Citation needed on that one I'm afraid. First I've heard of it.

As a technology director for a K-12 district

[Pollux]

I'll weigh in on two different thoughts.

First thought: iPads vs. Chromebooks vs. Microsoft. At a recent technology director's conference, there's nothing but moaning & groaning about managing iPads. It's four year's running now, and Apple just does not get Enterprise management. No central management of Apple IDs, App management is terrible (Apple Configurator is lousy, buggy, and doesn't push apps, and 3rd party management tools keep breaking w/ every new version of iOS), the list keeps going on. And there's nothing but good things being said about Chromebooks. Affordable, simple, easy enterprise management, no more need for file servers...the only criticism is that they eat bandwidth. And Microsoft? Yesterday's news.

Second thought: regarding the criticisms about 1-1 and flooding schools with digital devices. I in much part agree that there's not a direct -need- for student digital devices. But digital devices do enhance learning by providing greater opportunities to communicate, manage classroom content digitally and make it accessible outside school, create video lessons and "flip" the classroom, and provide formative assessments (i.e. frequent quizzing that is used to guide instruction & provide mnemonic enhancement) that have been proven to be a very effective learning tool. But these are all -instructional- changes that need to start and continue with the teacher. It's foolish for a district to follow a blind "build-it-and-they-will-come" strategy of flooding a school with digital devices and utterly failing at supporting instructional changes. If districts aren't willing to provide both continual funding for a 1-1 program as well as instructional support to teachers, then they're wasting their money. But we all need to recognize that schools are responsible for teaching students how to effectively use the internet in the pursuit of knowledge. The internet is the new information paradigm of our society, making it a necessary part of the curriculum.

Re:As a technology director for a K-12 district

[zerofoo]

Our experiences mirror yours. We've had great success with chromebooks, but the iPad thing is still a pain.

I recently spoke to a couple of Apple reps about their lack of focus on enterprise management for iPads. I explained how terrible the Apple Configurator is, and how their new Apple Device Enrollment Program is simply not enough. Apple needs to stop relying on third parties for large scale management if iOS devices. They need to build a management portal similar to Google's device management portal - and they needed it yesterday.

As a long time Apple fan, I still admit - Apple sucks at enterprise management.

Re:As a technology director for a K-12 district

[Vitriol Angst]

As someone who has done some tech support for schools using touch devices, I can say that your "enterprise management" wish list while important, isn't likely a big issue except for all but the largest school systems. In addition, some of the largest school systems seemed to have the most problem with technology. Most schools don't even have their WIFI set up in a reliable way.

The most important factor is reliability and robustness of the device. Our number one support call was clearing the cache on an iPad. People ran these things without ever clearing an app out of memory -- for years. I don't know of any other computing device in consumers hands that runs for years without a reset -- but apparently, iPads do it all the time in schools.

Not having a keyboard, being able to easily lock them down, and the quality of the build is what is making the iPad the defacto standard. Budget sensitive schools have of course TRIED using Android and Chrome and other bargain devices -- and they've gotten burned. Only the Palm and the iPad seem to have a reputation for lasting more than a year. But most of them will not be using enterprise anything for a few more years (I don't disagree that Apple needs to get their act together in that regard).

Sure, you can afford to buy two Chromebooks for the price of an iPad -- and you will have to.

Re:As a technology director for a K-12 district

[Vitriol Angst]

I remember about a year ago that Apple and IBM announced that they would be coordinating in Enterprise and adopting IBM solutions. So I'd say that there may be big progress in the near future in this space. IBM has a lot of strengths where Apple is weak.

Re:As a technology director for a K-12 district

[Anonymous Coward]

Also a K-12 technology director... and I will say we have very limited deployments of iPads due to the management issue, but very large scale Chromebook deployments. iPads are primarily a special education device.

I agree with everything you stated, and I will add that the Chromebooks are 100% compatible with all of our new state (PARCC) and district level (NWEA MAP) testing applications, so it's been a no brainer for our district.

We are even replacing labs with Chromeboxes and having great success. In about 3 years the only Windows devices will be in the admin offices and one for each teacher classroom.

Absurdity Itself

[SuperKendall]

I've seen studies that have shown that they interfere with learning, but none (that weren't sponsored by someone trying to sell stuff) that showed they improved learning.

It all comes down to what software is used on them, not the mere factor of having them, and with the right software it seems silly to think they cannot improve learning.

They improve learning for me as an adult, why can the same be impossible for a child? Even if it's just for learning still assisted by an adult, why can it not be better?

Re:Absurdity Itself

[Anonymous Coward]

I've seen studies that have shown that they interfere with learning, but none (that weren't sponsored by someone trying to sell stuff) that showed they improved learning.

It all comes down to what software is used on them, not the mere factor of having them, and with the right software it seems silly to think they cannot improve learning.

They improve learning for me as an adult, why can the same be impossible for a child? Even if it's just for learning still assisted by an adult, why can it not be better?

because i had strength to give yo mama some lovin', that's why

Re:Absurdity Itself

[Anonymous Coward]

I just want you to know that you're personally responsible for turning me into an iPhobe.

Thanks.

Re:Absurdity Itself

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope, mostly completely wrong.

It all comes down to teachers and their ability to create engaging lesson plans with what they have available. Because so many teachers suck, they just follow whatever the book or software does by default. So your statement about the software is only true for poor teachers. If a good teacher only had awful software, he/she would find a different medium for teaching the subject.

Google taking Apple's playbook

[Technician]

Early in the PC vs Apple days, Apple was heavy into the education market as the theory went as kids lift school they would continue to use what they learned in school.

Apple faced the reality of aftermarket gray box PC's running DOS, then Windows at a lower price embraced by business. Microsoft rode in on commodity hardware.

Now Windows and the support structure is high priced and Google is doing the Apple playbook getting into schools with an easy to use, secure platform, but with a price advantage. This could go somewhere. There is not much cheap platform hardware that can out perform the inexpensive hardware and software.

The only Achilles heel is the underpowered nature, but with proper growth, that could soon end. Chrome is not an enterprise platform, yet.

Re:Google taking Apple's playbook

[ruir]

Last time I looked education market is the first market where Apple has been and is still very strong.

Re:Google taking Apple's playbook

[Technician]

The point is after the education market, business is mostly non Apple. The exceptions are media production and related fields. Mobile media (tablets) should belong to Apple, but Android at lower price points has higher unit sales.

Google Chrome is poised to do to MS PC's what Android did to Apple Tablets and phones.

Re:Google taking Apple's playbook

[ruir]

Tell that to HP and Cisco who have been very quiet they are issuing macbook pros to their users...I have been also using Mac for more than a decade now, and I am into IT. The previous company I worked for also used Macs as desktops.

Re:Google taking Apple's playbook

[danbob999]

Do you have any other anecdotal evidence to share with us?

Re:Google taking Apple's playbook

[Anonymous Coward]

Chrome is becoming an enterprise platform with virtualization. Solutions as VMware Blast are bringing Windows application to Chromebooks, with the added security of running on the cloud

Re:Google taking Apple's playbook

[ruir]

Yep, HP and Cisco, and corporate america adopting Macs surely is anecdotal. The cat has been out of the bag since iPhones become ubiquitous, have you been hiding in a cave?

Re:Google taking Apple's playbook

[admdrew]

I work in HP's software division, and I can confirm this is actually not happening here. New HP employees get a choice between a few different laptop/desktop models, based on their business segment, that are all HP machines.

Getting access to alternative hardware (more powerful machines/macbooks) is possible, but requires a business need and managerial approval. Our iOS devs, for example, obviously get access to MBPs, but 'regular' users still get HP laptops.

Re:Google taking Apple's playbook

[danbob999]

Pretty sure HP isn't a majority Mac place... especially since they have their own PC line. Not sure about Cisco, but hey, if a random user on slashdot says it, it must be true isn't it? And yes, it is still anecdotal and isn't enough to conclude anything about "corporate America". Even less about the whole corporate world.

brawndo

[NotQuiteReal]

It's all good;

Chrome, Surface, iPad, they all have Brawndo, it's got electrolytes!

Right tool for right job

[iamacat]

Thin client with a keyboard is perfect for K-12 education. As students join, leave, or spill coke on their laptops, you can just redistribute $200 clients and replaces damaged ones without draining your finances. Schools can not afford highly skilled administrators that would keep data backed up and secure enough to match cloud storage run by company that specializes in this kind of thing.

Microsoft could have joined this market and been fairly successful at it. I played with POSReady 2009 in a VM recently. It's pretty much ChromeOS with Win32/.Net API and ability to run Office and DirectX software locally would be nice. Not sure if it can be configured to be as tightly integrated with Azure as Chromebook is with Google cloud services, but Microsoft certainly has smart people to make it happen.

Instead, they have for long time chosen to focus on expensive Surface hardware that doesn't quite commit to being either a great tablet OS or a great desktop OS. New CEO has done a lot of interesting moves, like making Office free for mobile devices and iOS/Android development support in Visual Studio. Perhaps they will succeed in education in time.

Re:Right tool for right job

[ruir]

You are surely joking, or not aware that Office may be "free" but you are locked-in in an office 365 account. Give me my Apple Numbers, Keynote and Pages in iPad any day. Thanks, but no "free" Office for me. And the point of using an iThing is escaping out of the claws of Microsoft and their stupidity.

Re:Right tool for right job

[iamacat]

You missed the new. It's now really free.

Better alternatives?

[thegarbz]

My only anecdotes actually are the exact opposite of the article. My own experience aside my wife taught at 2 schools in the past 2 years, one which dropped iPads form all students in favour of Asus Transformers, and the other which currently uses iPads and have approached Microsoft (not been approached by) for an RFP.

At the former school on the Asus tablets everything worked. Students were able to watch all content provided to them, run all applications, take notes, print, etc and pretty much do anything with ease. Across the road at the other private school where she is now seems to be a daily lesson in frustration. iPads not playing content correctly, really basic math software without the ability to save, export, share, print etc. The main word processor is unable to cope with mathematics (greek letters, among the myriad of other characters not typable on the Apple keyboard), and this is exactly what should be the tablet's forte. Then there's the usability issues such as printing support, and the facepalmingly stupid problem that the students have a never ending stream of support calls to IT because they are unable to upload assignments up to Blackboard from their iPad (not sure this is the iPad's fault but it worked fine on the Transformers).

The iPad is a great content absorption device when it works, but school is so much more than that. Currently they are looking at rolling out Surface Pro 3s but it's early yet. They may end up with another convertible of some description and may even fall back to standard laptops.

The only thing truly certain is it won't be iPads.

Re:Better alternatives?

[ruir]

People are rolling out Surfaces because Microsoft dumps them almost for free, but they could well be rolling steaming turds that we would not notice the difference, and would not touch them as well. Yes, mod me down at will.

Re:Better alternatives?

[ruir]

Professors here and students are showing up here with iPads and MacBook Pros, and amazing, their prefer to pay them out of their own pockets than using the Uni standard Windows boxen - more fantastic yet, the % of this devices is enormous, we track them on our network statistics. I mean huge. Big firms like Cisco are giving people the choice between crapastic Windows notebooks and MacbookPros, and guess what they choose. People also hate windows mobile, and the ones that have one company issued, take it just for a show/brick, and use their own iphone. Even the anchors on cnn that is paid for product placement of surface, hate it, and use it as a holder for their iPads. This is what happens when you fuck with your customers. And Btw, I love my iPhone 6 and my Macbook Pro. I prefer to pay them using the lame alternatives.

Re:Better alternatives?

[thegarbz]

Actually it's a $1000 cost that would get past on to the parents. Only the teachers will be issued them for free, and they will be paid for by the school.

Yes it's a discount since it includes the keyboard but that doesn't make your rant even remotely relevant.

Re:Better alternatives?

[thegarbz]

MacBook Pros are a different league altogether and would be an ideal device if it could be afforded. This wasn't an anti-apple point I was making, it was an anti-mobile/tablet OS point. Your point about product placement is not relevant. CNN anchors don't have a need for any kind of computing power in their jobs, likewise the football coaches. They use function specific apps in primarily a consumption mode.

This is quite a bit different from a school scenario which requires consumption AND creation. I used a tablet a lot at Uni as well. They were just coming out when I went through and I would have been an early adopter statistic for you to track, and if you tracked things to great detail you would have also noted that it my use was limited to checking timetables, browsing the web, and downloading PDFs for the course. It absolutely sucked for writing or creating anything, and may laptop absolutely sucked for quickly checking anything. I would happily have used a convertible tablet device. I only saw one at my school because at the time they had a $3k pricetag and a crap build quality and having the spare cash I would have upgraded my Macbook instead.

Nowadays? Like right now, I would buy a Surface Pro 3. In a few months? Maybe not, maybe some other transformable tablet. But sitting around and consuming content all day is not my usage requirements.

Re:Better alternatives?

[ruir]

If you say so. I shelled out money for Omnigrafle plus on my iPad, doing "visio" grapfs are a requirement on my job, and it is so much better to use it on an ipad. I also have some other software. For meetings, I prefer to carry my iPad to see and fiddle with my spreadsheets. I also create presentations with keynote in my iPad. For movies, I prefer to stream them with iPad or the iPhone. Ditto for watching movies out of hours. talking about content creation, I am a developer for the iOS plataform. you also have got spreadsheets programs, numbers for instance, and keynote, and some other programs. The interface is best for some things, not so much for others. If you do not want to work and spend all day on facebook, there is not much difference in having an iPad or a notebook. And please do not say something I said is not relevant. The point is everyone and their dogs hate surface and windows mobile, and prefer even to pay when they are issued free by the company. I was in that boat too, bringing my own Apple equipment to work, until the higher ups saw I was more efficient with them, and issue Apple stuff to all my team. About Surface? I would not even want it for free, and mind you, I am not alone on that. MS products suck. They are blowing products left and down. Their marketing and technical teams are at odds with what their customers want. I personally also hate them with a passion, I dont even want frigging Office in my Mac. Last time I had a Windows product I trowed it out of the Windows of my car in a sheer frustration rage out of it not working, and obliging me to run Windows emulations programs in my Mac to use it...no, but no thanks. Never again.

Re:Better alternatives?

[ruir]

What other people say are relevant dimwit. Saying that ne time is enough, two is you being a dick. You can be people not caring about their free stuff and taking their PAID Apple products to work/Office/classrooms is very RELEVANT and telling.

Re:Better alternatives?

[ruir]

not proofreading... What other people say are relevant dimwit. Saying that ONE time is enough, two is you being a dick. You can BET people not caring about their free stuff and taking their PAID Apple products to work/Office/classrooms is very RELEVANT and telling.

Re:Better alternatives?

[thegarbz]

Err you don't get a choice of what to bring into a school. Heck you often don't get a choice of what software to install on the device the school provided either.

You thinking I'm being a dick is not just an issue with proof-reading (which by the way consider doing a 3rd time next reply) it's also a failure of your reading comprehension.

Re:Better alternatives?

[Overzeetop]

You've never actually used a tablet convertable have you? I have one as my secondary machine. That, along with a phablet-sized phone (iPhone 6+/Note4 size) has made me drop my iPad entirely. Content creation on the iPad is just too challenging, and a convertible Win machine means being able to flip from regular laptop mode (like a MacBook Pro) to tablet mode, where I have pixel-accurate pen input for sketching, or just a full-fledged browser that can run flash (yes, flash sucks...but it also controls significant portions of the internet). If I want large scale, I use my 15" convertible; if I'm just browsing or watching videos myself, the phone is big enough for the job.

iPads are great as reference material holders and content consumers, but for creation the limitations are fairly stark unless you're connected to an all all-mac system (in which I hear they're better). And, of course, nothing beats a desktop for real work. I laugh when watching people use a trackpad / touchscreen to try and get work done. They're convenient, but no match for a keyboard and mouse when it comes to speed. And when it comes time to make the money, speed counts.

Re:Better alternatives?

[ruir]

Again it depends on the uses, and your experience. I am much more proficient with a trackpad than a mouse, and do have some uses for content creation on an iPad. And I hate Android and Windows. You yourself said the iPad is superior in all-Mac system on the user side.

Re:Better alternatives?

[ruir]

I maintain you are a dick by diminishing other peoples opinions in favour of your own, and what I am seeing in working in a large schooling environment does not relate what you are saying. As I said, and it was also my case people prefer to bring their own Apple equipment paid with their hard earned money than dealing with the alternative. And then it is me who has reading comprehension. Right on. Either you enjoy burying you head on the sand, or are an MS shill.

Not really...

[Retron]

I work in a school. We've been through the whole "every pupil gets a computer" phase and it was a disaster - we used eeepcs running Xandros and initially there were complaints about how crummy the programs were. (IE people expected Office, but they got OpenOffice instead).

Then after a few days the breakages started - minibooks left in bags, being dropped, screens smashed, drinks spilt on them etc. So that meant that teachers couldn't rely on everyone having one any more and the whole point of them was lost. They stopped being used and we ended up getting about 30% of them back after the year was out, the rest were damaged or lost. It was an absolute waste of money and it still goes on with other schools today (those who are foolish enough to give tablets to all their pupils, anyway!)

We still use desktop PCs running Windows and Office, as it's what the real world uses (for now, at least). We provide access via UAG to our network for staff and pupils to access their documents remotely.

Google Docs, OneDrive etc are blocked for pupils. Chromebooks are pointless from our point of view due to Google Docs being blocked and lack of intergration into a Windows domain. They also don't run the programs which pupils use in school (which include some digital textbooks, additional educational needs programs, maths programs, Photoshop etc). iPads are beyond useless for our needs, as it's a faff to create spreadsheets or word process on them. Yes, it can be done, but a real keyboard and a decent PC make it much more pleasant.

So, like most schools around this part of the UK, we have several IT rooms with desktops. We have a media suite running Premiere (having phased out Macs a few years ago), a music suite running Cubase and a DT suite running SolidWorks. We have a couple of hundred staff laptops and a couple of hundred curriculum laptops, safely locked away at night.

We are looking at at BYOD implementation, but the powers that be aren't overly keen to have teenagers running around with expensive laptops, tablets etc. And there's the whole network file access issue, we can't add the machines to the domain so they'd have to go through the somewhat clunky UAG system to access their files. There's also the line of who has responsibility to ensure the machines accessing our network are patched and up-to-date, as we don't have the resources to look after people's personal equipment.

All in all, there won't be much change in the school where I work for the foreseeable future: Office and Windows look like remaining the main platform for a while yet. It's the same in the other schools in the area, Chromebooks and the like are simply not useful to the way that schools work around here.

Re:Not really...

[serviscope_minor]

IE people expected Office, but they got OpenOffice instead

I've always been astonuded why people care about this in schools. When I was at school, we had Word for DOS. I never used it since. I remember none of the F-keys to use it, because by the time I finished, the world moved on.

Nowadays, there seem to be some smaller, new companies which use nothing but google docs for internal documents. Learning Microsoft (r) Office (tm) for Windows (r)(tm) won't help there any more than learning OpenOffice or something else.

And besides most kids now are used to phones and tablets and those certainly don't run full-blown Office.

Madness.

Re:Not really...

[nukenerd]

We still use desktop PCs running Windows and Office, as it's what the real world uses (for now, at least).

Even if the "real world" is still using Windows and Office by the time your kids get into it, do you seriously believe that that they will still be the same versions and have the same UI as they do today? Look back ten years and see how things have changed since then. Even the concept of files and directories has changed.

True, some things have not changed, but those things (the Internet, keyboard layout) are common to all systems anyway.

Besides, I think you are seriously under-rating you pupils' ability to adapt (which differs from the ability to moan). I saw the change at work when everyone first got a desk PC, as opposed to a few techies sharing a mainframe terminal in a special room. We all went on a two day course - engineers, clerks, typists, workshop foremen - and they took to computers like ducks to water. And that was a change from pen-and-paper and forms to PCs. Yet you are saying your pupils could not adapt from Word to LibreOffice, say, if they needed to. If so, I think your teaching must be making their minds too narrow somehow.

Re:Not really...

[ray-auch]

I work in a school. We've been through the whole "every pupil gets a computer" phase and it was a disaster - we used eeepcs running Xandros and initially there were complaints about how crummy the programs were. (IE people expected Office, but they got OpenOffice instead).

Then after a few days the breakages started - minibooks left in bags, being dropped, screens smashed, drinks spilt on them etc. So that meant that teachers couldn't rely on everyone having one any more and the whole point of them was lost. They stopped being used and we ended up getting about 30% of them back after the year was out,

I am astounded how many people still think it is a good idea to give non-ruggedized kit to school kids, it's as if they deliberately forget what it was like to be a kid.

Tablet form factor (and lack of moving parts) lends itself to ruggedization, and there are lots of case options available, laptops (or chromebooks etc.) with moving and spinning parts need to be built rugged so you want ToughBooks or similar - but then you've blown your budget by a mile.

My kid has a school iPad, it's locked into a case that claims to be mil-spec - I have my doubts, I don't think you could throw it in a puddle, drive over it and pick it up and use it afterwards like the old Husky Hunters (the military being somewhat like overgrown school-kids) but you can certainly splash drink on it or drop it down some stairs without problems. Their breakage rate after a year was about 1%, which is way better than professional developers manage with corporate laptops IME...

Like anything else - research properly before splashing cash.

Not good choices

[Anonymous Coward]

None of the devices are good choices for schools. iPads are fragile, Chromebook's are not much better and even PC's schools purchase are too cheap to hold up long term. The expense of wireless infrastructure to manage all those devices is the real killer in cost. So many liberals talk about the income inequality and yet this does nothing but separate more the have form the have not school districts. So far, I have yet to see any cheering from districts who are tech ready that have improved test scores. I think everyone jumped on the tech bandwagon only because it was such a popular thing to do. Tools are only good if you know how to use them properly. You can't just buy Chromebooks or iPads or even Surfaces without having a real plan on how to administer them as useful learning tools. For the most part I believe they are still being used as content providers in place of text books. Is this better and more cost effective?

Schools should never be dependend on a single vend

[danbob999]

Schools, especially public schools, you never depend on a single supplier. They should never buy any software that can only run on hardware from a single company. Yes, I know it rules out any Apple device, but the cost of lock-in is way too high.

You're doing it wrong

[zerofoo]

We've successfully implemented chromebooks - their low cost and ease of management can not be beat.

Your model of office coupled with local storage is a dinosaur. Modern companies (where your students will eventually work) require a mobile workforce that can connect and collaborate from anywhere. Getting your students onto cloud based apps and data prepares them for how they will work in their future careers.

We do not have kids walk around with laptops. We have carts in each classroom, and laptops are pulled out as needed. Students don't walk around with other classroom materials like microscopes and yardsticks. Why would you make kids walk around with computers?

Chromebooks work well in a "classroom cart" environment. They boot quickly, their data is stored in the cloud, and they shutdown quickly. The instructional overhead of traditional windows based computers simply does not exist with chromebooks.

We have some traditional Mac desktops for staff members and for special purpose labs, but for general purpose computing chromebooks can not be beat.

Finally! The Year of Linux!

[Eponymous Coward]

Linux has finally become the dominant operating system and nobody knows it.

Ahhh NICE !

[Anonymous Coward]

MSFT and AAPL $hills slugging it out.

Can somebody bring beer ?

Windows = HALAL

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, and "block" everything else. What an enlightened approach.

I guess the objective is to "imbibe kids with capitalist monopolism from an early age".

FUCK THAT.

Forget it

[Anonymous Coward]

It is 100% useless to rationally discuss with M$FT $hills. They are maniacs drumming for Windows, only Windows, nothing but Windows like the duracell robot.

Different strokes.

[Anonymous Coward]

As somebody who works in the IT Department at a large public school district, I find the inclusion of tablets (not just iPads, but any tablet) to be a bit of a headache. You can add all of the peripherals you want to a tablet, such as a bluetooth keyboard, etc., but it can not match the span of usability of an actual laptop. Likewise, accidents with tablets are a bit frustrating to deal with. The act of holding the device, by nature alone, causes the chance of damage to rise considerably, as opposed to a device that sits on a table and is used accordingly. Aside from the ergonomic piece, their overall usability (speaking from a productivity standpoint) isn't exactly fantastic. Everything is app based, most times loaded with nonsense ads and in-app purchases to upgrade for additional functionality. Of course pay apps exist, but in some cases the "app" version of xyz solution costs money whereas the web based variant does not. And yes, you could fire it up on the browser, but in a lot of cases that's not so much a slam dunk unless the web site caters to mobile devices. I find there are enough "gotcha!" snags with using a tablet full time that it begs the question, is it worth it? Your needs will dictate what device will be best suitable, so that's not to say that tablets are terrible by any stretch, but I can't help but to look at a tablet and think Facebook, Netflix, Email. I don't look at a tablet and think "I can do my work. I can accomplish this project. I can finish my research paper. And I can do all of this in the most comfortable and efficient means possible now!" Of course, there are apps that cater to specific needs in special use cases, *and for that I love them and find them irreplaceable* - but speaking on a broad sense of "let's replace *all* laptops with a tablet", that ideology is enough to make my stomach churn.

That said, there's also the cost factor of it all. A full Microsoft network is very expensive. Then again, a full Apple network is very expensive. Costs will allow or deny you to do certain things, so like what any logical environment would do, you have to work within your means. That's one reason Chromebooks are as attractive as they are since they are very affordable. Chromebooks are nice and definitely more ergonomically sound, but they have their own list of pros/cons. Maybe some day tablets will be even more amazing and I'll change my tone. Maybe tomorrow I'll find out about a new list of things Chromebooks can do that will change my tone. It's possible. I'm not sure I'd bet money on that, but anything is possible. With that on the table, it's worth mentioning that I am speaking from my own perspective in my own environment. These setups may work for some people, but I wouldn't go as far as to say they (Chromebooks, tablets, or anything really) is an instant "one size fits all and will fix all of the problems in the world" type of device. Each environment is different. Each environment has different needs.

As for us, we run a mixed platform environment with the majority of our systems running Ubuntu Linux. The project has been in place for just over 3 years now and continues to grow. We were in search of an answer to our problem and we found a solution. It works extremely well for our environment. That concludes my 2c. :)

Re:Different strokes.

[ray-auch]

As somebody who works in the IT Department at a large public school district, I find the inclusion of tablets (not just iPads, but any tablet) to be a bit of a headache. You can add all of the peripherals you want to a tablet, such as a bluetooth keyboard, etc., but it can not match the span of usability of an actual laptop. Likewise, accidents with tablets are a bit frustrating to deal with. The act of holding the device, by nature alone, causes the chance of damage to rise considerably, as opposed to a device that sits on a table and is used accordingly.

See this is where I think people go wrong - you are viewing a tablet as "can it replace a laptop" rather than "what can it do". I don't understand why schools even use laptops in the first place - the entire purpose of a laptop is to be portable (less so than a tablet), but you say they "sit on a table". In that case, a desktop is surely better in every way - more robust, more upgradeable, more ergonomic in terms of screen and keyboard positioning, etc. If on the other hand you are actually _using_ the portability (the raison d'etre of a laptop) then you have schoolkids carrying them around, and then bring on the breakages - unless you have the budget for the likes of ToughBooks.

Tablets on the other hand are straightforward to ruggedize with external cases (being essentially a cuboid slab with zero moving parts), and open up a lot of use cases you simply wouldn't even consider a laptop for. When my kids' school trialled them, the most interesting and perhaps the most compelling use cases they came out of it with were things I had not even considered, simply because I had always used some combination of desktops laptops and phone.

Anecdote on Apple Configurator

[Pollux]

We have about 50 iPads in our building for now. Last year, I was busy loading apps on a few in Apple Configurator when it glitched on me. Said I had -1 apps when the detailed redemption code list showed that there were still two to spare.

Called and complained to Apple. They took a copy of my AC database and analyzed it. Told me it was corrupt. Refunded me 1 1/2 years of app purchases, told me to get another Mac computer, unsupervised all the iPads on the old config station, re-supervise them on the new, buy all new apps, and load them all again onto the iPads. I told them that this process would take about 20 hours to accomplish and told them that they'd likely lose future business if there was nothing they could do further for an unhappy customer. They politely said "nope."

And that's why Google's winning.

Re:Anecdote on Apple Configurator

[Vitriol Angst]

Can you call Google with this sort of problem with a Chromebook, or would you be calling the vendor?

Our office went 100% Google Plus for communications, and we did have a rep, but I was not aware that they supported the touchscreen devices.

Locked down Chromebooks

[jim_deane]

I teach physics and the list of software I can't run and for which there is no full equivalent is longer than the list of software equivalents I do use on Chromebooks.

I have had to maintain a classroom lab of Windows computers to run the software I need for data import and analysis, video analysis, computational physics, and simulations. If IT stops supporting them, I could easily run all of that software on Linux on the same machines for the foreseeable future.

Re:Locked down Chromebooks

[perpenso]

I teach physics and the list of software I can't run and for which there is no full equivalent is longer than the list of software equivalents I do use on Chromebooks.

I have had to maintain a classroom lab of Windows computers to run the software I need for data import and analysis, video analysis, computational physics, and simulations. If IT stops supporting them, I could easily run all of that software on Linux on the same machines for the foreseeable future.

A classroom machine for the teacher and/or classroom scale events is one thing. A machine for each student to carry around and use on a daily basis is something entirely different.

I once wrote chemistry software for the educational market. We targeted Windows and Mac because that is what schools/students had. If schools/students had ChromeBooks we would target ChromeBooks. OK, it would be a web app rather than a native app. Sad for the old C/ASM programmers like me. Hardly matters to the student.

Even in schools

[Anonymous Coward]

People are beginning to find out that you can get by a day pretty easily without Windows.

In fact, you can even stay away from all of Microsoft's ecosystem. However, if you really need Microsoft Office - it has already been ported to OSX, iOS, Android.

Other than access to exclusive PC games, Windows is a dead man walking. Maybe Microsoft can persuade schools to let their students play games in the classroom... that might help boost sales of Windows devices.

They deserve it after paying $500m to the nfl

[Anonymous Coward]

MS deserves to lose the market. Their asshole marketing department blew $500 million promoting the surface in NFL wen fr the same price they could have put one in the hands of every school kid in America.