Slashdot Mirror


Consumer-Grade SSDs Survive Two Petabytes of Writes

crookedvulture writes The SSD Endurance Experiment previously covered on Slashdot has reached another big milestone: two freaking petabytes of writes. That's an astounding total for consumer-grade drives rated to survive no more than a few hundred terabytes. Only two of the initial six subjects made it to 2PB. The Kingston HyperX 3K, Intel 335 Series, and Samsung 840 Series expired on the road to 1PB, while the Corsair Neutron GTX faltered at 1.2PB. The Samsung 840 Pro continues despite logging thousands of reallocated sectors. It has remained completely error-free throughout the experiment, unlike a second HyperX, which has suffered a couple of uncorrectable errors. The second HyperX is mostly intact otherwise, though its built-in compression tech has reduced the 2PB of host writes to just 1.4PB of flash writes. Even accounting for compression, the flash in the second HyperX has proven to be far more robust than in the first. That difference highlights the impact normal manufacturing variances can have on flash wear. It also illustrates why the experiment's sample size is too small to draw definitive conclusions about the durability of specific models. However, the fact that all the drives far exceeded their endurance specifications bodes well for the endurance of consumer-grade SSDs in general.

125 comments

  1. HDD endurance? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Just out of curiosity, how well do traditional HDD fare in comparison?

    1. Re:HDD endurance? by PlusFiveTroll · · Score: 4, Informative

      In average desktop use, and even non video media workstation it's rare to see a drive that's written 10TB. Most people will never wear out a SSD due to straight out media wear.

    2. Re:HDD endurance? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      Just out of curiosity, how well do traditional HDD fare in comparison?

      They cave in big time after around 150 win98 shutdown restarts ..

    3. Re:HDD endurance? by Luckyo · · Score: 3, Informative

      Impossible to test in the same way due to time constraints. Filling the entire hard drive takes a very long time, unlike a much smaller and much faster SSD.

    4. Re:HDD endurance? by jedidiah · · Score: 2

      A PVR drive could easily see 17TB of writes during a year and that's just a very conservative estimate based on a small number of tuners and broadcast content.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    5. Re:HDD endurance? by rthille · · Score: 1

      Sequential I/O with big write sizes can be pretty fast (~180MB/s) on modern large drives. SSDs can be ~4x that, so the tests would only take ~4x as long for similar data sizes.

      --
      Awesome furniture, accessories and cabinetry in Santa Rosa, CA: http://humanity-home.com/
    6. Re:HDD endurance? by afidel · · Score: 1

      Not really, for streaming writes a HDD is only about 1/3rd the speed of these drives (WD Caviar Black 1TB, 150MB/s sustained streaming write vs Intel 335 at 450MB/s streaming writes).

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    7. Re:HDD endurance? by PlusFiveTroll · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Of course video writing is the perfect application for hard drives. A constant datastream at a fixed rate and large amounts of data over time, with few random IO and only bulk delete. If you are trying to stick a SSD in a PVR you are doing it wrong.

    8. Re:HDD endurance? by MrL0G1C · · Score: 1

      Eh? It would take less than 100 days to write a 1PB to a 3TB drive. One could write to a 240GB area of the drive repeatedly if they wanted to.

      A 3TB drive can be filled roughly 3 to 4 times a day.

      --
      Waterfox - a Firefox fork with legacy extension support, security updates and better privacy by default.
    9. Re:HDD endurance? by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      Now remind yourself of comparable hard drive size, comprehend that you're looking at something that is several times slower AND several times larger.

      Now consider that this test for SSDs has been running for well over a year now. How many years, or even decades would you need to get the same test of HDDs?

    10. Re:HDD endurance? by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 0

      Based on my file server usage, HDDs last about five years. Most have some kind of a mechanical problem. I replace all the drives every five years. Since SSDs have no mechanical parts, and become cheaper than HDDs, they should last at least ten years.

    11. Re:HDD endurance? by Firethorn · · Score: 2

      A constant datastream at a fixed rate

      Not completely fixed(depends on channel being recorded at the time), I would think, but yeah, a fixed rate that's substantially below a HD's write speed.

      Remember that SSDs are relatively slow at writing compared to reading. HDs are generally equally fast in either direction, so given a sufficiently sequential write process I can see them actually being able to write faster than the SSD.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    12. Re:HDD endurance? by Hamsterdan · · Score: 3, Informative

      Recording TV is not a typical scenario. Besides, at around 8GB/hour (HD), that's around 2000 hours a year, which is little more than what my BeyondTV machine does, and its 3TB WD green is still alive and kicking. You just have to disable the insanely aggressive head parking on those drives otherwise they might die...

      http://www.storagereview.com/h...

      --
      I've got better things to do tonight than die.
    13. Re:HDD endurance? by beelsebob · · Score: 1

      So then, 0.1 times what an SSD will take, even if you keep it for a decade?

    14. Re:HDD endurance? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Relatively slow compared to what, it's own read speeds?

      Because virtually all SSDs 256gb or larger will do higher sustained sequential writes than any hard drive I know of.

    15. Re:HDD endurance? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let's do some math here, shall we? At 200 MB/s, you can overwrite a 1 TB drive in an hour. 1 PB you can reach in a month. The hard drives are a few times larger than the SSDs, so you'd need ~ 10 TB instead of 2, which means 10 months.

    16. Re:HDD endurance? by magarity · · Score: 2

      It's been a while since you shopped for an SSD? The larger capacity ones have nearly equal read and write speeds except for the most extreme budget brands.

    17. Re:HDD endurance? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fix your signature.

    18. Re:HDD endurance? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But with SSD it is not our right to write our writes to the right sector of the disk. The drive says, "nope, I will write it wherever I want to write it, your rights to write notwithstanding". (I am aware you were talking about writing to a specific area of a spinning HDD and I am talking about an SSD - I just thought it was funny).

    19. Re:HDD endurance? by Frnknstn · · Score: 2

      He said:

      Remember that SSDs are relatively slow at writing compared to reading

      You said:

      Relatively slow compared to what, it's own read speeds?

      So... yes?

      --
      If it's in you sig, it's in your post.
    20. Re:HDD endurance? by hairyfeet · · Score: 1, Informative

      But its bullshit, its like saying "HDD survives 100 bazillion writes!" because the plate doesn't shatter. NEWS FLASH its NOT the flash cells that fail, ITS THE CONTROLLER and frankly THAT is what still makes SSDs risky.

      I'm sure this will be followed by a million stupid fucking anecdotes because somebody got a 2003 Maxtor or 2011 Seagate 1.5TB and it shit the bed but considering I've dealt with more HDDs in a week than most here will swap in a lifetime? Mine should probably count a little higher and like it or not HDDs by and large WILL give you a warning before they shit the bed, be it SMART, or noise, or delayed write fails, it'll give ya something to go on. When an SSD controller is about to shit, doesn't matter the brand because NONE of them give you ANY warning. There is no SMART for SSDs, no POST, no diagnostics, just one time it works and the next it dies and takes your data with it....poof!

      So yes SSDs are nice IF you make religious backups AND you don't put anything you care about on them....if that is the case? Enjoy. But if you are putting things you actually don't want to lose on SSDs? Well you've been warned, you'll learn when that drive controller fails and nothing short of a $5k recovery by specialists can get your stuff back.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    21. Re:HDD endurance? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am at about 7TB after 6 months. My wife on the same drive is at about 4TB.

      I goof around with tons of VMs. She plays her pre installed games.

      1TB is not THAT much data. You can clip 100-200 meg in one day just by goofing around on the web.

    22. Re:HDD endurance? by Bengie · · Score: 1

      SATA3.0 bottleneck

    23. Re:HDD endurance? by Bengie · · Score: 4, Informative

      The controller is just as likely to fair on a regular HD. Overall, SSDs have 1/2 of the warranty claim rate of mechanical HDs. Samsung is so sure of their SSDs, they have a 10 year warranty on their new ones, or 150TB written, which is a lot of writes for a 128GB drive. Show me a mechanical drive with a 10 year warranty for under $150

    24. Re:HDD endurance? by ThaumaTechnician · · Score: 1

      Came here to ask the same question.

    25. Re:HDD endurance? by unrtst · · Score: 2

      Let's do some math here, shall we? At 200 MB/s, you can overwrite a 1 TB drive in an hour. 1 PB you can reach in a month. The hard drives are a few times larger than the SSDs, so you'd need ~ 10 TB instead of 2, which means 10 months.

      Include all the actual variables, and you might get a usable answer. Just blowing data on the disk isn't the only thing this is doing (AFAIK). You've gotta detect errors, so you've gotta read back the data and validate it. This page goes through their full testing methodology (hint: they're using Anvil, a static file collection that includes a copy of a windows install, some applications, some movies, and some incompressible data, among other things, and every file has its md5sum checked after writing): http://techreport.com/review/2...

      An easier calculation would be to scale their timelines to the HDD stats. For example:
      Samsung 840 Pro sequential read/write: 540MB/s / 520MB/s (390MB/s for 128GB)
      WD Caviar Black: about 180MB/s read/write (ex. http://www.storagereview.com/w...)
      Rough math: 520 / 180 = 2.89 = it'll take 2.89 times as long to do the test on the same size drive.

      Samsung 840 Pro size in the article: 256GB
      Assuming you use WD Caviar Black 1TB = 4x's the size.
      2.89 * 4 = 11.55 = that many times as long to do the same operations they've done thus far.

      Their test has been running for over a year. So it'd take (roughly) over 11.5 years to do the same on the WD Caviar Black. I understand that's a very very rough estimate, but I think it's MUCH closer to the ballpark than 10 months!

      My bet: the WD will be dead long before that time. I've had drives last longer than that, but they got VERY VERY little use and were simply powered on all the time. I've had some that lasted longer than that and got a fair bit of use (ex. db servers), but they were never filled to capacity, they were enterprise drives, and some of their neighbors did die (RAID).

    26. Re:HDD endurance? by Mashiki · · Score: 2

      Well before the market crash on HDD prices you could see the rare one with a 10yr warranty for $150. The Fujitsu drives I used to use were consumer grade, and had a 10yr warranty. Of course then we went to 5yr, then 3yr, and I think some are even 1yr now. It's just like the market crash back in the late 90's early 00's. Give it a few years, and the warranties will start coming back up...that is if they survived SSD's becoming the mainstream choice for storage.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    27. Re:HDD endurance? by tomofumi · · Score: 1

      The SSD write speed will be much slower if the drive is full. It is much slower (2X? 3X?) than a brand new SSD.

    28. Re:HDD endurance? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The methodology is no good if they don't let the internal buffer "expire" of the written data by writing some other data before reading it back for md5sum. This is why it's preferable to write entire drive full, then do a checksum read pass (or perhaps do 10 checksums total for every 10% of the capacity).

    29. Re:HDD endurance? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1TB is not THAT much data. You can clip 100-200 meg in one day just by goofing around on the web.

      Examples of 250 GB Monthly Transfers

      "It can be difficult to put a gigabyte -- let alone 250 gigabytes -- into actual usage context. Here are some examples of how different ISPs describe 250 GB of data usage:

      • Send 50 million plain text e-mails (at 5KB/e-mail)
      • Download 62,500 songs (at 4 MB/song)
      • Download 125 standard-definition movies (at 2 GB/movie)
      • Upload 25,000 hi-resolution digital photos (at 10 MB/photo)
      • (Source: Comcast)
      • Download 50,000 songs
      • Download 570 (1 hour) TV shows
      • Download 285 standard-definition movies
      • Download 25 high-definition movies.
      • (Source: Bell Aliant)
      • Download one high-definition movie (approx 8 GB) every day for 30 days"
    30. Re:HDD endurance? by hackertourist · · Score: 1

      Doesn't anyone hibernate their computer at the end of the day? 8 GBx365 days = 3 TB in one year for my main machine.

    31. Re:HDD endurance? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, that's about every other week?

      Or do only the deliberate shutdowns count, and not the "press space to return and wait for Windows to respond, or hit Ctrl-Alt-Del again to reboot" ones?

    32. Re:HDD endurance? by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      Now compare the relative size of similar HDD. Now comprehend that this test has been running over a year now. Do the math on how many years it would take for similar test to be done on HDDs.

      Then understand the original statement.

    33. Re:HDD endurance? by Luckyo · · Score: 2

      Seriously, you're a third person on slashdot who hasn't even read the OP.

      The SSD test has been going on for over a year now. Consider the fact that best case scenario for HDD means it's several times slower as well as several times larger. Understand that you're looking at many years, possibly over a decade of test time.

    34. Re:HDD endurance? by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 2

      Since every time I tried that it caused weird issues every week or so I would hazard a guess that next to nobody does that, yeah. At least not on Windows.
      But even if you do SSDs can handle that load. 1 PB /3TB = 300 years (or 100 if you count 16GB of non-hibernate writes per day). Thus the cell wear is not your most likely problem.

      --
      Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
    35. Re:HDD endurance? by bwcbwc · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't use 1 PB as the benchmark. Only half of the drives in the sample made it that long. but 3 TB per year means 33 years to even reach 100 TB. It's pretty likely your entire computer will be obsolete by then, even if Moore's law bottoms out in the next decade or so.

      --
      We are the 198 proof..
    36. Re:HDD endurance? by Bengie · · Score: 1

      My 120GB "game" drive has 0.27TB written after 8 months. My 256GB OS HD has 7.85TB written after 3 years, page files will eat it up! I probably use a lot more than the average user.

    37. Re:HDD endurance? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

      Japanese PVRs need multiple HDDs because a single one can't keep up. A few years ago they started to record everything... All over-the-air channels simultaneously, 24/7, allowing you to watch anything that was broadcast at any time in the last week. No need to set up recording for anything, just grab it any time up to a week after broadcast.

      Once SSDs get up to capacity they would ideal for that application. Until they they use multiple HDDs and a fair size RAM cache.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    38. Re:HDD endurance? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      They only hit their advertised write speeds with highly compressible data in most cases. With random data the write speed drops to less than half the read speed typically. It also depends on the nature of the writes, as some scenarios will cause a massive amount of write amplification.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    39. Re:HDD endurance? by rthille · · Score: 1

      Partly it depends on whether you care about being able to write a certain amount of data, or rewrite the blocks the same number of times...

      Most consumers of hard-drive services care about how much data they can safely store and retrieve and the speed & cost of the device, not how many times they can rewrite a flash block before it fails...

      --
      Awesome furniture, accessories and cabinetry in Santa Rosa, CA: http://humanity-home.com/
    40. Re: HDD endurance? by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      Hairy difference is you can pick the controller. Sandforce and OCX RUN.

      Crucial buggy and will die without update.

      I run sansdisk and Samsung pros in raid 0 for years. Their controllers are good and asked microcenter which gave lowest RMA? You should switch Hairy it's not 2010 anymore and they improved. Yes I owned 2 2011 Seagates that died :-)

      No way will I go back. Swtor and battlefield 4 are unusable on a mechanical.

      Also Intel has trim in raid 0 that AMD doesn't which blows for AMD fans but with that combo you can do raid

    41. Re:HDD endurance? by MrL0G1C · · Score: 1

      You haven't done any math, if you had you'd realise they haven't been doing the test 24/7.

      Look at the screengrab on this page:
      http://techreport.com/review/2...

      Here:
      http://techreport.com/r.x/ssd-...

      It shows that their test was rather slow, they were only writing at 208MB/s

      At that speed it would take 58 Days 19 hours and 45 minutes to write 1 Petabyte.

      I already did the math for a HDD - it would take about 100 days to write 1 Petabyte to a HDD.

      Since they started the test in 2013, they could have done that easily.

      --
      Waterfox - a Firefox fork with legacy extension support, security updates and better privacy by default.
    42. Re: HDD endurance? by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Uhhh...Windows defrags SSDs since Win 7, no need for trim. And can you show me a website where they list which controller is on what drive? because i have seen supposedly identical drives with different controllers and not all of us are lucky enough to live near a Microcenter.

      And I'm not going by 2010 I'm going by as little as 4 months ago which is when I had one of my gamer customers lost an SSD. It wasn't even 7 months old, sorry I can't tell you the exact model as I won't support SSDs except as a strictly boot drive with religious backup to an onboard HDD. I wanna say Sandisk but may have been OCZ, its whatever was the hottest on the benches that month, wasn't no cheapie either, we are talking high performance 512Mb drive, didn't make 6 months before the controller just shit the bed.

      Oh and just FYI but with SSDs? Yeah you really can't go by RMA because so many are used for the OS drive and have sensitive info on them that they will often get tossed rather than risk ID theft. This is why I tell folks "don't buy any SSD you an't afford to toss and replace" because that IS what you will end up doing if you value your data, just as the gamer did when he found out he'd have to RMA to get it replaced and he had zero way of wiping the drive, he just chucked it in the trash.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    43. Re: HDD endurance? by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      I read maximum pc and Google a few others. Samsung and sansdisk are proprietary controllers. Toshiba uses Ocz which supposedly fixed their modded crappy sandforce.

      Intel back in 2010 had a few buggy firmwares. New are fine. I do not trust ocz, anything sandforce, or crucial. The newer ones use maxwell too which is ok. But OCZ truly does suck. I still have a mechanical drive for backup files and one drive too.

      I have 4 ssds for almost 2 years in 2 raids. Survived probably 10 reimages and full disk writes :-) One volume Sansdisk ultra plus. Other sansdisk pro 840. Have tons of vm s on them with lots of reinstalls. Both proprietary controllers.

      Check on the failed ones in your shop? I bet most are ocz or sandforce. Ocz is sandforce with redundancy removed. XP causes them to fail quicker too due to lack of Trim

      Oh AND TRIM is essential. This is because when you delete it doesn't erase. Sectors are virtual and the controller keeps looking for data to save. It is strange. I use parted magic to do an internal erase whenever I reinstall an os. Go Google it?

      Try a good oNE for 1 week. You won't want to go back. Especially if you have a mechanical disk and cloud backup

    44. Re: HDD endurance? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What a load of garbage.

      1) SSDs don't need defragging since the access time is not affected by where the data blocks are written. Turn on defragging for an SSD is a waste.

      2) You are implying you don't use TRIM - If true more fool you.

      3) In all your posts you never mention what SSDs you have problems with. For all we know you are using refurbished OCZ drives.

      4) You always wail about your gamer systems failing. Gamers like to push their systems, and I would like to see what a test of their power supplies looks like. But like the SSDs you seem to be scared to give out any hardware details about these so-called failing systems. How do we know if your problems don't come from sub-standard parts.

      5) Just about everyone out there including big companies where failing drives cost big bucks find modern SSDs to be reliable, yet you keep having problem. May be it is time to admit that the problem is probably in you and how you are setting up your hardware.

                  E.C.P.

    45. Re:HDD endurance? by _Shorty-dammit · · Score: 1

      Not all SSDs compress.

    46. Re:HDD endurance? by gigaherz · · Score: 1

      HDDs usually die from mechanical failure rather than the magnetic surface wearing out. I'm not aware of the surface wearing out being something to worry about, since all the headers do is spin around the magnetic poles on the material. But the headers can scratch the surface causing bad sectors, the stepper motors can die, etc. In some cases it's possible to recover critical information by placing the platters on a non-damaged disk, although opening a modern HDD has to be done inside very clean rooms so that no dust gets inside the disk.

    47. Re:HDD endurance? by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      No the reason for the slowness is that they actually, shockingly, TEST the drive.

      Not just write on it.

      It's pretty sad that you actually went to the length of posting a link to the article that straight up debunks your claims.

    48. Re:HDD endurance? by MrL0G1C · · Score: 1

      No, sad is people who can't admit they're wrong.

      --
      Waterfox - a Firefox fork with legacy extension support, security updates and better privacy by default.
    49. Re:HDD endurance? by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      Ditto. Now read the article and consider doing just that. I've been following the test for the year it's been running, and it's very obvious to anyone tech minded why this test is unfeasible on HDDs.

    50. Re:HDD endurance? by MrL0G1C · · Score: 1

      and it's very obvious to anyone tech minded why this test is unfeasible on HDDs.

      I have explained how it is feasible, you on the other hand have insisted it isn't feasible without giving any logical reason why.

      --
      Waterfox - a Firefox fork with legacy extension support, security updates and better privacy by default.
    51. Re:HDD endurance? by KozmoStevnNaut · · Score: 1

      I work for a Danish IPTV provider, and we do the same thing. Everything is recorded and kept for at least 7 days, so our customers can watch whenever they want. It's proven to be extremely popular.

      --
      Eat the rich.
    52. Re:HDD endurance? by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      No, you have explained why a straight up "write only and do nothing else" test you yourself devised is remotely feasible.

      What you have not even touched upon was the actual subject - why the test that techreport has been performing is not feasible to perform on HDDs. This in spite of linking to the actual testing methodology a few posts before this one.

    53. Re:HDD endurance? by MrL0G1C · · Score: 1

      This isn't rocket science, all that is needed is some script to copy files to the hdd, delete files, rinse and repeat, check smart stats occasionally.

      HDDs write at over 100mb/s. the test they did wasn't a whole lot faster. It is simple to deduce that the test is easily possible on a hdd. No-one has said the drives have to be filled the same number of times, merely that a petabyte has to be written, that can be done, there is no reason why it can't be done and you haven't given any valid reason why it can't be done.

      --
      Waterfox - a Firefox fork with legacy extension support, security updates and better privacy by default.
    54. Re:HDD endurance? by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      Thanks for sharing your inability to read your own link.

  2. They're leaving money on the table... by RealGene · · Score: 3, Insightful

    However, the fact that all the drives far exceeded their endurance specifications bodes well for the endurance of consumer-grade SSDs in general.

    No, I think it means that the first ones were over-engineered, and the next generation will meet their stated MTBF number to within 1 standard deviation.

    --
    Mission: To provide products that consume time and energy as entertainingly as permitted by the laws of thermodynamics.
    1. Re:They're leaving money on the table... by what2123 · · Score: 1

      If the MTBF is in hours, then what are they going to determine is an average I/O for an SSD per hour? Since the total amount of data we use is only increasing that means that MTBF will always decrease with your logic. I have to say that is quite the opposite in most electronics even if they are being produced at cheaper rate.

    2. Re: They're leaving money on the table... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Either way, telling us the number of samples is too small to accurately determine anything, then extrapolating a happy future for consumers based on the faulty setup seems rather Pollyannaish.

    3. Re:They're leaving money on the table... by RealGene · · Score: 2

      The acronym will be re-jiggered to "Max Transferred Before Failure"

      --
      Mission: To provide products that consume time and energy as entertainingly as permitted by the laws of thermodynamics.
    4. Re: They're leaving money on the table... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But they didn't say the sample was too small to accurately determine anything, only that it's too small to accurately determine data for specific drive models.

      Their claim for a happy future was made for consumer SSD's as a whole, just not specifically for a Kingston HyperX 3K or Samsung 840 Pro.

  3. Most people write far less. by PlusFiveTroll · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Most hard drive I see in consumer and business use write far less than that over their lifetimes. I have a customers hard drive I am copying data from currently. Has 15,147 power on hours, it has only written 1.3TB of data. It's very uncommon to see drives with over 6TB of data written (in the 500GB to 1TB drive range).

    The other client SSD in my computer is a Samsung 830 256GB SSD that I just migrated to a 1TB SSD for a customer. Was used for about a year and a half before they needed a bigger drive. They used Outlook, a number of Autocad applications, lots of project files, a good sized collection of work related photos. The drive has 995GB of writes and is showing no SMART issues.

    Average computer users have nothing to worry about when it comes to wearing a SSD out. Power users might have a problem depending on the nature of their work, but they also get the most benefit from high write speeds and IOPS. Servers, depending on their usage patters could have a problem, I certainly recommend the enterprise style drives that reserve a much larger amount of space.

    1. Re:Most people write far less. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

      However my company found that in testing, the more number of writes to a flash device, the shorter time before the data is leaked out. So after 10,000 writes to the same location, I can read the data a month later with no errors, but at 50,000 writes I start getting errors after about 2 hours. It seems like flash storage is like a bucket of water, each erase pokes a tiny hole in the bucket. After awhile those tiny holes add up and the bucket leaks pretty fast. So long term storage is not as safe as a conventional hard drive.

    2. Re:Most people write far less. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      hmm this is interesting but how do you find the statistics for a drive (on a mac)?

      Thank you

    3. Re:Most people write far less. by Spy+Handler · · Score: 1

      I have a customers hard drive I am copying data from currently. Has 15,147 power on hours, it has only written 1.3TB of data.

      How can you tell? Does the HDD keep track of this info somewhere in the firmware?

    4. Re:Most people write far less. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It's from S.M.A.R.T.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C...

      this has mac version too
      http://www.smartmontools.org/w...

      or you can pay up to have graphics.

    5. Re:Most people write far less. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It's called S.M.A.R.T...

    6. Re:Most people write far less. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you do 10000 writes to a location you should at least use a eMLC, or a SLC based drive. eMLC and enterprise drives in general have tested data retention times of a month, not a year like in the consumer drives.

    7. Re:Most people write far less. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most hard drive I see in consumer and business use write far less than that over their lifetimes. I have a customers hard drive I am copying data from currently. Has 15,147 power on hours, it has only written 1.3TB of data. It's very uncommon to see drives with over 6TB of data written (in the 500GB to 1TB drive range).

      The other client SSD in my computer is a Samsung 830 256GB SSD that I just migrated to a 1TB SSD for a customer. Was used for about a year and a half before they needed a bigger drive. They used Outlook, a number of Autocad applications, lots of project files, a good sized collection of work related photos. The drive has 995GB of writes and is showing no SMART issues.

      Average computer users have nothing to worry about when it comes to wearing a SSD out. Power users might have a problem depending on the nature of their work, but they also get the most benefit from high write speeds and IOPS. Servers, depending on their usage patters could have a problem, I certainly recommend the enterprise style drives that reserve a much larger amount of space.

      Well, not sure about you, but I do have a Samsung 840 Pro since 9 December 2013, on a Mac Mini, and it's got (Samsung Magician reports this) 4.92 TB written :)

      And I am a programmer & power user, but I haven't used virtual machines on it.

    8. Re:Most people write far less. by PlusFiveTroll · · Score: 1

      As the other AC said, a tool that shows SMART data for your OS. That said, some drives do not show LBA information. Some really sucky drives do not give accurate SMART information at all, though in general a drive in a Mac should.

    9. Re:Most people write far less. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Use smartmontools or another SMART program. If you are using smartmontools, execute smartctl --scan and it will spit out device names. Then run smartctl -A device-name and it will usually tell you. It has other useful command as well like -a -t -c etc.

    10. Re:Most people write far less. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Was this raw writes to a flash chip or through a storage interface like sata/sas/etc.?
      If it was the latter then that is a very disappointing wear-levelling algorithm. That scenario shouldn't have to be a concern.

    11. Re:Most people write far less. by PlusFiveTroll · · Score: 1

      >And I am a programmer

      Depending how big of projects you compile, some of them really hit the drive pretty hard with small writes. That said, it would take 20 years to write 100TB, which even the crappy drives wrote before seeing issues at your current usage, and no one expect spinning disks to last that long.

      I have a 840 EVO 256GB myself. On Windows use of the RAPID mode can reduce the number of writes (greatly reducing write amplification), I don't know if OSX provides anything like that. At 220 days of usage I currently have 1.5TB of writes. That said, my Steam library is on a 1TB disk, mostly because I have around 700GB of games.

    12. Re:Most people write far less. by TeknoHog · · Score: 1

      Servers, depending on their usage platters could have a problem

      FTFY.

      --
      Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
    13. Re:Most people write far less. by jeffmeden · · Score: 3

      However my company found that in testing, the more number of writes to a flash device, the shorter time before the data is leaked out. So after 10,000 writes to the same location, I can read the data a month later with no errors, but at 50,000 writes I start getting errors after about 2 hours. It seems like flash storage is like a bucket of water, each erase pokes a tiny hole in the bucket. After awhile those tiny holes add up and the bucket leaks pretty fast. So long term storage is not as safe as a conventional hard drive.

      Wear leveling will prevent any cell from getting even close to that. The article is in reference to the wonder of SSDs getting over 2,000,000GB of writes across 240GB of flash. That's 8,300 erase cycles in what is certainly considered an "Extreme" scenario. In consumer desktop usage almost no one will pass the 1,000 mark, and most will stay below the 500 mark before they scrap their PC for a new one.

    14. Re:Most people write far less. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My Win7 box confirms your experience.
      Almost exactly 1 year on the Samsung 840 Pro, 3.9 TB of writes.
      I am averaging about 10G/day.

      It will outlast Win7 which goes end of life in 2019 and most mechanical drives.

    15. Re:Most people write far less. by short · · Score: 1

      Programmer, SSD for 3 years on Linux, 27TB written (160GB SSD).

    16. Re:Most people write far less. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You expect us to believe that Outlook AND Windows fit on 256GB? Bullshit.

    17. Re:Most people write far less. by swb · · Score: 1

      What's the math to be applied to LBAs? How big is an LBA? A 512 byte sector?

      My nearly 4 year old Samsung shows just under 2 TB written if I multiply the SMART-provided Total LBAs written against a 512 byte block.

    18. Re:Most people write far less. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thanks guys. I was hoping that System Information would have that, but I guess I'll have to look for a 3rd party tool.

    19. Re:Most people write far less. by Bengie · · Score: 2

      With modern SSD wear leveling, sequential reads aren't sequential. They remap LBA sectors around to free logical blocks within an erase block. Even if you constantly wrote 1 4KB block of data to the exact same LBA constantly until the drive wore out, it would be fairly uniformly wear leveled, even if the rest of the harddrive is filled with data.

    20. Re:Most people write far less. by unrtst · · Score: 1

      What's the math to be applied to LBAs? How big is an LBA? A 512 byte sector?

      My nearly 4 year old Samsung shows just under 2 TB written if I multiply the SMART-provided Total LBAs written against a 512 byte block.

      Correct.
      Though there could be differences depending on the model of drive you have, it's very likely 512B LBAs:
      http://www.samsung.com/global/...

      Since you said you have a samsung, you can run the Samsung Magician 4.0 and it'll do the conversions for you (assuming you're running Windows or Mac; AFAIK, Magician isn't available for Linux).

  4. Random failures by MobyDisk · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Great, so now we just need to fix the sudden random failures where the drive completely fails but it is 6 months old and showed no signs of degradation. A coworker of mine just had that happen with a Crucial SSD.

    1. Re:Random failures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you happen to know which brand of Crucial SSD it was?

    2. Re:Random failures by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 3, Informative

      Great, so now we just need to fix the sudden random failures where the drive completely fails but it is 6 months old and showed no signs of degradation.

      Just counted - the stack on my workbench of completely dead SSD's is 13. I think I've seen one hard drive ever go completely dead. I literally don't understand how the vendors think they can get away with such junk on SSD controllers. I know flash will fail, but that's no reason to hang dead on the SATA bus and not talk to anybody. Admit defeat by SMART and move on.

      I don't always use SSD's for journals, but when I do they're in a RAID configuration. Stay speedy, my friends.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    3. Re:Random failures by Rectal+Prolapse · · Score: 1

      Was it a Crucial M4? If so, maybe it hit that firmware bug where it craps out after a few thousand hours? There is a firmware update to fix it.

    4. Re:Random failures by PlusFiveTroll · · Score: 1

      In the shop I work out of we have stacks of hundreds of hard drives with bad sectors and a large number that are just dead. We see very few dead SSDs, but we only use Samsung or Intel cards. Don't use anything else.

    5. Re:Random failures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wonder how much power supply quality plays a role in SSD reliability? Assuming there isn't any regulation past the power connector (just a decoupling cap?), how well does the memory and controller circuitry handle voltage variations if the supply rails drop/spike.

    6. Re:Random failures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the manufacturer won't replace them under warranty, open them up, and look at the controller chip. I doubt a single Sandforce will be there.

    7. Re:Random failures by Bengie · · Score: 1

      You must be new to computers, the IBM DeathStar had similar problems. Just like mechanical HDs, there's a few bad batches.

    8. Re:Random failures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They're are many reasons to have a backup process. Drive failure is but one card of that deck.

    9. Re:Random failures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem with SSDs is that the data is not written linearly. They have a kind of internal filesystem to map the visible sectors to the flash memory. If that filesystem gets corrupted, the current strategy seems to be to just give up and play dead. Maybe in the future, the manufacturers will switch to a read only mode instead, hopefully with only small amounts of corrupted data.

    10. Re:Random failures by Bengie · · Score: 1

      The problem with SSDs is that the data is not written linearly. They have a kind of internal filesystem to map the visible sectors to the flash memory.

      Newer mechanical HDs are always starting to do this and the SMR drives do this extensively, even more so than SSDs.

    11. Re:Random failures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Great, so now we just need to fix the sudden random failures where the drive completely fails but it is 6 months old and showed no signs of degradation.

      Just counted - the stack on my workbench of completely dead SSD's is 13. I think I've seen one hard drive ever go completely dead. I literally don't understand how the vendors think they can get away with such junk on SSD controllers. I know flash will fail, but that's no reason to hang dead on the SATA bus and not talk to anybody. Admit defeat by SMART and move on.

      I don't always use SSD's for journals, but when I do they're in a RAID configuration. Stay speedy, my friends.

      Can you list the make and models of the ones that died? That might be useful info for the rest of us.

    12. Re:Random failures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Same here, the company I worked for serviced the computers for the local board of education and the local university.

      The number of bad hard drives was/is unbelievable. I am sure that the janitors are dragging the desks while the computers are running, some machines show signs of being dropped as well. Students don't own the machines and just don't take care of them too.

      Those were not laptops, the laptops have broken screens, broken USB ports, messed up keyboards and yes dead hard drives too.

      If people take care, most hard drives will last a long time, but from what I have seen the general public does not take care of their machines and are willing to move/shake/drop machines with hard drives then wonder why they stopped working.

      SSDs are very good when it comes to vibrations.

    13. Re:Random failures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wonder about that myself. There are a number of people who insist that SSDs always die for them, but they are small minority.

      I always thought that these people should check their power supply for how clean the power was.

      Back in the bad old days when I used hard drives my last desktop computer was giving read error on multiple hard drives, I knew all those drives(4) could not be bad and found after I upgraded the power supply the problems went away.

      Since then I always wonder about the P/S when people claim SSD problems.

    14. Re:Random failures by MobyDisk · · Score: 1

      The SSDs will have lots of regulation on-board because there are very specific voltages required to read and write to Flash memory. They should be just as reliable as USB flash drives and RAM and CPU and video cards and other electrically-sensitive things that require particular voltages to operate.

    15. Re:Random failures by toddestan · · Score: 1

      As maligned as the DeathStars were, I never lost any data on them. They always gave signs of theilr impending doom, and lasted long enough to copy the data off of them. In comparison, I've seen enough SSDs suddenly just stop working, and anything stored on them is simply gone.

  5. Drives obsolete by the time the test completes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Unfortunately these tests don't say much about the drives you can buy NOW, and write endurance in consumer drives is probably getting worse as geometry shrinks and relentless price pressure causes corners to be cut. It's good that the Samsung 840 Pro is holding up so well (its predecessor the 830 was also ridiculously durable) but it's now replaced by the 850 Pro which uses radical new technology (stacked chips). The Intel 320 was also very durable so the failure of the 335 doesn't bode very well for the idea that newer models should hold up better than older ones.

    Write wear isn't everything anyway. Another thing to test is whether the drive can brick if the power fails while the drive is writing. Better drives have capacitors to deal with this event. Consumer drives lack them and can lose data or fail unrecoverably.

    1. Re:Drives obsolete by the time the test completes by nabsltd · · Score: 2

      It's good that the Samsung 840 Pro is holding up so well (its predecessor the 830 was also ridiculously durable) but it's now replaced by the 850 Pro which uses radical new technology (stacked chips).

      I suspect the 10 year warranty for the 850 Pro is a good indicator of how long Samsung expects it to last compared to the 840 Pro (which has a 5 year warranty).

    2. Re:Drives obsolete by the time the test completes by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 1

      Write wear isn't everything anyway. Another thing to test is whether the drive can brick if the power fails while the drive is writing. Better drives have capacitors to deal with this event. Consumer drives lack them and can lose data or fail unrecoverably.

      This is one reason to check that the computer you're using includes capacitors to deal with this event -- so you can use consumer drives and not have to worry about whether they've got built-in protection circuitry.

    3. Re:Drives obsolete by the time the test completes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What I noticed is the fact you are skipping over the fact that even while the Intel failed early compared to the drive still under tests, the Intel 335 has still last well beyond the original rated life.

      THAT IS THE IMPORTANT FACT!

      All the drives will last longer than the write-life the manufacturer states when you buy it. And that is the stat you should use to plan your future use.

      All these drive deliver what you paid for and more.

  6. Do you mean which MODEL?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because the brand is Crucial

    1. Re:Do you mean which MODEL?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apologies.

      Either way, I think it's time to ramp up the disk cloning schedule

    2. Re:Do you mean which MODEL?? by Qzukk · · Score: 2

      It's crucial that we find out!

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
  7. Even power users don't have much to worry about by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 2

    I write a lot more to my SSDs than most do because of lost of application installs, playing with audio, etc, etc. 6TB to date, drive was purchased about 20 months ago. Ok well assuming I maintain that rate of writing (3.6TB/year) it would be 13 years before I'd hit 50 TB of writes, on a 512GB drive which can probably take 1PB or more.

    Even if you hit it harder than the norm, you still don't hit it that hard. It really has to be used for something like database access or a file server or the like before endurance becomes an issue.

    1. Re:Even power users don't have much to worry about by nabsltd · · Score: 2

      It really has to be used for something like database access or a file server or the like before endurance becomes an issue.

      Even that isn't enough, because the drives in the test are being written essentially 24/7 (with just a little time off for the retention tests), and the drives remaining have been at it for 15 months.

      You have to have an insanely busy database or file server to never have any time off from writes.

  8. Any criticism? by jones_supa · · Score: 1

    I think this has been a fantastic experiment, but do you still have any criticism regarding their test methodologies? Can we trust the results? For example, would we get different results if we leave the same data sitting on the drives for a longer time? Anything else that they are possibly not taking into account?

    1. Re:Any criticism? by Kardos · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The only weakness is that it needs to be repeated on newer ssds as they hit the market. The results of this test are relevant for drives released back when the experiment started in 2013, less so for drives released now and even less so for future drives. As the manufacturers realise that the drives are lasting much longer than they are specified to, they'll decide they are overengineered and rework them to wear out quicker. Aside from the obvious cost cutting benefit, it also keeps the market segmented in various grades between "low end consumer ssds" and "high end enterprise ssds".

    2. Re:Any criticism? by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 1

      Or, in the better case, they increase the warranty (and the price) and boast with the warranty.

      --
      Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
  9. Don't put too much stock in this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I think the idea is neat, but nothing meaningful can be said by sampling _one_ of each drive.

    Moreover, from what I understand about flash, the more writes you make to a cell, the more quickly those bits tend to rot when left alone.

    So being able to overwrite again and again and again isn't particularly important if those worn cells would just forget their contents over a few hours, days, weeks, etc.

    I'd much rather have a drive that can take a moderate write load and hold on to my data than an Alzheimer's disk that can take endless information in for short periods of time, but would forget it an hour later.

    1. Re:Don't put too much stock in this... by mlts · · Score: 1

      Maybe a tiering system would be useful. I've seen some drive arrays that use SSD for caching. So, a SSD that can take a lot of info and forgets it after a month or two can be good enough in this case, assuming enough ECC to realize the cache data is damaged and to fetch from the spinning platters the bits needed to complete the read. Another example of this would be a write cache on a HBA. That way, the machine could send writes to the SSD cache, the HBA tells the machine the write is complete and then feeds the SAN a relatively easy sequential write to take care of.

      On the other end of the spectrum, we really need archival grade media. No hard drives are built to hold data for 20 years, and SSDs will have the electrons wave farewell never to return if left alone for a long time. The only media that I could say could go 20 years sitting on a shelf would be LTO tape, or a well designed optical format.

  10. from experience, SSD failures not from wear by BLToday · · Score: 3, Interesting

    From my experiences, most of SSD failures come from dead controllers and not wear. Or bad firmware, I'm looking at you Crucial and your 5000 hour bug. Also your weird incompatibles on your MX100 series.

    1. Re:from experience, SSD failures not from wear by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've seen it more related to flash. As the die gets smaller the worst it gets.

  11. Data retention ?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes but there is an inverse relationship between number of writes and data retention. Try reading the data in a few months ... then you'll see the errors!

  12. Intel 335 Series by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Where do they get Intel 335 Series? It's no longer manufactured. Couldn't they find something more up to date?

  13. Exactly - does this test even read back ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Test is meaningless unless it reads back the data and verifies with checksum *after* the internal buffer no longer has the written data. eg. write whole drive once, read back once and see if checksum matches for all the bytes the drive can fit.

    1. Re:Exactly - does this test even read back ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Read the OP. They did do this.

  14. Invalid tests... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Unfortunately, their test are pretty much pointless. To quote their original article, "Anvil's endurance test writes files sequentially".

    The problem with most consumer flash drives (at least, cMLC drives) is not primarily one of flash endurance, but one of write amplification that causes the endurance of the drive to be significantly less than the underlying flash.

    Write amplification occurs when data is overwritten, especially when the drive is nearer to full. Sequential writes will never cause this to occur, so the endurance levels that they are seeing in these tests is basically pointless for all but a very, very limited use case.

  15. how many? by SuperDre · · Score: 1

    How many units of each type did they test? because if they only tested one of each, you cannot make any assumptions about and can't even call it a good test.. I've seen so many different results with the same HDD's.. Or even with SDD's, where my SDD died after a couple of months, but the one of my collegue is still plowing away after 2 years (SDD's from the same batch)..

    1. Re:how many? by jones_supa · · Score: 2

      It wasn't even meant to be a scientifically correct study but just a fun MythBusters-type experiment.

  16. Flash endurance by Art+Deco · · Score: 2

    A few years back I ran my own test. I had an unused 16 MB Canon SD card that came with one of my digital cameras (I bought a much larger one with the camera). Since it was unused I decided to see how long it would last. I wrote a script that repeatedly overwrote the entire card with one of several files of random data then checked it against the original. Each time overwriting, reading, and verifying the card took about 17 seconds. I had my first error after 120K writes. After that I got errors every 20K to 60K writes. Someone suggested I reformat the card and afterword it came out 114K smaller so I guess it marked some cells as bad. After this it went the longest stretch without an error, from write 1.9M to 2.5M without a single error. From this test one might conclude that there are a small number of frail cells that fail early on and the rest more robust that just keep going.

  17. Misleading!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Of course this is the case: the entire purpose and design of the SSD controller that surrounds the actual Flash memory is to avoid writing/erasing the Flash chips precisely because Flash has limited endurance cycles. So instead the SSD controller operates as a cache and optimizer to achieve this.

    Claiming "peta-writes" doesn't mean endurance - it means successful avoidance of endurance!!!