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How the NSA Is Spying On Everyone: More Revelations

The Intercept has published today a story detailing documents that "reveal how the NSA plans to secretly introduce new flaws into communication systems so that they can be tapped into—a controversial tactic that security experts say could be exposing the general population to criminal hackers." The documents also describe a years-long effort, aimed at hostile and friendly regimes, from the point of view of the U.S. government, to break the security of various countries' communications networks. "Codenamed AURORAGOLD, the covert operation has monitored the content of messages sent and received by more than 1,200 email accounts associated with major cellphone network operators, intercepting confidential company planning papers that help the NSA hack into phone networks."

148 comments

  1. Standard M.O. by entertainment · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Is anyone surprised?

    1. Re:Standard M.O. by spacepimp · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Surprised? No... Concerned that US Citizens are being illegally monitored in their communications by the NSA? Yes... This is illegal monitoring of people who pose no threat to the US or their citizens. Monitoring them without a valid warrant with a description of what the threat they pose is is illegal.

    2. Re:Standard M.O. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      https://www.google.com/#newwindow=1&q=legacy+of+ashes+the+history+of+the+cia

      A good read, regardless of the trashing the CIA gave it.

    3. Re:Standard M.O. by AdamThor · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I guess you can call it illegal, but that sort of implies that there is some sort of authority who can take authority action against transgressors. From the NSA to local police (illegal chokehold, anyone?) the security mechanism in America is without responsible civilian oversight. =(

      --
      -- "Oh. This guy again."
    4. Re:Standard M.O. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Technically the people of the United States have the authority. It's such a shame that the government has been able to sucker the less intelligent masses into giving up liberty under the "threat" of terrorism.

      My solution was simply to move out of the USA. I've been an ex-pat going on a decade now and couldn't be happier. I plan to renounce my US citizenship this coming year.

    5. Re:Standard M.O. by spacepimp · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There are plenty of people who can take authority. They can defund the NSA. They can disband the NSA. They can add new layers of oversight to the NSA> Just because they haven't doesn't mean there is no one who can./ Remember they did defund the TIA in early 2000's... Then they allowed it to side step and rename itself and begin operating anew. I think legally at this point, if defunded to resume operation under a new name would be seen as the complete refusal to operate within the charters it was held to.

    6. Re:Standard M.O. by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      Only if you are stating that President Obama is irresponsible. He could change all this with executive orders but doesn't.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    7. Re:Standard M.O. by mspohr · · Score: 1

      It's not just US citizens. If you RTFA you'll see that it's everybody, everywhere.

      --
      I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
    8. Re:Standard M.O. by AdamThor · · Score: 3, Interesting

      "Only if you are stating that President Obama is irresponsible."

      As far as the President goes, there are 3 options that I see:
      - President Obama may be irresponsible for allowing this level of intrusive surveillance.
      - President Obama may not actually have the ability to change this - he may feel his hands are tied. I'm sure there are lots of things he'd like to do.
      - President Obama may be responsible, and have control over the agency, but his positions and responsibilities may no longer be purely civilian.

      And of course, Obama only has control over the fed. Police killing people and not being held responsible happens at a local level. The failure to hold the security apparatus responsible seems larger than a single agency or it's nominal overseer.

      --
      -- "Oh. This guy again."
    9. Re:Standard M.O. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you are referring to the recent case in New York when you say "illegal chokehold", then you are incorrectly using the term illegal. As far as I know the chokehold was against precinct rules, but not against the law. The chokehold was found to have caused the man's death, but a grand jury determined that the officer responsible did not break the law.
      What the cop did to that man was wrong and an excessive use of force. Wheather or not it is illegal just clouds the issue of the inappropriate use of police force. Don't make the mistake of portraying the issue as illegal=wrong and legal=right because those in power will win.

    10. Re: Standard M.O. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Implying posting as anonymous gives any sort of reputation points or benefit to lieing.

    11. Re:Standard M.O. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, I understand that the NSA spies on everyone, but living outside of the USA limits their power over me.

      Renunciation of my US citizen is a REQUIREMENT for me gain citizenship in the country I have been living in for the past ten years, though I would still do it even if it weren't.

    12. Re:Standard M.O. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My solution was simply to move out of the USA. I've been an ex-pat going on a decade now and couldn't be happier. I plan to renounce my US citizenship this coming year.

      Where did you move to?

    13. Re:Standard M.O. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Czech Republic.

    14. Re:Standard M.O. by pigoon · · Score: 1

      Please pat yourself on the back some more.

    15. Re:Standard M.O. by NoKaOi · · Score: 1

      I guess you can call it illegal, but that sort of implies that there is some sort of authority who can take authority action against transgressors.

      There is an authority who can take action, the problem is that they don't. It's pretty much the reason the Supreme Court exists.

    16. Re:Standard M.O. by jafac · · Score: 1

      This is because America is without responsible civilians. Or non-civilians, for that matter.

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
    17. Re:Standard M.O. by QRDeNameland · · Score: 2

      Option 4: NSA has a surveillance tape of him with a Kenyan Muslim sheep.

      --
      Momentarily, the need for the construction of new light will no longer exist.
    18. Re:Standard M.O. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whatever, executive orders are for important things like helping illegal immigrants.

    19. Re:Standard M.O. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My solution was simply to move out of the USA. I've been an ex-pat going on a decade now and couldn't be happier. I plan to renounce my US citizenship this coming year.

      And this will protect you from the NSA how?

    20. Re:Standard M.O. by Immerman · · Score: 1

      The NSA doesn't actually care about non-aggressive foreigners? Same reason I don't care that China, Russia, etc. are probably monitoring me here in the US.

      All such agencies are basically in the business of expanding their power and defending the status quo - in practice that means targetting foreign aggressors and civically active citizens. And while they can legally "disappear" citizens with no repercussions, they have to be willing to risk an international incident to get at a foreigner.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    21. Re: Standard M.O. by xmundt · · Score: 1

      The Grand Jury does not make a determination of the defendant's guilt or innocence. All it does is determine if they should go to trial. Since too often they are the prosecutor's hand puppets, the NYC and Ferguson Grand Jury results simply mean that the Prosecutor's office decided to give the cops a pass. If you think it was because they were not guilty....well...faith, even misguided, is a wonderful thing to see

      --
      YAB - http://blog.beemandave.com/
    22. Re:Standard M.O. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hope you have $2350

      http://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=14/12/03/0428221 (US Renunciation Fee Rises to $2350)

    23. Re:Standard M.O. by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      The NSA should not necessarily be defended but most logically broken into two distinct, separate and competing organisation. One for defence and once for offence. That does mean the defensive NSA does in fact target and seek to prosecute the offensive NSA and wins promotions, political advantage and funding by doing so. Basically publicly being the good guys and the bad NSA filling full of psychopaths waiting to be busted for breaking laws. That is the check and balance. Until it is split it will continue to spiral out of control to everyone's detriment, basically being a global enemy.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    24. Re:Standard M.O. by dryeo · · Score: 1

      I thought that President Jackson put them in their place some time back? Something about who had an army and the right of the President to do genocide IIRC.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    25. Re:Standard M.O. by LessThanObvious · · Score: 1

      I like the phrase - "The loss of liberty is worse than the threat of terror." I think it would make a nice T-Shirt. Just curious, isn't leaving the U.S. because our democracy is threatened the opposite of patriotism?

    26. Re:Standard M.O. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      US Citizens?! hell - through 5 eyes a bunch of other countries too have access to data.

    27. Re: Standard M.O. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "the NYC and Ferguson Grand Jury results" - are totally different situations. How can you treat them as equivalent? That demonstrates a profound lack of analyses.

    28. Re:Standard M.O. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      isn't leaving the U.S. because our democracy is threatened the opposite of patriotism?

      Isn't financially supporting New Democracy the opposite of patriotism?
      (I'm not him, despite sharing the AC name)

    29. Re:Standard M.O. by davester666 · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry, but currently the general population is considered to be a threat to the wealthy and powerful.

      And you aren't permitted to see the warrant being used to monitor your communications, because you might be able to successfully challenge it in court.

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    30. Re:Standard M.O. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, Angela Merkel is known to be extremely agressive.

    31. Re:Standard M.O. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just curious, isn't leaving the U.S. because our democracy is threatened the opposite of patriotism?

      Maybe, but so is paying taxes to a U.S. government that does these things.

    32. Re:Standard M.O. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >Just curious, isn't leaving the U.S. because our democracy is threatened the opposite of patriotism?

      Is being born somewhere a good reason to be proud? All the stupidest people are born somewhere.

    33. Re:Standard M.O. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At least I did something. You're just sitting around with your thumb up your ass.

    34. Re:Standard M.O. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Patriotism is bigotry. It is no better than racism.

    35. Re:Standard M.O. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why? Is that supposed to be a lot or something? I wouldn't even have residency if I didn't have significantly more than that.

    36. Re:Standard M.O. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The the most ignorant part of GP's assumption is that I wasn't even born in the USA. I didn't grow up in the USA either and only one of my parents is American.

      Patriotism is idiotic. It's a childish attitude, like being in a street gang or something.

    37. Re:Standard M.O. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The EU is much more powerful than the NSA.

    38. Re:Standard M.O. by innerweb · · Score: 1
      This is because America is without responsible civilians. Or non-civilians, for that matter.

      Something about by the people, of the people and for the people. Unfortunately, the people do not truly participate, so that chain never truly starts anymore. As long as people are more focused on who their favorite right/left wing nut job is and less on what does the country need, there is no end to any of this. Just more nut jobs.

      --
      Freud might say that Intelligent Design is religion's ID.
    39. Re:Standard M.O. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "the security mechanism in America is without responsible civilian oversight. =("

      That is so true... even a criminal jury trial, the defense is not allowed to inform the jury of the meaning to jury nullification. When civilians should be given the power to make for a fair judgement in the eyes of their peers, they are denied and tricked into otherwise exercising their rights.

    40. Re:Standard M.O. by Agripa · · Score: 1

      Technically the people of the United States have the authority.

      Since the people of the United States are not represented by the single party with two asses, they lack this authority unless they choose to revolt.

  2. Act of war by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Good thing we're all friends, right? Anybody else would have to see this as an act of war.

  3. Eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ... security experts say could be exposing the general population to criminal hackers.

    I don't get it. The NSA is an organization of criminal hackers, and it's not a question of "could be", the NSA is already doing it. What am I missing?

    1. Re:Eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Brainwashing?

    2. Re:Eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      Killers are killers unless they are waving a flag, then they are heroes, and praised, such as the US military

    3. Re:Eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't underestimate the power of a flag:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEx5G-GOS1k

    4. Re:Eh? by AHuxley · · Score: 0

      Re What am I missing?
      All the contractor funding to place the tame encryption, keep it working and then clean up the networks after events.
      All the new security clearances and new cyber funding? Ex staff and former staff selling their skills globally?
      Staff who worked in friendly nations with an understanding of the networks and tame systems selling their skills globally?
      Once weak encryption and junk telco networks are worked on for a few generations the skill sets become available to other nations, cults, the needs of multinational corporations or anyone with cash.
      State and federal investigations that needs telco support then show up on different databases. If the encryption and standards are low, everybody gets a look in real time. Time to escape.
      The US and UK expects and is set up for the world to just keep on using the same tame, junk standards.
      The rest of the world can revert to other methods. One time pads, number stations and less digital networking.
      What the US and UK are getting could just be generations of digital misinformation. Junk crypto works in both directions :)

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
  4. Call a spade a spade by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Don't muddy the waters by implying that only a specific, "bad-apple" division of government is doing the stalking. It is government that is doing the stalking. The specific division of government (NSA) is utterly irrelevant to the victims. That only matters to the aggressor.

    If it was a private company doing the stalking, you wouldn't say that "Human Resources" is the aggressor and ignore the fact that Human Resources is owned by, funded by, and works for Google. You would state the obvious and say that Google is the aggressor.

    In other words, this is a failure of government, not "the NSA". Government is attacking your basic human right to free association, not "the NSA".

    1. Re:Call a spade a spade by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.

      I'm not even religious, and this quotation came to mind.

    2. Re:Call a spade a spade by hey! · · Score: 4, Insightful

      While this is a good point, one of the questions we should be asking ourselves is to what degree the agency is under effective political control. For many years the FBI wasn't because it had the goods on everyone.

      It makes a difference whether the actions of the agency are due to the vulnerability of political leaders, the lack of will of political leaders, or the direction of political leaders. Specifically it makes a difference to how to fix the problem.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    3. Re:Call a spade a spade by turp182 · · Score: 2

      I was thinking more along these lines:

      And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

      --
      BlameBillCosby.com
    4. Re:Call a spade a spade by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No, it is not government because the government isn't a monolithic hive mind.

      Sheriff Bob out on the rural I80 isn't attacking my security/privacy. The firefighters aren't attacking my security/privacy. The FDA and BPA aren't. It's a specific branch - the NSA - that is.

      And at that, though I'll be damned if I can find the presentation on youtube, it's not even "the NSA" - there are 3 branches of it. One is tasked with protecting American information/security (which I believe most of us would agree is laudable), one with tracking known enemies, and the third are the sigint "break the security of everything" guys that everyone but them, apparently even outside their branch of the NSA, think are fucking insane.

      In fact, that presentation led me to believe that the actions of this branch which (You might want to sit down and have your smelling salts ready) went insane following 9/11 are more than anything else like HAL: They were handed absurd instructions and have no choice but to carry them out. In this case the instruction was "never again." Well..... never is an awfully long time and an awfully high bar. The only way you can know if anyone, anywhere is planning the next 9/11 is if you're watching everyone, everywhere. Multiple officials inside the NSA brought their concerns over this insane order (and its insane results) forward but were, as we now know, ignored.

      The left hand of the fedgov routinely doesn't know what the right hand is doing, and that's without the right hand actively trying to prevent anyone from knowing what it's doing. But do go on about how the government is a monolithic evil. I'm sure that Senator Wyden, who's been one of the leaders in the charge to stop this bullshit, appreciates your thoughtful and nuanced views of this complex matter.

    5. Re:Call a spade a spade by TubeSteak · · Score: 3, Interesting

      While this is a good point, one of the questions we should be asking ourselves is to what degree the agency is under effective political control. For many years the FBI wasn't because it had the goods on everyone.

      We have three branches of Government and the NSA belongs to the Executive Branch.

      From what we've seen so far, the Legislative branch has simultaneously expanded the NSA's spying powers and been kept in the dark about the scope of the NSA's activities (which prevents meaningful oversight).

      The Judicial branch's oversight of the NSA is something of a mystery.
      We don't know what the NSA tells the FISA court and the FISA court doesn't know what the NSA isn't telling them.
      And pretty much any other judicial cases involving the NSA get shut down with the claim of national security.

      We know for certain that the Executive branch has been issuing classified opinions and directives to give the NSA expansive powers.
      They're under "under effective political control," just not the kind of control that the majority of Americans desire.

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    6. Re:Call a spade a spade by rmstar · · Score: 1

      Where are my modpoints when I need them.

      Thanks AC for that very insightful comment. It's all good but I like especially the end:

      I'm sure that Senator Wyden, who's been one of the leaders in the charge to stop this bullshit, appreciates your thoughtful and nuanced views of this complex matter.

      *outch!*

    7. Re:Call a spade a spade by gumbi+west · · Score: 2

      just not the kind of control that the majority of Americans desire

      I'm not so sure. I think the President (who ever that is) typically wants to keep the country safe and the NSA wants to do the same and they think that they are doing it correctly. I think people want the to be safe and it's tough as the person who is actually President to cut off the means employed by the NSA and hope that you are correct and the ends will still be there knowing that if there were an attack it could easily be your decision that allowed it and all it's nasty side effects.

      All that said, I'd personally like more court involvement. In particular, I see no reason the judicial process couldn't happen in a classified arena. If the lawyers had security clearances and all judges already do, then I see no reason they couldn't just have closed proceedings without juries, but at least have some oversight from an outside body.

      Another viable option for checks would be an Inspector General, covered by the Inspector General act and so truly independent from the agency itself, who could issue reports to the President and Congress.

    8. Re:Call a spade a spade by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > The Judicial branch's oversight of the NSA is something of a mystery.
      > We don't know what the NSA tells the FISA court and the FISA court doesn't
      > know what the NSA isn't telling them.

      s/mystery/clown car/g

      FTFY... no, really. The 'driver' of a clown car turns out to be both NOT driving and to have no clue who is or where they're going.

    9. Re:Call a spade a spade by Reason58 · · Score: 1

      They were handed absurd instructions and have no choice but to carry them out.

      People with those qualifications have the ability to switch jobs in a heartbeat. To say they had no choice but to violate the constitution is absurd. They chose to do this to us.

  5. 3GPP by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 5, Informative

    There is a group called SAGE that writes the crypto protocols for cell phones, DECT phones and other ETSI/ITU/3GPP derived standards.
    They have never knowingly published an unbroken spec. It is widely understood that this group exists to put government sponsored back doors into cordless phones and cell phones.

    I attended a 3GPP meeting since LTE was happening. In it, the guy from SAGE was presenting the new link cipher. 3GPP had asked for something based on AES (so SAGE couldn't pull their A5 shit any more). He presenting AES-CTR for the encryption and AES-CBC-MAC for the integrity field. He added in an off hand way that *the integrity field is truncated to 16 bits*.

    Since I wasn't there to help them, I didn't question this in the meeting but after the meeting I cornered him an asked why he made it 16 bits (because its obviously stupid), and he did a Gallic shrug of his shoulders and said "Zat ees what zey asked for". So at that point I knew the fix was in.

     

    --
    I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    1. Re:3GPP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You should mail the Intercept with that anecdote. It would be a good angle for an investigate story. Maybe that's an open secret amongst people in the know about cell standards, but the general public would do well to have this highlighted.

    2. Re:3GPP by Charliemopps · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yea, but at this point I think we should just give up on this. It's just not possible to protect yourself from a group with the size, clout and finances of the NSA. I think you and I both know, the easiest way for them to solve most of their problems is just have high level people in just about all of these companies on their payroll. If I were a DBA at a company like Google I'd be sitting in the lunchroom wondering which of my colleagues were the NSA guys and which were not.

      The only fix for all of this is to shut down the agency completely. Such a thing cannot exist in a free world. Yes, we'll be less safe from it. But I'll take a 1 in 250,000,000 chance of dieing in a terrorist attack over a 1 in 1 chance of having my mail read any day.

    3. Re:3GPP by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 3

      The crypto standards community was well aware and openly discussing such things at the time. But no one was listening.
      It took Snowden to make people listen.

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    4. Re:3GPP by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 2

      >Yea, but at this point I think we should just give up on this.

      Or maybe if you're in the business of writing security protocols for international standards, hold up your own end by doing a good job.

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    5. Re:3GPP by krakelohm · · Score: 1

      Gallic shrug of his shoulders and said "Zat ees what zey asked for"

      Anyone else read that as Garlic?

      --
      You are all a bunch of idots.
    6. Re:3GPP by morgauxo · · Score: 1

      No you wouldn't, you would know them from the NSA office parties!

    7. Re: 3GPP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Vee von, vee von!
      Vat, vee dee dent von!?
      Dey cheated...

    8. Re:3GPP by JerryLove · · Score: 2

      But I'll take a 1 in 250,000,000 chance of dieing in a terrorist attack over a 1 in 1 chance of having my mail read any day.

      I wonder where that number came from: As an American civillian, my odds of dying specifically in the 9/11 attacks were something like 1/60,000

    9. Re:3GPP by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 1
      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    10. Re: 3GPP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why do average people assume the NSA cares about their personal email? Are average people really that self-centered? "They're watching somebody, so they must be watching me"?

      Seriously, to have reached the "1 in 1 chance of having my mail read" that you speak of - assuming you mean by one of the relatively few people working for the NSA - you must have done something to trigger their algorithms. Do the math: billions of emails sent every day vs. a couple thousand NSA employees.

      If you're speaking of a computer reading your emails... Well, I'd hope you realize that happens anyway. If you use corporate email then your emails are, at minimum, saved in the corporate archives. If you use a free online email service then your emails are data mined. And so on...

    11. Re: 3GPP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      There is a difference between "a computer reading your emails" as a matter of course of delivery over the network and "a computer reading your email" as an infected backbone server harvesting the communications of an entire population on behalf of a rogue American government agency. Whether or not a "human" reads your email is irrevelevant.

      And yes, the NSA does care about "average people" and their online activities -- if they did not, then how could they possibly be able to identify what a non-average person looks like? They must obviously have a normal defined somewhere which they update periodically via -- you guessed it -- "average people" communications.

    12. Re:3GPP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      But I'll take a 1 in 250,000,000 chance of dieing in a terrorist attack over a 1 in 1 chance of having my mail read any day.

      I wonder where that number came from: As an American civillian, my odds of dying specifically in the 9/11 attacks were something like 1/60,000

      And your odds of dying in a car crash are even higher.

      So did you quit driving yet, asshole ?

    13. Re:3GPP by trigeek · · Score: 1

      More like 1 in 105,000. Still extremely low.

      --
      Sometimes I doubt your committment to SparkleMotion!
    14. Re:3GPP by HBI · · Score: 5, Informative

      No they weren't.

      Total US population in 2000 Census: 281421906. Total US-origin casualty count for 9-11: 2604. 1 death in 108072.93.
      Total US population estimate 2013: 313914000 Total motor vehicle fatalities: 33561. 1 death in 9353.5354.

      So you have 10 times the likelihood of dying in a car wreck every year than the worst year ever for terrorism. That's worth giving up all our rights for.

      --
      HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
    15. Re:3GPP by JerryLove · · Score: 1

      There's a reason I said "something like". I was making an approximation from old memory, I used 300 million and 5,000.

      And 1/108,072 is certainly "something like" 1/60,000 when compared to 1/250,000,000 that I was responding to. At least I was not 3 orders of magnitude off as was the person I responded to.

      So you have 10 times the likelihood of dying in a car wreck every year than the worst year ever for terrorism. That's worth giving up all our rights for.

      You correct me for a (correct order of magnitude) approximation and then respond with hyperbole.

      I agree that's not worth giving up all our rights.

      I remind you that "we" have not given up all of our rights (I can still vote, as an example).

      I agree, however, that the reaction has been inappropriate to the danger.

      I remind you that I never said otherwise. I just pointed out a rediculous number.

    16. Re:3GPP by Charliemopps · · Score: 1

      Sorry, I got an extra 0 in there. It's 1 in 25 million.
      Google it, there's quite a few stories on the subject.

      It's a pretty subjective number.
      What are the chances of anyone in the world dieing in a terrorist attack? I think that's where you got your number... But this include, for example, Israel and Iraq.
      What are the chances for an American? (that's my number and what the NSA is concerned with)
      But if you check... that's for all Americans, no matter what even if they went to Afghanistan and hung out in Kabul.
      If you exclude people that traveled to clearly unsecured countries, your chances of dieing in a terrorist attack approach null.
      If you live in Idaho, don't travel to newyork, and aren't in the military, you've absolutely nothing to worry about.

    17. Re:3GPP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The crypto standards community was well aware and openly discussing such things at the time. But no one was listening.
      It took Snowden to make people listen.

      I don't quite understand that phenomenon. For example, Wired had interviews with former government officials stating that the NSA was doing this, months if not years before Snowden.

      A similar thing happened with the Iraq War, where you had some intelligence officials testifying in congress that there were no WMDs, in the lead-up to the invasion. It was obvious to me what was going on at the time.

      I don't quite understand where that gap in the popular press comes from--that jump from local circles to the general public dialogue. Snowden was just reinforcing what I had already read--he was providing confirmation. It wasn't a new revelation.

    18. Re:3GPP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      More like 1 in 90,000.

      http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=U.S.+population+in+2001+%2F+3200

    19. Re: 3GPP by bmo · · Score: 2

      It matters because without privacy you have no power.

      Everyone has a skeleton. Nobody is perfect. This is about archiving everything and using search technology to create instant dossiers on people who have influence on more than a handful of people. In other words, anyone who wants to effect change will be prevented/discredited.

      It is a direct attack on democracy itself. It is an attack on the public at large.

      Whether it's done by private corporations or the government, the effect is the same. It should be condemned in all cases.

      And it's people like you that give this all a pass. You and your ilk disgust me.

      Good day, sir.

      --
      BMO

    20. Re:3GPP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yea, but at this point I think we should just give up on this. It's just not possible to protect yourself from a group with the size, clout and finances of the NSA.

      If they target you, as an individual, they're you're probably screwed.

      But we're talking about here is "bulk screwing over". The (e.g.) GSM crypto standards should be secure so bulk collection can't be done. If they want to go after you personally then they can perhaps remotely hack your baseband or some such. But we're talking about bulk compromises.

    21. Re:3GPP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      NORAD was called off. NSA warned the authorities who took no action and instead insured the towers for billions, then used the attack to spend trillions.

      Don't expect them to test for explosives or maintain custody of evidence either - they didn't. "terrorists" run our shit now.

    22. Re: 3GPP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "It matters because without privacy you have no power."
      Privacy is not the same as anonymity. Your not allowed to vote without presenting some kind of ID but your privacy kicks in the minute you enter the voting booth to cast your ballet. Anonymity is what people have been advocating for and that is an impossible goal given the current state of the electronic communications. The entire electronic infrastructure has grown like a virus as new technologies have rapidly emerged but security or privacy concerns were not on the top of the list of things to worry about early on and everyone has been playing catch up to shoe horn in better security. Reliable connectivity and improving functionality came first. You want to use GPS services but don't want anyone to be able to discover your location or driving habits. You want to send an e-mail from point A to point B but don't want anyone to know where the e-mail originated or it's destination which is also sort of the backbone of the entire service. You don't want someone tracking your phone calls but your service provider collects every detail of your calls to generate your bill and archives that information in case you call to contest your bill. You demand privacy and then go online and post every detail of your life on Facebook. If you want true privacy you can always renounce and never use any of the technologies that have the potential to store information about you. There is no law mandating you use the Internet just so the government can possibly collect information on you. The government has had the ability to gather and abuse people using their personal data since it's inception. Drivers licenses, property deeds, telephone bills, marriage licenses, income tax forms, and dozens of other sources of information the government could use to identify and track a person. The advent of the computer and interlinked communication networks has just made it easier to do. The NSA does not have the human resources or computer capabilities needed to actively collect and filter a billion or so e-mails sent each day. The resources they do have barely allow them to maintain their foreign operations and dealing known threats. But the big question is if they have all the abilities that they have been attributed to them is there a single instance of them using their god like powers to harm a US citizen? And the US has no allies. Countries proclaiming themselves allies of the US only do so when they need something or want something. Those proclaiming themselves US allies only provide token assistance when group efforts are called for. The NSA owes no apologies for performing it's foreign based activities and someone will have to find a case of the NSA actually abusing their powers domestically. But we can get rid of the NSA as soon Russia, China, Britain, France, Israel, and any other country with a foreign intelligence service does. To expect the US to neuter it's foreign intelligence capabilities just because they have the ability to use those abilities against it's own citizens is nonsense.

    23. Re:3GPP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just like some man had to call Cosby a rapist for anyone would listen to the women. Different, but very similar psychologies at work...

    24. Re:3GPP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In 1941 more Americans died in traffic accidents than died in Pearl Harbor. You ready to let Imperial Japanese infantry stick a bayonet up your backside yet, asshole?

    25. Re: 3GPP by bmo · · Score: 0

      1. Learn how to make a goddamned paragraph.
      2. Your entire argument is wharrgarbl
      3. You've missed the entire point of what I've said.
      4. Fuck off.

      --
      BMO

    26. Re:3GPP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      come on, lets not keep pretending 9/11 was not a false flag.

    27. Re:3GPP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why the heck is the parent post downmodded to -1?

    28. Re: 3GPP by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      How about somebody else who might care about my personal email? The NSA is apparently trying to put security holes into things I use, and there's no guarantee the NSA is the only one who can use them. I believe it extremely unlikely that I'll ever suffer anything concrete from the NSA spying on me, personally, but I have nowhere near the same thin comfort with other organizations.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  6. "criminal hackers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    you mean like the NSA?

  7. Honest question ... by gstoddart · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Do the NSA and the American government believe in any way they should be free from other people spying on them? Or have they completely given up and decided "fuck it, everybody is spying anyway"?

    Because if the NSA or the US government are ever again going to complain about Chinese hackers, or pretty much any form of computer crime, it's the biggest pile of shit imaginable.

    Pretty much America has publicly said "we'll spy on anybody we can", which means you have no right to bitch when others do it you.

    Thanks, assholes, for undermining the rights of everyone on the planet.

    --
    Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    1. Re:Honest question ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

      Power and corruption go hand-in-hand. Anyone who thinks you can ever have power without corruption is naive.

      Anyone who trusts anything any politician says, without independent verification, is also being naive. Politicians lie as easily as breathe.

      T'was always thus, and always thus will be.

    2. Re: Honest question ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      If only dishonesty weren't rewarded like it is... Maybe we wouldn't have so many cheats and liars in our government.

      Don't blame the politicians! Blame the morons who hired them.

    3. Re:Honest question ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Power and corruption go hand-in-hand. Anyone who thinks you can ever have power without corruption is naive.

      Anyone who trusts anything any politician says, without independent verification, is also being naive. Politicians lie as easily as breathe.

      T'was always thus, and always thus will be.

      Sometimes it's not so much them, but the false information they are fed.

    4. Re:Honest question ... by TigerPlish · · Score: 2

      "fuck it, everybody is spying anyway"?

      Everyone has been spying on everyone for at least a couple of centuries.

      The difference is that now, thanks to Snowden, Wikileaks and others, the Average Joe Muggle knows it. And nothing makes more noise than Joe Muggle with only 1/4th of the Big Picture in their brain! A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, yes?

      Nothing's changed, other than public awareness of espionage.

      --
      The "Civilized World" jumped the shark ca. 1973.
    5. Re:Honest question ... by morgauxo · · Score: 1

      "...nothing makes more noise than Joe Muggle with only 1/4th of the Big Picture in their brain..."

      Are you saying that with the whole picture they would be content?

    6. Re:Honest question ... by TigerPlish · · Score: 1

      With the whole picture, they'd probably wish they were never born, or that they could get off the planet quick-like.

      I have this premonition that things are so bad our brains can't even comprehend it.

      --
      The "Civilized World" jumped the shark ca. 1973.
    7. Re:Honest question ... by gstoddart · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Everyone has been spying on everyone for at least a couple of centuries. ... Nothing's changed, other than public awareness of espionage.

      And the scale on which the technology allows this to happen.

      See, before the interwebs and computers, there was no mechanism to tap into an entire country's phone systems.

      So it's pretty much bullshit to say nothing has changed. Technology has allowed the scope of this to be done on an absolutely mind-boggling scale.

      And this sense of self entitlement which says the rest of the world should be giving up our rights in service to the security of Americans ... well, we don't see it that way.

      If your security comes at my expense, I'm afraid I couldn't care less about your damned security.

      Because in doing this crap, America has become the enemy of the liberty of everyone else on the planet.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    8. Re:Honest question ... by stevez67 · · Score: 0

      Everyone has been spying on everyone else in every imaginable way (and some unimaginable ways) since time immemorial. Only the fundamentally naive and those who didn't, and still don't, care thought/think no one was/is spying. Nothing has changed and the world hasn't ended ... but several pseudo-journalists make a decent living fanning the flames of paranoia amongst the conspiracy theorists.

    9. Re:Honest question ... by whoever57 · · Score: 2

      Everyone has been spying on everyone for at least a couple of centuries.

      No, they haven't. Yes, spying has been common for many centuries, but because of the size of the task, it had to be highly targetted. What's changed is the way data is collected which makes almost every person a target for spying.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    10. Re:Honest question ... by Squiggle · · Score: 1

      Everyone has been spying on everyone for at least a couple of centuries.

      ...

      Nothing's changed, other than public awareness of espionage.

      But it is obviously not the same becuse of the scale. The reach and power of the spying have increased dramatically along with the general reach and power of technology. Spying has always happened but the nature of the beast transforms at certain levels of scale and pervasiveness. You could assume that if you "had nothing to hide" in a free society you were generally safe from surveillance because it wasn't worth the effort, that is no longer the case. You could assume that the means of surveillance were effectively limited to nation states, not to anyone with some technical proficiency. Things are not the same.

      --
      Complexity Happens
    11. Re:Honest question ... by AdamThor · · Score: 2

      "Everyone has been spying on everyone for at least a couple of centuries."

      No... people and organizations of means have been spying on other people and organizations that are important to them to an extent dictated by their resources for centuries. It is only recently that it has become practical for a government to spy on _everyone_.

      --
      -- "Oh. This guy again."
    12. Re: Honest question ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Nothing's changed, other than public awareness of espionage."

      Really, nothing...?

      The black budget growth since World Wars I & II, the rise of IBM, global communications and competitive extranational business, nuclear power; the realization that our species is testing Earth's carrying capacity, starting of the 6th major extincion event and causing anthropogenic climate change by unsustainably depleting the natural resources required to build and power the post modern world...

      And you think nothing has changed!?
        -- B Real --

    13. Re:Honest question ... by TigerPlish · · Score: 1

      See, before the interwebs and computers, there was no mechanism to tap into an entire country's phone systems.

      Didn't the English have a room in London where *every*single*wire* coming into the country went through? Weren't they reading each and every cablegram coming in and going out?

      That was in WWI.

      Yes, technology advances make it exponentially easier now, but don't for a second think that en-masse wiretapping is a new thing enabled by the Interwebz.

      --
      The "Civilized World" jumped the shark ca. 1973.
    14. Re:Honest question ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly this. People forget it's not just about national security.

      It's about leverage. Leverage in all manner of political and economic agreements between countries, including those considered trusted allies. The grand dance on the world stage between nations is as cutthroat as any competition and then some.

      And now in the age of immediacy of access to information, it's becoming a broader and more complex game than it used to be, gathering intelligence and sifting gold from muck.

      It was only a matter of time before someone said 'Hey! Let's make a big noisy expose about it and get puh-zaidz, bitches!'

    15. Re:Honest question ... by pr0fessor · · Score: 1

      Anyone can look at publicly accessible weather and traffic cameras and catch their significant other cheating on them, real spies must have even better tools... not to mention all the things Hollywood fantasizes about... I'm not so sure it can be "so bad our brains can't even comprehend it."

    16. Re:Honest question ... by spacepimp · · Score: 1

      You and your premonitions are worth doodelysquat... There are congressional members who are given info to over see the NSA and they are quite vocally denouncing the excesses of the NSA. You might also realize at some point that other members of the NSA are leaking the abuses..If you and your premonitions know more than CIA leaders/NSA leaders and congressional over site members then we are doomed. Luckily your premonitions are worthwhile to anyone but with a brain little enough to think you might have something useful to add.

    17. Re:Honest question ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Everyone has been spying on everyone for at least a couple of centuries.

      Slavery has been going for centuries so nobody should be concerned about it.

    18. Re: Honest question ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The president takes an oath that he/she, "will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.â

      It's not the document that he's pledging to defend, and it's not the citizenery that is constructed by the union of states, it is the federal government. If you accept the premise that just like any other (artificial) person, the foremost mission of any self-organizing system is self-preservation, as well as one of the distinguishing characteristics of governments, that only they can wage war. Adding to the discussion the assertion by Sun Tzu that, "All war is deceit," and treating the resulting menage as an argument which justifies all the deceitful, seemingly anathematic acts constructed out of such logic.

      Where does it get you? To the belief that all such deceit is to be expected by government, notwithstanding the idealistic views you may have been exposed to in elementary school or whether the subsequent use of such deceits was actually resultant in your 'best' interests. (Whatever might be used to define those.)

    19. Re: Honest question ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You assume the people have power. I can tell you REAL POWER lies with the military and rich families.

      Just make some repeated noise and see what happens. Please dont jump off a bridge then.

    20. Re:Honest question ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You refer to Herbert Yardley in the service of U.S. Army and U.S. Navy. He did a Snowden, then, btw.

      Look it up.

      (And yeah, the British are even nastier in this regard)

    21. Re:Honest question ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So just the British then not "everyone" and not "everybody." Even tyrants in the past couldn't spy on all their subjects. You're sticking your head in the ground and pretending everything is fine because you want to.

    22. Re:Honest question ... by whoever57 · · Score: 1

      Didn't the English have a room in London where *every*single*wire* coming into the country went through? Weren't they reading each and every cablegram coming in and going out?

      That was in WWI.

      1. That was a time of real war (not the phony "war on .." BS)

      2. Only a tiny fraction of the population would have sent or received cablegrams.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    23. Re:Honest question ... by cavreader · · Score: 1

      The rest of the world can go pound sand. The rest of the world both collaborates and undermines the US security agencies depending on their own needs. When China ,Russia, and all the other countries of the world fold up their foreign espionage programs aimed at US interests and go home the US can do the same thing, But until that magical day arrives it will continue to be tit for tat when it comes to spying on your so called "friends" and "enemies".

    24. Re:Honest question ... by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      The other difference is that it's so easy to do cheap mass surveillance nowadays. It used to be that, if the police wanted to know where I was going, they'd assign a few officers to keep an eye on me. That meant that they could only keep a few people at a time under surveillance. Nowadays, they can find where everybody's phone is, and with more cameras they can find where everybody's car is.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  8. Re:This will only stop by ganjadude · · Score: 1

    why did you put libertarians in "" and only them?

    --
    have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
  9. Re:This will only stop by CreatureComfort · · Score: 2

    I'm certain that it's because the current Libertarian Party platform has been hijacked by the Fascist Party and bears little to no resemblance to traditional libertarian values, policies, or ideals.

    The Democrats and Republicans, however, have always been under the control of the Fascist Party, so their current actions (ignore the platforms, both parties already do) are consistent with their traditional views. The Greens have no coherent platform and are so inconsequential the Fascists haven't bothered with them.

    --
    "Unheard of means only it's undreamed of yet,
    Impossible means not yet done." ~~ Julia Ecklar
  10. Re:This will only stop by sjames · · Score: 1

    Possibly because none of the people running on the Libertarian ticket today hold to the core beliefs and values of Libertarianism?

  11. Wow by Ubi_NL · · Score: 1

    Glad I'm not in the US!

    oh, wait...

    --

    If an experiment works, something has gone wrong.
  12. Plans to: I see by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

    I think you meant to say "will continue to".

    Oh, and don't trust your burner phones.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  13. The "standard M. O." is not *STANDARD* enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    If you think that NSA would stop at introducing flaws to communication system, think again !

    The flaws in the communication system is but one of the ***MANY*** fields that they have tampered with

    With the advent of IoT, it would be a fucking field day for spooks from NSA --- nothing, and I repeat, NOTHING in our daily lives will escape the watchful eyeballs of NSA

    1. Re:The "standard M. O." is not *STANDARD* enough by ColdWetDog · · Score: 4, Funny

      With the advent of IoT, it would be a fucking field day for spooks from NSA --- nothing, and I repeat, NOTHING in our daily lives will escape the watchful eyeballs of NSA

      So, instead of Freedom Fries, we get Terror Toast?

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
  14. Redundancy by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 1

    "—a controversial tactic that security experts say could be exposing the general population to criminal hackers."

    Well yeah, the article said it was for the NSA.

  15. Re:US Stasi is out of control by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How long before the American people wake up to the fact that they are living in a police state ...
    I think it is time for an unarmed police force in the United States, and a proper attempt at disarming the population

    So, your solution to the US being a police state is to take away guns from the public ?

    How long before YOU wake up to the fact that you are an idiot who is incapable of even
    simple logical thought ?

  16. Re:This will only stop by ganjadude · · Score: 3, Insightful

    not that i disagree per se, but thats pretty much a no true scotsman fallacy no? No party in american politics is 100% to its core. Democrats claim to be for the poor people, yet they keep pushing bills that directly hurt the poor. republicans say they are for limited government, except for military/police, or if you are a woman.

    --
    have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
  17. Codename AURORAGOLD by PPH · · Score: 1

    If codenames are supposed to be assigned randomly, then why don't we see some like WEASELVOMIT?

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
    1. Re:Codename AURORAGOLD by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      It can join Adversary Gold, Goldeneye, Goldenflax, Goldenperch, Goldmine, Goldminer, Goldpoint, Goldvein.
      Silver Vs Gold? Platinum Plus? Alchemist?

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
  18. Re:This will only stop by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    republicans say they are for limited government, except for military/police, or if you are a woman.

    Or gay, or want to grow certain plants, or want to have a little fun in your life, or...

  19. Re:This will only stop by ganjadude · · Score: 1

    i wasnt trying to write a book but yeah, pretty much. I can go on and on about each party if you really want me to but i think everyone gets the point

    --
    have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
  20. SSSSSHHH! by mmell · · Score: 1

    We only publish the names of the failures (and sometimes old, decommissioned systems), so that the public can see that they're really worried about nothing. Wouldn't do to have the little darlings actually know what we know now, would it?

  21. Re:This will only stop by SuperRenaissanceMan · · Score: 1

    So we really should have been voting for the *fourth* candidate all along?!

    --
    Any comment mentioning moderation is automatically Offtopic.
  22. It's not just the NSA (No Sales for Americans). by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The U.S. government is EXTREMELY corrupt.

  23. What if some one discovered said flaw? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Safe to assume they would monitor the exploitable vulnerability and terminate said subject if he was to find it. All to keep it on the down low. Naah that would never happen. I'm just being paranoid here right.

  24. Nothing to see, move along by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is nothing new and has been known for decades. I'm finding this "entitlement" generation of hipster douchebags to be quite annoying with their incessant whining.

    1. Re:Nothing to see, move along by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      this "entitlement" generation of hipster douchebags

      This is the weirdest description of the NSA I've read so far.

  25. Re:US Stasi is out of control by random+coward · · Score: 1

    So I see your starting to notice the paid "opinion shifting" contractors the government has?

  26. AI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    First, they store your emails *forever*. And in 25 years their AI algos might be hunting for "traitors" and flag you because you made some noises in 2014.

    Ai certainly can read ALL emails.

  27. Complex Issue by brunes69 · · Score: 2

    While you are right on one hand, the issue is more complex than this.

    Even in the article itself it talks about how the government is fighting with itself (NIST and the NSA, where NIST's mandate by law is to make sure the government and public are secure and NSA is by law mandated to make sure they are not).

    "The government" is a big thing and the left hand doesn't ALWAYS know what the right hand is doing. The problems arise when the right hand can operate with autonomy so that not only does the left not know what it is doing, but it has no authority to put it in check.

    1. Re:Complex Issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "The government" is a big thing and the left hand doesn't ALWAYS know what the right hand is doing

      Sure, but again, that is utterly irrelevant to the victims, and is only something the aggressor would bring up (to obfuscate the issue). The only fact we need to know, as victims, is that the NSA is funded by government, and wouldn't exist without government. Therefore this is a failure of government and nothing less.

  28. Americans are weak minded by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    hurr durr we have freedums we r #1 in teh werld

  29. Re:This will only stop by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No, you're supposed to be voting for nobody.

    Nobody will keep election promises.
    Nobody will listen to your concerns.
    Nobody will help the poor and unemployed.
    Nobody cares!
    Nobody tells the truth.

  30. The NSA thanks you for your defeatist attitude! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Had the Founding Fathers taken this approach, Britain would have had a compliant colony. Everyone wins!

  31. Hypocrisy by CaTfiSh · · Score: 2

    It's difficult to imagine an entity proclaiming itself as protecting the citizens, all the while removing the protections we've enjoyed as a people all these years.

    Is the NSA so magnanimous that they can be trusted without question with all one's personal day-to-day activities and conversation? Should that even be an option for consideration?

    If you can gain a fairly keen insight into a person from them answering 567 questions on the MMPI-2, what do you suppose could be learned from thousands of posts and emails? This could be performed without human intervention and continuously appended. Perhaps it already is. How about when you toss in personal phone calls?

    No, placing an individual's exploitable frailties and weaknesses in a database for ready use isn't just immoral, it is evil. It is invasion of the psyche, and that the true crux of privacy issues.

  32. Re:This will only stop by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Get over it and get a life.

  33. Re:This will only stop by sjames · · Score: 1

    Not really no true Scotsman since I'm not attempting to invalidate a counter-example, but yes, very few candidates in any party these days seem to hold to the party's supposed values. I suppose it seems more glaring in the Libertarian case since so many Libertarians evangelize like idealists.