Slashdot Mirror


Canada Waives Own Rules, Helps Microsoft Avoid US Visa Problems

Freshly Exhumed writes Citizenship and Immigration Canada has granted an unprecedented exemption to Microsoft that will allow the company to bring in an unspecified number of temporary foreign workers as trainees without first looking for Canadians to fill the jobs. No other company in any other field has been granted such an exemption, and it does not fall within any of the other categories where exemptions are normally given, according to a source familiar with process, effectively creating a new category: the Microsoft Exemption. Microsoft Canada did not immediately respond to questions about the deal, but in an interview earlier this year with Bloomberg Businessweek, Karen Jones, Microsoft's deputy general counsel, said the deal will allow Microsoft to bypass stricter U.S. rules on visas for foreign workers. The entire issue of temporary foreign workers has been as blisteringly hot a topic across Canada as it has been in the USA.

122 comments

  1. Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by iCEBaLM · · Score: 5, Interesting

    We do not have a shortage of CS workers in this country, we have a surplus, and with some provinces having over 10% unemployment rates Harper is seemingly doing everything he can to keep Canadians out of Canadian jobs.

    Fucking neocons.

    1. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by davecb · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I fear the neo-cons want us back in the day of William the Conqueror, where there were Normans and the peasants they owned.

      --
      davecb@spamcop.net
    2. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by lgw · · Score: 1

      We do not have a shortage of CS workers in this country

      What's a "CS worker"? Is that like help desk? IT support is not a career with much of a future, unless you're a packethead or have some other backend specialty.

      But if you meant "software developer", skilled devs are deeply in demand in the US in Silly Valley, and closer in Seattle - come on down, the weather's nice^W sucks less. Heck, I know my company's been hiring aggressively in Canada as well.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    3. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by WarJolt · · Score: 1

      We do not have a shortage of CS workers in this country, we have a surplus

      CS workers is an ambiguous term, since a lot of CS jobs require vastly different skills. Even if your statement is based on real data, I don't think it's telling the whole story. Employment statistics are incredibly easy to spin. Not every CS worker has the skills necessary to work for Microsoft.

      Not being a Canadian myself I don't have any first hand experience. The ictc article from 2013 seems to contradict your statement.
      http://www.ictc-ctic.ca/?p=184...

    4. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You need to define what "skilled" means to you because there seems to be a mismatch between what skilled means to people looking for work and what skilled means to people looking for workers, ahem, by workers I mean passionate people looking for opportunities they're passionate about, such as web button design.

    5. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 2

      "Canadian jobs"? Do Canadians own those jobs?

      The rules are clear - companies are supposed to look at the local talent pool to see if a Canadian can do the job before looking elsewhere -- and this deal blows yet another hole in that regulation.

      The federal government has granted an exemption to Microsoft Canada that will allow the company to bring in an unspecified number of temporary foreign workers to British Columbia as trainees without first looking for Canadians to fill the jobs.

      And when you write:

      (CS workers as the proletariat, ha!)

      Times have changed. Ageism is battling with misogamy as THE issue in IT. You may want to read this

      Software Engineers Will Work One Day for English Majors
      41 Apr 22, 2012 6:00 PM EDT

      April 23 (Bloomberg) -- Which of the following describes careers in software engineering?

      A. Intellectually stimulating and gratifying.
      B. Excellent pay for new bachelor’s degree grads.
      C. A career dead-end.

      The correct answer (with a “your mileage may vary” disclaimer) is: D. All of the above.

      ...

      Many programmers find that their employability starts to decline at about age 35.

      Employers dismiss them as either lacking in up-to-date technical skills -- such as the latest programming-language fad -- or "not suitable for entry level." In other words, either underqualified or overqualified. That doesn’t leave much, does it?

      Statistics show that most software developers are out of the field by age 40.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    6. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The article is bogus. If you'll note, the article was written to attack a study by the TD Bank that debunked the whole "skilled shortage" myth. It was written by an employer lobby group, without citing a single statistic to back it up. As has been pointed out many times since, there is no skills shortage - just a shortage of people willing to work for far less than they used to under the threat of "we'll replace you with someone off-shore/with a visa/whatever".

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    7. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by lgw · · Score: 1

      You need to define what "skilled" means

      Well, what really matters is able to perform well in the job interview. But in theory that's coding skill, design skills, and leadership skills. And not locking up due to nerves during the interview, but it's an imperfect world. With the growth of cloud, it back-end and infrastructure specialties that seem most in demand (as long as you think at scale).

      there seems to be a mismatch between what skilled means to people looking for work and what skilled means to people looking for workers, ahem, by workers I mean passionate people looking for opportunities they're passionate about, such as web button design.

      Indeed, you hit the nail right on the ... button.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    8. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by ILongForDarkness · · Score: 1

      Canadians own the land and infrastructure that MS wants to use because it is close to Redmond and not as limited for immigration. It seems only reasonable if MS wants to hire thousands of people and base them out of Vancouver or whatever that Canadians should at least get a shot at those jobs. Canada doesn't need to create jobs for Indians or whatever. If we need immigrants to fill jobs we can't with the local labor supply that is one thing, but to create situations that are pretty much by designed to have non-Canadian workers brought in to Canada to fill jobs for an US company because the US company can't get their own government to allow them to bring them in is an entirely different thing.

      That said at least for now it sounds like it is meant for training not for doing "real work". It does seem kind of silly to expect Canadians to fill the trainee spots for what will end up being say a technical sales position in the Philippines. By it's nature Filipino's are better suited for that position but might need to go elsewhere to get up to speed. So my only remaining problem with the situation is when people are based out of Canada but for the sole purpose of being able to travel a couple times a month over to the "real" office. From my understanding that is a lot of what MS does in Vancouver. They'd have you in Redmond full time if they could but they can't so instead they get you through Canada's easy immigration but then try to get you to come across the border as often as you can without losing residency.

    9. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by lgw · · Score: 1

      If you're not ever more in demand as you gather more years of skill, perhaps you've let your skills grow stale (thinking "the cloud" isn't important is the new thinking "the internet" isn't important), or perhaps you have 1 year of experience 20 times, instead of 20 years of growth.

      Many programmers find that their employability starts to decline at about age 35.

      In my early 30s, I still had a hard time getting the attention of recruiters, let alone hiring managers. At 45 they won't leave me alone.

      Employers dismiss them as either lacking in up-to-date technical skills -- such as the latest programming-language fad -- or "not suitable for entry level." In other words, either underqualified or overqualified. That doesnâ(TM)t leave much, does it?

      Programming language fads are a thing of front-end "web designers" and app developers. That may be more of a young man's game, though I have a friend my own age who's been quite successful as a champion of the infamous "vanilla JS" framework.

      But for back-end/infrastructure coding, things change more slowly, with a slow drift from C++ to Java over 10 years, and now Python just starting to be taken seriously, maybe in another 10 years it will be important. If you can't keep up with that sort of change, how'd you learn the field in the first place?

      Of course, if you never want to change tools, there's a job as a kernel dev waiting if you can hack it - they still party like it's 1989!

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    10. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by ILongForDarkness · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Agreed. People quickly specialize just like any profession. I think I'm pretty comfortable learning new stuff but my experience and expertise lies with C# and tsql development. So for example going with a recent posting I've looked at: when Google posts a job wanting a javascript and Python coder with 5 years experience with each I'm not that guy. I might be able to talk myself into a shot but it isn't exactly like the recruiter is going to be jumping up and down saying "obviously that guy will figure it out quickly". I need a great resume, have good real world (if not directly related) experience, and solid references to get an interview. Then I need to sell myself like hell to convince the hiring manager to give me a chance. Similar with MS: a lot of people don't have C/C++ experience any more. Some areas of the company that might be fine, others it won't be it all depends on what they want you for.

      Most commenters seemed to be missing the point of the linked article though: these are for trainee positions. MS might be using it as a way to weasle around HB-1 requirements (people getting foreign subsidary experience to get around limits) but it might be that it is a training centre to ultimately send people back to their home countries. It could be hard to scatter around say Office development and have the true experts with the code base mentor junior devs in each of the countries MS operates in. Easier to have them nearby Redmond for a couple years then push them out already relatively up to speed back to India, Ireland, wherever.

      It really depends what MS's intent is with the workers that are "trainees". If they are meant to go back "home" then they probably weren't jobs Canadians were qualified for anyways: language/culture reasons, presumably their home countries have similar hire local first rules, or are otherwise unappealing to most Canadians: earning $10,000 a year in India for example. Similar to H1-B rules if I understand them correctly (I'm Canadian not American) for those workers that MS is allowed to bring in they should mandate that they get comparable wages compared to Canadian workers so as not to drop the market price for "IT" workers in Vancouver down to Indian wage levels. Vancouver is one of the most expensive cities in the world, I moved away from there because of it: earning a programmers salary there is about equivalent to being a college student elsewhere in the country: ie one bedroom apartment and enough money left over at the end of the week to order a pizza. Not my thing, but I guess people make equivalent choices when they live in San Fran or whatever.

    11. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by nnnnnnn · · Score: 1

      You want to block companies from hiring the best workers at the best price? If a Canadian company can't hire the best workers for the best price, a foreign company will. What's your plan for blocking Canadians from buying the best software (which will be foreign if you get your way) at the best price? What about blocking them from buying the best cars, tvs, phones, etc at the best price?

    12. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by Toth · · Score: 1

      Here is what I read:

      Microsoft is building a training center.
      They will be training folks from Canada as well as folks from other countries.

      Microsoft Obscuristan has a young person they would like to train so they send him to the Microsoft training center in Canada.

      They are not bringing them here to sew shirts in a sweatshop (or any IT equivalant) they are bringing them here to train.

      It is a net benefit to Canada. It has a net positive effect on jobs available to Canadians.

      From:
      http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/r...

      They plan to double their current workforce by adding approximately 400 jobs. These positions will include paid internships for Canadian students and long-term employees.

      This program will also bring international employees into 18-month (see note below) rotational training positions.

      Note: Even though Microsoft’s Rotational Program is generally 18 months in duration, a 24-month work permit will be issued so that the employee may continue to perform Rotational Program job duties until they are transitioned by Microsoft into a new position elsewhere.
      Extensions

      No work permit extensions will be issued for this program.

      As for the shortage, it's not that hard to find a person for a level 1 or 2 help desk, staging technician, etc. (it's still not that easy) It is a challenge and takes some time to recruit a level 3+ tech who can visit a site and design a system to improve their productivity or solve a data flow problem.

      Our company pays $1,000 to anyone who refers an applicant for an advertised position. We probably pay a lot more to recruiting firms.

    13. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If you're not ever more in demand as you gather more years of skill, perhaps you've let your skills grow stale (thinking "the cloud" isn't important is the new thinking "the internet" isn't important), or perhaps you have 1 year of experience 20 times, instead of 20 years of growth.

      Neither insults nor denial will change the facts. IT has several problems, including ageism, racism, and misogamy.

      But for back-end/infrastructure coding, things change more slowly, with a slow drift from C++ to Java over 10 years, and now Python just starting to be taken seriously, maybe in another 10 years it will be important. If you can't keep up with that sort of change, how'd you learn the field in the first place?

      Of course, if you never want to change tools, there's a job as a kernel dev waiting if you can hack it - they still party like it's 1989!

      Around 1985, assembler, then c, c++, then clipper and a bunch of other database development tools, then switched to windows for a while, pascal and delphi, switched to linux near the end of the century, the "p" languages (php, python, perl), bash scripting, javascript, java (I was late for Java because it was TOO DARN SLOW). At some point I had to use windows concurrently to do flash development and a few other things.

      So, neither 1 year of experience repeated 20 times, nor a reluctance to try new things - whatever gets the job that I was being paid for done.. That came to an end 3 years ago when my retinas started to bleed too much and I couldn't use a computer until a few months ago. I miss programming for a living, but I don't miss all the garbage that seems to be inextricably entangled with it, such as the "pissing contests", the hoarding of information, the sexism, the insane hours, the constant changing of designs "because someone saw something really neat and we need it too". Besides, the treatment of people with visual (or other) handicaps also generally sucks.

      I guess it's time to end with the almost-obligatory "now get off my lawn, kid" comment, but my heart's not really in it.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    14. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by Stoutlimb · · Score: 1

      This category of foreign labour is subject to much worse working conditions and minimum pay. This is a new way for the 99% to abuse the public (of any country) through legal loopholes and government corruption. Microsoft just went through a firing spree in Canada as well... you connect the dots.

    15. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      You don't...exactly...strike me as somebody who would use marxist economic formulations; but a considerable majority of CS workers are kidding themselves if they think that they map to anything other than 'proletariat' or 'petite bourgeoisie' in a marxist economic formulation.

      Obviously, if you reject such a thing entirely that doesn't much matter; but the point remains in that context.

    16. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The big mega corps in Ireland for their EMEA foothold, employ 160,000+ workers, most of them foreigners - and rising!

    17. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by wiredlogic · · Score: 4, Insightful

      MS might be using it as a way to weasle around HB-1 requirements (people getting foreign subsidary experience to get around limits)

      That's exactly what it is. There's no point in sugar coating it with the presumption of that they're trying to help out the little guy. This is all part of the orchestrated plan by the elites to create an oversupply of labor with foreign workers and drive wages down. Their proximity to Vancouver makes this a slam dunk for Microsoft. Why sink money into lobbying for more H1Bs when L1Bs are unlimited and NAFTA greases the bureaucratic wheels.

      --
      I am becoming gerund, destroyer of verbs.
    18. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by lgw · · Score: 1

      Neither insults nor denial will change the facts. IT has several problems, including ageism, racism, and misogamy.

      The insults are an added bonus, but I suggest abandoning "IT", whatever that is (something from the 20th century, like data processing?), and becoming a software developer.

      That came to an end 3 years ago when my retinas started to bleed too much and I couldn't use a computer until a few months ago

      Well, yeah, the onset of blindness would be a real kick in the teeth in most fields, though I suspect a blind developer would do far better than a blind welder.

      the "pissing contests", the hoarding of information, the sexism, the insane hours, the constant changing of designs

      Any of those are such alarming warning signs I'd be changing companies ASAP. That's the gutter of this field (which most of us wind up in one way or another from time to time), not the middle of the road!

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    19. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tech industry.. Doing all it can to keep 2015 engineers stuck with 1995 salaries.

    20. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

      "We do not have a shortage of CS workers in this country, we have a surplus, and with some provinces having over 10% unemployment rates Harper is seemingly doing everything he can to keep Canadians out of Canadian jobs."

      If you think anyone of the parties in government gives a damn about you then you need to learn about the myth of "balance" in capitalist societies

      http://homepages.law.asu.edu/~...

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C...

      Overthrowing governments

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

      http://www.amazon.com/War-Rack...

      "I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil intersts in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested." [p. 10]

      "War is a racket. ...It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives." [p. 23] "The general public shoulders the bill [for war]. This bill renders a horrible accounting. Newly placed gravestones. Mangled bodies. Shattered minds. Broken hearts and homes. Economic instability. Depression and all its attendant miseries. Back-breaking taxation for generations and generations." [p. 24]

      The 9 trillion dollar bank bailout

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

      Libor scandal

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L...

      Rule of law is impossible under capitalism, since the kings of business (he who has the gold makes the rules) get to do whatever they want and the public gets fucked.

      http://williamblum.org/

      So if you want to fight corruption "the traditional way" (electoral politics), you're dead in the water because most people aren't going to give up their deeply felt emotions and aren't very bright. This way of doing things is limited because of the limits of history and the amount of energy it takes to transform the minds of a large population and the fact that the media is co-opted. There are things that can be done but you'd have to be really committed and not a change the world 'faker' like most people are (aka they don't want to risk anything).

      http://therealnews.com/t2/

      You need to know that most people who are voting in electoral politics don't live in reality (that's a sizeable chunk, many millions of people, totally oblivious). The real news is the cure for that. Hang out in places where smart people exist, avoid traditional media mostly and always keep them at arms length.

    21. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      I suggest abandoning "IT", whatever that is (something from the 20th century, like data processing?), and becoming a software developer.

      Software development is part of Information Technology, and it was what I did.

      I suspect a blind developer would do far better than a blind welder.

      Nah - the welder has a union :-) That's something that programmers have needed for years, if not decades, if only to prevent the worst abuses. Sometimes we're our own worst enemies.

      The docs have restored most of my vision in one eye, but the other isn't so good. So the question is, do I really want to spend the time before they go again writing code for some ingrate? The answer is "no."

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    22. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are out of touch. As people move more towards cloud solutions, IT is growing in demand, with a stronger future than ever.

      Programming can be done anywhere around the world equally as well, while IT is infrastructure. It can't be too far removed. As soon as the glut of investors in a few specific areas figure that out, watch CS salaries plummet to median wage.

    23. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by mikael · · Score: 2

      From the job descriptions available now, a software developer, software engineer or senior software engineer will consult with clients and other engineers, write design specifications, write, design and implement unit tests using Microsoft or Google Test frameworks, do task breakdowns, provide accurate time estimates, implement software modules, provide code reviews, keep bug lists up to date, mentor software engineers through techniques such as pair or extreme programming, participate in Agile and Scrum meetings. Depending on the field of work, it's either going to be "Big Data" with R, Scala, Hadoop, Java, "Embedded Systems" with C, embedded C, assembler, IOS or Android; or "Desktop Systems" with C#, Java. In every case, they wil five years or more experience.

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    24. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1
      It's a visa dodge. FTFA:

      The source said that means the company will take advantage of rules governing intra-company transfers, which require employees to work for at least one year at a company subsidiary before being transferred to the U.S. He says the result will be a net disadvantage for Canada.

      How much will these trainees cost our universal health care system? It's not like, as trainees, they're going to be making beaucoup bux.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    25. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 5, Informative

      And the rich get richer and the poor get poorer -- America where the Walton family (majority shareholders in Walmart) has wealth equal to the wealth of the bottom 42% of Americans combined.

      --
      It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    26. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by dbIII · · Score: 1

      First rule of a government leaning towards authoritarionism is making exceptions for those that they like.
      It's often about putting some people above the law, and they frequently find a group to demonise to put below the law as well. It's against the entire idea of western civilisation of justice for all. However they don't care, they just don't get this civilisation thing. Fucking barbarians in suits.

    27. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by dbIII · · Score: 1

      I was late for Java because it was TOO DARN SLOW

      But then so was Java at the time :)
      I'm still facing one Java based application with a GUI that moves at glacial speeds.

    28. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fuck MS. I'm an IT worker in Canada and I want some of this work. Right now I spend half my week sitting on my hands. Time to fill im my MP on Monday. Goddamn bullshit.

    29. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      CS = Computer Science

    30. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by jenningsthecat · · Score: 1

      ...Harper is seemingly doing everything he can to keep Canadians out of Canadian jobs.

      Fucking neocons.

      Fucking neocons? Fucking traitors, I say. I also despair for our country under Harper's dict - er, leadership. His ultimate goal seems to be to turn Canada into America's bitch and/or the stooge of any multinational corporation wanting to bend us over and take advantage of us. We used to have a good reputation internationally and some influence on the world stage - hell, we used to have *autonomy*. Now we're increasingly sticking our nose into other countries' business at the behest of our cousins north of the border, we're a target for ISIS terrorists, and our environmental record sucks. Government scientists have government handlers to 'advise' them before they talk to the press - North Korea, anyone? We have gone downhill in so many ways and been sold out so many times under Stephen 'Brown-nose' Harper's regime, I'll be doing a dance when Canadians finally wake up come next election and give him the bum's rush.

      --
      'The Economy' is a giant Ponzi scheme whose most pitiable suckers are the youngest among us and the yet-unborn.
    31. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      IT has several problems, including ageism, racism, and misogamy.

      Not really sure why the last one is a problem.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    32. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by ILongForDarkness · · Score: 1

      I kind of ignored that comment in the article I'm not really clear who the source is and lets face it immigration issues will always have people interested in looking at the worst possible outcome and explaining it that way. It isn't Mexican farm workers doing jobs Americans don't want to do, it is Mexicans, some with cartel ties ... Yeah some do but the vast majority.

      Not going to happen but the least they could do is since they are immigrating to work for a foreign companies benefit force MS to pay for their healthcare not BC. The other problem is MS will get 1 employee but that employee will likely bring their whole family. So yeah Canada might get taxes paid on an $80k salary but it will also have likely 2-4 people all coming from places with less than stellar healthcare coming over for a year to get themselves a tune up. That is why I'm not a fan of the skilled workers visa allowing you to bring your family. MS saves doubly: they likely get foreign workers willing to work for under market rate and they save on healthcare expenses because they can just ride the Canadian system for them.

      Skilled labor immigration: IMO everyone of working age should have to qualify on their own merits not just one person with an in need job (or the need should be really desperate because a family will likely cost $40k a year or so to the system for the first couple years what with outstanding medical issues to sort out, english training, etc). Often we get a doctor and wife/husband, plus 3-4 kids, an uncle, their parents in a few years etc. But we don't recognize the doctors training so he ends up driving a cab and his family have no interest in integrating so they move to a suburb where they can hangout with everyone who's the same nationality just like they never left home. Lots of reforms to be made like: if you get in under skilled workers you should actually be qualified to work in Canada from day 1: its not a fair trade for either party otherwise, false promise to the immigrant, false promise to the citizens footing the social programs bills. If you can't work in your field when you get here then you don't get in (without going through the normal slower process). Also even if you yourself do qualify then we should still weigh the benefits you bring working in your skilled profession versus the social costs you bring by bringing lesser qualified workers and dependents along for the ride.

    33. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What we in the U.S., and perhaps Canada, is a negative income tax or guaranteed income.

      As for the negative income tax...
      22+ years old
      18-21, living away from relatives
      17 and under, living away from relatives and emancipated.
      Must be a legal resident of perhaps 4-7 years, something like that.
      And I'm thinking (Poverty Level - Federal AGI) / 2 = Credit
      It's not much, but for a collection of adults, it provides some security coupled with foodstamps.
      Furthermore, it helps buffer against the economy.

      Along with this, I wish we had single-payer universal health care in the U.S. Coupled with a need for prescription drug patent reform. Maybe a couple years of college tuition-free, along with student loan reform. Student loan reform as in strict requirements that the university/college must meet, such as not exceeding X percent in administrative costs, etc. Also, a cap on student loan interest rates at the CPI rate of inflation.

      We should be striving to bring up everyone living in our respective countries, rather than simply doing what's "best" for the economy.

      There really needs to be a law that foreign workers must be paid no less than citizen wages for the wage job.

    34. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Comparing L1B with H1B

      http://www.immihelp.com/l1-visa/l1-visa-h1b-visa-comparison.html

    35. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by sycodon · · Score: 3, Insightful

      When people get their panties in a twist about how much "wealth" the Walton family has it just shows they don't understand what wealth is.

      Their "wealth" is paper. They could be worth X millions one day and X - a butt load of money the next. It has no impact on how much they can spend at lunch or whether they get the premium cable package or the standard. It's not cash. They'd have to sell or take out loans against their shares if they wanted to go buy a Private Jet or something like that.

      So the fact they are worth a few billion in paper doesn't diminish your pay check at all.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    36. Re: Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      23 Things They Don't Tell You About Capitalism
      http://www.theguardian.com/books/2010/aug/29/ha-joon-chang-23-things

      Ferdinand Pecora
      http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-man-who-busted-the-banksters-932416/

      The Hellhound of Wallstreet (Ferdinand Pecora)
      https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.amazon.com/The-Hellhound-Wall-Street-Investigation/dp/B004LQ0EDM&sa=U&ei=gPuMVP2KGcSyogSY1YCACA&ved=0CAsQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNEiPCKQVF56wqnQzu8Lnm4D8XkctA

      Labor is labor. Capital seeks the lowest cost. Borders mean nothing to the wealthy. And if you believe otherwise, you are living the dream. The great American/British illusion that wealth is created by magical investors, then mystically distributed for the benefit of all is part of the myth behind 20th century free market fundamentalism.

    37. Re: Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Harper is toady to the fraudsters who leach wealth through modern banking, currency manipulation and the myth that 'ownership' justifies subservience. Liberalism has run its course and proven to be ineffectual against the irrational behavior of 'humanity'.

    38. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by ILongForDarkness · · Score: 1

      Of course not everyone is under this program but H-1Bs at least need to be paid the going rate for their job/geographical location. The funny thing is citizens have no such protection, so if you are too easy going, not well informed, desperate to move etc and except a salary that is 50% of what the going rate is that is your problem, but a foreign worker with the situational/personality traits would have some protections by the nature of the H1B system. Canada's Skilled Worker program has the same requirements I think, unless that is another exception that MS bought to the law. It's a part of the free market I suppose but the problem is people often aren't free in the truest sense. Life happens: spouse gets another job and you are forced to change markets, your young and feel forced to accept a ridiculously low salary because everyone is telling you you need 10 years experience to shovel manure, so you buy your way into "gaining experience" by working for poverty level wages etc.

      I agree we need more investment in people over abstract concepts like "economy". Funny how the economy can be doing fine while people with full time jobs at Walmart still need welfare to get by. Funneling all the money to a few people or overseas makes the "economy" look very productive but the people aren't really improved very much.

      Education: it is a hard one. I have friends in all walks of life. Some simply are not very bright or interested in learning. Making the student bare the cost acts as some filter to at least make sure that they have some interest in what they are doing. People can still study pretty silly things because they want to party for 4 years but it helps and as long as they are paying for it no one else is harmed. An alternative way of funding education might be an education "tax". Say 5% of what you make for the next 15 years or whatever it needs to be. It has to be a long time to prevent people just living with their parents for a couple years till the bill collectors go away. The good thing with this is it would incentivize schools to offer programs where people actually get good jobs. The "basket weaving" programs would also get their appropriate amount of funding.

    39. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by ILongForDarkness · · Score: 1

      Oh and single payer heathcare: yep that is good. Obamacare can work too though. I'm Canadian and lived in Germany. There if you work you have to buy insurance but are free to pick the provider, the provider charges a fixed percentage of your salary (at the time I was there typically 8-10%). If you don't work you are covered by the government. Either way you always have coverage and the "haves" subsidize the cost of the "have nots" just like would happen in a single payer system. Either way I'm happy with: seems kind of silly to have people stuck with a poorly matched job for medical reasons, or loose all their family assets at the same time they lose a family member that they depend on.

    40. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      But they have more money than us and clearly we work harder because our jobs are dirty manual labor or services that will be replaced by robots within the next 50 years. How will support ourselves when we have nothing of use to offer to the world?

    41. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by AnOnyxMouseCoward · · Score: 0

      "CS worker" = people with a degree in computer science. I feel it's pretty self-explanatory, since when are computer science grads working in IT support?

      By the way, American companies tend to hire quite a bit in Canada and plenty of people go, but eh, there's an implicit (and now explicit) tension in American society (racism, class-ism, not to mention gun violence, lack of healthcare, etc.) that tend not to sit well with some Canadians.

    42. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We will hang cunts like you from a tree, that's what.

    43. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by NoKaOi · · Score: 2

      It has no impact on how much they can spend at lunch or whether they get the premium cable package or the standard.

      Right, I'm sure they have to budget their lunches very carefully. I'm sure they have to make decisions about which days they have to bring lunch from home and how many days they can afford to eat out. I'm sure it's also a huge decision about whether to splurge for the premium cable package, or save money and get standard cable so they can afford a few more days of eating off the dollar menu.

      They'd have to sell or take out loans against their shares if they wanted to go buy a Private Jet or something like that.

      Oh. My. God. You mean they can't just order another private jet online, they actually have to fill out some paperwork? Scratch that, they actually have to sign the paperwork that their lawyers filled out for them? I feel so sorry for them! They have it so rough compared to their employees, whose entire wealth can be had as cash in an instant simply by digging through the couch cushions.

    44. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We all know, but it's hard to prove there is some sort of payoff to those who can change things. Canada is very polite when it comes to helping those who can help ourselves.

    45. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You'll always have organs to harvest - er I mean sell.

    46. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      That's because the bottom 42% doesn't save. If you don't save, you have no wealth by definition.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    47. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by lgw · · Score: 1

      "CS worker" = people with a degree in computer science

      Not a single person I was friends with in college went on to work in the same field as their major - well, I guess there was one guy who got a CS degree and went on to code, but in a very different role than the specialty he got a masters in.

      When people use these ambiguous phrases like "IT" or "CS worker", I always wonder: why the euphemism? If you mean software developer, say software developer. It's the best job you can get (as far as working for other people without being a star entertainer) in many nations, and it's one of the best in the US as well, though we don't get the in-office prestige that successful doctors and lawyers get (but then again, they tend to be small business owners, not employees, once successful). If you mean "network guy", say that instead - though the roles begin to blur a little at cloud scale, I guess.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    48. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      .. and misogamy.

      IT managers hate marriage? This is news indeed. I thought you would play the gender card and say misogyny.

    49. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      We do not have a shortage of CS workers in this country, we have a surplus, and with some provinces having over 10% unemployment rates Harper is seemingly doing everything he can to keep Canadians out of Canadian jobs.

      Incorrect. Harper is a skilled politician that does things he knows about. Like oil. He knows a lot about oil. He knows oil provides jobs, and good paying ones at that. He knows anything that threatens oil will make it less profitable, and thus, make it less money and hurt Canada.

      Of course, Harper's problem is, Canada is NOT just an oil state. Sure we have a bit of oil, and our dollar reflects that, but Canada is also a lot more diverse - we do have a booming high-tech industry with several leading game studios, many indie game developers, booming cultural industries including TV, music and movies, and manufacturing, as well as forestry.

      Of course, Harper knows oil. Fuck the rest of 'em - he's ignorant of those sectors and they mean fuck-all to him. Oil is all that matters. And not even refining it in-country (where people might actually benefit from stuff like lower gas prices).

      Hell, Keystone XL is like every other pipeline planned in Canada - just ship the oil somewhere else - don't even try to make a value-added product out of it. (Keystone XL was to bring oil to a port to ship it somewhere. Not even to go to US refineries where US consumers might actually benefit...).

      Sure, oil may be Canada's biggest money maker right now, but diversification of an economy isn't a bad thing if like now oil is tanking because Saudi Arabia wants to bankrupt US oil companies and pick them up for a song. Alberta's in a lot of trouble because oil is way lower than they budgeted for.

    50. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's because the bottom 42% doesn't save. If you don't save, you have no wealth by definition.

      I know this may come as a shock to you, but it's very likely the bottom 42% can't save in order to build wealth.

      And quite often it comes down to simple math and nothing else.

    51. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by Paradise+Pete · · Score: 1

      Walmart pays a healthy dividend. If one owned, say, $10B worth of the stock, they'd have to scrape by on a mere $229M per year in cash. That's not even a million dollars a day! What's a person to do?

    52. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by Loki_1929 · · Score: 2

      To be fair, a great many of that 42% have little opportunity to save based on the value of the work they're doing. When you're making $18k a year, even if you have no kids, it's nearly impossible to save anything. Now I know what you're going to say - get a better job - but ultimately, someone has to clean the toilets at your office building and that someone isn't going to make more than $18k because that work just isn't that valuable. Increasing everyone's pay is also not a solution as that merely increases prices to compensate and brings down middle class workers.

      Of course, there's an argument to be made that such people should give up something they really like - TV, cell phone, something - to invest in a 401k. Putting aside $50/month in something like a 401k or IRA with no employer match turns into about $220,000 over 40 years ($335k over 45). However, that $50/month can be a huge amount to someone at that end of the scale and it'll be the first thing to go when they have a medical issue and need to pay the doctor to get better. Worse, these people often have one or more kids (and I don't know how they make that all work), which proves an even greater drain on what tiny resources they have.

      Perhaps part of every welfare program should include some money and financial management counseling.

      --
      -- "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
    53. Re: Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow never heard of outsourcing or VPN/Remote Desktop? Welcome to the 90s

    54. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      Well, it does actually impact things like what they pay for lunch, since, oddly, the more money a person has "on paper," the less they're expected to actually pay for.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    55. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by CanHasDIY · · Score: 2

      It's always boggled my mind how a person can say that toilet-scrubbers don't deserve decent pay because they aren't necessarily 'valuable,' in the very next breath after saying "someone HAS to scrub the toilets."

      I know that's not what you were getting at, just making an observation.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    56. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by jd2112 · · Score: 1

      It's always boggled my mind how a person can say that toilet-scrubbers don't deserve decent pay because they aren't necessarily 'valuable,' in the very next breath after saying "someone HAS to scrub the toilets."

      I know that's not what you were getting at, just making an observation.

      We can build a spaceship and load it up with all of the telephone sanitizes and marketing consultants and such then ship them off to another planet. What could possibly go wrong?

      --
      Any insufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology.
    57. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by lazarus · · Score: 1

      Ya. Fucking neocons... I say bring back the stripper visas that the Liberals put in place!

      Seriously, you should try removing your head from your ass. All politicians are criminals. The Conservatives want more foreign techs, the Liberals want more foreign strippers. That's the way the world works -- try not to get so polarized about it.

      --
      I am not interested in articles about life extension advancements.
    58. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, some study of economics might lead you to the realisation that the Walton's way of acquiring wealth diminishes everyone's paycheck. But hey, who needs logic if it stands in the way of being ignorant?

    59. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by phantomfive · · Score: 0

      Now I know what you're going to say

      No you don't. But in passing we can mention that even janitors make more than $18k.

      When you're making $18k a year, even if you have no kids, it's nearly impossible to save anything.

      No it's not, you have horrible personal finances.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    60. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by madhi19205 · · Score: 1

      We never really left the feodal system. It been relabled, and reshaped more than once, and over the centuries the aristocracy gave us a bone or two to keep the general population from going all revolutionary again. We just taded land baron for rail baron. From rail baron to heavy industry baron it was only the logical step that we moved on to financial and high technology baron. Sure education will open you some doors now. At least it use to but look how they are working on stacking the lowest steps in the corporate ladder with disposable employees. By closing the lowest step in the corporate ladder the ruling class reserve for their own children access to mid level jobs.

    61. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by leslie.satenstein · · Score: 1

      We do not have a shortage of CS workers in this country, we have a surplus, and with some provinces having over 10% unemployment rates Harper is seemingly doing everything he can to keep Canadians out of Canadian jobs.

      Fucking neocons.

      There is probably some clauses in the deal that state that they will allow two for one. Two foreign for one domestic. Not fair you say? Well, it will cause a depletion of jobs from Silicon valley as permanent jobs move north. For northerners (we Canadians), there should be an increase in jobs for domestically qualified software developers. Why, we may even see an immigration of US citizens to Canada because of it. The net benefit will, of course, be corporate tax revenue for Canada. If MS comes to Quebec, for example, we are already multilingual (we live with and are fluent with two languages French, and English) and most of our university graduates have perfect fluency in a third language (Spanish, Portugese, Greek, Arabic), typically the language of their parents and grandparents.

    62. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's a "Software Developer"? Is that like a code monkey?

    63. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by amber_of_luxor · · Score: 1

      > someone isn't going to make more than $18k because that work just isn't that valuable

      In some places, the minimum wage is US$15.00 per hour.
      For a full time job, that means an annual income of US$30,000.

      >Perhaps part of every welfare program should include some money and financial management counseling.

      If your gross monthly income is US$1,500:
      * Tax: US$180;
      * FICA: US$180;
      For a take home check of US$1,140:
      * Prudence dictates that one spend no more than 25% of one's gross income on shelter, including utilities.
      Most landlords insist on a take home check that is at least three times the monthly rent.
      * Using the prudent formula, your shelter costs should not exceed US$375 / month;
      * Using the landlord formula, your shelter costs should not exceed US$380 / month;

      It doesn't matter how good your skills at keeping a budget are, if there is no shelter at a price that either prudence, or landlords will accept is affordable for you, the renter.

      As a home owner, the options are slightly better, but even there, property tax can prevent financial prudence.

      --
      Wind Beneath Thy Wings
    64. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Harper had done enough.
      He's not getting many votes. His plans at deregulating the banks went too slow or otherwise we would have been in a similar situation to our neighbors down south. As is, housing has now become fucking stupid (I'm in Calgary and a house that used to cost $200K a few years ago is now about $600K). Now that Oil prices are dropping, Alberta can no longer help in supporting the rest (read Ontario).

      He created a few hundred thousand part time jobs because yes, its that that will put food on Canadian family tables.

      What I find absolutely tragic is that the other two candidates (Mulcair and Trudeau) are just as idiotic.

      We're heading for some troubled times...

    65. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      I was pondering this very topic during my morning shower. How easy it is for someone to say, skip lunch, don't get cable, live on beans and rice, walk to work, etc...

      It's simple to make a temporary sacrifice, when you can see the light at the end of the tunnel and your probably coming off a pretty nice existence.
      It's not so simple to make a sacrifice that leave's you treading water, in the same miserable existence. Human nature makes it seem better to enjoy yourself while you can.

    66. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes. Fuck Harper! He needs to die in a fire, horribly painfully and slowly. The man is pure evil.

    67. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by ixidor · · Score: 1

      yes, exactly. in places where the min wages is over the federal, it is almost always because the cost of living is so much. like DC, or San Fransisco. try to find somewhere to stay in DC for less than $900/month, i dare you. or how about this... im hourly, $18/hr, about 36-38 hours per week. now take out taxes (i usually figure it at about 25% for all of it), child support $440/mo, and the company health plan im forced to get ( due to custody and paperwork from the state) at $220/mo, im left with what someone making $10/hour would get. conversely, it costs me more than minimum wage in my area just to cover taxes, child support and health insurance for my son. Don't leave much left over.

    68. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I miss programming for a living, but I don't miss all the garbage that seems to be inextricably entangled with it, such as the "pissing contests", the hoarding of information, the sexism, the insane hours, the constant changing of designs "because someone saw something really neat and we need it too".

      I've never seen any of these things, in decades of professional experience.

      Pissing contests? No person with a sense of professionalism does that.

      Hoarding of information? Again, this isn't compatible with professionalism: no competently run organization permits this. Often there are huge problems with people not knowing how to document things, but this can be cured over the long term by appropriate mentoring, feedback, and management support, and I've never had a problem with people being unwilling to explain in person what they failed to explain in their documentation.

      Sexism? Some of the best programmer's I've ever worked with are women. I don't see any sexism. Skills of that calibre only come from being given lots of good opportunities to learn and develop on real projects. Certainly they aren't taught in most schools, where publish or perish and large class sizes combines with a low level of experience of the part of instructors to make teaching people to program well a very low priority. They generally don't come from open source work, either: it takes really good one-on-one mentoring to get good at any art in a reasonable amount of time, and that isn't really something one finds in the open source ecosystem. There aren't as many women as men in programming, but that seems to happen long before people get into the workforce.

      Insane hours? The longest days I ever spent programming were in college. It was an unusual academic program, one of the few where the instructors were dedicated to teaching students to program at a professional level, and even then the long hours were mostly our own fault (we the students often over-estimated our abilities, and paid the price in long hours)! These days the only times I work long hours is when I screw up, which doesn't happen often, or somebody else does and I need to help them get the job done. Professional organizations understand that people need time away from work: professionalism requires integrity towards one's own people, as well as towards the customer.

      Constant changing of designs because somebody sees something neat? Not with managers and developers that understand the cost of making those changes. If anything, more flexibility with changing designs would help many organizations, which means training managers and executives to plan for this.

      Inextricably entangled? No. There is enormous variation in any human activity, and you seem to have fallen into a some bad situations (indicitive of incompetence on the part of management), but that is certainly not the way things have to be. Your experience does not reflect the wider world.

    69. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      Perhaps you've never worked in a startup. Or worse, Microsoft (read the comments). Even in 1990, Microsoft had a really bad reputation. An engineer friend warned me off when they called.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    70. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by Areyoukiddingme · · Score: 1

      When people get their panties in a twist about how much "wealth" the Walton family has it just shows they don't understand what wealth is.

      Their "wealth" is paper. They could be worth X millions one day and X - a butt load of money the next. It has no impact on how much they can spend at lunch or whether they get the premium cable package or the standard. It's not cash.

      On the contrary, it is very definitely cash. Walmart Corporation pays dividends to the tune of $0.48 per share every quarter for the past four quarters. Walmart has raised their dividend every year for the past 41 years. That amounts to $3.1 billion in cash paid to the Waltons this year. The Walton family still controls a simple majority of the company, owning more than 50% of the 3.223 billion shares outstanding.

      That's cash money. No loan, no promissory note, no sale of shares. Of course the Waltons have built an edifice of fictional corporate entities to hold their stock that exists mainly for the purpose of avoiding taxes, so it's not like there's a single bank account that goes cha-ching +$775 million every quarter, but the difference is only significant to the tax man and the lawyers.

      You don't understand what wealth is. It's ownership. And ownership PAYS. And pays and pays and pays.

    71. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by Loki_1929 · · Score: 1

      But in passing we can mention that even janitors make more than $18k.

      Depends on where you live.

      When you're making $18k a year, even if you have no kids, it's nearly impossible to save anything.

      No it's not, you have horrible personal finances.

      Depends on where you live.

      --
      -- "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
    72. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by NewYork · · Score: 1

      Unlike Capitalism, Globalization is Zero-sum and a giant Ponzi/Pyramid scheme.
      http://www.businessinsider.com...

    73. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by sociocapitalist · · Score: 1

      When people get their panties in a twist about how much "wealth" the Walton family has it just shows they don't understand what wealth is.

      Their "wealth" is paper. They could be worth X millions one day and X - a butt load of money the next. It has no impact on how much they can spend at lunch or whether they get the premium cable package or the standard. It's not cash. They'd have to sell or take out loans against their shares if they wanted to go buy a Private Jet or something like that.

      So the fact they are worth a few billion in paper doesn't diminish your pay check at all.

      Cash is also 'paper' and wealth doesn't need to be cash anyway.

      That being said, they probably also have more cash on hand than the lower half of Americans combined as well.

      --
      blindly antisocialist = antisocial
    74. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by beastofburdon · · Score: 1

      No, they couldn't find the entire wealth of their employees in their couch cushions. It is impossible to find a negative amount of money. Their employees total wealth is a very large debt which most of them will never be able to pay off.

    75. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by Spugglefink · · Score: 1

      No, they couldn't find the entire wealth of their employees in their couch cushions. It is impossible to find a negative amount of money. Their employees total wealth is a very large debt which most of them will never be able to pay off.

      What's even more irritating is that the richest and largest company in the world staffs itself through subsidies that come out of your pocket and mine. Most of the people working there are barely scraping by, and when the hours get cut after Christmas, they go file for welfare and unemployment benefits to supplement their meager income. People can afford to work there because we make up for their pathetic salary through taxes. This seriously pisses me off.

    76. Re:Fucking Hell, Harper needs to go! by beastofburdon · · Score: 1

      Yea, no joke. Our system is fucked, and it is only going to get worse before we have no choice but to destroy the system.

  2. Payoff by WillKemp · · Score: 1

    Someone's getting a nice big bribe!

  3. does that mean American workers? by swschrad · · Score: 2

    do American workers now displaced from places overseas get waved across the border to work in Canada, then, eh?

    --
    if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
    1. Re:does that mean American workers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It sounds more like a way to get more overseas workers into the US.

      "The source said that means the company will take advantage of rules governing intra-company transfers, which require employees to work for at least one year at a company subsidiary before being transferred to the U.S."

      Sounds like they'll import cheap labor to Canada. Have them work there for a year and then import them into the US.

    2. Re:does that mean American workers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Americans with a university degree should be able to get a 3 year work visa without issue.

    3. Re:does that mean American workers? by germansausage · · Score: 1

      Exactly. The two talking heads on the TV news both said it was about getting more foreign workers into the US.

    4. Re:does that mean American workers? by Cyberax · · Score: 2

      Unlikely. L1 transfers can work just as well for companies in Europe or Asia. A couple of my friends immigrated in the US by creating a company in the US and a local subsidiary in Ukraine, then they simply transferred to the US after 1 year (and it's totally legal). So why Microsoft would need to move workers to Canada first if any other country is sufficient?

      More likely Microsoft said something like: "Either we cut 1000 positions in Canada or you allow us to bring temps. Your choice."

    5. Re:does that mean American workers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why not keep them in Canada? I mean, what's so special about locating these workers in the U.S. For all intents and purposes, a worker in Redmond, WA is the same as a worker in Vancouver, B.C. Same time zone and not a far drive away.

  4. M$ to Canada: you are my bitch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Bend over.

  5. We just got finished closing this door by davecb · · Score: 1

    By changes made by the same government that has now opened yet another back door. Can you say "never let your left hand know what your right hand is doing"? Or other phases about hands...

    --
    davecb@spamcop.net
  6. Remember the stripper visa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Canada had a stripper visa where they targeted Eastern Europe and South-East Asia to fill their stripper shortages.

    Now, the temporary tech visa is targeted to India and China (they fill up 90%+ of these jobs).

    Let's face it. When we say foreign, we mean India + China. With these job visas, people of India and China will want to become citizens of Canada (or US). I guess we don't like Indians and Chinese to become fellow citizens.

    I've found that foreign western Europeans are welcomed with enthusiasm but foreign Asians with much much resentment.

    In my opinion, it is very positive for us to have high educated and motivated individuals working here. However, old habits die hard and people from different backgrounds never seem to coalesce together.

    1. Re:Remember the stripper visa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ugh, everything that is from with TFW program is that these companies aren't required to hire Canadians that have applied. There is no way a foreigner is "better" when the kinds of people being hired have an education barely more qualified than a High School graduate.

      The TFW program grew criticism because fast food agencies were using it. There is absolutely no way in hell these companies can't find people who already live here to work in those businesses. Often the complaint from Canadian Teens is that "nobody is ever hiring"

      Now the area in question, Vancouver, is a bit unusual. Vancouver has always had more jobs available than residents, so the TFW program does have some merit here. BUT.. that is owing to the geography. People don't want to commute 3 hours to do a fast food job downtown. Nobody can afford to live anywhere in metro Vancouver and work downtown unless they are part of a 2-income family both making 6 figures. I can live on 1/5th of this, because I work at home. But good luck to anyone who has to sit an hour in traffic or 3 hours in transit. Nobody that can afford to live downtown is going to work at McDonalds.

    2. Re:Remember the stripper visa by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 4, Informative

      In my opinion, it is very positive for us to have high educated and motivated individuals working here.

      They won't be working long-term in Canada. FTFA:

      The government notice says the new training and development centre will focus on "software and engineering." The notice also says foreign workers will be given 24-month work permits to allow them to stay in Canada "until they are transitioned by Microsoft into a new position elsewhere.

      That "elsewhere" is the US.

      Karen Jones, Microsoft’s deputy general counsel, said the deal will allow Microsoft to bypass stricter U.S. rules on visas for foreign workers.

      And that stripper program?

      Earlier this year, Mr. Kenney announced that employers with good reputations would be allowed to fast track the hiring of temporary foreign workers and be allowed to pay them 15 per cent less than the average wage for a particular job. Labour groups and the NDP opposition slammed the move, accusing the Conservatives of driving down wages on behalf of employers.

      Same crap, different day.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    3. Re:Remember the stripper visa by mrchaotica · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I've found that foreign western Europeans are welcomed with enthusiasm but foreign Asians with much much resentment.

      Western Europeans are coming from an economy just as good as our own, so they aren't willing to work for peanuts and thus don't drive down wages like people from third-world countries do.

      Asians from developed countries (e.g. Japan) would be welcomed just as warmly, for the same reason.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    4. Re:Remember the stripper visa by majid_aldo · · Score: 1

      well then, hand over the green cards which would allow them to settle in the US and demand treatment just like citizens. oh right those are only for relatives of people already in the US..more than a million of them each year. yea they don't take jobs.

      --
      --- widget evolution: enhanced, plus, super, ultra, extreme, exxxtreme, ultra-extreme, ..etc.
    5. Re:Remember the stripper visa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > I've found that foreign western Europeans are welcomed with enthusiasm but foreign Asians with much much resentment.

      not by me or anyone else. Scummy scabs from any country get no welcome.

  7. Bypassing the H1B visa requirement. by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It's not just a surplus in CS - in some areas it's a HUGE surplus. This is just a continuation of the exemptions granted to the banks to bring in foreign workers and have the current workers train them to do their jobs and then get laid off, ditto fast-food chains who don't want to hire Canadians who know their rights and as such are "too uppity", etc.

    FTFA:

    Karen Jones, Microsoft’s deputy general counsel, said the deal will allow Microsoft to bypass stricter U.S. rules on visas for foreign workers.

    "The U.S. laws clearly did not meet our needs. We have to look to other places," she told the wire service. She went on to say Microsoft didn’t choose to expand in Vancouver "purely for immigration purposes, but immigration is a factor."

    The source said that means the company will take advantage of rules governing intra-company transfers, which require employees to work for at least one year at a company subsidiary before being transferred to the U.S. He says the result will be a net disadvantage for Canada.

    Bad enough the Burger King - Tim Hortons deal was a blatant tax dodge at a time when governments everywhere are trying to get corporations to behave more responsibly ... I guess the Harper government decided to "double-double down."

    Blame Canada.
    Shame, Canada.
    Oh, Canada.
    Oh-oh Canada.

    --
    "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    1. Re:Bypassing the H1B visa requirement. by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 1

      interesting - I've been saying the same about americans in the US - they are 'too uppity' and know their rights, so therefore, they can't be bullied as much as indi^H^H^H^Hforeign workers holding h1b's.

      that's yet another elephant in the room; its not so much about huge difference in wages (in the US, the h1b's get pretty close to what the USians make; not 50% and not 30%, but close to 80 or 90%) but its more about 'getting more hours out of them' with less complaining. fear of being shipped back home is enough to keep them 'in line'. you can't ship a USian home since he's already home.

      all this is bubbling and brewing into a revolution that WILL come. it WILL come - no doubt at all. there is no sign that things are slowing down in this bad direction and politicians and business owners are still grinning from all the union-busting they have done in the last 50 or so yrs. all the progress our grandfathers made - its ALL been lost. hell, we don't even have our weekends off anymore; ask any IT person and he does not usually have the right to say 'no' if the boss tells him that he has to work longer hours or weekends.

      and look at the term 'exempt' (in the US, at least) when it comes to IT workers. they are 'exempt' in that they don't get time and a half or double or triple time for overtime. hell, they don't get 1x time for overtime! my grandfather definitely did! and he was able to buy a house and have it paid for before he died. me: I doubt I'll ever be able to afford a house in the bay area on a single income; and even a dual income means you will still be paying for that house 30 yrs down the line.

      I'm not hungry for a nasty shake-up or revolution, but it sure seems like its bubbling up, year by year, with the crap that comes each year from the 'job creators' ;(

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    2. Re:Bypassing the H1B visa requirement. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All trickling up from the lower class immigration many here supported. All the uppity Americans working "overtime is just regular time" and "you work for me but you're self employed" jobs that "Americans won't do" have been telling them for decades but they'd rather put them down. Enjoy it because you deserve it. Hope you like being called racist.

    3. Re: Bypassing the H1B visa requirement. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      More like a 15% difference

      http://www.workpermit.com/news/2005_10_26/us/us_h1b_visa_holders_earn_less.htm

    4. Re:Bypassing the H1B visa requirement. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As a software engineer in Europe this never fails to confuse me. How the hell are you people okay with being exploited like that? I work at a large multinational and I swear that I literally don't know anybody (both coworkers and friends) who'd even consider momentarily working 41 hours or more per week unless paid for it (at 200% cost, as the law mandates of course).

      Since when did it become OK for employers to demand workers to work for free, post-slavery? How are you guys okay with this?

  8. Worker Laundering by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's simple. They'll be passing through Canada into the US. Do it quickly enough, it will also prevent tax liability.

  9. McD's been doing it for years by X!0mbarg · · Score: 4, Informative

    Until recently, McDonalds and Tim Horton's in the GTA (Greater Toronto Area) have been doing this sort of thing for years. Usually in the form of 'minority hiring' that shuns the citizenry. They got their hands smacked soundly over it, and now are being watched like a hawk.

    URL Reference here:
    http://www.vancouversun.com/li...

    Now Microsoft is going to do it en masse, taking away the positions from Canadian citizens that have been training here...

    There will be a reckoning over this one.

    1. Re:McD's been doing it for years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      By reckoning, I hope you mean these outkast tech employees will band together using said tech skills, and get that piece of crap ousted politically for good. If not, I can't imagine what you're talking about exactly.

      I find it's amusing that, for all the skills that tech workers who are getting shafted by big tech companies and politics have, they aren't nearly as vocal as one would expect. I see the lack of noise in the US as well. Sadly, even though I do have employment, I still hear about from my colleagues almost every day. The mantre in IT management in the US these days is, keep your labor pool in constant literal position shuffle and fear, while maintaining near impossible employment metrics. It's hard to say your sector is doing great, when it's intentionally being sabotaged, down to a level just enough to keep the wheels from falling off.

  10. Vancouver Ripped Off by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Plenty of Vancouver Microsoft-Nokia staff were layed off or terminated in the period just before this announcement. Many are not yet even back on their feet.

  11. Brilliant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... the Microsoft Exemption.

    Does this have the effect of off-shoring to another country? A country that speaks English without a thick accent and understands the US "screw you" zeitgeist. The real problem being if those immigrant employees are taxed at their real wage. If that wage is really Canadian minimum wage, this deal will cost Canada more than it makes from income taxes. Thinking this will boost corporate taxes is very dumb thinking.

    1. Re:Brilliant by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      A country that speaks English without a thick accent

      You've obviously never been to Newfoundland ... or Quebec, where the English have adopted a lot of French words...

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    2. Re:Brilliant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Protip, look at the origin of most english words.

  12. Let me explain... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    That big MS office in the Bay Area was really expensive to operate. Steve Balmer was OK with it but the new CEO no.

    Now it's mostly gone but the need is still there. So the solution is simple: off-shore (or off-border) the positions to Canada and bring in the Indians, Chinese, and laid-off Americans. All for a fraction of the initial cost!! Canada is also more pro-employers than the US in many ways (ex. taxes in some areas, free healthcare, etc)...

    Now, Harper is pro-immigration (numbers are hitting the roof every year with him). But he likes "skilled" immigrants only, not refugees and unskilled, which the NDP and the Libs prefer so much. So it all makes sense!

  13. So what are laws for? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If this is somehow needed, then the laws ought to be changed. Otherwise, it just means the government is corrupt.

    1. Re:So what are laws for? by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      This is the Harper regime we are talking about. Did you need any additional hints?

    2. Re:So what are laws for? by manu0601 · · Score: 1

      If this is somehow needed, then the laws ought to be changed

      Indeed, otherwise this is called privilege (that is: private law), something that has democracy is supposed to have stopped.

  14. Developed world unable to train tech workers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...to accept third world wages and indentured servitude. Once your education systems have been completely handed over to corporate interests that will train the next generation of workers that $10 is a good wage and that you should be at the beck and call of your employer 24 hours a day, you'll become comptitive enough to get some of those jobs.

  15. Also: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Asian countries are extremely xenophobic and stop at nothing to prevent non-Asian workers in their countries.

  16. Rather not have a union, thanks by Chirs · · Score: 1

    Maybe a professional organization, like the Engineers have here in Canada.

    I had friends working for a union building pipelines. It was all about seniority, not skill. My mom worked as part of a union, and they didn't represent her interests. My friend worked for a union and they made here go on strike due to issues that some other people in a totally different job had on the other side of the country.

    Meanwhile I've worked for three different companies over the past decade and a half, I've gotten along with every manager I've ever had, I've been reasonably happy with my work, I've gotten more money than I ever expected. I don't see how being part of a union would have helped.

    I respect that unions can do good things, but they have issues as well.

    1. Re:Rather not have a union, thanks by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      A professional organization would make sense, except that herding programmers is worse than herding cats. A union with a limited charter (pay for hours worked and no more assuming that employers can pay 40 and squeeze out 80 "because it's crunch time", a grievance process, a union rep present when meeting with HR, stuff like that).

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
  17. Capitalism regards protectionism as damage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    and routes around it.

    - after John Gilmore

  18. Bribing politicians works by rossz · · Score: 1

    Even in Canada, sadly.

    Rope, tree, politician. Some assembly required.

    --
    -- Will program for bandwidth
  19. offshore $$? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Never underestimate the influence of vast sums deposited in offshore accounts for public servants.

  20. No wonder so many contracts go to Microsoft by JohnConnor · · Score: 1

    After a move like that, is it any wonder that Microsoft gets so many contracts with the government of Canada? It's another sad day for open source in Canada when it is so obvious that the GoC is in Microsoft's pocket.

  21. New slogan at next conference by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    àà¥àààà áOEÄ"valapara!
    àà¥àààà áOEÄ"valapara!
    àà¥àààà áOEÄ"valapara!

  22. Tell Govt to impose tax on Microsoft revenues by NewYork · · Score: 1

    Buffett's secretary Bosanek pays a tax rate of 35.8 percent of income, while Buffett pays a rate at 17.4 percent on profit.
    http://news.yahoo.com/warren-b...
    You're paying Income tax on your salary, not savings.
    Tell Govt to impose tax on Company revenues, not profits.
    http://wh.gov/iCfVS

  23. What reckoning by phorm · · Score: 1

    The biggest issue is that older people - who often either don't understand or don't care about much of this - vote for the conservative government that's currently in power. The younger demographic - who are getting thoroughly screwed by the current government in terms of less jobs, selling off of domestic natural resources, and increasing cost of education/housing/etc - don't seem to get out to vote. Now to be fair, some of this is due to the government screwing with the rules around voting (particularly around university students and where their voting locale is) but the biggest contributor is plain old laziness and apathy.

    If you're a Canadian of voting age who is not happy with with the way things are currently going, and you DIDN'T VOTE, then you're part of the problem (not accusing the parent, just the lazy bastards in general).