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Microsoft Gets Industry Support Against US Search Of Data In Ireland
An anonymous reader writes Tech giants such as Apple and eBay have given their support in Microsoft's legal battle against the U.S. government regarding the handing over of data stored in an Irish datacenter. In connection with a 2014 drugs investigation, U.S. prosecutors issued a warrant for emails stored by Microsoft in Ireland. The firm refused to hand over the information, but in July was ordered by a judge to comply with the investigation. Microsoft has today filed a collection of letters from industry supporters, such as Apple, eBay, Cisco, Amazon, HP, and Verizon. Trade associations including the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and Digital Rights Ireland have also expressed their support.
Does not matter if communist, socialist or capitalist. They are all obsolete. All them.
In my understanding, politicians should live only with what they provide to the population. They should not be responsible for public health-care if they are not obligated to use that very same service as well! They should also be obligated to use public transport, education, etc.
Oh, they don`t like the idea... ok, the door is at the left. Next!
Make Microsoft Ireland an entirely Irish-owned and run entity that has a "business relationship" with Microsoft America. The US cannot force a sovereign foreign company to do anything, as evidenced by plenty of them refusing subpoenas and other requests. The key word is "request". You can request all you want, but demand is yet something else entirely.
Surely there is some analog to 'extradition' for search warrants, isn't there?
The idea that any nation you happen to have a presence in can demand something you have in any other nation seems like an obviously dangerous shortcut to most-abusive-common-denominator law; but being able to black-hole anything just by shifting the VM across the border presents its own problems.
Is there actually no such instrument, and this sort of thing somehow hasn't come up enough to be settled, or did the Fed prosecutors just demand first and try tact later because they aren't exactly lacking for arrogance(or, in fairness, lacking for reasons to be arrogant, given how often they get away with it)?
A multinational doesn't want to comply with a valid court order? You can spend months complaining about it to all your friends and get them to send letters to the court on your behalf.
A person defies a valid court order? They're arrested and in jail for contempt of court.
It is clear that US Law does not and cannot apply in Ireland. Why is this even an issue? Microsoft cannot be ordered to turn something over in the US unless it has possession of it in the US. Period.
This is Law 101 material here.
Part of me hopes Microsoft loses and this costs the huge US tech conglomerates oodles of overseas business.
This posting is provided 'AS IS' without warranty of any kind, implied or otherwise.
Honestly, I'm having a little bit of a hard time deciding what I think about this. On the one hand, I'm very much in favor of privacy, and it seems to me that the rules for searching a server in Ireland should be approximately the same as the rules for searching a storage locker in Ireland.
On the other hand, I feel that it's important to consider that, with the whole "cloud computing" thing, it doesn't necessarily matter where your data is stored. For example, I might throw a document in my Dropbox folder and it get synced to "the cloud", and I have no idea where that file is physically located. It could be in Ireland, for all I know. So even though I may not live in Ireland or access it from Ireland, I may not have intended to store it in Ireland, and I may not even know it's in Ireland, it happens to be stored in Ireland at this moment. It could be shuffled off to another physical location tomorrow.
So I guess that makes me wonder, in such a hypothetical circumstance, if declaring it absolutely within the jurisdiction of Ireland might be opening a bit of a can of worms. If I throw a file up in my Dropbox and it ends up cached in Russia, without my knowledge or permission, is it now subject to Russian copyright laws? Is it now subject to Russian decency laws? If the information is considered illegal in Russia, am I now guilty of smuggling?
I don't know. I'm not a lawyer, so maybe I'm wrong to think that there might be some weird repercussions.
You mean companies want places to hide their dirty laundry? Where they can hide evidence of tax dodging from the prying eyes of the IRS?
Preemptive fuck-you to the apologists whinging about how tax avoidance isn't illegal. Words like "illegal" start to lose meaning when large powerful entities effectively operate above the law. What does the law mean when you can throw money at lawyers and stall long enough to buy favorable legislation and politicians?
Again, if they comply with the order, whoever does so in Europe (or is in Microsoft Europe and even *allows* it to happen by lax security, or whatever excuse) is in breach of the EU Data Protection laws.
The courts are thick if they don't understand this. Either Microsoft US gets brought before a US court for non-compliance of Microsoft Europe gets brought before a European court for compliance.
This is why we have jurisdiction. This is why you apply to have your court order validated in the jurisdiction you want to enforce it in. This is why it would be refused in such a jurisdiction, anyway.
Anyone who complies, assists or even ALLOWS this kind of movement of personal data, on European soil, will be brought before a court.
It doesn't matter what industry supporters come out (and Apple / Microsoft are hardly rivals - don't they own shares in each other?), it's just a stupid, overreaching legal decision that nobody can legally comply with.
Dog, meet Pony. Showtime.
This allows Microsoft (and any multi-national) additional power to exempt themselves from various US law by shopping around for favorable laws protecting their digital assets. I'm sure there is at least 1 small, poor, developing, (corrupt?) nation out there that would love to accept a few hundred million dollars to build a datacenter and pass a couple "fuck you America!" laws.
Though I also have to admit the court is not the place to prevent that. There are other ways to deal with this problem. Such as passing laws requiring US companies to submit to this and other US court orders as if all assets were stored in the US as long as US persons have electronic access to those assets. Let the company deal with the trouble of complying with Ireland's laws at the same time as US law (maybe by keeping US customer data in the US and European customer data in Europe)... or split up so they can lawfully and truthfully state "Sorry, Microsoft Corp does not control Microsoft Ireland, Ltd. We just do business with them."... and thus forgo their tax loopholes.
This case is about personal privacy and national sovereignty somewhat, but it's primarily about the setting precedent for the privilege of multinational corporations.
I know this is going to be an unpopular viewpoint, but the industry is behind Microsoft here because it lessens their accountability to any governments anywhere. The Snow Crash future, where big corporations make their own rules and don't answer to anyone, depends on them not having any accountability to anyone else. Just like shuffling their money around the globe gets them out of having to pay taxes anywhere, shuffling their data around will prevent them from even being investigated for any crimes they may commit. Expect future incriminating emails and documents to be stored safely in subpoena-proof countries.
If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
I wish times were simpler and my country wasn't such a fucking arrogant, pushy, bastard.
Kind of have to wonder Microsoft et al have other motives (than protecting users) for not wanting the US to be able to get at data stored overseas.
If the US gubberment can get user data stored overseas, it could then perhaps expect to get corporate tax related data stored overseas.
blindly antisocialist = antisocial
A person defies a valid court order? They're arrested and in jail for contempt of court.
Unless that "court order" comes from a completely different country, and ask the person to do something which is absolutely illegal in the current country of that person.
Then the person can laugh and throw the court order in the trash can. (But depending on the "completely different country" 's law, the person's car which was left back there could be seized and destroyed as a retribution).
That's exactly the situation here: A court in the *USA* issues an order to search data in *Ireland*.
No US court has any power to order whatever in the EU. They cannot force anyone in Ireland to do anything. They have no power here.
Not only that, but strict EU laws about data privacy make it *illegal* to do what the US court ask in any country of the EU (and a few other non-EU European countries). If anyone in Ireland were to do what the US asked, they would be thrown in jail for their illegal activities.
Now the court wants to harm Microsoft-US, in retaliation because Microsoft-EU choose to abide to EU-laws and not do what the US court told them to do.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
Everbody knows that invading digital privacy across international boundaries is the job of corporations, not governments!
'The Economy' is a giant Ponzi scheme whose most pitiable suckers are the youngest among us and the yet-unborn.
Today the government wants to fuck MS. Tomorrow they might want to fuck me for the same reason.
If I own a car located in Sweden, and I'm a US citizen in the US, arrested in the US... can the court compel me to make arrangements to produce for the court something in that car's glove box? I don't actually know...could one? Its not entirely unreasonable to speculate that they could make that demand and then hold me in contempt if I refused to make that arrangement.
Depends on what is the car's glove box.
- If it's something that Sweden doesn't give a damn about (some trivial object), well you could produce it for the court, and the court might be unhappy if you refuse to produce it and actively make obstruction (if the court offer to send a swedish cop to retrieve the object and you refuse to give the key your are kindly asked to provide them, you're the problem)
BUT
- If it's something that is illegal to export out of the country according to Swedish or EU law (weapon, endangered specie, nuclear fuel, etc.), then you CANNOT LEGALLY produce it to the court. What the court is asking you is illegal in Sweden. If you do it anyway, you're going to have big problems with a Swedish court.
According to you, it is also the legal property of Microsoft US. They don't need to compel the Irish to do anything. They can (arguably) simply compel the US entity in their jurisdiction to summon its own property.
Sorry, no. They can't. It's not legal in EU countries (and a few other europeans countries) to move private data around without consent.
Microsoft US cannot summon data in Ireland, without the explicit consent of the data owner. If they move the data anyway, they can be sued in Ireland for it.
While in a foreign country, you cannot commit a crime (under that country's law), even if it's your home country asking for you.
(Otherwise, spying would be entirely legal: because it was done on the order of the spy's home country).
It is also subject to the orders of its owner, what with it being property and all. So as long a Microsoft US doesn't demand that it do something illegal by Irish law, it has to do whatever Microsoft US tells it to do.
But moving private data around without the owner's consent *IS* illegal in most EU and other european countries.
What the US court asks *IS* illegal in Ireland.
and the US court HAS NO power in Ireland. They are giving orders out of their jurisdiction.
If so, this boils down to can a court compel a property owner to direct his property to do something (such as forward a document in that properties possession), even if the property happens to be in another country? (one could also substitute "property" for "slave" in that sentence... and
When looked at like that, its not really ridiculous at all.
Except forwarding that document is absolutely illegal in Ireland.
It works better if you substitute "slave" in that sentence: What if there is no slavery in that country ?! What if all humans are considered free?
This is not a case of a court making demands directly of an Irish citizen; which is the possible strawman you erected.
No, but the data happens to be in Ireland, not in the US. Irish and EU law apply there. Nobody gives a damn shit about US there. Exporting the data IS illegal.
Again let's change the details. Let's take some Extremist / totalitarian government. The goverment asks one of its citizen to assassinate a target (that etremist / totalitarian regime has law that make this request legally binding and mandatory). The citizen then travels to US, and shoots the target: an innocent US citizen - who happen to have angered the government with some publication.
Is the assissnation legal, even if it was ordered according to the law of the extremist government? No, because that government has no jurisdiction in the US. In the US, US-law apply, and you are not allowed to shoot random inocent people, just because some other random dude accros
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
Your high go home and sleep it off , there never has been such a time.
Can't you ever see anything positive about the Obama administration? You're just dead-set on opposing them, no matter what they do. Your racism is showing. Go home and sleep it off, and do a better job of disguising it next time, because everyone in the world just saw through you. +5 Insightful my ass, more like +5 Racist.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
So you're saying Obama is infallible and that there's no valid way to criticize a black president? That's a bit short sighted. And I didn't see that in the OP post at all. I'm disgusted with my country, and I was before our current president was elected.
I didn't see anything racist in what he said, just because he thinks his country is on the wrong path, and that country currently happens to have a black president doesn't make him racist.
Do you honestly feel that while we have a black president the government should be beyond reproach because anything said against its actions is racist?
Do you think that his statement even meant, "Things were so much better 6 years ago when we had W"? 'Cause I am pretty sure it didn't.
If the US can't enforce it's laws against content stored off shore, even if owned by an on-shore company, then what about the reverse? How can the DMCA be enforced against those in foreign countries? If Microsoft says that Irish law prevails because that is where the data is stored, then wouldn't the same be true for DMCA violations?
You can't have it both ways. Pirate Bay had it's data on foreign soil, but American companies had no problem with using American laws there. Of course, many countries have treatise with the US, but not all. If Microsoft wins this, do they create a big loophole?
Go Microsoft!!!
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
Have faith. The US was founded on principles much better and stronger than the current crop of poor leaders. The constitution will eventually reassert itself and the people who abused it will have to live with the stain on their character. There is an undercurrent of freedom, democracy and human rights that runs deep.
Look, remember the 60's and later when the chickens came home to roost for the CIA? That organization spent about 20 years in the doghouse. Well I believe that time of reckoning is going to happen again, but this time it will be primarily the NSA that is going to pay the price for their arrogance. The President and VP ought to be held responsible but politically that isn't going to happen. Worst comes to worst for the most senior elected officials, they get a presidential pardon and their role is swept under the rug.
If the DOJ needs data stored in Ireland, why not ask Ireland first? It's not exactly a safe heaven for drug trafficking. I am sure they'd extradite a drug dealer. So they would release any data in drug trafficking case. DOJ just wants to prove that they shouldn't have to ask?
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
Things are fucked up.
Obama is no better than Bush or Clinton, or any of the last 20 presidents. America once stood for integrity. America is now synonymous with corruption, greed, and outright dishonesty, and thought of more as a possible invader than anything else.
I am dead set on opposing criminal activity in contravention of the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Those document were put into place by learned men and when followed, proved quite good at restraining the more vile excesses. Unfortunately, they have been ignored for far too long.
So go fuck off with all your bullshit about racism. And fuck you too, for automatically assuming that everyone posting on SlashDot is Caucasian, you arrogantly stupid ass.
I think you wasted your time with that reply. That sort will always play a race card. It's what they learned from their parent(s).
You are racist if you think the (reasonable) criticism of the GP is in any way related to the skin colour of the president of the US.