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Quantum Physics Just Got Less Complicated

wabrandsma sends this news from Phys.org: Here's a nice surprise: quantum physics is less complicated than we thought. An international team of researchers has proved that two peculiar features of the quantum world previously considered distinct are different manifestations of the same thing. The result is published 19 December in Nature Communications. Patrick Coles, Jedrzej Kaniewski, and Stephanie Wehner made the breakthrough while at the Center for Quantum Technologies at the National University of Singapore. They found that wave-particle duality is simply the quantum uncertainty principle in disguise, reducing two mysteries to one.

117 of 197 comments (clear)

  1. Re:Isn't that obvious? by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 5, Funny

    "wave-particle duality is simply the quantum uncertainty principle" gets a "no shit" straight away from me, though I guess a rigorous proof of it is kind of news.

    Shhh. Don't make waves. :-)

    --
    "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
  2. Re:Lame by TheRealHocusLocus · · Score: 5, Funny

    TFS is so stupid there's no way I'm going to RTFA.

    Comments like this are like urine stains on the wall next to public urinals. They appear so often and so consistently you'd think there was a contest, where the first one to miss, wins.

    --
    <blink>down the rabbit hole</blink>
  3. Copenhagen interpretation != less complicated by narf0708 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Seriously guys, we need to drop the copenhagen interpretation already. Pilot-wave theory eliminates the need for quantum mysticism.

    --
    "Violence is not the answer. Violence is the question. The answer is yes."
    1. Re:Copenhagen interpretation != less complicated by Empiric · · Score: 5, Informative

      In its current, immature state, the pilot-wave formulation of quantum mechanics only describes simple interactions between matter and electromagnetic fields, according to David Wallace, a philosopher of physics at the University of Oxford in England, and cannot even capture the physics of an ordinary light bulb. "It is not by itself capable of representing very much physics," Wallace said. "In my own view, this is the most severe problem for the theory, though, to be fair, it remains an active research area."

      A little early to "drop it", it seems.

      --
      ~ Whence do you come, slayer of men, or where are you going, conqueror of space?
    2. Re:Copenhagen interpretation != less complicated by grimJester · · Score: 2

      Well, I remember Scott Aaronson saying de Broglieâ"Bohm's pilot wave theory requires exponential resources to simulate even with a quantum computer. Ergo even if it makes some things easier to understand it's not generally the most useful way to think about QM and arguably in some sense can't be the way Nature does what it does.

    3. Re:Copenhagen interpretation != less complicated by holmstar · · Score: 4, Insightful

      and arguably in some sense can't be the way Nature does what it does

      citation needed.

    4. Re:Copenhagen interpretation != less complicated by narf0708 · · Score: 1

      True, much work on it does need to be done before it is nearly as mature as the traditional interpretation.

      --
      "Violence is not the answer. Violence is the question. The answer is yes."
    5. Re:Copenhagen interpretation != less complicated by Cyberax · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No, it doesn't eliminate the dualism. Pilot wave theories are a subtype of hidden variable theories and thus were proven wrong by Bell inequalities. The fact that some fluid dynamics systems behave kinda like quantum systems (and only qualitatively so!) means nothing.

    6. Re:Copenhagen interpretation != less complicated by holmstar · · Score: 1

      Local hidden variable theories were dis-proven, but why would a pilot wave be considered local to the particle? It's a property of space-time, not the particle itself.

    7. Re:Copenhagen interpretation != less complicated by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It eliminates non-realism in lieu of non-localism, so you gain nothing really.
      Basically it states particles are real things, but use spooky action at a distance with pilot waves (immediate FTL interaction), whereas most other interpretations state particles are just an illusion, i.e. a local interpretation of a non-local wave function.
      Mathematically these things are the same.
      I'm personally more inclined to the latter interpretation because:
      - Same class particles are identical. Electrons and such do not only have the same mass and charge etc, in some cases nature doesn't consider them separate (the statistics are different when for example mixing two same colored balls and mixing two different colored balls)
      - Pilot waves don't explain matter creation or annihilation. If your theory is particles surfing a wave, then how do you explain things like this where virtual particles pop out&in to the void, with probabilities depending on the energy of the photon.
      - I'm not even sure how Bohemian mechanics handles superposition of states. I mean, sure the pilot waves can be in superposition, but what about the associated particle?

    8. Re:Copenhagen interpretation != less complicated by narf0708 · · Score: 1

      Nonlocality is one of the premises of pilot wave theory. And Bell himself, who discovered those inequalities that you are so misinterpreting, was a supporter of pilot wave theory: “Is it not clear from the smallness of the scintillation on the screen that we have to do with a particle? And is it not clear, from the diffraction and interference patterns, that the motion of the particle is directed by a wave? De Broglie showed in detail how the motion of a particle, passing through just one of two holes in screen, could be influenced by waves propagating through both holes. And so influenced that the particle does not go where the waves cancel out, but is attracted to where they cooperate. This idea seems to me so natural and simple, to resolve the wave-particle dilemma in such a clear and ordinary way, that it is a great mystery to me that it was so generally ignored."

      --
      "Violence is not the answer. Violence is the question. The answer is yes."
    9. Re:Copenhagen interpretation != less complicated by Cyberax · · Score: 1

      It doesn't matter. A pilot wave is a type of a hidden state, in such theories particle take a unique way determined by a pilot wave.

      Think about it - how can a pilot wave communicate which way a particle must take without going backwards in time (i.e. violating the Lorentz invariance)? Imagine that you have a classic two-slit single electron interference experiment. Suppose that the pilot wave theory is true - in this case a pilot wave interferes with itself and electron chooses one path and ultimately hits a scintillating screen where it's detected as a particle. For an external observer it would look as if a particle interfered with itself. So far so good.

      However, let's add another twist - suppose that there's a device (a simple metallic screen) that blocks one of the paths that the electron can take _after_ flying through the slit - this device will cause the interference pattern to disappear (and this was checked by experiments!). However, how would an electron "know" about it when it flies through two slits? Moreover, we can complicate the device by making the screen move and block one path only after electron flies through the slits (it's complicated to do with electrons but it's essentially what happens in the delayed choice quantum eraser experiment). Somehow the pilot wave must provide information to the electron from its future!

    10. Re:Copenhagen interpretation != less complicated by mothlos · · Score: 1

      even if it makes some things easier to understand it's not generally the most useful way to think about QM

      Engineers use Newtonian gravity as the basis for their equations because they are more practical than using relativity. Even if this theory were to turn out to better describe the universe, actual work would get done using simpler, good-enough probabilistic equations instead of the deterministic ones, but that wouldn't change the fact that the new theory better explains the total body of observations we have.

      and arguably in some sense can't be the way Nature does what it does.

      Why would this be the case? Chaotic systems as a class are extremely difficult to calculate, but we have plenty of examples of them in nature.

    11. Re:Copenhagen interpretation != less complicated by Cyberax · · Score: 1

      Non-locality means transmission of information with faster-than-light speeds (essentially, from future to past). To preserve causality you have to impose limitations on this transfer and these limitations are even more magical (see: "superdeterminism"). See my explanation at http://slashdot.org/comments.p... for an example.

    12. Re:Copenhagen interpretation != less complicated by Uecker · · Score: 1

      Non-locality means transmission of information with faster-than-light speeds

      No. There is some kind of non-locality which does not imply FTL transmisson of information.The effects in QM are exactly of this kind.

    13. Re:Copenhagen interpretation != less complicated by Charliemopps · · Score: 1

      Seriously guys, we need to drop the copenhagen interpretation already. Pilot-wave theory eliminates the need for quantum mysticism.

      That theories been prove wrong hundreds of times now.
      The simplest explanation of why it's wrong is that it's Deterministic. i.e. it's part of the "Clockwork universe" and if that's true, then you do not have free will and we should all just throw in the towel now... oh wait, that's right, we don't have a choice. Don't worry, I know it's not your fault that you posted this though, it wasn't up to you!

      Determinism = fail

    14. Re:Copenhagen interpretation != less complicated by Spy+Handler · · Score: 1

      Seriously guys, we need to drop the copenhagen interpretation already.

      Sorry, the geniuses who created quantum mechanics were right the first time. The fact that you find it philosophically objectionable doesn't make it any less valid.

    15. Re:Copenhagen interpretation != less complicated by sconeu · · Score: 1

      Bell showed that Von Neumann's disproof of local hidden variable theories was flat out wrong.

      My understanding is that hidden variables theories can be made to work if reality is non-local. And given that quantum entanglement appears to be non-local, hidden variables should be able to work.

      --
      General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
    16. Re:Copenhagen interpretation != less complicated by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      There's no particular reason to believe your free will isn't deterministic. The human brain makes decisions based on a large number of inputs and internal feedbacks and can't be isolated in a way to allow true testing of "free will" (i.e. whether it can produce different outputs in identical circumstances) so the question is rather moot. It seems more likely that there isn't anything magical going on, and what you perceive as free will is just your brain determining the "best" choice in a situation based on parameters that you may or may not be aware of.

    17. Re:Copenhagen interpretation != less complicated by narf0708 · · Score: 1

      I agree completely that determinism is a terrible philosophy to have. But any view of the world based entirely on the premise of "matter in motion" is necessarily purely deterministic due to this little pesky thing we call logic(which the copenhagen interpretation was content to largely disregard). Matter in motion is logical. People are not logical due to the fact that we have free will. Therefore, people have this thing called consciousness, which is not matter in motion.

      To illustrate this, assume that a neurobiologist is able to perfectly map out a model of the human brain, and generates a set of rules for each node(neuron). Under a given set of conditions, it sends a signal(in our brain it is electrical, but so long as it is a signal, it doesn't matter. Likewise with the neurons. In our brains, they are cells, but so long as they are a node that can perform I/O, it doesn't matter what it materially is) to the next node. Suppose the neurobiologist sets a few trillion or so people in a vast field, and gives each of them a set of rules corresponding to a specific neuron, and when a certain condition is fulfilled, they send a signal to another person in the form of a thrown ball.

      This gives us a seemingly perfect model of the human brain. It is obvious that the model is purely deterministic. Yet all the observable data we have is in favor of our free will. Therefore, this thought experiment must be missing something, not accounting for some unknown factor. Yet it accounts for all the materialistic factors. We can only conclude that there is necessarily a nonmaterial consciousness involved somewhere in the process. Material determinism in no way infringes upon our free will.

      --
      "Violence is not the answer. Violence is the question. The answer is yes."
    18. Re:Copenhagen interpretation != less complicated by Khashishi · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There's no mysticism in quantum mechanics. It's pretty simple and mathematically consistent. All of the mysticism comes from popularizations of quantum mechanics. Bohmian mechanics is an unnecessary complicated interpretation of the same physical models.

    19. Re:Copenhagen interpretation != less complicated by ultranova · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The simplest explanation of why it's wrong is that it's Deterministic. i.e. it's part of the "Clockwork universe" and if that's true, then you do not have free will and we should all just throw in the towel now...

      While we're at it, the Second Law of Thermodynamics must be wrong because I'd like a perpetual motion machine and conservation of momentum must get temporarily suspended when someone's about to be run over by a truck.

      Also, determinism doesn't conflict with free will. Determinism is a concept in physics and free will is a concept in law and philosophy. If you try to contrast them, you'll end up equating free will with randomness: you didn't write your message based on your beliefs which you've formed based on your character and experience (since that would be deterministic), but rather it's the equivalent of "cat /dev/random | strings".

      Determinism = fail

      No, but even if it was, it in no way would disprove it.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    20. Re:Copenhagen interpretation != less complicated by Carewolf · · Score: 1

      requires exponential resources to simulate

      WTF is an exponential resource?

      Exponential refers to the amount of resources, not the type. It basically means it takes e^n resources to simulate. While the GP left n unspecified, lets assume it is either particles or wave functions.

    21. Re:Copenhagen interpretation != less complicated by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      True, much work on it does need to be done before it is nearly as mature as the traditional interpretation.

      In other words, it's voodoo mysticism which isn't useful for anything, and the author may or may not be reaching to make his theory look sound?

      Because the GP kinda makes it sound like healing crystals, and generally not very useful at all.

      When there is "much work to do" on your pet theory before it can explain a lightbulb, maybe your theory is worthless?

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    22. Re:Copenhagen interpretation != less complicated by Cyberax · · Score: 1

      It doesn't work for photons as well. You can time a screen to block photon's path after it flies through two slits of an interferometer. You need not only instantaneous communication, but actually faster-than-instantaneous communication.

    23. Re:Copenhagen interpretation != less complicated by Cyberax · · Score: 1

      Nope. That's the point of Bell's inequalities.

    24. Re:Copenhagen interpretation != less complicated by epine · · Score: 1

      Determinism = fail

      With entanglement, we have an FTL coupling that can't be used to convey classical information.

      Why can't we have a similarly knackered stripe of determinism, one which can't be used to shatter the illusion of free will? This would be a kind of determinism where even if you sort of know it's there, it makes no damn difference to your interpretation of local space.

      Think big, grasshopper, think big.

    25. Re:Copenhagen interpretation != less complicated by Uecker · · Score: 1

      The violation of Bell's inequalities shows that there are no local hidden variable theories, but there might be non-local hidden variable theories. But in contrast to what you seem to think, non-local hidden variables theories do not necessarily enable faster than light (FTL) communication.
      .

    26. Re:Copenhagen interpretation != less complicated by RespekMyAthorati · · Score: 1

      Yet all the observable data we have is in favor of our free will.

      Despite the fact that you can't quote a single item of the so-called "observable data".

    27. Re:Copenhagen interpretation != less complicated by RespekMyAthorati · · Score: 1

      Exactly.
      QM is a solid, reliable and well-tested theory of subatomic interactions, but only when expressed mathematically.
      As soon as someone tries to translate the math into words, everything falls apart because words are always vague and have multiple meanings.

    28. Re:Copenhagen interpretation != less complicated by Carewolf · · Score: 1

      I know what exponential means. Why would you defend his nonsense statement is beyond me.

      I didn't. I attacked your nonsense ;)

  4. Less Complicated by Translation+Error · · Score: 4, Funny

    Of course! This clears up everything! Now I understand quantum physics completely!

    --
    When someone says, "Any fool can see ..." they're usually exactly right.
    1. Re:Less Complicated by Immerman · · Score: 4, Funny

      I bet you didn't even read the math.

      On the other hand, if this discovery can be used to further simplify the just simplified results we can use it recursively until all of quantum physics is reduced to a three-second advertising jingle that anyone can understand.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    2. Re:Less Complicated by Dragonslicer · · Score: 4, Funny

      ...until all of quantum physics is reduced to a three-second advertising jingle that anyone can understand.

      I've collapsed, and I can't get up!

    3. Re:Less Complicated by Immerman · · Score: 1

      Nope, not even entropy-breaking compression can transpose information from real to imaginary space.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    4. Re:Less Complicated by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      What I want to know is if this is going to make things easier during the final exam.

  5. Pilot Wave by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I thought that Pilot Wave Theory answered this "uncertainty"?

    1. Re:Pilot Wave by Immerman · · Score: 3, Informative

      There is a difference between having a competing theory, and proving that two broadly recognized phenomena are actually mathematically equivalent.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    2. Re:Pilot Wave by barlevg · · Score: 1

      As I understand it, Pilot Wave theory is a hidden variable theory, and Bell's Theorem says you can have hidden variables or locality (meaning no action-at-a-distance), but you can't have both, and most physicists really don't like the idea of giving up locality.

  6. "tl;dr" doesn't make you look smarter. by pla · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Wow, loving all the ACs calling this obvious, who clearly didn't even make it to the abstract! "Such wave-particle duality relations (WPDRs) are often thought to be conceptually inequivalent to Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, although this has been debated."

    Clearly, all you armchair physicists need to set those ivory-tower morons straight!

    1. Re: "tl;dr" doesn't make you look smarter. by pla · · Score: 2

      We've personally dealt with long-time academics who have no real world experience. They'll spew theoretical crap all day long, and those of us who have worked in industry see it for what it is: crap.

      In CompSci, I would tend to agree with you; and the humanities do count as complete bullshit, so nothing for them to really get objectively "wrong". :)

      But in Quantum Physics? In that domain, the academics overlap 100% with "industry". Sure, you could argue that virtually the entirety of the semiconductor industry depends on quantum physics, but IMO, that field evolved incrementally from the "Cat's whisker" (which may as well have worked by magic for all its users understood about it), not from any sort of first-principles breakthrough as verification of the theory.

    2. Re: "tl;dr" doesn't make you look smarter. by gzuckier · · Score: 1

      We've personally dealt with long-time academics who have no real world experience. They'll spew theoretical crap all day long, and those of us who have worked in industry see it for what it is: crap. In CompSci, I would tend to agree with you; and the humanities do count as complete bullshit, so nothing for them to really get objectively "wrong". :) But in Quantum Physics? In that domain, the academics overlap 100% with "industry". Sure, you could argue that virtually the entirety of the semiconductor industry depends on quantum physics, but IMO, that field evolved incrementally from the "Cat's whisker" (which may as well have worked by magic for all its users understood about it), not from any sort of first-principles breakthrough as verification of the theory.

      Do microwave ovens still incorporate tunnel diodes in their design?

      --
      Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
  7. Re:Isn't that obvious? by tibit · · Score: 2, Funny

    Stephanie is fat or homeley

    Dear Coward, you fail at google.

    --
    A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
  8. Re:Well, its not rocket science by ArcadeMan · · Score: 1

    The name is Blanche, not Blanch.

  9. So... by ArcadeMan · · Score: 1

    Can we say that this new discovery is a Quantum Leap? What do you think, Al?

    1. Re:So... by DigitalReverend · · Score: 1

      Can't say, Ziggy is offline.

      --
      I read Slashdot for the headlines, because the headlines, unlike the articles, are usually original and never duplicated
    2. Re:So... by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 1

      Oooooh boy.

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  10. Re:Isn't that obvious? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    You have a good point...

  11. Re:WTF? by Cpt_Kirks · · Score: 2

    Heisenberg was walking in a field on a chilly night, looking at the stars, when it came to him.

    Really.

  12. Interesting paper, stupid summary by barlevg · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Here we show that [wave-particle duality relations] correspond precisely to a modern formulation of the uncertainty principle in terms of entropies, namely the min- and max-entropies. This observation unifies two fundamental concepts in quantum mechanics. Furthermore, it leads to a robust framework for deriving novel WPDRs by applying entropic uncertainty relations to interferometric models.

    So they're looking at it in terms of entropies, and when they do, it resolves a debate about whether WPDRs are equivalent to the Uncertainty Principle AND generates new WPDRs.

  13. Re:Not News by Immerman · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There is a wide gulf between suspecting two phenomena are related, and having discovered the rigorous mathematical framework that lets you translate discoveries from one theoretical framework to the other without losing information.

    --
    --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
  14. How about someone who groks the math, comment? by CFD339 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'd love to read a real comment (yeah, I know, it's almost like I'm new here) from someone who is actually capable of understanding the math here. It would be great to see a reasonable discussion on the actual implications here.

    As to people saying "that's obvious" -- what you can intuit and what you can prove are not the same thing. The only thing prove by a "that's obvious" comment is that the person posting it doesn't have a clue.

    --
    The problem with quotes on the internet, is that nobody bothers to check their veracity. -- Abraham Lincoln
    1. Re:How about someone who groks the math, comment? by Jamu · · Score: 4, Informative

      A quantum state of position can be written as a superposition of a momentum states; the position is certain and the momentum is uncertain.

      A quantum state of momentum can be written as a superposition of position states; the momentum is certain and the position is uncertain.

      That's the duality and the extremes of the uncertainty principle. The mathematics can also show more generally, that the uncertainty in position and momentum is always more that a certain value (Planck's constant).

      These things follow directly from the axioms of Quantum theory, Hilbert spaces and any two non-commutative operators. So I really don't see how Quantum Physics "just got less complicated". It's the same as it's always been. Although I've not read the paper yet, maybe that makes more sense.

      --
      Who ordered that?
    2. Re:How about someone who groks the math, comment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Really, really simplified form from one of the linked articles.

      Some specialists in quantum information theory (not their term, but it fits) found that a mild variation of their extremely specialized mathematical models could be used to describe the wave-particle duality concept as another form of the quantum uncertainty limitation.
      The classic quantum uncertainty argument is that velocity and position are related features that cannot be known beyond a certain level of combined precision. As you test harder for position, the error in your velocity measurement will increase, and that it isn't merely a measuring tool issue.
      By their formulas and some analysis, the wave/particle issue looks like it is mathematically a manifestation of positional uncertainty. The more certain you are of a particle's location, the more it acts as a particle. The more certain you are of other properties that are uncertainty-linked with position, the more it acts as a wave.

      While this may seem intuitive to some, (assuming the 'duh' posts aren't just trolling) it has a mathematical foundation now instead of just an instinctive one.

    3. Re:How about someone who groks the math, comment? by hweimer · · Score: 4, Informative

      I just had a brief look at the published version of the paper. Unless you work on fundamental aspects of quantum information theory, the actual implication is that some old debate that took place back in the 90s has been resolved. As others have already pointed out, the relationship between uncertainty relations and wave-particle duality intuitively makes sense, but actually coming up with a mathematical proof that the two concepts are equivalent to each other is certainly a non-trivial amount of work. However, this paper does not significantly change our understanding of quantum physics, nor does it allow us to magically find an efficient way to simulate quantum physics on classical computers. It will also not change the way quantum physics is usually taught, as wave-particle duality basically plays no role there (and uncertainty relations are mostly a side remark).

      Also, notice that the paper has been published in Nature Communications. Usually, this means that the paper was rejected by Nature Physics (or any other of the "Nature Something" journals), so the authors sent it there instead (BTDT). So we probably have at least an editor (and maybe some referees) who thought that the paper was not as sexy as the press release seems to imply.

      --
      OS Reviews: Free and Open Source Software
    4. Re:How about someone who groks the math, comment? by CFD339 · · Score: 1

      Thanks, but the only person to quote for that one (including the poor grammar) is me. I'm glad you enjoyed it. As I just said to someone else who disagrees, "If you put some steel across a span with lots of triangle shapes to it, intuitively you may look at it and say "should hold". I'd probably walk across it willingly. I would not, however, want to count on driving trucks over it regularly without someone with engineering training and rigor applying math and proven science to the problem first."

      --
      The problem with quotes on the internet, is that nobody bothers to check their veracity. -- Abraham Lincoln
    5. Re:How about someone who groks the math, comment? by mcswell · · Score: 1

      Thank you, this is the most cogent-looking response I've seen here. (I say cogent-*looking* because I'm not in a position to evaluate it; but you sound like you're at least rational :-).)

    6. Re:How about someone who groks the math, comment? by RespekMyAthorati · · Score: 1

      Very well said.

  15. That would violate the second law of thermody by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 4, Funny

    If something gets simpler, the entropy of the universe decreases. It can't happen. It is the law, everything should get more and more complicated as time goes by. Why, the next generation will have easier time to pass Quantum Mechanics I PH304 MWF 10:00-11:30 than I did? Would not stand for it.

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
  16. Science, bitches, that's *how* it works! by DrYak · · Score: 5, Informative

    "wave-particle duality is simply the quantum uncertainty principle" gets a "no shit" straight away from me, though I guess a rigorous proof of it is kind of news.

    That's how science work. You don't base your decision on the mere principle that it more or less looks kind of logical.
    (After all, it only looks "kind of logical" to your *brain*, which has spent the last few million years being optimized to help bipedal monkey survive together in the savanah. Actual science can some time feel "weird" and defy logic, because it defies the monkey-brain logic. - e.g.: the sum of all positive integer is a negative fraction)

    You do thoroughly prove that by the numbers.
    Yes, the double-slit experiment (where single particle behave like waves) strongly suggest that the uncertainty principle is at work (there's not *a signle photon* going through the slits, it's instead a function showing the distribution of the probabilities to pick it up at a certain place).
    Now, we have mathematical proof that's indeed the case.

    Science: the only place where it's actually correct to spend the time and mental ressource to formally prove that water *is* wet, and fire *does* burn. Because, along the way, you develop mathematical tools which come handy to do more advanced science.

    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
    1. Re: Science, bitches, that's *how* it works! by WarJolt · · Score: 1, Interesting

      "That's how science work. You don't base your decision on the mere principle that it more or less looks kind of logical."

      Newtonian physics looks kind of logical. It's completely wrong, but plenty of decisions are based on it. Despite that we know is wrong we still use it today because it's incredibly useful.

      Science constantly bases decisions on kinda logical principles until those principles are proven to be wrong.

    2. Re: Science, bitches, that's *how* it works! by nine-times · · Score: 4, Informative

      Newtonian physics looks kind of logical. It's completely wrong...

      No, it's not completely wrong. It's a model that approximates what happens within an acceptable degree of precision for many, many circumstances. We have another model that adds to it and modifies it, and that model is used for situations where that precision is not sufficient. It's not clear that science is capable of providing certainty of "right" or "wrong" beyond determining whether a model approximates what happens within an acceptable degree of precision.

    3. Re:Science, bitches, that's *how* it works! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      From the wikipedia article you link:

      Because the sequence of partial sums fails to converge to a finite limit, the series does not have a sum.

      Please try not to be so fucking stupid when you're making an otherwise reasonable comment.

    4. Re: Science, bitches, that's *how* it works! by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1, Insightful

      It is approximately right, but completely wrong. These are not mutually exclusive. Arguing approximations are perfectly accurate is itself a grave error.

      We do use Newtonian Physics, not because they are correct (they are not) but rather because their approximations are within tolerances of certain deviations from accurate.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    5. Re: Science, bitches, that's *how* it works! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      "Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful."
      -George E. P. Box

    6. Re:Science, bitches, that's *how* it works! by drerwk · · Score: 2

      "wave-particle duality is simply the quantum uncertainty principle" gets a "no shit" straight away from me, though I guess a rigorous proof of it is kind of news.

      That's how science work.

      That more about how math works. Physicists did not care that the calculus of infinitesimal was not rigorous; see especially the Dirac-Delta function. It gave them answers that agreed with experiment which for a Physicist is the best proof. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I...

    7. Re: Science, bitches, that's *how* it works! by ClickOnThis · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It is approximately right, but completely wrong. These are not mutually exclusive. Arguing approximations are perfectly accurate is itself a grave error.

      You're abusing the semantics of "right" and "wrong" in a scientific context. A theory or law is "right" if it agrees with observations or predictions to within the accuracy of measurements. It is "wrong" if it doesn't. On that basis, Newtonian physics is "right" over a vast domain of experience, but is "wrong" in situations involving atomic particles or near-light speeds. It is not "completely wrong" -- not at all.

      BTW, nobody says approximations are perfectly accurate. That's the same as saying they're perfect, and that would mean they cease to be approximations.

      We do use Newtonian Physics, not because they are correct (they are not) but rather because their approximations are within tolerances of certain deviations from accurate.

      Again, you abuse semantics. Scientists do not use the word "correct" in the sense of an absolute truth, but rather in the sense of what works to make accurate predictions. Science endeavors to shrink-wrap the tightest possible boundary around "absolute" truth, but does not claim to know what that truth is.

      --
      If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
    8. Re:Science, bitches, that's *how* it works! by WoOS · · Score: 1

      Actual science can some time feel "weird" and defy logic, because it defies the monkey-brain logic. - e.g.: the sum of all positive integer is a negative fraction)

      You do thoroughly prove that by the numbers.

      This has nothing to do with monkey-brain logic but with you either not reading or not understanding related wikipedia articles. E.g. this article clearly says "A summation method can be seen as a function from a set of sequences of partial sums to values."

      Thus your 1+2+3+4+....'='-1/12 'non-monkey-brain science' actually says that if you apply a certain function (other than standard summation) to map a divergent series to a number that number will be -1/12. Or, to say it in another way, a nice pasttime for mathematcians wanting to classify (not solve) series.

      But unless you also want to claim that -1/12=infinity that number is definitely not "the sum of all positive integer".

    9. Re: Science, bitches, that's *how* it works! by MozeeToby · · Score: 1

      One of the great scientific minds of the modern era can say it far better than me.

      "John, when people thought the earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the earth was spherical, they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."

      Isaac Asimov - The Relativity of Wrong

    10. Re: Science, bitches, that's *how* it works! by smaddox · · Score: 1

      A self consistent theory is never "wrong". It can, however, be used incorrectly by applying it to a system that does not follow the axioms. Our universe follows Newton's axioms within experimental error at moderate size and energy scales. At much smaller or larger scales, the axioms no longer describe our universe and as a result the theory no longer applies.

  17. Re:more simplifications and fewer cats, please by oracleofbargth · · Score: 1

    You are clearly wrong. The Cat is neither alive nor dead, and heralds the birth of the zombie apocalypse. Run while you still can!

  18. Re:Isn't that obvious? by Calydor · · Score: 2

    Any particular reason?

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  19. Re: Lame by WarJolt · · Score: 1

    Someone needs to invent a urinal aiming sticker for /. comments.

  20. Re:I already thought this was the case by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Congratulations on misunderstanding the point of the post. Yes, this was my intuition. Then I gave some explanation of the intuition. Then I gave some congratulations of the people that proved the intuition. I quote "proved" because often people say something has been proved when in reality no such thing has been done. Science does not prove anything correct. Not reading the article indicates that I do not know whether it was an experimental "proof" or an actual mathematical proof. At no point did I insinuate superiority to academic researchers, who I am sure had the same intuition (it appears to be very common). It is your own sense of superiority that leads you to act condescending and assume that I am like you, also self-assured in superiority. Also, I posted AC because I don't have an account and never intend to make one.

  21. Re: Entropy underlies all? by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 4, Interesting

    There's a gravity wave experiment in Poland looking at the simulation question. They've found our universe to cheat between the minimum length that would need to be simulated and the Plank length - it's all noise down there where we expected to find signal.

    There could also be an undiscovered reason, but the shape of the noise matches to a few sigma that predicted by the 'spherical projection' simulation model, so that's a good place to look.

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  22. Not really news. by mrthoughtful · · Score: 1

    I'm not a physicist - and I worked most of this out myself years ago - cf. http://slashdot.org/journal/35...

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    1. Re:Not really news. by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 1

      What's news is that

      an international team of researchers has proved

      etc.

      --
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    2. Re:Not really news. by mrthoughtful · · Score: 1

      There's one huge problem with the notion of proof in physics: You never know when your theory might be superseded. You can't make a generalising statement in physics which is essentially formally proven since there is always a possibility that it would be overtaken by a newer one.

      So, your cite from tea is pretty meaningless. A 'proof' of this order is noting less than a revised theory, hence my OP

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  23. Re:more simplifications and fewer cats, please by barlevg · · Score: 5, Informative

    Ok, let me give this a crack.

    You build a box. That box contains a Geiger counter, which clicks if it detects the decay of a particle. Because you're a sick, sadistic fuck, you hook up that Geiger counter to a hammer such that if the Geiger counter detects the decay, it engages the hammer to smash a vial of poison, thus releasing it into the box. You then--because, as I said, have issues with sociopathy--put a cat in the box and close the lid. The box is very thick, completely opaque and completely soundproof. You have no way of knowing what's going on inside the box.

    You wait an hour. In that hour, you do some maths that shows that there was a 50% chance that the particle decayed, triggering the Geiger counter, which triggered the hammer to break the vial of poison, releasing the gas and killing the cat.

    The question becomes: before you open the box, is the cat alive or dead? Or is it somehow...both?

    Your gut instinct is to say, "That's stupid. Of course it's either alive or dead. How the fuck could it be both?"

    But the thing is, there are certain, non-cat-related experiments that we've done that REQUIRE the answer to be BOTH. Perhaps the simplest (and certainly the one we physicists learn about first) is the double-slit experiment. The basic idea is, you shoot a beam of something (light, gold atoms, DNA, doesn't really matter) at a slit, and it forms a pattern on a wall. It'll form this pattern even if you shoot your particles one at a time. Then, you close that slit and open another one, and fire your beam again. It forms a different pattern.

    Now you open BOTH slits and fire your beam. What happens? Well, what you'd expect is to get a pattern that's the SUM of the pattern you get through each slit. That corresponds to the idea that the particles each go through either Slit 1 or Slit 2. But instead what you get is an INTERFERENCE pattern, which can ONLY happen if the particles are going through BOTH HOLES. And recall I said earlier--you get the same pattern even if you shoot your particles one at a time, which means THE PARTICLE MUST BE INTERFERING WITH ITSELF.

    So back to the cat: is it alive or dead, or is it alive AND dead? According to the Copenhagen Interpretation, it's both. But that's why the cat thought experiment was devised in the first place: to highlight how RIDICULOUS that was. The crazy thing is that, seventy years later, we don't really have a better interpretation (at least not one that's widely accepted). So until someone builds this possibly-cat-killing box, we won't really know if the Copenhagen Interpretation is right, or whether something even stranger goes on when quantum events get amplified to the macro level.

    One final note: practically speaking, there's no way to build this experiment, because of the whole "you have no way of knowing if the cat is alive or dead without opening the box" part. Isolating a system as big as a cat-box from the rest of the universe is not really feasible. You would also have to construct a particle decay detector that did not, itself, "collapse" the waveform of the decaying particle (otherwise the paradox is resolved before you ever make it to the cat).

    Hope that was helpful!

  24. So true by justthinkit · · Score: 1

    But surprised they don't use the correct word: (a)ether.

    --
    I come here for the love
  25. Re:Isn't that obvious? by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 1

    Only if someone elects to get excited.

  26. Re:Isn't that obvious? by rwa2 · · Score: 4, Funny

    I'm not sure I see what you did there...

    Oh, now I do. Not sure where you're going with this, though..

  27. Thanks, next stop - single particles don't interfe by raymorris · · Score: 1

    Thanks for taking the time to type that out. It gave me a starting point to learn more, and I learned that if you release particles one a time, each particle makes one mark, one dot. One particle doesn't interfere with itself, and can't because the interference pattern is seen in the density of collisions over an area.

    As many of these single dots build up, they tend to cluster around an interference pattern - as if some particles went through one slit, and some particles went through the other slit. Well yeah, if I turn on the light in my living room, some photons go out through one window, some photons go through the other. Each goes through one or the other.

    So I do very much appreciate it, yet I'm as yet unsure where to go to "get it", to have the ahah moment of "this is what it's all about!"

    > you'd expect is to get a pattern that's the SUM of the pattern you get through each slit. ... But instead what you get is an INTERFERENCE pattern

    I thought the definition of the word "interference pattern" is "the SUM of two waves". So you'd expect a sum, and you get a sum, which is called an interference pattern.

    Again, thanks.

  28. Re:Isn't that obvious? by Calydor · · Score: 1

    -1, Whoosh I guess. Nice to see a few people getting it, though.

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    -=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
  29. Re:Thanks, next stop - single particles don't inte by barlevg · · Score: 3, Informative

    One particle doesn't interfere with itself, and can't because the interference pattern is seen in the density of collisions over an area.

    As many of these single dots build up, they tend to cluster around an interference pattern - as if some particles went through one slit, and some particles went through the other slit.

    Not quite--and that's really the key element of this whole thing: the particle somehow DOES interfere with itself, because the interference pattern that builds up, just one particle / one dot at a time is DIFFERENT than what you'd get if each particle only went through one hole. Imagine you're up on a ladder, dropping beanbags through a plank with two slits in it (you can cover those slits if you want), and they form a pile on the ground below. If the beanbags can only go through one slit, the pile you get on the ground is a nice mound. If you open up BOTH slits, then what you expect is TWO mounds. If the slits are close enough together, you expect those mounds to overlap, with the height at each spot being AT LEAST AS HIGH as the height you'd see dropping the beanbags through just one hole.

    But instead, what you see in the double-slit experiment is that, in between the two mounts, you get spots where there are FEWER beanbags than you'd get dropping them through just one hole. Somehow, instead of getting that 1+1=2, you're finding that 1+1=0. The beanbags are all still there--it's not like they're cancelling each other out.. they're just not all where you'd expect them.

    The ONLY WAY to explain this (that we've found so far) is if each beanbag, which, again, you're dropping one at a time, somehow goes through BOTH slits and INTERFERES WITH ITSELF. This is where the idea of wave-particle duality comes in, because the patterns that you see (with valleys where there should be ridges) are similar to what you'd see with water waves or sound waves (sound waves can cancel each other out--that's the whole premise behind noise-cancelling headphones).

    So then why don't we just say that photons (and beanbags) are waves and not particles at all? Well, because classical waves aren't "quantal," meaning you can't divide sound waves into discrete, indivisible components. You can have one "particle" of light (a photon). There's no corresponding discrete element of sound. So we say that they're particles after all, and simply adjust our thinking regarding just what a particle is and how one behaves.

  30. Re:more simplifications and fewer cats, please by Anonanonaon · · Score: 1

    Good redux.

    But I still can't help but feel that the whole common understanding (or lack thereof as it seems to be) is based on something broken.

    Then I discovered Pilot Wave Theory, which suggested to me that a particle by its nature may be surrounded by a wave.

    That is, it truly IS both at the same time; not particle and wave, but particle WITH a wave. -So that it carries both properties, but not in the magical-thinking "wooo" way. It's a particle which creates ripples as it moves and those ripples affect how it interacts with and bounces off things.

    This would make it *not* magic. Not spooky. -Hard to calculate, sure, but it just means our math to this point has been trying to describe something we were visualizing incorrectly and making poor assumptions about. (And writing altogether too much bad sci-fi around.)

    In other words.., according to the pilot wave theory, Schroedinger's cat really is dead OR alive. You still need probability maths to make educated guesses as to which it is, but it's no longer prudent (or excusable) to think that it is actually both at the same time until some egocentric scientist looks in the box. (As if the cat's opinion doesn't matter).

    So... Did that just kill all the science fairies?

  31. Newtonian physics works by DrYak · · Score: 2

    Newtonian physics looks kind of logical. It's completely wrong, but plenty of decisions are based on it. Despite that we know is wrong

    It's not *completely* wrong.
    In fact back then when it was discovered, it was experimentally proven to work within the parameters which were tested.

    The reason it was used then and is still used now is that within this range of parameters, it still works. For everyday use, what newtonian predicts is within what is observed. That's a precise enough model.

    What happened is that scientists started to consider much more extreme paramters range (higher energy, faster speed). At that point, newtonian physics breaks down. Does it mean that all the past results were wrong ? No it simply means that it's a model which is only works within a certain range of parameter (it's good for everyday use - you car) if you need to consider parameters outside this range (space ships, planets) you need a better model (general relativity, etc.)

    Note:
    - with Newtonian physics we speak about a physicis model. About a model that's used to approximate real-world events. This kind of things only get experimental proof (prediction fits the measured data or not). And will eventually get superseded by a better model which works better including for some corner cases or at higher range, smaller scales, etc. (String theory and such were born as a tentative at a better model than the dichotomy between relativity and quantum mechanics).

    - with TFA: it's a bout a *mathematical proof* that 2 different models are really actually the same stuff just expressed in different ways. Take one model, tweak the equations, and you should obtain the other model. It doesn't speak about the quality of the models themselves, just the mathematical links between them.
    (I fact, the quantum mechanics model has its limitation - what you call "wrong" and what I call "use it only within the range of value where it works the best.
    QM works best at predict very small scale phenomena (particles, waves, etc.). QM completely sucks at being useful for anything at the other end of the scale: QM is a piece of shit for astronomy. And vice versa: relativity is good when you consider stars, useless when you consider particles. 2 models, each best at a different scale. And strings being a possible future model that could simultaneously work at both scales.). ...but usually, when you have a newer model, that is better experimentally, you usually also need to find a mathematical "link" between the two, an explanation why the old model used to work and only got contradicted in your experiment.
    e.g.: take the relativity equations, and use them to compute the motion of your car - the level of energy and speed are so small, that all the "weird parts" of relativity can be approximated and rounded to 0, what remains ends up looking exactly like newtonian physics. Newtonions physicics are the same, simply with the relativity parts neglected, because they don't play any significant role at that scale.

    Science constantly bases decisions on kinda logical principles until those principles are proven to be wrong.

    Newtonian physics looks "kind of logic" because it's a model designed and tested and proven to predict a range of events (reasonable speed, low energy, human-size scale instead of particles, etc.) which happens to match what our monkey-brain have evolved to cope with.
    (our ancestrors never had to think about nuclear bombs, supernovae, tunnel effect in electronics, etc.)
    That's also why it got discovered first (we didn't first invent relativistic physics and the newtonian as handy simplified formula for some type of problems), because that's what was easiest for our monkey-brain to think about.

    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
    1. Re:Newtonian physics works by Geoffrey.landis · · Score: 1

      Newtonian physics looks kind of logical. It's completely wrong, but plenty of decisions are based on it. Despite that we know is wrong

      If you phrase Newton's force equation as F= dp/dt (rather than the F=ma formulation in your high-school physics text), it's not wrong. You just need to use the relativistic momentum p.

      (Newtonian gravity, however, is indeed wrong. Or, to be more pedantic, it is the first-order term of gravity in general relativity.)

      --
      http://www.geoffreylandis.com
    2. Re:Newtonian physics works by colinb8 · · Score: 1

      "And vice versa: relativity is good when you consider stars, useless when you consider particles"

      Why isn't the Dirac Equation a counter-example to that statement?

    3. Re:Newtonian physics works by cwsumner · · Score: 1

      Newtonian physics looks kind of logical. It's completely wrong, but plenty of decisions are based on it. Despite that we know is wrong

      It's not *completely* wrong.
      In fact back then when it was discovered, it was experimentally proven to work within the parameters which were tested.

      Um ... You cannot successfully argue a point with someone who uses binary logic consisting of a single digit.

      Interesting post, though. 8-)

  32. Re:Entropy underlies all? by Longjmp · · Score: 1

    ... It just means we probably can't tell if we're in a simulation because we're defining reality as simulate-able.

    Our universe being a simulation is certainly an interesting idea.
    However I somewhat cringe at the thought of myself running on the equivalent of a 14 yo alien's PC while his mother yells "Come up for dinner now or I'll come town and pull the plug!"

    --
    There are fewer illiterates than people who can't read.
  33. Re:Isn't that obvious? by lannocc · · Score: 1

    -1, Whoosh I guess. Nice to see a few people getting it, though.

    Read it again. You replied to an obvious reference to the uncertainty principle. The joke is now dead. Or is it?

  34. Re:Isn't that obvious? by TheRealHocusLocus · · Score: 1

    You folks are the maybecat's maybemeow.

    --
    <blink>down the rabbit hole</blink>
  35. Re:more simplifications and fewer cats, please by barlevg · · Score: 1

    So I haven't read too much into pilot wave theory, but it's a hidden variable theory, and according to Bell's Theorem, you can have hidden variables, you can have "locality" (meaning no action at a distance), but you can't have both. And most physicists would MUCH RATHER have locality than hidden variables.

  36. Re:more simplifications and fewer cats, please by Uecker · · Score: 1

    Well, the truth is we have the non-locality anyway. Whatever happens which reduces the measurement to a definite result is non-local. And - ofcourse - there has to be something like this. Stil, I am not too convinced by the pilot wave theory, but it is at least an attempt to deal with the inherent problems of QM by trying to create a proper physical theory, not by philosophical bullshit.

  37. Re:Isn't that obvious? by fightinfilipino · · Score: 4, Funny

    You have a good point...

    it's actually a set of points, but the correct point can't be observed without changing it's velocity.

  38. Re:Isn't that obvious? by davester666 · · Score: 1

    Hey, I'm the one being bombarded with particles over here!

    --
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  39. Re:Isn't that obvious? by jamiesan · · Score: 1

    Meson not liking you boson me around

  40. The difference between obvious and proven... by CFD339 · · Score: 1

    If you put some steel across a span with lots of triangle shapes to it, intuitively you may look at it and say "should hold". I'd probably walk across it willingly. I would not, however, want to count on driving trucks over it regularly without someone with engineering training and rigor applying math and proven science to the problem first.

    --
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  41. Re:Not News by reve_etrange · · Score: 1

    the rigorous mathematical framework

    Like the one shown in Volume 3, Section 2-2 of the Feynman Lectures of Physics, published 1964?

    Now this property of waves, that the length of the wave train times the uncertainty of the wave number associated with it is at least 2, is a property that is known to everyone who studies them. It has nothing to do with quantum mechanics. It is simply that if we have a finite train, we cannot count the waves in it very precisely.

    --
    .: Semper Absurda :.
  42. Re:Isn't that obvious? by Dogtanian · · Score: 1

    Stephanie is fat or homeley

    Dear Coward, you fail at google.

    Maybe he really *did* find out what she looks like, but considers her way below *his* standards...

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  43. Re:Lame by reve_etrange · · Score: 4, Informative

    Maybe you're thinking of The Feynman Lectures (which is college-level)? In Volume 3, Section 2-2 of his lectures, Feynman shows the deep relationship between the uncertainty principle and wave-particle duality. Feynman sez:

    Now this property of waves, that the length of the wave train times the uncertainty of the wave number associated with it is at least 2, is a property that is known to everyone who studies them.

    --
    .: Semper Absurda :.
  44. Ah, one slit != one wave by raymorris · · Score: 1

    Aha. That is interesting. A set of particles that move/act like a wave is one thing, but in this case one slit doesn't look like one wave, but two slits looks like two waves. Interesting.

  45. Re:Isn't that obvious? by reve_etrange · · Score: 1

    I don't know about the parent, but Feynman explained this one to me years ago. (See Feynman Lectures, Volume 3, Section 2-2).

    --
    .: Semper Absurda :.
  46. Re:more simplifications and fewer cats, please by Khashishi · · Score: 1

    I think people are moving away from the Copenhagen interpretation to other interpretations such as consistent histories, decoherence, and many worlds. Bohmian interpretation is another option, but I find it inelegant and it doesn't hold too much sway.

    Personally, I feel that consistent histories* is the best. In this interpretation, the cat is simply dead or alive. We don't know which until we check, but the cat's state didn't change when we opened the box. Note that whatever is enforcing consistency does not obey causality---the laws of quantum mechanics are essentially symmetric in time (more accurately CPT). In some sense, the future is "prewritten" though we have no way to measure it, and the current state of the universe is required to be consistent with the future state. So if the cat is dead in the future where the box is opened, it's already dead with the box closed.

    I prefer the "block universe" depiction of the universe as a stationary 4D object, since it seems to be easiest to reconcile with relativity. Relativity of simultaneity makes no sense if the future isn't already written. We call this 4D universe object a history, and all the events in the history have to be consistent with laws of physics. It makes no difference if you think of the past causing the future or the future causing the past: they are just there and neither is created from the other. In the many worlds interpretation, every possible (e.g. consistent) history exists, but I think one is sufficient.

    *I might be mistaken on what consistent histories is. My description is my personal interpretation, which might coincide with the definition of consistent histories.

  47. Possibly new approach by johanwanderer · · Score: 1

    On the other hand, New Scientist reported on a new approach with leaky (non-infinite) multiverse that can explain away both of these uncertainties. It's at least an interesting read.

    Ghost universes kill Schrödinger's quantum cat

    To quote:
    "THE wave function has collapsed – permanently. A new approach to quantum mechanics eliminates some of its most famous oddities, including the concept of quantum objects being both a wave and a particle, and existing in multiple states at once."

    1. Re: Possibly new approach by lucien86 · · Score: 2

      Its all academic anyway. Also non-physicist, working in the field of cutting edge Strong AI. - A piece of maths I was working on turned out to solve the real value roots to imaginary numbers.. Fifteen years later - can point out that the real error is in general relativity, figured out how to rewrite the spatial model to include an absolute FTL frame. (all it requires is a limit rule on the size of physical dimensional time restricting it to quantum scales.)
      Once you have an absolute frame model quantum physics rewrites itself as well. In the wave particle duality, particle like behaviour generally involves STL interactions, and wave like behaviour involves FTL interactions.. In an FTL model of quantum physics the whole of quantum physics is fully deterministic and uncertainty principle can be made to disappear completely (locally) but only in interactions involving extended FTL coherence..
      Of course the joke is that it is all academic because physicists don't like their sacred cows being slaughtered.. and the biggest sacred cow of all is general relativity.

      --
      Below the speed of light Special Relativity is one of the most accurate theories in physics - above the speed of light..
  48. Re:Not News by Immerman · · Score: 1

    Probably not, that sounds like a qualitative observation. How exactly would you use that to translate an arbitrary new discovery about the properties of particle/wave duality into an equally rigorous description of uncertainty properties?

    --
    --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
  49. Re:Lame by catmistake · · Score: 2

    When did it become the "quantum" uncertainty principle? I'm sure Heisenberg was not happy when we switched to the truncated "uncertainty principle," and even further to simply "uncertainty." But who's the asshole that added a superfluous and nearly meaningless word to an old concept? WHO REBOOTED? AND WHY?

  50. Re:Not News by reve_etrange · · Score: 1

    The quote I used comes at the conclusion of a mathematical demonstration - here's the link. I've now had the time to read the new paper (TFA), and they actually credit Feynman right at the start for having the general insight. Feynman's discussion is for a single uncertainty relation (position and momentum for a "particle" composed of a finite wave train), while TFA is broadly general and cached in terms of the modern entropy-based approached to uncertainty. So I think you're right, in that Feynman's treatment can't really be called a "framework" - it only deals with a single problem.

    Really the only problem here is gross overstatement in TFS...but what else is new.

    --
    .: Semper Absurda :.
  51. Woman ex-hacker collaborates in quantum breakthru by colinb8 · · Score: 1

    which is what the summary could have said

      Stephanie Wehne

    Stephanie Wehner is a physicist and computer scientist at QuTech, Delft University of Technology ... She studied at the University of Amsterdam and obtained her Ph.D. at CWI, before moving to Caltech as a postdoctoral researcher ... From 2014, she is an associate professor at QuTech, Delft University of Technology. Together with Jonathan Oppenheim she discovered that the amount of non-locality in quantum mechanics is limited by the uncertainty principle. She is also known for introducing the noisy-storage model in quantum cryptography. Before academia Wehner was involved in computer security, for example kernel rootkits, and for a while worked as a professional hacker.

  52. Re: Lame by Darinbob · · Score: 1

    I think it does exist. It's the word "beta".

  53. Re:more simplifications and fewer cats, please by strikethree · · Score: 1

    But instead what you get is an INTERFERENCE pattern, which can ONLY happen if the particles are going through BOTH HOLES.

    To me, this is one of the most famous physics experiments of all time... but I have never been able to find out how far apart those holes are and at what distance the holes are apart that the single photon stops traveling through both.

    It seems to me if the slits (holes?) have to be closer than the uncertainty of the position of the photon then we are dealing with something other than what we call "physical reality". Call it a sort of building block for "physical reality".

    Hm?

    --
    "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
  54. Celebrate! by Tablizer · · Score: 1

    I'm so happy about this news, I'm gonna shove a cat through 2 slits to see what happens.

    1. Re:Celebrate! by cwsumner · · Score: 1

      I'm so happy about this news, I'm gonna shove a cat through 2 slits to see what happens.

      That answer is easy! Cat scratches and blood dripping from your arms. Been there done that long ago, sort of. 8-)

  55. Re:more simplifications and fewer cats, please by Keybounce · · Score: 1

    The question becomes: before you open the box, is the cat alive or dead? Or is it somehow...both?

    Your gut instinct is to say, "That's stupid. Of course it's either alive or dead. How the fuck could it be both?"

    But the thing is, there are certain, non-cat-related experiments that we've done that REQUIRE the answer to be BOTH. Perhaps the simplest (and certainly the one we physicists learn about first) is the double-slit experiment. The basic idea is, you shoot a beam of something (light, gold atoms, DNA, doesn't really matter) at a slit, and it forms a pattern on a wall. It'll form this pattern even if you shoot your particles one at a time. Then, you close that slit and open another one, and fire your beam again. It forms a different pattern.

    The problem is, the double-slit experiment doesn't tell you a thing about the cat.

    Any single run of the cat experiment will have the cat either alive, or dead, before you open the box. 50% will be one, and 50% will be another.

    Firing electrons at slits -- 1 or 2 -- does not change the fact that the electrons do have a location. We may not be able to measure it -- measuring requires an interaction, and the interaction will change what happens. There's a number that represents that ultimate limit -- plank's constant.

    Toss electrons, one at a time, through a slit, see one pattern. Fine.
    Toss electrons, one at a time, through another slit, see a different pattern. Fine.

    In each case, you have electrons with a location. Different electrons have different locations. You don't get spots, you get slits. But slits made of one spot, then another spot, then another spot, etc. Each electron hits the screen at one point. Each electron has one location. Each cat is either alive or dead.

    Toss electrons through a pair of slits, with detectors measuring the electrons: See a pair of slits (no interference) on the screen.
    Remove the detectors: see the interference.

    But in each case, you see spot, spot, spot. The final outcome location is different. The electron's path may not be linear, it may be doing quantum tunneling from point A to B as it "moves". In the process, it may move near the second slit, before coming back. Hence, the ability to "Detect the non local slit" and change the path.

    But it has a single spot when you measure it.
    The cat has a single state.

    We may have no tools to describe it other than "We don't know, but a 40% chance of here, a 10% chance of here, a 10% chance of there, etc.". We may have no tools to describe it other than "We don't know, but a 50% chance of being alive".

    It is not both.
    It is "we don't know".
    It is "we can not possibly know -- the universe does not let us know without changing the outcome".

    But "Cannot know" is not the same as "Does not exist".

    ====

    What is the "width" of an electron?

    Since the location of an electron has uncertainty, there is a concept of "width" -- the area in which an electron might be found if you measured it.

    If you have a single slit, then you are filtering out the "wide" electrons, that are too far off.
    If you have a double slit?

    If the two slits are close enough, that the "width" of the electrons includes both slits, what does the result look like? If the slits are far enough apart, that the width does not include both, what does the result look like?

    My understanding is that if the two slits are far enough apart, you do NOT get any interference patterns.

    The basic idea is, you shoot a beam of something (light, gold atoms, DNA, doesn't really matter) at a slit, and it forms a pattern on a wall.

    But tossing bigger things at the slits means that the slits have to be closer to see the interference, and the slits have to be bigger to let the things through. Eventually, the "closeness" of the slits and the "wideness" of the slits means that you have one slit, not t

  56. nassim haramein by minyard · · Score: 1

    nassim haramein must be rolling over in his van.