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Did North Korea Really Attack Sony?
An anonymous reader writes "Many security experts remain skeptical of North Korea's involvement in the recent Sony hacks. Schneier writes: "Clues in the hackers' attack code seem to point in all directions at once. The FBI points to reused code from previous attacks associated with North Korea, as well as similarities in the networks used to launch the attacks. Korean language in the code also suggests a Korean origin, though not necessarily a North Korean one, since North Koreans use a unique dialect. However you read it, this sort of evidence is circumstantial at best. It's easy to fake, and it's even easier to interpret it incorrectly. In general, it's a situation that rapidly devolves into storytelling, where analysts pick bits and pieces of the "evidence" to suit the narrative they already have worked out in their heads.""
Worse than we got? A company that everyone loves to hate got embarrassed. Sony will likely lose a bunch of money. The FBI will get Beltway Cred for it's great Cyber sleuthing work. Hundreds of security consultants will get some nice Christmas bonuses. A few people will have their lives messed up.
What are we supposed to do to NK? Give them a stocking full of coal?
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
Kim Jong Un is exactly the type who would accept undeserved credit for a cyberattack. "What, who me? I did what? Uh ... oh really? Oh! OK, yeah everybody, I did it!"
Would you really want to send your son or daughter to die in North Korea because crackers broke into a company's servers? Also I'm not really convinced yet that NPRK's military was behind the crime.
I was suspicious of the U.S. allegations that the North Korean government was behind it when the North Koreans denied it was them. If you're going to hack somebody to make a political statement, it makes no sense to later deny that you were involved. Someone might be trying to make it look like North Korea, but I seriously doubt they were directly involved in this.
If I can be modded down for being a troll, can I be modded up for being an orc, or a balrog?
I was suspicious of the U.S. allegations that the North Korean government was behind it when the North Koreans denied it was them. If you're going to hack somebody to make a political statement, it makes no sense to later deny that you were involved. Someone might be trying to make it look like North Korea, but I seriously doubt they were directly involved in this.
Wrong--Even implausible denials can be very useful in international relations. They give sympathetic expatriates and foreigners something to support and are also useful legally. The obvious example is Putin's recent doublespeak over invading Ukraine. It is only a paper shield but it helps confuse the issues slightly, delaying and discouraging organized response of any kind.
As another example, since the UN Charter as passed, open wars of aggression have been outlawed. As a result, there have been a whole lotta agressive "self-defense."
As another example, Israel-Palestine. Regardless of which side you're on, you'll see the other side doing what you think is lying about something or the other.
NK denied it, rather than taking credit.
Their tools are widely distributed, so faking the source is really easy.
The US government is weird combination of ineptitude and self-aggrandizement, so the FBI claims are likely pure BS designed to make the claimants look good (they were SOOO sure that had profiled the Yosemite killer years ago that it only took two more deaths to prove them wrong).
But I wouldn't mind sending our forces in to remove the North Korean government and return the land to South Korea...
I'm with you in spirit on that, but there's a tiny little problem with actually doing it: China actually likes North Korea for some reason, and would get very, very upset with us for even so much as supporting a South Korean invasion of the North, let alone us spearheading the removal of the (sorry, have to say it) legitimate and sovereign leadership of North Korea. In short, it would be the start of World War III (or, 'The Last War', if you prefer). I'm sure Russia would pile on, too, since they're buddies with China. Everything else would pretty much go to Hell in a handbasket pretty quickly from there.
I, too, however, am beginning to wonder if this whole incident was staged by Sony as a gigantic publicity stunt.
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
The same article over at boing boing suggested that a sacked ex employee had released the files.
http://michaelsmith.id.au
Um... I hate to be the non-technical person that points this out, but...
The evidence that implicates NK on the previous attacks - is it the same evidence used to assign blame in the current attack?
Is this citing the conclusions based on the same evidence/situation from previous attacks to give legitimacy to the evidence in the current attack?
What a scam! Claim something on flimsy evidence, then cite those claims to give legitimacy to the flimsy evidence!
I wonder... can I do this sort of thing in the scientific literature? Hmmmm...
What would you think if NK released a movie about killing a US president?
They've released propaganda films about nuking us. We didn't mobilize the cyber or real armies over the matter; I guess that's the difference between a modern nation-state and one held together with a pygmy's cult of personality....
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
Coal?! Definitely not! That would just help them stay warm through the winter. Send dirt instead.
No, Occam's Razor said the simplest answer is most likely true. The OP didn't go on a flight of fantasy, you did. Nation state hacks corporation with possible major diplomatic consequences over a B-movie? Pull the other one, it's got WMDs on it.
I was suspicious of the U.S. allegations that the North Korean government was behind it when the North Koreans denied it was them.
Yes, because the North Koreans are forthright and honest chaps, their statements are always unbiased and true...
If you're going to hack somebody to make a political statement, it makes no sense to later deny that you were involved.
The North Koreans do not operate on the same logical reasoning that most of the rest of the world does. Trying to apply what most of the world defines as "making sense" to what North Korea says and does in not as straight forward as you might think. They have often denied involvement in thing later proven.
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
I do not think you know what Occam's razor is. It does not mean you need conclusive evidence to believe in something. It means the simplest explanation tends to be the best one, other things being equal.
Actually, that's not what it says. It says that plurality is not to be posited without necessity, i.e. don't add complexity to reach a conclusion if it can be reached without adding it.
The simplest solution here isn't that it's North Korea acting based on an unreleased movie they probably hadn't even heard of before this whole debacle, displaying hacking skills not seen before, and then denying it.
Much simpler solutions could be disgruntled former employees or someone doing it for the lulz. It's not like Sony hasn't been a magnet for the latter, with all the previous hacks.
In any case, unless the three letter agencies are withholding crucial information, there's not enough to go on here to point the fingers at Kim Jong-Un. I'm sure there are people who would blame him no matter what, because frankly he's an asshole of Goatse dimensions, but the evidence needs to be far more solid than this.
But I wouldn't mind sending our forces in to remove the North Korean government and return the land to South Korea...
I would. Fund the pointless, unjust war yourself, if you want it so badly; don't take my money to do it. I don't much care for randomly invading sovereign countries and killing thousands to install puppet governments that our government likes.
And South Korea's government may be better, but it's far from freedom-minded.
So I hear it was an inside job, how did NK get a spy infiltrated into Sony so quickly? Does NK really have that many spy assets all over the U.S. that they can whistle up as needed? Or was this an elaborate operation set up when the movie was first announced and they managed to infiltrate a NK citizen into Sony pictures in the time it took the make the movie? How does this all actually go down? FYI, NK is pretty computer illiterate over all compared to most countries and nearly every country on the planet is better positioned than NK to pull this stunt off along with a whole bunch of independent yahoos. Unless there is U.S. born traitor working for NK, seems that the possible suspects could be narrowed down pretty quickly. I am NOT saying NK was framed, but I AM saying there are a lot a people out there to do stuff for reasons I wouldn't and more real data is needed.
I wouldn't mind at all if North Korea were suddenly free and part of South Korea. Almost everyone in North Korea would be far better off. However, doing so by military force is utterly INSANE.
Even if China didn't intervene, the fact that millions of South Koreans live within artillery range of the border with North Korea means that in a shooting war with North Korea we'd probably be looking at tens to hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties just for the South alone, and probably as many or more North Korean civilians just from economic hardships and displacement - and that's leaving out the North's ballistic missles, nukes/etc. So even if the worst case scenario doesn't occur, the minimum expected result is already horrific enough that no sane person would want to pursue it.
As for it being a publicity stunt, I considered that too at first, but Sony is going to get hammered so badly by the stuff that's been released that the lawyers' fees alone will outweigh any http://it.slashdot.org/story/14/12/24/1757224/did-north-korea-really-attack-sony#additional profit they could make off the movie. It would have to be something like a shady coalition of greedy entertainment industry lawyers, or a cabal of deranged Seth Rogen/James Franco fans trying to boost the movie's popularity... but at that point we're going completely off the deep end.
I'm with you in spirit on that, but there's a tiny little problem with actually doing it: China actually likes North Korea for some reason, and would get very, very upset with us for even so much as supporting a South Korean invasion of the North
Would they? Perhaps, yes...
Would they DO anything other than wave their arms around? I'm pretty sure I could make sure they don't...
Taiwan and the disputed seas off Japan are far more important to China than North Korea is... I imagine I could make a deal with them over that. They might still wave their arms around, but even Japan may be willing to give up some of the disputed islands or do a joint oil development deal with China (oil is really what it is about there) in return for North Korea going away.
It just takes a President who is a leader and not a reactor and follower, and we really haven't had one of those since Reagan. (Bush is no better than Obama in this case, so I'm not picking sides there)
(sorry, have to say it) legitimate and sovereign leadership of North Korea.
So was the Nazi government in Germany, but we didn't let that stop us.
History is written by the victor. It sounds cold and heartless, but it is the truth. The current leadership of North Korea is only sovereign and legitimate until someone else comes along and knocks them off.
After all, England used to be the sovereign and legitimate government of America, or at least the 13 colonies. Shall we give that back? ;)
I'm sure Russia would pile on, too, since they're buddies with China.
Don't be silly, Putin needs a way out, I'd give him one...
In return for Ukraine joining NATO and Russia signing a treaty with Ukraine acknowledging its sovereignty, Russia could keep Crimea and we would recognize that. Crimea shouldn't have changed hands the way it did, but it happened and isn't likely to be undone, and it was Russia's just 50 years ago anyway.
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Everyone has their price, and most people have something else more important to them than any given item, other than of course the most important thing.
The islands off Japan are not as important as removing North Korea, Russia behaving is more important than who controls Crimea, etc.
If you try to lead people along by the nose, saying things like Bush did "you're either with us or against us", they just fall over and fight back. Give them a better option and most people will take it.
There is, however, possibly the world's largest repositories of rare earth metals.
1) No concrete evidence that a Sovereign County hacked into Sony, but POTS says he thinks they did anyways
2) Movie is probably total piece of sh*t anyways, who cares?
3) Even if NK did it, it is not an attack on US but a foreign corp with some US holding, but still a Japanese company, why don't they saber rattle instead of us?
4) The whole thing could have been PR stunt from Sony to advertise the movie
5) Why didn't POTS just tell Sony "get your sh*t together, improve your security - tired of this crap, dayum!"
sigs are for losers (except to point out that sigs are for losers)
Likewise, North Korea... don't setup a new one, just make it merge with South Korea, everyone will be better off.
Except the countless thousands that will die as a result of this, the people who have their money taken to fund the useless war, and all the people who will have to rebuild the country and suffer from the rebellions that will inevitably happen. Then people will have to deal with the South Korean government, which is only better, but still far from good.
Sometimes the adults in the room have to do what is best for everyone, even if the kids don't like it.
I don't like the world police mentality, and nor do I care for preemptive warfare. They're a sovereign country and we have no pressing reason to invade unless they physically attack us.
Of course North Korea didn't attack Sony. Asking "Did North Korea really attack Sony?" is like asking "Does NORAD really track Santa?"
The North Korea story was spin to save Sony from the devastating bad publicity about the depths of their business and technological incompetence. (The politicians who defended them will get repaid for this favor during the next election cycle. My previous comment about this from last week: They may even start using this to try to rescue that disaster of a movie. "You have to see 'The Interview'! To support free speech and America!")
The Dear Leader Of The Free World announcing "don't blame poor Sony, they were helpless victims of the evil North Koreans" totally changed the media story, saving Sony huge $$$ in both public perception and future lawsuits.
But just how America's President and trillion-dollar national security state could get things so wrong - but should always be trusted when saying who's bad and deserves to be killed, like some kind of psycho-Santa delivering death from his sleigh filled with drones - will never be questioned.
Businesses and politicians will never stop lying when it works this well.
Merry Christmas.
Used to be that East met West in Hong Kong, and the water kept the Western cultural norms from corrupting the peasantry.
Now, South Korea is the island, and North Korea is the water.
-1 Uncomfortable Truth
No, I wouldn't...
But I wouldn't mind sending our forces in to remove the North Korean government... ...A simple 2-3% tax on corporate earnings from the new United Korea until the cost is repaid, including a healthy payment to the family of any US solder who dies.
Nothing too big, so that it isn't painful enough to cause problems, but something to show that they have to do their part in paying for our services.
"The Iraq war will pay for itself." Dick Cheney, is that you?
It still gives me a little shock when I see someone express such breathtaking arrogance and ignorance.
You added a new twist, though, I have to hand it to you for suggesting that we levy a tax after "liberating" North Korea, to *literally* pay blood money to families of soldiers who die.
Most of the United States' problems around the world are exacerbated by the enforcer mentality behind much of our foreign policy, and you want to turn the U.S. into an openly mercenary state.
Bravo, sir, bravo. Tell the orderly to stop stealing your meds.
How about a compromise - let's let Sony pay for the war. Just give them a one-time legal exception, let them hire whatever mercenaries (excuse me... "private military contractors") they want, then invade. It would cost Sony probably one or two years' profits, but they might be able to get other corporations to buy in under the idea that they'd be the next to be attacked.
That does leave the question of what to do with NK afterwards, but we can deal with that once it becomes an actual issue.
Given what the D stands for, you are correct to change it to something else at random. N for Nazi seems a fitting alternative for the FPRK.
Usually any country with a form of government (Democratic, Republic, Socialist, etc.) in the name is not that form of government.Doubly so when it is 'Democratic'.
Any insufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology.