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Romanian Cybersecurity Law Will Allow Warrantless Access To Data

Posted by Soulskill on from the what-happens-in-romania-stays-in-romania dept.

jfruh writes: The Romanian Parliament has passed a bill that will allow its security services widespread access to data on privately owned services without a warrant, and once the president signs it, it will become law. The law would have widespread impact beyond Romania because the country is a hub for IT outsourcing.

62 comments

  1. Idiots by Drgnkght · · Score: 5, Insightful

    because the country is a hub for IT outsourcing

    Not anymore.

    1. Re:Idiots by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      I wonder how the law treats having all your cheap Romanian labor work via thin clients, so the data never actually reside in Romania?

    2. Re:Idiots by currently_awake · · Score: 1

      Companies will only avoid the place if their customers object. Money is still king in the corporate world.

    3. Re:Idiots by AchilleTalon · · Score: 1

      Just when I learn a large enterprise here is already in the process to outsource the IT department as a whole in Romania within the next three months. A delayed Water Bucket Challenge.

      --
      Achille Talon
      Hop!
    4. Re:Idiots by currently_awake · · Score: 1

      The "Microsoft controls the servers in Ireland, so can hoover up everything they hold" case indicates that if a single person in Romania can get the data then the Romanian police can get the data.

    5. Re:Idiots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Duh. Because businesses that don't make a profit aren't.

    6. Re:Idiots by AchilleTalon · · Score: 1

      Really? It is not like the company data has no value at all. Perhaps you missed what happened recently to Sony. Getting access without a warrant and any valid reason to corporate data is a good way to spy and make a few bucks selling the information to competitors or becoming a competitor. A proposal for a many billion dollars project worth something for the competition. Many millions in fact.

      --
      Achille Talon
      Hop!
    7. Re:Idiots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good luck. Even with this happening, almost every single company will have a guy that will smile and nod when people bring up breaches, tell you that security has no ROI, so are unintrested, maybe pat you on the head.

      Lets be real here. The Sony breaches have cost the company $0, and in a month, their stock will be just as it was before, if not higher. Same with other companies that got breached. Long term, it doesn't affect their business whatsoever.

    8. Re:Idiots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Odd how Americans think the same playbook is good and privacy is bad, then when a shitty third-world craphole like Romania tries to be 'Murrican they get shit on. Fuck 'em all I say.

    9. Re:Idiots by Free+Censorship · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Odd how Americans think the same playbook is good and privacy is bad

      We're not a hivemind. I'm an American and I oppose nonsense like the NSA's mass surveillance 100%; I don't think they should even be collecting the data at all.

    10. Re:Idiots by houstonbofh · · Score: 1

      The "Microsoft controls the servers in Ireland, so can hoover up everything they hold" case indicates that if a single person in Romania can get the data then the Romanian police can get the data.

      I think the South African Police might have something to say about that. Just as an example, of course... http://www.datacentermap.com/s...

    11. Re:Idiots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What are you talking about? "The Interview" will probably make a lot less money because all of the movie theaters that 90% of people go to aren't showing it. Some of the leaked emails are very embarrassing and will probably cost them a lot in lost goodwill with business partners, which will translate into less profits.

    12. Re:Idiots by jedidiah · · Score: 2

      Not even all American SENATORS believe in that "playbook". Never mind the actual population.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    13. Re:Idiots by ColdWetDog · · Score: 2

      What are you talking about? "The Interview" will probably make a lot less money because all of the movie theaters that 90% of people go to aren't showing it. Some of the leaked emails are very embarrassing and will probably cost them a lot in lost goodwill with business partners, which will translate into less profits.

      Goodwill? In Hollywood?

      You must be joking.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    14. Re:Idiots by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      From what I hear, the movie is crap anyway, so Sony is likely making more money off of it because of all the hype and press surrounding it. (They're selling it as pay-per-view on their own website.) The whole incident may have even been orchestrated by Sony as a giant publicity scheme, who knows.

    15. Re:Idiots by AchilleTalon · · Score: 2

      Since they had to change all the IT infrastructure to clear it from any virii, it already costs them a pile of money. Now, they face legal suits from employees and ex-employees for failing to protect personal information, including medical records, security number and full details on them. I don't know in what world you live, but it is not the real one.

      --
      Achille Talon
      Hop!
    16. Re:Idiots by AchilleTalon · · Score: 1

      I must had also all leaked information is usable by providers, customers, shareholders, anyone in the future to negociate more tightly agreements, if any at all, with Sony. This will also cost them money. I believe you don't have a faint idea of the magnitude and impact of this for Sony Pictures.

      Suppose you are a script, scenarist, producer, director or any other important job in the making of a movie. How would you feel doing business with Sony given the way they protect your work? It is very likely someone will seek to work with someone else but Sony Pictures.

      --
      Achille Talon
      Hop!
    17. Re:Idiots by Vlad_the_Inhaler · · Score: 1

      You were doing just fine until you got to The whole incident may have even been orchestrated by Sony as a giant publicity scheme, who knows.

      Given the scope and content of those mails, a decision like that would have been in the mails themselves.

      --
      Mielipiteet omiani - Opinions personal, facts suspect.
    18. Re:Idiots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What are you talking about? "The Interview" will probably make a lot less money because all of the movie theaters that 90% of people go to aren't showing it.

      No-one would have watched it if it weren't for the hype so no, Sony didn't suffer from the breach. There were only some collateral among the employees.

    19. Re:Idiots by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      You don't think they could have filtered that stuff out of the mails?

      I know, it's a stretch, I just put it out there as a remote possibility. Conspiracy theories aren't always wrong, every once in a while they turn out to be true.

    20. Re:Idiots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not even all American SENATORS believe in that "playbook". Never mind the actual population.

      Just, alas, enough of them to be dangerous.

    21. Re: Idiots by shonangreg · · Score: 1

      About as likely as Don Lemon's hare-brained idea that the Malaysia Airlines flight was sucked into a black hole. Sony didn't hack itself, though it could have been an inside job. That was the language of the first threats.

  2. Great! by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 0
    Now maybe they'll shut down the enormous amount of spam that comes from that part of the world.

    On second thought, it pumps hard currency into the economy, so I guess not.

    --
    "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    1. Re:Great! by kv9 · · Score: 1

      Keep trying http://www.spamhaus.org/statis...

      --
      Stop Computers/Cars Analogies on S
  3. Correction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1

    "The country is a hub for IT out-sourcing." well it will be known as having been such, up until 2015. I wonder how hard this will hit economy and jobs. Clever politicians.

  4. LOL fascists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1

    Europe seems to be accelerating its rediscovering of its fascist roots.

    1. Re:LOL fascists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      EUROPE? You mean a single state that always had incredibly strong ties with the US and even was a base for torture before joining the EU..
      And guess what, this is also because of the US because we all know You're the little bribing Nazi of the world ;)

      Bribery gets you everywhere, also BTW, google every dictator the US has put in power and support "let's talk about fascism"
      spreading the freedom of the waterboard...

    2. Re:LOL fascists by Kjella · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It might be news to you, but capitalism - at least in the Russian variety and I wouldn't hold my breath on the US variety as of late - means a lot of the wealth has been accumulated on a few hands. I'm not sure that people are worse off on an absolute scale, but there's actually quite many feeling that they're worse off compared to everybody else. In Greece for example SYRIZA - the "Coalition of the Radical Left" - has been up to 27% in the polls lately. That's the birthplace of democracy, not some shithole that's never known anything different. Which I suppose is nicer than the way Germans reacted in the 1930s to the economic buttfucking of the Allies, I guess. In a dysfunctional economy most everything will seem like it's worth trying and they can be very productive in unconventional ways. Like the German war machine that nearly broke Europe's back in WWII was build by a country allegedely on the brink of bankruptcy. But money is money and guns in guns and what the lacked in the former they got plenty in the latter. Don't underestimate Russia and China just because they're not western.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    3. Re:LOL fascists by FooAtWFU · · Score: 2

      You know, some day some group is going to rise up against a crony-infested system designed to funnel money to the wanton rapacious capitalist elites, and will replace it with a crony-resistant system -- instead of just replacing it with a differently awful crony-infested system using the leftism de jure.

      --
      The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
    4. Re: LOL fascists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1

      It won't happen. This is not the late 1800 anymore. You can't be clandestine anymore. Any such group will be detected, hunted down and destroyed mercilessly and publicly, so people will learn the lesson and accept that resistance is not only futile, but dangerous to anyone even thinking about it and their families. The 1% has won. Forever.

    5. Re: LOL fascists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1 nuke, 10 million 'rebels' dead. Welcome to the new dark ages under the old world order.

  5. Outsourcing agreements... by The+New+Guy+2.0 · · Score: 2

    Remember when writing outsourcing agreements that law changes could happen, and should allow you to void the agreement.

  6. Ceaucescu... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    ...would have liked as much control over private data.

    Compared to today's Free world (of course, to the other side, they were the Free world), the former Soviet bloc countries had very little knowledge of citizen activity. The thing we've learned is that it's more effective to propagandize than to force, because all that really matters is the perception of freedom.

    1. Re:Ceaucescu... by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      Allegedly Erich Mielke (former head of the East German Stasi) said concerning the various forms of surveillance we're getting used against us "If we had these things, we'd still have communism today!"

      Well, since we have them, we still have capitalism...

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    2. Re:Ceaucescu... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Allegedly Erich Mielke (former head of the East German Stasi) said concerning the various forms of surveillance we're getting used against us "If we had these things, we'd still have communism today!"

      He can dream. But DDR and the Stasi was not dissolved by groups they failed to spy on. DDR began its fall when inept leaders spoke without thinking - on TV. They had plans to allow people to cross the border. They wanted to do so in a 'controlled way', but mistakenly said the borders would open IMMEDIATELY. Large amounts of people went to the borders - immediately after. Then they had the choice between letting them out or having a bloodbath so large it might have disrupted the state anyway. So they gave up, and DDR was unworkable without that iron curtain.

      Mielke forgets that the "surveillance used against us" on the open internet only can exist because we have a open internet in the first place. If the DDR had that, they would NOT be able to keep their own dirty secrets either. Sure, they would catch careless people criticizing the government on the net. But they would not be able to avoid some accountability - they would not have the immunity the DDR leaders enjoyed. Look at Putin - he rules by being popular with 'enough' people - just like in the west. Improving the economy and creating some sense of "greatness" from military victories works. Leaders of non-democratic states still needs support from a significant fraction of people - or they won't be able to man their secret police forces.

      With more unfiltered information, propaganda don't work so well. You can't hide everything. There will be leaks, and they will be believed. So you need some support, for the opposition KNOWS when they outnumber the secret police - and then the only question left is how much they have to loose in a revolt.

    3. Re:Ceaucescu... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...would have liked as much control over private data.

      Compared to today's Free world (of course, to the other side, they were the Free world), the former Soviet bloc countries had very little knowledge of citizen activity. The thing we've learned is that it's more effective to propagandize than to force, because all that really matters is the perception of freedom.

      But we got guns!

    4. Re:Ceaucescu... by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      What fascinates me to no end is that the people here still believe what they're told by media and politics. People actually do believe them.

      Maybe because we don't have any "West-TV" that could tell us that our emperors have no clothes.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    5. Re:Ceaucescu... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Knowledge, resources, and willpower, and opportunity/warning are like having an infinite number of guns that never run out of bullets and get bigger calibers/velocities over time against an aggressor. Of course, the whole point of unlimited warfare is to eliminate the foundations of a society until they're /forced/ to comply since they no longer have those things.

  7. Romania = Shithole by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Recent news revealed that Romania and Poland built torture camps for CIA in their respective countries. I'm not surprised at this news.

  8. Outsourcing is why its needed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A hub of outsourcing unfortunately doesn't only deal in legal activity - it is entirely possible that this law is to combat the hosting of prohibited content i.e. child porn, gambling services, illegal drug markets, arms traders, slaves,etc. and this law is required to enable better targeting of those vices.

    Romanians do have a history of dealing with oppression violently and with lethal consequences for the oppressors, so this law msut be used carefully.

    1. Re:Outsourcing is why its needed by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      Were they having trouble getting warrants for those sorts of investigations? Even a judiciary that isn't effectively a rubber stamp usually pays attention to that kind of thing.

    2. Re:Outsourcing is why its needed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So in other words, they have to sacrifice freedom & privacy for safety, ignoring the fact that freedom and privacy are more important than safety to begin with. Look, I don't care one bit about bogeymen like child porn or gambling services (ha!); any good country would reject infringing upon people's liberties for such a worthless reason. Sadly, there don't seem to be all that many good countries, if any at all.

      What a depressing state of affairs, where there are people on Slashdot who are duped into fearing the child porn bogeyman, supporting safety over checks and balances and freedom, and suggesting that the law must merely be used carefully to avoid the same abuses that we've seen from all governments throughout the human race's history. This time, authorities will be perfect beings and will make no mistakes, mark my words!

    3. Re:Outsourcing is why its needed by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      And why would it have been any problem to get a warrant against these businesses? You know, that old fashioned "due process" kind of way?

      If your answer is corruption, be prepared to be laughed at and asked why the heck this elimination of privacy would make corruption harder instead of easier. It's one less branch of the system you need to bribe.

      Trading freedom for safety does not work. For a proof, just look at the ultimate exchange of freedom for security: A jail. Now, do you want to tell me that inmates are SAFE in there?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    4. Re:Outsourcing is why its needed by arbiter1 · · Score: 1

      I bet that is the BS they try to shovel to the public when they ask. They tried that crap with SOPA in the US claiming it was to combat child porn. Which its not what they claim they want to do with a bill but what they are going to do and what it lets them do.

    5. Re:Outsourcing is why its needed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except when crime rings threaten and bribe judges to prevent it.

    6. Re: Outsourcing is why its needed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wrong. Safety is more important that "freedom". Safety has value, it's easily perceived, it brings value to communities. Safety means well-being and investments. What does your "freedom" bring? Can you tell a businessman "build your enterprise here, we're free" and expect him to invest in your community? And what "freedom" we're talking about? The freedom to go around armed? The freedom to spout hate speech? No, thank you. A society made by adult people is concerned with balance, compromise and results: my rights not to be shot and not to starve trump your imaginary "freedom" any day. And since we're the majority, you will have to grow up and accept that this is the way of the world. :)

    7. Re:Outsourcing is why its needed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's easier and less risky to buy the cops. Without the need for a warrant it's a piece of cake to harass whoever you want and planting evidence is a non-issue.
      Allowing for warrantless searches is only good if you are going after people that you can't prove are doing anything wrong.

    8. Re: Outsourcing is why its needed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Enjoy your 'safety' when people are legally allowed to just kill or imprison you just because they feel like it. Can't explain why you're guilty (or what offense) to you, because you know, 'secrets'. Do you have something to hide, citizen? Yes? Oh, OK prison for you. No? OK, then we'll just assume you're obstructing justice - again, prison. Complain? Oh, that's resisting and resistors get one to the back of the head in their own front yards. Yeah, they tried this in East Europe and Asia and it worked so well, didn't it?

      If someone can stop hate speech 100% of the time, they'll certainly not allow racial/gender/etc. minorities' or women's rights groups to talk. Censorship ALWAYS supports the people who want to oppress you.

      Gotta be trolling about the guns - guess who owns the worst, most dehumanizing weapons and has proven a will to use them against millions, not thousands. They want the right by force, to kill all your children, and take all your food, before raping you and shooting your husband as he's forced to watch. People arguing for gun restrictions of 'the wrong people' are not your friends, ladies. Weight advantage alone means that a woman is at a disadvantage in a fight. Same applies to old people.

  9. Not for long by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Laws like these are what causes immediate removal of contracts and establishments. It is cheap to do business in Romania, but there are lots of African countries that are just as cheap and sill more Eurasian Countries with cheap labour costs and stable government. The unemployed Romanians will move for jobs. All that will happen is Romania will be back in the dark ages again.

  10. Your DATA are belonging to us by __aanbvm4272 · · Score: 1

    I Soviet Romania all your Data Blocs are belonging to us. You can have them back when we are though with them.

  11. Cloudaki by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This will not help if the data are encrypted: http://igg.me/at/cloudaki/x/9426494

    1. Re: Cloudaki by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then you will be ordered to surrender the keys. If you won't comply you will be imprisoned. If you have forgotten them you will be imprisoned. If you have destroyed them you will be imprisoned. You see, there's nothing you can do. You can't fight the State. Give it up.

    2. Re:Cloudaki by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Warning: link goes to IndieGogo for yet another magical encryption box.

  12. Tax Evasion and Minimisation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You do all the right things, going through banks lawyers and accountants to sock away a few million dollars here and there.
    And via SWIFT and other wire transfers, nobody 'big' rarely gets caught.

    The your banks or some related party goes through a cloud, and you have someone from Romanian Intelligence blackmailing you.
    Those underpaid Romanians should trawl what they got good and hard, so they can take blackmail to the next level.

  13. The difference between Romania and the US is, by Black+Copter+Control · · Score: 2

    The Romanian actually passed a law making the stuff they do 'legal',

    --
    OS Software is like love: The best way to make it grow is to give it away.
  14. Tax prep. info by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Suppose I take my tax information to a tax preparation company, and they outsource the tax preparation (without telling me) to some company in Romania. Will the Romaian government be able to look at my name, address, SSN, email address, income, investment info, and bank routing info (for e-payment of taxes) without a warrant?

    1. Re:Tax prep. info by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes.

      And anyone capable of bribing Romanian officials could then get that info about you. Wages are low in Romania; officials are underpaid.

      So take care who you allow handling your sensitive information. You may want to get a written guarantee (contract) that they don't outsource your information directly or through subcontractors. (And you might want a clause about damages payable in case of leaks. Makes them take security seriously.)

      For similiar reasons, I don't trust American businesses with info. If the NSA wants details on me, they may be able to get them - but not without breaking local laws wich includes possibilities of international incidents. And by staying local, no worries about Romanian security either.

      One usually has a good idea about local law and local governmental traps - and can manuever accordingly. Foreign rules are always very different - especially the unwritten ones. Don't set yourself up for nasty surprises.

  15. Hold on a minute by silviuc · · Score: 1

    The law in question has not yet been passed by the president and has already been contested at the Constitutional Court. There it will most likely be declared unconstitutional thus illegal and void.

  16. Like U.S. by artlu · · Score: 3, Informative

    As most people are unaware, after the passing of the Dodd Frank reform act (post 2008 financial crisis), the U.S. gave blanket subpoena power to the civil agencies of this country with respect to financial records. Do your research, and remember The Market is not Random.

    --
    -------
    artlu.net
  17. its also hub for illegal hacking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    its also a hub for illegal hacking by and for hollywood....

  18. The law has been challenged at the highest court by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    After the vote, the senators figured out they had no idea what they actually voted and one party challenged the law at the Constitutional Court. My hope is that, based in prior cases, they will throw the law out.

  19. European Convention on Human Rights by MrL0G1C · · Score: 1

    This law seems to be in contravention of several sections of the European Convention on Human Rights which Romania is party to.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    --
    Waterfox - a Firefox fork with legacy extension support, security updates and better privacy by default.