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10 Years In, Mars Rover Opportunity Suffers From Flash Memory Degradation

astroengine writes Mars Exploration Rover Opportunity has been exploring the Martian surface for over a decade — that's an amazing ten years longer than the 3-month primary mission it began in January 2004. But with its great successes, inevitable age-related issues have surfaced and mission engineers are being challenged by an increasingly troubling bout of "amnesia" triggered by the rover's flash memory. "The problems started off fairly benign, but now they've become more serious — much like an illness, the symptoms were mild, but now with the progression of time things have become more serious," Mars Exploration Rover Project Manager John Callas, of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, Calif., told Discovery News.

105 comments

  1. Memory Bristles by smittyoneeach · · Score: 2

    Memory bristles
    Like Scottish thistles
    Make operation tough
    Plus the interplanetary stuff
    Burma Shave

    --
    Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
    1. Re:Memory Bristles by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tin Whiskers
      cut them with fiskars
      the end.

    2. Re:Memory Bristles by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Anonymous Coward tried hard
      First post to kick in the nard
      The wee faux haiku
      Reeked of doo-doo
      Next time don't go Full Retard.

    3. Re:Memory Bristles by electrosoccertux · · Score: 4, Informative

      guys, that's not how the Burma Shave meme works.

  2. I'm sorry by rossdee · · Score: 5, Funny

    But to claim it under warranty, you have to return it to the manufacturer

    1. Re:I'm sorry by thoriumbr · · Score: 5, Funny

      Too bad you must pay the shipping...

    2. Re:I'm sorry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The purchase was made under a promotion we were running in 2004, so it's not eligible for the extended warranty. We can tell by the SKU number.

    3. Re:I'm sorry by Beat+The+Odds · · Score: 2

      Too bad you must pay the shipping...

      Both ways....

    4. Re:I'm sorry by itzly · · Score: 2

      And try to find the original packaging...

    5. Re:I'm sorry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I'm feel confident that exposing the product to exit velocity g-forces, cosmic rays, near absolute zero temperatures, the turmoil of reentry, landing via beach ball, ten years of unshielded solar radiation, and continuous operation in the untested environment of an alien planet 40x the projected survivability of the hardware in question, likely voids some obscure provision of the warranty.

    6. Re:I'm sorry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And try to find the original packaging...

      That one, we have: Heat Shield Impact Site.

    7. Re:I'm sorry by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      You have to admit, "it burned up on re-entry" is a pretty good excuse for losing it though!

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    8. Re:I'm sorry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uphill, in the solar wind.

    9. Re:I'm sorry by FatdogHaiku · · Score: 1

      Uphill, in the solar wind.

      At minus 148 degrees Fahrenheit (in the shade)

      --
      You have the right to remain sentient. If you give up the right to remain sentient, you will be elected to public office
    10. Re:I'm sorry by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 1

      Uphill, in the solar wind.

      At minus 148 degrees Fahrenheit (in the shade)

      Both ways,

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    11. Re: I'm sorry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But remember. UPS will pick up.

    12. Re:I'm sorry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A common clause in the terms of warranty of the next year's SSD drives: "Warranty voided if subjected to interplanetary space travel."

  3. Martian Maintenance Infrastructure by Rob+Riggs · · Score: 1

    It is time to start building out the martian rover maintenance infrastructure so these guys can be towed in for repairs and upgrades.

    --
    the growth in cynicism and rebellion has not been without cause
    1. Re:Martian Maintenance Infrastructure by AaronLS · · Score: 1

      "No, I'd say it's time for you to learn what "one-way" means. Mars ain't around the damn corner."

      "martian rover maintenance infrastructure" sounds like the repair infrastructure is on Mars, so you would just bring it back to that location on Mars.

      "Calm down there"

      His post was pretty calm. Yours... not so much.

    2. Re:Martian Maintenance Infrastructure by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, Opportunity let its Astro-Afro-Antarctico-Amer-Asian Auto Association membership lapse.

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    3. Re:Martian Maintenance Infrastructure by kilodelta · · Score: 1

      Yeah - Spirit and Opportunity went far beyond their 90 Sol limit. And the issues they faced were determining factors in Curiosity being nuclear powered.

    4. Re: Martian Maintenance Infrastructure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just caught that episode late night. Good 'ole septuple-A!

    5. Re:Martian Maintenance Infrastructure by matfud · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure where you are going with that. Both rovers are still active even if one is stuck. The solar panels seem to work for them even if there have been issues wrt dust on them. Curiosity is Nuclear powered as it is much much larger and has vastly larger power requirements to even move let alone perform experiments.

  4. A good run, and maybe more to come by hattig · · Score: 1

    At least they have identified a fix. But it surely won't be too long before more of the flash memory banks start exhibiting similar behaviour.

    Still, 44x longer lifespan than originally planned == win in anyone's books.

    1. Re:A good run, and maybe more to come by B33rNinj4 · · Score: 2

      I agree. It's had a fantastic run, but it'll be a real loss when it finally stops working.

    2. Re:A good run, and maybe more to come by AchilleTalon · · Score: 2

      Like everyone of us.

      --
      Achille Talon
      Hop!
    3. Re:A good run, and maybe more to come by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not all of us have had a fantastic run.

      I sure as fuck havent, cant wait till its over, so no more stress and misery.

      Lifes a bitch and then you die.

    4. Re:A good run, and maybe more to come by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Loss of life is to be mourned, but only if the life was wasted.

  5. How much more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Would it have cost to ship it with a RAID array of flash drives?

    1. Re:How much more by smittyoneeach · · Score: 1

      To say nothing of a beowulf cluster.

      --
      Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
    2. Re:How much more by hattig · · Score: 1

      Well, it launched in 2004 ... and space tech is usually about a decade behind again...

      Luckily it is only one bank of flash that's bad, so they're going to work around it by disabling that one - probably means a reduction in overall capacity, but maybe it's enough to solve this issue (and/or it was overprovisioned in the first place).

      We're probably talking about kilobytes of flash here, rather than megabytes.

    3. Re:How much more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What if all of the drives degraded at the same rate?

    4. Re:How much more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      According to wiki "Opportunity's onboard computer uses a 20 MHz RAD6000 CPU with 128 MB of DRAM, 3 MB of EEPROM, and 256 MB of flash memory". So its probably LOST a few hundred kilobytes. Still those specs are pitiful by today's standards, cheap tablets today run several gigs of flash memory.

    5. Re:How much more by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      According to wiki "Opportunity's onboard computer uses a 20 MHz RAD6000 CPU with 128 MB of DRAM, 3 MB of EEPROM, and 256 MB of flash memory". So its probably LOST a few hundred kilobytes. Still those specs are pitiful by today's standards, cheap tablets today run several gigs of flash memory.

      But they're more susceptible to the effects of radiation than ever...

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  6. If only... by Andurian · · Score: 2

    If only they had over-engineered it last, this never would have happened!

    1. Re:If only... by fullmetal55 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Technically they did, if it was a 3 month mission, and here we are 10 years later saying "hey it's starting to have issues"... i think they already over-engineered it quite a bit.

  7. depends on why bank 7 has problems by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    http://mars.nasa.gov/mer/mission/status_opportunityAll.html

    I don't know that one could expect similar behavior from the other banks on a similar schedule. This is fairly old technology in terms of design and software, so I don't think they're doing any sort of automatic wear leveling, for instance. It's probably "manually leveled" if at all. For all we know, bank 7 was used the most and it's worn out. Or, it's taking more total ionizing dose (TID) because of the physical location on the card. Or, it's just a process variation when making the flash chips themselves. They were probably fabricated in 2000, most likely at Micron, since for a 2003 launch, the computer was probably assembled by early 2002, if not earlier.
    Or, the software is not optimized for "space flight use" but, rather, for "consumer camera memory card", which has a different read/write/erase pattern and error tolerance.

    http://spinroot.com/gerard/pdf/25MC.pdf describes an improved file manager under development, but also describes the existing flash architecture.

    1. Re:depends on why bank 7 has problems by Trane+Francks · · Score: 2

      Or, the software is not optimized for "space flight use" but, rather, for "consumer camera memory card", which has a different read/write/erase pattern and error tolerance.

      The flash memory controller was created in-house. Back in 2004, Spirit had well-documented memory issues that were traced to file system logic that didn't properly clear deleted files during a reset. Eventually, storage systems were overrun, which forced NASA to basically reformat the storage system and start afresh after reprogramming the controller firmware.

      --
      ...a FreeDOS contributor: http://www.freedos.org/
  8. Why are we still fighting with this? by emil · · Score: 1, Interesting

    If it was long-known that long-duration, low-intensity heat would revive failed flash, why did these rovers leave without the ability to do so?

    And why am I not able now to buy flash memory that will heat itself to 800 degrees and heal itself?

    And why isn't flash memory sold in ceramic housings that can stand me baking them in an oven for a few days to fix failed flash manually?

    I'd like to buy hardware that works, or that can be repaired. That's not flash.

    1. Re:Why are we still fighting with this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You repair your hard drives?

    2. Re:Why are we still fighting with this? by Charliemopps · · Score: 1

      Maybe because the things powered by solar panels that could barely heat a cup of coffee much less get a flash card to 800 degrees?

    3. Re:Why are we still fighting with this? by Guspaz · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Explain how the results of research done two years ago could have been built into a probe launched ten years ago using technology from twenty years ago?

    4. Re:Why are we still fighting with this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      time travel. you must be new here

    5. Re:Why are we still fighting with this? by DerekLyons · · Score: 2

      If it was long-known that long-duration, low-intensity heat would revive failed flash, why did these rovers leave without the ability to do so?

      The article you link to is dated 2012 - the MER rovers launched in 2003. You do the math.
       

      And why am I not able now to buy flash memory that will heat itself to 800 degrees and heal itself?

      Put an 800 degree flame inside the electronic equipment you use the flash memory in - stand back, way back, and borrow a friend's phone, tablet, or PC to report the results back to us. (If they'll let you.)

      Seriously, 800 degrees, even in a small space, is still a lot of heat to dissipate. It's more than enough to damage the solder connections of the flash chip, and probably enough to damage the socket it's plugged into.

    6. Re:Why are we still fighting with this? by JoshuaZ · · Score: 2, Informative

      These rovers were designed to last 90 days. The most broad plans extended to about a year if they were lucky. So no plans were made for every thing that could go wrong 5 to 10 years down the road.

    7. Re:Why are we still fighting with this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The rovers had a 6 month mission. Anything additional that was definitely not going to be used in that 6 months would have a hard time getting put on the rover.

      > And why am I not able now to buy flash memory that will heat itself to 800 degrees and heal itself?

      Because that article was from 2012 and you need massive economies of scale to make flash memory cheap? Going from proof-of-concept to fabbing it at scale for consumers can easily take more than two years. Macronix presumably owns patents on the tech so it would be up to them to pour money into producing them.

      Hard drives are effectively unrepairable for almost any physical failure mode and nobody ever repairs them unless for data recovery. I don't know why you expect SSDs to be better.

    8. Re:Why are we still fighting with this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why sell self repairing flash when you sell flash with inbuilt obsolescence forcing people to buy a new one every 4-5 years?

      Business is about being as greedy as the law and economy allow...and most of the time they'll knowingly break the law to increase profits if they think they can get away with it.

    9. Re:Why are we still fighting with this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Trolling sure but:

      >If it was long-known that long-duration, low-intensity heat would revive failed flash [slashdot.org], why did these rovers leave without the ability to do so?

      Just continuing to read the line you based your statement on.... but doing so was practically impossible.

      >And why am I not able now to buy flash memory that will heat itself to 800 degrees and heal itself?

      Same summary: It's still a long way from commercialization, but it works on a small scale.

      >I'd like to buy hardware that works, or that can be repaired. That's not flash.
      I have some punch cards I could sell you...they've been around for years and just as readable now as they were then.

    10. Re:Why are we still fighting with this? by gman003 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The expected mission life of the rover was 90 days. It is currently on day 3885.

      They expected to run out of power several years ago. Thus, they did not design other parts of the system to last as long as it has. Given the designed lifetime, it would have been absurd to add the extra weight of a heating system, if such a thing could even be powered at all.

      For a car analogy, that would be like reinforcing your transmission because after 10,000,000 miles it starts to get a bit off-balance.

    11. Re:Why are we still fighting with this? by godber · · Score: 1

      These rovers were designed to last 90 days. The most broad plans extended to about a year if they were lucky. So no plans were made for every thing that could go wrong 5 to 10 years down the road.

      This is the main answer to many of the questions beginning with "Why didn't they..."

      - Austin

    12. Re:Why are we still fighting with this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why didn't you tell NASA, you jerk?

    13. Re:Why are we still fighting with this? by emil · · Score: 0

      This was known, and should have been exploited:

      Although subjecting the cells to high heat could return memory, the process was problematic; the entire memory chip would need heating for hours at around 250 C.

      The rover is equipped with heaters. There is some possibility that simply placing the flash closer could have extended the life of the memory.

    14. Re:Why are we still fighting with this? by Jason+Levine · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Or in human terms, it would be like having a life expectancy of 75 years and developing Alzheimer's at the ripe old age of 3,237.

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    15. Re:Why are we still fighting with this? by oodaloop · · Score: 1

      Because NASA is staffed with morons too stupid to consult with you, obvs.

      --
      Tic-Tac-Toe, Global Thermonuclear War, and relationships all have the same winning move.
    16. Re:Why are we still fighting with this? by eyrieowl · · Score: 2

      There may be some possibility. That would, of course, have *definitely* added to the complexity and time taken to construct the rover. Which was done on the cheap, to meet a limited duration mission goal that it has vastly exceeded...without the extra complexity whose omission you find egregious.

    17. Re:Why are we still fighting with this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We've already sent John Conner back with the NAND Heating Report. Guspaz should re-read the article.

      Who knew that an immortal Opportunity rover would be a key component in Skynet?

    18. Re:Why are we still fighting with this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I applaud you for doing the conversion, but you dropped a .5 on your value of 3237. I think we should round up instead of flooring.

      </only-on-slashdot>

    19. Re:Why are we still fighting with this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is some possibility that simply placing the flash closer could have extended the life of the memory.

      No, there's 0 possibility of that. Heat doesn't slow degradation. This is a binary process. Cells are failed or they're not failed. Over time (usage) more cells will fail. You can reset a failed cell by heating it to very high temperatures, but that also clears anything stored in the flash memory (since you have to heat all cells, not just some).

    20. Re:Why are we still fighting with this? by bledri · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This was known, and should have been exploited:

      Although subjecting the cells to high heat could return memory, the process was problematic; the entire memory chip would need heating for hours at around 250 C.

      The rover is equipped with heaters. There is some possibility that simply placing the flash closer could have extended the life of the memory.

      The rover's primary planned mission was 3 months and the extended mission plan was two years. It lasted 10 years and your upset they didn't design a way to bake the flash (offline) for four hours at 250C? Self heating flash did not exist, should they heat all the electronics? Invent a mechanism to remove the flash and put it in a little oven? Are you shutting down the rover's computer for this? How much complexity would that have added? How long would it take to develop?

      There is such a thing as "good enough," and engineers that don't know that never ship usable product.

      --
      Some privacy policy Slashdot.
    21. Re:Why are we still fighting with this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Umm, News Flash, your home oven will not get to 800 degrees Fahrenheit. Not as it was sold by the manufacturer (sure, now you'll lie to me about how yours was special and can go to 1100 degrees easy...)

      Second news flash: as pointed out below, finding enough heat to get anything to 800 degrees on Mars from a tiny solar powered little automaton is not going to be something that could be done...

    22. Re:Why are we still fighting with this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I see where you are going, you are thinking we should have spent twice as much money on this 3 month experiment, and now that it has been lasting something like 40 times it's intended lifespan we should castigate the engineers and scientists that designed it for not making it last longer.

      You sir, are a fool.

    23. Re:Why are we still fighting with this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Given the designed lifetime, it would have been absurd to add the extra weight of a heating system,

      Especially since they deliberately skipped solar panel wipers to save weight.

      Going into the mission, the key lifetime limitation was thought to be dust accumulation on the solar panels. That was the main reason for the 90-day mission duration. After 90 days the reduced amount of power from dusty solar panels would start to become limiting. The only reason the rovers lasted more than 90-days or so is that the Martian windstorms cleared the dust from the solar panels. Knowing now how long the rovers could last with cleared panels, the obvious question is why didn't they just install some sort of wiper to remove the dust when they didn't think the wind would do the job? The answer is that any sort of extra device would have added to the weight, reducing the scientific payload capacity. They were willing to cut the mission short at 90 days, rather than remove a scientific instrument from the rover in order to stay within the weight limit on the launch capacity.

      If they didn't think adding weight to extend the mission duration past 90 days was worth it, it's simply ludicrous to think that they'd even consider adding weight to extend the duration past 3500+ days.

    24. Re:Why are we still fighting with this? by Tablizer · · Score: 2

      If the gov't has the power to insert birth announcements into Hawaiian newspapers decades old, then it can send new research to old NASA.

    25. Re:Why are we still fighting with this? by radarskiy · · Score: 1

      Clearly, NASA is incompetent at calculating design lifetimes and they should be defunded in favor of private space enterprises.

  9. How bittersweet it would be... by stoofa · · Score: 1

    if the issue turned out be mould.

  10. Flash isn't the problem by Guspaz · · Score: 1

    Or at least the failing flash isn't the reason the problem is serious. Software bugs involving how the failed flash is handled are the problems, causing infinite loops and automatic reboots.

  11. long known? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Let's see, slashdot post from two years ago (about 9 years AFTER the rovers were launched) cited this "It's still a long way from commercialization, but if it works on a small scale"
    from the post that that post cites:
    "The entire memory chip would need heating for hours at around 250 ÃC"

    And the technique proposed in the paper being presented at an IEEE conference in december 2012, where they didn't even have an actual chip designed using your 800C technique, just speculation that might be possible. In fact, the IEEE Spectrum article quotes Macronix's guy:
    "Lue says Macronix intends to capitalize on the self-healing flash breakthrough, but he would not give details about how and when. He was more forthcoming about when the flash industry should have worked in this technology. ÃoeIt took a leap of imagination to jump into a completely different regimeævery high temperature and in a very short time,à says Lue. ÃoeAfterward, we realized that there was no new physics principle invented here, and we could have done this 10 years ago.à é

    Let us count the reasons why we might not want this on a rover being designed and built in 2000-2002
    "intends to capitalize, no details on how and when" (in 2012)
    "could have done this 10 years ago" (so, the *idea* was possible in 2002, about the time the MER rovers were being shipped to the cape for launch"

    Yeah, I think they should have used that in the rovers built in early 2000s..

    You *do* know that spacecraft designers are conservative when it comes to new technology? That MER carries a Rad6000 VME card CPU which is a MIPS 4000 like in the early TiVo boxes..

  12. Voyager by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The memory, as little as it is, the Voyager spacecraft, must be of a different sort. Launched in the late 1970s, the electronics is still functioning, although with a few issues. That'll soon be four times longer that the Rover.

    That, I tell friends, is why I'm happy to drive a 30+ year old car. It has issues, but the hardware it's built from is inherently more long-lived than that in today's cars. A crank-up window just keeps working. One driven by an electric motor doesn't.

    1. Re:Voyager by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The memory, as little as it is, the Voyager spacecraft, must be of a different sort.

      To answer your unasked question: plated wire memory.

    2. Re:Voyager by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are some real oddballs in the Voyager FAQ:

      Question: Just out of curiosity, I would like to ask you from whom you have received the greeting in Turkish?
      The message is on your web site is not in turkish. It is in a half Arabic fundamentalist greeting.
      As a Turk we would say this message sounds Arabic, other than Turkish. For this reason we strongly recommend that you change this language into modern National Turkish.

      Answer: See http://voyager.jpl.nasa.gov/spacecraft/languages/turkish.html

      The message translated to English is "Dear Turkish-speaking friends, may the honors of the morning be upon your heads".

      Who the puck is playing political field hockey with a scientific project? Why is this in the FAQ?

    3. Re:Voyager by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      the hardware it's built from is inherently more long-lived than that in today's cars. A crank-up window just keeps working.

      Until a gear strips. Or a bearing freezes up. Or... there's lots of things to go wrong with a mechanical window that will render it non functional.

    4. Re:Voyager by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 1

      The memory, as little as it is, the Voyager spacecraft, must be of a different sort. Launched in the late 1970s, the electronics is still functioning, although with a few issues. That'll soon be four times longer that the Rover.

      The Voyager craft were intended to operate for many years. The mars rovers weren't. The mars rovers also reside in a much harsher environment than the space probes which float weightlessly in a vacuum at a constant temperature.

      There was no reason to design the flash memory to last much longer than the expected lifetimes of the wheel bearings or solar panels. Just because by some miracle those both lasted much longer than expected, it doesn't mean that additional investments of resources into the memory would have been justified.

      That, I tell friends, is why I'm happy to drive a 30+ year old car. It has issues, but the hardware it's built from is inherently more long-lived than that in today's cars. A crank-up window just keeps working. One driven by an electric motor doesn't.

      False. Cars from that era were routinely sent to the scrapyard when they were less than 10 years old because they were rusted beyond repair. Now the average age of US cars is over ten years, twice what it was in the 1960s. Old cars also required constant maintenance of problem-prone mechanical parts such as ignition points and carburetors.

  13. Back to plated wire memory and tape sytems? by mschaffer · · Score: 4, Interesting

    So, does that mean that NASA needs to go back to the plated wire memory and tape systems like the Honeywell systems that ran the Viking and Voyager systems for decades on Mars and in space?

    1. Re:Back to plated wire memory and tape sytems? by Jason+Levine · · Score: 2

      No. Opportunity was designed for a 90 day mission. It's on 10 years now. So failing flash memory isn't going to be a problem if NASA's next Mars rover has a mission length of one year. If NASA is planning on a 10 year Mars Rover, though, they'll want to take this flash degradation into account. Somehow, I don't see a planned 10 year mission happening. A one year mission that lasts ten years? Possibly. But not a mission that is planned to last for 10 years.

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    2. Re:Back to plated wire memory and tape sytems? by Solandri · · Score: 1

      I suspect on a $/MB basis, the remaining functional flash memory cells are much cheaper than plated wire memory. And tape suffers from moving parts and degradation over time.

      I think the real solution to this will be developing methods to identify failing cells and have the controller write around them. Kinda like HDDs mark bad sectors. Heck, you could probably buy dozens of banks of flash memory for the same cost as plated wire memory, and switch to a new bank as soon as the old one developed too many failures. (System code isn't usually a problem, as that's written to ROM or EEPROM.)

  14. Alternative by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There is another probe in orbit around mars. Can't oportunity transmit it's data in a live stream to that, and the orbital can use it's flash to store and later re-transmit the data?

    1. Re:Alternative by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ITS, not "it's", you illiterate cock-gobbling retard.

  15. trim support by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is a clear case of not running TRIM.

  16. PROPOSAL by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I propose a space probe called "Operator".

    The craft will be a communications relay. It's function will be able to receive and transmit between Earth and other probes that may have previously lost long range communications abilities. This may enable us to reestablish communications with others, and would serve as a backup communications point for other probes to be sent in the future.

  17. the relay spacecraft are in *orbit* by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They pass over the rover twice a day, and yes, they DO use them to send the data from the rover to the spacecraft. Virtually all science data from Mars comes via MEX or MRO relays these days. The direct to earth (DTE) link at X-band is used only for commanding the rovers and getting a small amount of telemetry. It only runs at 8 kbps, while you can get Mbps through the UHF relay links (and the orbiter DTE link)

    The problem is that the software in the rover writes the data to flash, and the "sending of the data" to the relay comes out of flash as it streams to the radio. A flash error causes a system reset, which has the side effect of clearing volatile RAM, even though the power to the RAM isn't lost, so it *could* be preserved.

    This can be changed and is in the process of doing so.. The various references say new software upload in January.. probably waiting for folks to come back from holidays before they beat on the testbed.

  18. Heat duration and intensity by emil · · Score: 1

    The article you link to is dated 2012 - the MER rovers launched in 2003. You do the math.

    No, the article says that you either need low-intensity, long duration heat (which has apparently long been known), or high-intensity, short-duration:

    Although subjecting the cells to high heat could return memory, the process was problematic; the entire memory chip would need heating for hours at around 250 C.

    We are still buying flash that we can't fix because of the packaging. We're still shipping this unfixable flash in mission-critical applications. When does it get fixed?

    1. Re:Heat duration and intensity by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      The article you link to is dated 2012 - the MER rovers launched in 2003. You do the math.

      No, the article says that you either need low-intensity, long duration heat (which has apparently long been known), or high-intensity, short-duration:

      Hello, McFly... did you even bother to read why you're replying to?
       
      And either way, dissipating the heat is going to be a serious problem - 250C is still high enough to potentially cause considerable damage to the surrounding components.

      We are still buying flash that we can't fix because of the packaging. We're still shipping this unfixable flash in mission-critical applications. When does it get fixed?

      Never, because the cure is far more problematical than the disease.

  19. OCZ by kimvette · · Score: 1

    Let me guess: they used OCZ flash memory?

    --
    The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
  20. I'm afraid. I'm afraid, Dave. by jpellino · · Score: 1

    Dave, my mind is going. I can feel it. I can feel it. My mind is going. There is no question about it. I can feel it. I can feel it. I can feel it. I'm a... fraid.

    --
    "Win treats sysadmins better than users. Mac treats users better than sysadmins. Linux treats everyone like sysadmins."
    1. Re:I'm afraid. I'm afraid, Dave. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... later on the rover data received reads:
      Fatal error: To reboot please press the factory reset button located under the radioisotope thermoelectric generator module within 15 seconds!

    2. Re:I'm afraid. I'm afraid, Dave. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Relevant, as the scene in 2001 was inspired by this performance.

      Daisy, Daisy, give me your answer do.
      I'm half crazy, all for the love of you.
      It won't be a stylish marriage. I can't afford a carriage,
      But you'll look sweet upon the seat of a bicycle built for two.

      </two-minutes-lore>

    3. Re:I'm afraid. I'm afraid, Dave. by Kaenneth · · Score: 1

      Hello Fraid, I'm a Human.

  21. Daneel Olivaw by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So, Asimov was actually right with the artificial brain degradation :)

  22. Any Earthlings using 12-year-old flash devices? by peter303 · · Score: 1

    12 years ago no smartPhones, tablets, on flash laptops due to expense of flash. Even Ipods had micro-disks. Just a few cameras and mp3 players with very limited memory. Those devices, or at least there chips, were upgraded long ago.

    1. Re:Any Earthlings using 12-year-old flash devices? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      12 years ago no smartPhones, tablets, on flash laptops due to expense of flash.
      Even Ipods had micro-disks. Just a few cameras and mp3 players with very limited memory. Those devices, or at least there chips, were upgraded long ago.

      Well, I've got a working 128MB USB stick with flash RAM. It's at least 11 years old, and was "state of the art" when I bought it. Also, I have a 64MB CF card which worked last time I used it, and is probably even older.

      Damned if I can find those 8MB and 16MB CF cards which I know I have, and which went in the Casio QV3500EX camera I got in 2001. But to reinforce your point, I eventually got the IBM CF card 340MB disk for that camera. Then the camera was replaced with a DSLR.

    2. Re:Any Earthlings using 12-year-old flash devices? by mister_playboy · · Score: 1

      I still have my PS1 (128KB) and PS2 (8MB) memory cards.

      --
      Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law ::: Love is the law, love under will
    3. Re:Any Earthlings using 12-year-old flash devices? by Solandri · · Score: 1

      Why yes, I still have my 5 MB PCMCIA flash drive for my HP200LX from 20 years ago. In fact it still has a copy of Ultima 3 on it.

  23. Can't Remember Shit by sizzzzlerz · · Score: 0

    Happens to us all, Opportunity.

  24. Strange, my punch cards work fine by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 2

    Now I'll just fire up my Steampunk Mars Exploratron and off we go!

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    1. Re:Strange, my punch cards work fine by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      The 'net has it all:

      http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg....

  25. Hello, At-sign [DOINK!] Go@dbye, Cursor! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    NO ROM BASIC
    SYSTEM HALTED

    Sanity Failure

    **** NASA BASIC ****
    1024000 BYTES FREE

    FATAL: Internal Stack Failure, System Halted

    RXNT@A\DRRNR

  26. Suboptimal planning? by iamacat · · Score: 1

    If good science would be still available after a decade (Opportunity) or many decades (Voyager), at least light components like flash and electronics in general should be designed with good degree of redundancy. Or else if the probe has a limited mission and has accomplished it, there is nothing wrong with abandoning it and focusing money and talent on new missions. Would engineers working on attempts to fix Opportunity be more useful working on newer Curiosity mission? My gut feeling is that making existing missions last longer is much more cost effective than launching new ones. But I am not a space scientist. The point is that mission planning should have clear focus one way or the other.

    1. Re:Suboptimal planning? by Trane+Francks · · Score: 1

      The point is that mission planning should have clear focus one way or the other.

      The mission was designed to last 90 days. Through the wonder of excellent engineering and fortuitous circumstances during the mission, it has lasted a decade. There is no reason to abandon the mission now while they're still managing to get good science out of the vehicle and its instruments. When such time comes that the cost is greater than the justification to extend the mission, it shall be retired as so many other missions have in the past.

      --
      ...a FreeDOS contributor: http://www.freedos.org/
  27. Learning Curve.. by lionchild · · Score: 1

    This is an interesting event. Failure of the flash memory can only really be overcome by either replacing it or having a secondary flash that's on standby, syncing up periodically so that it has much less wear on it, so you can extend the mission by switching over to the backup/secondary flash memory. However, this would add precious ounces to the payload, thereby requiring more fuel, etc.

    --
    Awk! Pieces of eight. Pieces of eight. Pieces of seven... ERROR: General Protection Fault. [Paroty Error.]
  28. Love, TARS, love is the key by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    you just feed data through the watch hand using gravity to transmit morse code to someone whom you have a close emotional bond with. no problem

  29. Hardware can suffer from alzheimer :D by tperalta · · Score: 1

    Hah, FlashZheimer :D

  30. It's too bad she won't live! by Chayat · · Score: 1

    But then again, who does?

  31. Amazing work! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This makes you realize which amazing piece of engineering this hardware is.
    Just try to remember what Smartphone you was using 12 years ago? What game console you had? What the specs of your main computer? Few things we have HERE last that long.