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Vinyl's Revival Is Now a Phenomenon On Both Sides of the Atlantic

New submitter journovampire sends this report about the resurgence of vinyl: Vinyl album sales smashed records on both sides of the Atlantic in 2014, as a format that recently seemed on its last legs hit astonishing new heights. ...n the UK in 2014, vinyl album sales totaled of 1.3m – six times bigger than its tally just five years earlier (2009). In fact, 2014 represented the most vinyl albums sales in the UK since 1995 – nearly 20 years ago. In the U.S., vinyl sales have quadrupled in the past five years, narrowly missing out on a 10m sales milestone in 2014. Amazingly, the year’s 9.2m vinyl sales haul is the biggest since Nielsen Soundscan records began in 1993 – by some distance.

278 comments

  1. Can't DRM or Root Kit Vinyl by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    peace.

    1. Re:Can't DRM or Root Kit Vinyl by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting
    2. Re:Can't DRM or Root Kit Vinyl by jellomizer · · Score: 2

      If you were to copy your Vinyl you will need to use the Analog copy method, which you can do with every other form of digital music.

      I can take music off my phone, plug in the headphone jack to a Tape Recorder or to one of many digitial recorders. Then you can copy your music from one media to an other.

      However being analog every copy will be degraded, so each copy of a copy will have limited sharing resource. Vinyl being all Analog makes it the perfect DRM.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    3. Re:Can't DRM or Root Kit Vinyl by NotDrWho · · Score: 5, Funny

      Yeah, but if you copy vinyl onto any other medium you risk losing that warm, rich sound you get from telling other hipsters how fragrant your farts smell.

      --
      SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
    4. Re:Can't DRM or Root Kit Vinyl by tlambert · · Score: 3, Insightful

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C...

      peace out...

      How does watermarking a vinyl record identify who bought it, when they find the MP3 all over the Internet, again?

      This is like the idiots who wantGPS in everything, not understand that GPS only allows the *thing* to *know where it is*; it does nothing for allow *you* to *know where the thing is*, unless it gets on a communications networks and *tells you*.

      Good luck finding whoever ripped that MP3 from the vinyl record, and then sent it to his cousin in New Jersey, where it ends up in a used record store.

    5. Re:Can't DRM or Root Kit Vinyl by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i lol'd. thanks

    6. Re:Can't DRM or Root Kit Vinyl by jellomizer · · Score: 0

      You will lose it if you copy it from Vinyl to Vinyl.
      Digital media every copy is exact to the previous one. Analog you will not get a perfect match.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    7. Re:Can't DRM or Root Kit Vinyl by jeffmflanagan · · Score: 1

      The same can be said of MP3s, and they don't crackle and hiss like we're back in the 80s. This is clearly a hipster thing, rather than anyone actually seeking better sound, in which case they'd just use Flac files..

    8. Re:Can't DRM or Root Kit Vinyl by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      There are no technical advantages to vinyl, but assuming an album was mastered completely analog, it would be less susceptible to being fucked up by a producer trying to maximize loudness, as well as other effects of overproduction.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    9. Re:Can't DRM or Root Kit Vinyl by brantondaveperson · · Score: 1

      But vinyl looks nicer, and has better (well, bigger) artwork. No-one's buying vinyl because it sounds better (well, some probably are, but I don't think that explains the upswing in sales) - people are buying it because it's just a nice thing to own. Like real books, for instance. No-one has ever really cared about 'sound quality', because unless you sit in the sweet spot in your carefully adjusted room, or use very good headphones, it simply doesn't matter.

    10. Re:Can't DRM or Root Kit Vinyl by The+Grim+Reefer · · Score: 1

      If you were to copy your Vinyl you will need to use the Analog copy method, which you can do with every other form of digital music.

      I can take music off my phone, plug in the headphone jack to a Tape Recorder or to one of many digitial recorders. Then you can copy your music from one media to an other.

      However being analog every copy will be degraded, so each copy of a copy will have limited sharing resource. Vinyl being all Analog makes it the perfect DRM.

      Um, no. You aren't going to copy it from one vinyl record to another vinyl record. Nor are you going to copy it from cassette tape to cassette tape, like the old days. It will go from vinyl to digital . There will be no further degradation from one digital copy to another after that, unless more compression is used.

      If you have new record, a decent turntable and stylus, feeding a good AD converter and something like Cool Edit. You're going to get a pretty good sounding digital file. Certainly no worse than 128 bit MP3's

    11. Re:Can't DRM or Root Kit Vinyl by Sarten-X · · Score: 3, Funny

      Does it matter?

      The distributor has proof (from their own sales records) that record number 12345 was sold to Firsthand Music Stores, Inc., who (as part of their sales agreement) recorded that you, T. Lambert, purchased record number 12345. The fine print on the record sleeve outlines your license agreement (that you agreed to by opening the sleeve), which says that you will not make unauthorized copies or sell the record to anyone who will.

      As far as the courts are concerned, the distributor has proof that you were involved in the illegal copying, and since you agreed to the terms of use, you accepted liability. Either you provide your own records to pass the blame on to someone else, or you take the blame.

      (As far as I know, no cases have actually confirmed this hypothetical chain of events, but I also don't know of any cases ruling it out, either)

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    12. Re:Can't DRM or Root Kit Vinyl by Sarten-X · · Score: 5, Informative

      As an experienced audio engineer, I can assure you that I can fuck up a track just as well with analog as with digital. Using digital technology just makes the process faster.

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    13. Re: Can't DRM or Root Kit Vinyl by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It might have sounded better in the past when the recording master was analog, but does that hold true now that recording masters are digital?

      The highest quality sound from a digital master is going to be from lossless encodings like FLAC. Transferring that digital master to analog vinyl is the same as applying a smoothing filter to the original data.

    14. Re:Can't DRM or Root Kit Vinyl by Pentium100 · · Score: 2

      Also, watermarking each individual record would mean cutting the master each for each record would be extremely expensive. The main factor that reduces cost for disc records (and why they won over cylinders) is that it is easy to mass produce them (and in those days it was not possible to stamp cylinders). If you make a master for each record then it would be much more expensive to produce than tape (including the cost of reel to reel tape still in production).

    15. Re: Can't DRM or Root Kit Vinyl by Pentium100 · · Score: 1

      Sometimes the vinyl releases are not as loud as CD releases, and loudness war is the main reason why CDs sound bad.

    16. Re: Can't DRM or Root Kit Vinyl by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

      True, but if you read the grandparent's link to Wikipedia it describes bluray players that can recognize the audio watermark and won't play the disc. According to the article all players released after 2012 are required to implement the tech. It's not much of a stretch to expect phones and mp3 players will get the same tech soon. It's like I keep telling my buddies: like it or not tech is gonna make crime obsolete, least the nonviolent variety...

      --
      Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    17. Re:Can't DRM or Root Kit Vinyl by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cinavia is a criminal scam (every cent spent on it, was at the expense of a defrauded investor or defrauded customer) because it presupposes that pirates will opt to run user-hostile equipment or software.

      That consist of (approximately) 0% of the market.

      As a pirate, I really, really hope that scams like Cinavia are the future, and that it gets even more popular.

      Watermarking is a classic seize-defeat-from-jaws-of-victory scenario for IP rightsholders. When I first heard about it, I respected it because I assumed it was going to be used intelligently, to identify sources of data. At its core, watermarking is a basically good idea.

      Then somehow, amazingly and to all pirates' delight, it turned into merely a way for user-hostile players to chose to not work, where all friendly players would not only not-bother to implement the breakage (why would I want to make a player which sometimes deliberately fails to play?), but probably wouldn't even be able to know when they "should" break, both due to trade secrets and probably the law (DMCA) too.

      Watermarking went from good idea to Just Plain Stupid. (And then obvious_stupidity + knowingly_selling_that_stupid_for_prof = fraud.) Criminal fraud issues aside, from users' point of view, it is irrelevant other than increasing the price of things, as well as probably occasionally triggering false positives.

      Anyway, Vinyl isn't DRMed, because you wouldn't ever think to try to play it on a known-broken record player. Why would you?

    18. Re:Can't DRM or Root Kit Vinyl by hackwrench · · Score: 1

      Hipsters weren't born before the first vinyl records were popular so there's no way they can say they were into it before it was hip, You must be thinking of some other stereotypical demographic.

    19. Re:Can't DRM or Root Kit Vinyl by sound+vision · · Score: 1

      Nearly all vinyl is pressed from the exact same master as the CD, with all its dynamic range compression. In my collection of 30 or so records, ranging from 1960s pressings through to new releases this year, none of them are better produced than their CD version. In fact, one of the vinyl records I have was actually pressed using MP3s as the source material. (The CD version of that album was also MP3-sourced.)

    20. Re:Can't DRM or Root Kit Vinyl by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The signal can be intercepted directly at the transducer (i.e. stylus) and immediately digitized. The resulting digital copy could then be copied at will any number of times. The only degradation in quality would depend on the transducer but in the best cases (which is not hard to achieve) would be insignificant.

      It is flatly IMPOSSIBLE to prevent copying.

    21. Re: Can't DRM or Root Kit Vinyl by sound+vision · · Score: 1

      Analog recordings have never been better than digital recordings at CD-spec or higher. So, it doesn't matter if the source material for vinyl is an analog tape or a digital recording. In fact, the cutting lathes used to etch the grooves into the vinyl pressing plate have had an internal digital stage since the late 1970s. So even most of those old records have gone through a digital stage.

      I'm also not sure where you get the idea it's like a smoothing filter - you will typically get less high-frequency response on vinyl vs. uncompressed digital, which is also a side-effect of smoothing filters, but somehow I don't think that's what you meant.

    22. Re:Can't DRM or Root Kit Vinyl by rogoshen1 · · Score: 1

      only if you run it through a DAC, rather than an amplifier that uses vacuum tubes. do you even audiophile? next thing you'll tell me is that you don't use directional Ethernet to ensure proper delivery and flow of electrons :(

    23. Re:Can't DRM or Root Kit Vinyl by michaelpearls · · Score: 2

      Stop with the hipster references. People other than hipsters buy vinyl. I am far from a hipster. I am a 42 year old developer without a beard. I like listening to vinyl and buying it. Though, the stuff I buy was probably pressed before 1990. Oh, and my farts do smell bad.

    24. Re:Can't DRM or Root Kit Vinyl by fizzer06 · · Score: 1
      I remember, when I was a child, my Mom had a collection of 78 rpm recordings. Those were made of a hard material, shellac lacquer I think. You could break them, but they didn't hardly warp.

      Then came the soft vinyl 33 rpm albums, followed by even softer vinyl ones. DRM was inherent in that they didn't last unless you were obsessive in the care and handling.

      I hate record companies.

    25. Re:Can't DRM or Root Kit Vinyl by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      http://www.kanyetothe.com/foru... Appears to be an example to the contrary, with a pretty noticeable difference of a fairly recent release, and I know a number of digital remasters have a lot of that going on, with The Stooges' Raw Power being one of the most egregious examples.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    26. Re:Can't DRM or Root Kit Vinyl by taustin · · Score: 1

      The fine print on the record sleeve outlines your license agreement (that you agreed to by opening the sleeve), which says that you will not make unauthorized copies or sell the record to anyone who will.

      You are apparently unfamiliar with the first sale doctrine. Such "license agreements" date back at least a century (when book publishers tried similar things to keep people from selling used books), and have been shot down by the courts pretty much every single time.

    27. Re:Can't DRM or Root Kit Vinyl by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The issue appears to be that you will not be allowed to media shift it from the vinyl as the player will recognise the watermark and refuse to play the music. It doesn't matter if it was downloaded or ripped for your own personal consumption, you won't be allowed do it with this in place.

    28. Re:Can't DRM or Root Kit Vinyl by dotwhynot · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but if you copy vinyl onto any other medium you risk losing that warm, rich sound you get from telling other hipsters how fragrant your farts smell.

      Although you were going for funny, the evidence (double blind tests + science) is that the warm rich analogue sound from LP carries perfectly over to digital recordings when ripped from LP source. Because it is an artifact of LP medium technical limitations and playback distortions, perfectly captured by digital reproductions.

    29. Re:Can't DRM or Root Kit Vinyl by sound+vision · · Score: 1

      You might be able to find a couple examples to the contrary, out of the ocean of badly-produced releases, but the images posted to that message board are proof of nothing. It takes a track containing 2.6 million individual samples, and squeezes it into a graph that's only 500px wide. The appearance of higher peaks in the vinyl rip is an artifact of that rip going from digital (studio) to analog (vinyl) then back to digital (ripped to computer). Not an indication of actual dynamic range increase.

      I assure you, if you were presented with a proper comparison of zoomed-in waveform of a very dynamic sound, say a bass drum hit, it would look like this:
      http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_VD9d...
      (Not the best example, but I'm short on time and can't dig through my own rips.)
      The top waveform is the CD and the bottom is the vinyl. You can see it's compressed and clipped just as badly as the CD - indeed they just fed the CD audio into the vinyl cutting machine. The physical limitations of the vinyl format (needle needs to adhere to the groove wall, etc) have just caused it to become a bit distorted. You can get the same effect by applying a bandpass filter to the CD version, that will also give you varied peaks without any actual dynamic range increase.

      Besides, if someone was going to take the time to create a separate dynamic mix of their album... it definitely wouldn't be Kanye West.

    30. Re:Can't DRM or Root Kit Vinyl by sound+vision · · Score: 1

      I don't like to repost, but I read a bit further down that Kanye thread, and by reply #4 there is already someone confusing dynamic range compression and audio data compression (like MP3). It's clear these people have no idea of what they're talking about. The subject of audio in particular seems to draw lots of people who speak from their anus with an air of authority. Internet sites regarding audio are more likely to be BS than accurate information - Hydrogenaudio being a notable exception.

      Myself, I have studied signal theory and a bit about DSPs in addition to researching modern recording/mastering processes that get used in the industry. Not to mention doing a bit of production work myself. Vinyl rips, cassette rips, open reel tape rips, original recordings...

    31. Re:Can't DRM or Root Kit Vinyl by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      several methods of breaking that have already been discovered by people using open source tools and playing around with settings and ripping methods. google is your friend.

      peace out and rip on!

    32. Re:Can't DRM or Root Kit Vinyl by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      Several methods of breaking that silly system have already been discovered by people using open source tools and playing around with settings and ripping methods. Google is your friend.

      Peace out and rip on!

    33. Re:Can't DRM or Root Kit Vinyl by Pentium100 · · Score: 1

      Really? I don't think any of my tape or cassette decks (or even MD recorders) have this function. Even if they had, it would not be difficult (in case of cassette and reel tape decks) to bypass it).

    34. Re:Can't DRM or Root Kit Vinyl by squiggleslash · · Score: 1

      I can also understand the attraction of vinyl, there's no more pleasant experience than putting a record on a turn table, lifting the arm, gently lowering it onto the outer groove aTHUMPlifting the arm, gently lowering it onto the outer groove aTHUMPlifting the arm, gently lowering it onto the outer groove aTHUMPlifting the arm, gently lowering it onto the outer groove aTHUMPlifting the arm, gently lowering it onto the outer groove aTHUMPlifting the arm, gently lowering it onto the outer groove aTHUMPlifting the arm, gently lowering it onto the outer groove aTHUMPlifting the arm, gently lowering it onto the outer groove aTHUMPlifting the arm, gently lowering it onto the outer groove aTHUMP...

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    35. Re:Can't DRM or Root Kit Vinyl by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      That's never been a criterion. For example, few if any people are alive now who remember when daguerreotypes were state of he art - and yet there are 27 million different apps for making shit photos taken on phones look even more shit.

      Indeed, the concept of anything that happened more than a decade ago would be totally lost on most of them.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    36. Re:Can't DRM or Root Kit Vinyl by elgatozorbas · · Score: 1
      No doubt about that. :-)

      Nevertheless, I would expect that the chances of fucking up vinyl are lower, just because the intended audience is different than for CDs. Is that a valid assumption?

    37. Re:Can't DRM or Root Kit Vinyl by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      See Rush - Vapor Trails (first release) for a good comparison. One of the Metallica albums (not a vinyl comparison) was mastered crappily, and people found better versions out of rock band or something....

    38. Re:Can't DRM or Root Kit Vinyl by del_diablo · · Score: 1

      "make unauthorized copies" Is pretty undefined.

    39. Re:Can't DRM or Root Kit Vinyl by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      And living in a country with consumer protection rights that deserve the name i can tell you that you can take your fine print and be happy it's so small considering where you can stick it.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    40. Re:Can't DRM or Root Kit Vinyl by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Exactly, and that's what you want, hipster! It will be an individual copy. Not like all the hundreds of thousands of clones out there, your copy will be completely individual, just like yourself!

      Yes, it will snap, crackle and pop and generally suck. But it's an individual! Just like the hipster that made it.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    41. Re:Can't DRM or Root Kit Vinyl by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Well, how could you do something before it was cool if you knew that your dad already did it long before you existed?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    42. Re:Can't DRM or Root Kit Vinyl by Sarten-X · · Score: 1

      Only incidentally. If, as king neckbeard suggested, the vinyl master were done completely analog for some reason (hipster executive producer?), it would be possible that they'd want to do it differently, effectively making the two media two separate artistic works.

      One detail that's often missing from discussions about loudness and compression is that it's all intentional. The term "Loudness War" isn't just for emotional response. Producers kept pushing compression higher a little bit at a time, over the course of decades. The idea of what a song should sound like has changed, just as how other forms of art have gone through several different styles as painters, sculptors, and architects have accommodated changing aesthetics in their media.

      This notion that "compression is bad" is a relatively new thing, previously just the complaint of self-proclaimed audiophiles and pretentious critics. The vast majority of listeners won't care, so unless the producer has an artistic inclination to change their style, it's not likely to happen.

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    43. Re:Can't DRM or Root Kit Vinyl by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C...

      peace out...

      How does watermarking a vinyl record identify who bought it, when they find the MP3 all over the Internet, again?

      This is like the idiots who wantGPS in everything, not understand that GPS only allows the *thing* to *know where it is*; it does nothing for allow *you* to *know where the thing is*, unless it gets on a communications networks and *tells you*.

      Good luck finding whoever ripped that MP3 from the vinyl record, and then sent it to his cousin in New Jersey, where it ends up in a used record store.

      The advantage of vinyl is that the recording technique is analog, - audio signals only, and that the technique of Dolby can be applied. Vinyl records are recorded following the RIAA curve for audio (cutting the amplitude of the bass notes and boosting the treble). Dolby is another analogue information that helps to reestablish dynamic range.
         

    44. Re:Can't DRM or Root Kit Vinyl by AntiSol · · Score: 1

      If you showed ID to buy a record then I have no sympathy for anything that happens to you thereafter.

  2. Psssh by C0R1D4N · · Score: 2

    If you really wanna go retro, use wax tubes.

    1. Re:Psssh by OzPeter · · Score: 4, Funny

      If you really wanna go retro, use wax tubes.

      what, do you mean you don't employ your own orchestra that plays the music you want on demand?

      --
      I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
    2. Re:Psssh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      They could use wire recorders: because You've Probably Never Heard Of Them.

    3. Re:Psssh by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A lot of middle-class homes used to have a piano for that purpose, no lie. Once upon a time, music sales didn't mean recordings--it meant sheet music, so people could play the songs at home.

    4. Re:Psssh by NotDrWho · · Score: 1

      And did I mention that I don't even *OWN* an TV?

      --
      SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
    5. Re:Psssh by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      And a lot of middle class people have scary memories of said piano as they recall either taking lessons on the thing or being forced to listen to someone who took (a few) lessons.

      There is a reason we call it progress.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    6. Re:Psssh by TWX · · Score: 1

      Sure I have! I saw The Outer Limits episode, "Demon with a Glass Hand," too...

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    7. Re:Psssh by jeffmflanagan · · Score: 2

      My nephews and niece were forced to play the family piano, and are now all amazing on it. Being forced to learn a skill is not a bad thing unless you lack the ability to succeed.

    8. Re:Psssh by jones_supa · · Score: 1

      A lot of middle-class homes used to have a piano for that purpose, no lie. Once upon a time, music sales didn't mean recordings--it meant sheet music, so people could play the songs at home.

      These days, even if people had the piano, they'd lack the attention span to learn to play it...

    9. Re:Psssh by westlake · · Score: 1

      A lot of middle-class homes used to have a piano for that purpose, no lie.

      In our family that would be four generations and counting.

      My sister, who teaches and plays professionally, owns both a modern mid-sized Steinway concert grand and a restored antique parlor reed pump organ. The Steinway is everything you would expect it to be.

      The organ --- typical of the mass-market product sold out of the Sears, Roebuck catalog ca. 1897 --- genuinely surprised me. I had no idea how capable and pleasing an instrument it could be.

    10. Re:Psssh by sudon't · · Score: 1

      If you really wanna go retro, use wax tubes.

      You know, I don't care if "the kids" got into it because they thought it was all retro 'n' shit. I just hope that, after they get over that, they realize how much better records are - for everyone concerned - and stick with it. But, even in the darkest days, the independent and the boutique labels put it out, and I was able to find most of the records I wanted. I decided to go back to vinyl only around '95 when about 30% of my music was on CD. You just can't beat 2" tape and vinyl.

      --
      -- sudon't

      Air-ride Equipped

    11. Re:Psssh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mine does - we all play a variety of instruments, and get together and drink/eat/and play music on holidays.

      Doesn't everyone?

    12. Re:Psssh by alexhs · · Score: 1

      And did I mention that I don't even *OWN* an TV?

      Yes, yes you did !

      --
      I have discovered a truly marvelous proof of killer sig, which this margin is too narrow to contain.
    13. Re:Psssh by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      Used to? No asians in your house? "Good, your homework is done. Now you play the piano!"

    14. Re:Psssh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Being forced to learn a skill is not a bad thing unless you lack the ability to succeed.

      Spoken like somebody who's never read a book on economics. It's called opportunity cost, look it up sometime.

    15. Re:Psssh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You just can't beat 2" tape and vinyl.

      48 kHz sampling rate and 16-bit sample depth is enough to beat 2" tape and vinyl.

  3. Novelty Media is Novelty by bigdady92 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Go figure. Hipster trends hit mainstream, give it 2-3 years and vinyl will fall by the wayside as people pickup Zune's and say "THIS IS HOW IT WAS MEANT TO BE!"

    --
    Wheel of Time: Book by Book and Sumview (summary review) Bigdady92 style: http://bigdady92.blogspot.com/
    1. Re:Novelty Media is Novelty by NewWorldDan · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think we're also at a point in society where many things have become just a bit too easy. I can carry around one thousand albums and play them back on a device the size of a pack of gum. Vinyl forces you to store and manage a bulky item. You can't take it on the go, you put on one album and you listen to it (or even only half of it). It's a listening ritual.

      Similarly, people who don't find themselves doing enough real work do things like running marathons. Food preparation these days, especially for dinner parties, is often about showcasing how much time you have to devote to the process. In a world where you can have anything you want delivered the next day from Amazon, people are starting to want things that require a bit more effort.

    2. Re:Novelty Media is Novelty by MacTO · · Score: 1

      I did go vinyl for a short time, when both record players and records were dirt cheap. That is the big benefit of being trailing edge. But when the hipsters entered the scene and drove prices up, there were no benefits.

    3. Re: Novelty Media is Novelty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The problem with your theory is that new LP's come with digital downloads.

    4. Re:Novelty Media is Novelty by rasmusbr · · Score: 1

      Uh, yeah. Vinyl was hot among hipsters about a decade ago.

      The thing is, if you like the album art then the vinyl version is objectively better than the CD version, since the art is bigger on vinyl. A lot of these records are bought primarily as home decor items.

    5. Re:Novelty Media is Novelty by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

      Similarly, people who don't find themselves doing enough real work do things like running marathons.

      As a marathoner, I resent your implication that I don't do enough real work. Training for and running a marathon is my hobby. I train with doctors, lawyers, housewives, entrepreneurs, students, wait-staff, etc. It takes a lot of time and is like getting a second job but it's not because we spend all day doing nothing. Some people choose to watch TV in their spare time; some people choose to play video games. You may not choose a marathon over your current hobbies but that is your choice; don't denigrate those who simply choose differently.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    6. Re: Novelty Media is Novelty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't be sensitive, work has multiple meanings. One if them is related to physics and implying physical work. Also, the GP's point of reference is the evolutionary setting, and our cave dwelling ancestors wouldn't have called sitting around a tableall day 'work'.

    7. Re:Novelty Media is Novelty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Go fuck yourself you fat lazy cunt. I work plenty and I do 70.3 Ironmans for a hobby.

    8. Re:Novelty Media is Novelty by JMZero · · Score: 1

      If you could see yourself from the outside, you'd realize how perfectly - amazingly, beautifully - you validated his comment.

      --
      Let's not stir that bag of worms...
    9. Re:Novelty Media is Novelty by jeffmflanagan · · Score: 1

      >You can't take it on the go Sure you can. http://www.consumerreports.org... http://www.ebay.com/itm/PORTAB...

    10. Re:Novelty Media is Novelty by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

      How so? I work sometimes 60 hours a week. In my spare time I used to play video games, rock climb, watch anime, etc. But now I choose to run because I like to run. It keeps me healthy. It is my zen moments during runs. And for everyone that trains with me they have their own reasons; none of them do it because they feel like they don't do real work.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    11. Re: Novelty Media is Novelty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Definitely a ritual.

      Is like coffee. You can do it with a plastic cup in a machine, or grind your own beans and use any number of methods to produce the drink.

      Some want the speed, others want the quality.

      Digital music is fine, I just wish they wouldn't push the clipping limits across the whole waveform.

    12. Re:Novelty Media is Novelty by NewWorldDan · · Score: 1

      How much manual labor do you do? When I worked in fast food and manufacturing, I spent more of my spare time reading, gaming, and writing software. I still do those things in my spare time, but now, as a desk jockey, I do a lot more woodworking, cooking, and biking. I trained for a week long bike ride across Iowa. Best shape I've been in in years because of it. As I spoke with my fellow riders among the corn fields, I found a lot of professional workers. I didn't find any carpenters or plumbers or electricians.

      I assume that one of the reasons you find running to be rewarding is because of the amount of work it takes to successfully prepare for a marathon. Running a marathon in anything under 5 hours is a major achievement. We do these things not because they are easy, but because they are hard. Some guy that builds houses for a living? He doesn't need any more hard work.

    13. Re:Novelty Media is Novelty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So does that make you some sort of pre-hipster?

    14. Re:Novelty Media is Novelty by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

      How much manual labor do you do?

      Why does that matter? I don't run marathons for the labor involved.

      When I worked in fast food and manufacturing, I spent more of my spare time reading, gaming, and writing software. I still do those things in my spare time, but now, as a desk jockey, I do a lot more woodworking, cooking, and biking. I trained for a week long bike ride across Iowa. Best shape I've been in in years because of it. As I spoke with my fellow riders among the corn fields, I found a lot of professional workers. I didn't find any carpenters or plumbers or electricians.

      Among the people I run with are contractors, police officers, EMTs, etc. They run the whole gamut of professions from those who do a lot of manual work to those who do very little.

      I assume that one of the reasons you find running to be rewarding is because of the amount of work it takes to successfully prepare for a marathon. Running a marathon in anything under 5 hours is a major achievement. We do these things not because they are easy, but because they are hard. Some guy that builds houses for a living? He doesn't need any more hard work.

      Well I know of two guys who did run marathons who built houses for a living. One of them has since sold his business but that's what he did. It may be true that those of perform manual labor are not as likely to run but they are there.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    15. Re:Novelty Media is Novelty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      New real estate axiom: "Follow the Slow-reacting Cheapskates"

    16. Re:Novelty Media is Novelty by Jawnn · · Score: 1

      Been there and done that, twice. Commercially available digital music sucks. MP3 will never be "how it was meant to be". Not that the tin-eared tools who think Beats headphones are cool can hear the difference, but just sayin'... some of us can hear the difference.

    17. Re:Novelty Media is Novelty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You're still helping to validate NewWorldDan's comment. :)

      I don't need to tell you what you said, but this is what the rest of us heard: "behold, I am such a fine specimen that in addition to holding down a full-time job, I also participate in elite athletic endeavours, and I have many such elite friends".

      There's nothing wrong with running for fun and/or fitness, but running a full marathon (instead of - say - 45% or 93% or 127% of marathon distance) is something people do specifically so they can drop lines like "as a marathoner..." into conversation. Not that there's anything wrong with that, either; we all seek badges like that to show how fine a specimen we are, and for some, it's collecting obsolete machinery that only special people can fully appreciate. It's just kind of pointless to hold up a badge and say "hey, it's not just a badge".

    18. Re:Novelty Media is Novelty by hitmark · · Score: 1

      Echo that. I keep noticing "lifestyle ads" that indicate that to be "a proper person" you should spend half your day at some food market talking to the sellers about the aspects of the perfect head of lettuce etc, then the rest of it cooking up a late evening meal for your friends. Its like work don't exist.

      But then it also seems like various upper class people have kids these days to show off how much free time they have to spend with them...

      Also, "work" seems to involve hammering numbers into random spreadsheets and chatting up clients via phone calls. something that can be done anywhere with a power outlet and a cell signal.

      I guess it could be considered the modern equivalent of the Victorian gentleman ideal of "retire with competence". Meaning the ownership of properties, stocks, or interest on savings, that has enough profits to cover lifestyle expenses.

      --
      comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
    19. Re:Novelty Media is Novelty by hawk · · Score: 1

      It's a sensitive clod, you marathoner.

      No, wait, that's not right.

      In soviet marathon, natalie porter grits you!.

      No, that's not it.

      hmm.

      hawk

  4. Hipster bashing by Rinikusu · · Score: 2

    Typical.

    But then again, there's a lot of us old farts who still have a nice Vinyl collection collecting dust. Say what we will about the immediacy and portability of digital media, I get really irritated having to redownload/sync my media (especially CD and odds and ends picked up from bands on the internet) on my laptop. Yes, I can't take my vinyl with me on the go (and for that, I have my phone). but for lounging around the house on saturday afternoon, sometimes picking up an old record (or new one) has a bit of nostalgia that I can sit back and enjoy while sipping a coffee.

    There's a coming anti-digital storm: Vinyl, Instant Film, cassette tapes, now we just need to see super 8 and 16 for film. Too many hacks, too many insecure sites, and people finally coming to the realization that maybe, just maybe, they shouldn't put everything they do online for anyone and everyone to see or "steal". I'm okay with this.

    --
    If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
    1. Re:Hipster bashing by CWCheese · · Score: 2

      8-track needs a comeback, too long since I heard that resounding *clack* interrupting the best song on any album

      --
      Have a Day!
    2. Re:Hipster bashing by morgauxo · · Score: 1

      Sure..

      Let's move backwards! ...because you can't use any kind of digital medium without posting the result on the internet. There is no way you could take a video on a digital recorder and store it on some local medium such as a hard disc, flash drive or even a DVD and not simultaneously share it with all your buddies on Facebook and Youtube. Similarly there is no way you can keep your collection of scandalous digital photos anywhere except in your email box protected with a password of "password".

    3. Re:Hipster bashing by TWX · · Score: 1

      I have a fairly large Laserdisc collection, over 500 titles. I have probably twice that many titles on DVD and Blu-Ray, but there is something special about carefully removing the sleeve from the cardboard, removing the disc from the sleeve, and loading it into the player. Sure, it's not on-demand where I can pick up one remote to do everything needed to watch the content, but turning on the projector to let it warm up, starting the motor to roll-down the screen, and turning on all of the rest of the equipment just makes me happy, and I find that I actually put down the laptop and the phone when I've gone through my little ritual to watch something on disc in general down on that entertainment center, as opposed to the on-demand features available to me on the normal TV-watching setup upstairs. Watching DVD, Blu-Ray, and even VHS tape gives a similar feeling compared to on-demand content.

      My wife has similar feelings; her movie collection and mine merged on getting married, and she was happy to start using the separate components and surround sound that our setup has. While we don't expect everyone to agree or to get the same feeling from it, but I suspect that those that listen to vinyl get something out of a similar ritual too, where the act of making the choice to listen and the motions entailed in doing that help with the experience.

      I need to get a new cartridge for my record player; I've got maybe fifty records that I could play if I did, mostly new-wave stuff from the eighties, with a smattering of my folks' records from the sixties and seventies...

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    4. Re:Hipster bashing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hi Rinikusu - I agree with you in saying this is a typical response and with the anti-digital storm.

      One issue with many of these responses is there is an assumption that the music is actually available in a digital form. There are TONS and I mean TONS of insanely killer unknown songs available only as a 45 or a mega rare LP but it assumes that the buyer is aware of something that much less known and is very high quality vs. mass market only music that happened to sell well.

      Having knowledge of the history of popular (or not so popular) music isn't something that one can quantify in bit rate or anti-DRM. Call that "hipster" if you want but as someone who has been buying collectible/hard to find records for multiple decades in all nooks and crannies including via snail-mail based actions in the 80's/90's, it's a lot about discovering gems and not commonly known pieces of music/culture for me.

      That is an unquantifiable element and while "listening to the song" is one element, there are other emotional elements with record collecting that may not be appreciated by someone who sits at an ikea desk with their macbook and an unoriginal/culture-less crate and barrel house (I'm throwing a stone back here).

      Other elements included with finding treasures in plain-sight are the pure excitement of new information, the unique friendships with the handful of people who know about this music, and the rebellious superiority of having one up on the pathetically bland cultural void we live in today.

      It's also cool, again an unquantifiable element that can't be put in an algorithm to be synthesized from nothing like a human can create with their voice, a guitar, or slapping their hands on their knees.

      Finding a record at a thrift store or, even better, in a record store under the nose of those who supposedly know for $1 when someone is willing to pay $1000 for half way around the world online is exhilarating. Playing that record with friends while drinking a beer and talking about the label, who played on it, the influences of the music, who wrote it, and what the artist did after or before that is having a good time. This again is not quantifiable to those who measure things as part of their culture. Call it being a hipster but I call it knowing more about something awesome and finding killer art with my own brain, then enjoying it a million ways over and over.

      I hope this gives some insight to /. crowd who seems to have an issue with understanding all of this.

    5. Re:Hipster bashing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "now we just need to see super 8 and 16 for film."

      You mean, this stuff:

      http://www.freestylephoto.biz/category/206-Film/Movie-Film

  5. Not surprising... by mlts · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Of course, there is the retro side to vinyl. However, there is the physical aspect of the media, from plenty of space on the cover for album art (as opposed to what is shown on a smartphone display) to having liner notes and other niceties with the album, to the actual handling of a record which is 100% analog. Of course, its audio quality compared to a CD is debatable, but there is definitely something about having a record collection and the physical aspect of that.

    For example, one physical aspect was Jethro Tull's "Thick as a Brick" newspaper. Another album actually folded into a miniature desk. This is a physical trait that has been lost, and is now being rediscovered.

    Of course, there is the fact that DRM and the play device phoning home isn't an issue, and it doesn't take that much in the way of electronics to play a record compared to a CD or MP3 file.

    1. Re:Not surprising... by brunes69 · · Score: 1

      The whole DRM thing is pretty much a non issue. No major music outlet (Google, Amazon, iTunes) has had DRM on their tracks for years. Even streaming providers don't use DRM anymore. That whole ship sailed a long time ago.

    2. Re:Not surprising... by houghi · · Score: 1

      I rember buying the tripple album of Emerson Lake and Palmer. 3 (three) albums. That was unheard of.
      I remember buying "This is my beloved" from Arthur Prysock where side one and side two had a meaning.
      I remember buying records for the cover, because if they have enough money to get a decent cover, they can't be rubbish.

      Would I want to go back? No. The 4 extra pages mean nothing compared to the tons they can make available, if they wish to. The quality can be emulated. And this for both vynil and CD, where I can now download true quality.

      That said, people will always be riding horses. People are still leaning how to shoot bow and arrows. Now there apparently is a 'peak' in the hobby of vynil records. Perhaps people who are able to afford it are at an age where it reminds them of their childhood.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    3. Re:Not surprising... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We are slowly building a vinyl collection for a couple reasons.

      #1 - playing an album (rather than a shuffled mix of 3K+ songs) is rather nice. It has a basic, real, feel to it

      #2 - having to actively flip and change the albums adds a forced "what should we listen to next?" aspect of it.

      #3 - most albums now come with free digital download vouchers, making it the best of both worlds

    4. Re: Not surprising... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No they switched to embedded meta-data tag that tells them who the original purchaser of the music was if ever it is found circulating in the wild.

      Yes, they are easily removed by the average Slashdot reader, but then they're not after folks like us.

    5. Re:Not surprising... by westlake · · Score: 1

      Of course, there is the fact that DRM and the play device phoning home isn't an issue, and it doesn't take that much in the way of electronics to play a record compared to a CD or MP3 file.

      I very much doubt that the vinyl enthusiast shares the geek's obsession with DRM.

      You'll understand them better when you look at the reasons why a collector will pay a premium for a traditionally bound and illustrated book.

      The audiophile turntable as much about sculpture as it is about music. The machine is exposed and celebrated, not hidden.

      The geek can be so focused on the tech that he misses everything else that is important. From the earliest days listening to the phonograph was advertised as a social experience. It was never about the ear bud, it was about dancing.

    6. Re:Not surprising... by plcurechax · · Score: 3, Informative

      Of course, its audio quality compared to a CD is debatable [...]

      No, it isn't debatable. Due to physical limitations of cutting a groove in the record surface, and interpreting using a needle during playback, vinyl recordings ("LP" or other form factors such as 7 inch 45's) are physically constrained, preventing the recording of some low-frequency sounds and effects. Such sounds and effects are/were featured in electronic music ("techno", "dance", etc.). This was the reason behind the RIAA equalization curve used to de-emphasize the bass frequencies, it allowed closer spacing of the groove (which lengthen play time, the major justification / selling point of the LP format). There are also pre- and post- echos of loud passages if preceded / followed by a very quiet section. Vinyl is an analog recording using techniques developed in the 1950s, and suffers from numerous limitations of the physical limitations of the medium, with no inherit noise reduction or error correction possible, so the vinyl format has absolutely no objective superiority in accurate sound reproduction.

      There is one complicating factor, which is not inherit in the vinyl format itself. Modern ("revival") LPs do excel in that they often use a better quality final mix with a wider dynamic range, whereas final mixes for CDs and digital formats typically are highly or over- compressed (due to the auditory perception of "louder" will intuited as "better", the basis of the "Loudness Wars") before being transferred for commercial duplication.

      Some well mastered (retain a full dynamic range between quiet and loud passages) CDs and digital recordings do exist, but sadly too many studios still over-compress the recordings.

      There was the comical case of Guitar Hero, where digital recordings shipped with the game were of better (dynamic range) quality than were available as CDs or discrete available for purchase digital format (MP3, AAC, etc.).

    7. Re:Not surprising... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course, there is the retro side to vinyl. However, there is the physical aspect of the media, from plenty of space on the cover for album art (as opposed to what is shown on a smartphone display) to having liner notes and other niceties with the album, to the actual handling of a record which is 100% analog. Of course, its audio quality compared to a CD is debatable, but there is definitely something about having a record collection and the physical aspect of that.

      For example, one physical aspect was Jethro Tull's "Thick as a Brick" newspaper. Another album actually folded into a miniature desk. This is a physical trait that has been lost, and is now being rediscovered.

      Of course, there is the fact that DRM and the play device phoning home isn't an issue, and it doesn't take that much in the way of electronics to play a record compared to a CD or MP3 file.

      Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon. Full of posters and stickers.

      I think Animals came with an inflatable plastic pig in it, but I got the cassette edition.

    8. Re: Not surprising... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No they switched to embedded meta-data tag that tells them who the original purchaser of the music was if ever it is found circulating in the wild. Yes, they are easily removed by the average Slashdot reader, but then they're not after folks like us.

      I don't think you get the problem with DRM. Metadata doesn't need to be removed, because it doesn't interfere with playback. Metadata doesn't keep you from using whatever-the-fuck player that you want to. Metadata doesn't make you throw up your hands in despair, give up and then go pirate something instead, vowing to never purchase that type of media again because you don't have enough patience for the reliability and quality problems.

      Metadata does't cause piracy, whereas DRM does. The two things are totally incomparable and completely unrelated.

    9. Re:Not surprising... by Sloppy · · Score: 1

      I very much doubt that the vinyl enthusiast shares the geek's obsession with DRM.

      That's because they don't have DRM! Their classic turntable is actually able to play the records they buy!

      If they had DRM (i.e. you buy a vinyl record and then there are technical barriers and legal risks to overcome before you're able to get it working) then you expect the situation to create "obsession." The social experience would be a some kind of hackathon, with occasional screetches where all the girls and boys would grimace and hold their hands over their ears. "Eww, that didn't decode right. I thought I had the key, but that wasn't it." The second half of the party begins when you're finally able to play the record, and everyone dances in celebration.

      The machine is exposed and celebrated, not hidden.

      And that's why it can't have DRM. You're allowed to understand how it works, whether or not you're a "geek" and bother to do so.

      --
      As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
    10. Re:Not surprising... by QRDeNameland · · Score: 1

      I rember buying the tripple album of Emerson Lake and Palmer. 3 (three) albums. That was unheard of.

      Well, not exactly unheard of. The original Woodstock soundtrack, George Harrison's All Thing's Must Pass, Grateful Dead's Europe '72, and Yessongs are just a few well-known examples of triple LP releases that predate ELP's triple live album.

      --
      Momentarily, the need for the construction of new light will no longer exist.
    11. Re:Not surprising... by brantondaveperson · · Score: 1

      Yes, but are they shooting arrows, riding a horse and listening to vinyl all at the same time??

      Perhaps people who are able to afford it are at an age where it reminds them of their childhood.

      Very likely. I know I am.

  6. Re:It sounds so WARM! by dosius · · Score: 2

    I start to think what they call "warmth" is "muddiness".

    --
    What you hear in the ear, preach from the rooftop Matthew 10.27b
  7. Collecting dust - great choice of words by HBI · · Score: 1

    Static guns and discwasher brushes notwithstanding, vinyl had a lot of issues with dust that people are soon going to discover, if they haven't already.

    --
    HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
    1. Re:Collecting dust - great choice of words by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nah, those pops and crackles from the needle hitting dust particles (or minor scratches) are just part of the whole vinyl rich sound ambience.

      Just wait until I get my Kickstarter going for a device to inject that ambience into your headphones when listening to your phone. It'll be a goldmine!

    2. Re:Collecting dust - great choice of words by CylanR77 · · Score: 1

      You jest but my mp3 player actually has a setting built in that makes the output lo-fi, though it's meant to imitate listening to AM radio rather than vinyl.

      It rolls off a lot of the high frequency and some of the low end, and it also adds noise and random clicks and pops.

      --
      http://cylan.deviantart.com/gallery/
    3. Re:Collecting dust - great choice of words by fhage · · Score: 3, Informative

      I've been "ripping" from vinyl since the early '70s. Dust on records is easy to deal with. See below.

      The big problem is you can't loan out any record you care about. Every time a record is played with a needle, it gets damaged. Just pulling it out of the sleeve is enough to make it a dust magnet. Records skip when you walk across the floor and you have to turn up the amp after the needle is on the record, or you can damage your speakers. CD's were a godsend because you can play them without using sterile technique.

      Most people played their records with needles coated with grit and goo from the last 100 albums. Once enough lint built up, the records would start skipping and people would drag their finger across the needle to "clean" it. People paid well over $100 for a needle cartridge and would drag a dirty, grit covered $40 brush, covered in some goofy $20/oz fluid over every album. Most vinyl and needles get coated with crap and stay that way.

      I worked in a university music library with a valuable record collection and learned to use running water and mild soap, if necessary, in a sink to remove dust, oil and dirt on the playing surface. Vacuum dust from the covers before pulling the records out. Keep water away from the label (towel blot) and let air dry. Stay away from all the expensive machines, brushes and fluids for cleaning albums. A cool water spray is very effective at cleaning a dusty or dirty record and leaves it static free. The needle needs checked and cleaned with a soft brush after each play. Often, it takes some isopropyl alcohol to clean the grease off the needle.

  8. Tell me that was intentional... by silentquasar · · Score: 5, Funny

    "Vinyl album sales smashed records on both sides of the Atlantic in 2014..."

    1. Re:Tell me that was intentional... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It probably was. It was a well-trodden wordplay back when I was a lad.

  9. Makes sense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Now that everyone buys music digitally, the only reason to buy it physically is to collect, or to own something to display your fandom of the band. Vinyl is much better for these purposes than CDs. It is cooler to collect, and the packaging has a much large area for art to display. You can even frame it and hang it on the wall.

    Vinyl LPs, as art in itself, will probably outlast the CD format.

  10. Vinyl? Never bought it, never will by rklrkl · · Score: 0

    I suspect that the majority of households in the UK and US no longer have a vinyl turntable any more now that CDs have been around for 30 years and of those, hardly any would consider buying a turntable any time soon. Even CD players are on a similar downward slide (probably Blu Ray/DVD players keeping them alive more than anything else) with downloads and streaming rapidly becoming the method of choice.

    I never bought vinyl myself because unless you take great care with the discs and have a top quality turntable as well, a well mastered CD (i.e. not horribly compressed) is going to generally sound at least as good as vinyl, if not better. Don't forget it's trivial to back up a CD using a PC (into a myriad of formats including ISO, FLAC, mp3, ogg, wav etc.) and much, much harder to do so with a vinyl record (USB turntables can do it, but they're not a massively popular item).

    The only advantage I can see with vinyl is the larger artwork, but nowadays that's long been replaced by a downloadable digital PDF booklet (which can be resized bigger than the vinyl artwork :-) ).

    1. Re:Vinyl? Never bought it, never will by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thanks for letting us know that you have never bought vinyl, it was most informative. Everything else you suggest is a matter of opinion.

    2. Re:Vinyl? Never bought it, never will by 50000BTU_barbecue · · Score: 1

      Yes, "great care". Not dropping them, keeping them in their sleeve, and using a carbon brush before playing. The burden! The pain!

      --
      Mostly random stuff.
    3. Re:Vinyl? Never bought it, never will by Deb-fanboy · · Score: 1
      It was interesting in the queue at HMV Aberdeen, I had bought a vinyl record, the person in front had bought one and the person behind also.

      I suppose there are a number of people still with a serviceable record player. Recently the store has started stocking vinyl, and so the sale of vinyl there can only go up.

      I would not expect that vinyl would improve much from 4 to 5% of sales, but then that is enough.

      Why are people like myself still willing to buy vinyl? Well I suspect that there are a lot of different reasons. If you are older and have grown up around vinyl, and have a reasonable sized record collection then there is a reason to maintain the record player, and do all the servicing like cartridge changes etc. Vinyl is a pleasant way to listen to music, there is the simplicity of form and function, basicly scratches on plastic and an amplifier.

      If I was starting out now I would never have gone the vinyl route, but I have my old transcription record deck, I refurbished (partly rebuilt) my valve amplifiers (circa 1963 seperate pre- and left / right power amps), redesigned the front end of the valve pre-amp. So as an engineer it is a double pleasure for me to enjoy music on a system which I understand down to the last component.

  11. Quality vinyl pressings are still rare by GreatDrok · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I noticed our local JB hifi has got a whole section of vinyl so had a leaf through. Most of the albums I already have on LP from when they were new and they cost a lot but it is still nice to see. The real problem LPs had back in the late 80's was the quality of the pressings because they were so mass produced and the vinyl was thin plus they were trying to squeeze a CDs worth of music onto the LP so you got shallow grooves and crushed dynamics making them sound much worse than they could. Given the choice between CD and those terrible LPs from that period the CD is hands down the better choice. If these new pressings are done right, they should sound very good assuming the source material is good and I have a few direct to disc LPs which are incredible. I don't tend to use my turntable these days but I have still got it, plus my collection and hope to have the right space to set it up because the experience of listening to a record isn't just about the quality but rather you end up listening to the whole album as a complete piece of work where with CDs or MP3s you would focus more on tracks

    --
    "I have the attention span of a strobe lit goldfish, please get to the point quickly!"
    1. Re:Quality vinyl pressings are still rare by uglyduckling · · Score: 1

      I think that's true. Also, if you look at the 'stack system' integrated pseudo-hifi devices from the 80s and 90s, probably 80% of the value was in the CD player and amp, 10% in the tape deck, 5% in the radio and 5% in the turntable/arm/cartridge combo. So many people at that time thought that vinyl sounded terrible and threw all their records away. Of course, well mastered source material will sound at worst just as good on CD compared to record, and records initially degrade much more quickly. On the other hand, I have several CDs now from my collection of about 300 that don't play - they aren't physically damaged on visual inspection, they just don't play. All of my non-physically-damaged vinyl LPs play, and most sound excellent when cleaned properly and played back on a decent turntable. When I'm a grandparent in 30 years' time, I will be able to play my LPs for my grandchildren (if they're interested) but the chances are most of my CDs will be unplayable by then. A combination of poor mastering, nasty quality pressings, and equally nasty playback equipment duped people into abandoning vinyl well before its time.

    2. Re:Quality vinyl pressings are still rare by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      they were trying to squeeze a CDs worth of music onto the LP

      Fun fact: CD's were originally sized to fit the amount of music that would fit on an LP. They could barely manage 45 minutes. It took the better part of 15 years to increase CD capacities to fit 56, 63, and eventually 74 (by about 1995 or so) minutes of music onto a CD. Around 2000, well after CD-R had taken off, the 80-minute CD's became available.

      Some early players would not play certain types of CD's. I had a cheap-ass player from about 1990 that wouldn't play any discs with a runtime longer than 60 minutes and refused to play center-tracked singles or any non-red-book discs. I had tons of radio station promo discs. Many were singles, some center-tracked, some edge-tracked. One of them had a data track and was written as a white-book hybrid audio/data session with some lame "future of multimedia convergence" crap on it. (Just as an interesting side-point, the white-book hybrid session was how the Sony rootkit was packaged. It's not a "non-standard" format. It's just not the standard you were expecting. Your CD player would be just fine with it, as long as it was made after 1989 or so. And your Windows PC is going to autoplay it. Because it's a standard.)

    3. Re:Quality vinyl pressings are still rare by sound+vision · · Score: 1

      It's very common these days for 1-CD albums to be issued as double LPs, I've even seen 1 CD spread out onto 3 LPs. Some are still issued on 1 LP of course, but they tend to be the shorter ones (under 45 minutes).

    4. Re:Quality vinyl pressings are still rare by GreatDrok · · Score: 1

      The main problem with the replay of vinyl in the future will be getting a working turntable because belts and other polymer components degrade over time just because. My current turntable is 25 years old and it still works fine but I worry about the drive belt and cartridge. However, the strong demand for vinyl suggests I'll still be able to source replacements for some time to come, just as I can easily replace the 6L6 valves in my amp (also 25 years old) whereas a transistor amp of that age would likely be junked if it failed. As for CDs that failed, I was a LaserDisc owner (still am, don't like to get rid of old formats) and laser rot was well known with those analogue discs and it also afflicts CDs where the aluminium oxidises and no longer reflects so the disc just stops playing. With LD it was obvious when it was happening because you got colour flecks on the screen, but with CD it should play fine until it doesn't.

      Anyway, I'm preserving my old equipment and formats for the future as best I can. Sadly, it looks like my NAD cassette deck may have had it if I can't replace the capstan belt which literally fell to pieces when I tried it. Getting the transport apart and back together to put the replacement in is going to be an interesting exercise based on what I've seen having partially dismantled it. Like CDs, tapes don't have a long shelf life so vinyl may well be the best format for long term storage.

      One last comment on the degradation of records - what you were hearing was the mould release agent, basically like a grease layer to allow the pressing to be removed from the mother easily and each time you play the record you move that into the grooves where it picks up dust and also smothers the fine details. Remove that stuff with a solvent and you'll find the vinyl doesn't wear out and it will sound brand new. I've run many 'worn out' records through a solvent cleaner and they come out amazing. A good turntable (mine is an Opus 3 Continuo, in fact it is the prototype for that model) will not suffer from rumble and will also minimise surface noise such that many people couldn't even tell it wasn't a digital source due to the lack of background noise, especially on a cleaned and cared for LP.

      --
      "I have the attention span of a strobe lit goldfish, please get to the point quickly!"
    5. Re:Quality vinyl pressings are still rare by GreatDrok · · Score: 1

      I was buying CDs from 1986 and I certainly had discs which were 70 mins long even then so there certainly were discs longer than 45 mins. It was true that some discs threw the early players for six, but worse than that was the utterly terrible sound of both these early discs and early players. Without oversampling, the brick wall filters produced horrible audible artefacts, and there were real problems with the ADCs used in mastering the discs too. CDs sounded really rough throughout the 80's and it wasn't until the 90's that we started getting recordings on CD that were even close to audiophile quality, plus there were some nice players at that point which paid attention to the analogue components and PSU isolation to prevent electronic noise getting through to the speakers. I had a 16bit 16x oversampling, 8 DAC player at the time which was the first player I had heard that really did sound decent (Cambridge CD2) and compared to the usual CD players it was amazingly good. The whole digital is digital thing was wrong when it came to everything after the DAC, and even the DACs made a big difference. The first time I heard the oversampling players compared with my first gen Sony it was a revelation and the Sony got dumped shortly after with the Technics MASH unit, and then that got dumped for the Cambridge.

      --
      "I have the attention span of a strobe lit goldfish, please get to the point quickly!"
    6. Re:Quality vinyl pressings are still rare by uglyduckling · · Score: 1

      Yep I agree with all of that. I don't think vinyl is "better" than CDs in some magical way, but everything in life is a compromise and vinyl has been unfairly judged in the past. A couple of years ago a friend of mine wanted me to DJ for her 1980s birthday party, I decided to do it properly, bought a couple of crummy DJ turntables on eBay and got out my old records. I had a laptop there for background music during the buffet, and I think a few people thought I was using mp3s and just playing with the turntables for effect. It was only when I put my finger on the record and the music stopped that they actually believed I was playing the music off 7" 45s. No-one complained about the sound quality, most people didn't even notice what I was doing, it was only the technically minded people that were curious. As for me, I had forgotten how tiring it is to choose the next track and cue it up within 2.5 minutes, spinning to the start of the music then turning back a quarter turn... great fun though!

    7. Re:Quality vinyl pressings are still rare by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Fun fact: CD's were originally sized to fit the amount of music that would fit on an LP.

      The fun part about a fact like that is, it's not a fact!

      CD-Audio is defined by the Red Book. The playing time was 74 minutes from the very beginning. Better lasers and tracking allowed non-standard discs that played longer, but they were never intended to match LPs.

  12. LOL ... by gstoddart · · Score: 1

    Vinyl album sales smashed records

    I see what you did there ...

    --
    Lost at C:>. Found at C.
  13. Not 100%... but hipsters by PhrostyMcByte · · Score: 3, Interesting

    There are a few types I see doing this.

    You'll always have those insane people who think Vinyl has better quality than CDs or FLAC... but I imagine they are a pretty small group.

    You've got people who're after the experience -- maybe a more personal feel to having a big physical system that needs more interaction. Again I imagine this is larger than the first group, but still relatively small.

    And finally you've got hipsters, who'll do anything just because nobody else is doing it. Very suspicious that vinyl's popularity starts to grow with a strong correlation to this group's size.

    1. Re:Not 100%... but hipsters by itzly · · Score: 1

      And finally you've got hipsters, who'll do anything just because other hipsters are doing it

      fixed that for you.

    2. Re:Not 100%... but hipsters by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "You'll always have those insane people who think Vinyl has better quality than CDs or FLAC.. "

      How, exactly, are they 'insane'?
      Music, and the listening to, remains an emotional subjective pleasure.
      Finding that vinyl makes for a (subjectively) qualitative better listening experience than CDs; does not, and never will qualify anyone as insane.
      Hyperbolic nonsense. Would otherwise agree, need to keep one eye on those Hipster fucks at all times though.

    3. Re:Not 100%... but hipsters by halivar · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Finding that vinyl makes for a (subjectively) qualitative better listening experience than CDs; does not, and never will qualify anyone as insane.

      Except it's never couched that way by an audiophile. They make wild claims about the math, the curves, compression, and then talk about their blind A-B tests where they swear they can tell the difference between one bajilion kHz and fifteen sisquintillion kHz. They hear the pops and hiss and say, "Oh, oh! This one sounds warmer."

      It's a load of rubbish.

    4. Re:Not 100%... but hipsters by AttillaTheNun · · Score: 1

      We're talking new vinyl sales, so let's put aside the obvious benefits of owning a turntable if you already have a significant vinyl collection.

      I personally believe uncompressed digital formats, starting with Redbook CD, have a greater POTENTIAL in terms of functionality as well as fidelity than vinyl. Unfortunately, this potential has been unfulfilled as the vast majority of digital releases fail to live up to this potential by a fair margin due to poor mastering. The loudness wars has dumbed down the format to such an extent that one of its primary advantages over vinyl - dynamic range - has all but been nullified. The mastering engineers have decided that you and your playback devices are too stupid to set the volume to your liking so they've made the decision for you - typically 11 out of 10.

      Ironically, most vinyl releases sound better than their digital counterparts simply because their volume hasn't been jacked to ridiculous levels at the mastering stage.

    5. Re:Not 100%... but hipsters by AttillaTheNun · · Score: 1

      Oh and here's an interesting comparison of different analog and digital masterings OF THE SAME SOURCE MATERIAL done by a professional mastering engineer.

      http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/...

    6. Re:Not 100%... but hipsters by raxx7 · · Score: 1

      Listening to music is highly emotional and subjective.
      Claiming that vinyl, somehow, allows for a better one that CD is not subjective.
      Knowledge of human hearing, audio signals all point to one thing, confirmed by blind tests: if you take a vinyl and properly record into a CD-R, or FLAC, people can't tell the difference.

    7. Re:Not 100%... but hipsters by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It depends on the genre. Most Classical and Jazz releases I've seen are not subject to the loudness war.

  14. Vinyl as an instrument. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    DJ'ing has gone so far down the toilet with fake vinyl (i.e Serato). I wouldn't mind seeing real records used again at DMC championships.

    1. Re:Vinyl as an instrument. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      +1

      Usually you only see DJs mixing vinyl at select underground parties here in SoCal, and usually done by old school DJs that have been mixing since the 80s/90s

      Hopefully there will be a growth in vinyl DJ in the coming years.

    2. Re:Vinyl as an instrument. by NotDrWho · · Score: 1

      Most of what passes for "DJ'ing" today is what used to be called "Pressing Play on An iPad."

      --
      SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
  15. Smashing records? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is Tipper Gore back?

  16. Re: Lol, yes, you are 100% correct by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I wonder if you can get a 7 inch single of "Bigger Hatin Me" by Johnny Rebel.

  17. where to buy vinyl records? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ebay? I don't see any brick and mortar stores that sell vinyl. Just wondering.

  18. Analog, still better than digital by smooth+wombat · · Score: 0

    Don't have to worry about a company telling you you can't listen to the music you already purchased.

    Knobs and buttons are far superior to crappy touchscreens when trying to change stations.

    No ridiculous black bars down the side of a picture when the camera is held vertically.

    When the power goes out, an analog phone line doesn't die or need a charger.

    No reading a manual to figure out how to set your a/c or heating controls.

    Typewriters never lose your documents.

    As a general rule, you can fix a broken analog device for less than the cost of a new digital one.

    A compass never needs a satellite to tell you which way is North.

    You'll never see a 0x00000008 error on a piece of paper.

    --
    We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
    1. Re:Analog, still better than digital by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >Don't have to worry about a company telling you you can't listen to the music you already purchased.
      DRM problem, not digital per se. Also, watermarks.

      >Knobs and buttons are far superior to crappy touchscreens when trying to change stations.
      Agreed 100%. Touchscreen for many applications is a move backwards.

      >When the power goes out, an analog phone line doesn't die or need a charger.
      That "analog phones lines" can stay up has nothing to do with digital vs. analog.
      POTS have been digital on the network side for a very, very long time. The handset in your house almost certainly has digital components unless it's decades old.
      Cordless POTS phones still need to be charged and won't work any better than your cell phone in a prolonged outage.
      Cell towers and their networks are kept online with generators and battery backup.

      >No reading a manual to figure out how to set your a/c or heating controls.
      Never had to read a manual to figure out my digital thermostat.

      Also, first transmission system was digital: telegraph. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

    2. Re:Analog, still better than digital by Richy_T · · Score: 1

      Wow. There is just so much wrong here...

    3. Re:Analog, still better than digital by Mal-2 · · Score: 1

      Knobs and buttons are far superior to crappy touchscreens when trying to change stations.

      Agreed, but digital radios can (and often do) have buttons and knobs. What's nice is that in many cases you can decide what a given control does, rather than it being hard-wired at the factory.

      No ridiculous black bars down the side of a picture when the camera is held vertically.

      Huh? Never had that problem with an actual camera, digital or film. Your problem is with phones and other devices pretending to be cameras, to greater or lesser degrees of success.

      When the power goes out, an analog phone line doesn't die or need a charger.

      And VoIP has a built-in battery backup for this exact reason.

      No reading a manual to figure out how to set your a/c or heating controls.

      That's because they only do one thing -- keep the temperature roughly between two defined points. If that's all you want to do with a digital thermostat, you don't need to read anything either. You only need the reference card (and I do mean card, it's the size of a credit card) if you want to do something like have it automatically expand the allowable temperature range during hours when nobody is home, or everyone is asleep. Having to read the card is a far sight better than a simple "NOPE, can't do that".

      Typewriters never lose your documents.

      Nope, they just spit out paper for you to lose, damage, or destroy instead. Incidentally, so do printers.

      As a general rule, you can fix a broken analog device for less than the cost of a new digital one.

      Again, this depends on what it does. Try working split on a tube transceiver from the 1970s, and tell me with a straight face that things going solid-state in the 1980s wasn't a MASSIVE improvement. Reliability improved, ruggedness improved, feature set improved, and prices stayed about the same. Once the feature set started to level off, prices started to drop.

      Now if you're talking about a guitar amp, you might have a more valid point (so long as the Russians keep making tubes).

      A compass never needs a satellite to tell you which way is North.

      That's because it can't tell you which way is north, only which direction the magnetic pole approximating north lies in. Depending on where you are, the two could be substantially different. Compasses are a good basic sanity check for other data, but precise, they are not.

      I'm not claiming digital is always better, but most of your examples are poor ones.

      --
      How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
    4. Re:Analog, still better than digital by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 1

      Don't have to worry about a company telling you you can't listen to the music you already purchased.

      There were plenty of attempts at analog DRM.. I mean RM.

      No ridiculous black bars down the side of a picture when the camera is held vertically.

      That's nothing to do with analog or digital. That's to do with phones, which are usually held and operated in portrait mode, having their camera in the same orientation as the screen, for obvious reasons.

      Typewriters never lose your documents.

      They also remain resolutely silent when asked to search for that thing you typed 18 months ago, though.

      A compass never needs a satellite to tell you which way is North.

      Neither does my phone.

      --
      systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
    5. Re:Analog, still better than digital by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Agreed, but digital radios can (and often do) have buttons and knobs. What's nice is that in many cases you can decide what a given control does, rather than it being hard-wired at the factory.

      Yeah, maybe if you build the radio yourself or spend several hundred quid/dollars on it. For most people in the UK, digital radio (DAB) means a device built on one of a couple of chips means they all have pretty much the same fixed controls using el cheapo buttons - and you only have to pay at least three times as much and get a runtime on batteries measured in hours rather than weeks.

      Huh? Never had that problem with an actual camera, digital or film. Your problem is with phones and other devices pretending to be cameras, to greater or lesser degrees of success.

      "No true camera..."

      And VoIP has a built-in battery backup for this exact reason.

      Uh are you arguing for parity with analogue landlines because anyone could potentially buy a UPS...?

      Nope, they just spit out paper for you to lose, damage, or destroy instead. Incidentally, so do printers.

      Oh please. I have stuff in the family that's 100+ years old and in perfectly readable condition and all I had to do was store it somewhere warm and dry. If one or two pieces of paper have had the ink fade, do you know how much that affects adjacent documents? Not at all. What will happen if I store a hard drive or optical media somewhere warm and dry for 100 years, please?

      Again, this depends on what it does. Try working split on a tube transceiver from the 1970s, and tell me with a straight face that things going solid-state in the 1980s wasn't a MASSIVE improvement. Reliability improved, ruggedness improved, feature set improved, and prices stayed about the same. Once the feature set started to level off, prices started to drop.

      Err, solid state != digital.

      That's because it can't tell you which way is north, only which direction the magnetic pole approximating north lies in. Depending on where you are, the two could be substantially different.

      Indeed. A decade old compass+paper map always and immediately tells me near enough for all my navigational needs. A GPS system eventually locks when the weather's in the right mood and I have enough battery on my receiver and all the electronics are healthy and...

    6. Re:Analog, still better than digital by Mal-2 · · Score: 1

      Huh? Never had that problem with an actual camera, digital or film. Your problem is with phones and other devices pretending to be cameras, to greater or lesser degrees of success.

      "No true camera..."

      The category of "multifunction devices that just happen to have a functional camera included" didn't exist in the film days, outside of spy-catalog novelties that took pictures as bad as the ones you're lamenting. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask that you compare a dedicated film camera to a dedicated digital camera.

      Also, I take far more pictures with a digital camera than I did with a film SLR, and I was pretty serious about it back in the film days. Back then, even when I could get my film processed free (which was doable, you just had to know the right people and not consume anything that could be inventoried), I still had to BUY the film. Now all I have to worry about is charging some batteries. I take an order of magnitude more pictures now than I did then, because they're damn near free. If I get one truly worth archiving, I could have it copied to archival film -- the same process I'd have to do if it STARTED on film, because even the photojournalist film I preferred doesn't last forever.

      My "keeper rate" has gone down, probably to a third of what it was on film. But I'm taking ten times as many images overall, and have the economic freedom to bracket and otherwise screw with multiple settings in difficult circumstances. Plus, I can immediately look at the result to see if I got the shot, or if I need to try again. The end result is that I get a lot more keepers, at the expense of some charge cycles on my batteries. I haven't even burned out the 2 GB SD card I've had in the camera for the last eight years.

      And VoIP has a built-in battery backup for this exact reason.

      Uh are you arguing for parity with analogue landlines because anyone could potentially buy a UPS...?

      I'm saying that one thing you're not going to get over a fiber-connected VoIP system is power, but the phone company took that into account and did something about it. If the problem is sufficiently severe that you can't restore power before the battery keels over, then there's a damn good chance your POTS line wouldn't be working either -- due to physical disconnection, or lack of power at the CO. Even though they have generators, they do eventually run out of fuel too.

      Nope, they just spit out paper for you to lose, damage, or destroy instead. Incidentally, so do printers.

      Oh please. I have stuff in the family that's 100+ years old and in perfectly readable condition and all I had to do was store it somewhere warm and dry. If one or two pieces of paper have had the ink fade, do you know how much that affects adjacent documents? Not at all. What will happen if I store a hard drive or optical media somewhere warm and dry for 100 years, please?

      I'd rather have paper and a scanned copy that can be kept somewhere else. Without going digital, what are you going to do? Ask someone to store a safe full of photocopies in their attic for you? All I have to do currently is swap external drives with someone. I get to raid their media collection, they get to raid mine, and we BOTH get an offsite backup. Is it permanent? No. But neither is film, nor is most paper. Yes there are archival papers, and archival film stock, but those have to be specifically chosen. Ordinary consumer-grade celluloid falls apart in a matter of decades. And don't even start with fire, flooding, or E-flats.

      Analog is "better" in the sense that it existed first, so much of what you want to document is analog. If it was created digitally, then a digital copy is "better" in the sense of being able to produce more precise reproductions.

      Again, this depends on what it does. Try working split on

      --
      How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
    7. Re:Analog, still better than digital by brantondaveperson · · Score: 1

      When the power goes out, an analog phone line doesn't die or need a charger.

      We had an earthquake. Power didn't work, phone didn't work, internet (ADSL) didn't work. Cellphone worked. Just saying'.

    8. Re:Analog, still better than digital by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1. This isn't an issue with CD either, or in fact MP3.

      2. Not really.

      3. Same for displaying the photos on your monitor. You do own a monitor with tilt and swivel right? Oh, no...poor you.

      4. Analog phones require a constant supply of power from the telephone company. If the powers out, there's a decent chance it's going to be out on your phone as well.

      5. I pity the cool who needs to read a manual to operate their air conditioner / heater.

      6. Typewriters don't store documents, so there is nothing to lose. Perhaps you were thinking of a filing cabinet?

      7. Analog watches...fucking expensive, digital watches, given away free with a happy meal. Valve amplifiers, fucking expensive. Digital amplifiers cost about the same as a single valve, and you may need several valves for each half of a stereo valve amplifier. Nothing made today is designed to be repaired. It's usually cheaper to throw it out and replace it. My fridge / washing machine / drier etc are all analog and none of them would be worth the cost of a service call to repair.

      8. A compass only points to an approximation of where true north is. Good luck working out where it is without knowing your current location and having a table of figures to adjust your declination.

      9. You do if you press PRTSCN.

    9. Re:Analog, still better than digital by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My "keeper rate" has gone down, probably to a third of what it was on film. But I'm taking ten times as many images overall, and have the economic freedom to bracket and otherwise screw with multiple settings in difficult circumstances. Plus, I can immediately look at the result to see if I got the shot, or if I need to try again. The end result is that I get a lot more keepers, at the expense of some charge cycles on my batteries. I haven't even burned out the 2 GB SD card I've had in the camera for the last eight years.

      Goodness, I'm certainly not denying that digital media are better than film for putting in cameras. But the problem here is that there's so much potential to fuck up / be lazy once you move to mass-produced digital tech, and humans - being humans - do. So, for want of a bit of firmware, you end up with a product that should be usable as an old cheapo film camera, but ends up being even less decent than that.

      I'm saying that one thing you're not going to get over a fiber-connected VoIP system is power, but the phone company took that into account and did something about it.

      Um, clarify for me please? A POTS landline is powered via the 'phone company, and in the regions I've lived in the UK - from remote Scotland to urban Sussex - I have never had a dead line due to power outage, even when bad weather has killed electricity for a day or so. Perhaps BT are better than the average 'phone company at this. How is an on-premises VoIP system powered by the 'phone company?

      I'd rather have paper and a scanned copy that can be kept somewhere else.

      Yes, definitely, agreed. But If I store decent paper (for documents or photos) in a cool (I didn't mean warm, sorry!) dry place for a century, and any form of digital media for a century - no maintenance, because people die and shit gets forgotten and recovered - then I know which one of the two media is more likely to still be usable. We may produce a whole lot of data, but almost all of that data is going to be lost within a few years. People are even more stupidly exclusively relying on "cloud" storage these days. You can shout "backup!" as much as you want - and I shout this word regularly on deaf ears for years before their owners losing all their shit - but the fact is that too many people think that one medium is enough, in which case that one medium is best analogue.

      Digital displays are MUCH easier to use when you need to know what frequency you're on to three decimal places. It's far better than analog dials.

      As far as UIs go, if I only get one input and one feedback, I'll take an analog dial plus a digital readout. Hit me up with a keypad for a secondary interface, then. Whether commercial broadcast or amateur radio, I am the sort who likes to look around to see what's available - I haven't already decided what I do/don't like and I am willing to change.

      The inadequacy of the controls of many radios is a design problem. They suck because it was cheaper to make them suck.

      Indeed. This isn't an analog/digital thing - it's the same old Most Stuff Is Shit thing. The more complex something is, the more opportunity there is to make it shit, unfortunately.

      A paper map is great, if you have some idea where you are, and can dedicate the attention necessary to locate yourself on it. GPS is far from foolproof, and having the skill to read a map (and having one in the glove box) is certainly a wise precaution,

      I studied geography and did orienteering at school. OK, my school was a bit unusual - many of the students were in the CCF and half of my friends were well-trained in firearms by the age of 16 - but the former two disciplines really ought to be part of any child's curriculum. It's not just because of the utility of the skills themselves, but because having a brain able to map locations out is

    10. Re: Analog, still better than digital by mdmenzel · · Score: 1

      Now get off my lawn!

    11. Re:Analog, still better than digital by Mal-2 · · Score: 1

      Um, clarify for me please? A POTS landline is powered via the 'phone company, and in the regions I've lived in the UK - from remote Scotland to urban Sussex - I have never had a dead line due to power outage, even when bad weather has killed electricity for a day or so. Perhaps BT are better than the average 'phone company at this. How is an on-premises VoIP system powered by the 'phone company?

      We've never had the need or opportunity to test this, but the sealed lead-acid battery built into the VoIP box that is attached to our fiber connection promises two hours of talk time and 36 hours of standby time with no power applied. If true, this would mean that we too could pass the dial tone test after 24 hours of continuous power outage. We did not buy this equipment, this facility was built into equipment provided by Verizon, presumably because they knew it was unacceptable to let phone service go out in the event of power failure.

      --
      How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
  19. Physical media by brunes69 · · Score: 1

    If one is going to buy the physical media version of an album, why WOULDN'T they get the Vinyl?

    1. Re:Physical media by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They can always buy Reel to Reel tape.

    2. Re:Physical media by jeffmflanagan · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Because of the low quality, getting even worse over time, and large size. This is why rational people transitioned to better media, leaving just the hipsters with this now-totally-inadequate technology.

    3. Re:Physical media by jetkust · · Score: 1

      I've seen them for sale in Urban Outfitters, and Barns & Noble. Probably seen them other places too.

    4. Re:Physical media by pr0fessor · · Score: 1

      I know a few people who still buy vinyl because of the art work especially the ones with the artwork on the vinyl and never actually play them.

      Now about quality... When I was a kid I had crates of albums and later cassette tapes then cds now it all fits on a single mp3 player and they all sound different but none of them sound the same as live. If I pull out a album that i've has since highschool and play it that would be nostalgia, not hipster wanna be garbage...

  20. Duration of a vinyl side by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A vinyl side is 18-25 minutes long. After it ends, others in the room will be usually be consulted on what the next side will be. That's pretty close to ideal - much shorter than that and the constant duty interrupts the flow of conversation. Much longer than that, you have audio CDs where you might have to sit through an hour or more of something that is not terrible (otherwise people would've voted it out), but maybe not what most people want to be listening to at that moment.

    1. Re:Duration of a vinyl side by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      After it ends, others in the room will be usually be consulted on what the next side will be.

      How many sides do vinyls have nowadays?

    2. Re:Duration of a vinyl side by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But do groups of people actually sit and listen to recorded music in a room like we used to as teens (1970s)? Music has become disposable. Everything is background sound now. An LP used to be an expensive item for me. You thought hard about music purchases and cherished a small set of albums which you studied meticulously. Now, everyone has ipods or similar. Our fundamental relationship with music has changed. Music no longer represents a "youth rebellion" or massive social change, the very idea is laughable. Popular music is now throwaway crap. I feel sorry for today's kids who never had experienced the 1970s first hand, but I feel even more envious of the older people who lived the 1960s when I was too young, Oh to have been part of the 60s youth explosion.

  21. you know its not cool by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    replying to your own post right?

  22. Pathetic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Vinyl is for fetishists and trendoids. I am shocked we didn't see an effort to revive clay cylinders, you know because the sound was so "pure." Vinyl is the hipster beard for the next little while then it will return to the grave.

    1. Re:Pathetic by 50000BTU_barbecue · · Score: 1

      What if I just like the look? I also have two reel to reel tape decks. It's FUN to watch reels.

      --
      Mostly random stuff.
  23. Its audio quality compared to a CD is debatable by cardpuncher · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It's debatable in the same way as the audio quality of regular speaker cable compared with gold-plated oxygen-free copper cable is debatable. It's not a long debate.

    If you look at the equipment the analogue-faddists are using, it is for the most part not the high-end audio equipment of a previous generation, but retro-reproductions of the portable record players teenagers used to have in their bedrooms, record players that sounded terrible then and sound just as bad now. The only thing that's changed is that there were a lot of genuinely hi-fi systems around in those days for comparison. These days tiny speakers with wildly exaggerated bass are the norm on pretty much everything you buy from mobile phones to TV sound bars; it's hardly surprising that the sound from a Dansette record player sounds better by comparison.

    I still have the speakers I used with my pre-CD sound system and I don't regret ditching a turntable for the first model of CD player that was available - the sound quality is superior in every respect (noise, frequency response, dynamic range). Vinyl records are the audio equivalent of Instagram - washed out, artifically-coloured facsimiles of the original that have become a passing fashion.

    1. Re:Its audio quality compared to a CD is debatable by hey! · · Score: 1

      You totally missed the point, which that the LP form factor is fun.

      I took the original poster's "debatable" to mean "not worth debating", which of course a much more common than the sense you're using ("something worth debating").

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    2. Re:Its audio quality compared to a CD is debatable by mlts · · Score: 1

      I've always liked the old standby -- using studio monitors [1] and amps. They get just as loud as the audiophile stuff, but are engineered to have a flat response. That way, if I want boomy bass (no clue why), I can boost using parametric EQ. The ironic thing is that the price of studio items isn't cheap, but is reasonable, and you get what you pay for, as opposed to the snake oil audiophile stuff (studio monitors don't need to sit on quartz-free granite from Scotland, for example... they are just A-OK on a stand, mounted to a wall, on a desk, or sitting on the floor, depending on size and preference.)

      What I wonder about is how a LP made these days compares to a LP made back before CDs. Will it be mixed the same, or will it be compressed [2] one hair before 0dB, just like almost any recent album mix?

      [1]: The speakers, that is. Not the screen, nor the lizard.

      [2]: Dynamic range compression... loud sounds get damped, quiet ones get boosted. Not audio compression like MPEG.

    3. Re:Its audio quality compared to a CD is debatable by TWX · · Score: 0

      CD is compressed compared to the full possible range of reproduction from an analog source, such that extremely high and low frequencies are left out of the recording. It is possible to get better sound out of vinyl than a CD in the right circumstances. Admittedly, this requires one to shop at Bang and Olufsen and to spend ten to twenty times more for all of the equipment than one spends at Best Buy or Fry's Electronics, but having listened to the B&O system that my aunt and uncle have, I don't doubt that it's true.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    4. Re:Its audio quality compared to a CD is debatable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Really, nothing requires one to shop at B&O except perhaps the condition of having more money then sense.

    5. Re:Its audio quality compared to a CD is debatable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Digital compression (CD) is an entirely different technique than analog compression (stuff like the original Dolby). It's not particularly frequency-sensitive, and especially not at a 44Khz sample rate, which is only going to offend dogs, cats and bats.

      I stopped worrying about "100% accurate" reproduction a long time ago. I don't have the ability to reshape my listening room into exact acoustic conformance with every studio, stage and concert hall my recordings came from. A lot of pop performers aren't playing for "fidelity" anyhow, they're playing for a form of distortion that pleases them - having tinkered with the instruments to get it - and what they hear while playing isn't what someone facing them hears on top of that.

      So as long as I enjoy what I hear, that's fine. I want to hear the coins in "Money", the 2-note bass "zing" in "Money for Nothing", and the fuzz in Hendrix, but I'm not going to buy solid-palladium speaker cables or whatever.

    6. Re:Its audio quality compared to a CD is debatable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You totally missed the point, which that the LP form factor is fun.

      I took the original poster's "debatable" to mean "not worth debating", which of course a much more common than the sense you're using ("something worth debating").

      Well, that LP audio quality is inferior vs CD isn't really debatable, it is an easily verifiable fact. That the LP form factor is big and physical is also a fact.

    7. Re:Its audio quality compared to a CD is debatable by brantondaveperson · · Score: 1

      That is all total nonsense. CD can be compressed, but the compression required when mastering vinyl is normally more than mastering a CD due to the limited physical space for the grooves. Extremely high frequencies (whatever that means, presumably you mean greater than 20kHz - which, no matter what you say, you can't hear) are removed when mastering too. Unless the recording engineer has gone out of their way to make the CD sound terrible, it will always sound better than the vinyl.

      Much ink has been spilt on the subject of sound quality - but the reality is that it simply doesn't matter very much at all. Most of us are completely terrible at measuring sound quality anyway, and even more of us don't really care that much.

      And Bang and Olufsen? The 80's called, they want their high end audio back.

    8. Re:Its audio quality compared to a CD is debatable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Go to a live acoustic (orchestra, folk, etc.) concert and recalibrate your ears. You can reproduce the dynamic range of the concert with a CD (if you want to), but not with vinyl. Even an analog master (let alone copies) that captures the full dynamic range is almost impossible to find - only the latest ones with the best recorders using well-tuned studio Dolby or dBX can come close. Digital covers the range as a matter of course, even with fairly low-end (otherwise) equipment.

      When I rip my old records, especially classical, in addition to the usual cleanup of ticks, pops, and hiss, I usually throw a touch of downward expander on them. Makes the digital results sound much better.

  24. Re:It sounds so WARM! by NotDrWho · · Score: 4, Funny

    (and some gasoline)

    Well, *I* use whale oil, which burns much cleaner and with a warmer flame. But you mainstream types probably wouldn't appreciate it.

    --
    SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
  25. Vinyl's growth by Orp · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I'm a self-proclaimed "audiophile" but not in the annoying, trust-my-ears-only way that plagues the hobby (I'm a scientist, dammit). I have a nice tube amp, great speakers, subwoofer, etc.... and I have a turntable as well (and a network enabled player + nice DAC). Anyhoo.... I can speak to the non-hipster side of things. Yes, some of the growth of vinyl has a faddish aspect to it. But, keep in mind, many musicphiles and audiophiles never stopped collecting and buying vinyl even through the meteoric rise of CD.

    If you are a major music fan (and do not have an unlimited supply of pirated needledrops on the internet), a turntable is essential. A lot of obscure stuff was never released on CD. A lot of stuff that was released from the past on CD sounded (and continues to sound) dreadful due to the mad scramble to ride the CD wave; nth generation tapes, some equalized for vinyl, were used as the source material. Thankfully a lot of stuff these days that is selling is remastered versions of old stuff from original master tapes (not copies). You can be cyincal about this (say the major labels are just milking old warhorses) and you can also acknowledge that the digital audio technology has increased astoundingly since the late 80s and 90s. What does this have to do with vinyl? Well, vinyl can sound really good if done well. I won't argue that it is a better medium than digital; it simply isn't. But it has its own charms.

    I have bought vinyl reissues that were mastered very well, and the vinyl was quiet, lacking surface noise - but about a third of the time I get burned with either lousy mastering (sibilance and related issues - and I have a very good microline cart) or more commonly, ticks and pops in shrinkwrapped new vinyl (and run through a we clean). This is the way it has always been and will always be with vinyl.

    A primary motivation I have for buying new vinyl releases of new music is to acquire recordings that haven't been as dynamically squashed in the digital mastering process. While vinyl releases can be very dynamically compressed as well, as a rule, vinyl releases tend to be mastered with more dynamic range than the digital version (you could argue that this is partly, or mostly due, to physical limitations of the vinyl medium). And yes, I acknowledge that most vinyl is either digitally sourced or goes through an ADA conversion.

    But mostly I continue to buy vinyl because it's fun - it's part of a hobby I enjoy very much. Spending hours just sitting "in the sweet spot" and listening to music (from any source - digital, tape, vinyl or whatever) is something I enjoy. So while people scoff at the vinyl "revival" I'm just glad to see there are more choices our there for getting good sounding music.

    --
    A squid eating dough in a polyethylene bag is fast and bulbous, got me?
    1. Re:Vinyl's growth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      If you are a major music fan ... a turntable is essential.
       
      No. Just no.
       
      It's nonsense like this that gets people laughing at the "audiophile" label. You can be a major music fan without having a 1 of 6 copy of some Fugazi 7" recorded like at the 9:30. You can be a major music fan without owning some yellow vinyl pressing of Danger Live by Tangerine Dream. You can be a major music fan without feeling the need to own the perfect mastering of every recording in your collection.
       
      Maybe I'm not as "major" as you are with my meager 1500 (legally bought) albums. Maybe I can't compare to your level with my 500USD pair of Sennheisers. I'm also not dropping a couple hundred dollars on getting wooden knobs or golden cables either.
       
      At this point in time I have exactly 1 vinyl album in my collection. The real reason that vinyl is making a comeback is because a number of artists are having a hard time selling their goods at 10 dollars a pop on iTunes are trying to push out limited editions of everything and vinyl is just one part of the equation. It makes people feel good knowing that an album that might sell 50,000 copies has a limited run, signed by the artist of 100. For this they'll pay a premium just to wave their copy of Neil Sadaka's I Must be Dreaming over their heads as they scream "See! I'm the biggest and bestest fan in Idaho!!!"
       
      Vinyl is a pain. I really wish that artists didn't have to resort to this kind of thing because I've seen some of it in my preferred genres and I just want a digital download at this point. I know that most of the artist I listen to have a small steady audience and downloads are killing them... putting out music isn't cheap... but I just hate the trend.
       
      Does this make me less of a "major" music fan? IMHO, no. If it does to you than you can take your elitist attitude and shove it. And yes, you can be a major music fan without being some uppity audiophile and you can be an audiophile without being a major music fan.

    2. Re:Vinyl's growth by halivar · · Score: 2

      I'm also not dropping a couple hundred dollars on getting wooden knobs or golden cables either.

      I bet you didn't get boutique magnetic cable lifts either, you cultural barbarian.

    3. Re:Vinyl's growth by Orp · · Score: 1

      My only point is really undebatable. If, for instance, I want to listen to Wilderness Road's eponymous album, I have to listen to the vinyl, or somebody's copy of it. And it's a fucking great album and I don't need someone telling me that I'm an idiot for wanting to be able to listen to it.

      Some real nutty music fans still spin 78s, can you believe it? Lot of music on those shellac platters never made it to any other format.

      You cut yourself out of a surprisingly large amount of music (I'm talking about old stuff mostly) if you don't have a turntable.

      --
      A squid eating dough in a polyethylene bag is fast and bulbous, got me?
    4. Re:Vinyl's growth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lot of music on those shellac platters never made it to any other format.

      Since you've already gone through all the trouble, I hope you rip those albums and publish them to bittorrent.

    5. Re:Vinyl's growth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Vinyl actually sounds better than badly encoded MP3s, so it has its place, but it is far to bothersome for me. May vinyl records rest in peace (or pieces).

    6. Re:Vinyl's growth by johncandale · · Score: 1

      (I'm a scientist, dammit).

      Protip: you are delusional.

      It is impossible to to be objective about a subjective experience. that is why even you 'scientists' use double blind studies and ask for peer review and repeatable results. You listed 4 paragraphs about why vinyls are Superior, half them only being about old releases which would not be relevant to new sales then in the last paragraph said your real reason. Because they are fun. This is classic rationaling. You can rationalize any behavior, to yourself.

    7. Re:Vinyl's growth by Orp · · Score: 1

      It is impossible to to be objective about a subjective experience.

      No, it is not.

      --
      A squid eating dough in a polyethylene bag is fast and bulbous, got me?
  26. Re:It sounds so WARM! by damn_registrars · · Score: 1

    (and some gasoline)

    Well, *I* use whale oil, which burns much cleaner and with a warmer flame. But you mainstream types probably wouldn't appreciate it.

    I have been hard at work cloning dinosaurs from mosquito DNA so I can raise them and make them into oil myself; the overall experience is vastly superior to your silliness with slaughtering those new-age whales. I'm also manufacturing new vacuum tubes for my unbeatable analog system, but you wouldn't understand how it works so I won't bother telling you, you silly modern sell-out.

    --
    Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
  27. The Hipsters were right on one thing, though... by damn_registrars · · Score: 1

    Green Day does not deserve to be inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. At least, not the Green Day that put out American Idiot - an argument could be made for the Green Day that put out Kerplunk but they haven't been heard from in about 20 yars.

    --
    Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
    1. Re:The Hipsters were right on one thing, though... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sadly, rock and roll music seems to be almost dead as a mass mainstream grassroots form and is becoming a museum form like academic jazz or classical. There may never be any more new bands with electric guitars and drums doing totally radically new rock and roll, what we have now is a preppy fringe of arthouse or pseudo counter culture bands, or professional "tribute" cover bands doing tours, all trying to recreate something like the former GLORY of 1950s-1980s rock music with its incredible innovation. It's not that they're terrible, it's just that there are no new Beatles, no new Rolling Stones, no new Mowtown or Punk or even Disco. What we have now is an electronic, accountant-generated mashup. It's not rock music.

  28. Personally by Dunbal · · Score: 4, Funny

    I'm waiting for punch cards to come back. You just don't get the same experience when loading your program on cassette tape.

    --
    Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    1. Re:Personally by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Punch cards just sound better, too. We should be storing our music on punch cards. Sure typing out all those rows of 1's and 0's takes time, but it's worth it in the end. You should hear Dark Side of the Moon from punch cards.

  29. technology is cyclical by blogagog · · Score: 1

    I'm getting a 10" black and white TV

    1. Re:technology is cyclical by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm getting a 10" black and white TV

      Because it will sound better in black and white.

  30. Re:It sounds so WARM! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yeah, GP is clearly just a poseur. He probably goes to some midwestern college where his fraternity thinks whale oil is cutting edge.

  31. Article about artificial loudness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Maybe vinyl helps to get away from the loss of dynamic range caused by artificially increasing the perceived loudness of a work. Take a look at point #4 in the following article:

    #4. Reducing Sound Quality So You Perceive a Song as "Louder"
    http://www.cracked.com/article_20256_5-things-record-labels-dont-want-you-to-know-they-do.html

  32. Nah... by fyngyrz · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ...what makes Vinyl the perfect DRM is that it starts out degraded. Far less open dynamic range (not to mention a dynamic range that depends on the amount of data you're trying to pack onto the surface), concomitant shorter playing times, lower signal to noise ratio, poorer channel separation, less resistant to injury and corruption by everything from dust to hair to poor tracking angle, improper tracking force, wow, flutter, warping, groove wear, non-linearities in the stylus coil assemblies, inherent vulnerability to acoustic feedback, and in almost every case, low frequency limits you *can* sense, and soon-to-be-work-off high frequency capacities that you can't sense, but which won't matter if you simply play it a few times in a row, as you'll destroy the fine detail as the tiny, steep modulations in the vinyl haven't had time to recover (spring back into place and recover their elasticity) from the last time the stylus slammed into it, so they will instead, erode.

    Of course you do have room for better album art and liner detail/notes, and you just can't knock what came with Cheech and Chong's Big Bambu, truly a watermark event in consumer relations.

    And don't even get me started on the tube mythologies.

    What this boils down to in the audio sense, in all cases except for two exceptions -- when you're playing vinyl you simply don't have a digital source for or when the digital source has been compressed and the vinyl hasn't -- is that consumers have been duped by Audiophile mythology. Badly duped.

    There's every reason to have a turntable in your system, as high-performance as your budget can stand, so you can manage those two exceptions. No point in depriving yourself of something just because there's no adequate digital version. But barring those use cases, if your ears are actually working, you want a CD or better.

    signed (Musician, music lover, engineer, recording engineer), me.

    PS: You want to hear what a CD is actually capable of (and so also learn what crappy recording techniques and mastering houses have been cheating you out of), go get yourself a few CDs from TELARC, and listen on a good system. No vinyl on the planet can even come close -- and that's just how it should be. Why don't all CDs (and up) sound like that? The vast majority of it can be attributed to bad recording practice and far too much compression (but I repeat myself.) Google "Loudness wars" and learn the ins and outs. It's both fascinating and sad.

    PPS: Not associated with TELARC, except they've gotten a lot of my money already, and are going to get more. :)

    --
    I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    1. Re:Nah... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      " Far less open dynamic range ("

      Which all doesn't matter since speakers don't exactly have 120dB range either... I always wonder why such illusory specs are important to a certain set of geeks. It's like arguing about the handling of a 1960s muscle car near light speed. It barely gets to 55 MPH, so what's the point?

    2. Re:Nah... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What range DO speakers have?

    3. Re:Nah... by newcastlejon · · Score: 4, Funny

      What range DO speakers have?

      Depends. I can get my PC speakers about thirty feet. As for the floor standing ones, I have to toss them like cabers... so about ten feet.

      --
      If God forks the Universe every time you roll a die, he'd better have a damned good memory.
    4. Re:Nah... by Pentium100 · · Score: 1

      Or I may want a reel tape, played on a tape deck that has vacuum tubes.

      Yes, I fully understand that tubes have worse specs than transistors. A couple of tape recorders that I have (that use tubes) are objectively worse than my transistor tape decks. However, listening to older music (like the Beatles) is much more enjoyable on the tube devices, the sound is "different". At the same time, if I want to record a more modern song I'll use one of my transistor tape decks.

      And yes, I am sure that with enough DSPs it would be possible to digitally produce the "tube sound", but then I have to ask - why would I want it? I already have the devices, I can use them and also it's not just the sound, it's the whole experience of playing a record or a reel tape that makes it "better" than digital for me.

    5. Re:Nah... by sound+vision · · Score: 1

      A vinyl record gets you 40 - 60 dB of dynamic range, not 120. It can be less if you are trying to fit lots of material on the record, anything more than 20 minutes per side and you'll need to start lowering the volume of the music in order to reduce the spacing between the grooves (damaging signal-to-noise ratio in the process). 16-bit PCM like you have on a CD delivers 96 dB of dynamic range, regardless of running time.

    6. Re:Nah... by Nethead · · Score: 1

      If your're playing anything under 15 IPS then it's going to be muddy.

      --
      -- I have a private email server in my basement.
    7. Re:Nah... by fyngyrz · · Score: 5, Informative

      Which all doesn't matter since speakers don't exactly have 120dB range either

      No.

      Vinyl's dynamic range is about 70 dB on its best, never-been-played before, coming to you on monstrously expensive equipment, precision-mastered day. IOW, you almost certainly don't own any vinyl that is that good, and if you've played it even once, it's not that good anymore, anyway.

      A CD's dynamic range is 90 dB until the disc itself fails, and most any CD player will give that to you, or very close to it (buy a good CD player, it's easy and inexpensive to do.)

      A good amp/preamp combo can beat 100 dB easily these days (actually since about the late 1970's), so that's not an issue.

      Your ear's dynamic range is about 120 dB from threshold of audibility to onset of pain.

      The dynamic range of a properly designed, good-sized, mid line (handwaves... $500-$1000/speaker) moving coil multi-driver speaker system (pretty traditional stuff) often reaches 95-100 dB (in an anechoic chamber, at one meter... not your environment, but you still get what you need with a CD.) Tip: You can get some AWESOME classic speaker systems on EBay these days for a fraction of what they're worth.

      Bottom line is that a CD player, a decent amp, moderate or better speaker systems, and you can have the whole 90 dB dynamic range of your CD. You'll need a good listening environment (quiet, mainly -- and quieter than you're imagining right now, most likely) and it's not a bad idea to have had a pro control the reflections, either, but it can certainly be done and on a reasonable budget, too -- more than reasonable if you love music, as opposed to just listen to it.

      Additional tip: The higher the noise level in your listening environment, the more you have to turn the audio up so that the lowest sound exceeds the noise level. Let's say the noise level in your room is 40 db; then the 90 dB, to be all useful, has to start at 40 and reach 130, which you will hate, your ears will bleed, and you'll probably get arrested to boot. If you can afford the monster gear to hit those SPLs, which most of us cannot. There are limits to how quiet you can get it: your heartbeat, breathing, etc. set a permanent low-limit you can't defeat, even with headphones.

      But. You get the ambient noise down, and then your 90 dB can "sit on" a lower starting point, and you can have the quietest sound, much quieter and still hear it, and the loudest sound at something under ear-bleedery. It takes some knowledge and planning, but again, it actually is 100% doable, and if you can't manage it, there are consultants who can. They live for that stuff.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    8. Re:Nah... by Pentium100 · · Score: 1

      19cm/s is good enough for me. In some cases even 9.5cm/s is good enough.

    9. Re:Nah... by jones_supa · · Score: 1

      What range DO speakers have?

      Typical home loudspeakers have sensitivities of about 90 dB for 1 W at 1 m, but as you play louder the noise floor from distortion rises and therefore masks very low level sounds.

    10. Re:Nah... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If speakers are so awful, what's the point in preferring vinyl for "audio quality" reasons?

    11. Re:Nah... by Jawnn · · Score: 0

      ...what makes Vinyl the perfect DRM is that it starts out degraded.

      Really? Compared to what? A well produced CD. Perhaps. It would surely take some serious high-end turntable components to get the best out of vinyl, but compared to the mp3 shit that (almost) everyone thinks is just fine? No. Not even close.

      No point in depriving yourself of something just because there's no adequate digital version. But barring those use cases...

      That's the thing, there's a lot of shitty CD's out there. Yeah, get off my lawn, but a lot of the music I like to listen to was just "dumped" to CD. The difference between my antique vinyl "Thick As A Brick" and my CD version is astounding. Yes, Telarc does good work. Superlative. But their catalog is small.

      And don't even get me started on the tube mythologies.

      Not a myth. I don't have a golden ear, but I am hear to tell you that my SET amp sounds far better than any solid state gear I have ever owned, by far. Yes, it has it's limitations, there's only so much you can do with 4 or 5 watts, but with the right program material, through the right speakers, the difference is nothing short of breathtaking.

    12. Re:Nah... by fyngyrz · · Score: 2

      If speakers are so awful, what's the point in preferring vinyl for "audio quality" reasons?

      First of all, speaker issues almost uniformly impact the music in quite different ways than vinyl does. So this isn't really a "thing" as you present it.

      More generally, speakers are "what we have", or at least, most of us (there are some cool things in the labs, and these days, the term "speaker" covers a lot more ground than "moving coil transducer" when you start spending uncomfortable amount of money.) So almost everyone has to put up with them, at least at this point. Not true for vinyl at all.

      The irredeemable issues that speakers do have that we run into audibly are in the harmonic distortion class of problems; the character and amount of these distortions vary enormously with about every factor that relates to speakers at all: Environment, placement angle, distance and height, frequency response, number of drivers, amp damping factor, crossover technology and frequency and order and nearness to each driver's 3 dB down point, cabinet and baffle and damping and porting and directionality and phase linearity and... well, you get the idea.

      Some speakers also don't get down into the lower end very well, or become highly directional at higher frequencies. For instance, I have a pair of JBL-L100's, completely restored, that you'd think sounded great... until I A:B them for you with my Marantz HD-880's and suddenly you realize that the JBL's were completely losing a lot of the low and high end program material.

      The end result is that our choice of speakers will sonically "color", that is, audibly alter, the music we hear. That's generally a bad thing (unless you're selling speakers and you can convince your audience that your color is better than the other guy's color or lie to them and claim you have none) but it is a constant thing and because we all have various tastes -- as amply demonstrated by the up-front differences in settings of simple things like bass and treble and loudness and volume and so forth -- we will generally prefer one set of speakers over another when they are fairly compared. Once you pick and install, that's the color you're going to get. (which, because of your installation environment, probably isn't the color you heard in the showroom.... argh... this is where consultants can make big bucks.)

      Something else many people don't realize is that with a turntable, moving-coil and moving-lever pickups have exactly the same kind of problems for many of the same reasons, and produce their own THD, and therefore audible color. Changing a pickup -- not just the stylus -- can change your whole perception of a familiar recording. All kinds of ways. Transient response, frequency response, THD, stereo separation... it can be profound. And that adds to what the speaker is going to do on the output end of all this.

      The recording techniques used on older vinyl were generally either very light-handed with, or completely lacking in, intentional compression. Some recordings -- the aforementioned Beatles recordings are a good example -- were unintentionally compressed by virtue of being recorded on tape just a bit too "hot", which causes the tape to gently waltz out of the linear recording zone and slowly begin to decrease the changes in amplitude that exceed the linear zone threshold. Basically, light compression, and entirely a good thing or the music would have been badly damaged. This lack of heavy compression can make such a huge difference in how a performance "gets into your ear" as to be perceived as almost entirely another bit of music as compared to music compressed for playback on top-40 (and many other) stations these days*. And when a recording is only available on vinyl, or only available uncompressed on vinyl, it won't be the system coloration (call it stylus+speaker distortion) that you notice, believe me. What you'll notice is it can actually sound like you are there. That is absol

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    13. Re:Nah... by Prune · · Score: 1

      >"And don't even get me started on the tube mythologies."

      What do you mean? In the end, a tube is just a gain device, like a transistor. Given a distortion spec, one can just as much build a tube amp to match it as a solid state one. There are both SS and tube audio amps that achieve distortion levels in the part-per-million level. Multiple gain stages are required in either case to get very low distortion; the real fault in most consumer tube amps is not the use of tubes, but the use of circuits that are too simple — that's the audiophile fetishist fault. Indeed, a single (constant current source loaded) vacuum triode is more linear a voltage gain device than any single transistor. If you use as many tubes as transistors, you can easily match the low distortion levels of the SS design. Tubes have specific benefits including removing thermal memory distortion (modulation of gain device parameters by the temperature changes caused by varying power dissipation). See for example this AES paper:http://www.aes.org/e-lib/brows... With transistor designs, to deal with the issue you need to add more devices to even out the power dissipation at least in the differential pair input and the VAS, and in the case of chip power amps, add compensation for the effect of the output stage thermal dissipation affecting the previous stages. Then there's the issue that transistor gain curve is exponential whereas the tube's is power-of-two, which makes the distortion profiles of a tube and an SS amp that achieve the same THD quite different, with more of the THD in the tube case caused by lower order and even harmonics — the very ones that the human auditory system masks anyway (psychoacoustics what ultimately matters, and there is interesting research and AES papers on more relevant metrics than THD/IM). Tube's problem is simply one of practicality in regards to their size and the need for filament power. Other issues can all be dealt with. For example, in terms of typical speakers, the low impedance has been traditionally solved with transformers, which introduces phase nonlinearities and some hysteresis effects, so they add distortion. But this is unnecessary. One elegant solution is the replacement of the output transformer with a switching impedance converter that operates far above the audio band; see D. Berning's patent (I think it expires soon). While the converter is an active SS state, it has no gain and no distortion in the audio band. Another solution is to directly couple tube output to electrostatic speakers, which have very high impedance. A third solution is to use hybrid circuits with both SS and tube stages. It's possible to get the best of both worlds there. Here's a great hybrid circuit that achieves a few ppm THD for 1500 kV p-p output for electrostatic headphones:http://headwize.com/?page_id=7... Note especially the hybrid third-fourth gain stage. One reason the amp gets such low distortion with only moderate NFB is that the third stage transistor's nonlinearity, in the operating range, is roughly inverse to the final tube stage's nonlinearity.

      --
      "Politicians and diapers must be changed often, and for the same reason."
    14. Re:Nah... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, for people who simply enjoy vinyl sound more, which real-time digital filter software can they try so that it sounds indistinguishable from vinyl? Not just something that algorithmically adds some obviously fake hiss or click atop an MP3, but something that has been demonstrated double-blind to be indistinguishable.

    15. Re:Nah... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For me, CDs have too much dynamic range, including TELARC CDs, of which I own a large number. That's not a problem for most rock, which is pretty limited in dynamic range to begin with, but for classical music it's a killer. If I put something on orchestral music and turn it up loud enough to make out the pianissimo passages clearly, then my wife or kids inevitably scream at me to turn it down at the next fortissimo. Vinyl actually tends to match my concert hall experience more closely.

    16. Re:Nah... by Prune · · Score: 2

      While a CD has a 90 dB range, typical players don't achieve that SNR, except maybe within a narrow subrange of the audio band, and the THD is several dB worse yet. You forget that the digital side has all the bits, but you need to convert it to analog. The DAC chip and the subsequent stages are the issue. At the digital/analog interface, signal jitter remains a problem, especially since phase noise performance of the cheap clocks used in even mid-upper range players is rather poor. There are many other issues, including poorly designed upsampling filtering before the DAC and so on. Moreover, you're forgetting that there's increasing amount of 24 bit, 96 kHz/192 kHz content, so the goal there is 120 dB, not 90. This far the only commercially available DAC chips that handle jitter issues, filtering, and the actual analog conversion sufficiently well for that target are the ESS Sabre models (ES9008 etc); the white papers are interesting. There are also some hobbyist stuff built with Sharc DSPs that can be found at the diyaudio forum.

      --
      "Politicians and diapers must be changed often, and for the same reason."
    17. Re:Nah... by kimvette · · Score: 1

      Good receivers now adapt for reflections and standing waves so there is no reason one cannot set up a good reasonably-priced component system that sounds absolutely fantastic.

      --
      The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
    18. Re:Nah... by thegarbz · · Score: 2

      Which all doesn't matter since speakers don't exactly have 120dB range either... I always wonder why such illusory specs are important to a certain set of geeks. It's like arguing about the handling of a 1960s muscle car near light speed. It barely gets to 55 MPH, so what's the point?

      Illusionary specs no longer remain illusionary when the difference is 96dB (for a CD) and 40-50dB for vinyl. For the record that's a 40000x difference in the volume of the noise floor.

      While it makes no difference for 99.9% of the crap pressed onto CDs these days which consume about the upper 6dB for a typical pop track and 12dB if you're lucky there are many forms of music where volume is used to convey a message. Many classical records have movements where the quiet part of track is obscured by a not to pleasant hiss on vinyl records.

      Now if you're arguing the merits of CD vs SACD then sure by all means call them illusionary specs, but try to understand the magnitude and its effects on music before you spout your "specs are for geeks" garbage. It's not a muscle car at light speed. It's a muscle car vs a lotus going 180km/h around a tight corner. Well worth the argument.

    19. Re:Nah... by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      Most decent gear can reach 96+ dB SPL with inaudible distortion, for frequencies above 50 Hz. For getting that first octave and a half, you'll need something bigger or a dedicated subwoofer. But in general, good mid-fi (meaning around $1000 for the set) speakers can give you 96 to 102 dB SPL with minimal distortion over nearly all the audible frequency spectrum. SOURCE: me, designing speakers professionally for the last 25 years (including for monster names in consumer and professional audio markets).

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    20. Re: Nah... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is nonsense. Just about everything can really approach or exceed 90dB these days. And yes, I tested a selection of 'players' and DACs while working on an ADC characterization project.

      And some things don't, and you can immediately tell because in my testing it has always meant something has failed, and so it distorts noticeably.

    21. Re:Nah... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Your ear's dynamic range is about 120 dB from threshold of audibility to onset of pain.

      Except not at the same time. Therefore irrelevant.

    22. Re:Nah... by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      While on paper vinyl seems inferior to CD, in practice the vinyl release is often mixed better than the CD release due to the medium's limitations.

      CDs can be very loud. The producers tend to ramp the loudness right up (google "loudness war"). Vinyl can't cope with music that loud, it just can't reproduce that kind of over-driven, clipped waveform. Hence the vinyl mix tends to be less loud, with more dynamic range and separation of the instruments than the CD release.

      A decade later popular records often get a "re-mastered" released. Sometimes this release is even louder, sometimes it's properly mixed like the original vinyl was. I tend to buy the CD and then download a digitised copy of the vinyl version for actual listening, to save me the hassle of ripping it myself.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    23. Re: Nah... by Prune · · Score: 1

      They exceed it in a limited frequency range, as I pointed out. I'm pretty sure you measured at say 1 kHz and "done deal", instead of sampling the full 20-20k range and noting how especially at the higher end SNR degrades. You also completely ignored my point that 90 dB is not the right target, as the ear does 120.

      --
      "Politicians and diapers must be changed often, and for the same reason."
    24. Re:Nah... by Shirley+Marquez · · Score: 1

      If you want to hear something even better than CD, try some high resolution downloads. You will need a sound card that can handle 24 bit samples and preferably at least 96KHz sample rate to take full advantage, but even many integrated sound interfaces can do that now. http://www.hdtracks.com/ is a good place to start.

      You have two more days to get the free high resolution holiday sampler from Linn: http://www.linn.co.uk/christma... Get it even if you're allergic to holiday music; most of the songs in the sampler have nothing to do with any December holiday.

    25. Re:Nah... by Shirley+Marquez · · Score: 1

      At one time there was something to the superiority of tubes. Early solid state designs really did sound terrible, because of things like crossover distortion (that has nothing to do with the crossover in your speakers, it has to do with bad things that happen when signals cross the zero point in an amplifier) that those designers did not understand. Transistor amplifiers (even now) also sound worse than tubes if they are pushed past their limits; solid state designs in that situation distort in ways that are uglier to our ears than tubes do.

      But... there isn't much excuse for pushing a solid state amplifier past its limits. Getting a given amount of power output with transistors is much easier than it is with tubes, so there is no reason not to design your sound system with ample reserve capacity.

      There is one market where the desire for tube amplifiers makes sense - electric guitar amps. The characteristic distortions of tubes are a part of what we recognize as the distinctive sound of the instrument. When people are trying to fill an arena with guitar sounds, it's not uncommon to feed the guitar into a tube amp, put a microphone in front of that amp, and then feed that signal into the big sound system that fills the arena - a quality condenser mic and solid state amplifiers faithfully reproduce the distortions that the small tube amplifier contributed to the guitar sound.

      Slight digression: blues harp (harmonica) is nearly always amplified with one of two vintage models of microphone: the Shure 520 "Green Bullet" or the Astatic JT-30. (A version of the Shure is still being made, though some harp players prefer the earlier versions.) The microphone feeds into a tube amplifier that is usually being pushed hard; for large spaces that amp would then be mic'ed and reamplified just like the electric guitar. Both the sound of the microphone (which is far from neutral) and the amp are part of the sound that we associate with blues harp.

      Similarly, digital recording pushed past its limits and into digital clipping sounds horrible. But again there is no reason to let that happen; 24 bit recording has lots of dynamic range so you don't have to push the top limit. (No commercially available DAC achieves the theoretical limit of 144dB, but more than 120dB is available.) It's easy to normalize the recording when you master it for CD so you take advantage of all 16 bits of that medium.

    26. Re:Nah... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Any medium has limitations on the absolute loudness. The loudness war is basically pushing music to or past that limitation. It can theoretically be done with vinyls or with CDs (or SACDs, or flac files, or mp3s, or cassettes, or laser discs, or Neil Young's gimmicky music player files, or ....). If anything, vinyls are much worse than CD audio for technical quality. The reason vinyl releases typically don't fall into the loudness war is just because vinyl releases aren't being mastered for radio play, they're being mastered for audiophiles. Some people then attribute this to some shortcoming of digital music, which is incorrect.

      Although, because of this, in practice, vinyl releases may sometimes have better dynamic range than the same CD release.

    27. Re:Nah... by samwichse · · Score: 1

      I kind of feel like this whole movement towards vinyl is because of CD overcompression... like people go running to it because it sounds better, but only because the producers want to give it "that vinyl sound" by maintaining the dB range for the pressing. Sort of a weird feedback loop touting quality in an outdated, lower-quality format.

      Sam

    28. Re:Nah... by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      It's not that producers want to give it that vinyl sound, it's that they have no choice. If you take a CD master and just press it into the vinyl you'll run into all manner of problems such as running out of space or the needle hopping out of the track.

      I saw an interview a while back I think it was with Alan Parsons who said that no sound engineer in the industry wants to ruin CDs the way they are doing and that several of them see vinyl as a way that they can truly display their skills as the studio idiots who insist it should sound loud only care about the CD and the single. Even the guitar hero versions of Metallica songs sound better than the Metallica CDs. Without oversight people end up doing a proper job.

  33. next: 8-track tape by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yeeeehawwwww - can't wait for 8 track to come back!!!!

  34. Damn it by 50000BTU_barbecue · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Years ago I was very close to buying a whole lathe setup with spare cutters and everything, it was an auction and the price was 1$... but you had to pay for getting the thing out of the warehouse that very day or they'd penalize you big time.

    Sometimes I regret not being more proactive about the whole thing. I enjoy electromechanical contraptions like that and would have liked to make masters and one-offs for people.

    But the thing was enormous and it would not have worked well in a 3rd floor apartment in any case. It would be happier in the basement of a warehouse.

    http://gallery.audioasylum.com...

    plus two 19 inch racks full of all kinds of junk...

    --
    Mostly random stuff.
    1. Re:Damn it by u38cg · · Score: 1

      Yeah, similar experience about ten years ago, a guy locally was offloading his lathe and was willing to help install and train the purchaser and all his stock. Wife veto'd it. Every now and then I remind her what it would be worth now.

      --
      [FUCK BETA]
  35. What? began in 1993? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Vinyl was already on the way into the graveyard by 1993. I used to buy used vinyl albums dirt cheap - couldn't afford new cassettes and CDs - because no one wanted them. Used music stores were shoveling vinyl into your arms for almost nothing then. I played them once and made a cassette.

    What is the % increase/decrease since, say, 1970?

    1. Re:What? began in 1993? by jones_supa · · Score: 1

      I found a chart from the Wikipedia Vinyl revival article. Interestingly, it seems that the demand is skyrocketing.

  36. It's the artwork by jetkust · · Score: 1

    If I had to guess, the main reason Vinyl is popular is because of the enlarged artwork and people wanting to own some memorabilia from an artist they like. I wouldn't be surprised if the people who own these records never play them.

    1. Re:It's the artwork by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can be assured that people who own records play them. As well as their mp3's or streams. People are entirely capable of enjoying music on more than one format, each of which has it's merits.

      But yes, you're right. You are guessing. The sound and experience are bigger reasons vinyl is popular.

    2. Re:It's the artwork by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "each of which has it's merits."

      It's and its each have their merits. Can you guess which is which?

  37. Re:It sounds so WARM! by Osgeld · · Score: 2

    and noise

  38. DJs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You missed a group. DJs. CDJs are fine but you can't lower your eye and see where the beat drops like you can with vinyl. Don't believe me? Grab a record with a track that has a meaningful shift - in volume, pace, a silent or spoken break, even instrumentation - and LOOK at it, from the lead-in to lead-out sections, and you can SEE where it changes, as the texture of the band shifts at that point too.

    I have a fond memory of gifting a record to a DJ friend, who threw it on the turntable, lowered his eye, and said "ah, the beat should drop about here", popped the needle onto that groove, and... yup.

    DJs have culture-followers, who glom onto what they like, and as well it's a prestige position so there's a lot of amateurs wanting to try,

    You also can't put a sticker on a CD like you can on vinyl, to mark the exact location of the sample or break you want.

    FYI.

  39. Golly... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Think it might be because you can transfer vinyl to any other media without paying vast sums of money or inviting the copyright stormtroopers to confiscate your computer? Maybe?

  40. Damnit, I knew this would happen. ok... by fyngyrz · · Score: 5, Informative

    However, listening to older music (like the Beatles) is much more enjoyable on the tube devices, the sound is "different".

    It shouldn't be. Not unless either your tube amp, or your transistor amp, in a word, sucks, anyway.

    Tube amps and transistor amps differ from each other in sound reproduction not at all in the linear zone used to reproduce music. A tube amp may have a slightly higher noise floor (and then again, it may not... but really low noise tube amps will cost ya.)

    Where tube and transistor amps differ significantly (meaning, to your ear) are in what happens when you drive them so hard that they can no longer linearly reproduce the signal you're feeding them. A naive transistor amp will hard clip, generating a most unpleasant bunch of harmonics, along with a distorted version of the original signal. A tube amp (given an adequate power supply) will clip softly (by comparison), rounding off the signal instead of cutting the tops into flatlines or droopy reverse trapezoids, and this is much easier on the ear.

    Now here is the thing: Anyone who likes music, much less loves it, would never, and I seriously mean never, not just "mostly wouldn't", manage music reproduction in such a way as to have our tube or transistor amplifiers distort. Because the second we do so, differences notwithstanding, the music would have to sound better to reach up through the resulting dreck to the standard of "sounding like shit."

    So tube/transistor, difference meme, WTF? This WTF: For a musician, playing a single instrument, and usually that means an instrument producing a relatively simple waveform, the tube distortion *does* add interest (think electric blues guitar for the classic example), and so for the musician, the tube amp is a tool which does indeed get used in its distorted regimes.

    But when that sound gets to YOU, the very last thing you would EVER want to do is add MORE distortion to it. You'll have some, because no sound production system is distortion free (the speakers are the worst culprit, followed by the stylus if you use vinyl) but man, you want that to be as near not-a-damn-bit-more as you can manage. Otherwise, your ear will shit in your auditory cortex and crown it with audio battery acid. Hate and discontent everywhere in your mind.

    So, no. 1000 times no. Tube amps sound like transistor amps in hifi setups unless someone has completely screwed up your installation, or your ears.

    Having gone that far, some caveats: That noise floor thing I mentioned, that's one. Lousy tube amps often hiss like angry snakes. If so, get rid of that POS (or at least try new tubes, and/or have someone replace the capacitors and old carbon resistors in your "classic" pride and joy.) Next, damping factor: For bass, a transistor amp may do a lot better, depending on your speaker systems. This is because transformer coupled outputs from a tube amp (these are typical) can't control the inductive kickback from a moving coil speaker as precisely and decisively as a direct coupled transistor amp can. However, from the tube days, there are speaker systems that were designed with this in mind, and which are extremely well behaved re inductive kickback, and so the end result is similar. This is a multi-variable issue (amp+speaker), and one that takes some knowledge to waltz around satisfactorily. So there's that. Finally, tubes are more likely to be microphonic; in a really high power system, that can cause feedback, which is intolerable; but the (good?) news is, there are very few hifi tube systems with that kind of whip-ass.

    You like tube amps, I have no argument with you. I like them too, and I own some great ones. Plus, they glow in the dark, which appeals to my batlike nature. :) But when you say they sound different or better, just, no. Not unless something's been done very wrong, or something is broken.

    If you want primo sound reproduction, the place to put your do

    --
    I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    1. Re:Damnit, I knew this would happen. ok... by Pentium100 · · Score: 1

      The old tube tape recorder I mentioned is a low quality device, probably even for its time. And yes, the Beatles and similar (essentially, the music that was produced and originally released as mono) sound better for me with the added distortion and limited frequency range. Maybe because it was mastered with a device like mine in mind (since it is similar to what people would have used to play their brand new records and tapes) maybe it's because I like the "different" sound for some music.

      On the other hand, the tube heaphone amp I built sound more like a transistor amp and does not have that much distortion or limited frequency range.

    2. Re:Damnit, I knew this would happen. ok... by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      Yeah, can't help you there. Was just trying to head off the audiophile tube argument at the pass.

      What you're dealing with, I think, would be fairly characterized as things sounding like you're accustomed to hearing them sound, which pleases you, and there isn't squat I can say about that unless your actual preferences change. I can't do much about that remotely, much as I would like to try.

      I will tell you this, though: Early Beatles recordings, suitably remastered, played back on my system, sometimes leave me in tears. Some of which is from the sheer pleasure of it, some of which is frustration that we've gone so far down the compress-it rabbit hole, and some of which is purest, reeking nostalgia, I have to admit.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    3. Re:Damnit, I knew this would happen. ok... by Prune · · Score: 1

      The human ear has a 120 dB dynamic range. While we're not all listening in anechoic chambers, studies show narrowband signals are detectable as much as 20 dB below a broadband noise floor. Now, very few amps achieve distortion and SNR that can cover this range (indeed, I'm not aware of any commercial ones — only a DAC that exceeds that range, and a few circuits prototyped by a few crazed members at the diyaudio forum). This means that the suggestion that solid state and tube amps that are properly designed sound the same is incorrect. There is no "linear range"; only an approximately linear one, which is still not completely linear with respect to psychoacoustics. I think what you meant to say is that well designed solid state and tube amps sound practically the same to most people in typical listening conditions. Please see my comment here as well: http://entertainment.slashdot....

      --
      "Politicians and diapers must be changed often, and for the same reason."
    4. Re:Damnit, I knew this would happen. ok... by Prune · · Score: 1

      I would hazard a guess that his headphone tube amp is output-transformerless. The truth is that what most people think of tube sound is really output transformer sound (the exception being the soft clipping, of course).

      --
      "Politicians and diapers must be changed often, and for the same reason."
    5. Re:Damnit, I knew this would happen. ok... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry, but this is partly misinformation.

      It is hard to make amplifiers linear. It's even harder to make transistor amps (without some feedback or PWM step) linear. It's even harder, if not impossible to make tube amps linear.

      Of course, tubes are used for overdrive effects. Same as that diodes can be used for overdrive effects. But that not means that a tube amplifier is linear in it's optimal range. Far from, even.

      Having said that - you are right about transistor amps late 70's - they are already having very good specs with often less than 0.5% harmonic noise and 0.2% dis-harmonic noise.

      But for anything better new types of amplifiers were made - using FET transistors or using opamps (self-correcting feedback) or using '1-bit' technology (pulse-width modulation marketed with a consumer-friendly name).

      Almost any tube amplifier will have this 'tube-sound', even when used in its linear range, simply because `linear` exist for tubes only as 'close to linear'.

    6. Re:Damnit, I knew this would happen. ok... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tube amps sound like transistor amps in hifi setups

      That's plain wrong. You think your amplifiers are perfectly linear at normal volumes so harmonic distortion is always inaudible? Balls!

      Great tube amps sound great. Great solid state amps also sound great. But they usually sound discernibly different. The closest to a "warm" tube sound in solid state are good MOSFET amplifiers.

    7. Re:Damnit, I knew this would happen. ok... by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      Your investment in mythology in way alters the facts. Sorry to have to break it to you.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    8. Re:Damnit, I knew this would happen. ok... by dryeo · · Score: 1

      As I remember, some of my best sounding records (on a low to mid level system) were later Apple pressings, especially John Lennons Imagine and Mother albums. Even picking them up showed the quality, they were thick and seemed to have more dynamic range then most recordings.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    9. Re:Damnit, I knew this would happen. ok... by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      It is hard to make amplifiers linear.

      Nothing is perfectly linear in this regime. However, and as should have been obvious, the question, and the answer, resides in the realm of "linear enough." What I said is exactly correct as far as it applies to humans listening to audio. And that's all I meant to address. Within that scope, my presentation was not only accurate, it was conservative.

      I will now leave you to argue the merits of your case as you understand them; however, I won't be picking up the argument. I am only interested in the facts, and I have already presented those, so I'm done. Cheers!

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    10. Re:Damnit, I knew this would happen. ok... by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      While we're not all listening in anechoic chambers, studies show narrowband signals are detectable as much as 20 dB below a broadband noise floor

      Detectability is not an adequate metric for musical reproduction, narrow-band or otherwise. For that, we must operate above the noise floor.

      [amps not reaching the ear's dynamic range] means that the suggestion that solid state and tube amps that are properly designed sound the same is incorrect.

      No, it doesn't mean anything of the kind. All it means is that our ear has more dynamic range. It doesn't mean it has more resolution within any range segment (and in fact, it doesn't -- we kind of suck at absolute amplitude discrimination.) Anyway, regardless of our ear's dynamic range, all we will hear is the dynamic range the audio system presents. And the most that will be with a CD is about 90 dB.

      There is no "linear range"; only an approximately linear one, which is still not completely linear with respect to psychoacoustics.

      It's linear in human terms. It's not linear in absolute terms. Other than that, no -- given the same tone contours, filter orders and Q, or the lack of any, as long as the amps are running in the range they were designed to, and the input and output devices are identical, and match the amplifier's output impedances, the audio will sound the same within the limits of the caveats I already provided, primarily damping factor.

      As the subject line hopefully intimated, I consider this horse beaten to death and condemned as unfit for consumption before I even posted. Therefore, the last word is something you are most welcome to. :)

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    11. Re:Damnit, I knew this would happen. ok... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And your investment into Space Nutter mythology in no way changes the fact that no one is going anywhere. Sorry to have to break it to you.

    12. Re:Damnit, I knew this would happen. ok... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      don't feed the geek. This is the typical "expert" who confuses specs on paper with the human experience. To the likes of these souless idiots, better numberrs always translate into "it must better", similar to the high definition morons who want us to think that the soap opera look is better than film. Ignore them and do what FEELS best

    13. Re:Damnit, I knew this would happen. ok... by Prune · · Score: 1

      Let's be more specific about the notion of "sound the same". I don't know what it means to you, but I take it literally: that it is impossible to distinguish for any human in a set of blind tests, let's say ITU-standard ABC/hidden reference form, between these amplifiers or whatever other DUT we have (let us suppose that we can agree on a reasonable sample size of trained listeners, and a reasonably long time limit — I would push for several hours, split over a few experiments.) The 120 dB provides an upper bound to the noise and distortion, a guarantee that any reproduction equipment that meets that distortion spec will cause no possibly detectable change in the sound. I don't suggest that my bound is tight. However, you have failed to present an argument for a significantly tighter bound. You might argue against my basing of my argument on listening in ideal conditions, but such can be approached to varying degree in practice, and so I'm discussing the limiting cases, not the typical ones.

      --
      "Politicians and diapers must be changed often, and for the same reason."
  41. What a comeback by GrumpySteen · · Score: 2, Informative

    Vinyl sales for the entire year totaled nearly 3.5% of 257 million albums sold in 2014! The other 96.5% of sales pale in comparison!

    And we're not going to mention the 1.1 billion individual track digital sales! Because that would make vinyl look bad!

  42. Why not put a new twist on old tech? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If people really like the only vinyl, why not improve upon it?

    To be more specific, I have two specific ideas about this, and this come from my personal interest in another dead format - Laserdisc.

    First, back in the day Pioneer actually made a Laserdisc player that could play vinyl records with the laser, causing no wear. It was designed for radio stations and cost something north of $10k (and this was in the 80's and 90's). So, I am thinking this might be much cheaper and easier to do with today tech, and certainly would be interesting.

    Second, video for Laserdiscs was analog - yes the thing looked like a giant CD, but it was all analog aside from some optional digital audio tracks. So, what if today you recorded analog audio using a laser on a 12" disk? I think that would be really interesting, and might be able to challenge some of issues with both the frailty of vinyl records and the pitfalls of digital processing and compression. Hell, use a blue laser and get many, many hours of recording or use a smaller disk. Imagine how much data - digital or analog, a disc that size could hold.

    -RoS

    1. Re:Why not put a new twist on old tech? by Accordion+Noir · · Score: 1

      I remember talk about the laser record players. They found it much harder to achieve (warped records, etc) than they expected.

      And I believe there were two video disk technologies. Laserdisks, which were like giant CD's with digital video on, and Video Disks, which were about the same 12" size, but came in a hard shell-case sort of like old floppy disk, and they were in fact an analog video medium in a grooved disk. You put the case in the machine and then removed it, leaving the disk inside (you never saw the actual disk). That technology still blows me away.

      The two disk formats went at it for a while in the 80s, and then failed, with VHS tapes winning most of the American market until DVD's came along.

      --
      "Ruthlessly pursuing the idea that the accordion is just another instrument."
  43. Stop Vinyl Record Pollution! by Tetetrasaurus · · Score: 1

    "What these naive enviro-conscious hipsters don't realize is that every time a record is "cut" the small bits of plastic that result are released as nanoscopic pollutants that clog the tubules of bivalves living in a pond near a small community north of Maine."

    The above is the dream of most every old prick on slashdot to be able to say. Get off my lawn!

  44. 3 sided records by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As I recall Monty Python did a record with three sides -- one side had two grooves spiralling in parallel. That's what vinyl is good for.

    How many vinyl buyers get the mp3 download along with the vinyl and hardly ever actually play the record? It's really just a deluxe option.

  45. They're nuts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The people who think vinyl is better are nuts, or maybe Amish. I suppose they'd rather go back to horses and buggies or living in caves.

    1. Re:They're nuts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, those are the only two options. It's not like vinyl was the dominant medium during the Moon landings, and as we all know, everyone was still living in caves at that time.

  46. Ubbelievable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    With the recent news of the entertainment industry lying about numbers ($80 million settlement .. was a lie), how'm I to believe this rhetoric?

    Remember, 106% of all statistics are a lie.
    you expect me to believe that sales have been going up? What would people even be doing with all this vinyl if they don't even have a record player? That makes about a much sense as a recent quote by Abraham Lincoln.

  47. Range Improvement by fyngyrz · · Score: 1
    --
    I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    1. Re:Range Improvement by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just don't buy them from Acme, in which case they launch straight up then fall on your head.

  48. Modern signaling techniques applied to vinyl? by Theovon · · Score: 1

    This makes me think of the technological progress of communications between computers. (Note: This is not a totally accurate depiction of history.) First, we had serial communication, like RS232. When that wasn't fast enough, we went parallel, like Centronics. That reached a certain speed limit due to signal skew between the parallel wires. But by then, on-chip transistors were so fast that we could modulate differential serial in a way that beats the heck out of parallel. (Notice that modern highspeed interconnects, like USB3 and PCI-Express, are all differential serial, where any parallelism has decoupled phasing.)

    So imagine we computed the transfer function of the "typical" record player, accounting for all the distortions in the needle, amplifier, and speaker. Then we took the waveform we WANT to get and reverse engineer exactly the groove we need on the record to get the exact sounds we want. It might take a decent amount of compute power to do it, but we could do a far better job than we ever could back in the 1970's.

  49. It's not about the DRM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    People going for vinyls is not really about DRM. The thing is that people actually like the vinyls, because the mixing and mastering is better. Almost always you have a better dynamic range in vinyls. I really wish they would stop over-compressing everything.

    It's sad that to actually get high quality audio you really have to search for it. We have the tech and the methods to produce high quality stuff, but everything is streamed in low quality or botched at mixing/mastering.

    And no. We don't need 24bit/96khz to enjoy music. We need the dynamic range back.

  50. Most people don't understand CD sampling by Trax3001BBS · · Score: 1

    I've always been a vinyl fan.

    I could never get across to people I'd talk to about true reproduction and 8x sampling a second. Being you only get 8 points of "sound" per second. Not a reproduction as one was missing the other 92 points. Much like a JPG where hell you'll never miss it, but by the 5th to 10th save...

    1. Re:Most people don't understand CD sampling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was going to reply to your post a few days ago, but I couldn't figure out what the hell you were talking about.

      Now I come back freshly rested, and I still can't figure out what the hell you're talking about. "8 points of sound per second?"

      What the hell are you talking about??

    2. Re:Most people don't understand CD sampling by Trax3001BBS · · Score: 1

      I was going to reply to your post a few days ago, but I couldn't figure out what the hell you were talking about.

      Now I come back freshly rested, and I still can't figure out what the hell you're talking about. "8 points of sound per second?"

      What the hell are you talking about??

      See what I meant, very few know about sampling.

      An album is produced, to put it on a CD 8 samples or selections of that album's sound/music is selected for the CD per second.
      That was when they first came out I think the sampling is a bit higher now.

      At 8 samples per second, your only getting 8 selections, think of it as being like a graph, instead of a continuous wave which vinyl would produce.

    3. Re:Most people don't understand CD sampling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > See what I meant, very few know about sampling.

      You are either a troll, or you have no clue how sampling works. 8x per second, what the hell? Audio is sampled thousands of times per second.

    4. Re:Most people don't understand CD sampling by Trax3001BBS · · Score: 1

      > See what I meant, very few know about sampling.

      You are either a troll, or you have no clue how sampling works. 8x per second, what the hell? Audio is sampled thousands of times per second.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S... as I mentioned sampling has pry been increased since the 8x sampling.

    5. Re:Most people don't understand CD sampling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You would do well to read the article you linked. Nobody samples audio at 8Hz-- you couldn't reproduce anything over 4Hz at that rate.

    6. Re:Most people don't understand CD sampling by Trax3001BBS · · Score: 1

      You would do well to read the article you linked. Nobody samples audio at 8Hz-- you couldn't reproduce anything over 4Hz at that rate.

      I had read it, 20 samples would be for phones it was for the graph alone. I've always pirated my stuff and never had a problem, it was when everybody started downloading music it became one - I don't download music. 20 was the example I used when CD's first came out and it's what I've run with.

    7. Re:Most people don't understand CD sampling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The graph doesn't show a specific time for (t), I don't know why you would conclude it's a full second.

      Read the table under "Audio Sampling > Sampling Rate," you can see telephone is 8000Hz (samples per second), not 8Hz. For CDs it's 44,100 samples per second.

      "Not a reproduction as one was missing the other 92 points" Other 92 points? There's no set limit of 100 anywhere, you can sample as fast or slow as you like. Once per second or a million times per second, and nothing will be missing as long a you meet the Nyquist limit for your signal spectrum.

      It's not enough to read about it, you have to read and understand!

    8. Re:Most people don't understand CD sampling by Trax3001BBS · · Score: 1

      The graph doesn't show a specific time for (t), I don't know why you would conclude it's a full second.

      Read the table under "Audio Sampling > Sampling Rate," you can see telephone is 8000Hz (samples per second), not 8Hz. For CDs it's 44,100 samples per second.

      "Not a reproduction as one was missing the other 92 points" Other 92 points? There's no set limit of 100 anywhere, you can sample as fast or slow as you like. Once per second or a million times per second, and nothing will be missing as long a you meet the Nyquist limit for your signal spectrum.

      It's not enough to read about it, you have to read and understand!

      I did read it and saw the increased sampling rate, not to of posted it wouldn't of been right. What I was getting at was if you connect the sampling "points" you will come up with a graph.

      I understood sampling when CD's first came out and defended vinyl by CD's very nature.

      I honestly don't download much music, I found MTV right after it came on the air, it was always on 24/7; now preferring youtube videos of music I like much more (even at low resolutions).

        I do have a mess of them (songs) on a hard drive I purchased at Good Will, whoever put it together grabbed about any artist you can think, of sadly lots of cRAP. I was just after the hard drive the songs/music was a hell of a bonus.

      So not able to get into a discussion of recording of the music as time has progressed, just the fact it's sampled and not a true wave form.

    9. Re:Most people don't understand CD sampling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > So not able to get into a discussion of recording of the music as time has progressed, just the fact it's sampled and not a true wave form.

      YES, it IS a "true wave form." The standard link people post now on this topic is Monty Montgomery's (xiph) video "Digital Show and Tell." Watch and learn...digital audio fully captures the original signal with better fidelity than any vinyl: http://xiph.org/video/vid2.shtml

  51. Re:It sounds so WARM! by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

    Build a man a fire, you'll keep him warm for a day.

    Set a man on fire, and you'll keep him warm for the rest of his life.

    --
    Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
  52. Physical objects reinforce the experience by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's easier to be sentimental about the songs when there's a record spinning and an album cover reinforcing the experience.

  53. Vinyl sucks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The only good thing about all is the square foot of artwork in the album covers. Vinyl degrades the sound in every way and further degrades in each playing. People who prefer vinyl to CD are as stupid as the Flat Earth Society.

  54. The fun of vinyl. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I read lots and lots of people joking/whining over the (somewhat) worse sound quality of vinyl compared to digital.

    Though they are theoretically right (but not always in practice, google "loudness war" , digital clipping makes digital always sound worse than vinyl), they miss the point.

    Playing records is just a lot more fun to do. Because you have to turn/switch the record every 20/30 minutes you really keep your mind on the music. The slow browsing through a crate of records in itself has a completely different feel than browsing/searching through a list on a screen.

    With children present it has the added fun factor that the way the music is stored on the record is easy to understand. You can even *see* it with a loupe. You can hear the sound coming from the needle.

    So while my everyday music use comes from my computer, when there's a party I get out the record player and boxes of records. Both ways of listening to music have their place.

    People joking: "why don't you go back to wax rolls" miss the point. I own a modern record player and an old windup 78 rpm player (no electrical components at all, the amplification is just a horn) and using them both on a party is immensely fun to do. If I would have a wax rolls player I would probably play them as well, just for the fun of it.

    In a way listening to records at a party is more like watching youtube movies than like setting up a playlist and forgetting about it.

    So while vinyl is mot per se the best long term storage format (though the simplistic storage medium makes it a lot easier to play back after a zombie apocalypse. I once created a 78s record player from Lego and a sowing pin and a cardboard horn)
    it has it's advantages on parties.

    One last nitpick about sound quality. Most of the people joking about the sound quality of LPs play there music through tiny computer speakers (or tweeters+woofers without mid-tones) and on these systems it's impossible to hear the difference between the frequency response of a CD and a record.

    All in all a record player is like an open fireplace: central heating is better in all ways except for the fun factor.

  55. Vinyl delusions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    VINYL
    1. Superior sound quality
    2. Collectable
    3. Exists in the corporeal realm
    4. Can be sold
    5. Gets bitches
    6. Pleasant psychological effect of owning physical things
    7. Reproduces the actual intended wave rather than an interpretation of it
    8. Better dynamic range
    9. Wider frequency response
    10. Perfectly reproduces sine waves that digital can't capture
    11. Warmth
    12. Isn't sterile and doesn't smell of disinfectant like digital does
    13. Did I mention superior sound quality?
    14. Infinite sound resolution
    15. Digital = Literally Hitler
    16. It's literally the only way to make music if you're serious about music and not just a poseur
    17. Enjoy listening to digital software synths on your $1 store headphones (or maybe your $20 skullcandies if you're *really* extravagant) and your phone
    18. Objectively superior sound quality

  56. Hissssss! by civiltongue · · Score: 2

    I was so glad to throw away my turntable. It was a high-end model, with a highly-rated cartridge/stylus. Even so, and even after I used the recommended dust remover on every disk several times, I had annoying clicks and hiss within a week after a new album purchase. Good riddance.

  57. Making sense of music consumption by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The popularity of 192kbps mp3s over 320Kbps ones, choosing to use VHS over Betamax, the length of time it took people to stop using DVDs over Blu-Ray. There are so many mixed factors as to why certain media formats are used over others and why the best isn't always the chosen format, some are effectively nonsensical and we have to accept this. Then of course you have genres like noise rock, speecore, splittercore, anything lo-fi etc. that go against the 'sensible' progression of music. Long ago I stopped trying to make sense of music consumption (be it format or genre) because the truth is that not everybody wants the best sounding music, they just want the most enjoyable experience from their music. If that means playing a [comparatively] unjustifiably expensive and inconvenient format over a much cheaper and more flexible one then so be it.

    From the creation of genres to the formation of bands and beyond, the entire evolution of music has never followed a linear progression toward better produced or more complex sounding music. The only way we can truly make sense of trends like these is to stop pointing the finger at supposed consumer stupidity and to start observing changes in consumer culture and subculture; what might seem stupid from the strictly technological perspective of 'Every music consumption format has to be objectively better than its preceding technology' will make perfect sense to the consumer who is not interested in the *best* way of listening to music, but the one that gives them the most enjoyment and makes them feel closest to the music they love so much.

  58. this is just like the iSheep by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is anyone really surprised here? A technically inferior product has become so cool that people are willing to pay a premium price for it. Apple has been making money hand over fist in the cellphone market for years with this strategy. Of course I'm going to get a bunch of people replying with that tired old saw that vinyl has a certain "soul" or "character" to its sound. They are like the people say they like the iPhone because it "just works" but are really too embarrassed to admit they've paid a premium price for the "cutting edge" of yesteryear. Face it, the hiss and crackle and lower fidelity of vinyl was surpassed two decades ago with CDs and the quality just keeps improving with the digital formats of today.

  59. this is just like the iSheep by mdmenzel · · Score: 1

    Is anyone really surprised here? A technically inferior product has become so cool that people are willing to pay a premium price for it. Apple has been making money hand over fist in the cellphone market for years with this strategy. Of course I'm going to get a bunch of people replying with that tired old saw that vinyl has a certain "soul" or "character" to its sound. They are like the people say they like the iPhone because it "just works" but are really too embarrassed to admit they've paid a premium price for the "cutting edge" of yesteryear. Face it, the hiss and crackle and lower fidelity of vinyl was surpassed two decades ago with CDs and the quality just keeps improving with the digital formats of today.

  60. Actually... by whopub · · Score: 0

    Go figure. Hipster trends hit mainstream, give it 2-3 years and vinyl will fall by the wayside as people pickup Zune's and say "THIS IS HOW IT WAS MEANT TO BE!"

    Actually this

    https://ponomusic.force.com/

    may be how it's meant to be...

  61. Just a thought by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Are all these articles really about vinyl sales (are vinyl sales really increasing) or is this just a music industry publicist campaign to get us to buy albums because everyone else is.

  62. World of gluttony by Kuruk · · Score: 1

    Stupid people will buy anything if they have money to burn.

    This is not the next big thing. Its morons with money.

    Bring back film and we can start buying that as well. Lots of tinned film and vinyl degrading as we value it more and more.

  63. urban outfitters by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    walk into an urban outfitters store, records everywhere. no doubt they are a HUGE part of sales and this trend.