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UK Computing Teachers Concerned That Pupils Know More Than Them

mikejuk (1801200) writes A survey of UK schools carried out by Microsoft and Computing at School reveals some worrying statistics that are probably more widely applicable. The survey revealed that (68%) of primary and secondary teachers are concerned that their pupils have a better understanding of computing than they do. Moreover, the pupils reinforced this finding with 47% claiming that their teachers need more training. Again to push the point home, 41% of pupils admitted to regularly helping their teachers with technology. This isn't all due to the teachers being new at the task — 76% had taught computing before the new curriculum was introduced. It seems that switching from an approach that emphasised computer literacy to one that actually wants students to do more difficult things is the reason for the problem.

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  1. Any experienced teacher already deals with this by xxxJonBoyxxx · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm pretty sure I knew math, science and sometimes English better than my teachers through high school. Experienced teachers know how to deal with students like us - how would this be any different?

    1. Re:Any experienced teacher already deals with this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'm pretty sure I knew math, science and sometimes English better than my teachers through high school. Experienced teachers know how to deal with students like us - how would this be any different?

      The real difference is you thought you knew math, science and sometimes English, but when it really came down to it, masters-level mathematics could be whipped out to gently remind you, or perhaps break down some English sentence structure to show your actual understanding vs. what you think you know.

      Experienced teachers know the difference between knowledge and wisdom. The difference today is you don't have students going home spending another 4 - 6 hours every day tinkering with math or English like you might with computing.

    2. Re:Any experienced teacher already deals with this by plover · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This is no different. Back in the 1970s, our high school physics teacher had the computer terminal in his area, and so he taught the computer class. He wouldn't allow me to take it because, as he said, "you already know more than I do about this."

      The important thing is it wasn't an admission of failure on his part. He knew the class was beneath me, and simply didn't want me to waste my time.

      --
      John
    3. Re:Any experienced teacher already deals with this by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 4, Insightful

      In related news... Kids often know how to use something, but not how those things actually work. The two are not the same thing, even though they may think it is. TFS doesn't make a clear distinction as to which kind of literacy is at issue.

      Why, those teachers may still think email is relevant. To a 15 year old, email might as well be the telegraph.

      I doubt a 15 year old knows how either of those actually work, in addition to being clueless about whatever cool new thing they're using. The Curiosity Foo seems weak in this current generation.

      --
      It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    4. Re:Any experienced teacher already deals with this by kilfarsnar · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Quite to the contrary. Our teaching schools in the US are the degree mills for the B school dropouts. Simply put, those who can do math realize that teaching is a bad financial career choice.

      This is another indication of how far out of whack our priorities are as a country. You make money based on how much money you make for someone else, or how hard your position is to fill. But we won't spend money just because something is important; like teachers or quality infrastructure or mitigating climate change or whatever.

      The linked article talks about how hard it is to get good teachers for computing because anyone who's any good at it can make a lot more money elsewhere. Is anyone proposing paying a computing teacher $90,000 a year, or whatever is competitive, to compensate for that? Everyone seems to want to pay teachers less because they get summers off. Nobody wants to pay them more because for the vital function they serve in our society. Like I said, priorities out of whack.

      --
      "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
    5. Re:Any experienced teacher already deals with this by tepples · · Score: 1, Insightful

      in about the same time frame where English classes should be less about grammar and more about comprehension of literary works

      Why should English classes be more about works of fiction and theatre by dead white European males and less about communicating your own ideas to other people?

    6. Re:Any experienced teacher already deals with this by mrchaotica · · Score: 1, Insightful

      "Obviously, if it were important then somebody would be willing to spend money on it!" -- Republicans

      ("'Tragedy of the Commons?' What's that?" -- also Republicans)

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    7. Re:Any experienced teacher already deals with this by digsbo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Teachers are preventing us from paying computer science teachers competitively, because the union insists in collective bargaining. Sorry, a fifth grade teacher should not get paid as much as a high school CS teacher. Nor do we have to offer them as much pay - there are too many elementary ed graduates for the number of available positions.

  2. It's been going on for years by DougOtto · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Even back in the 80s, I had a teacher fail me on a programming assignment because I was using things she hadn't taught yet. This isn't a 'new' problem. It's difficult for teachers to stay on top of the required curriculum and still have time to be continually training.

    --
    Solving Unix problems since 1989...
    1. Re:It's been going on for years by Opportunist · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Been there. Only I had been lucky enough that my dad can be quite belligerent when it comes to my education. I butted head with my math teacher, mostly because I came up with a faster, easier and as it turned out better way to solve something. My dad (who is a very nice man, also for offering me the chance for a good education that his dad refused him) only asked if I'm dead sure and then we took the fight. It was a victory eventually, but what was way more important was what I learned:

      1) Just because someone claims he is an expert in something doesn't mean he is. Question his results and ask for proof. A degree means jack, a title even less. If I don't know, teach me so I can learn. Explain to understand, do not expect me to believe. This is science. Not religion.

      2) Never dismiss a solution as false based on its source. Question its merit based on itself, not on its messenger.

      3) When you're certain to be right, escalate past the person who keeps insisting you are not. Maybe there's a different agenda he is pushing aside of what's right or wrong. Quite likely, he is.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    2. Re:It's been going on for years by HBI · · Score: 4, Insightful

      More's the pity. I think I was just trying to illustrate that "education" is more about forcing minds into a particular thought process rather than "education". What I did could easily be interpreted as an anti-nuclear statement, which it essentially was. That didn't occur to the thoughtless instructor.

      --
      HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
    3. Re:It's been going on for years by Imagix · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'd agree with all of them, with the additional caveat of: dispute with respect. I've disputed many papers and exams during my education. But the discussion was always civil. "I think you've marked this answer incorrectly. Could you tell me where and how I went wrong?" and not "You thug! How dare you challenge my obvious superiority!".

    4. Re:It's been going on for years by TemporalBeing · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Even back in the 80s, I had a teacher fail me on a programming assignment because I was using things she hadn't taught yet. This isn't a 'new' problem. It's difficult for teachers to stay on top of the required curriculum and still have time to be continually training.

      That will often be the case because they want to ensure you understand what they are teaching.

      For instance, in my networking class I already had a full C/C++ network library that I personally wrote for Linux/POSIX using a similar interface design as the Windows WinSock2 API. However the professor said I could use it only after we had covered the lower level functionality in order to ensure I knew what I was doing, which I did; so my library got used for the second 2/3rds of the class instead of all of it. A little annoying, but sometimes you just have to get over it and deal with it.

      I also had a TA that took points off because I used "while(True) {...}" instead of "for (;;;) {}" for an infinite loop. The professor gave me back the points because it was not part of the assignment to do an infinite loop in that manner.

      That said, a good teacher will know when to learn from the student and how to allow the students to go beyond what they are teaching.

      --
      Truth is like the sun. You can shut it out for a time, but it ain't goin' away. - Elvis Presley (source: imdb.com)
  3. Will the training really matter? No. by garcia · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Technology funding in school districts (in my area these are tax levies) is already insanely high; mostly because we're pushing for tablet devices in schools driven, behind the scenes, by extremely lucrative vendor deals.

    Without adequate training, the related curricula are severely limited and thus the added benefits when compared to related cost are low, if at all positive.

    Now, this research, as well as the districts, are rightly saying the teachers need more training in order to leverage the technology effectively; however, what really needs to be understood is just how much training is really necessary and whether the tech gap between teachers and their students can really be mitigated.

    It is my unfounded opinion that it will never be mitigated enough as teachers are not usually well enough equipped at their own subject matter, let alone keeping up with the taxing knowledge demands of technology.

    What we need to do is take a step back and ensure that these additional tax investments in technology are actually doing anything to further student development and because they aren't, think about what we can do to actually concentrate on doing that instead of buying the new and shiny and letting it, effectively, collect dust in the corner while levy after levy is passed to support it.

  4. To be fair... by digsbo · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's one thing for a teacher, like my computer science teacher in high school, to be expected to understand computer SCIENCE. It's another to expect them to know a bunch of software packages. That's one of the big problems with computer education in schools; the idiots putting together the curriculum don't understand the difference between conceptual learning and facility with using systems.

    1. Re:To be fair... by jandrese · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This is really the key. You don't have to know the ins and outs of snapchat to teach Big O notation or data structures. That said, most primary and secondary CS teachers are way behind the times on lots of technology, and can often teach material that is no longer relevant. If they start talking about optimizing compute cycles (a topic that often comes up after Big O notation), then they're almost certainly going to be wrong now. CPU performance is dominated by cache misses, and organizing your data accesses can be far more important than reducing the total number of operations taken.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
  5. Drop the classes by itzly · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If the kids already know enough of the subject matter, that's a good indication that the class can be dropped, and replaced with something that they don't know much about.

    1. Re:Drop the classes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This. I work for a university, and official policy is that you can test out of any course, for any major, if you can prove that you already know the contents of the course ( though tests, and meeting with a group of professors who simply ask about some concepts and ask you to explain them). Saved me from having to repeat about one years worth of classes, and freed me to be able to learn things that actually were useful as opposed to being bored repeating things. High school should have the same concept. Kids aren't stupid and lowering the bar to make sure everyone feels "smart" is doing a disservice to most of the kids in class.

  6. Kids these days ... by goodmanj · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Everyone talks about how today's young people are computer geniuses, but I'm a college physics professor, and I can tell you that kids coming up from high school are as clueless about tech as their grandparents. They just know how to Twitter and Instagram, but they have no idea how computers or the Internet work.

    This isn't new, of course, nobody understands the technology their world is based on. My father and grandfather lived in an era where most people knew how a car worked and how to fix it, but in my generation that's a mystery. I understand how computers work and how to fix them, but the next generation treats them as black boxes. And so on.

  7. Meh... by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I was misdiagnosed as a mentally retarded in the first grade due to an undiagnosed hearing problem in one ear. My teachers were routinely surprised when I blew out the annual evaluation exam on the genius side, calling it a stastical fluke. Nothing was more prized in the special ed classes than a well-behaved idiot who brings in 3X funding.

  8. Big deal by Sarten-X · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Last time I was in school, I had a better grasp of "modern technology" than most of my professors. This was in a computer science program. It's not a problem, because my CS professors didn't need to teach me how to use Facebook or make a slideshow shiny enough to woo investors. They still understood algorithms better than I did, and that was the knowledge they were passing on.

    In today's shocking news story, we find that older people are familiar with an older generation of tools. For most "primary and secondary teachers", their job is to teach the basic skills and concepts that are elemental for the more advanced intellectual tasks encountered in a professional career. Sure, technology can assist in that endeavor, but it's not the whole solution. Teachers only need enough technology knowledge to use the technology needed for their classes. Anything more is gratuitous.

    --
    You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
  9. Re:You know? The ass long time in summer? by Mercury · · Score: 3, Insightful

    That only works for the cases where the teachers are paid for that time in the summer.

    Often, that is not the case, and instead they are working another job to replace the paycheck that stops coming during that period.

    It's easy to blame the teachers for this, but I try not expect people to spend a quarter of the unpaid time I see teachers already spending doing class prep, let alone more.

    (I'm sure that there are teachers that don't spend that time. I'm also sure that there are teachers, somewhere, that actually get paid for that time. But the ones I know personally already spend huge amounts of completely unpaid time on class prep, and often are just left out in the cold entirely during the summer unless they are teaching summer classes.)

  10. Complexity by sjbe · · Score: 5, Insightful

    My father and grandfather lived in an era where most people knew how a car worked and how to fix it, but in my generation that's a mystery.

    I assure you that at no time in history did "most people" know how cars worked or how to fix them. Perhaps a higher percentage of the population than now but it never was "most". Not ever.

    Most people have always been clueless to varying degrees about many technologies they depend on. Furthermore, while the basic principles of how cars work hasn't really changed much, there is a LOT more technology involved these days so there is much more to learn. I have owned cars where you could almost literally stand in the engine compartment with the engine still in the vehicle. You could do that because they were very simple compared to today's vehicles. Now you have to deal with a myriad of sensors, ECUs, emissions control equipment, electronics and other stuff that simply didn't even exist 40+ years ago. An engine compartment is packed very tightly now and there is a lot more to know about.

    I understand how computers work and how to fix them, but the next generation treats them as black boxes.

    No more than they ever did. However the same thing applies. When I was younger it was actually possible to have a fairly complete understanding of how the 8088 computer on your desk worked. The technology now is quite a bit more complex "under the hood" (so to speak) and it's a lot harder to understand more than basic principles. It can still be done but there is more to learn than there once was.

  11. Wow by sootman · · Score: 4, Insightful

    68% of primary and secondary teachers are concerned that their pupils have a better understanding of computing than they do. Moreover, the pupils reinforced this finding with 47% claiming that their teachers need more training...

    Polls are great, but just imagine what it would be like if we lived in a world where there was actually a way to measure who knows what...

    --
    Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
  12. Teaching by ledow · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Then stop teaching.

    Seriously, I work in schools - I'm an IT Manager for independent (private) schools. The good teachers are the ones that have knowledge to impart to the kids, the other type generally do not know anything until they have to teach it and then they learn it badly and, thus, teach it badly. Can you imagine being a science or maths teacher and never having done "chemical reactions" or "simultaneous equations"? Sure, there's always an answer that even the teacher won't know but it shouldn't be something so far out of your reach that you can't a) take an educated guess on the spot and b) come back the next day with the properly researched answer.

    With the best IT teachers, I can discuss electronics, computer science and mathematics at a level where neither of us need explain ourselves. They've probably done my job in the past, for the most part, too. And, very deliberately, they will refer to themselves as IT teachers or CS teachers and not ICT teacher (which involves using a computer to do word processing, not anything the kids couldn't pick up on their own in ten minutes).

    The last lot of students that went through the school I'm at were building drones running on Raspberry Pi's and .NET Gadgeteer, they were cobbling together Z80 and 6502 circuits in their lunch break, and they were programming in C#, C and assembler. Some of it wasn't stuff we'd done before, but we managed to teach them new stuff all the way through, based on extensive knowledge of the subject and actually SITTING AND LEARNING the stuff they wanted to learn in advance so they could be taught effectively. And, there, it's really more of a "I've never done C# but it's a programming language that I just need to learn the quirks and syntax of and all my old knowledge then comes back into play".

    If you can't do this, as an IT teacher, then you probably should go back to school yourself. This is no more insulting than suggesting that a French teacher know French, or a Maths teacher know Maths.

    If you're not the one teaching, why bother to have you there?

  13. Re:Teachers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Yeah, they will be much better educated than you.

    Ignorance is bliss.

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/aug/30/home-schooling-outstanding-results-national-tests/

    http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2011/09/study-of-the-day-home-schooled-children-score-higher-on-tests/245036/

  14. The best teachers aren't afraid of that by istartedi · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The best teachers aren't afraid of students who know something they don't. Teaching teachers all the knowledge is impossible. Teaching teachers humility is possible, though seldom seen.

    --
    For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?