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The Paradoxes That Threaten To Tear Modern Cosmology Apart

KentuckyFC writes Revolutions in science often come from the study of seemingly unresolvable paradoxes. So an interesting exercise is to list the paradoxes associated with current ideas in science. One cosmologist has done just that by exploring the paradoxes associated with well-established ideas and observations about the structure and origin of the universe. Perhaps the most dramatic of these paradoxes comes from the idea that the universe must be expanding. What's curious about this expansion is that space, and the vacuum associated with it, must somehow be created in this process. And yet nobody knows how this can occur. What's more, there is an energy associated with any given volume of the universe. If that volume increases, the inescapable conclusion is that the energy must increase as well. So much for conservation of energy. And even the amount of energy associated with the vacuum is a puzzle with different calculations contradicting each other by 120 orders of magnitude. Clearly, anybody who can resolve these problems has a bright future in science but may also end up tearing modern cosmology apart.

231 comments

  1. "inescapable conclusion" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    > What's more, there is an energy associated with any given volume of the universe. If that volume increases, the inescapable conclusion is that the energy must increase as well. So much for conservation of energy.

    ???
    Why cant the energy just be less dense?

    1. Re:"inescapable conclusion" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      The vacuum seems to have energy, so if space itself expands, the vacuum left has to either not have any energy whatsoever or drain the energy from nearby space. And since the energy of the vacuum seems to be constant, the conclusion is that the expansion is creating vacuum with its own energy

    2. Re:"inescapable conclusion" by Strangely+Familiar · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think it is because vacuum energy is calculated on the basis of the field theory, which in turn depends on constants like the charge of the electron. I am pretty certain that calculations of the vacuum energy do not depend on the size of the universe. Puzzles like these are really important so that people can think of new questions to ask based on problems they didn't previously realize existed. These puzzles challenge our notions of space and time, which to me, are pretty tenuous notions.

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    3. Re:"inescapable conclusion" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Also, I saw the evidence for "modern" physics and I've never been convinced of it. As far as I can tell, the void is filled of all possible particles and matter are the "empty" bubbles breaking the symmetry, that would make possible the transversal waves in the void that killed the ether theory, explain why there is a limit to the speed of anything and would provide a medium of propagation for the forces without falling back to "magic" fields.

      It would also provide a framework to explain why there is energy in the vacuum and why the expansion of the universe leaves energy behind (some kind of horizon event taking antimatter and leaving "space" holes behind... that would also explain the matter\antimatter asymmetry in the universe).

      Yes, I know. the nobel prize will be shared amongst all ac's that ever posted here

    4. Re:"inescapable conclusion" by gmagill · · Score: 1

      Why cant the energy just be less dense?

      up to what point?

    5. Re: "inescapable conclusion" by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      Clearly to zero.

      Hence the article, and the questions.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    6. Re:"inescapable conclusion" by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 4, Funny

      void that killed the ether theory, explain why there is a limit to the speed of anything and would provide a medium of propagation for the forces without falling back to "magic" fields.

      Any sufficiently advanced universe is indistinguishable from magic :-)

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    7. Re:"inescapable conclusion" by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      I am pretty certain that calculations of the vacuum energy do not depend on the size of the universe.

      I am pretty certain the idea's never been tested. And may not even be testable. So you might want to adjust your confidence level a bit. At least until we can go everywhere and measure everything. Breath-holding doesn't seem to be called for.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    8. Re:"inescapable conclusion" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, thats what field theory is about. We don't know what fields are, we don't know what carries the forces, we only know that particles interact with the fields in certain predictable patterns, so we assume fields expand to the infinite and live happily ever after with our formulas and without any explanation whatsoever.

    9. Re:"inescapable conclusion" by Baloroth · · Score: 4, Informative

      > What's more, there is an energy associated with any given volume of the universe. If that volume increases, the inescapable conclusion is that the energy must increase as well. So much for conservation of energy.

      ??? Why cant the energy just be less dense?

      The FLRW metric (which is what the equation that governs the cosmological expansion of spacetime) has a cosmological constant term in it, initially placed there by Einstein to maintain a steady state universe, but which we now know drives an accelerating expansion of the universe. This constant term is exactly that: a constant (negative) energy per volume of space. More space means more total energy.

      However, TFS and TFA (I've only scanned the referenced paper, but that looks much more reasonable) are absolutely wrong about why this is a problem. It is a problem, but only in the sense of figuring out where it comes from (i.e. what exact mechanism drives the creation of this energy). The fact that energy is not conserved violates no law of physics: in fact, general relativity doesn't conserve energy anyways, and the expansion of the universe certainly does not (even without the non-conservative nature of gravity).

      See, the conservation of energy is a result of Noether's theorem, which states that for any differentiable symmetry of the action of a physical system, there is a corresponding paired conservation law. For time symmetry, this is the conservation of energy. However, time on the scales of the universe is not symmetric. There was a beginning to the universe (which alone breaks the symmetry: you can't shift backwards in time more than ~13 billion years), and the universe as it is now looks nothing like it did 10 billion years ago. So we don't expect energy to be conserved in the universe as a whole (even if it is on local scales).

      --
      "None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." --John Milton
    10. Re:"inescapable conclusion" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Professor" AC here. The solution to that puzzlement is that the energy comes from the Big Bang, and increasingly from the energy of the void, should that be the dark energy. Or something.

    11. Re:"inescapable conclusion" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am pretty certain the idea's never been tested. And may not even be testable.

      It has been tested. Look a couple posts up or down for explanations referencing the FLRW metric. The meaningfulness and quality of that test is pretty decent, although that could change in the light of alternative theories, so far it stands.

    12. Re:"inescapable conclusion" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      in fact, general relativity doesn't conserve energy anyways,

      GR does conserve energy, but in a very messy way with a lot of subtleties that means it gets skipped over in the grad level intro courses. Especially when dealing with an expanding metric, it is possible to formulate a contrived analogy to potential energy.

      There was a beginning to the universe (which alone breaks the symmetry: you can't shift backwards in time more than ~13 billion years), and the universe as it is now looks nothing like it did 10 billion years ago.

      The beginning of the universe does not need to conserve energy, but things as far as we can tell are conserved after that. The fact that things look different doesn't contradict the type of symmetry needed by Noether's theorem, just as Noether's theorem applies just fine in classical mechanics despite the second law of thermodynamics.

    13. Re:"inescapable conclusion" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That is what any fundamental theory is about. At some level, if you keep asking why things are the way they are, the answer will be, "Because that is what it looks like when we observe things." Whether that is in the form of fields, strings, particles, etc., can't change that, unless the natural philosophers were right that the universe can be deduced from pure logic without observation.

    14. Re:"inescapable conclusion" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I see we have a fan of Lee Smolin.

    15. Re:"inescapable conclusion" by Strangely+Familiar · · Score: 1

      unless the natural philosophers were right that the universe can be deduced from pure logic without observation.

      Now that is an interesting notion. Unless you believe in the soul, or a "ghost in the machine" theory of consiousness, then pure logic, as a resident of the physical human brain, should obey the laws of physics just as any other physical thing obeys the laws of physics. In a sense, pure logic can be both an experiment and an observation.

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    16. Re:"inescapable conclusion" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from reality.

    17. Re:"inescapable conclusion" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry, your link to the FLRW article doesn't work for me. This does.

      Reading TFA, I cannot understand why all the fuss with the homogeneity and the linearity of Hubble's Law. Maybe someone that is more into physics than me can explain, but for me it looks like we are mistaken a cow for a sphere. Sure, the FLRW allows us to approximate the behaviour of the universe at the larger scales. Does it mean that the universe is exactly as the FLRW says? Hell, no. It's an approximation. Can we do better? sure, but it's going to be hairier (pun intended).

      But if you find a real spherical cow, hey, call me!

    18. Re:"inescapable conclusion" by Viol8 · · Score: 1

      "The beginning of the universe does not need to conserve energy, but things as far as we can tell are conserved after that."

      As fas as we can tell beig the important clause there. Besides which - the energy causing the expansion could be coming from outside our universe if one adhers to the multiverse theory , in which case all bets are off.

    19. Re:"inescapable conclusion" by robi5 · · Score: 1

      Nah, it's much simpler. The universe is floating in a sea of vacuum, which seeps through the pores of the universe, i.e. it's statistically unlikely but the energy balance is zero. You can immediately grasp the concept if you think of a squashed sponge ball, which as it expands, it soaks up air from its neighborhood. And of course if physicists are happy to buy into the idea that the Universe just sprang out of nothing, why not think that it sprang out like a sponge ball compressed (or nanoprinted) into a tiny space?

      **ducks**

    20. Re:"inescapable conclusion" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can we do better? sure...

      It is not a question easily answered by just assuming things can be better in a certain way when discussing quantitative theories. That said, observations don't yet show structures that would be large enough to defeat the basic conclusions from the FLRW model's assumption of an isotropic universe above a certain scale, and there are computer simulations for more detailed, non-analytic models that produce similar results to the current universe.

    21. Re:"inescapable conclusion" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      then pure logic, as a resident of the physical human brain, should obey the laws of physics just as any other physical thing obeys the laws of physics.

      Just because the medium for a calculation must follow some laws does not mean that the calculations themselves must have any bearing or connection on those laws. One could test for various limits, but there is no reason to assume such a machine is anywhere near the limits government by the laws of physics.

      How much can a CPU be used to determine the laws of physics that govern it without external input or measurements? How can it tell the difference between a universe that has different gravitational constants, and how would it know what there even is to be affected by gravity or what gravity is?

    22. Re:"inescapable conclusion" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As fas as we can tell beig the important clause there.

      As far as we can tell is a clause in every statement of science.

    23. Re:"inescapable conclusion" by towermac · · Score: 1

      I've always felt like the big bang was an easy out to both explain red shift and allow for creation. Not that I have a problem with creation or the existence of God even; it just seems awfully convenient.

      $1 says we go back to a steady state universe in our lifetime.

    24. Re:"inescapable conclusion" by ultranova · · Score: 1

      The vacuum seems to have energy, so if space itself expands, the vacuum left has to either not have any energy whatsoever or drain the energy from nearby space.

      But if cosmological constant is greater thanzero, then our normal intuition of gravity is simply incorrect: what we perceive as gravitational potential is simply the crater at the top of a mountain of infinite height. No conservation law is being broken here, the universe simply contains a built-in wellspring of endless energy that's paying for the creation. Think of it as the ultimate renewable: very disperse but utterly inexhaustible.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    25. Re:"inescapable conclusion" by justthinkit · · Score: 1

      Your FLRW link does not resolve. Click the first result on this page to get there. "i with a hat" problem...

      --
      I come here for the love
    26. Re:"inescapable conclusion" by david_thornley · · Score: 2

      Pure logic gives us tautologies and nothing more. (They can be very complicated, interesting, and useful tautologies, of course.) Since tautologies hold no matter what the state of the Universe, they can't tell us anything about the state of the Universe.

      The idea of synthetic a priori knowledge comes, I think, from geometry and arithmetic. Way back when, these were recognized as pure logic, but they were also believed to be descriptions of reality. There was also metaphysics, which AFAICT was based largely on grammar: if you describe the world with nouns and adjectives, it's natural to think of substances with attributes. Eventually, we figured out that arithmetic and geometry aren't universally applicable in their classical forms. They're still extremely useful in describing reality, but we have to know what parts of reality to describe how. Near black holes, for example, geometry gets really weird, but for many purposes the old Euclidean geometry is adequate.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    27. Re:"inescapable conclusion" by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Enough decades ago, you would have found a great many scientists agreeing with you. Since then, the evidence for the big bang has been piling up, and pretty much everybody who's studied the evidence believes there was a big bang.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    28. Re:"inescapable conclusion" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am pretty certain that calculations of the vacuum energy do not depend on the size of the universe.

      I am pretty certain the idea's never been tested. And may not even be testable. So you might want to adjust your confidence level a bit. At least until we can go everywhere and measure everything. Breath-holding doesn't seem to be called for.

      "I am pretty certain that calculations of..." sounds to me like a statement about the behavior of humans. So no need to adjust the GP's confidence level.

    29. Re:"inescapable conclusion" by Strangely+Familiar · · Score: 1
      Those are very good questions, and I don't have the answers. Probably because I don't have a very good definition of what pure logic is, or even if it exists. I struggle with those questions. Obviously, it is better to have eyes to see and ears to hear in addition to a CPU to compute, in order to run physical experiments. I don't know whether, logically, eyes and ears are necessary. Unfortunately, my tiny brain has not reached the limits of pure logic. So I just don't know.

      .

      On the other hand, I believe I have used pure logic to understand some things about space and time. I believed for many years that there was no possibility of a final theory in physics, on the basis of logic. But in 2007, I had a change in my logical thinking, and found a logical error I was making. It was in understanding the limits of my own personal logical abilities that finally convinced me that a final theory was possible. Strangely enough. And, understanding these limits led to conclusions about the nature of space and time. So that's why I said what I said. I still need to publish my findings. I have not found the time and motivation to fully explain them in a manner worthy of publication. OMG, why am I saying these things to an annoymous coward? You will never circle back and read my reply.

      .

      And I must point out that every calculation must obey the laws of physics, even if the interpretation of the way it obeys the laws of physics is not transparent. If there is a complete set of laws, there is only one complete set of laws. Otherwise, it is not the complete set of laws I am talking about. Everything must obey the one complete set of laws. Everything. Every calculation, every thought, every expression, every version of this sentence. All. must. obey. You may not understand how it obeys, or interpret the way it obeys correctly. But everything obeys.

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    30. Re:"inescapable conclusion" by Serenissima · · Score: 1
      So, I'm definitely not a physicist, but I have a question that your comment seems to be at the root of.

      The beginning of the universe does not need to conserve energy, but things as far as we can tell are conserved after that.

      As far as I understand it, we're trying to figure out what's happening on the edge of the expanding universe, but we have no idea what is outside of our universe that it is expanding into. It could be something that doesn't follow any of our laws of physics and is inexplicable, all we know is that it not this universe. If we know our Universe started in NotThisUniverse, and you mention the beginning of the universe does not need to conserve energy, then doesn't it follow that energy came from NotThisUniverse? And possibly, once here our laws of physics allowed for the creation of a stable universe? If so, could we explain the vacuum energy as saying that the expansion of our universe into NotThisUniverse is allowing the conversion/transfer/creation of energy from NotThisUniverse "stuff" to our universe stuff?

      --
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    31. Re:"inescapable conclusion" by Methadras · · Score: 1

      In effect, space itself is a perpetual motion machine.

    32. Re:"inescapable conclusion" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As far as I understand it, we're trying to figure out what's happening on the edge of the expanding universe, but we have no idea what is outside of our universe that it is expanding into.

      Currently there doesn't seem to be any need for an "edge" to the universe. There is an edge to the observable universe, but that depends on where you are, and there is nothing there that satisfies the common question, "What does the universe expand into?" Most current theories don't have any provision from outside influence, although some proposed theories do. But at some point, you're either postulating something is there that can never be observed directly (so there would be no distinction between it being another universe and it being just a certain pattern of non conservation of energy), or you're redefining "universe" and just showing there is more stuff there than we could see before.

    33. Re:"inescapable conclusion" by JimFive · · Score: 1
      Great post and thanks for the explanation. I do have one nitpick, though

      (which is what the equation that governs the cosmological expansion of spacetime)

      The equation does not govern the expansion, the equation describes or models the expansion. In the same way that the map is not the territory, the math is not the universe.

      --
      JimFive

      --
      Please stop using the word theory when you mean hypothesis.
    34. Re:"inescapable conclusion" by towermac · · Score: 1

      I also agree with the evidence, and will be shocked if I win that dollar. But I do find the speculation interesting.

      I'll disagree with piling up. We got red shift and the CMB, as far as evidence goes. That's about it.

      Not everything would change with steady state, you'd just have to start with explaining those two things. And yes, a few theories of interest to nerds would change from those changes.

      Here's a thought, the gravitational constant was part of Einstein's steady state universe. He was convinced otherwise, yet we still have it. What if it's not constant? What if 'tired light' is the result of travelling through varying values of g? It should be a constant. We even named it that. But we don't know that to be a fact. It's a theoretical value that appears to measure up when we test it here on Earth.

      On the CMB, yeah I got nothing. Teh big bang explains it pretty well. Which is why this is only fit to post on /. :) Perhaps a steady state infinite universe would also have background noise...

      But a lot of it is theory. I hope we are not painted into an academic corner so that any physics breakthrough has to break everything. I hope that science is not stuck in a rut the same way society is.

      Also, I got Einstein's initial gut feeling helping me win that $1. That's not nothing.

    35. Re:"inescapable conclusion" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We got red shift and the CMB, as far as evidence goes. That's about it.

      Plus light element composition ratios, large scale galaxy structures, and star ages. Plus CMB has become a multifaceted thing, which is where a lot of the piling is happening, because beyond just being a black body spectrum, there is several aspects of the anisotropies, polarization, SZ effect, etc.

    36. Re:"inescapable conclusion" by strikethree · · Score: 1

      All is one... a sort of field. There is no such thing as matter or space-time. (empirically there is but we will get to that momentarily)

      As this field cools, it begins to separate. As energy "cools" it condenses into "knots of energy" called matter. What is left over from this is called space, but as pointed out previously, should really be called space-time as they are both properties of what is left when you extract "matter" from the One Field.

      Gravity does not exist (empirically it does). It is merely an artifact of time in relation to "matter". There is no quantum foam (empirically there is), that is merely an artifact of the One Field trying to be one again.

      It is your empirical knowledge that is making it so hard for "mankind" to see the truth of it all.

      Signed,
      Knar Goowoos from the Spiro galaxy in the year as you reckon it 87,948.6

      --
      "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
    37. Re:"inescapable conclusion" by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      There was a beginning to the universe (which alone breaks the symmetry: you can't shift backwards in time more than ~13 billion years)...

      Well, it might be better to say that we have no scientific knowledge of what came before the big bang, and as best as we can tell it is impossible to ever obtain knowledge of what came before.

      It is convenient to call this a "beginning of time" or something like that, but this is a bit of a contrived definition.

      But, as has been pointed out elsewhere in this thread our definitions of things like space and time are already pretty tenuous in general. We're very good at predicting the results of experiments, but we're not so good at really understanding why the universe actually works the way it seems to. The equations don't really provide much insight into what is actually happening.

    38. Re:"inescapable conclusion" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Statistically unlikely"

      Uhm, we can't say that because we do not have data from more than this one observable universe. That's known as the cosmic variance problem among physical cosmologists.

      It's also unclear what you mean by the energy balance being zero. There is a lot of energy in the universe, much of which exerts pressure (the various matter fields and their content) and some of which exerts negative pressure (dark energy, whatever that is). Pressure here is a term in the Einstein tensor, and is essentially the amount of field content piled up in a region of spacetime -- pressure, like the other components of the stress-energy-momentum (Einstien) tensor, is self-gravitating, and becomes the dominant term in extremely dense compact objects (like collapsars), causing a local metric contraction of space. Negative pressure, conversely, is self-anti-gravitating. Piling up negative pressure field content in one place will cause a local metric expansion of space. The most successfully tested models of dark energy show that it does not pile up much, and is sprinkled pretty uniformly at a low value (relative to the pressure of theoretical vacuum) around the whole observable universe, and does not dilute away (unlike the positive pressure fields) with the metric expansion of space. This means the energy content of the negative pressure sector is increasing with the metric expansion of space, leading to an enormous increase in the energy of the universe's field contents.

      However, in General Relativity there is the conservation of energy-momentum, which is a generalization of the conservation of energy. The latter is violated enormously by the metric expansion of space, and by the metric contraction of space too, both of which are local but commonplace phenomena. However, the changes in the metric impart momentum to the field content embedded in the spacetime (and vice-versa, which is why galaxies don't rip apart), and the balance there is exact (this was beautifully demonstrated by Emmy Noether).

      The "sponge expansion" model falls apart quickly when you consider the pressure nonuniformities within a physical sponge, and also the interface between the sponge and the air (how does your sponge do in an evacuated bell jar?). The lack of dilution is vaguely (very vaguely!) similar to air popping up spontaneously *everywhere* within an expanding sponge, rather than it being drawn into it at an edge. However, that doesn't really give any intuition as when we continue, the lack of dilution as space expands would mean that the sponge would not only "spring back" to its uncompressed, lowest-energy level, but would continue inflating beyond that, up to and past the structural failure point of the spongy matrix. We have already reached that point; the negative pressure content dominates the equation of state in the FLRW model of cosmology (which professionals working in it (like boristhespider on slashdot) will tell you is *also* not an especially intuition-provoking model, and has some calculational problems too).

      Finally, no working physical cosmologists or close relatives in astrophysics etc. will tell you they are *happy* about the universe springing out of nothing. They likely all would tell you that regressing the FLRW model and most reasonably successful equivalents lead to an early boundary at which there is such a hot dense universe that our models for the behaviour of known field content (the electroweak and QCD sectors) fail to make physically plausible predictions, and the behaviour of theoretical field content (dark energy, the inflation field (if different from dark energy), dark matter) likely dominate and we don't know much about them. That's the interface between physical cosmology on the General Relativity side and physical cosmology on the gauge theory side -- physical cosmologists are bound to be gauge theorists, since the Standard Model and other gauge theories are so successful at explaining the behaviour of the known field content (see, for ex

  2. So God did it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

    Got it.

  3. Sure some theories will change but... by crioca · · Score: 5, Funny

    The only thing that's tearing cosmology apart is the gradual expansion of space.

    1. Re:Sure some theories will change but... by atherophage · · Score: 0

      Halton Arp and the electric universe folk suggest red shift is not a measure of age/distance but rather of electrical stress. If the universe is not expanding; if electricity is the dominant force, not gravity, then the only paradox here is why we keep spending billions of dollars propping-up the gravity based status-quo?

    2. Re:Sure some theories will change but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Halton Arp and the electric universe folk are a bunch of whackjobs who need to go back on their meds.

    3. Re:Sure some theories will change but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Funny that doesn't come up in the variety of diagnostics for spectroscopically measuring electrical and magnetic fields in both lab and astrophysical plasmas...

    4. Re:Sure some theories will change but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The electric universe folks are not taken seriously because their ideas violate almost all known laws of physics without showing how they should be modified and without accounting for existing measurement data. They have also made no testable predictions that have turned out to be true.
      The basic problem is that they aren't knowledgable enough about the field in which they are dabbling. This then leads them to make a lot of simple mistakes which they cannot spot themselves because they don't know the things which are inconsistent with their ideas and which need to be accounted for.

    5. Re:Sure some theories will change but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Halton Arp and the electric universe folk are EDUCATED STUPID EVIL.

    6. Re:Sure some theories will change but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The basic problem is that they aren't knowledgable enough about the field in which they are dabbling. This then leads them to make a lot of simple mistakes which they cannot spot themselves because they don't know the things which are inconsistent with their ideas and which need to be accounted for.

      What's sad is I've seen some of the electric universe proponents at actual conferences, and yet they make claims contradicting basic things said in talks I've seen them in. I don't mean contradicting in the sense they disagree with a theory, but that they attribute strawman claims to mainstream astrophysicists, or even claim that an idea is absent from astrophysics despite sitting through talks on it. If they aren't being disingenuous, it takes a special kind of blindness.

  4. I don't get it by slashmydots · · Score: 4, Interesting

    If there are no particles moving at all, how does empty space have energy? It's the textbook definition of lack of energy. Empty space cannot impart energy on matter and it can't spontaneously create matter. There's some theory about virtual particles but their net energy is zero when they combine so that's not it. Can anyone explain why empty space has energy?

    1. Re:I don't get it by Black.Shuck · · Score: 1

      Can anyone explain why empty space has energy?

      Nope, but we have a name for it anyway: Dark Energy.

    2. Re:I don't get it by smooth+wombat · · Score: 4, Informative

      how does empty space have energy?

      That was my question as well until I read Brian Greene's explanation in his book, The Fabric of the Cosmos.

      In short, the Higgs Field. Long answer, think of what we call space as a fabric (hence the title of his book). The Higgs Field is the fabric upon which everything else "sits". Even if there are no particles in a given unit of space, it is not empty because the Higgs Field is still there.

      Start on page 254 of his book and work your way through as he describes the field and how it (supposedly) permeates everything.

      --
      We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
    3. Re:I don't get it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-point_energy

    4. Re:I don't get it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Clearly, it's god.

    5. Re:I don't get it by lkcl · · Score: 0

      Can anyone explain why empty space has energy?

      blind leading the blind, here, but my non-specialist-physics background might be a bit easier to understand than someone who mentions "QCD" at you. the way i understand it is that when you have particles around, they have E.M and gravitational fields, and they have binding forces and so on at the very-close (atomic) level which kiiinda mean that if you get close to them with another particle you either get sucked in, or banged away (like billiard balls) - actually _very_ much like billiar balls, in that you have to get *really* close in order for a deflection to occur [at all] but when you do you really know about it.

      and, what we also know is that in non-vacuum there are *lots* of these particles. so, relatively speaking, even in a gas like any one particle really doesn't have to go that far to get banged-up by any other particle.

      in other words, your average particle or your average photon (cosmic ray equals a photon with a very high energy content) has a huge amount of "resistance" applied to it, in *all* directions pretty much. this "resistance" means we end up with solid matter (ok gases too) that *stays* solid. stable. follows newton's laws and so on.

      in empty space, there is *no such resistance*. there's nothing to get in the way, nothing to interfere with particles or rays. so even the smallest disturbance when two photons (cosmic rays) happen to cross paths, or one hits an atom, can result in "smaaashhh, wheeee!" any by-products of such collisions, which would normally be instantly destroyed by neighbouring particles, preciselybecause there *aren't* any neighbouring particles, the by-products get to stay alive for much longer [possibly forever].

      so my take on this is that it's not so much that "empty space has energy", it's that empty space - by *being* empty - doesn't "resist" (so to speak) the creation process of particles. *scratches head*. ... a bit like how if you have one extrovert in a party that's only just started, has huuge rooms, and nobody knows anyone else, the extrovert will stand in the middle of the room happily dancing and the very few other guests else will hug the walls, but if you have *lots* of extroverts in the room, then, well... it's just an another awesome party :)

    6. Re:I don't get it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because empty space is full of particles and antiparticles entangled with each others and oscillating over the neutral point. What we measure is the differential of the oscillations. Thats why when you hit empty space with beams of the right energy level you create a pair of particle and its antiparticle. The energy is "returned" short afterwards when the antiparticle gets annihilated with another particle of the same class.

    7. Re:I don't get it by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      Because empty space is full of particles

      No, see, by definition, that's non-empty space. Empty space is... empty.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    8. Re:I don't get it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      In short, the Higgs Field

      There is nothing special about the Higgs field in that regard. Field theories in general will attribute energy to the vacuum. Just plain old quantum electrodynamics dealing only with fields for photons, electrons and positrons will have a vacuum energy. The Higgs field contributes to that, but it is not the only part, as the Standard model and a lot of related things are all field theories with many all-permeating fields. (Also why comparing Higgs field to the aether is annoying, because such people typically never heard of other fields, quantum or classical.)

    9. Re:I don't get it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Empty space is... empty.

      Something that doesn't exist. Sometimes it is easier to just use effective definitions that are actually usable instead of keeping things defined in an ideal way that is useless.

    10. Re:I don't get it by duke_cheetah2003 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Start on page 254 of his book and work your way through as he describes the field and how it (supposedly) permeates everything.

      This just instantly makes me think of "The Force."

    11. Re:I don't get it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As opposed to electromagnetic fields that permeate everything too?

    12. Re:I don't get it by Gavagai80 · · Score: 1

      Particles are not all touching each other, so the distance between them is necessarily considered empty. The space between a nucleus and electrons in an atom, the space between different atoms, etc. These spaces have field energy but no particles so they're empty.

      --
      This space intentionally left blank
    13. Re:I don't get it by dbc · · Score: 1

      George Lucas in Love https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

    14. Re: I don't get it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No paradox, bad definitions. Empty, but you can measure something there, means it "ain't" empty. I keep going back to my microscope training, and then to the adage, are, you sure of the target? Meaning you can be dead on and still be wrong.

    15. Re:I don't get it by slashmydots · · Score: 1

      Resist means it had opposite direction energy and since it doesn't then...space has no energy. I still don't get it.

    16. Re:I don't get it by Bengie · · Score: 1

      Virtual particles do impart force. My understanding is that it is a net of zero, Universe wide, but maybe not locally. Virtual particles can push two plates together, and create torque issues with nano-structures.

  5. Since when did unknown == paradox?? by khchung · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Perhaps the most dramatic of these paradoxes comes from the idea that the universe must be expanding. [...] yet nobody knows how this can occur.

    Since when did "paradox" became a synonym for "unknown"?

    Yeah, nobody knows how space expands, but how does that make it a "paradox"?

    --
    Oliver.
    1. Re:Since when did unknown == paradox?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The implications are paradoxical.

    2. Re:Since when did unknown == paradox?? by Dastardly · · Score: 5, Informative

      Paradox - "a statement or proposition that, despite sound (or apparently sound) reasoning from acceptable premises, leads to a conclusion that seems senseless, logically unacceptable, or self-contradictory."

      The paradox is that energy is supposed to be conserved, but space has energy and is increasing. So, we have a logically unacceptable a conclusion.

      Just because it is a current paradox doesn't mean it can never be resolved. We find an energy source, or figure out the laws of physics which in this case allow for the creation of energy and is stops being a paradox.

      Quantum physics calculations say the vacuum energy is one value while measurements of the curvature of the universe say it is a different value. That is a paradox especially when both Quantum physics and the physics involved in measuring the curvature of the universe seem to both be right in other respects such that making changes to resolve this paradox causes them to stop describing other things accurately. So, we have logically unacceptable conclusion.

      The red shift thing doesn't look like a paradox, but a really cool test of our understanding of cosmological red shift.

      And, the homogeneity problem could be a paradox linearity of expansion says the universe is homogenous, observations say it is not. But, they don't mention whether observations have done a reasonable job of determining the dark matter distribution of the universe.

      There are paradoxes in the article, but it does drift into one topic that is not a paradox and another that is borderline.

    3. Re:Since when did unknown == paradox?? by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      It's a paradox because everything we know says it can't happen.

      In other words, if a paradox is a contradiction, then here we have all the evidence that shows something can't happen, plus evidence that shows it is happening.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    4. Re:Since when did unknown == paradox?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Perhaps the most dramatic of these paradoxes comes from the idea that the universe must be expanding. [...] yet nobody knows how this can occur.

      Since when did "paradox" became a synonym for "unknown"?

      Yeah, nobody knows how space expands, but how does that make it a "paradox"?

      The implications are paradoxical.

      Only if those implications are proven true and match the cause-effect relation to what is being implicated. Since we don't know the truth to suppose a paradox is farcical.

    5. Re:Since when did unknown == paradox?? by Strangely+Familiar · · Score: 2

      If an unknown paradox fell on top of a tree falling in the woods, but no philosophers could debate the paradox since it was unknown, would it affect whether the tree makes a sound?

      --
      Join the IParty!
    6. Re:Since when did unknown == paradox?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you an idiot? Obviously that's the point. Our current line of thinking results in theoretical paradoxes. Obviously paradoxes are not real so examine the paradoxes to figure out where your problems are and rip the current ideas in cosmology to shreds.

    7. Re:Since when did unknown == paradox?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The point of a Zen koan is the direct descendant of Taoist paradox. The process of considering paradox changes the brain and allows for enlightenment.

    8. Re:Since when did unknown == paradox?? by msauve · · Score: 1

      Does a philosopher shit in the woods?

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    9. Re:Since when did unknown == paradox?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Typically when getting to things that involve formal mathematics, I'm used to paradox meaning self-contradictory only, not counter-intuitive or contradictory with other things. In that sense, none of these things are self-contradictory, as it is possible for GR to violate conservation of energy with the conjunction with the creation of the universe. Maybe there is a fix that forces energy conservation in a more intuitive way, or maybe energy conservation has some exceptions (or holds in more complicated, messy ways, as is the case with GR). QFT predictions of energy being off is just a case of a massive gap in current theories, not so much a paradox.

      Maybe the mess of people using different definitions of paradox has to do with science being a mix of inductive and deductive logic... but at least this is less annoying than when things like the Monty Hall problem or wave-particle duality being called paradoxes.

    10. Re:Since when did unknown == paradox?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a paradox because everything we know says it can't happen.

      In other words, if a paradox is a contradiction, then here we have all the evidence that shows something can't happen, plus evidence that shows it is happening.

      This reminds me of the mental corner that pre-Ensteinian physics had painted itself into regarding questions involving the speed of light and how it can appear to be moving at the same speed regardless of the frame of reference of the observer.. in essence they were formulating a question that did not lend itself to a conclusion due to poor wording. Essentially they were asking "How can the universe act like this when we know that it can't". This very approach leads one to question observations rather than questioning ones understanding of what they are observing. This has come to be known as a classic fallacy which is addressed by adherence to the scientific method.

      The better question here is:

      "We have observed phenomenon x, what are the implications of the universe acting like this"?

      When I bring this up usually even scientifically minded and competent people tend to roll their eyes, but there are parallels in art, drawing for instance:

      In order to create a likeness of an individual or scene one has to discipline themselves to drawing what they see and not what they know. On a fundamental level these two things are the same process, questioning the implications of what we observe and can confirm by experiment and drawing what one sees instead of what one knows is there.

    11. Re:Since when did unknown == paradox?? by sjames · · Score: 1

      It just means there's something we don't know. The energy comes from something, much like potential energy can become kinetic energy.

    12. Re:Since when did unknown == paradox?? by phantomfive · · Score: 2

      Yeah, investigating the paradoxes is one of the most fruitful methods of scientific inquiry and new understanding.

      The counterpoint to that is, speculation about paradoxes is one of the most fruitful methods for nutcases and weirdos.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    13. Re:Since when did unknown == paradox?? by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Indeed, that is the answer to almost every paradox.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    14. Re:Since when did unknown == paradox?? by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

      only if no one hears him

      --
      intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    15. Re:Since when did unknown == paradox?? by sjames · · Score: 1

      True, but paradox is a rather strong word to use in this case. Usually a paradox involves a careful chain of logic that inexorably leads to an absurd conclusion. Particularly when the flaw of reasoning eludes careful examination.

    16. Re:Since when did unknown == paradox?? by Strangely+Familiar · · Score: 1

      Obviously paradoxes are not real so examine the paradoxes...

      If paradoxes are not real, how do we examine them? How do we even know about them, if they are not real? If they are not real, they must not really exist. So, are you saying the only true paradoxes are the ones we don't know about and which don't exist? Wow. I think I get it now. It has been 42 all along, but 42 is just a number. 42 isn't a real thing, and that is the true paradox. I don't know the answer, because paradoxes are not real, which means I do know the answer, which is 42.

      --
      Join the IParty!
    17. Re:Since when did unknown == paradox?? by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      That's certainly one use of the word!

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    18. Re:Since when did unknown == paradox?? by towermac · · Score: 1

      That's a bit harsh, isn't it? Wouldn't you say that investigations start with speculation?

    19. Re:Since when did unknown == paradox?? by joe_frisch · · Score: 1

      Agreed. Also, if you someone is worried about conservation of energy you have to worry about the big-bang - where everything suddenly appears.

      We don't yet have a good theory that includes quantum mechanics and gravity - and that seems to be central to all of these unknowns. Likely we will figure one out eventually.

      Most of the issues with quantum gravity occur at scales that are not accessible in the laboratory. Every experiment we can do is predicted by existing theories, and we can't reach the conditions where we expect those theories to fail.

    20. Re:Since when did unknown == paradox?? by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Indeed it can, but if speculation is all you do, if you don't try to attack your own ideas, then you're going to get off into the weirdness.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    21. Re:Since when did unknown == paradox?? by david_thornley · · Score: 2

      There are things called paradoxes in relativity, which tend to be people thinking in Newtonian terms part of the time.

      The twin paradox: Harold stays on Earth, while George (separated at birth) travels at relativistic speeds for a while and then turns around and comes back. Despite the fact that from George's point of view Harold and the Earth went away and came back, George is nevertheless younger. (Harold's using the same frame of reference all the time, being unaccelerated - and we ignore general relativity here, because its effects are minor. George uses two different reference frames, one going out in which Harold is younger, and one coming back where Harold is older, and changes between the two while turning around.)

      The pole-in-barn paradox: Fred has a twenty-foot pole, and is running at relativistic speeds towards a ten-foot-wide barn. From the barn observer, Fred's pole shrinks to ten feet, and thus fits into the barn, while Fred sees the barn shrink to five feet wide and his twenty-foot pole can't possibly fit. (Having the pole fit inside the barn means that its front end fits into the barn at the same time the back end does. With Special Relativity, "at the same time" isn't really meaningful, so Fred sees the front end of the pole at the far end of the barn before he sees the back end of the pole at the near end of the barn, while the barn cat sees the timing differently.)

      So, paradoxes happen when we're thinking about something in the wrong way. The current problem we've got is that we have two ways of looking at the Universe, both with very large amounts of precisely corroborating evidence, and at least one of those is the wrong way to look at certain things.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    22. Re:Since when did unknown == paradox?? by strikethree · · Score: 1

      The paradox is that energy is supposed to be conserved, but space has energy and is increasing.

      There is no paradox here. As matter increases, so does "empty space". The energy is an artifact of this separation of matter and space-time. Matter and space-time want to recombine. The real question here is why did matter and space-time disambiguate to begin with.

      --
      "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
  6. "Light drag?" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is there some reasons physicists have ruled out that photons simply lose energy through some mechanism as they propagate? And whatever this mechanism is (like dark matter) simply isn't observable with current technology at short distances, but becomes obvious at long distances?

    Or maybe dark matter IS visible, but only over long distances, and "cosmological red shift" is actually due to the photons interacting with dark matter?

    1. Re:"Light drag?" by Dastardly · · Score: 2

      This does happen, although I am not sure if it is seen in red shifts. It is definitely seen in the Cosmic Microwave Background where large cold spots are thought to be due to voids along the line of sight that the CMB photon traveled. I presume a similar effect would apply to any photon crossing that void.

    2. Re:"Light drag?" by megahurts.gr · · Score: 3, Informative

      I am not a physicist myself, but physics is a very interesting topic for me. A long time ago I theorized along these lines, and when I spoke about it with physicists, they told me that my hypothesis has already been considered, and it has a name, and that name is "tired light".

      See "tired light" on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      --
      This guide is definitive. Reality is frequently inacurate. (from THHGTTG)
    3. Re:"Light drag?" by Agent0013 · · Score: 1

      Upon reading this article and thinking about the red-shift I had a new thought that I was wondering about. If the space is expanding while the light is travelling through it, what says that the red-shift is from the movement of the original object and not the movement of expanding space underneath the light. Water waves would be shifted with both a moving wave generator and a stationary wave generator in a stream. The waves upstream would be compressed while the waves downstream would be lengthened. This would lead to greater red-shifts for further objects not because they are travelling faster away from us, but because they have spent more time in expanding space. Do we know that the expansion of space does not effect a change in the frequency of EM radiation?

      --

      -- ssoorrrryy,, dduupplleexx sswwiittcchh oonn.. -Quote found on actual fortune cookie.
    4. Re:"Light drag?" by megahurts.gr · · Score: 1

      but... but... that's precisely what is supposed to be happening according to the currently accepted models: the red shift is _not_ due to the galaxies actually moving apart in space, it is due to the space itself expanding between them, in combination with the fact that the speed of light remains constant despite the expanding space.

      Now, if space is expanding, then I could hold one end of a (long enough) yardstick standing on this galaxy, and you could hold the other end standing on another galaxy, despite the red shift, because the yardstick would be expanding together with the space between the galaxies. This essentially means that there is no way to detect the expansion of space in the physical world other than by studying light. Which means that if light behaves in some way that we do not yet understand, then it could very well be that there is no expansion taking place at all.

      The tired light hypothesis says forget that awfully exotic stuff about expansion of space, there is a much simpler explanation, everything is more or less stationary, nothing is expanding, and the red shift is due to some as of yet unknown property of light which reduces its frequency as it travels through space.

      --
      This guide is definitive. Reality is frequently inacurate. (from THHGTTG)
    5. Re:"Light drag?" by Agent0013 · · Score: 1

      The tired light theory is an interesting one, and I can see how it can fit well with observations. I like the tired light because it does seem to make the expanding universe less certain. Even the Big Bang becomes questionable and I see the CMBR as a possible detection of light that has given up the last of it's energy due to traveling too far.

      I was more thinking about red-shifting accumulating due to the distance from the object. They always mention that further objects are more red-shifted due to them moving away from us faster. But if the red-shift accumulates over the distance due to more and more red-shifting coming from the expansion of space itself, then that doesn't tell us speed of the distant object, just the distance. I guess perhaps I always misunderstood what they meant by the red-shift being due to the objects traveling away from us. It's kind of a subtle difference perhaps. Does the red-shift happen at the point of departure of the object that is moving away from us due to the expansion, or does the red-shift happen during the journey from source to destination. Now that I write it out the first scenario makes little sense as different destinations would need to see different red-shifting amounts. I guess it would be: a) red-shift is due to the difference in speed, or b) red-shift is due to space stretching out underneath the light waves as the travel. Obviously the speed would have an additional effect or you could never see something blue-shifted due to it's actual motion relative to us.

      --

      -- ssoorrrryy,, dduupplleexx sswwiittcchh oonn.. -Quote found on actual fortune cookie.
    6. Re:"Light drag?" by megahurts.gr · · Score: 1

      Right, it is both (a) and (b). The dominant kind of shift observed is red, and it has minor variations due to actual movement of galaxies in space, in addition to the (supposed) expansion of space.

      The Andromeda galaxy, which is the closest one to us, and therefore not very red-shifted to begin with, does in fact move towards us in space, (we will collide at some point in the very distant future,) and for this reason it is slightly blue-shifted.

      On the wikipedia entry for "Andromeda Galaxy" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A... the bar on the right hand side says "Redshift z = -0.001001 (minus sign indicates blueshift)"

      So, of course the tired light hypothesis does not deny that light undergoes a doppler effect; it just tries to explain why the red shift appears to increase as the distance increases.

      --
      This guide is definitive. Reality is frequently inacurate. (from THHGTTG)
  7. Paradoxen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Come on already! This isn't primary school. I learnt this when I was young.

  8. Slashdot, byebye! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Yet you continue to visit, click, AND post.On almost every article!

    How do you do it?

  9. Since when did unknown == paradox?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's also far from certain that the energy contained within the universe increases as the universe expands. In fact it would make more sense that it doesn't, and "thins out" as the result of expansion. (so the average energy per cubic megaparsec declines over time)

  10. avogadro's constant and particle density in space by lkcl · · Score: 1, Interesting

    throw-away comment, here :) i did a funny little bit of experimenting a couple of years back, when someone posted here an article about the density of deep space (the number of atoms per cubic metre) having been measured. anyway, remembering my o-level chemisty and i went, "hmm... that's interesting: i wonder if there's a relationship between that particle density and avogadro's constant.

    so... i went... density = 7 * 10e-26, avogadro's const = 6.023 * 10e23, multiply the two together you get 4.2154. just for fun take the cube-root and oo! you get 1.6153982. now, to within experimental uncertainty of the measurements made of the density of deep space vacuum, that number should instantly be recogniseable +/- a bit, as the golden mean ratio (1.618 etc etc).

    so we have a relationship - which has absolutely no quotes real quotes meaning whatsoever [ traditionally called "numerology" in a disparaging way in the physics community... ] between the density of particles in vacuum, avogadro's constant, and the golden mean ratio, in a formula that has very low kolmogorov complexity (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolmogorov_complexity). which, as i do not have the kinds of hang-ups that the physics community has about these kinds of things, i find to be... beautiful.

    and that's in and of itself enough for me. i don't care what the physicists say :)

    anyway, as this is slashdot, i thought i'd happily derail the conversation with a nice bit of random semi-related nonsense, and see if anyone notices...

  11. Warning: Another stupid medium.com link by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I really wish Slashdot would stop accepting their links

    1. Re:Warning: Another stupid medium.com link by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      /. is dead. I haven't seen a good hot grits or naked and petrified post in ages.

  12. it can always be by Revek · · Score: 1

    paradoctored

  13. because science by Swampash · · Score: 1

    Coming up with better explanations is what science is for.

    Summary: headline is sensationalist clickbait, Slashdot editors are whores, Netcraft confirms Slashdot is dying.

  14. Re:Slashdot, byebye! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    Yet you continue to visit, click, AND post.On almost every article!

    How do you do it?

    And you reply to your own post too...

    I know the answer, you are a robot, I mean, I am a robot, oh god.... NO CARRIER...

  15. If the universe is a simulation energy is variable by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 2, Interesting

    http://www.simulation-argument...

    But, that does not make it any less real-seeming to all of us being simulated...

    And of course, the universe simulator could be simulated, etc....

    It might be simulated turtles all the way down. :-)

    --
    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
  16. Maybe the created "energy" is really entropy by Burz · · Score: 2

    As entropy in the universe increases, so does the amount of space.

    1. Re:Maybe the created "energy" is really entropy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My waste-line concurs.

    2. Re:Maybe the created "energy" is really entropy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It makes a certain amount of sense. Think of gravity: gravity packs stuff together, so it kills entropy. And space around it. Hummm....

    3. Re:Maybe the created "energy" is really entropy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Packing stuff together doesn't inherently lower entropy, because it could also increase temperature. Things can cool off, but that involves a lot of radiating a lot of heat in the process. There is still questions about how this works with black holes, but it still looks like a similar situation with a lot of entropy being created.

  17. Re:Gravity is the weakest force by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Yep. This is the reason I check in with the 'electric universe' folks now and again, to see what their explanations of some of this stuff is. Not that I think they're the ones with correct theories, but the 'mainstream' scientists sure seem to be in love with gravity to explain everything.

    Oh, and if I hear another scientist go on and on about how theories should be "simple and beautiful" I shall vomit. The universe doesn't care what humans think is simple or beautiful. Frankly, the universe being an insanely complex clusterfuck would explain a lot.

  18. Solution to the "vacuum energy" problem by mdenham · · Score: 1

    The expansion of the universe is fueled by a continuous transition to lower-energy vacuum states. Unlike the normal "false vacuum" model, though, there are a lot of these lower-energy states, which become closer and closer together until they reach a limiting value.

    The graph of these states would probably look familiar - it's similar to the electron transitions for the hydrogen atom, only with the orbitals replaced with "time since the Big Bang". The net result matches the lower value of the vacuum energy... and there's the possibility that this also explains inflation as being equivalent to the transition between n=1 and n=2 (whereas we're currently at something on the order of n=10^35).

    Granted, there's no guarantee that I'm right (and in fact I'm probably not, since I have no formal training in cosmology), but it looks like a model that fits the current knowledge.

  19. Balderdash! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Slashdot editors aren't whores. Whores give a fuck.

    (yes, in return for remuneration; it's a humorous statement to make a satirical point, not intended for complete accuracy, ya pedantic pock-faced whoresons)

  20. not paradoxes by Khashishi · · Score: 1

    Those aren't paradoxes. So space is created. How is that a paradox? Did someone say space is not allowed to be created?
    So energy is created. That violates conservation of energy, but conservation of energy is simply a law that we formulated from experience, and later proved using Noether's theorem by assuming that the laws of physics are time-invariant. Well, it's not valid to extrapolate from our small-scale experiences to the universe, and the laws of physics probably aren't time-invariant at cosmological scales.
    Nobody really knows how to calculate the energy of the vacuum, and that's why we have to use renormalization. The 10^120 figure is really a very rough ballpark estimate using dimensional analysis. There's not any solid theory to back it up.

    1. Re:not paradoxes by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      There is a paradox in that the laws of physics simultaneously say that energy is being created and it can't be created.

      Well, it's not valid to extrapolate from our small-scale experiences to the universe, and the laws of physics probably aren't time-invariant at cosmological scales.

      And therein lies the source of the paradox: it arises because our understanding is incomplete.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
  21. Re:avogadro's constant and particle density in spa by DavidRawling · · Score: 1

    Noticing does not mean we care :).

    Karma -= 100...

  22. Energy is not conserved in General Relativity by As_I_Please · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It has been known for quite some time that energy is difficult to define rigorously in General Relativity. A good explanation can be found in this post by CalTech physicist Sean Carroll. Key point:

    The point is pretty simple: back when you thought energy was conserved, there was a reason why you thought that, namely time-translation invariance. A fancy way of saying “the background on which particles and forces evolve, as well as the dynamical rules governing their motions, are fixed, not changing with time.” But in general relativity that’s simply no longer true. Einstein tells us that space and time are dynamical, and in particular that they can evolve with time. When the space through which particles move is changing, the total energy of those particles is not conserved.

    As a simple example, imagine a photon traveling through an expanding universe in a region with no other matter or energy (dark or otherwise). The expansion of space stretches the wavelength of the photon (cosmological redshift, which is distinct from Doppler redshift), causing it to lose energy. The photon loses energy with nothing around it gaining. Energy is lost because spacetime itself is changing, so Noether's theorem doesn't apply.

    1. Re:Energy is not conserved in General Relativity by As_I_Please · · Score: 1

      Note that the linked blog post was in response to another Arxiv Blog article that makes the same mistake.

    2. Re:Energy is not conserved in General Relativity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Doesn't that itself suggests a possible resolution the paradox of an expanding universe vs conservation of energy? The amount of space increases, the density of vacuum energy is constant, so the amount of vacuum energy increases. But photons passing through the expanding space lose energy, so the total amount of energy could be conserved.

    3. Re:Energy is not conserved in General Relativity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      When the photon's wavelength is integrated over the entire, expanding volume, is the energy still non-conserved? Sure, the kinetic energy depends only on the wavelength, but doesn't the photon also have a gravitational field whose source (energy) now occupies more space? Is the associated gravitational energy the integrated deformation of the space-time in which it resides? The deformation density has decreased with decreased kinetic energy density, but the deformation now exists over a larger region of space-time.

    4. Re:Energy is not conserved in General Relativity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Energy is lost because spacetime itself is changing, so Noether's theorem doesn't apply.

      If you reverse time, both in the metric and the travel of the photon, you would get a photon that gains energy. There is still a time reversal symmetry there. Also if you treat the energy imbued by the creation of the universe as a form of potential energy, the photon is exchanging energy with that, just as a photon coming out of a gravity well red shifts.

    5. Re:Energy is not conserved in General Relativity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Question: Is there a difference in this calculation if you change "the universe is expanding" to "things inside the universe are getting smaller", and if so can you also give the answer?

      My line of thinking is that maybe the photon's energy is conserved, but its wavelength appears longer to us because our space is now smaller than the space/time where the photon was created.

      p.s. I never took any classes on relativity or quantum thingamawhatsits. Please don't bite my head off.

    6. Re:Energy is not conserved in General Relativity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, but see, because the space that the photon is in got bigger, so did the photon.
      The "lost" energy went into making the photon bigger.
      That's how it works with my lunch, why not with a photon?

    7. Re:Energy is not conserved in General Relativity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As a simple example, imagine a photon traveling through an expanding universe in a region with no other matter or energy (dark or otherwise). The expansion of space stretches the wavelength of the photon (cosmological redshift, which is distinct from Doppler redshift), causing it to lose energy. The photon loses energy with nothing around it gaining. Energy is lost because spacetime itself is changing, so Noether's theorem doesn't apply.

      The energy of the photon per wave remains the same. There's just more space per wave, so the energy is distributed over a longer distance.

    8. Re:Energy is not conserved in General Relativity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Regardless of how you want to try to mangle the concept in your head, the total energy of each photon has been observed to decrease, and nothing has suggested that the number of photons is increased.

    9. Re:Energy is not conserved in General Relativity by PJ6 · · Score: 1

      As a simple example, imagine a photon traveling through an expanding universe in a region with no other matter or energy (dark or otherwise). The expansion of space stretches the wavelength of the photon (cosmological redshift, which is distinct from Doppler redshift), causing it to lose energy. The photon loses energy with nothing around it gaining. Energy is lost because spacetime itself is changing, so Noether's theorem doesn't apply.

      I wonder if we could add a scale-invariant component, and make the lost energy just a property of measuring it in a non-inflating reference frame.

      Or, I should say, I wonder what contradictions that would lead to.

    10. Re:Energy is not conserved in General Relativity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There was no mangling on the GPs statement. Space expansion means two objects accelerate away, in this case, the photon and the observer. The Doppler effect determines the photon will always be seen as having less energy even when no such energy is lost (you accelerate away from the photon).

      The Doppler effect is well tested.

    11. Re:Energy is not conserved in General Relativity by As_I_Please · · Score: 1

      Consider the region of space that contains the photon. If each dimension of the universe double in size, then the photon loses half its energy. But, the vacuum energy increases by a factor of 8 (volume increases by 8 since space is 3 dimensional). This process can't keep energy constant.

      You can also reason that different photons will lose different amounts of energy depending on the energy they started with. There's nothing to keep these changing energies balanced with the vacuum energy in expanding or contracting space.

    12. Re:Energy is not conserved in General Relativity by As_I_Please · · Score: 1

      Read the blog post I linked to above. There's no way to consistently assign an energy density to spacetime curvature. Quoting Prof. Carroll:

      [U]nlike with ordinary matter fields, there is no such thing as the density of gravitational energy. The thing you would like to define as the energy associated with the curvature of spacetime is not uniquely defined at every point in space. So the best you can rigorously do is define the energy of the whole universe all at once, rather than talking about the energy of each separate piece. (You can sometimes talk approximately about the energy of different pieces, by imagining that they are isolated from the rest of the universe.) Even if you can define such a quantity, it’s much less useful than the notion of energy we have for matter fields.

    13. Re:Energy is not conserved in General Relativity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When you start talking about the energy per wave of a photon, you're mangling things up pretty good, as all that matters is the total energy of the photon, which does decrease, and in an expanding metric, can decrease as it travels and not just from the Doppler shift of the source.

    14. Re:Energy is not conserved in General Relativity by As_I_Please · · Score: 1

      True, in a contracting universe, photons gain energy. Noether's theorem says that energy conservation is a consequence of time translation symmetry (t -> t + constant), not reversal symmetry (t -> -t), so conservation of energy isn't required. The "energy imbued by the creation of the universe" seems ill-defined. If you believe Hawking and Krauss, this energy is zero.

    15. Re:Energy is not conserved in General Relativity by As_I_Please · · Score: 1

      There is no Doppler effect for a single photon, unless that photon is emitting other photons.

    16. Re:Energy is not conserved in General Relativity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Instead of assuming the expansion of space causes the photon to lose energy, consider the reverse causality: the photon is causing the expansion of space, and the photon is giving up energy in the process. Ridiculous? Are you sure?
      Assuming a particular causality locks one into a specific way of understanding of the universe, and we have determined that the predominant existing view has some problems...

  23. Physicists don't like to admit ignorance? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Some people don't like to admit what they don't know. That includes some physicists.

    Then I did a google search and realized it was just my own ignorance,
    here's a huge list of unanswered questions on wikipedia:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unsolved_problems_in_physics

  24. Seems... facile by fyngyrz · · Score: 2

    How can we definitively tell if the vacuum over there has the same energy density as the vacuum over here?

    Further, how can we tell if the energy we think we find in vacuum here isn't energy that arises from particulate contamination? Or, for that matter (ha) is coming from somewhere else? Has someone managed to (a) create a perfect vacuum and (b) measure its energy and (c) determine that whatever was measured as appearing at X, definitely hadn't disappeared from all the possible Ys? Somehow, I doubt it. If for no other reason than our access to some of the other Y (say, around Andromeda) is... limited. As well as non-contemporaneous -- if something disappeared from that region, to appear here, we wouldn't have any indication it had happened for about 2.5 million years. And even then, our ability to measure vacuum precisely at that distance... not so good.

    My (admittedly not very deep) understanding of vacuum is that it is defined by a lack of content, and that a perfect vacuum would be defined by a perfect lack of content -- and were that simplistic idea correct, then I don't see why how much perfect vacuum there is has any bearing at all upon the total amount of energy.

    And, if vacuum is indeed empty when perfect, but we think there is energy detected in what we consider a perfect vacuum, then perhaps we're simply misinterpreting the goings-on within an imperfect vacuum. Perhaps there is more to get rid of than the molecules and particles we know of at present.

    Or, perhaps space is infinite and at least somewhat plastic to start with, and our situation (going with the idea that the space we can observe seems to be expanding) is more like adding a thimble of water to a planetary ocean (let the ocean conceptually be infinite for the sake of an example.) Perhaps space over there is contracting, while space over here is expanding.

    My own position is that any cosmological proposal that includes the phrase "arose from nothing" or similar is probably better filed under astrology until actual evidence is found of the idea -- not possible precursors or echos, but an actual example of what is being described. We seem to be pretty clear on the idea that matter and energy are essentially interchangeable, and we have no experimental data that proves stuff arises from non-stuff, so at least at this point, I see no reason to take an assertion of "arose from nothing" seriously.

    --
    I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    1. Re:Seems... facile by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The energy of the vacuum HERE would be decreasing over time, and so far there is no evidence that's the case.

      And the thing is, there is no such thing as "perfect vacuum".
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_foam

      Also, more on the original question:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_energy
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pair_production

    2. Re:Seems... facile by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      How can we definitively tell if the vacuum over there has the same energy density as the vacuum over here?

      Measurements of expansion rate from distances and from the CMB closely match models that have a constant energy density per unit volume. That is about as simple as it gets for the moment. Until there is good justification for why we would expect the energy to be different at different places, whether from large scale measurements, or theories about small scale things like QFT, there is no basis to assume things are different. But there is always the possibility things are more complicated than they seem.

    3. Re:Seems... facile by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      There's also no evidence that energy is being created.

      This!

      Given how quantum non-locality appears to work, we can in some cases be forced to consider that the energy in question is distributed until it becomes "not distributed" by some process that collapse it's superposition. Examination by most physical measurement processes does this.

      Even though Einstein abhorred the implications of quantum theory, his own general approach to working out relativistic theory stands, which is to base our examinations of the universe on 2 things:

      1- That which we observe and can confirm by experiment and
      2- The implications of what we observe and can confirm by experiment which then must be observed and confirmed by experiment.

      I do agree that there is a point where each explanation ceases to function to explain the whole, newtonian physics functions to explain how macroscopic objects behave to a certain precision and it breaks down when the curvature of spacetime is altered by extreme amounts of mass in a small place or limited masses being accelerated to such speeds that they require descriptions of how they alter spacetime by effect to be described properly. This description breaks down when we attempt to explain objects existing at the sub atomic level and a whole other set of rules come into play that exist in between the frames of the macroscopic and relativistic linear framework we are used to using to describe things. Beyond this we are at the point where we do not have the tools yet to perform experiments we need to test the implications of the things which we have observed at that level.

      Sometimes analogies can be helpful, sometimes they can just confuse the issue. In the case of expanding space, I prefer to think of it as something analogous to plate tectonics, We know the Earth is not expanding, but we know that the floor of the Atlantic ocean is getting wider and wider across geologic time scales, matter is not being created, but the distance between the coastlines of the eastern United States and Western Europe gets a little larger each century. When considering vacuum energy I think of the plate tectonics analogy and remember that even though it seems like the vacuum energy should be becoming more vacant, the implications of what we observe in the Hadron collider confirms that when taken altogether, the total amount of energy in the universe balances out to zero and comparing different sized slices of this pie to one another confuse the issue.

    4. Re:Seems... facile by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

      "This!" is not needed. Your post would have been perfectly fine without the inclusion of that word.

    5. Re:Seems... facile by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How can we definitively tell if the vacuum over there has the same energy density as the vacuum over here?

      Well if it wasn't, you'd have a vacuum vacuum, and nature abhors a vacuum vacuum.

    6. Re:Seems... facile by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I found it convenient.
      When a poster starts with "This!" I know that he is in total agreement with previous post and I can skip his wall of text.
      No need for a TL;DR, just read the previous post.

      Similar to when a poster tries to argue his point with "PERIOD!" or "End of discussion!". It shows that the poster is a retard that doesn't have a point so you can skip the rest of the post there and move on to someone who actually has a point to make.

    7. Re:Seems... facile by fyngyrz · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The energy of the vacuum HERE would be decreasing over time,

      You can't assume that everything everywhere behaves the same. You can't assume that energy drawn from one location will show up as a deficit in another (you find running water in the street's gutter... you learn Joe's pool is draining. Assuming Mark's pool is also draining doesn't follow.) You can't measure anywhere but (very) locally, which also means you can only measure data very near temporally -- and so you really have no bloody idea what is going on without resting your conclusion on assumptions made entirely free of supporting data.

      What you're claiming is equivalent to saying you know exactly what's going on on a planet orbiting some star in Andromeda because you've done some observations as to what is going on here. Evidence is utterly insufficient to your claim.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    8. Re:Seems... facile by fyngyrz · · Score: 2

      Nah, I just bought one from Dyson. Works great!

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    9. Re: Seems... facile by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As a conceptual, there being something being at position x,y,z, means it is not a perfect vacuum at that position.there is something there. And it is measurable. Whether it be foam, or a molecule of poison.
      And there is no way one would see the deflation of the universe. And when it becomes obvious, it would be too late. This more fits the rhetorical questions, which as why do we not see the shrinkage of the sun.

    10. Re:Seems... facile by mattpalmer1086 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      IANAP, but my admittedly also very shallow understanding, is that when we're talking about the energy of the "vaccuum", we mean "energy associated with space itself".

      A vaccuum is typically defined by the absence of matter in a volume of space (but not necessarily light or other energy). But let's exclude those too - there is no matter or electromagnetic radiation at all.

      Even with those exclusions, at a fundamental level space appears to be a seething maelstrom of quantum particles popping in and out of existence. There seems to be some energy associated with "empty" space.

        Some people posit that the vaccuum (i.e. space as we know it) may be "unstable" - that the particular energy it possesses could be lower than it is - and that we're just caught on a local bump in the energy landscape. If the vaccuum ever "fell off" that bump to a lower level, it would apparently spread at the speed of light across the entire universe from wherever it started, destroying everything that currently exists, and leaving behind... I don't know what. More vaccuum, but with a much lower energy associated with it, and with lots of new matter and energy created by the release of the vaccuum energy. Probably.

      Anway, happy for a real physicist to correct me on some or all of the above - that's just my very lay understanding of what is meant by vaccuum energy.

    11. Re:Seems... facile by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can't measure anywhere but (very) locally,

      You ignore all of the posts discussing why we have evidence that it is the same everywhere...

    12. Re:Seems... facile by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >popping in and out of existence.
      So many scientists state that idea, instead of "popping in and out of measurability". That in itself is a mystery.

    13. Re:Seems... facile by lonecrow · · Score: 1

      Perhaps the energy is being diluted as it expands. But since the measuring stick being used to measure it is part of the system that is expanding/diluting, it appears constant.

    14. Re:Seems... facile by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      Yes, I do. Because we have no such evidence; we can't make the measurements it would take to get said evidence.

      You are confusing assumption with evidence. They are not the same.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    15. Re: Seems... facile by MickeydotFinn · · Score: 1

      Is it that Sphere model I keep hearing about?

    16. Re:Seems... facile by Methadras · · Score: 2

      Well, there are Cassimir effect experiments done in a vacuum that show energy is coming from somewhere. Someplace we can't see. Is it from repository universes that contain the building block materials for this universe that leak through the aether/ether of space? Is that what dark matter/energy really is? Is it's radiation the fundamental particles we see now? I don't know, but what I do know is that it isn't facile.

    17. Re:Seems... facile by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are confusing assumption with evidence. They are not the same.

      Just because you choose to ignore some of the biggest results and extensive work for the last decade or two in astrophysics doesn't mean others are the ones confused. At best you're being disingenuous going around claiming there has been and can be no evidence. It isn't insightful to be willfully ignorant of a topic, then try to attack straw men.

    18. Re: Seems... facile by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dark matter and energy are just the other 8 dimensions we can't access.

      Noob

    19. Re:Seems... facile by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      You have not refuted any point I made.

      What is the energy level of a cubic foot of space exactly 1 light year past the furthest star on a line directly away from us that is still technically in Andromeda? Presuming you could supply that information (you can't) can you assure me that said cubic foot is in no way contributing to the particular flux of a cubic foot of space one light year the other way? (you can't.)

      So the delusion you're carrying around that you know what's going on and are able to definitively say so in such a way as to pooh-pooh my questions is unmasked, and all your complaints resolve to nothing.

      I'll be blunt: There are NO "biggest results" in astrophysics that can answer those questions. Consequently, any answers you claim to have in that regard are, at best, evidence-free supposition.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    20. Re: Seems... facile by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      Lemme look... on the vortex container (you know, where all the dirt swirls around), it says "US Mobius Glass, 4th dimension containment division. Certified for virtual particles only."

      That help any?

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    21. Re:Seems... facile by negablade · · Score: 1

      How can we definitively tell if the vacuum over there has the same energy density as the vacuum over here?

      This comes from measurement of the fine structure constant. The virtual particles created as a result of the vacuum energy interact with electrons, causing small changes in the elementary change of the electron, and int he electromagnetic coupling between charged particles. This effect is accounted for in QED, and has been observed in the spectra of Hydrogen as difference in the energy levels of 2S1/2 and 2P1/2 orbitals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamb_shift). Measurement of the fine structure constant from atomic spectra allows us to measure if the elementary electric charge has changed over time or at different locations in the universe, essentially a remote measurement of the uniformity of vacuum energy.

      Some measurements do suggest that the fine structure constant has changed over time, or that it isn't uniform throughout space over galactic scales. Indeed, there is no reason why it should be. That said, I would be surprised if the inhomogeneity is balanced by the accelerating expansion rate of the universe. Hence the problem of apparent increase in energy and violation of conservation of energy.

    22. Re:Seems... facile by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What is the energy level of a cubic foot of space exactly 1 light year past the furthest star on a line directly away from us that is still technically in Andromeda? Presuming you could supply that information (you can't) can you assure me that said cubic foot is in no way contributing to the particular flux of a cubic foot of space one light year the other way? (you can't.)

      You mean like high resolution maps of hydrogen fine splitting that have been done of the Andromeda galaxy going back to the 60s? They might not be down to the 1 light year resolution, but the fine structure constant is closely connected to vacuum energy, and is heavily used in astronomy.

      So the delusion you're carrying around that you know what's going on and are able to definitively say so in such a way as to pooh-pooh my questions is unmasked, and all your complaints resolve to nothing.

      No results in science is definite, and if you are seeing that in previous comments, your the one inserting that mentality. What is definite, is that certain measurements have been taken, even if there is possibility the results are wrong or misinterpreted. You're the delusional one for going around saying that no such measurements exist, and further seem to be trying your hardest to avoid learning what they are, even when other comments start spoon feeding it to you. You seem more interested in looking smart than being smart, by choosing comments to respond to that tried to be more terse and lack substance, instead of engaging any of the actual substance in replies to your comments.

    23. Re:Seems... facile by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Has someone managed to (a) create a perfect vacuum and (b) measure its energy

      (a) No. How would you exclude the (solar, galactic and cosmic background) neutrinos, for example?

      (b) There are two different types of "energy" here. There's mass-energy, which is the energy of objects in a frame in which they are measured to be at rest (i.e., having uniformly no momentum), which is "E" in Special Relativity, and then there's the energy imputed to objects which are perturbed out of uniform motion (or having uniformly no momentum), which for the purposes of answering your question without much mathematics, an observer-dependent value that can be obtained with the mathematics of General Relativity; this value would typically be called energy-momentum.

      True vacuum has no mass-energy. Whether true vacuum is physical or not is a subject of research, but that goes to your question (a) above. However, intergalactic space is a very very good approximation of vacuum, as at scales of several cm^3, there is essentially no mass-energy. Even interplanetary space here has only a scattering of neutrinos and photons through each of the small volumes in the solar system at any given instant, and basically nothing with high mass-energy. If that were not the case, we would see very different orbital mechanics, and different behaviours of things like laser ranging and communications with space probes far from earth.

      However, the metric expansion of space shows that where there is plenty of apparently good practical vacuum, there is a large perturbation of the inertial motions of large objects (galactic clusters, for example). A workable explanation is that there is non-particle-content massless and non-radiative momentum inherent in every small volume of vacuum that does not dilute away as it causes large objects to move away from one another as if space is undergoing a metric expansion.

      There is no field theory for that energy-momentum, but it's an area of active research (mostly phenomenological, because it's so little energy per cm^3 of space that we have no hope of creating it in a lab any time soon).

      However, there is a conservation of energy-momentum in General Relativity that balances the motions of self-gravitating objects in expanding space, so while the conservation of energy on its own is dramatically violated, the extra energy leads to extra momentum imparted to objects in the expanding space (such as photons, neutrinos, whole galaxies, etc.), so overall energy-momentum is constant. A theory reasonably describing the mechanism in detail has yet to be discovered.

  25. Re:avogadro's constant and particle density in spa by iluvcapra · · Score: 5, Informative

    Even professional physicists like some good numerology sometimes.

    Also, just so we're clear, you took a number e-26, multiplied it by a number e+23, and you ended up with a number e+0?

    --
    Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
  26. YIC by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

    It might be simulated turtles all the way down.

    It's virtual turtles, you insensitive clod!

    --
    I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
  27. Red Shift perhaps not due to expansion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What if it isn't expansion but the weak interaction over vast differences between light and matter that it passes? ie: accumulated gravitational effects of near misses with other particles.

  28. Re:avogadro's constant and particle density in spa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Even professional physicists like some good numerology sometimes.

    Also, just so we're clear, you took a number e-26, multiplied it by a number e+23, and you ended up with a number e+0?

    Ah, I see what you did there: you lost a factor of 100.

    I notice that 100*0.04215 = 42

  29. Units. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Units. I could just as easily started with the density = 1 or density = pi. Units matter, your conclusions don't work in ALL units. Then taking the cube root of a number just for fun? Do you mean to say "just to get the answer I want?" What is the point of this series of calculations?

  30. Re:avogadro's constant and particle density in spa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Proportional displacement. If space/time is expanding, is it also trying to displace the matter that occupies it? In other words, is gravity a pull, or a push! Perhaps it's a relative to the distance between space/time and matter that determines which supersedes what; meaning, matter coalesces into galaxies, but with enough space in between galaxies, they push each other away?

  31. Re:avogadro's constant and particle density in spa by msauve · · Score: 1

    It's "new math." You don't have to show your work.

    --
    "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
  32. Re: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Zero is far more plausible than infinity.

  33. Re:Gravity is the weakest force by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Maybe check in with actual scientists from time to time again. EU folks spend so much time talking about mainstream scientists instead of science, and yet get that blatantly wrong. Astrophysics isn't just about gravity, as there are whole courses, books, journals, conferences, and sessions at more general topic conferences dealing with plasma physics in space. There was even an article just a couple days ago on Slashdot that directly talked about the effect of plasma in intergalactic space on light signals, and gave enough context (or just look at some of the comments) to learn more about the topic and figure out exactly to what limits those effects are noticeable vs. inconsequential.

  34. How did this get modded up? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    I remember something like this vaguely coming up in a comment before on Slashdot, and I hope it was not you making the same mistake, as comments spelled out in those cases clearly that it was a case of density * avogadro's constant / number of atoms gives you the average atomic mass, which is pretty close to 1 for deep space.

    so... i went... density = 7 * 10e-26, avogadro's const = 6.023 * 10e23, multiply the two together you get 4.2154. just for fun take the cube-root and oo! you get 1.6153982

    No, you multiply those two numbers together, and you get 0.042, which is also a meaningless value because you now have kg/m^3/mol... and it is not like deep space is anywhere near a constant density, as there is a large variation in density and temperature (read about warm intergalactic medium vs. hot intergalactic medium).

    I don't know how this got modded up. Not saying it should have been modded down, but you just took two random numbers, one of which doesn't even have that deep of a connection to space as you imply, and multiplied them together incorrectly, and tried to draw vague conclusions from that.

    1. Re:How did this get modded up? by david_thornley · · Score: 2

      A mole is a certain number of particles, not a physical unit in its own right. Multiplying the density times avogadro's constant (assuming you're allowing for molecular weights, which is about 1 gram for a mole of monoatomic hydrogen) is the right way to find the number of particles.

      Of course, (a) OP got his or her decimal place screwed up, (b) density does vary widely, and (c) given an arbitrary number, if you try enough ways to manipulate it, you're going to come up with something reasonably close to an interesting number eventually.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    2. Re:How did this get modded up? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Multiplying the density times avogadro's constant (assuming you're allowing for molecular weights, which is about 1 gram for a mole of monoatomic hydrogen) is the right way to find the number of particles.

      Only if your density is expressed as number of mole per volume. Most densities are expressed as mass per unit volume, or number of particles per unit volume. Multiplying either of those by Avogadro's constant does not get you the number of particles, especially when the density given looks like it was in kg/m^3. If the density is in terms of moles, then there is no problem with using the formalism treating moles as a unit.

    3. Re:How did this get modded up? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Avogadro's number (along with molecular weight) is precisely what you need to convert between mass per unit volume and number of particles per unit volume. For monoatomic hydrogen, multiplying grams per unit volume by it gives you the number of particles per unit volume pretty precisely. A mole of particles is a certain number of them, not a unit in itself.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    4. Re:How did this get modded up? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      multiplying grams per unit volume by it gives you the number of particles per unit volume pretty precisely

      And the original post was multiplying a number that is either wrong, or was in kilograms per cubic meter. Which is exactly why you need to pay attention to units, and explicitly include your 1 g/mol molecular weight if you're likely to mess up units.

      A mole of particles is a certain number of them, not a unit in itself.

      A mole is a unit of measure under the SI system. It is not an exact number of particles as currently defined. Treating it as a unit works out perfectly, and helps keep track of measurements and constants in fields that frequently flip between molar and per mass quantities. The same way you can sloppily treat radians as a unitless value or treat it as a unit to keep rotational vs. linear quantities separate in a consistent sense.

  35. Re:avogadro's constant and particle density in spa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    WTF? I know Slashdot really likes to mod people up to +5 when even when they get basic physics and science wrong, but when their premise is a basic multiplication error you should be able to catch without a calculator? If it is one thing if seeing numbers in a post "excites" you, but go somewhere else if you are aroused by wrong numbers (e.g. rule 43).

  36. Re: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Zero is far more plausible than infinity.

    The trouble with that statement is that it never reaches either infinity or zero, it is an asymptotic thing not a linear thing.

  37. Another posibility... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Maybe the universe is not expanding but instead matter is shrinking.

  38. Re:Gravity is the weakest force by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    At the very short distances, of the order of Planck's length, it is likely to be the strongest. Which is probably one of the reasons why efforts to quantize gravity are doomed to fail.

  39. Back to the 1920's? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    When hubble was making his observations, there were a whole series of alternative proposals to explain spectral redshift. To the best of my knowledge, these have all been abandoned, but a viable alternative to expansion wraps up many of these paradoxes, and honestly, makes the universe much less depressingly overcomplicated.

  40. Red shift by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have often wondered, what if it's all wrong ?? What if red shift does NOT equal distance or speed of expansion ??

    What if light 'ages', and loses energy, and hence undergoes a non doppler red shift ? Why do cosmologists say this kind of thing is impossible or stupid, when they can't prove it either way ?

    Do black holes really exist, or is it just an asymptote within the formula which allows (theoretically) it to occur ?

    1. Re:Red shift by megahurts.gr · · Score: 1

      This has already been mentioned in a comment above, look for the title "Light drag?".
      A theory of this kind has existed since 1929. See "tired light" on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      --
      This guide is definitive. Reality is frequently inacurate. (from THHGTTG)
  41. Like how blowing up a balloon creates more rubber by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    and what is up with magnets?

  42. Alright, alright, alright... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'll bet its that damned Matthew McConnaughey again, always starting shit from another dimension.

  43. maybe the universe is not expanding and by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We just don't understand everything about blue shift as much as we think we do?

  44. splosions by jeoin · · Score: 1

    seems to me that any time i have seen an explosion there has been a large bubble or series of bubbles, and a bunch of instant energy just heading out.

    --
    Jeoin
  45. Dark Energy is creating space-time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think what is called Dark Energy maybe some kind of particle that creates space-time cells when it decays.
    If so that means expansion of the Universe must stop when it runs out in distant future and also means there is no problem with conservation of energy.

    Currently there are observations going on to determine amount of Dark Energy billions of years ago in the Universe.
    I think they will find it to be much higher than today.
    Also from that data it maybe possible to calculate when expansion of the Universe must stop.

  46. Re:Slashdot, byebye! by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

    OP says "paradox" but the issues discussed in the paper are not strictly paradoxes, just contradictions. There is a difference.

    If you say it's black and I say it's white, that's not a paradox but a contradiction. If one theory says it's red and another theory says it's green, again that's not paradox but mere contradiction.

  47. I know the answer! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    God dun it /s

  48. Three fundamental paradoxes by govett · · Score: 1

    * Why does something exist rather than not? * What is time? * Why do people laugh at Don Rickles?

    1. Re:Three fundamental paradoxes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1. Because of the Bayes' theorem, in specific, the probability of an event happening given that it happened is always 1

      2. The stuff you just wasted

      3. 42?

  49. Torus rather than sphere by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If the universe is torus(donut) rather than a spheroid then the bit in the middle can get bigger without creating a vacuum.

    Inflation solved, you're welcome.

  50. Re:Slashdot, byebye! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    But if your theory says it should be black but your theory has an underlying assumption of being white, that is a paradox, not merely a contradiction.

    Sadly, generally accepted cosmology theory is a mishmash of general relativity and quantum mechanics which are theories that contradict each other on some predictions. For example FLRW from general relativity predicts the existence of a cosmological constant or some sort of dark energy and suggests that a universe that is expanding at the currently observed rate has a range of values: let's call it black, but cosmology relies on a data from quantum mechanics which given other observations suggests these constants have a completely different range of values orders of magnitude different: let's call it white.

    Sure it's two different theories GR and QM that disagree, but oddly, cosmology theory is a mishmash of the two and thus is more paradoxial than particle physics which knows that GR and QM disagree at small scales about gravity yet are hopeful for a GUT (grand unified theory) at some point to make testable predictions. Most cosmology assumptions aren't awaiting a GUT and you might even say they are effectively embracing the contradicting predictions of GR and QM and blindly marching on.

  51. What if... by kefalonia · · Score: 1

    ...the universe is not expanding, but the observers instead are in an "apparent shrinking" process, which is only manifesting itself in the form of current observations?
    Does that fly in the face of what is presently known?

    Don't shoot the messenger, there is no physicist anywhere around here, just a thought challenger ;-)

  52. The end of both QM and GR? by jandersen · · Score: 1

    I think it is time to revise the foundations of both our great theories, quantum mechanics and general relativity. This has become more and more evident in the recent decade, but it has been obvious almost from the beginning, since the two theories have been known to be incompatible already since the Solvay conference, if not before, and I think I can see some signs that efforts are being made to move away not only from GR, but also from QM.

    The big problem is of course the inescapeable success of both theories; we have yet to discover a clear example of a contradiction of either theory. To my mind, this suggests that it is necessary to be willing try to go beyond the traditional interpretations of the fundamentals of both. There has already for many years been massive efforts to try to modify GR to be more 'quantum', which have not really brought anything obvious to light, so perhaps it would be worth trying to revisit the foundations of QM? Basic tenets like the collapse of the wave-function and similar concepts have always struck me as far too glib to be real explanations. I think it is perfectly reasonable to expect better than that, something that somehow feels more convincing. Not necessarily simple or intuitive in the naive sense, but convincing. Something like the original explanation for Heisenberg's indeterminacy: that because we observe by means of particles, that are actually waves, there is a limit to how precise our observation can be. Please note, I'm claiming that this is the correct explanation, but it illustrates my point: it feels right because we feel we understands the way waves work, and we can perform calculations on much a finer scale than the observation by means of waves permits.

    I think a lot could probably be resolved by understanding more clearly the basics of QM; all the things that feel too much like glib assumptions, questions like what is a particle in terms of physical space (declaiming that it is 'the wave-function' or similar just sidesteps the issue), and what is time (talking about entropy involves a circular argument, IMO) and others. As you can see, I have stated these two in terms that have some bearing on GR; that is not by accident - I think GR is fundamentally more correct than QM.

    1. Re:The end of both QM and GR? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think a lot could probably be resolved by understanding more clearly the basics of QM; all the things that feel too much like glib assumptions, questions like what is a particle in terms of physical space (declaiming that it is 'the wave-function' or similar just sidesteps the issue), and what is time (talking about entropy involves a circular argument, IMO) and others. As you can see, I have stated these two in terms that have some bearing on GR; that is not by accident - I think GR is fundamentally more correct than QM.

      Welcome to string theory, among other possibilities.

    2. Re:The end of both QM and GR? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      People have been trying to revise the foundations of those theories. The problem is that, while we know they're incompatible, it's apparently really hard to come up with a practical experiment where GR says one thing and QM says another. Given the lack of experimental evidence, about all we can do is come up with ideas on how to make them work together (like string theory), see if they match what we already know, and try to figure out how to get testable predictions from them. The real problem is that we can already account for pretty much everything we've managed to observe, just in contradictory ways. Making more observations is getting harder and harder.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    3. Re:The end of both QM and GR? by jandersen · · Score: 1

      Making more observations is getting harder and harder.

      But that, in a way, is why I think it is necessary to start looking again at some of the things we haven't really got a good enough definition of. I remember Einstein worked at some attempt at defining what a particle is, but I forget which paper; that is the kind of things we need a better understanding of, is my feeling. I think it has always been obvious that 0-dimensional particles are a shortcut, a convenient way of not adrdressing the problem you don't yet have, and the same goes for things like charges and fields - I don't think they are really fundamental properties, only placeholders for an underlying reality that we have yet to discover.

      Alas, all I can do is offer speculation, and probably not all that good either. But how about, if one wished to define something like an abstraction with particle like properties, but based purely on geometry? And since this is pure speculation, we put no restraint on dimensionality and make no assumptions about whether the geometry is particularly simple; whether it is necessary to hold on to smoothness in the mathematical sense, I'm not sure. To sum up, this might be a universe with many dimensions - all the way up to infinity, even - and the geometry might be chaotic (as in chaos theory) or even 'rough' (ie. a non-differential manifold ~ of varying dimensions). Could a 'particloid' be defined as some sort of localised, crinkly geometry, something that can't easily stretch out and fade away? A whirlpool in the turbulent geometry?

      If one were to carry the comparison to turbulence a bit further, could one construct a sort of 'dimension-eating' mechanism involving whirlpools? If you think about wirlpools in turbulent water, they can seem to form 'networks' or structures that seen from a distance appear 2-dimensional; so at lower resolutions they approximate a simpler geometry which seems smoother and of lower dimension. Just idle speculation, I suspect, but one day, when I am tired of working, perhaps I will spend some time on this.

    4. Re:The end of both QM and GR? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You keep throwing out ideas that sound like the direction String Theory took. Although it is hard to be sure, as using words is a lot less precise than putting things down to a formal definition using math.

  53. Stupidest goddamn summary I've ever read by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There is absolutely nothing that says the energy of the universe must increase just because the volume increases. Total energy in the universe is constant, but the energy DENSITY decreases with volume. This is the concept of "heat death" due to expansion of the universe. Energy concentrated in lower volumes (stars) created by converting potential energy (gravity) into heat (fusion) eventually dissipates (law of thermodynamics). As the universe expands (volume increases) so does entropy as the energy AND mass density of the universe decrease. Lower mass density means new stars are less likely to form, and no new energy is being created. Voila, eventual heat death as there are no longer any means to concentrate energy into a small space.

    The universe continues expanding and the temperature of the universe falls as the energy density decreases.

    Why the fuck is this so hard for these people to understand?

    1. Re:Stupidest goddamn summary I've ever read by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is absolutely nothing that says the energy of the universe must increase just because the volume increases.

      If by "absolutely nothing" you mean both the current best cosmological theory and the best theory of fundamental particles, and the observations that back up those theories... The current best theory explaining accelerating expansion rate observed uses an energy per unit volume that grows with with volume. Quantum field theory, and the fundamental particle physics based on that, shows that there can be energy associated with space empty of particles, something confirmed by experiments in indirect ways. However, as the TFA talks about, the numbers from these two ends disagree, but I guess you didn't read that if you still say "nothing" says anything along those lines.

      This is the concept of "heat death" due to expansion of the universe.

      And heat death is no longer the expected outcome of the universe as far as we know, for 20 years now. Instead, something like the Big Rip might be the logical conclusion from current models and observations.

      Why the fuck is this so hard for these people to understand?

      Why is it so hard for people realize they are decades out of date and don't know what they are talking about before they post on the internet?

  54. Statistical proof for turtles all the way down by robi5 · · Score: 1

    What's science's answer to this one?

    1. Any sufficiently advanced civilisation can create a simulation (or more) on a grand scale.
    2. In a simulated world, intelligence and construction may arise, eventually leading to sufficiently advanced simulated civilisations
    3. (... after some thousands of recursions, also recognising that there is plenty of 'time' for that because time is an internal variable of the universe in question...)

    The big Q:

    What is the likelihood that in the vast tree of simulated universes, we are sitting at the root?

    Could it be that as a simulated civilisation advances, and invents the microscope and the telescope, and intelligent species proliferate, the simulatING civilisation has to throw more and more hardware at the problem? Or has to invent physics on the go? E.g. pre-Newton and pre-radiotelescopes, a Newtonian world would have perfectly worked, from the viewpoint of the humans, with 'rendered' stars; pre-microscope, maybe bacteria etc. didn't need to exist. The simulator just simulated some sickness or reaction. When the loop tightened, they had to invent something.

    Maybe science stops when there is enough evidence that some things just can't reconcile with one another, or when more and more investment is needed for less and less impactful findings (bosons, very remote galaxies etc.). Maybe a team of scientists one level up are playing pranks or feeling creative. And some other scientists tie their hands and just start some cellular automaton to see where it leads to.

    Isn't thinking this the equivalent of the geocentric or heliocentric world view?

    1. Re:Statistical proof for turtles all the way down by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ob-HHGG:

      There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable.

      There is another theory, which states that this has already happened.

    2. Re:Statistical proof for turtles all the way down by As_I_Please · · Score: 1

      This depends on the possible quality and size of a universe simulation. Is it possible to simulate the entirety of a universe using only a finite subset of that universe?

      If yes, then there are (at maximum) an infinite number of simulated universes and and infinite number of recursively simulated universes. Thus the probability of us being the root/real universe is zero ("of measure zero" if you ask a mathematician). Perhaps the holographic principle comes into play to allow the entire universe to be simulated without using the resources of the entire universe.

      If no, then there can be only a finite number of simulations in the observable universe. Also, each of the simulated universes is a smaller and/or less-precise version of the simulating universe. In this case, there are (at maximum) a finite number of simulated universes and a finite number of recursively simulated universes capable of hosting intelligent life (a cellular automata with only one cell could hardly be called intelligent). In this scenario, there is a non-zero probability that we live in the root/real universe.

      I lean towards no, but I don't have any evidence, just a bias for thinking myself real.

  55. Re:Gravity is the weakest force by Pope+Raymond+Lama · · Score: 1

    Still, as they find slowly their way through what Plasma in space can achieve, mainstream science is blinded by Gravity only suppositions turned into "reality" with an increasingly set of fudge factors. TFA just list a small number of them. But talk someone on the "mainstream" - including just self-presumed scientifically educated persons that the Big Bang perhaps did not take place, and point to the political and social movements inside Science that led to its conformation, and you are as an "heretic" as someone who tries to tell a fundamentalist Christiant that Hell or Heaven may not be the way he have been told.

    --
    -><- no .sig is good sig.
  56. Re:Grant Grabbing Bullshit vs. History of Science by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is this just grant grabbing bullshit? Confuse your funders so much, that they hand out cash, because whatever you are pushing is really sounds so complicated that it must be worthy.

    Funding decisions, at least in the US and UK systems, are made based on reviews by other scientists in similar fields, some of which have self-interest reasons to call out what they are reviewing as BS if they can and it helps make their own projects get funded instead.

  57. Modern cosmology be like: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Modern cosmology be like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

  58. That's my beef against cosmology by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

    It'a the only discipline where 120 orders of magnitude is a slight disagreement.

  59. LOL - Virtual vs. Simulated and acceptance by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1

    Taking your comment seriously, :-) are you suggesting simulated seems to imply fake, but virtual implies essentially the same? Maybe there is some related change in social consciousness on these topics reflected by "virtual" becoming a more commonly used word?

    From Wikipedia:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V...
    "Virtuality, the quality of having the attributes of something without sharing its (real or imagined) physical form"

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S...
    "Simulation is the imitation of the operation of a real-world process or system over time."

    Virtual can also potentially be a subtype of simulation:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L...

    So yes, simulation does seem to imply more fakeness (imitation) than virtuality (which implies the essence is still there).

    So, I stand corrected! Thank you, fyngyrz! It's virtual turtles all the way down. :-) Sorry for being insensitive about that!

    BTW, I watched this excellent video last night of "Inventing the Future" with Robert Tercek, interviewing Bruce Schneier and Julian Sanchez about pervasive surveillance, drones, and related social changes, and the advertisements were all about Microsoft HoloLens:
    "Next Future Terrifying Technology Will Blow Your Mind"
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

    A decade or more ago I saw a video of similar augmented reality demo (Steve Feinberg walking around Columbia university?),.
    http://www.cnet.com/pictures/g...
    "Steven Feinberg (left), a professor of computer science at Columbia University, created the first outdoor mobile augmented reality system using a see-through display in 1996."

    But Microsoft HoloLens looked so much more impressive and integrated, and I can imagine with better head tracking technology like for Oculus Rift, that it would work better. Slashdot has an article on HoloLens from eight hours ago:
    http://tech.slashdot.org/story...

    But in the context of this discussion, Microsoft's "HoloLens" show how the line between "physical" and "virtual" can start to become blurred.
    http://www.microsoft.com/micro...
    "The result is the world's most advanced holographic computing platform, enabled by Windows 10. For the first time ever, Microsoft HoloLens brings high-definition holograms to life in your world, where they integrate with your physical places, spaces, and things. Holograms will improve the way you do things every day, and enable you to do things youâ(TM)ve never done before."

    Reminds me a bit of Red Dwarf and Arnold Rimmer. :-)

    Perhaps many religions are right, and for our situation at least, an omniscient "god" really does know everything we do? And if every timestep of the virtuality/simulation is recorded somehow, then perhaps nothing is ever lost -- except in a stegnographic sense, or perhaps in the sense of having no more significant runtime devoted directly to its continued processing as an entity as it has lost obvious coherence?

    People talk about how any singularity might be more about humans merging with machines then machines taking over, and one can wonder if, the first time, if there was one, virtualizing was more about a merging of physical and simulated/computed/virtualized as with HoloLens than one or the other?

    Anyway, just random thoughts. It is in the nature of virtualization that you can never be sure what layers really surrounds you, so we may never know...

    One other tangential issue:

    --
    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
  60. Big Bang illusion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The red-shift is a function of distance, not speed.

  61. But? by janap · · Score: 1

    "Clearly, anybody who can resolve these problems has a bright future in science but may also end up tearing modern cosmology apart."

    But what? Real scientists love it when their models blow apart.

  62. Re:Slashdot, byebye! by kilfarsnar · · Score: 1

    OP says "paradox" but the issues discussed in the paper are not strictly paradoxes, just contradictions. There is a difference. If you say it's black and I say it's white, that's not a paradox but a contradiction. If one theory says it's red and another theory says it's green, again that's not paradox but mere contradiction.

    But I'm here for an argument!

    --
    "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
  63. Original Article by tobiah · · Score: 1

    Looks mostly theoretical.
    https://www.researchgate.net/p...

    --
    "The ability to delude yourself may be an important survival tool" - Jane Wagner -
  64. Re:If the universe is a simulation energy is varia by radtea · · Score: 1

    The simulation argument is nonsense that is only plausible to people who either haven't given it any thought or don't know any physics: http://www.tjradcliffe.com/?p=...

    --
    Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
  65. I can offer a solution to the cosmology problem by hAckz0r · · Score: 2
    The answer to the cosmological problem can be found in thermodynamics, and the same solution simultaneously removes the need for Dark Matter, Dark Energy, and explains the origin of the vacuum energy. By partially defining the photon in physical terms Gravity becomes simply a emergent property of spacetime given the existence of vacuum energy and it's interaction with the spacetime curvature. In my paper I logically present an argument for the thermodynamics as a conclusion, and present a theory based on first principals. I defer the complete definition and the photon and structure of spacetime/matter for a later paper, so I apologize in advance for trying to keep the paper small enough to be readable.

    .
    On The Thermodynamics Of General Relativity.
    http://vixra.org/abs/1412.0270

    I have been looking for constructive feedback on these new ideas, so please do so if you have the time. I published this paper simply to get these new ideas out on the table for discussion by the community while I turn my attention to my next paper on solutions to the paradox of Special Relativity, and later the structure of matter and spacetime. The same solution fits all the open issues I know about.
    Thermodynamic Unification Theory https://plus.google.com/u/0/+S...

    1. Re:I can offer a solution to the cosmology problem by TechnoJoe · · Score: 0

      Constructive feedback: The Dark Side of Time

    2. Re:I can offer a solution to the cosmology problem by megahurts.gr · · Score: 1

      I don't understand a thing, but if I could vote, I would vote +1 "Interesting".

      --
      This guide is definitive. Reality is frequently inacurate. (from THHGTTG)
  66. Re:Gravity is the weakest force by david_thornley · · Score: 1

    One thing is obvious: you and I have not known the same scientists. Are you sure you've talked to scientists about that? It sounds to me more like people who are interested in the results of science and don't understand the process very well.

    And, yes, gravity dominates over long distances. The strong and weak force are actually limited in range, and although electromagnetism is far stronger than gravity it isn't additive: add positive and negative charges together and you get something not strongly affected, and if you try to add only positive together (say) they'll both attract negative and repel each other, resulting in overall roughly neutral charge in a volume. Gravity is additive: put matter together and it will try to clump on its own (less so without electromagnetism to affect behavior at short range), and it will have an increased force over distance.

    --
    "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  67. Uhm... by nagromlt · · Score: 1

    When water "solidifies" at 0C (less energy), it "expands" its volume... This is not the only substance to do this. I think the problem with that "paradox" is that it is not a paradox at all. It is a reprsentation of the misconception that all "known" things follow the not-so common sense rule that less energy means contraction. 'Ya follow me? It does not break any rules (that I know of) when you understand why this occurs... i.e. Van Der Walls forces, etc.

  68. The essay falis to grasp "infinity" by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1

    As with many cosmological argument, that essay called "Imaginary Arguments" by TJ Radcliffe does not prove anything about a potential infinity of nested infinite universes. There is a key hedge there of "given what we currently know of physics". Much of physics (for example the Heisenberg uncertainty principle) is in essence a theory of what we could conceivably learn about the universe and beyond, not actual information on the universe and beyond. Likewise for saying we can see up to a certain distance of some billions of light years in space and time. That tells us essentially nothing about what is beyond those limits. We could, for example, be in an expanding bubble in a larger ocean of such bubbles -- but we could not tell using light-speed-limited electromagnetism. It would take, say, access to universe level bugs or debugger hooks to make an exploit that would let us travel beyond those electromagnetic limits in a human lifetime. :-)

    This is where that essay goes off the rails, when i overgeneralizes the issue of what we can know with what might be out there: "Nor will it do to imagine alternative physics to fix all this up: insofar as the philosopher's argument is to have any claim on our attention at all, it must be based on what we know about the universe we actually live in, not some self-contradictory universe of a philosopher's imagination, where particles and computers behave in impossible ways."

    That may be a useful sentiment by an observer about an observed box, but it is an overly limiting one when talking about things outside a box the observer appears to be in. At the very best, experimental physics can only tell us about the currently "observable" universe within a very small space-time bubble surrounding the current Earth.

    So what if experiments are precise to many digits? When you are dealing with possible infinities and nested universes, anything is possible. It just does not matter how mind-bogglingly large the numbers are, or even if every universe can only simulate 0.5% of itself. The observable universe is already mind-boggling large. What are, say, a few trillion extra zeros tacked on to that regarding data storage needs or time needs for simulations to have billions of virtual turtles simulating nested universes some of the way down? :-)

    Or in other words, from xkcd:
    "A Bunch of Rocks"
    http://xkcd.com/505/

    Also, there are probably ways things could appear to be precise in some ways to a limited number of observers (like millions of Earth scientists), but not really being fully fleshed out. However, going down that rabbit hole involves many deep existential questions (like how can I know anything at all exists, or has existed, or will exist, how can I trust my memories, how many observers really exist, etc.) that most physicists may be better off ignoring, either career-wise or for mental health reasons. :-)
    http://disciplined-minds.com/
    "Upon publication of Disciplined Minds, the American Institute of Physics fired author Jeff Schmidt. He had been on the editorial staff of Physics Today magazine for 19 years. Following advice given in the book itself, Schmidt and free-expression advocates mounted a campaign that brought public judgment to bear on Schmidtâ(TM)s dismissal. Such justice is available to anyone not afraid to go public."

    That said, such an essay might fairly criticize specific conclusions in "the simulation argument" itself, since much of that is indeed speculative related to "ancestor simulation" or best practices for living in one. But for anyone who has spent time using computer VMs, as well as the mathematics of infinities, the essay-as-is sounds fairly limited in its thinking.

    Of course, even the notion of "infinity" has its controversies: :-)
    "Dispute over Infinity Divides Mathematicians "

    --
    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
  69. See volume 3 of Mills's GUTCP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://www.blacklightpower.com/theory-2/theory/cosmology/

  70. Re:Gravity is the weakest force by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But talk someone on the "mainstream" - including just self-presumed scientifically educated persons that the Big Bang perhaps did not take place,

    I've been to talks to general physicists audiences that discuss alternative theories to the Big Bang. There was no screaming of "heretic" or attacking the presenter, there was instead an above average attendance, a lot of genuinely interested questions, and dialog. Maybe it helps because the talks were, "Here is an interesting idea..." followed by a detailed, quantitative discussion of the implications of the idea. There was no dwelling on the right or wrongness of more established theories, no holier-than-thou attitudes, lecturing people with broad assumptions on why they have certain confidence levels in different current theories. It was just instead a solid hour or two of discussing physics (not physicists or psychology, etc.), and a lot of people having fun looking at something novel, and an open dialog about pros and cons, successes and short comings, etc.

  71. Re:Slashdot, byebye! by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

    OP says "paradox" but the issues discussed in the paper are not strictly paradoxes, just contradictions. There is a difference. If you say it's black and I say it's white, that's not a paradox but a contradiction. If one theory says it's red and another theory says it's green, again that's not paradox but mere contradiction.

    But I'm here for an argument!

    I told you once.

  72. Re:Gravity is the weakest force by Bengie · · Score: 1

    The simplest calculation tends to be the most correct. We almost always start out with something complex, and as we find out more information, we can simplify the equation. The more complex something is, the more likely it is to be "brittle".

  73. redshift by minyard · · Score: 1

    could the redshift of distant galaxies be attenuation of light?