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Valve's Economist Yanis Varoufakis Appointed Greece's Finance Minister

eldavojohn writes A turnover in the Greek government resulted from recent snap elections placing SYRIZA (Coalition of the Radical Left) in power — just shy of an outright majority by two seats. Atheist, and youngest Prime Minister in Greek history since 1865, Alexis Tsipras has been appointed the new prime minister and begun taking immediate drastic steps against the recent austerity laws put in place by prior administrations. One such step has been to appoint Valve's economist Yanis Varoufakis to position of Finance Minister of Greece. For the past three years Varoufakis has been working at Steam to analyze and improve the Steam Market but now has the opportunity to improve one of the most troubled economies in the world.

63 of 328 comments (clear)

  1. Honestly... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I don't know how to feel about this one...

    1. Re:Honestly... by mhlo · · Score: 2

      EU is a fail. Greece surrendering their sovereignty to the EU was a mistake from the beginning.

    2. Re: Honestly... by buswolley · · Score: 2, Informative

      That's because game economies are like real economies in many ways and they know that economies collapse when you have austerity...when too little new money is created.

      --

      A Good Troll is better than a Bad Human.

    3. Re: Honestly... by digsbo · · Score: 2, Interesting

      That's because game economies are like real economies in many ways and they know that economies collapse when you have too much debt...when too little debt is paid back.

      FTFY.

    4. Re: Honestly... by ultranova · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This certainly explains the observed tendency of economies to collapse randomly no matter how they're run.

      However, unlike in game economies, decisions in real economies affect people in addition to economy. Even if austerity actually was a cure to euro's problems, it cannot continue without destroying EU itself. People aren't going to tolerate endless misery just to boost some number, no matter how necessary politicians (who don't share the misery) deem it.

      Either EU gets euro to work without austerity, or it has to abandon it. Demanding sacrifices from the common people who's reward is having less say in their own local affairs is quickly discrediting the entire union.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    5. Re: Honestly... by ahodgson · · Score: 2

      What Europe calls austerity, everyone else calls living within one's means. Which, in the long term, is non-optional.

    6. Re:Honestly... by Darinbob · · Score: 2

      EU is a fail by allowing Greece to join in the first place. Greece would have been far worse off today without joining the EU, and the EU would have been better off.

    7. Re:Honestly... by youngone · · Score: 2

      I'm not sure I understand you correctly. Since the EU was formed, (or, more precisely, it's previous incarnations as the common Steel market, Common Market etc) Europe has been at war with itself no times. Over the previous 15 centuries or so since the fall of the Roman Empire, there has been no period of peace as long. I would say the EU has been nothing but success, as it has prevented young men like my Father from being drafted into an army and sent to fight a bunch of young men he had no real quarrel.

    8. Re: Honestly... by jonnyj · · Score: 5, Interesting

      What Europe calls austerity, everyone else calls living within one's means. Which, in the long term, is non-optional.

      Quite apart from the politics and economics, this is a really complex moral issue.

      On the one hand, the Greek people repeatedly elected governments that failed to collect taxes or eliminate corruption, spent money that they didn't have and borrowed money that they couldn't afford to repay. On that assessment, the Greeks deserve every bit of misery they've endured since their creditors decided to stop pouring good money after bad. But the trouble with that view is that a different bunch of Greeks are having to pay the bills: an entire generation is growing up with a broken economy because their parents voted for jam today.

      It's the same with the creditors. In pursuit of political gain and a quick buck, banks and other eurozone governments supported successive corrupt Greek governments in their act of intergenerational theft. They deserve to lose their shirts as the Greeks default just as surely as a payday lender that fails to assess the affordability of its loans deserves to go bust. The problem is that the bill ultimately gets picked up by innocent bystanders - mostly German taxpayers. True, those same German taxpayers voted for their inept government that failed to regulate their banks' exposure to Greece, but that was hardly a major electoral issue at the time.

      So Greek voters and Greek governments connived with European bankers to profit from the German population and younger Greeks. I have no sympathy with any of them. A plague on all their houses!

    9. Re:Honestly... by mhlo · · Score: 2

      Don't discount NATO and American leadership/presence in Europe for the peace that persists. Furthermore, EU austerity imposed on Greece has created conditions (unemployment, hunger, poverty) that has given rise to radical factions in Greece. Golden Dawn, Syriza, etc. Yet Greeks are not blameless either. Corruption has been rampant. Still, impositions and edicts from Brussels and Germany are not helping Greece. If the EU is truly the federation they imagine they will not continue to impose on Greece the harsh austerity program. The EU must extend the debt and or forgive internist payments. For all the damage Germany has historically caused Greece during the wars there should be no argument.

    10. Re: Honestly... by Methadras · · Score: 2

      Austerity doesn't collapse governments. Oh wait, it does, you know why? Because austerity reveals the fat, bloated, obese pigs that government are and have become and austerity as an economic diet makes them collapse under their own weight. If you have a trimmed down government, a government that lives within its means, a government that doesn't over-promise and under-deliver doesn't require austerity because it will be a government that works to stay out of the way of it's people to let them be as prosperous and as successful as possible while maintaining it's owns girth.

  2. Badges by space_jake · · Score: 5, Funny

    EU trading cards to the rescue!

    1. Re:Badges by netsavior · · Score: 4, Funny

      And hats, hats, as far as the eye can see!

    2. Re:Badges by golden+age+villain · · Score: 2

      Damn, too late for the TF2 jokes...

  3. All we have to do by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    ...is farm more gold. That'll solve all of our economic woes!

  4. Brave Man by jratcliffe · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Finance Minister of Greece ranks pretty high on my list of "you could pay me enough, but it would be A LOT" jobs.

    1. Re:Brave Man by Flavianoep · · Score: 3, Informative

      Preferably in a foreign currency, right?

      FYI, there is no "national currency" in Greece, anything is paid in Euro.

      --
      Linux is for people who don't mind RTFM.
    2. Re:Brave Man by digsbo · · Score: 2

      Swiss francs.

  5. Valve's time by Kinwolf · · Score: 4, Funny

    If he's working on "Valve's time", then he'll produce the first draft about possible solutions around 10 years after Greece has ceased to exist as a country.

    1. Re:Valve's time by thegarbz · · Score: 2

      Not at all. They'll move to a rapid release schedule. There will be discrete episodes.
      Episode 1 will be the removal of previous measures.
      Episode 2 will be an announcement that the end of all problems is coming soon.
      Then they'll spend 6 years promising episode 3 is coming soon.

  6. Soon: Greece abandons the Euro by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    and transitions to a diversified, hat-based economy.

  7. This doesn't sound... sound by medv4380 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I don't really want to compare Yanis to a gambling murderer, but I am anyways. This sounds a bit too much like John Law getting appointed to fix the French Economy. That turned out great for everyone didn't it. Appointing someone to run your economy who's primary job in economics was to make a bunch of gambling addicts to improve steams revenue doesn't sound like the kind of person who should be fixing an economy. But who knows, maybe he'll do something good and be crowned a genius.

    1. Re:This doesn't sound... sound by Gaygirlie · · Score: 5, Informative

      I know it's fashionable to jump on the Valve-hating-bandwagon, but would it be too much of an effort to, you know, not follow the flock and use some common sense instead? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... lists a lot of reasons for why he seems like a good person for this, like e.g. the following exerpt on his academic career:

      After training in mathematics and statistics, Varoufakis received his economics doctorate in 1987 at the University of Essex. Before that he had already begun teaching economics and econometrics at the University of Essex and the University of East Anglia. In 1988 he spent a year as a Fellow at the University of Cambridge. From 1989 until 2000 he taught as Senior Lecturer in Economics at the Department of Economics of the University of Sydney. In 2000 he moved to his native Greece where he is still Professor of Economic Theory at the University of Athens (currently on leave). In 2002 Varoufakis established The University of Athens Doctoral Program in Economics (UADPhilEcon), which he directed until 2008. Since January 2013 he has been teaching at the Lyndon B. Johnson School of Public Affairs at the University of Texas at Austin.

      This guy has written several books, he appears as guest analyst for news media like the BBC, CNN, Sky News, Russia Today and Bloomberg TV and he seems to be quite well-respected everywhere. But no, you just focus on the fact that he also happens to work for Valve.

    2. Re:This doesn't sound... sound by tnk1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm not going to judge based on what his last job was, if he's actually technically qualified to do this one.

      I just wonder what their plan is. Austerity is not a happy thing, but it is definitely possible to make things worse. With their economy in its current state, the usual leftist option of borrowing and spending their way out of it may be very limited. Not to mention that it sort of got them there to begin with. And the people likely elected these guys because they want their benefits back, somehow. Sadly democracy does not always make for good economic policy.

      It would be interesting if there was some clever model that could get them out of this mes.

    3. Re:This doesn't sound... sound by gstoddart · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You know ... looking around what has happened in the last few decades ... I think being a trained economist makes you eminently unqualified to run an economy.

      Economics is as much ideology as it is "science" -- what you think will happen depends on what you believe happens. Economics is not some intrinsic natural law.

      It seems like trained economists are just as likely to fuck up an economy as would be trained monkeys -- because at the end of the day you have shockingly little control over things, and probably less of an understanding that you claim. Let's not start pretending that economists actually know anything about the economy. They know what their ideologically driven view of economics tells them to they know.

      I think calling economics a "science" is a complete joke -- because it's not.

      Of course, the biggest thing facing Greece is they can't wave away their debts and their problems -- never been certain the austerity program was going to work for them, but they basically drove themselves into the ground and won't get out by telling Germany et al "thanks for the money, now piss off".

      When you have no cash, and nobody is willing to give you credit ... this new government seems to be living in a fantasy if they think they can just make that all go away.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    4. Re:This doesn't sound... sound by Gaygirlie · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Let's not start pretending that economists actually know anything about the economy.

      Let's not start pretending that you actually know anything about economists or economy. Sounds much more like ignorance and axe-grinding to me.

    5. Re:This doesn't sound... sound by gstoddart · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Not claiming I have the answers ... but I'm flat out saying the economists who tell us WTF the economy is doing and why are so completely full of shit as to be laughable.

      Economics isn't a science, it's fucking ideology.

      The idiotic policies of Alan Greenspan almost directly led to the housing bubble ... and even he admits his notion of "free money" was idiotic and wrong.

      Economics is NOT a fucking science and never has been, it's intrinsically linked to politics and ideology.

      People who claim it is some kind of objective science are either lying to us, or to themselves. Science doesn't yield different outcomes based on your political leaning.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    6. Re:This doesn't sound... sound by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 2, Interesting

      With their economy in its current state, the usual leftist option of borrowing and spending their way out of it may be very limited. .

      Who in their right mind would lend to the Greeks? The way it is looking now, the German taxpayers will be paying for it . . . and they are not enthusiastically pleased about it, to say the least.

      Having Greece and Germany share a common currency was a shit-brained idea. In one hour, German workers shove off a couple of Porsches and Mercedes of their production line. In one hour, Greek workers roll a few dolmades and stuff a few gigantes in a can.

      And yes, I worked with some guys from Greece on a European Research project. Guys from the Athens Technology Center (ATC) and the National Technology University of Athens (NTUA). They took a month to do what student from the UK, USA or Germany could do in an afternoon.

      I have the feeling that Varoufakis is just going to be another flak in the "Blame the EU" for problems of our own making choir.

      Well, if you don't like the EU, Greece, don't let the door hit you on your ass on the way out.

      I'm not well versed in Aesop's Fables . . . is there one about biting the hand that feeds you . . . ?

      --
      Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
    7. Re:This doesn't sound... sound by Gaygirlie · · Score: 2

      You're right. I focused on what he's actually done for Valve which is make a gamblers economy which is eerily similar to what John Law did.

      No, you foolishly assume that it was all his decisions and that he actually wielded so much power in the company as to be able to steer its direction as he wishes all the while ignoring the fact that he only joined Valve in 2012 when the company was already very much doing what they are doing now.

    8. Re:This doesn't sound... sound by xevioso · · Score: 3, Interesting

      And yet some economists, like Krugman or Greenspan, are quite prescient with their predictions, and were/are right more often than they were/are wrong about what will happen in the future. It makes more sense to pay attention to someone who has a good track record...Krugman didn't win a Nobel prize because he was lucky or didn't know what the hell he was talking about...

      Economists are like poker players. Yes, there's a lot of luck involved and half the time no one knows what they are anyone else are doing, but it IS possible to be a good economist.

    9. Re:This doesn't sound... sound by ledow · · Score: 2

      If you'd not question Valve hiring the former Finance Minister of Greece to manage the economy of their market, why would you question the reverse?

      The guy's an economist. That's what you want. Meritocracy and all that. And Valve are hardly suffering for his presence in their organisation from what I see, even though they haven't put out their blockbuster game promised nearly 10 years ago.

      They're obviously doing SOMETHING right, attracting millions of people and tens of millions of item sales every day.

    10. Re:This doesn't sound... sound by HornWumpus · · Score: 3

      You realize Krugman and Greenspan have more or less opposite views?

      Have you been paying attention to recent Nobel prizes? They (peace and econ anyhow) into political popularity contests.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    11. Re:This doesn't sound... sound by Prune · · Score: 5, Interesting
      They need to leave the euro (as does every other member). Monetary union doesn't work unless you have fiscal and economic union as well, and Europe is too diverse for that any time soon. Trade imbalance results in the most efficient exporter (Germany) beggaring their neighbors and accumulating cash, since the rest can't adapt by floating exchange rates -- it's classic merchantilism. What's worse is that only the heads of the German economic engine really benefit from it, due to wage suppression at home (which is part of what fuels their trade surplus).

      borrowing and spending their way out of it may be very limited

      I don't think you understand macroeconomics. There is a too limited money supply that is significantly worsening a recession/derpession. Greece gave up one of its primary rights as a sovereign -- issuing its own currency -- and so lacks one of the most powerful policy tools for intervention in its own economy. If it wasn't part of the euro, it wouldn't have to borrow from anyone but itself. Even the US mainly borrows from itself: the majority of its debt is not held by foreigners but is simply a number registered between treasury and federal reserve, which is an accounting fiction akin to debt between husband and wife. There are primarily political reasons some of the US debt is held by others, but it's not a basic requirement of its monetary system. The typical argument against government spending is inflation, but that doesn't happen if the spending is targeted as to decrease unemployment and thus increase aggregate demand -- which is exactly what's needed in a recession. The devil is in exactly how the spending should be carried out (things like a job guarantee http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J... come to mind) and should not be carried out (Bernanke's quantitative easing).

      --
      "Politicians and diapers must be changed often, and for the same reason."
    12. Re:This doesn't sound... sound by gstoddart · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Economics isn't an ideology.

      Bullshit, it sure isn't objective science, it's models, based on dubious assumptions which aren't reflective of anything other than the beliefs of the person who made them, and then using mathematics of dubious quality to "prove" what your ideology tells you.

      Are you retarded or just ignorant?

      Are you an asshole or a douchebag?

      I'm saying that when people say "if you cut taxes it will stimulate the economy", that is a purely ideological position, not grounded in objective fact. And economics serves no purpose if it isn't down to implementing policy, which is inherently idological.

      And again, it is like you are saying physics cannot be a science because there is many unproven theories that coexists.

      No, I'm saying physics still boils down to actual objective reality, and in no fucking way shape or form does economics do that, and never has.

      Frankly, you are an idiot.

      Frankly, you're an asshole who thinks too highly of his own opinion.

      So far you've failed to offer anything intelligent, just the cowardly ad hominem attacks of a worthless moron with nothing new to add.

      So, I'll tell you what, here's a piece by someone who has a fucking Nobel prize in "economic science".
      One problem with economics is that it is necessarily focused on policy, rather than discovery of fundamentals. Nobody really cares much about economic data except as a guide to policy: economic phenomena do not have the same intrinsic fascination for us as the internal resonances of the atom or the functioning of the vesicles and other organelles of a living cell. We judge economics by what it can produce. As such, economics is rather more like engineering than physics, more practical than spiritual.

      There is no Nobel prize for engineering, though there should be. True, the chemistry prize this year looks a bit like an engineering prize, because it was given to three researchers - Martin Karplus, Michael Levitt, and Arieh Warshel - "for the development of multiscale models of complex chemical systems" that underlie the computer programs that make nuclear magnetic resonance hardware work. But the Nobel Foundation is forced to look at much more such practical, applied material when it considers the economics prize.

      The problem is that once we focus on economic policy, much that is not science comes into play. Politics becomes involved, and political posturing is amply rewarded by public attention. The Nobel prize is designed to reward those who do not play tricks for attention, and who, in their sincere pursuit of the truth, might otherwise be slighted.

      Why is it called a prize in "economic sciences", rather than just "economics"? The other prizes are not awarded in the "chemical sciences" or the "physical sciences."

      Fields of endeavour that use "science" in their titles tend to be those that get masses of people emotionally involved and in which crackpots seem to have some purchase on public opinion. These fields have "science" in their names to distinguish them from their disreputable cousins.

      So, seriously, fuck off and grow up.

      Economics is descriptive how what complex systems involving humans do. But is is NOT measuring some innate natural properties of how that actually works.

      As soon as economics goes from measuring and describing, and steps into applying policy .... it utterly ceases to be a science.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    13. Re: This doesn't sound... sound by tnk1 · · Score: 2

      That consideration is a factor, but governments tend to be long lasting entities, so they could certainly eventually pay off the debt, if they shrunk or even deferred payments for awhile. Something is usually better than nothing for a vendor, as long as the cost of administering the debt is less than what they bring in.

      The best thing for Greece to do financially is to restore solvency. Austerity may not be the best solution, but it is certainly on the right track. Defaults or borrow and spend can work, but *only* if they take the short term windfall and do something useful with it. Otherwise, they've trashed their financial future.

      Unfortunately, financial solvency doesn't provide for retirement for people directly, although for any realistic social insurance program, you need to have long term financial stability and capacity. That means that even though austerity may actually work, there is clearly not the will to see it through.

      It may be a good idea for Greece to default and deal with it, but that will end their ability to get anything like good loans in the near future. And I don't think the extra money from no longer paying on the debt will fix the quality of life problems that the people in Greece have right now.

    14. Re:This doesn't sound... sound by T.E.D. · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I just wonder what their plan is. Austerity is not a happy thing, but it is definitely possible to make things worse. With their economy in its current state, the usual leftist option of borrowing and spending their way out of it may be very limited

      Austerity for an entire government simply sucks. Cutting expenses is a great idea for an individual, but for a government that's more like trying to balance your checkbook by taking a lower-paying job close to home (Hey! Gasoline expenses are way down!). Or more accurately, a company trying to balance its ledger by selling less products. Adherence to this idea is why Europe is still deep in recession while China and the USA have been back to economic growth (and in the USA's case, falling real dollar deficits) for over a year now. If it needs to do so, a government should cut expenses during a recovery, not during a recession.

      Greece has some systemic problems that helped get them into this mess (eg: tax cheating is practically a national sport). But when faced with a recession they have 2 basic problems. The first is that they aren't AAA borrowers like the USA, so their government can't just borrow money at will. If they want to borrow large sums, they have to cajole it out of someone (like the EU). The second is that they are shackled to the Euro, which means all the monetary policy options that the US relied on to pull itself out are not available to Greece. That means leaving the EU, or borrowing more money from it, are really their only 2 options.

      It would really behoove the EU to develop some analog to the US's Fed to run their monetary policy. The problem is everything there seems to run on consensus, and I simply don't see how that's possible when you have such divergent members. They'd have to get themselves a semi-independent policy board, like the US has, or unify all their national budgets and expect to have to regularly pour EU tax dollars into poorer members, like the US does every year with Mississippi.

      One thing is pretty clear though. The current middle ground the EU is trying to run just isn't working.

    15. Re: This doesn't sound... sound by ultranova · · Score: 2

      Unless they intend to get forgiveness... or default. I am not sure that Greece is "too big to fail" where they can do that.

      It is. EU is not a nation, it's a collection of nations, and "European identity" is weak at best. Anti-EU movements are already growing, and won't have any trouble taking power if it starts to look like EU is a threat to the nations people actually identity with.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    16. Re: This doesn't sound... sound by amiga3D · · Score: 2

      It appears that Greece is pretty much screwed. The people aren't willing to sacrifice to pay back the debt. I'm pretty sure the bankers have already given all the ground they're willing to give. At this point it looks hopeless. You've got an opportunist politician now running things who has won by telling people what they want to hear. I wonder what's going to happen when it becomes obvious he can't deliver?

    17. Re:This doesn't sound... sound by sjames · · Score: 2

      Case in point, the paper that convinced everyone austerity was the answer was found to have a math error that flipped the results. Everyone knows it but austerity marches on because the top economists say what their masters want them to say.

    18. Re: This doesn't sound... sound by DarenN · · Score: 2

      However, I would tend to agree with you that a clean bankruptcy is better than a messy partial default. Expect that there is no real mechanism to Greece to default. If I understand correctly, it would be easier for Greece to exit the EU, convert to the Drachma, and devalue the currency.

      Except that all those debts are denominated in Euro, so exiting and devaluing makes things worse. So they need to exit and default. This means that they've lost the advantages of being in the common trade area, their currency will be worth very little (which might boost tourism to a point) but no-one will lend them money so they will either inflate at a very high rate or be forced to do their own austerity and either way it does not improve their prospects.

      --
      Rational thought is the only true freedom
  8. Yanis Varoufakis by cheesybagel · · Score: 4, Informative

    He basically wants Eurozone banks to have a single rescue fund, for the ECB to issue bonds, and the EIB to invest into the periphery economies to get out of the crisis.

    There's just one problem. Even if they make sense none of those things can be done by Greece alone. I hope he has a Plan B.

    You can see him explain his views on the current economic crisis in this video.

    1. Re:Yanis Varoufakis by cheesybagel · · Score: 2

      If you listen to his talks what he says is that a lot of countries cooked their books to get into the Eurozone. He says Greece simply borrowed the same creative accounting technique Italy used to get in the Eurozone so by the same metric Italy shouldn't have been in either. He also stated that Germany also used creative accounting by counting the gold they had in their treasury as income in order to erase the debt of their federal states.

  9. Radical Left allowed to run a country... by mi · · Score: 4, Funny
    --
    In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    1. Re:Radical Left allowed to run a country... by mi · · Score: 2

      Shit like this [Chile coup, Pinochet -mi]

      Chile's Pinochet, upon stepping down (show me one Left-dictator to have done that!), has left his country as the top Latin American economy. And their homicide-rate today is 3.7 per 100K people — compare that to Venezuela's 67!

      And how would you propose to disallow the radical left from running a country, when that country is a democracy and the people vote for it?

      By not voting for the assholes — and by persecuting them wherever they appear with the same vigor as the other brand of collectivists is being persecuted already.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    2. Re:Radical Left allowed to run a country... by mi · · Score: 2

      Venezuela's resources are just too valuable for the pirates to leave to the competition, been that way for what, about 500 years now?

      Well, if it has been a problem for 500 years, please quadrupling of the homicide rate in the country since 1998. And the 23-fold increase in kidnappings over the same period... Are you going to blame the CIA for it?

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    3. Re:Radical Left allowed to run a country... by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Here's a better link to an article from The Economist: http://www.economist.com/blogs...

      AS one country after another on the periphery of the euro zone had to swallow painful reforms and fiscal austerity as the price for their bail-outs between 2010 and 2013, the surprise was that by and large they accepted the medicine without a large-scale populist revolt. But Sunday’s result in the Greek election marks a turning-point because Syriza, the radical-left party that has prevailed at the polls, campaigned on casting aside austerity, backtracking on the reforms and renegotiating the vast debt that Greece owes its European creditors. These policies are unacceptable to the euro-zone countries, especially Germany, that have lent Greece so much money. The outcome of the election could also have wider implications. Why does the Greek result matter?

      A clash is impending because the Greeks see their recent history in a very different light from that of the Germans and other Europeans who have bailed them out. From the perspective of Northern creditor nations, Greece was the architect of its own misfortune by mismanaging its public finances on a staggering scale. It has been lent an astonishing amount of money in not just one but two bail-outs, amounting to €246 billion ($275 billion), worth more than the country’s entire economic output. From a Greek perspective, however, the country has suffered a calamitous decline in GDP, which at its low in late 2013 was 27% down on its pre-crisis peak. Harsh spending cuts and tax rises have been imposed again and again as conditions for further economic support. Greeks feel that they have lost control of their country, which is now instead being directed by the hated troika: the European Commission, the IMF and the European Central Bank.

      Syriza won on Sunday because Alexis Tsipras, the party's leader, offered a message of hope to a country still in despair, even though the economy is now recovering. But the difficulty with his plan for Greece is that it requires other Europeans to finance it—or to countenance a reversal of reforms they regard as vital for Greece to cope with euro-zone membership. If Mr Tsipras makes good on promises of higher spending and lower taxes then Greece will fail to meet its objective of running a big primary budget surplus (ie, before interest payments), which would make it far harder to get its debt down from 175% of GDP. And if he reverses reforms such as the ones that have brought down wages, then Greece will head back towards the uncompetitive economic mess that, along with budgetary mismanagement, got it into trouble in the first place.

      In the negotiations that will now occur between Mr Tsipras and Greece’s creditors, Germany will give little ground. Angela Merkel, too, must pay attention to domestic opinion, which would be hostile to any concessions. The German chancellor also has to reckon with the wider impact of any deal that appeared to reward Syriza in emboldening populist revolts in other countries in the euro area, notably in Spain. For any country to leave the euro will be destabilising because it would break the supposed irrevocability of membership. But if Mr Tsipras were to get his way then the euro area would become a club where borrowers rather than lenders called the shots, which would be unsustainable. That is why Mr Tsipras will, before long, face a difficult choice between backing down on his demands—or presiding over a ruinous Greek exit.

      --
      Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
    4. Re:Radical Left allowed to run a country... by mi · · Score: 2

      Tell me why I shouldn't.

      Go ahead. Be sure to cite facts, though. With Wikileaks and Snowden out there, you ought to have plenty to work with. Take your time.

      If they're destabilizing the place like in the middle east and south Asia and Africa

      Begs the question, does not it?..

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    5. Re:Radical Left allowed to run a country... by gerddie · · Score: 2

      Shit like this [Chile coup, Pinochet -mi]

      Chile's Pinochet, upon stepping down (show me one Left-dictator to have done that!), has left his country as the top Latin American economy.

      Really? Then why is this organge line indicating the average of Latin America above the blue line indicating Chile between 1970 and 1991? There is also a different story to tell.

    6. Re:Radical Left allowed to run a country... by hibiki_r · · Score: 3, Interesting

      That article hits the nail in the head. For Europe, this is not about Greece: Their economy is small, and by itself, if they sank nothing would matter. It's what it says to Spain, a country with a general election coming pretty soon, and who has its own new, populist left wing party that runs against corruption and austerity.

      The Eurozone can handle anything that happens to Greece. But if Spain decides to ignore the troika, beware.

    7. Re:Radical Left allowed to run a country... by mi · · Score: 2

      Then why is this organge line [wikipedia.org] indicating the average of Latin America above the blue line indicating Chile between 1970 and 1991?

      Because life sucked in the country, and the Marxist Allende (elected in 1970) proceeded to further destroy the economy until stopped by Pinochet in 1973. A series of reforms — commonly known today as "Miracle of Chile" — were necessary. The upswing in the blue line, that outperforms the orange line so convincingly today started in 1984 — with a minor hiccup in 1988, when Pinochet stepped down after losing a referendum.

      Pinochet rules, Chavez drools.

      There is also a different story to tell.

      Yea, yea. In the face of Chile prospering doing, what they hate, while Cuba and Venezuela are faltering doing what they love, the Collectivists are anxious to find excuses...

      Decades-long economic experiments — when similar (or identical) peoples lived under different economic regime: Estonia (within USSR) vs. Finland, East vs. West Germany, North vs. South Korea, Mainland China vs. Taiwan, Cuba (or Venezuela) vs. Chile — how many more examples does one need before admitting, allowing the Left to rule in earnest is an error (when it is not a crime)?

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    8. Re:Radical Left allowed to run a country... by cant_get_a_good_nick · · Score: 2

      Though unlikely to change your opinion, Krugman has an interesting piece on how they're not so radical after all, but pretty much following textbook macro. Don't like Krugman? Well, he predicted the economic quagmire that we're in now. Bill Gross was so off he got kicked out of his own firm.

      If you're reactionary, everything pretty much looks like radicalism,

  10. Re:Not sure it's a good job choice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    They're already past the "make things worse" stage. That's what austerity brought.

    Shit's hitting the fan and that's why the radicals are showing up

  11. Why the atheist mention? by TodoRojo · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The fact that he is atheist has nothing to do with the story. Why mention it?

  12. Hat Act 1732 by tepples · · Score: 4, Interesting

    And hats, hats, as far as the eye can see!

    There'd be precedent for that in the European Union. England had a law in effect from 1571 through 1597 to make failure to wear a British-made wool cap in public a crime.

  13. Re:Greeks Act Like Children by Ash-Fox · · Score: 3, Insightful

    What they really don't like isn't austerity, it's living within their means.

    Wrong, the austerity measures implemented a dependency on living outside the means of the country, without the ability to devalue their currency in a controlled fashion like Iceland did, this makes recovery not possible. You don't get a man out of debt by lending more money to him and forcing him to accept it while following specific terms on how to make use of it.

    --
    Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
  14. Re:Looks like a good choice by the Greeks by ledow · · Score: 2

    Shutting down the insolvent banks only solves the bank problems. It doesn't solve the country's and, as you rightly point out, the banks should not be that tied to the country policy.

    In many ways, making the banks insolvent is a death warrant to future credit and investment. Who's going to start a bank in Greece now? And who's going to bail out Greece when they can't afford healthcare any more, get invaded, etc.?

    The problem is bigger than the banks, hence focusing on the banks is erroneous. What they've done, however, is thrown out all the measures demanded by other countries and banks that would have saved them money enough to be solvent again some day. And tied those measures in with "greedy bankers". By throwing out the austerity measures, you've basically said "We don't care about saving money or what we spend on things we don't need", and that further destroys your credit as it stinks of mismanagement.

    And, ultimately, a lot of these promises they won't be able to fulfil. What they are saying is that they'll default on loans, remove the money-saving measures already implemented and then SOMEHOW get back in the black. Nobody's quite worked out the somehow.

    It's like a bankrupt telling you they'll go bankrupt, but keep drinking and gambling as before, and somehow they'll get back in the black if only those damn debtors would go away and stop helping them pay their debt off in easy monthly payments.

  15. taxes, civil servants, by ahoffer0 · · Score: 2

    My knowledge of Greek economics doesn't go much beyond NPR, but the changes needed seem pretty straightforward:

    1. Reform civil service
    2. Aggressively prosecute tax fraud
    3. Tax church assessts (i.e. church either make is assets poductive or sells them to someone who will)

    An angry coalition leftists and iconoclasts might be pretty good at 2 of these things. Maybe all 3?

  16. Greece's problem is lack of ecumenic freedom by TheSync · · Score: 3, Informative

    Don't be mislead by the debt problem. If Greece had economic growth, it would not have a debt problem.

    Greece rankes "mostly unfree" on the Index of Economic Freedom:

    Greece's economic freedom score is 54.0, making its economy the 130th freest in the 2015 Index. Its score has declined by 1.7 points since last year due to a substantial deterioration in the control of government spending and smaller declines in business freedom, labor freedom, and fiscal freedom. Greece is ranked 40th out of 43 countries in the Europe region, and its overall score is below the world and regional averages...the rule of law remains problematic, with property rights weakly enforced, tax evasion on the rise, and corruption pervasive. Despite efforts to create a more business-friendly regulatory environment, the labor market remains rigid and slow to adjust to market realities...The overall pace of regulatory reform lags behind other countries. With no minimum capital required, launching a business takes five procedures and 13 days. However, completing licensing requirements still takes about four months on average...

    By the way, regarding "austerity", Greece's public expenditures equal 58.5 percent of domestic output. That does not sound very austere to me.

    1. Re:Greece's problem is lack of ecumenic freedom by Solandri · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yes, 58.5% is really high, but most of it is for servicing its huge mountain of debt (175% of its GDP).

      Japan has more public debt than Greece. But its government only spends about 35% of its GDP.

    2. Re:Greece's problem is lack of ecumenic freedom by sl3xd · · Score: 2

      Japan can also print its own money, which gives it the ability (at least in theory) to wipe out all public debt with the stroke of a pen. There are consequences to that action, but when your debt is counted in your own currency, you can largely ignore the public debt, as long as inflation is kept in check. Most non-eurozone countries (including the US) do the same thing. In fact, inflation has long been used by most nations to decrease the impact of public debt, as the fixed-dollar debt can be reduced to a smaller %age of the GDP. It's how Great Britian and the US 'paid' for World War II, for example. As another example, recall the talk about a "trillion dollar platinum coin" during the most recent US government shutdown, which would have paid off a trillion dollars of debt as well as instantly and drastically inflated the dollar (among other things).

      Greece doesn't have a national currency. Their debt is in Euros, and must be repaid in Euros. Greece can't unilaterally inflate the Euro to reduce their debt load. The situation is closer to the economy of California, which is also heavily in debt. California doesn't get to print its own money, and it doesn't have the option of creating inflation to reduce its debt load.

      Greece and California have two choices: Make their payments, and hope inflation happens on its own, or default and accept they won't be able to borrow money for a substantial amount of time. Growing their economies makes both options more palatable, but doesn't solve the problem by itself.

      --
      -- Sometimes you have to turn the lights off in order to see.
  17. Re:Greeks Act Like Children by Ash-Fox · · Score: 2

    By 'devalue their currency' you mean default on their debt.

    No, I don't. I mean do exactly what Iceland did, where a slow, controlled printing of money was used to devalue themselves to match their economic strength. None of this requires defaulting on it's debts.

    --
    Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
  18. Re:Idiot redistributionists. by jbssm · · Score: 2

    Yeah, capitalism ends when bankers run out of the other people money to bail them out.

  19. Getting Greece to be 99% self-sufficient by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 2

    My suggestion from 2008 when Greece ran out of tear gas: https://groups.google.com/foru...
    "Now, does this make any sense if you understand the possibilities of open manufacturing or an open society? In Greece you have a warm climate, access to oceans, lots of sun and wind, an educated populace with a 2000+ year history of democracy (on and off :-), no obvious external enemies declaring war, and so on. And they are so worried about their future ability to make and use things (which is how I translate "fears for Greece's economic future") that they are running out of tear gas? This all makes no *physical* sense. The place should be a paradise. Instead it is in "self-destruct mode" according to one editor. It must be *ideology*. Or, more correctly, ideology *embodied* in a certain type of productive infrastructure. ...
    So, ironically, we have the worst of both systems. We could have a really centralized system run efficiently with a tiny fraction of the workforce now, with a lot less variety perhaps (that is, all the old Soviet Central Planning stuff would work now that we have the internet and great software and great designs and great computers if we accept some voluntary simplicity), but with everything very cheap (essentially, just given away) and 99% of the population doing whatever they wanted with their time. Or, we could have a freewheeling diverse gift economy of local open manufacturing where people just make whatever they want in an open way, with all sorts of useful and useless items. (Aspects of the two extremes may even converge, since what are the 99% of people going to do with the generic stuff but customize it? :-) Instead, we have a system in the middle that produces some variety at a huge expense of human effort taken away from family and civic duties, and it is a system now with so many questions about its uncertain future (including that anyone who is young will have a dignified place in the economic scheme of things) that an entire country has just run out of tear gas. This makes no sense (except of course, that some people do benefit from this, like tear gas manufacturers, school teachers who get paid to keep kids off the streets preparing them for non-existent jobs, people who are near the top of the economic hierarchy already and feel secure, etc.).
    Anyway, this suggests one target of open manufacturing could be a community of size ranging from Iceland (about 300,000 people) to Greece (about 11,000,000 people). That's certainly an interesting size range. I would think 99% closure of those economies by mass should be easily doable. Computer chips, some medicines, and maybe some other specialized components might be the major imports after the system was set up. Note that while one may not expect Greece or Iceland to "self-replicate" any time soon, the ability do do so ensures it can be self-repairing.
    Anyway, it kind of comes down to how much economic security is worth to a country compared to minimum effort. Given the massive youth unemployment in Greece, and the economic fears of depending on a global economy, it would seem like maximizing productive efficiency through participating in global production would not be at the top of their priority list now that they are out of tear gas. Unfortunately, they did not invest in this research ten years ago. So, this is only theoretical at this point. It might take a very expensive crash program to bring together thousands of researchers for a year to make headway in any time that might make a difference. Still, politically, that is an out for Greece. We could all move there, recruit all the educated youths off the streets, and spend a year figuring out how to make Greece work for everybody and be 99% self-sufficient by mass. :-) But, no need to move with the internet really. Maybe somebody on the list could coordinate moving the rioters off th

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    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.