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The Gap Between What The Public Thinks And What Scientists Know

First time accepted submitter burtosis writes Despite similar views about the overall place of science in America, the general public and scientists often see science-related issues through a different lens, according to a new pair of surveys by the Pew Research Center in collaboration with the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS). From FiveThirtyEight: "The surveys found broad support for government to spend money on science, but that doesn't mean the public supports the conclusions that scientists draw. The biggest gap between scientists and the public came on issues that may elicit fear: the safety of genetically modified (or GMO) foods (37 percent of the public said GMOs were safe, compared to 88 percent of scientists) and the use of pesticides in agriculture (28 percent of the public said foods grown with pesticides were safe to eat, versus 68 percent of scientists). There was also disagreement over the cause of climate change (50 percent of the public said it is mostly due to human activity, compared to 87 percent of scientists). Here’s a full list, via Pew Research Center, of the scientific issues the survey asked about."

33 of 514 comments (clear)

  1. More ambiguous cruft by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    "Scientist" is a woefully ambiguous term. As I scientist, I think GMO food is perfectly safe. I am a nuclear scientist and know little about the GMO process, but that doesn't matter. My opinion does.

    1. Re:More ambiguous cruft by Ambassador+Kosh · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I am a Chemical and Biological Engineer and overall I think that GMO food is safe. I would also like us to use more nuclear power. My views on nuclear power are less informed than my knowledge of GMO is. However, my views on nuclear power are still FAR more informed than the average person.

      I think that is where the major difference comes in.

      Many normal people don't research anything and have very strong opinions. Most scientists and engineers I know do tend to do research before holding a viewpoint.

      Most scientists and engineers I know also find other scientists and engineers they trust in other fields and will accept the more qualified persons viewpoint if it seems reasonable. Most mechanical engineers trust my viewpoint more on chemical and biological stuff and I trust theirs more on aerodynamics.

      It makes sense to listen to more qualified people.

      --
      Computer modeling for biotech drug manufacturing is HARD! :)
    2. Re:More ambiguous cruft by johanw · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It may be safe to eat, but there are other issues with GMO food than that. Setting loose genes in the environment for other organisms to pick up for example. Or patent issues with companies like Monsanto. Those are much less decided by science.

    3. Re:More ambiguous cruft by muridae · · Score: 5, Insightful

      As a Computer Science major, I worry more about the patenting of plants; the copyright of the genetic structure; the terms of licenses imposed by the giant GMO firms; the common use of sterile plants to prevent that "IP" from escaping the farms. They may be safe to eat, but "safe" to me means we won't intentionally repeat the potato famine.

    4. Re:More ambiguous cruft by umafuckit · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Exactly. Furthermore, there are many ways something can be "genetically modified." e.g. You can modify a tomato to downregulate expression of an existing protein to make the fruit bruise less. You can also modify a planet to secrete insecticide. I'm certain that the former is safe but I'd reserve judgement on the latter depending on what the insecticide was. Furthermore, what if the insecticide is safe for me but it kills bees? GMO is too broad an issue for blanket statements.

    5. Re:More ambiguous cruft by Ambassador+Kosh · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Sterile plants are almost never used.

      Monsanto developed that system and last I checked they had NEVER used it for any regular seeds. It was only used in test fields to prevent genes escaping into the wild during testing.

      My view on gene patenting is that any natural gene should not be patent able but the process for insertion should be. However, for any custom developed gene that should be patent able.

      --
      Computer modeling for biotech drug manufacturing is HARD! :)
    6. Re:More ambiguous cruft by Ambassador+Kosh · · Score: 4, Interesting

      This I agree 100% with.

      This is why I can't support the GMO labeling laws I keep seeing. So many just want to label something as GMO which is just based on fear and does not lead to any understanding.

      For ALL kinds of food (organic, gmo, etc) I want to know exactly what is in the food. I want to know the DNA sequence so I can search it or write an app to test it against things i don't want. That is true for GMO and Organic foods. Remember that pink grapefruit was a random mutation. There was no guarantee it would be safe. Same with organic certified chemical mutagens used on organic foods.

      I want all food help to the same high standard. Not this fear based approach that thinks that GMO is different.

      --
      Computer modeling for biotech drug manufacturing is HARD! :)
    7. Re:More ambiguous cruft by harvey+the+nerd · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I am an engineer with chemical and biological background. I've seen more than I want to in commercialized conclusions by PhD scientists that were really just hired guns, corporate and academic. In some cases they got unhired because I proved things otherwise and showed long stretches of repeated, highly biased results.

      I think paycheck corruption in science today is even worse, like with the CAGW promoters.

    8. Re:More ambiguous cruft by GrumpySteen · · Score: 4, Interesting

      No one has genomic techniques to successfully create a protein from whole cloth.

      That used to be true, but science marches on...

      http://www.princeton.edu/main/...

    9. Re:More ambiguous cruft by Dan+East · · Score: 4, Funny

      I am a computer scientist, and I'd like to make a game about a nuclear reactor that melts down and makes GMO food come alive and attack humanity, which I'd sell in the App Store.

      --
      Better known as 318230.
    10. Re:More ambiguous cruft by Karmashock · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The only issue there is that if pollen blows into my field, I don't think it is reasonable that I have to pay you a licensing fee.

      Take for example a bull that breaks through a fence and breeds with some of my cattle. Do I have to pay a breeding fee for you bull's "service" to my herd? No.

      And the thing is that Monsanto has done that in the past. What is more, they'll have funny genes that will not only not fertilize my crops but will literally make them sterile. There are terminator genes that won't breed true. And so that bull that hopped the fence not only bred with my cattle but effectively implanted defective genetic material that will miscarry.

      In regards to corn specifically, the GMO corn should probably not produce pollen. Or if it does, that pollen has to not screw up non-GMO corn and has to not incur any fee to Monsanto etc.

      If a farmer is just trying to grow his crops and wants nothing to do with the whole thing, these GMO crops often make that very difficult. If the GMO crops don't spread their DNA to non-GMO crops then they're fine. I really don't have a problem with GMO in theory. The issue is that in practice it tends to have a lot of problems that are not okay.

      --
      I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
    11. Re:More ambiguous cruft by Ambassador+Kosh · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There is poison in everything you eat. The skins of potatoes are naturally poisonous, the seeds on strawberries are naturally poisonous. However, the health benefits in these items outweigh the damage the poison does. Like everything how a poison impacts you depends on the dosage.

      Lots of poisons are safe for humans at the levels we ingest them. There is no way you could eat any food without dealing with some level of poison.

      The rat study you mentioned has LONG since been discredited and not been replicable by other experts in the field. The scientist that did the work is largely considered to be a fraud in the field and at this point articles published under his name are no longer accepted by reputable journals and he has resorted to destroying students reputations in the field instead by getting them to submit his articles under their names.

      The paper in question was retracted http://www.scientificamerican.... and is widely considered to be fraudulent.

      --
      Computer modeling for biotech drug manufacturing is HARD! :)
    12. Re:More ambiguous cruft by BCGlorfindel · · Score: 5, Informative

      The only issue there is that if pollen blows into my field, I don't think it is reasonable that I have to pay you a licensing fee.

      Take for example a bull that breaks through a fence and breeds with some of my cattle. Do I have to pay a breeding fee for you bull's "service" to my herd? No.

      And the thing is that Monsanto has done that in the past...

      I believe you've been misled. If you can cite and example that'd be great. The one that got me up in arms was back when Percy Schmeiser lost in court against Monsanto for exactly this. His case was famous at the time, until I brought it up with my family that actually are farming. He's basically the only case I'm aware of where the claim of cross pollination led to a lawsuit by Monsanto. The truth though, is that Percy collected his own seed from his crop normally. Then, his neighbour planted round-up ready Canola beside his own field. Contrary to the story that you and I are told by the GMO fear mongers, his field was NOT accidentally contaminated. Percy actually went along the edge of his field that was shared with his neighbour, and sprayed the entire strip with round up, killing everything he planted but keeping enough of seeds that made it to the edge of his field from his neighbour's. Percy then collected the surviving plants to plant as seed. He deliberately and purposely set out to acquire the GMO seed and went to extreme lengths to do so.

    13. Re:More ambiguous cruft by ranton · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Your average person has well-founded and valid opinions on what they know.

      I rarely find that to be true. Average people tend to have highly biased and largely un-researched opinions even within their area of expertise. My father is a farmer, but knows very little about GMOs. He does have very strong opinions in favor of GMOs but if you investigate you quickly find there isn't much basis for those opinions other than it saves him money (you would get a blank stare if you said the term bio-diversity for instance). I had a brother in law who was an auto-mechanic although he still wasn't a very good source of information when choosing a vehicle. Far too many personal biases.

      It is very rare for people to thoroughly research almost anything. I remember people saying how things like home ownership, marriage, and parenting are things you simply cannot properly prepare for until you experience it. Although I have done all three and it really was possible to research and plan for all three well enough that there were no surprises. Although my daughter isn't even one year old yet, so I still have plenty of time to be wrong about that one.

      --
      -- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
    14. Re:More ambiguous cruft by johnlcallaway · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Have you ever spoken to farmers?? The half dozen farmers I've talked with all say the same thing (I grew up in a small, rural community), most of them were older than 60 and had been farmers for decades. They don't have the time, money, or resources to collect, process, and store seeds, they always buy them. These guys LOVE GMO crops because of the increased yields and predictability.

      It may be an extremely small sample and anecdotal, but it makes a lot of sense. I recall having small gardens growing up, and we always bought seeds every year. Plus, farmers want consistent crops every year and better yields if they can, they don't want some wild child of something they started growing 10 years ago when Monsanto has created a new product that makes more money for them.

      I would think a sterile plant would be a good thing for modern farmers, who want's corn stalks popping up in a soy bean field. Farmers rotate their crops, I used to remember scenes like this growing up. I don't see them as often now.

      --
      I rarely read replies, it's my opinion and if you thought about your opinion a little more, I'm OK with that.
    15. Re:More ambiguous cruft by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Interesting

      There is no health benefit to taking a perfectly useful plant and adding more poisons to it.

      There could be, if the poison displaces a chemical pesticide that is more harmful. Bt corn is an example.

      We already grow more than enough food.

      Then higher productivity can allow us to grow the same food on fewer acres, leaving more fallow land for wildlife.

    16. Re:More ambiguous cruft by BCGlorfindel · · Score: 4, Informative

      I can second you anecdotes with my own. Having grown up on farms I've had the exact same experience. I went off to university when Monsanto was just rolling out round-up ready Canola. I got pretty worked up over their patent policies and was eager to reminisce with all the guys back home who where farming. Turns out universally they were all more than happy to buy Monsanto's seeds as it just made them far more money than other approach. More over, as pointed up thread, the only ones Monstanto was suing were guys trying to use Monsanto's seed for free, and the guys willing to buy the seed had no sympathy.

    17. Re:More ambiguous cruft by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Have you ever spoken to farmers?? The half dozen farmers I've talked with all say the same thing (I grew up in a small, rural community), most of them were older than 60 and had been farmers for decades. They don't have the time, money, or resources to collect, process, and store seeds, they always buy them. These guys LOVE GMO crops because of the increased yields and predictability.

      This stuff is great, until we find out we are cultivating super-weeds. Google "Roundup Ready resistance". Eventually, we'll have to find a different chemical to control weeds. Then another. Then another.

      Complete side note, but organic farmers have started using water jets to get rid of weeds. Even more they have been adding things like corn gluten to the pressure weeders to fertilize at the same time as they cut. The gluten helps kill the weeds too.

      The downside is that it's at least a two person job. Someone has to drive while another aims and shoots. No known resistance has been developed to a high pressure water jet.

      Disclaimer: I am not anti GMO. I am however, concerned about pesticide resistance, and the concept of engineering plants to allow us to use more pesticides, which is a fine way to accelerate resistance. I also eat organic as much as possible because I think it tastes better - but harbor no delusions of us feeding the world that way.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    18. Re:More ambiguous cruft by ultranova · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'd like to know who first got the public all excited about the terminator gene. It's obviously a self-regulating problem; if the terminator gene somehow crosses over into another population, those plants don't breed and they don't carry the gene forward.

      Scenario: terminatored corn is widely succesful and replaces regular corn. Something bad happens to stop Monsanto from delivering more seends. What will the farmers plant? They can't use seeds from terminatored corn since they're infertile, and they can't plant regular corn seeds since they no longer have any. Mass starvation follows.

      Planned obsolescence in vital systems is a really bad idea.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

  2. Blame politics by kruach+aum · · Score: 5, Insightful

    That's because the general public get most (all) of their information about science from sources that have a particular goal in mind when it comes to how that information should be interpreted. First a fear is created, because fear sells, and then they offer a politics based (rather than facts based) answer, because relief also sells.

    Further, people won't listen to scientists, but they will listen to news anchors and politicians, because fiction is far easier to understand than facts.

    1. Re:Blame politics by sumdumass · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It doesn't help when scientists pushing the fear also push the politics.

      Also, its not fiction that is easier to understand. Its how it does or does not impact your daily life directly or indirectly enough for the near future. That is what politicians and news anchors do.

  3. Re:Are GMOs safe by Ambassador+Kosh · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Do you mean Bacillus thuringiensis toxin?

    You mean the toxin that is classified as organic and can and is sprayed on plants as an organic pesticide?

    You know the one where the only way to harm a human with it is to inhale it as a powder and in that form it causes the same damage as inhaling almost any other powder. Even inhaling sugar as a powder is bad for you.

    That toxin is COMPLETELY inert inside humans. However insects and some fish can cleave the protein and can then be killed by the toxin.

    The organic version is sprayed on plants, washes off and damages local aquatic life. The GMO version does not wash off and has no impact on local aquatic life. The GMO version also concentrates in the parts of the plant we don't eat.

    The organic way of using BT toxin is worse in ALL WAYS than the GMO version.

    --
    Computer modeling for biotech drug manufacturing is HARD! :)
  4. Re:The public thinks? by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 4, Insightful

    That's news to me. I didn't think the public could think :P

    Pro tip: you're a member of the public.

  5. Re:The Public - who cares? by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Who cares what the fucking public think? They're the worthless sheep that keep us locked in a pathetic 2-party system,

    When talking about the public, you should use the pronoun "we", not "they".

  6. whose payroll is the scientist on? It matters by raymorris · · Score: 4, Insightful

    >. Politicians push fear, and then lord their position and power over the people who they nominally serve.

    Which one should keep in mind when looking at science. Scientists being paid by a grant from Phillip Morris (tobacco) or All Gore tend to publish conclusions that are likely to get the grant renewed. A lot of people I work with are top experts
    in their field, whose jobs are dependant on a federal grant getting renewed. Guess how many of them published information that makes the grantor unhappy last year. Hint - it's a round number.

    1. Re:whose payroll is the scientist on? It matters by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 5, Informative

      > A recent GAO report said that $106 BILLION was spent by the US government through 2010 on global warming research

      Im staring at the Forbes report at http://www.whitehouse.gov/site.... Note that a lot of that money is involved in "clean" energy projects which have dual or triple use: reducing pollution, improving arable land, water management, emergency planning for coastal areas, and switching from unsustainable fuel resources to sustainable, less greenhouse gas producing fuels.

      I'm also afraid you're comparing apples to oranges. Most of the federal budget is not "advertising" to compare to oil companies, it's a great deal of real work with multiple scientific. urban development, and economic uses. If you compare it to the amount of money oil companies spent on drilling for new oil or on research to expand their markets, you'd have a better scale.

    2. Re:whose payroll is the scientist on? It matters by CaymanIslandCarpedie · · Score: 4, Informative

      That is true, but without understanding what the GAO report was covering it can be a bit misleading. Here is a bit of a graphic summary. http://www.gao.gov/key_issues/...

      First it is important to note the 106B was over like a 20 year period. It is also important to note, that 106B wasn't all for science (in fact only the minority of it was). That number was the full amount they could attribute towards any are of work on climate change. In the above link the break it down into science, technology, and international assistance. So this covers FAR more than what one would first think of if they were told 106B went to climate change research. Research into clean coal? That would be counted. Nuclear, that would be counted. Research into better batteries for electric cars, that is counted. Research in to solar/wind, that is counted.

      You can dig into the reports further to get a more detailed understanding. The point is simply saying climate change got 106B may sound like "oh my god climate researchers are getting rich!!!!". However, when you understand what the report really covers (long period of time and only a small portion goes to what you'd normally thing of as climate research) it does change the perspective a bit.

      --
      "reality has a well-known liberal bias" - Steven Colbert
    3. Re: whose payroll is the scientist on? It matters by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I've read a lot of journal articles, and granted, they arne't Science or Nature since I don't have expertese in those fields, but more like IEEE transactions. In those journals, I'm always shocked as to the piss poor quality of the a lot of the articles. And honestly, some of the most interesting articles I've read weren't in top tier journals. They went against the mainstream and IEEE wouldn't touch them. If you think groupthink isn't a thing in science, you're massively naive.

    4. Re:whose payroll is the scientist on? It matters by dywolf · · Score: 4, Informative
      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
  7. Re:pesticides are expensive, so you buy resistant by jcupitt65 · · Score: 5, Informative

    That's not always correct. Roundup-ready crops sold by Monsanto (for example) are not resistant to pests, they are resistant to herbicides. They let you spray MORE, not less.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glyphosate

  8. Re:More ambiguous cruft: hardly. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I think paycheck corruption in science today is even worse, like with the CAGW promoters.

    IF that were true, then the climate scientists who know the "truth" would be able to get all the grants they want from the fossil fuel industry and "clean up" or least get a paycheck.

    See, if global warming were in fact a hoax or even over-blown, the oil, gas, and coal industries would be handing out grants like candy with their unlimited money. I wold expect to see the battles like the cigarette industry put up.

    But they are not. They only thing they have is press releases and propaganda - usually attacking AGW on political grounds (like increased taxes or some other nonsense.)

    Which tells me that there is nothing there scientifically for them.

    The evidence is conclusive: human caused global warming is fact.

  9. Re:how many times have scientists been wrong? by naasking · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I notice that you don't balance how many times scientists have been wrong against how many times they've been right. What do you suppose a scientist's wrong:right ratio is as compared to a non-scientist's?

  10. Re:More ambiguous cruft: hardly. by ideonexus · · Score: 5, Informative

    Exactly this.

    What's funny is that when Climate Change Skeptics, the Koch Brothers, funded their own study and planted an outspoken critic of climate change science as the director of the research, that skeptic ended up becoming a believer and published an Op-Ed in the NYT explaining how wrong he had been to not accept the science.

    But somehow people still find a way to rationalize it all away as just the invention of a bunch of wealthy limousine-riding scientists keeping down those poor, defenseless oil companies.

    --
    i ~ Celebrating Science, Cyberspace, Speculation