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Farmers Struggling With High-Tech Farm Equipment

An anonymous reader writes: Farming is a difficult profession. One of the constants throughout the generations is that if you're working out in the field all day, machinery eventually breaks down. Farmers tend to deal with this harsh reality by becoming handy at basic repair — but that strategy is starting to fail in the digital age. Kyle Wiens, founder of iFixit, writes about the new difficulties in repairing your broken tractors and other equipment. Not only do you often need experience in computer software, but proprietary technology actively blocks you from making repairs.

"Dave asked me if there was some way to bypass a bum sensor while waiting for the repairman to show up. But fixing Dave's sensor problem required fiddling around in the tractor's highly proprietary computer system—the tractor's engine control unit (tECU): the brains behind the agricultural beast. One hour later, I hopped back out of the cab of the tractor. Defeated. I was unable to breach the wall of proprietary defenses that protected the tECU like a fortress. I couldn't even connect to the computer. Because John Deere says I can't." Wiens also tells us about Farm Hack, a community that has sprung up to build a library of open source tools and knowledge for dealing with high-tech modification and repair in agriculture.

194 comments

  1. Regulation Strikes again by Isaac-1 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    This is likely one of those cases where the manufacturer is not to blame, instead it is likely federal regulations that require these systems to be locked down and only adjusted by authorized personel, I know this is the case with many new industrial engines where emissions compliance requires that field technicians no longer be able to adjust certain parameters, instead all these settings are locked down at the factory.

    1. Re:Regulation Strikes again by Viol8 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It might be regulations, but I doubt the manufacturers are too cut up about having to supply their own service personal, equipment and parts at a high price to solve these problems.

      In europe things went the opposite way , with cars anyway. The EU mandated anyone must be able to interrogate the ECU, clone a keyless fob and service the vehicle via the ODBC2 port. Which is fine, except that now any thief with some cheap equipment can break into keyless cars, clone a key fob within a minute and drive away with it.

    2. Re:Regulation Strikes again by BreakBad · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I hate Vogon food.

    3. Re:Regulation Strikes again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Perhaps EVERYTHING on a farm ought to be open source, given this problem.

    4. Re:Regulation Strikes again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It's all in the name of Emissions.

      I've worked for a competitor of Deere and we spent an inordinate amount of time putting in protections so that if people tried to bypass emissions equipment the engines would show a fault.

      It's to combat the types of guys that would just go in and cut off the catalytic converter.

    5. Re:Regulation Strikes again by ColdWetDog · · Score: 4, Insightful

      While this is undoubtedly true for the engines, for the rest of the machine it may or not be valid. But TFA misses one enormous issue - legal liability. Look at that 100K John Deere combine. It grosses something like 20,000 pounds and has enough horsepower to flatten a pickup truck. It's all controlled by a couple of joysticks in air conditioned cab. It's pretty simple to use.

      A lot of thought went into to putting it all together. The 'unnecessary' hydraulic sensor might be the one that keeps the disks from slicing into the cab when the boom is up. Or some other obscure but important safety feature. Yes, farmers have been fixing things since time immemorial. And farmers have been slicing off various bits of their own (or, more often, their kids) anatomy because they bypassed safety features. If you have a machine with a couple of dozen motors, 100 sensors and one giant hydraulic pump, you don't advocate Joe Farmer randomly disconnecting things. Nanny state has been pretty active trying to lessen the amount of carnage done to farm workers. I am unsure of the success, but a lot of the sensors in any industrial device are designed to prevent excessive stupid from occurring.

      Now, Deere can, and likely should, have a come to Jesus moment where they actually work with the end user - better diagnostics. Redundant sensors. FedEx the part to the farm rather than the dealer. End user serviceable components. Lots of other things. And it looks like the market is actually working like it's supposed to (I guess that happens). The complicated big rigs aren't as in demand as simpler things. If Deere is smart, then they will learn from their mistakes. If they're not, they'll go bankrupt^Hget a bailout from Congress.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    6. Re:Regulation Strikes again by tibit · · Score: 5, Informative

      This isn't actually the case. I know of no Federal regulation that disallows adjustments by a particular party. All that the regulations require is that there be no unauthorized modifications to the system. They don't place the onus on anyone to prevent such modifications in any particular way.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    7. Re:Regulation Strikes again by tibit · · Score: 3, Interesting

      That's perfectly fine though: the fault indicator lights are there to indicate that there's a problem. Things get ugly when you decide not to run the engine anymore when such "tampering" is detected. Or, worse, if the emissions equipment is replaced by properly functioning aftermarket parts that don't have proper authentication circuitry and/or firmware.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    8. Re:Regulation Strikes again by YetanotherUID · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yeah, because an industry with one of the highest equipment-related death/injury rates for its workers and habitually and flagrantly skirting protections designed to protect the public from harm is one that should be allowed to regulate itself. GREAT IDEA!

    9. Re:Regulation Strikes again by houghi · · Score: 2

      Interesting is that ODB has its origin in the USofA (California). They mandated OBDII 1996. Europe followed in 2001 (wikipedia)

      (Bluetooth) dongles are widely available, just as software to read the data (Free, open and closed) for all major OS.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    10. Re:Regulation Strikes again by wisnoskij · · Score: 4, Insightful

      More to the point, if ti was regulations it is regulations that agribusiness spent millions campaigning on.

      --
      Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    11. Re:Regulation Strikes again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So what you say is that it is Putin's fault then?

    12. Re:Regulation Strikes again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Consider the alternative.

      Key fobs have PGP keys, and have to sign a request to start the car for authentication.

      Thief with a bit of mechanical know how and a raspberry pi flips some dip switches--corresponding to the model of the car--installs the RPi where the car's computer used to be, and sends the RPi a "start engine" request via wifi.

      Kind of like putting a new harddrive with an unencrypted filesystem into a stolen computer that once had one.

      Why not just make theft of vehicles illegal (which it is) and catch thieves (which should be easy... automated license plate scanner -> does the make / color match government records? Was the VIN used to obtain that plate one that a manufacturer told the government it produced? Was that VIN from a stolen or wrecked car? Now the car is significantly less valuable--only useful as parts, which can be separately audited).

    13. Re:Regulation Strikes again by cdrudge · · Score: 5, Informative

      (Bluetooth) dongles are widely available, just as software to read the data (Free, open and closed) for all major OS.

      Dongles are cheap. The information they give you is fairly useless in diagnosing specific hardware faults, sensor codes, etc unless you have the factory proprietary software.

      Want to modulate the ABS module to purge air and replace the brake fluid? Sorry.

      Want to see which wheel is giving you the TPMS low pressure error even though they are all properly inflated? Sorry.

      Want to see specifically why a code is being thrown that disengages the AWD? Sorry.

      Well, sorry for me unless I get a Tech2 scanner maybe for $1500 used, or $4000 new off fleabay.

    14. Re:Regulation Strikes again by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      While this is undoubtedly true for the engines, for the rest of the machine it may or not be valid. But TFA misses one enormous issue - legal liability.

      Good point. Farm equipment, like most industrial equipment, is getting more and more complex. Tractors now drive themselves as the follow a master tractor around a farm. As a result, it becomes necessary to make sure the control systems perform exactly as designed and not let people make changes for whatever reasons because they don't know what will happen.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    15. Re:Regulation Strikes again by Xest · · Score: 1

      "Which is fine, except that now any thief with some cheap equipment can break into keyless cars, clone a key fob within a minute and drive away with it."

      Are you sure that's actually true given that car crime has seen massive decline in recent years? Even if true it's obviously not having any negative impact in practice.

    16. Re:Regulation Strikes again by mlts · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It is both. Some manufacturers use the added regulations (take DEF and DPF mandates for example for diesel emissions) in order to ensure repeat business for their repair shops, as well as planned obsolescence when the ECU dies and there isn't another to be found, as it was an ASIC that was fabbed only for a span of 2-3 model years and even an ECM firmware upgrade wouldn't change that.

      The Feds mandated things like nonadjustable governors so one can't adjust the RPM of some items unless done manually by twisting the throttle rod. However, some companies are happy to take that even further to ensure people come back to get stuff fixed.

      There is blowback to this. For example, a RV refrigerator that runs on propane made 10-15 years ago which uses a pilot light can cost more than a new refrigerator, just because it requires no 12 volt current to keep the contents cold, while newer models often have issues with the control board.

      How does this get fixed? With state and federal governments still looking to add more regulations compounded with companies that want their own "DRM" to keep the next quarter looking good, the only real solution will be for relatively small startups to hit the market with simple products that do the same thing, but don't have all the bells and whistles. For fridges, companies like Unique Gas Products come to mind, who may not have appliances that have the latest 5000 pixel count in the LCD screen... but keep the contents in the fridge cold without issue.

      The future will probably wind up people having to fudge to get around various regulations. For example, the EPA ban on wood stoves will just mean that a building gets built with a propane stove, which gets swapped out for a wood stove the second the inspectors leave. If this isn't the case, there will be a heavy market for people to purchase jailbreaks for their appliances and vehicles... with bounties going up as steep as what was paid for access to root on the latest Samsung devices.

    17. Re:Regulation Strikes again by jythie · · Score: 1

      Regulation might be a nice pretext here, but I am skeptical that manufacturers were forced against their will to close their systems so that 3rd party shops could not repair them or produce replacement parts. Given how powerful their lobby is, any regulation that is in place was in no small part written by those same manufacturers.

    18. Re:Regulation Strikes again by mlts · · Score: 1

      Dongles are cheap, but only give generic info for the most part. A lot of it is hidden behind a wall that only the car maker's own software can access.

      For example, on a Mercedes Sprinter, there is one level of resetting fault codes that can be done by a Scanguage. Then there is a different level if the vehicle goes into limp-home mode, it takes a different type of reset to fix that.

      Of course, EPA regulations come into play so it isn't all the auto maker's fault. For example, they are forced to have a mechanism which permanently disables the vehicle if the pee can on newer diesel engines runs empty.

    19. Re:Regulation Strikes again by CaptBubba · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yeah if the ECU was shutting the tractor down when the sensor when out it likely was important for proper operation or safety. For the most part if it is an unimportant sensor the new machines will complain about it but let you continue operating it, perhaps with the system controlled by the sensor disabled or limited in some manner. Similarly to how a new car will show a warning light or enter limp mode for minor sensors being out but refuse to crank for more important ones.

      Everyone thinks "oh its a tractor, it is simple" but these things are very, very far removed from the things you would see in quaint rural settings shown in movies. It is an extremely complex, powerful, and dangerous machine and they do kill people with depressing regularity. The controls for the hydraulic system are something you really don't want to have people monkeying around with as overpressure/overtemp could cause damage to the implement and rams or even (and I've seen this happen) a leak the engine compartment which sprays onto the exhaust manifold totals the machine at best or kills the operator at worst. Underpressure could cause the implement to drop unexpectedly and dump a few tons of steel and blades on an unfortunate worker or cause overheating (as some systems use the hydraulic system to run the engine fan).

      The real problem in this is that the sensor keeps going out for whatever reason. Deere parts aren't cheap but he should talk with his equipment dealer about having a spare on hand at the farm that he can swap out himself if it fails. Takes two days waiting for the part down to an hour or so to swap it.

    20. Re:Regulation Strikes again by Echo_Hotel · · Score: 2

      Thats some lovely F.U.D. there. Truth is new combines aren't any safer than the old ones were just harder to repair, forcing cash and time strapped farmers to run malfunctioning equipment oftentimes not even knowing precisely what is wrong now that everything is obfuscated behind proprietary software.

      P.S. Deere has been closing factories all over in addition to seasonal shutdowns lately. I think the magical mystical invisible hand of market forces is a little much to hope for, given other historic examples in the manufacturing sector.

    21. Re:Regulation Strikes again by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 2

      There's clearly a market for tractors and equipment, no matter how modern and complex, to be easily and cheaply field-repairable by farmers, and most especially, quickly.

      I wonder if it will happen.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    22. Re:Regulation Strikes again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm guessing you missed the part where the OP said this was in the UK.

    23. Re:Regulation Strikes again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Given what a small percentage of people actually farm, is it really wise to annoy the people that feed us?

    24. Re:Regulation Strikes again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's to combat the types of guys that would just go in and cut off the catalytic converter.

      Which is a number of farmers, who see that kind of thing as useless waste that gets in their way.

    25. Re:Regulation Strikes again by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 3, Interesting

      "Which is fine, except that now any thief with some cheap equipment can break into keyless cars, clone a key fob within a minute and drive away with it."

      Are you sure that's actually true given that car crime has seen massive decline in recent years? Even if true it's obviously not having any negative impact in practice.

      Actually, I've recently read several articles on the Intertubes supporting GP statement -- search for: keyless ignition problems. You are also correct in that car thefts were in steep decline over the past years (one article mentions this specifically) but it's due to RFID chips in the keys and Immobilizer systems that require a successful ping from that chip to start the car, or enable the fuel pump - in the case of Hondas, perhaps others.

      Several (many?) auto have the ability to program blank fobs from the diagnostic port. Thieves still have to break *into* the car however - usually by breaking the glass. And since cars with keyless ignition do *not* have column locks (because, no key) ... Car Theft Made Easy(ier) 101.

      I was researching this because I'm not a fan of keyless ignition [aka: Push (Button|to) Start ] , especially as it's becoming more and more standard on all trim lines, and I wanted to know if vendors are/would offer keyed options or workarounds. I carry the keys for my two Hondas on my keychain in my back pocket and wouldn't be able to if they were those bulky fobs. Plus driving around with the keys in my pocket seems uncomfortable. In addition to all the real/potential problems reported about keyless ignition and/or fobs - and extra expense of the system.

      I'm not a Luddite, just don't really buy into the "problem" this is suppose to be solving. My keys are small, reliable and dead simple to use. Keyless ignition as an option is fine, but as a requirement is simply stupid.

      --
      It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    26. Re: Regulation Strikes again by SETY · · Score: 3, Informative

      The engine is just one "node" on the bus and in my experience isn't really a problem very often. Typical problem would beit something else on the bus, ie switch for hydraulic valve stepper motor.
      There are basically 4 tractor companies and they are all world-wide, so yes EPA matters and has to be met, as well as everywhere else.
      When your tractor is down and rain is coming you want quick solutions.
      New tractors have a big lcd screen, they could have more online solutions and all documentation, etc. but service is where dealerships make their money and they want you to call them and pay 120$ an hour to have a kid sit in the cab with a laptop and read how to fix it in JD service advisor. A customer can't legally buy the tools the dealer has to fix there tractor. This is wrong and should be illegal.
      The arguments about emissions tempering are valid, but there are existing laws for that, just because one way is easier to enforce doesn't make it right.

    27. Re:Regulation Strikes again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Don't know many farmers or ranchers do you?

      Annoyed is the normal state of mind for them, unless they're hunting, fishing, maybe drinking (Plenty of tea totaling baptist farmers/ranchers out there).

    28. Re:Regulation Strikes again by Viol8 · · Score: 2

      Most stolen cars are shipped off in containers to countries where no one gives a shit. Its not like they're driven through a port. Ditto parts.

    29. Re:Regulation Strikes again by AndroSyn · · Score: 1

      If you have a VW group car, there is always VCDS. You can usually get started with a $250 USB cable and their software. It's pretty much the recommended tool/software to use for Volkwagens.

    30. Re:Regulation Strikes again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Wanted to post this. Grew up in a small village. More farmers than anybody else. If they could, they would disable shit. An example: Wood-splitting machine requireing two buttons be pressed at the same time? Zip-tie one down. Guy got his free arm ripped off and bled out before anybody could find him.

    31. Re:Regulation Strikes again by afidel · · Score: 3, Funny

      There are three truths in life:
      Jewish people do not recognize Jesus as the Messiah.
      Protestants do not recognize the Pope as the leader of the Christian faith.
      Baptists do not recognize each other in the liquor store.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    32. Re:Regulation Strikes again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      FedEx the part to the farm rather than the dealer.

      I happen to have some knowledge of Deere's "machine down" shipping process. It's next-day (Tues-Sat) delivery guaranteed by 8 AM to the dealer (some exceptions for dealers in areas especially distant from civilization, but that's maybe a couple dozen across the country). Most delivery drops take place between 1 and 7 AM (local time).

      I also know for a fact that Deere has mobile parts vans that are active during planting and harvest seasons that follow groups of rental/shared equipment. Those used to throw the logistics company's software for a loop every 6 months. But they've fixed all that up now. Deere "machine down" service is pretty much as efficient as you can make it when you have to haul anything from a gasket to an engine block a distance of 1500 miles overnight.

      Their competition is less organized. I won't go into specifics, but suffice it to say that Deere has "it" together and not all of their competitors do.

    33. Re: Regulation Strikes again by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      I suect that once standard they are actually less expensive. Moving parts are rarely the cheaper option.

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
    34. Re:Regulation Strikes again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      100k for farm equipment? How quaint...

      John Deere 9660: ~$250,000.00 And that's without impliments.

    35. Re:Regulation Strikes again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would seriously doubt it's regulation. John Deere also uses non-standard sizes for parts as simple as bolts. This way, the farmers can't find generic replacement bolts and have to buy them from Deere for 4 times the normal price.

    36. Re:Regulation Strikes again by stox · · Score: 2

      "1980: General Motors implements a proprietary interface and protocol for testing of the Engine Control Module (ECM) on the vehicle assembly line. The 'assembly line diagnostic link' (ALDL) protocol communicates at 160 bit/s Implemented on California vehicles for the 1980 model year, and the rest of the United States in 1981. The only available function for the owner is "Blinky Codes" that transmit the Diagnostic Trouble Code (DTC) with the blinking pattern of the "Check Engine" (MIL) light."

      --
      "To those who are overly cautious, everything is impossible. "
    37. Re:Regulation Strikes again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Given the small percentage of farmers that are an actual family farm instead of some god-awful huge agribusiness (complete with their very own bought-and-paid-for state politicians) who even cares at this point? It's one giant business screwing with another giant business. There are no little people left that you could piss off and have it matter in the grocery store line.

      Eat your factory food and like it. The farm wars were lost 30 years ago.

    38. Re:Regulation Strikes again by jopsen · · Score: 2

      Which is fine, except that now any thief with some cheap equipment can break into keyless cars, clone a key fob within a minute and drive away with it.

      Comon that's just because manufacturers implement security through obscurity. Nothing prevents the keyless fob from containing a private key. There are many ways to make a key infrastructure such that only authorized third parties can clone keys. Just this is manufacturer incompetence/carelessness.

    39. Re:Regulation Strikes again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (Bluetooth) dongles are widely available, just as software to read the data (Free, open and closed) for all major OS.

      Dongles are cheap. The information they give you is fairly useless in diagnosing specific hardware faults, sensor codes, etc unless you have the factory proprietary software.

      Want to modulate the ABS module to purge air and replace the brake fluid? Sorry.

      The ABS is a critical vehicle safety system. The last thing they need is to hand over direct control to end-users. (most of whom would have no idea what they are fiddling with)

      Want to see which wheel is giving you the TPMS low pressure error even though they are all properly inflated? Sorry.

      Ever consider that the vehicle ECU doesn't even know this information? On some vehicles all 4 sensors communicate back to a common antenna. The vehicle would know that one tire is low, but it doesn't know the location of that sensor that is reporting. Also, you can figure this out in 2 minutes with a tire pressure gage.

    40. Re:Regulation Strikes again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Posting AC, too lazy to log in anymore. Anyhow, an expensive scanner will allow you to do that (mfr specific, or with their updates on the generic scanner), but the bluetooth ones are surprisingly powerful. No, you're not likely to be able to modulate the ABS, but the live datastream should be there allowing you to diagnose TPMS or AWD issues potentially.

    41. Re:Regulation Strikes again by ArhcAngel · · Score: 1

      One of my first tech gigs was remanufacturing ECL's for AC/Delco. Our test console was a big box with nearly one hundred blinky lights! At least they were labeled so we knew what the blinky light was for. This was around 1989 and GM had transitioned a lot of their ECM's to SMT parts. So the ECM was a semi-flexible PCB with SMT IC's riding in a tin can (literally) coated in rubber cement. Vibrations from road conditions caused intermittent failures on a grand scale. By the time I left I was "diagnosing" over a thousand units a week. And by diagnosing I mean beating the ECM with the handle end of a screwdriver to make the blinky lights go off and spraying individual IC's with freeze spray to figure out which one had the cold solder joint.

      --
      "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
    42. Re:Regulation Strikes again by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      Fast-forward about 16 years, when OBD-II was federally mandated.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    43. Re:Regulation Strikes again by Rich0 · · Score: 2

      (Bluetooth) dongles are widely available, just as software to read the data (Free, open and closed) for all major OS.

      Dongles are cheap. The information they give you is fairly useless in diagnosing specific hardware faults, sensor codes, etc unless you have the factory proprietary software.

      Want to modulate the ABS module to purge air and replace the brake fluid? Sorry.

      The ABS is a critical vehicle safety system. The last thing they need is to hand over direct control to end-users. (most of whom would have no idea what they are fiddling with)

      How is this any different from being able to change the brake fluid in the lines the old fashioned way? If you do it wrong, your brakes will fail, and you could die.

      The solution isn't to make half the car unmaintainable. The solution is to simply publish the official service manuals, and the car owner is responsible for doing the job right or paying somebody else to do the job right. That has worked fine for 100 years.

    44. Re:Regulation Strikes again by nmr_andrew · · Score: 1

      AC beat me to it, I was going to ask where GP can get a combine for $100k, because I can make a fortune reselling them at twice that price and make a lot of farmers very happy at the same time. It's not uncommon for 10+ small-medium farmers to form a sort of co-op to share just a few pieces of large equipment.

    45. Re:Regulation Strikes again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also, you can figure this out in 2 minutes with a tire pressure gage.

      A tire pressure gauge won't tell you which sensor is malfunctioning when all the tires are properly inflated as was specified in the scenario you are referring to.

    46. Re:Regulation Strikes again by pubwvj · · Score: 1

      "This is likely one of those cases where the manufacturer is not to blame, instead it is likely federal regulations"

      Nope. You've not got a clue. It has nothing to do with federal regulations and everything to do with the software and hardware companies carefully guarding their profits. I speak with the insider knowledge of both a farmer, a programer, an engineer and a developer. Don't throw red herrings out like this.

      The solution is rejection. Reject the proprietary solutions that lock you in. You have choice as the buyer. Hack your own solution, put together open source solutions or use existing open source solutions. There are open source solution groups working on this sort of problem. Support their projects instead of John Deere and other lockers.

    47. Re:Regulation Strikes again by sjames · · Score: 1

      That's a load of crap from a greedy dealer. The EPA requires that the engine only runs for a limited time if the DEF tank runs dry, but nothing in the regs requires a special reset. They COULD make it reset automatically when you refill the tank and the EPA would be perfectly happy with that.

    48. Re:Regulation Strikes again by sjames · · Score: 1

      The usual litany of excuses for bad behavior.

      More likely, there is no safety related function to the sensor at all and it could be safely bypassed for a week or so during a busy season but for the manufacturer wanting to defeat market forces that might bring profits down.

      I'm not so sure the market is working quite right. What is happening is that the valuable new innovations are being actively shunned in favor of older less capable equipment that doesn't include dirty tricks. The market only works if that makes the dirty tricks go away. No sign of that yet.

    49. Re:Regulation Strikes again by bmajik · · Score: 1

      A 100k john deere combine is several years old.

      New, you'd be hard pressed to get one for under 400k I think.

      --
      My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
    50. Re:Regulation Strikes again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The real problem in this is that the sensor keeps going out for whatever reason. Deere parts aren't cheap but he should talk with his equipment dealer about having a spare on hand at the farm that he can swap out himself if it fails. Takes two days waiting for the part down to an hour or so to swap it.

      Yes, that's what bothered me reading this article. That is the obvious solution and it wasn't even considered. To me that's a sign that the author is stupid or trying to trick me.

    51. Re:Regulation Strikes again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Perhaps you should read more carefully. All the tires are properly inflated (verified with tire pressure gauge). The TPMS _sensor_ is reporting a fault. Which sensor? I don't know, guess I need to bring it to the dealer for them to hook up a proprietary scan tool.

    52. Re:Regulation Strikes again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's to combat the types of guys that would just go in and cut off the catalytic converter.

      That is better solved by surprise inspections. "Ah, a deliberately disabled catalytic converter! Here's a fine 1/3 the price of a new motor. . ."

      There is no reason to disallow home repairs & tinkering - other than "we want to be the only ones doing it, so we can charge a lot!"

      And there is a way out. Toss/sell the propriatary ECU, install a programmable one. Yes - the aftermarket has such things, because of racers that need to tune their engines & ECUs. You need to know a fair amount about engines to do such things - but you need to know a lot about engines to take one apart anyway.

    53. Re:Regulation Strikes again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And the solution is not "a button that cannot be zip-tied", but some education. Like spelling it out in the manual "two buttons, so your arm cannot be ripped off in the machine because both arms are outside pushing those buttons."

      If they zip-tie a button anyway, let'em die.

    54. Re:Regulation Strikes again by bennet42 · · Score: 1

      And then you need Harry Tuttle ( http://www.imdb.com/character/... ), rogue terrorist HVAC repairman.

    55. Re:Regulation Strikes again by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      And it will continue to work fine. People in all walks of life are getting fed up with this proprietary protectionist bullshit. It's anti-competitive by its very nature.

      30 years ago, the basic right to work on your own car would have never been questioned. Believe it or not, you have Hollywood and other copyright trolls to thank for this. DMCA and its ilk.

    56. Re:Regulation Strikes again by karnal · · Score: 1

      Some cars with keyless ignition do have column locks. My 2008 Lexus ES350 auto-locks the column:
      1. if I shut down the car before opening the door, the act of opening the door locks the column.
      2. if I shut down the car after opening the door, the car dings at me with the seatbelt chime, warning me that the column is unlocked. Upon shutting the door after exiting the car, the column locks.

      --
      Karnal
    57. Re:Regulation Strikes again by BosstonesOwn · · Score: 1

      Sorry there but both my nissans and my audi show me exactly which tires is low.

      Audi Q5 - even tells me when the wheel is slipping on the display
      Nissan Pathfinder - shows all 4 tire pressures.
      GT-R Shows which tires are slipping and even shows me when it has to go into vectoring mode because the outside tires are slipping.

      --
      This package Does Not Contain a Winner
    58. Re: Regulation Strikes again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      4 maufacturers?

      Wikipedia begs to differ:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tractor_manufacturers

    59. Re: Regulation Strikes again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What exactly would be Deere's motivation to hurt a farmer's production? Deere depends on the long term financial health of farmers to sell this expensive equipment. The dependencies are so tightly linked that Deere can know a year in advance that they need to increase or decrease production at a factory.

      I think you've been buying into a lot of political noise divorced from on the ground reality.

    60. Re: Regulation Strikes again by sjames · · Score: 1

      The motivation is to make sure the farmer can't hire a 3rd party to put in inexpensive 3rd party parts instead of paying the dealer 'deerly'.

      The rest is a side effect.

    61. Re:Regulation Strikes again by MercTech · · Score: 1

      Actually, it can be a violation of federal statutes.
      Use of personal reprogramming devices can be construed as modifying the exhaust system of a vehicle which is a violation of EPA and NHTSA rulings. That is the law you can be fined under if you take out your catalytic converter. I know, it is a stretch, but some states will fail you on your safety check if there is evidence in the on-board computer of reprogramming.

      I have a feeling that the lock out of owners being able to access engine control computers on farm equipment is more driven by insurance companies and liability laws. A bit like the stickers ubiquitous on electronics; "breaking this seal voids your warrantee". And industrial machinery companies spend huge amounts of money on litigation insurance as they can be held liable if their machine is "easily capable of being modified to an unsafe operation condition".

      --
      NRRPT/RCT
    62. Re:Regulation Strikes again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So either Iowa will not become a big primary state or DRM for farm equipment will get fixed.. I'm dreaming I know.

    63. Re:Regulation Strikes again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      that's just evolution in action

  2. This would be easier to fix... by WoodstockJeff · · Score: 1

    ... if the farm equipment ran iOS. You'd just have to submit a bug report, and it would be fixed in the next update!

    Oh, wait... That would be when iFarm 12.4 gets released.... and that's not scheduled until the iPlow 9S is announced...

    1. Re:This would be easier to fix... by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      Or they delete your bug report and pretend nothing is wrong until the patch/OS update is released.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
  3. ...bypassing a bum sensor? by KevReedUK · · Score: 2

    Assuming he means a sensor to detect whether the driver is sat and the seat, surely a heavy enough bag ought to do the job?!?

    --
    Just my $0.03 (At current exchange rates, my £0.02 is worth more than your $0.02)
    1. Re:...bypassing a bum sensor? by jandrese · · Score: 1

      Given that it is a safety feature, I'm guessing they made it difficult to bypass on purpose. On the other hand, knowing how farmers actually work that could be quite an inconvenience if the machine shuts off every time you stand up for a second to just get a better line of sight on something. However, I'm surprised he opted for the "patch the software" route first, since simply shorting the pressure sensor with a resistor would probably work just as well and be far closer to a farmer's existing skillset.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    2. Re:...bypassing a bum sensor? by quetwo · · Score: 1

      I'm just taking a guess that the sensor is broken -- so regardless of how much weight is on it, it sends the signal back to the computer that you aren't in the seat.

    3. Re:...bypassing a bum sensor? by Lumpy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Exactly, The guy in the article was not the brightest person. And yes you are correct, you can fool the sensor a lot easier than trying to change the code. and if you were really bright, you made it a plug in so that you can undo the chance in 10 seconds in case you DID need the factory to come and fix something.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    4. Re:...bypassing a bum sensor? by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      This IS NOT farmville. This is a farm.

      Kids these days. Never saw Green Acres on TV. They know nothing.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    5. Re:...bypassing a bum sensor? by tibit · · Score: 2

      The guy in the article is exactly the kind of an engineer I wouldn't hire. Doesn't see the forest for the trees. Code isn't always an answer, dummy.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    6. Re:...bypassing a bum sensor? by Barny · · Score: 1

      Depending on what currency you are converting to. For AU$, you are correct. But for US$, your two pence is worth 3c.

      As for the topic... yeah, I never planned to actually address it.

      --
      ...
      /me sighs
    7. Re:...bypassing a bum sensor? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Um, guys? Bum sensor = broken sensor. If you RTFA, it has to do with measuring something with the hydraulic system.

      Or you can not RTFA, and get modded up for no reason. Um, carry on.

    8. Re:...bypassing a bum sensor? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly, The guy in the article was not the brightest person.

      Well, he's the founder of iFixit, and you're... Lumpy. I'm gonna go with him on this one.

      Also, it's a hydraulic sensor, and nothing to do with the seats. Reading comprehension, people.

    9. Re:...bypassing a bum sensor? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The guy in the article is exactly the kind of an engineer I wouldn't hire. Doesn't see the forest for the trees. Code isn't always an answer, dummy.

      I'm sure that as CEO of a famous company that makes a few million every year that he's worried that you won't hire him.

    10. Re: ...bypassing a bum sensor? by KevReedUK · · Score: 1

      ... Should have guessed that would happen...

      My comment was something of a play on words, not so much a suggested fix to the problem in TFA. I, personally, haven't RTFA yet (crappy mobile internet connection).

      Here in the UK, bum is almost always used as a colloquialism for what Americans call their butt/ass/fanny/whatever...

      The humour intended in my comment appears to have been lost in translation.

      --
      Just my $0.03 (At current exchange rates, my £0.02 is worth more than your $0.02)
    11. Re:...bypassing a bum sensor? by jythie · · Score: 1

      Just because they are a good CEO does not mean they would be a good engineer, so it is still valid to point out why one might not wish to engage the services of an engineer with the same attitudes.

    12. Re:...bypassing a bum sensor? by jythie · · Score: 2

      I had read the original on Wired before it got posted to slashdot and could not figure out why people were talking about the seat in relationship to the sensor failure. I did not even consider people interpreting 'bum sensor' as 'sensor for your butt'

    13. Re:...bypassing a bum sensor? by mrchaotica · · Score: 2

      "Bum" means "broken," not "buttocks!"

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    14. Re:...bypassing a bum sensor? by wierd_w · · Score: 2

      Exactly-- Most sensors create a voltage or electric pulse signature of some kind.

      EG-- an O2 sensor produces a weak voltage signal.

      The ones that produce pulse signals (Like a camshaft positioning sensor) are probably not smart to try to fudge past, since they are required for the engine to fire properly.

      O2 and other emissions sensors? Easy to bypass. Just put a suitable voltage limiting resistor off the direct power line, and feed it to the sensor input lead. Booya. Engine things it has plenty of oxygen. (Just be sure that you have indeed limited the voltage to the correct value before you plug it in!)

      I assume in this case that it was an emissions sensor, like an exhaust sensor, or an O2 sensor, which was causing the engine to mis-regulate fuel or air supply, and killing the engine. Both are easily "cheesed".

    15. Re:...bypassing a bum sensor? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I assume in this case that it was an emissions sensor, like an exhaust sensor, or an O2 sensor, which was causing the engine to mis-regulate fuel or air supply, and killing the engine. Both are easily "cheesed".

      But we don't have to guess... it was... a... hydraulic sensor!

    16. Re: ...bypassing a bum sensor? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      [giggles] Fanny [/giggles]

    17. Re: ...bypassing a bum sensor? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some ag equipment has a sensor to make sure the operator is sitting in the seat and has the seatbelt fastened.

      This is a pain because the transmission switches into neutral if you lean over to get a better view. It's safe, until a 4 ton vehicle switches into neutral on a slope.

    18. Re:...bypassing a bum sensor? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most CEO's are drooling idiots. Better at bullshitting than thinking.

    19. Re: ...bypassing a bum sensor? by jythie · · Score: 1

      Wow. That sounds potentially pretty damn dangerous.

    20. Re:...bypassing a bum sensor? by sjames · · Score: 1

      They're on to that one though. Newer software will "sanity check" the sensor as well, so if it keeps reading the same value constantly, it will be deemed failed and the system shuts down until you replace the sensor AND reset the fault. That last bit can be challenging.

    21. Re:...bypassing a bum sensor? by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      I am assuming it was meant as a joke.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    22. Re:...bypassing a bum sensor? by OutOnARock · · Score: 1

      and in the UK fanny means pussy.

    23. Re: ...bypassing a bum sensor? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What you're missing is that riding lawn mowers have butt sensors to make sure the driver is sitting in the seat. It's a safety feature. If the driver falls out (like if on a steep hill), the mower instantly stops so it doesn't chop the driver to bits. I'm not a farmer, but I'd assume farming equipment has at least the same safety features available to any homeowner. That's why the joke was lost, because a butt/bum sensor is an actual safety feature that exists.

    24. Re: ...bypassing a bum sensor? by KevReedUK · · Score: 1

      TBH I knew that such sensors exist. They're even fitted as standard in my car, albeit with a somewhat different purpose, and will happily bitch that someone hasn't got their seatbelt on if it detects enough weight without the corresponding belt being fastened. Bugs the crap out of me when I have the car relatively loaded and whatever I've put on the seat is heavy enough to trip the sensor. At least it only beeps at me, rather than cutting the engine!

      --
      Just my $0.03 (At current exchange rates, my £0.02 is worth more than your $0.02)
  4. So, start a company making easy-to-fix equipment by NotDrWho · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If the demand is really there, then go fill it.

    --
    SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
  5. The best argument for Open Source is closed source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When features and ease of use are not the primary selling points, the detriments of closed source come to light.

  6. Lock Out All The Thingz!!!111 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    As a current IT guy who grew up on a large farm in the middle of nowhere, I can confirm that this is true. I've seen the dramatic changes and advances that technology has brought to the agricultural world, and almost universally it has been implemented such that you don't really own what you really own. Proprietary software, interfaces, programs, hardware -- you name it. And...it's not just tractors, combines, or other mechanical items -- it includes software/hardware to automate feeding lots, climate controls, GPS integration, etc. There's little to no open source, open specifications, API availability, or comprehensible documentation available. It's a clusterfscking nightmare, and requires you to take anything that breaks or malfunctions to a certified dealer to have them (and only them) work on it for whatever they deem the price to be that day.

    Now there are some really amazing advancements that have come along in agriculture over the past 20 - 30 years, but in many ways technology is turning the clock back on American agriculture and making it into the modern indentured servant model, especially when you add in all the BS that Monsanto has brought/caused in the agriculture world. I feel bad for my family as well as other farmers today.

    1. Re:Lock Out All The Thingz!!!111 by ColdWetDog · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Since farming is Big Business, would you expect much different? Most of these companies are really just putting a computer hooked up to some hydraulic doohicky on a piece of standard farming equipment or trying to use a standard commercial product such as GPS or a weather station in a farming situation. Open everything up and the next guy down the street can program the Aurduno and sell the same thing.

      What I'm a bit surprised hasn't happened is an analogy to boating. The NMEA standard allows manufacturers of various bits of marine electronics to talk to each other. After the usual startup problems of everyone's implementation being subtly different (Hi Garmin, you nitwits) it pretty much works as advertised. I still can't open up the guts to my chartplotter and do anything helpful, but if I don't like the way it is working, I can toss it and get another one and keep the rest of the network.

      Even the marine engine people are finally figuring this out. While they don't use the OBDC spec like cars (for whatever reason), it is now possible to buy the adapter and software for engine diagnostics (most of the time, except for you idiots at Suzuki). ** I suppose it will just take continuing pressure to get manufacturers to streamline these things.

      ** Just a friendly note to the people at Mercury and Yamaha. MS-DOS has not been a commercially acceptable operating system in some decades. Shall we ramp it up a bit?

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    2. Re:Lock Out All The Thingz!!!111 by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      The thing is, the stuff you describe is happening all over the business world, and farming has just become much more modern in terms of its financial model as well as how it operates.

      You don't own your seed? Well, many businesses don't own the software they use, and often the computers they run it on either. This is done for many reasons, including the cost of support and the way balance sheets are managed. At the place I work in I imagine that a LOT of the expensive hardware is on lease with $1 buyout options.

      I do think that there needs to be a rebalancing of things on the Monsanto front. However, that really goes several ways. Farmers shouldn't be paying for pollen that drifts onto their fields. On the other hand, farmers should be paying for seeds they obtained from Monsanto (including subsequent generations). Monsanto does need to build into their business model the fact that the genetic changes they make will tend to spread in the wild and at some point will become part of the natural state. The problem is that if you only let them profit off of seeds the first year then nobody will be able to afford the prices this would require, which means nobody will develop genetically modified foods, which means we'll lose the benefit of having them in the first place.

    3. Re:Lock Out All The Thingz!!!111 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      almost universally it has been implemented such that you don't really own what you really own.

      as EFF says, "If you can't open it, you don't own it." And now you brought up Monsanto, there's a group on FB "March Against Monsanto" where a friend posts all the shenanigans these guys do. Kind of makes me wonder if we will witness agriculture collapse. As a farmer you know "Food comes from farms, not supermarkets. If farmers go, we go."

    4. Re:Lock Out All The Thingz!!!111 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm posting as AC intentionally.

      An interesting point is that the newest Deere displays for equipment are running Linux under the hood. I don't have distribution details but the update process makes it pretty clear that it is running Linux.

    5. Re:Lock Out All The Thingz!!!111 by Reziac · · Score: 1

      Farming isn't entirely Big Business. Most farms, even large ones, are family-owned (tho most now sell their products to Big Business, because the smaller local markets couldn't make it anymore and are long gone). They may be thousands of acres, but that's because anywhere with a less than ag-friendly climate, it takes thousands of acres just to make a living wage. A lot of farmers have seasonal "town jobs" to make up the shortfall.

      But yeah, farming isn't a business where you can tolerate a lot of downtime. Crops typically have to be harvested in a very short window, and you can't be sitting there with that $300,000 tractor or combine unable to work, nor can you afford to buy a bunch of spares. Farmers need access to their equipment's guts and a reasonable ability to repair it on the spot, whether the problem is mechanical or electronic or even software. Otherwise crops are lost, farmers lose money, and the price of food goes up. And maybe John Deere goes out of business when farmers find a more user-friendly alternative.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
  7. Just wait for oil changes to come with DRM so by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just wait for oil changes to come with DRM so you need to go to the dealer and pay a lot more then jiffy lube.

    1. Re:Just wait for oil changes to come with DRM so by Lumpy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      BMW tried that. they specify a "special" oil for their cars and bikes. Luckily there are people that have higher IQ's than BMW engineers and you can use cheap synthetic 5W30 oil at a sane 7500mile oil change interval and be better off than their special BMW LL-01 at a 15,000 mile change.

      Also the BMW canbus, Kbus, and ODB-II is so hacked that you can do anything you want. GM, FORD and ther others also tried to lock down their data busses, but people hack them anyways and release the information.

      What is needed is a federal mandate that requlre all vehicle and equipment makers publish full details on their systems freely.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    2. Re:Just wait for oil changes to come with DRM so by fridaynightsmoke · · Score: 1

      BMW tried that. they specify a "special" oil for their cars and bikes. Luckily there are people that have higher IQ's than BMW engineers and you can use cheap synthetic 5W30 oil at a sane 7500mile oil change interval and be better off than their special BMW LL-01 at a 15,000 mile change.

      Or do as Europeans do, and use normal synthetic 5W30 oil at a 15,000-20,000 mile oil change interval.

      I don't get this American obsession with changing oil. Did you guys have really shitty motor oil before? UK oil change intervals have been 12,000+ miles/annual for decades.

      --
      This is a substitute for a clever sig that fits within the maximum number of characters.
    3. Re:Just wait for oil changes to come with DRM so by Agares · · Score: 1

      We have had this oil change interval just as long as you all. The issue though is that most people here get it changed earlier since the lube places tell them it needs to be changed every 5,000. I change my own oil since it is cheaper, and I know for sure I am getting good synthetic oil that way.

  8. to be honest, we dont have farms anymore. by nimbius · · Score: 4, Informative

    Most 'farms' in america are part of multinational food corporations like Cargill and ADM. They have motor pools to repair fleets of farm equipment like tractors and harvesters. firmware updates and engine maintenance are often performed by representatives of the companies that manufacture the equipment. IT and information systems departments handle things like GPS and computer software and hardware related to the harvest. small, agrarian farming is almost obsolete in America unless you look into how poulty and pork are raised. In these cases its small contract farmers working for larger entities like Hormell. Even these small farmers though are forced into the disposable economy of modernization that takes them out of the direct path of machines they can work on.

    Growing up on a farm in Ohio I remember having to weld equipment back together. I remember cleaning carbureators, hammering out feeders, and changing fluids. It was not fun, and it often meant drastic inefficiencies like having to leave hay out too long or work two days straight trying to get things in order after a break. In a lot of ways modern equipment is more resillient and not as prone to problems. these engine computers save a ton of fuel and effort. coupling, power takeoff, gears, speed, you name it and its probably in the hands of the computer. If i had to do it all over, I'd miss my old ford tractor but i wouldn't miss how it sputtered in cold weather.

    --
    Good people go to bed earlier.
    1. Re:to be honest, we dont have farms anymore. by halivar · · Score: 2

      And while it's sad to see this kind of farming go away, with its hard work and the romance we tend to associate with it, and we view the modern mechanized agricultural machine as an extension of a heartless corporate machine (which it is), it is nevertheless the means by which we feed the world and an ever-expanding population that the older, less efficient but more human approach ever could.

      And for the world's longest run-on sentence, I denounce myself.

    2. Re:to be honest, we dont have farms anymore. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I don't know how things are in Ohio, but around here (rural Illinois) most farms are family owned and run. The big companies sell the seeds, the chemicals, the supplies, and own the elevators. When a tractor breaks down in the field, it can take quite a while for a repair guy to show up. If you're trying to plant a field before the next storm front turns the ground to mud, you may not have that much time.

    3. Re:to be honest, we dont have farms anymore. by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 1

      The modern food multinationals use his romantic notion of farming to their advantage every day. Look at their advertising.

      We still give millions of dollars to fams because of that romantic notion. As usuall the corporate welfare goes to the guy in the CEO's office and not the guy in the overalls.

    4. Re:to be honest, we dont have farms anymore. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let's go back to plowing the fields with our bare hands!

    5. Re:to be honest, we dont have farms anymore. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Stop perpetuating the Myth. Most farms are still small family owned AND OPERATED businesses. Yes, they are bigger than they used to be--the acreage your average operator covers is pretty big compared to the ancient two-row days, but they are still closely tied to the land and family.

    6. Re:to be honest, we dont have farms anymore. by FooAtWFU · · Score: 1

      You can thank the FDR administration for setting us down this path with New Deal legislation explicitly designed to make food production more like factories, with standardized, homogenized output -- to say nothing of the price-supports and other handouts to big agribusiness which continue to this day...

      --
      The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
    7. Re:to be honest, we dont have farms anymore. by thellamaman · · Score: 2
      I'm not sure where you're getting your information. I've spent most of my life in agricultural areas, and virtually every farm I see is owned and run by local farmers. From the EPA:

      According to the 2007 Census of Agriculture, the vast majority of farms in this country (87%) are owned and operated by individuals or families. The next largest category of ownership is partnerships (8%). The "Corporate" farms account for only 4% of U.S. farms and 1 percent are owned by other-cooperative, estates or trusts etc. However, the term "family farm" does not necessarily equate with "small farm"; nor does a "corporate farm" necessarily mean a large-scale operation owned and operated by a multi-national corporation. Many of the country's largest agricultural enterprises are family owned. Likewise, many farm families have formed modest-sized corporations to take advantage of legal and accounting benefits of that type of business enterprise.

      http://www.epa.gov/oecaagct/ag...

    8. Re:to be honest, we dont have farms anymore. by Oligonicella · · Score: 1

      Middle of farming Missouri here and it's mostly family owned as well.

    9. Re:to be honest, we dont have farms anymore. by grimmjeeper · · Score: 4, Interesting

      That model has been changing over the last several decades. Both of my parents grew up in rural America in the 40's and 50's. Back then, a family could make a decent living on a quarter section (i.e. 160 acres). As my grandparents' generation started to retire in the 60's and 70's, consolidation had already started. Those four farms on a square mile plot turned into one farm with 3 retired families living in the houses. And consolidation continues. It's getting to the point where "family farms" should be measured in terms of square miles rather than acres. There's just no way to sustain a family on a small plot of land. The "family farms" are increasingly turning into small corporations with many employees managing huge tracts of land. They have to. Without being able to take advantage of economies of scale there's no way to make it.

      They're not losing the tie between land and family. The families that are there are still tied to the land. But the farms are losing families as farms consolidate. Only one of my cousins stayed in farming but all 3 of her kids left as soon as they graduated. And my extended family is pretty typical among modern families. A few of the kids stay on the farm but by in large most of them leave for more promising careers. The few that stay behind are taking over increasingly large farms.

      Last year, my 99 year old grandmother passed away and we went back to her home town in central North Dakota for the funeral. I grew up visiting there all the time so I had many fond memories of the town. I was shocked at how much of a shell of a town it had become. Most of the houses are now abandoned. Of the ones that aren't, most of them are owned by people who use them as hunting cabins a few weeks out of the year. My grandfather's garage where he worked on farm equipment for 63 years stands idle. Not enough business to make it worth keeping open. The K-12 school house on top of the hill once accommodated 50+ kids in my father's day. Now it stands empty. The few kids left go to a neighboring town that houses the consolidated school district. Driving towards town, many of the farm houses and barns I remember have long since been torn down to get access to farm the land underneath them. A few of them remain, with added shops and grain bins to handle the load of running more acres from a central location. The only reason this town is still alive is that the patriarch of a large family farm uses it as his home base. He was a class mate of my father's and has lived there his whole life. He's partially retired now but he built his family farm to cover some thousands of acres. It was the only way to survive. One of the neighboring towns is entirely abandoned. And if it hasn't been bulldozed and turned into more acreage, it's only because no one has gotten through the miles of red tape to get access to the land.

      My point here is that while you're correct that families are still owning and operating farms, the nature of the farms they own and operate is changing. Consolidation is happening. Families are leaving. Population density is decreasing because fewer people are needed to run the farms. And families are increasingly turning to incorporation in order to survive. Sure, they will always feel a kinship with the land. But the quaint notion of the "family farm" is in the distant past. And sure, the family farms aren't just subsidiaries of the corporate ag producers. However, they are corporations in their own right and operate on a scale that would have been unthinkable 100 years ago.

    10. Re:to be honest, we dont have farms anymore. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it is nevertheless the means by which we feed ourselves with great excess and waste and an ever-expanding population that the older, less efficient but more human approach ever could.

      if you think that this method feeds the world keep in mind the vast majority of the world population live in a concentrated section of eastern asia and diets primarily consist of rice mostly grown the old fashion way with huge labour pools, and sea food.

    11. Re:to be honest, we dont have farms anymore. by halivar · · Score: 1

      You forget another staple of Asian diets: soybeans. The US is the world's greatest supplier of soybeans, and we represent about half of China's soybean imports. Brazil might overtake us, some day, if they slash and burn of more of that pesky Amazon rain forest.

    12. Re:to be honest, we dont have farms anymore. by pubwvj · · Score: 1

      "Most 'farms' in america are part of multinational food corporations like Cargill and ADM."

      Said the person who has no clue... You are wrong. Most farms are small farms that have nothing to do with multi-national food corporations. You're confusing Numbers Of Farms with Percent Of Production.

  9. Re:So, start a company making easy-to-fix equipmen by Falos · · Score: 1

    Not when I can make more locking out users and forcing them to pay me every time they need to flip a switch or reset something.

  10. Obviously there is only one solution: More H-1bs by Baldrson · · Score: 2

    The solution to any problem is more immigration.

  11. Re:So, start a company making easy-to-fix equipmen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    If the demand is really there, then go fill it.

    I agree in principle, but good luck playing patent ball with the big ag companies of John Deere, Case IH, and others. Their legal departments will sue the hell out of your company over bogus patent-troll worthy, awesomely obvious & trivial patents before it ever gets off the ground.

  12. Re:So, start a company making easy-to-fix equipmen by tompaulco · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If the demand is really there, then go fill it.

    They would go broke. The reason all of the sensors are there is because when they didn't have sensors, and some farmer misused they tool and got hurt, they sued the manufacturer and won lots of money. So now there are sensors to make sure you have a bum in the seat, that you don't back up with blades engaged, etc., etc. Nothing is easy to maintain anymore because society no longer wants individuals to take responsibility for their own poor judgment.
    There is a difference between what a manufacturer should be responsible for and what an owner should be responsible for. For example: Engine throws a rod, causing shrapnel to injure operator. Manufacturer is responsible. Another example: Equipment allows operator to get off and stroll around in front of equipment and operator gets run over. Operator is responsible. Unfortunately, when operators misuse equipment through poor judgment, the courts side with the operator, so the manufacturer is forced to remove functionality from all users because one user is unable to exercise the commons sense required to operate the machinery.

    --
    If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
  13. Re:So, start a company making easy-to-fix equipmen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Not when I can make more locking out users and forcing them to pay me every time they need to flip a switch or reset something.

    Not if your customers have an alternative.

  14. Emissions Regulations by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Welcome to the world of government mandated emission standards. It takes so much electronics and computer control to make a tractor's diesel engine run as clean as the government demands that it's unfixable by the layman, and if they open it up to adjustment by the layman, guess who will be found at fault? The manufacturer.

    Additionally, the manufacturer doesn't want the layman fiddling with the settings, as what happens is the layman will turn up the power, which then causes warrentee claims. It's all the same as the automotive industry. Nothing new here. Ask duramax, powerstroke, and cummins owners about it.

    1. Re:Emissions Regulations by tibit · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This is bullshit. The manufacturer wants nothing open because it'll commoditize the stuff that rakes them boatloads of money. Regulation has nothing to do with it. The owner/operator of the equipment is responsible for maintaining it with adherence to emissions regulations. How she does it, is up to them.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    2. Re:Emissions Regulations by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 5, Insightful

      We have have people indoctrinated up to the eyeballs on Slashdot now. Somehow these one trick ponies are going to link whatever the problem is to government regulation.

    3. Re:Emissions Regulations by jythie · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Or the evil environmental movement crushing american business.

    4. Re:Emissions Regulations by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You've never dealt with the EPA on emissions, then, or for that matter, you local authorities on a smog check.

    5. Re:Emissions Regulations by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      My local authorities have never mandated that cars be as proprietary as possible. All they are interested in is certain measurable quantities of chemicals. They care squat for how that it actually accomplished.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    6. Re:Emissions Regulations by Dragonslicer · · Score: 1

      Welcome to the world of government mandated emission standards. It takes so much electronics and computer control to make a tractor's diesel engine run as clean as the government demands that it's unfixable by the layman, and if they open it up to adjustment by the layman, guess who will be found at fault? The manufacturer.

      Fine, let them use equipment that's cheaper to fix, as long as they also pay all of the cleanup costs associated with the extra pollution.

    7. Re: Emissions Regulations by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually a properly tuned carbeurated engine can be made to run more effeciency with less pollution than a computerized efi one. It just takes knowledge and a human touch. It is cheaper for manufacturers to put efi in and let the computer do the work off the assembly line. So we could make cars, trucks, farm equipment etc to that were easier to work on, it would just cost more

    8. Re: Emissions Regulations by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The bigger problem - even if what you're saying holds true for day one of carburated engine service - is that as time goes on, temperatures change and mixtures are now way off, the carburated engine cannot compensate. As the engine wears; other parts go into further need of maintenance - the simple carburetor can't possibly hold up.

      Unless you hook up something to monitor it.. and adjust it. Then you may as well EFI the thing.

  15. Why by MitchDev · · Score: 1

    Does farm equipment need these "protected computers" anyway?

    Just a license to print money for the manufacturer...

  16. Re:So, start a company making easy-to-fix equipmen by dpilot · · Score: 2

    The brand that doesn't lock farmers out will get more business, presuming that there is such a brand, and it makes decent equipment.

    Otherwise used equipment will start commanding a better price. Plus new business will emerge in buying too-broken-to-repair farm equipment, and managing to rebuild it with better facilities and spare parts.

    One of my more-fun tasks on the farm was going into the weeds to get three dead green-choppers and scabbing the parts to make one that worked.

    --
    The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
  17. Re:So, start a company making easy-to-fix equipmen by millertym · · Score: 2

    I lived on a farm growing up, and everyone I knew did 100% of their farm equipment repairs themselves. I can just picture how pissed these guys are when they can't fix something themselves lol. I wonder if there is a huge price increase on used 1980's-1990's tractors.

  18. its not just tractors for the farm. by sumdumass · · Score: 1

    I've seen this on heavy equiptment as well as other things. Usually, dusconecting the sendor altogether gets around the problem but sometimes it can create other issues. For instance, a coolant level sensor will shut the engine off if it reports both to much or to little coolant but disconecting it altogether will just throw a check engine light. An intake manifold pressure sensor can shut the enginr off too. Disconecting it will derate the power, stop the turbo from working and pretty much stop you from doing much of snything other than driving out of the field. A PTO sensor can do similat things but also cause impliments to not function corectly i had a planter that wouldn't allow the electronics to operatr the row size because it couldn't tell the PTO was on. It also derated the power of the engine.

    But its worse than that. Each injector has a programable ID and a profile that needs loaded into the ECM if replaced or rven swapped to another cylinder on some of the engines (cat ) and you need a special program with factory passwords. This is big money either way you go. Either a service call with a technician or about 10 grand for a program and dongle and a subscription to a website that will generate a password bases on engine identifyers that change.

  19. Re:So, start a company making easy-to-fix equipmen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If the demand is really there, then go fill it.

    Meet http://opensourceecology.org/

  20. When fixing your own machines is outlawed... by Sperbels · · Score: 1

    Only outlaws will have fixed machines....I'll just leave this here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

  21. Re:So, start a company making easy-to-fix equipmen by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 1

    The above comment to this is on regulation.

    Regulation protects the largest corporations more than it ever will protect your safety.

  22. Re:So, start a company making easy-to-fix equipmen by sumdumass · · Score: 2, Informative

    Farmers are historically bigoted on their equiptment. Its a matter of differences and dificulty in changing impliments. They won't just switch out because of the amount of relearning, differences in operationing, and costs of changing or replacing their attachments.

    Mega commercial farms may be different. But the farmer with less than 1000 acres will trend this way. One of my neighbors still mows and rakes hay with a tractor from 1968 because of this. He uses a different tractor to bail becaise the bailer broke and he found one for his planter tractor (mid 90's) at a better price that was faster than fixing the older one.

  23. Legally responsible Entity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Open source software which has not been tested by a legally responsible entity does not belong embedded systems which control large amounts of mechanical or electrical energy. Every piece of machinery is different. There are safety regulations, requirements to deal with electromagnetic interference, and failure mode analyses and effects for which the software is a critical component.

    Put another way, do you want to get in elevator for which the manufacturer assumes no risk or liability? Or an airplane?

    1. Re:Legally responsible Entity by maliqua · · Score: 1

      No but I'd risk it on a tractor that stays on the ground moves relatively slowly, and has emergency manual over rides or kill switches

  24. The same with cars these days by Bender+Unit+22 · · Score: 1

    I still can replace the brakepads and discs. Change the oil and things like that. But that's about it. Currently I have a problem with the alarm going at random moments if I lock it. And it is impossible to do a proper debugging. I finally found a unofficial source to get the repair manual so I can look at it but I will have by trial and error, bypassing one censor at the time.

    When all the electronics starts to break down I fear it will be expensive in man hours.

    1. Re:The same with cars these days by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      I still can replace the brakepads and discs. Change the oil and things like that. But that's about it. Currently I have a problem with the alarm going at random moments if I lock it. And it is impossible to do a proper debugging. I finally found a unofficial source to get the repair manual so I can look at it but I will have by trial and error, bypassing one censor at the time.

      When all the electronics starts to break down I fear it will be expensive in man hours.

      Roger that, but even simple pull and replace jobs can get complicated. MB, for a few model years, had an SBS system that would activate the brakes if the door was opened; which was fine normally but a bit of a problem if you had the brake pads out. BMW requires reseting the computer when a new battery is installed to avoid overcharging it; they only overcharging that occurs when it is rest is the $100 the dealer charges to plug in their computer and rest the control module. Even then, the dealer is paying beaucoup bucks for the test equipment and technician time so $100 really isn't unreasonable except that BMW could have programmed in a rest sequence for the car like they do for oil changes so a dealer trip isn't necessary except to but the battery. Surprisingly, a dealer battery is not much more expensive than an aftermarket one and has the proper vent setup.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
  25. 1948 Ford 8n by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My 1948 Ford 8n tractor is still running like new. The design is ingeniously simple and meant to be repaired or rebuilt as needed by almost anyone.

    As much as I love technology, I sometimes think it will be our Achilles heel.

    1. Re:1948 Ford 8n by mlts · · Score: 1

      "Luddite technology" may just be something that might be salable.

      We have come to a point where modern items are more reliable... but when they break, there is no repairing, there is only replacement. This started back in the 1980s with consumer electronics. However, the trade-off was in the past, an item would be more reliable than one that needed constant work... but now, where an older appliance or vehicle would need a part replaced, a newer model just has to be replaced. Great for business, extremely hard on farms and consumers.

      I wonder how long it will be before a black market starts opening up where people start making 40s-60s era tractors and other farm equipment and selling it. Since there was no registration at that time, and with parts being replaced, there is no way to tell that a tractor was truly from the 40s, except everything has been replaced (similar to the "100 year old axe" which has had the handle replaced numerous times, and the axe head replaced just as often) from something that was fabbed together in a machine shop. For a small farm, an "old" tractor that was "restored" might be the ideal, as it would require more maintenance than a modern tractor... but parts would be available, and 10-100 years from now, parts would still be around.

      Couple the want for vintage machinery that "just worked" with 3D printing shops and metal shops, and it wouldn't be surprising to see "1940s-era" tractors selling left and right, all mechanical, with all parts being available either directly, or as files for a CNC mill. Mitsubishi has a 3D printer/CNC mill that does both additive (3D printing) and subtractive (multi axis cutting.) One of those with a high grade Iconel can do almost anything, and the metal used is at least as good, if not better than anything up to the 1970s, so a 1940s-era design would work well.

      Between regulation, manufacture lockdown, and the invasion of privacy happening now, as well as when the deluge hits with IoT, a company using 3D printing technology and basic metal shop work could do a booming business by making relatively vintage appliances, since other than being made cheaply, not much has changed with most dishwashers between the 1950s and now (for example.)

    2. Re:1948 Ford 8n by IonOtter · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I've had the same experience with a 1954 Massey-Ferguson. I've never worked on a farm tractor in my life, only small engines and cars. Yet I could tell it was designed to be disassembled in the field.

      All the panels were held on securely, but with a minimum of screws. 10 screws, and I had the entire engine cowling and side panels removed. The front debris screen was actually hinged by the cowling! The radiator was held on with two massive bolts, making it a cinch to remove, all right in the middle of the lawn.

      Repair and reassembly was just as simple, and easily accomplished by just myself. I went from dead-in-the-field to full operation in about 2 hours, with nothing more than 1/2, 9/16 and 3/4 sockets and a flat-head screwdriver.

      And again, I'd never worked on a farm tractor in my life. It was just that simple and intuitive.

      --
      [End Of Line]
  26. Re:The best argument for Open Source is closed sou by unixisc · · Score: 1

    Maybe the Department of Agriculture could require that all software used in farm equipment be completely GPLed

  27. I don't understand the problem by Daetrin · · Score: 2

    Slashdot was telling me just a couple months ago that "farming has been stuck in a bit of a rut" and "farming has been using techniques that have been handed down from centuries ago". Since Slashdot is never wrong, clearly farmers don't use high-tech equipment. So how can they be struggling to repair it?

    --
    This Space Intentionally Left Blank
  28. Farmer/IT person here by caseih · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I spent nearly 15 years in IT before returning to the family farm to work with my brothers. We farm several thousand acres of irrigated land with some large, expensive machines, so I have some experience in this. This article really hits home for me. Forgive some of the jargon, but this is slashdot; you can deal with it.

    Coming from the open source world, computer technology in farming, both in the machines themselves, and the software farmers use, is like stepping back in time 20 years or more. Farm software is a niche market, and companies are pretty jealous of their profits. So mapping software is very expensive and interoperability is a bit difficult. Right now I can pull maps off my machines (Case, John Deere), but they each use different native formats so if I want to do any work in QGIS I have to use the company's individual software (which ironically enough is DRMd even though it comes for free with the machine) to export the data in SHAPE format. Software packages like the SMS mapper can read some manufacturers' data files directly because they licensed the formats. But there's very little info out there on hacking these formats and very few open source hackers know enough about farming and these systems to bring expertise to bear.

    Even worse, all the companies are talking about cloud-based mapping solutions, but that's even more proprietary and closed.

    Companies talk about "open standards" but what they really mean is they export SHAPE files from a computer program. It's really frustrating, but with interest in UAVs, perhaps people will finally crack this barrier.

    As to the machines themselves, there are a number of issues. One is government regulations. Adjusting the timing as the farmer in the article wanted to do is extremely illegal and can get you a huge fine from the EPA if you are caught, which you will be. Because unlike in the automotive world, there aren't a any third-party repair shops with access to the parts, let alone diagnostic equipment. Apparently the EPA requires the manufacturer to report any deviations from the the approved program, and they levy fines. Sounds orwellian, but the EPA doesn't mess around when it comes to pollution regs (and I'm okay with that in theory). Suppose the manufacturers want to cover themselves.

    Someone asked why a company can't spring up to develop hackable machines? There are efforts to this effect.

    http://opensourceecology.org/

    But for larger scale farming, it's harder. In the case of engines, the EPA would simply never allow them to market if the parameters that cause an engine to meet EPA regs are allowed to be changed. Regulatory capture has made modern diesels so expensive to develop now, including licensing patented pollution control technologies like the urea injection systems, that it's cheaper for companies to buy an existing engine than to develop their own. So even if I started a hackable tractor company I'd still need to use an engine with an extremely proprietary ECU, and would have to license canbus info to simply connect a transmission to the engine.

    The other part of machines that is jealously guarded is the main canbus that links everything on the tractor. We're talking engine control, transmission control, hydraulic remotes, cab systems, and most importantly, the GPS receiver, guidance computer, and steering valve. The commands that flow on this bus are not yet encrypted (they will be soon, starting in cars I predict), but they are highly proprietary and protected by NDAs. You'd think that with a modern tractor I could take anyone's GPS receiver, mate it with anyone's guidance computer, and control any tractor's steering. Well it's not like that. On John Deere, for example, if I want to use anything other than GreenStar for GPS and guidance (a $10-$20k touch by the way, plus yearly fees for RTK), I have to physically replace the steering valve system with one that the 3rd party system is compatible with. There was a company that rev

    1. Re: Farmer/IT person here by SETY · · Score: 1

      Mod this guy up. He actually farms and these are all the problems dealt with on a daily basis. The gps/auto steer stuff is the most closed.

    2. Re:Farmer/IT person here by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      As I pointed about above, the marine electronics people put together the NMEA spec just to allow various systems to talk to each other. I'm a bit surprised that that hasn't happened in the farming community - especially with data formats, but perhaps combines are typically just bought and used rather than modded up like most boats. (Most recreational and smaller commercial boats are sold bereft of electronics, it's up to the end user to customize the boat depending on taste and requirements.)

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    3. Re:Farmer/IT person here by caseih · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Interoperability is increasing, but it's not being done in an open way in my opinion. Rather it's being done with cross-licensing of protocols, file formats, etc. Each major machinery company wants to get people into their ecosystem, their cloud. And for GPS each company wants to lock me into a subscription to their service, which I can't easily switch without changing out all the hardware. If you think proprietary software subscriptions are bad (office 365, etc), it's worse here!

      There are some standards including ISO 11783 (known as IsoBus) that standardize the way implements talk to the tractor, to the mapping system, and to the variable rate systems (GPS is involved, but not in a guidance fashion). Though in practice, interoperability is somewhat hit and miss. The other day I plugged my air seeder cart (New Holland) into my John Deere tractor's isobus (we've been using a NH computer monitor added to our other John Deere tractor as an external display), but the Deere computer could only see one of the two devices the cart puts on the bus. Some kind of incompatibility. Pretty sure NH sells a little converter box to tweak the baud rate or something to make it work with Deere's monitor. So it's a bit of a crap shoot.

      A couple of years ago I thought it would be nice to interface a device like a raspberry pi with isobus. There's a GPL library for implementing ISOBUS protocol on Linux. But accessing the ISO documents themselves cost a fair amount of money. Just trying to break into this world to get information seems very difficult. I'm still unsure of the exact nature of the electrical interface. It's a proprietary connector, and I think the signalling is j1939. It's hard to find out without buying expensive SDKs and such. Very frustrating.

    4. Re:Farmer/IT person here by caseih · · Score: 3, Informative

      Just to be clear, and responding to the NMEA comment, when it comes to mapping and field prescriptions, all the major systems will accept GPS from just about any receiver via a serial connection (NMEA or some other). It's the guidance part of the computer that is locked to vendor-specific receivers. There's no reason at all for this vendor lock except to guarantee you will be paying a subscription for correction signals from the vendor. In my mind this area is ripe for disruption. The sooner we can get cheap RTK GPS positioning the better. And even if it means replacing the hydraulic steering valve, if there's an open. hackable GPS guidance system out there, I and many farmers will move to it.

      One guy using a laptop and arduino made his own GPS guidance system. Very cool stuff:
      http://forum.arduino.cc/index....

      So it's still possible to do incredibly cool hacks.

      That said, the proprietary solutions do work very well and are well-integrated

    5. Re:Farmer/IT person here by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Coming from the open source world, computer technology in farming, both in the machines themselves, and the software farmers use, is like stepping back in time 20 years or more.

      Coming from the open source world, I think you'll find that computer technology in ANY sector of the economy other than software development is like stepping back in time 20 years or more.

      When you go into the hospital, do you think that the blood analyzer that tests your samples is open source or owner-serviceable? How about the copy machine at the office? How about the machines used to manufacture paper, or toys, or car parts? How about the robots that make cars? How about the software that operates the petroleum refinery?

      I think that farming has just become like every other industry in these regards.

    6. Re:Farmer/IT person here by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      This sort of comment is why I still come to Slashdot.

      Might be the best, most informative one I've seen all week.

    7. Re:Farmer/IT person here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have no idea if it will open anything up but interestingly enough the newest generation Deere displays are running Linux.

  29. Not just farmers by gatkinso · · Score: 1

    Soldiers, park rangers... anyone that works in the/a field.

    --
    I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
  30. Re:So, start a company making easy-to-fix equipmen by jythie · · Score: 1

    Mega commercial farms have cozier relationships with manufacturers and are both less likely to see this stuff as a problem and more likely to have dedicated (internal or vendor supplied) people working with them. And since the big farms make up the bulk of the market, the smaller ones and their problems are not going to have much impact on what types of devices get built.

  31. DRM run amok by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Really!! now this is just plain stupid. and now part of planned obsolesce ... Time to make open source tractors

  32. Buy czech ZETOR tractors. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Bullet-proof and idiot-proof. Not mentioning granted basic repair abilities, unlike John Deere's "highly-proprietary-whatever."

  33. Computers are black boxes by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

    There are some places where they just don't belong. The regulations everybody complains about are industry written to protect their business from interlopers, so don't go blaming the politicians you've reelected for the fifth time.

    --
    “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
  34. Re:So, start a company making easy-to-fix equipmen by mysidia · · Score: 2

    Unfortunately, when operators misuse equipment through poor judgment, the courts side with the operator, so the manufacturer is forced to remove functionality from all users because one user is unable to exercise the commons sense required to operate the machinery.

    Instead of removing features.... why don't we require that operators receive proper training?

    So they have to sign off and pass a test on among other things a safety course. And the manufacturer can maintain the documentation that the operator knows specific safety requirements.

    Phase II is issue all successful trainees an "operator card" and equip all farm vehicles with an "operator card slot" and a biometric sensor.

    To start the machine, you have to have the right SmartCard signed by the manufacturer containing your credentials and fingerprints, and the biometric sensor has to scan you and verify it matches the ID on the card.

    Then if you stand up or leave the seat, you will have to reauthenticate.

  35. Dangerous Equipment SHOULD be hard to screw up... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So, while I normally agree with the idea that there's just a wee bit too-little personal responsibility today, I have to take exception to

    Nothing is easy to maintain anymore because society no longer wants individuals to take responsibility for their own poor judgment.

    Heavy machinery that is hard to misuse is a GOOD THING. Yes, there are a lot of idiots out there who make poor choices and it's hard to sympathize with the dummy who put a brick on the gas and get out of the cab, or whatever, but it also protects people against that One Stupid Thing.

    You know you've done it. That One Stupid Thing that you would NEVER have done, should NEVER have done, and after you do it, assuming you survive, you can't believe you were STUPID enough to do.

    We've all had that moment. Every one of us. If you say you never had a bad moment, NEVER done something that, in hindsight, was incredibly dangerous and stupid, you're a damn liar, and probably do it a lot more than you realize since you're lying to yourself as well.

    Whether it was due to fatigue because something kept waking you up at night, or being sicker than you realized, or being pissed off at something that JUST happened, we've ALL had our "Holy CRAP, what the hell did I just do?!" moment, and if we're very lucky it, doesn't hurt, maim, or kill us.

    I'm not saying I'm in favor of those damn lawsuits, just that if the protections are in place due to fear of being sued by an injured idiot, well, I'm glad a big company's scared then, if it makes them do the right thing. Even if 80 or 90% of those User Error events you are so irritated by are due to, well, idiots, having robust safety systems in place to keep people from hurting themselves and being maimed or killed, really is a Good Thing.

  36. Old MacDonald Had a Farm, 1-0-1-0-1 by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

    The problem isn't the tech, but the DRM. Today's sensors could make life a lot easier for the DIY repairman, by providing early warning of impending failures and detailed information about what has gone wrong. But no - once again, it serves the need of the corporation to make everything proprietary.

    Linux for Tractors, anyone?

    1. Re:Old MacDonald Had a Farm, 1-0-1-0-1 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You'd be surprised at how much Linux is used in agriculture. Nearly all the terminals are.

  37. Ownership by kilfarsnar · · Score: 3

    Remember way back when if you bought something you owned it and could do with it what you pleased? Good times...

    --
    "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
    1. Re:Ownership by sudon't · · Score: 1

      People still seem to think they own the equipment, devices, or media they pay for. In time, they will learn...

      --
      -- sudon't

      Air-ride Equipped

  38. The solution ... by PPH · · Score: 2

    ... is to do what the aviation industry has moved to. Jet engines are high maintenance, high capital cost pieces of equipment upon which serious revenude depends. So the engine manufacturers offer what is essentially a performance guarantee for a fixed fee. If it breaks, they come out and fix it or replace it. Out of their pocket and within a contracted time. The cost to the operator is somewhat higher, but the risk is reduced. As a result, many engines are equipped with ACARS to report impending problems to the factory maintenance department while still in flight. So they can meet the plane at its destination with repair parts.

    So, do the same for farm equipment. Your John Deere harvester breaks down. You have a contract with John Deere to either get it fixed within a defined time frame or they bring out a loaner. Maintenance is no longer your problem.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  39. thanks for comment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That was interesting justifying this particular wander into /. comments.

  40. tractors look like jet cockpits by peter303 · · Score: 1

    I've seen them at Denver Stockshow. They are full of GPS maps, computer screens, video feeds etc. Cost as much as a small plane too.

    1. Re:tractors look like jet cockpits by rHBa · · Score: 1

      In Top Gear S09E05 they had a tractor challenge. In the first test each presenter had to start their chosen tractor, hook up a four-wheel trailer and reverse out of the studio's car park. James May was barely able to start his tractor, let alone complete the rest of the test!

    2. Re:tractors look like jet cockpits by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      I've seen them at Denver Stockshow. They are full of GPS maps, computer screens, video feeds etc. Cost as much as a small plane too.

      I suspect that "jet cockpit" is probably a better description than "small plane" cockpit though. The latter tend look a lot like tractors from the 70s, unless it is one of the few made in the last decade. Heck, I'm not sure if modern piston general aviation aircraft are even using FADEC across the board.

  41. Re:So, start a company making easy-to-fix equipmen by jedidiah · · Score: 4, Insightful

    > They would go broke. The reason all of the sensors are there is because when they didn't have sensors, and some farmer misused they tool and got hurt, they sued the manufacturer

    Quit being such a corporate tool.

    The tort aspect of this is likely completely irrelevant since these are likely highly self reliant types used to fending for themselves for various reasons. Even in the city, this excuse "but we will get sued" is usually just bullshit. Lazy people are just trying to take advantage of the pervasive anti-lawyer propaganda.

    Quit swimming in the kool-aid.

    --
    A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
  42. http://opensourceecology.org/gvcs/ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://opensourceecology.org/gvcs/

    The Global Village Construction Set (GVCS) is a modular, DIY, low-cost, high-performance platform that allows for the easy fabrication of the 50 different Industrial Machines that it takes to build a small, sustainable civilization with modern comforts. We’re developing open source industrial machines that can be made at a fraction of commercial costs, and sharing our designs online for free.

  43. I don't see the big deal by CosaNostra+Pizza+Inc · · Score: 1

    The same has been true of cars and trucks for more than a decade now. People can't as easily be Saturday morning mechanics, anymore. If something is wrong with your vehicle, you bring it to a technician who can read from your diagnostics port to isolate what the problem is.

  44. Re:So, start a company making easy-to-fix equipmen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I live in rural Alberta and the market is their the number of farmers shunning the big american brands in favour of cheaper simpler Chinese tractors is growing we have 4 dealers for those Chinese tractors within 15 minutes of me and the nearest Deere dealer is almost an hour.

    The only big brand i see are the exceptionally large combines and other big speciality type machines.

  45. Re:So, start a company making easy-to-fix equipmen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Those seat snesors are easy enough to fool. We used to keep a rock in the cab with us in case we needed to go to the restroom during a long haul. Throw the rock in the seat and you're free to hop up and step out of the cab to go pee while the whole thing is moving. Just be sure to hold on, 8mph doesn't sound like much, but it's plenty fast to kill you when half a million pounds of dirt and steel come rolling over you if you fall.

    Gosh I miss that job. For a while there, just using the bathroom inside felt strange to me.

  46. Re:Dangerous Equipment SHOULD be hard to screw up. by tompaulco · · Score: 1

    You're probably right, but I get annoyed on some of the safety crap. Like on my lawn tractor, the seat contacts are a little worn and if I lean forward or bounce on a rock while the blades are engaged, the mower will start to die. Similar issue with trying to start the mower. It won't start with the blades engaged (which makes sense), but the sensor is worn, and now in order to start the tractor, I have to haul back on the blade engage lever. I used to be able to get off the mower as long as the blades were not engaged, but due to the worn sensor, it now thinks they are engaged when they are not, so I can't get off the mower. Backing up is the same issue. It won't let you back up with the blades engaged, even if they are not engaged, but it thinks they are.
    Quote at the bottom of the page "A memorandum is written not to inform the reader, but to protect the writer. -- Dean Acheson". How appropriate.

    --
    If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
  47. Re:So, start a company making easy-to-fix equipmen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    because society no longer wants individuals to take responsibility for their own poor judgment.

    Um... you are glossing over the minor fact that these INDIVIDUALS are the ones that file a court case in the first place. The legal system doesn't roam the country looking for injustices to fix. Society doesn't either.

    The first opportunity to take responsibility for a screwup is the INDIVIDUAL who fails twice - first their mistake and second going to society to address that. If these people believed their own philosophy of independence, rugged individualism and responsibility, they would just silently deal with the consequences of their errors and not sue in the first place.

  48. You don't replace or bypass the sensor. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You simulate it. Most sensors in modern ECU's are "dumb" and just produce a voltage, resistance or ampere. You have to simulate a acceptable value to the ECU to get it to function even without the sensor. (I have done this on two occasions, Arduino is your friend!)

  49. Re:So, start a company making easy-to-fix equipmen by Princeofcups · · Score: 1

    > They would go broke. The reason all of the sensors are there is because when they didn't have sensors, and some farmer misused they tool and got hurt, they sued the manufacturer

    Quit being such a corporate tool.

    The tort aspect of this is likely completely irrelevant since these are likely highly self reliant types used to fending for themselves for various reasons. Even in the city, this excuse "but we will get sued" is usually just bullshit. Lazy people are just trying to take advantage of the pervasive anti-lawyer propaganda.

    Quit swimming in the kool-aid.

    In these cases, the plaintiff rarely starts the case. Instead, some lawyer reads the news in the paper and jumps at the opportunity to rake in some cash, as long as they can convince the plaintiff that it's in their best interest.

    --
    The only thing worse than a Democrat is a Republican.
  50. Re:So, start a company making easy-to-fix equipmen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We have a winner! Mom-and-pop farms don't matter anymore. They lost. The market caters to the mega-agri-business. Whatever family farms still operate do so on the fringes, usually one bad year away from being forced to sell. For all the noises that people make about supporting local farms, they don't really (and honestly can't) give a shit in a meaningful way about who grows their food. As long as it is cheap and they only have to interact with it at the grocery store, people will be happy and content.

    You eat factory food. You will always eat factory food. Unless there is some monumental sea-change (on the scale of the homestead act) this will forever-more be the case.

  51. Re:So, start a company making easy-to-fix equipmen by Herkum01 · · Score: 1

    Well those self-reliant types can buy a tractor that they can maintain themselves, they just don't get the latest and greatest with it.

    No one is requiring them to buy a new John Deere tractor, it just ends up being easier to do so.

  52. Re:So, start a company making easy-to-fix equipmen by DerekLyons · · Score: 2

    They would go broke. The reason all of the sensors are there is because when they didn't have sensors, and some farmer misused they tool and got hurt, they sued the manufacturer

    Quit being such a corporate tool.

    The tort aspect of this is likely completely irrelevant since these are likely highly self reliant types used to fending for themselves for various reasons.

    You've been reading waaay to much fiction, or you're a "tool" of romantic idealists. The vast majority of modern farmers (I.E. those able to afford farm equipment running into six figures) are businessmen, not self reliant loners. (Among other things, that means they have insurance, and insurance companies willing to sue of their behalf.)

  53. Older equipment seen by Virtucon · · Score: 1

    This is why you see older equipment on farms. First because some of the new high tech gear is too complex and most importantly it's really, really expensive. There are still farmers (granted less than 1000 acres) that are still farming with equipment made in the 40s and 50s.

    --
    Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
  54. "Machinery eventually breaks down" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Second hand experience with a friend who drives a swather (it's the thing that cuts hay) and occasionally a disc harrow (which breaks large dirt clumps into smaller dirt clumps):

    It's a rare day that goes by without some improvised fix. At least once a week the machinery breaks badly enough that you can't finish the current field.

    Also, this is a $150,000 machine. Also this is a 120 lb lady fixing things with duck tape, WD-40 and kicking shit until it works in the field. Right after crying about running over Bambi (fawns remain motionless and hidden as big scary farm equipment draws near).

  55. Re:So, start a company making easy-to-fix equipmen by Rich0 · · Score: 1

    Unfortunately, when operators misuse equipment through poor judgment, the courts side with the operator, so the manufacturer is forced to remove functionality from all users because one user is unable to exercise the commons sense required to operate the machinery.

    Instead of removing features.... why don't we require that operators receive proper training?

    The solution is neither black boxes nor unsafe devices.

    Go ahead and have automation and sensors. Just require that manufacturers publish all the specifications and service manuals for the stuff they sell. The machine can still shut off when it detects an unsafe condition, but now the owner can decide whether they want to replace the $5 sensor themselves vs having somebody fly out and fix it for them.

    I want to be able to fix my own car within reason. That doesn't mean that I don't want my car to sound an alarm when my brakes are in danger of failing and prevent my kid who doesn't know any better from starting the car (hey, dad, I noticed at the store that my tire is flat. didn't the TPMS light turn on? oh, that light on the dashboard I ignored? yeah, the one that forces me to drive out and fix your tire in the middle of a parking lot instead of right next to my garage with all my tools.).

  56. HUGE Aftermarket opportunity here: by jageryager · · Score: 1

    I know for a fact that certain makes/models of aging tractors have very low or even non-existent aftermarket resale value because they are too hard/confusing to troubleshoot and ECUs/electronics/wiring parts are way too expensive. A clever mechanic/electronics person could make a lot of dough 'breaking the code' on these control systems, buying these tractors cheap, rebuilding the electronics and selling for 10's of thousands each.

    --
    "They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"-B.Franklin
  57. Like everything, it's a tradeoff. by argStyopa · · Score: 1

    I'd be willing to bet lots of money that farmers still have the option of buying older models with simpler, less fuel-efficient engines, less capabilities, etc.

    You can have:
    a) super high tech, comfortable, efficient, efficacious equipment, at the price of being a hostage to your vendor
    b) old tech, uncomfortable, noisy, manually-controlled equipment that you can mess with all day long.

    You get a OR b.

    --
    -Styopa
  58. Misleading, farmers are not dumb hicks by avandesande · · Score: 1

    I have two uncles who are farmers- both earned agricultural degrees at Cornell and both of them were one of the first business people I knew that incorporated computers in their livelihood. They cows wore radio tags and had automated systems to control how much the cows were fed and tracked milk production in addition to a variety of other things that are a part of farming. This was in the 80's.
    It is hard for me to imagine there are many successful farmers left that aren't technologically savvy.

    --
    love is just extroverted narcissism
  59. regulations by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Having some of this old technology myself, and being exposed to automotive technology on a regular basis in my professional life, I think that corporations should be required by law to freely licesne any diagnostic, control, programming, monitoring, or other software for automotive or industrial equipment to the owners of said equipment. You may have to buy (or make) a set of adapter cables, however the software to be able to diagnose, troubleshoot, and repair your own equipment should be the right of the owner and operator and not locked up by some propriatory software requiring dealer repairs, or very expensive dealer software.

  60. Everyone Struggling with ECU's FTFY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Disclaimer: I sell and replace and update engine computers.
    Cars manufactured before 1996 used proprietary incompatible physical connectors. They used proprietary communication techniques after that, OEM specific codes and different implementations of all of this.
    The EPA mandated emissions controls and Unified the OBD2 connector and interface. A lawsuit opened it to the aftermarket. The process is proprietary, usually requires java and internet explorer 9. AMD processors are not supported by some OEMs.
    Diagnosing and tracing a misfire or no start condition can still be a nightmare as often times the last branch of the diagnostic tree is An ECM replacement.
    Even with the tools, the subscriptions, the software updates i still have ZERO control over the Contents of the ECM program. I could MIM Hack the software and reverse engineer it but that may even be DVD john territory and would leave me open to liability.
    It would be much easier to find said sensor and create a dummy sensor or map it and reproduce its signal with a microcontroller or raspberry pi.

  61. I work in the automotive aftermarket. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    We got together with the mechanics organizations and got the freedom to repair act passed. Now we can not bypass emissions legally. But we do have the information for scan tools to find the defect and replace the defective part, including calibration routines as needed. We can reverse engineer replacement parts and have them legal to sell.

    Farmers and independent service as well as the folks that supply parts need to band together, make some campaign contributions and get this law extended to the aftermarket. while some companies still fight it, many have learned it is good business to have a market for older machines that the OEM no longer finds sufficient profit in supplying parts.

    Rod

  62. Re:Obviously there is only one solution: More H-1b by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... more immigration.

    More people means more roads, more dams and chemical-free tracts of land, and lastly, more industrial/commercial waste. This is part of the 'broken window' fallacy, that more consumption is a cure-all. Raising the GNP is easy: Slavery, or if one dislikes that idea, sweat shops. These solutions increase production, not consumption. Unfortunately, increasing consumption is a distant and very unreliable third choice. As population increases, productivity decreases. The economies of scale gained by volume and standardization are gradually lost as more and more people don't fit into a culturally defined, standard lifestyle. This is magnified when a dissimilar culture is suddenly planted inside another. With the side effect that the benefits of multiculturalism don't appear for 20 or 30 years.

  63. Best Solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Buy Russian tractors.