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Wayland 1.7.0 Marks an Important Release
jones_supa writes: The 1.7.0 release of Wayland is now available for download. The project thanks all who have contributed, and especially the desktop environments and client applications that now converse using Wayland. In an official announcement from Bryce Harrington of Samsung, he says the Wayland protocol may be considered 'done' but that doesn't mean there's not work to be done. A bigger importance is now given to testing, documentation, and bugfixing. As Wayland is maturing, we are also getting closer to the point where the big Linux distros will eventually start integrating it to their operating system.
Nope. Everyone jumped ship for BSD when systemd came along.
I keep hearing about Wayland release this, and Wayland release that. That's all great - keep releasing new versions, that's progress. But I want to know, when can I install a GNU/Linux distro and start using Wayland. I know, it's next year, but we'll said that for a couple of years now and I'm running out of patience.
That's the right way to do it. They use pelican, xmlto with some customized XSLT and graphviz for maintainable high-level diagrams.
Pretty cool. So far I have only used sphinx (and doxygen before), but these days there are a lot of great documentation options out there.
NB: The message above might reflect my opinion right now, but not necessarily tomorrow or next year.
You can already run GNOME on Wayland on Fedora 21. I don't know when they will switch to it by default, but last time I heard anything about it the target was at Fedora 22.
Not saying that this is a problem for me....
After it was announced a year or two ago, I have heard nothing about RDP support in Wayland. Is it getting to the point that Wayland will have first-class support for transparently remoting apps with RDP? Anyone know the status on this? There's precious little info about this on the interwebs, and no real information on what the workflow looks like, say with ssh forwarding.
Fedora 22 (due in three months) target is to have login screen on Wayland. Fedora 23 (October?) should have fully working GNOME session on Wayland.
:wq
Anyway to try it on hardware without using vm?
As Wayland is maturing, we are also getting closer to the point where the big Linux distros will eventually start integrating it to their operating system.
Will I grow old and die before this event?
They're targeting GNU HURD as their primary platform.
It's supposed to be used to play the next Duke Nukem release.
but neither tested nor documented yet. So, what do we have then? Shipped 1.7.0 because it compiled?
That used to be a joke. Now Xorg is one, but a very different kind of joke.
Tried running Wayland on Fedora 21. It did not work at all. Hoping it does with Fedora 22.
From my poorly-informed vantage point, it seems like all the things that truly sucked about X Window are still there in Wayland.
Is there any good reason to use Wayland rather than X Window?
Compared to X11, RDP isn't good for seamless graphical element integration into the local environment (though integration of audio makes it better on another front, and performance wise RDP runs circles around X11).
All that said, I'm not one to be down on Wayland. Xpra demonstrates how a linux graphical environment is best remoted, and it doesn't really use the X protocol at all for the business end of things. It interjects as a compositor and window manager, with a dummy X server to satisfy the demands of X clients. The compositor gets the graphical data, sound comes along, and intercepting window manager hints lets it do other things like correctly place 'tray' icons. In other words the X protocol is at this point thoroughly superseded for it's big strength. I don't know if Wayland has something like Xpra yet, but I have hope.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
RDP seems to me to be a really poor alternative to having a "remote widget set". Why would you send bitmaps over the line when the only thing that matters is the rendering and state of standardized widgets?
Fact is that RDP is rather braindead. Yes, it is used a lot and certainly a lot more than saner alternatives. But is that really the criteria? Whatever gets used is the best even if it's retarded?
<rant>
For those of us who have not heard of Wayland, the following is how the summary reads:
The x.y.z release of Some Software is now available for download. The project thanks all who have contributed, and especially the desktop environments and client applications that now converse using Some Software. In an official announcement from Some Author of Some Company, he says the Some Software protocol may be considered 'done' but that doesn't mean there's not work to be done. A bigger importance is now given to testing, documentation, and bugfixing. As Some Software is maturing, we are also getting closer to the point where the big Linux distros will eventually start integrating it to their operating system.
So what does Some Software actually do and why should I be interested? I know that I can Google Some Software, but is it really that hard to start with the summary with the following:
The x.y.z release of Somesoftware, a package which does blah blah blah, is now available for download. ...
After all, phrases such as "As Wayland is maturing", imply that this is a relatively new piece of software still under development of which everyone is not familiar, especially for those of us using BSDs, Solaris, and Slackware.
</rant>
More importantly can I open a window on the NCAR servers in Wyoming or the LNL servers in California run programs on the servers at NCAR/LNL while displaying the results on my Linux box in New York. Oh it doesn't does it (Wayland does not currently provide network transparency, but it may in the future.It was attempted as a Google Summer of Code project in 2011, but was not successful.) I guess I will have to wait until somebody invents an architecture-independent system for remote graphical user interfaces and input device capabilities, where each person using a networked system has the ability to interact with the display with any type of user input device.
GNOME? does anyone even run that shit after the GNOME team ruined it?
Quite a lot of people use GNOME. The 3.0-3.6 versions were a bit shaky, but starting with 3.8 I would say that it's been quite good again.
Ah yes, login screen in F22 and default in F23. Thanks!
The pro-systemd people are insane and have destroyed Linux forever,
Remember the topic of this article. Can't we save some of the credit for destroying Linux for Wayland?
So it doesn't even compile, nor is it documented.
Great way to attain progress: Just declare success, done. No compiling required, so all that's done is just ship the thing.
I really don't know anyone that uses it. Mate, Cinnamin, KDE, xfce4....but no GNOME users.
I've Debian 8 testing with default desktop in a vm....GNOME still awful for me. Won't even talk about systemD troubleshooting which was the purpose of making that vm
Among the problems with RDP are:
From the wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remote_Desktop_Protocol) "Remote Desktop Protocol (RDP) is a proprietary protocol developed by Microsoft, which provides a user with a graphical interface to connect to another computer over a network connection. "
As a Linux user why would I want to use a proprietary protocol when there are plenty of Free(dom) ones to choose from? What's the advantage for me? I don't use Windows products so why should I bother caring about this?
On the other hand, XWindows has been seen around 1987 and the only real problem I've had with it is displaying back OpenGL content. Maybe Wayland will be even better. I'll just wait and see how Debian implements it for me.
And again the systemd guys moderate people down that post about systemd problems. Linus was right to criticize them for ignoring bug reports.
So a) they got to v1.7.0 of an implementation before they finished the initial protocol they were implementing, and b) they are NOW increasing their work on documentation and testing.
This is why actual engineers, including software engineers, either laugh or cry over these programmers who think they should be treated with respect.
Only the bits of X they consider important.
It was planned as more an alternative MS style window system for *nix boxes than a "replacement" for X, but has adopted more X style features (eg. choice of window management instead of one style fits all) as the project has progressed.
It's the differences that have people arguing and putting people down for wanting to run applications from 2013, 2005 or (shock horror!) commercial *nix software that still has bits from 1999. If you are not willing to have all new applications for an all new environment then Wayland is not for you because it is an alternative desktop for new stuff and not designed to do what the old one could do and run old applications.
I hit /. daily, fark daily, run Linux daily. I've heard of Wayland, but have no idea what it is. So, um, WTF is Wayland and why should I care? Summary, help me out?
You should watch this. The drivers behind this are not just gamers and idiot home users.
SIGDANGER is my middle name
I don't know what a compositor does - can someone give a link to an explanation how all this stuff fits together please, preferably one with diagrams?
As someone who would like to use Linux exclusively and would like to promote it more, I'm annoyed and embarrassed that I can't get decent Linux remote desktop over my GB LAN: You want video? What year do you think this is, 2015?
Whereas Microsoft RDP works very well indeed.
I use gnome on one PC because I want to know for sure when I post how bad it sucks that I'm right. Fedora 20 for the record; and Gnome 3 manages to crash on me multiple times an hour some days doing nothing exciting (and with 16GB of RAM).
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
From TFA:
>Wayland's developer documentation is comprised of three different pieces.
Where's that guy from Wikipedia to fix their grammar?
I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
No, remoting should not be done at the toolkit level, for that means you now depend on N toolkits to all implement remoting correctly, lest you end up with some (or all) programs not supporting remoting at all just because the toolkit dev didn't feel like reinventing the wheel, badly, because the wayland "architecture" was done by a bunch of doofuses (as it is).
Remoting needs to be support right at the start, the lowest available protocol levels, exactly so that all programs support remoting seamlessly in an uniform way. If you then want to add remoting support on toolkit or higher levels to support more efficient remoting, that's cool, that's fine, go for it. But don't go and claim all remoting "belong" at the toolkit level, because that just causes needless, senseless breakage (that we know so well from the various wayland/Xorg/freedesktop/poettering deliberate doofus crews).
Blocking remoting from working in some programs just so it might work somewhat better in others using blessed toolkits is just stupid. Make it work seamlessly at all for all programs first, make sure it can also work efficiently second, is the better approach.
Watching that is just as likely to drive people away, as the attitude of the presenter is up there with the one displayed by the systemd maintainers...
comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
Remote Desktop Protocol (RDP) is a proprietary protocol developed by Microsoft
Citrix created it.
As a Linux user why would I want to use a proprietary protocol when there are plenty of Free(dom) ones to choose from? What's the advantage for me? I don't use Windows products so why should I bother caring about this?
RDP is usable over dialup and often indistinguishable from sitting at console over broadband. No free offering even comes close to the performance or quality of RDP.
On the other hand, XWindows has been seen around 1987
Xwindows is a dead end.
Have you tried Fedora 21? Fedora 20 worked fine for me, but it's an extremely old release at this point.
You should watch this. The drivers behind this are not just gamers and idiot home users.
Replacing X11 is of little advantage to gamers, because game performance is almost entirely determined by OpenGL, and the drawing operations bypass any X protocols. (gl)X is only needed for purposes like creating a - usually fullscreen - window and GL context, swapping buffers at the end of each frame, and handling keyboard and mose input. Saving a few microseconds on those does not make a noteworthy difference. A decent window manager also automatically disables composition, which does have a negative impact on performance, when a fullscreen application like a game is running. In practice, with drivers of reasonable quality (currently available for Nvidia hardware), OpenGL games and demos run as fast or even slightly better than on Windows. Also, Phoronix benchmarks have shown that using Wayland can actually make the performance worse.
Linux ports of games run worse than Windows/Direct3D not because of the alleged "overhead" of X11, but as a result of poor driver and port quality. OpenGL and Linux have very small market share in gaming, so hardware vendors and game developers cannot justify spending much resources on optimizing drivers/software for those.
Some of the other improvements over X11, such as allowing for displays larger than 32768x32768 pixels, are also of limited practical relevance for the forseeable future, other than for some specialized niche applications. Not to mention the limitation could be removed by updating X11. In any case, it took more than a decade for the standard desktop resolution to increase from 640x480 to 1920x1080, and above 10000 pixels the human eye starts to become a limiting factor at a sensible vieving distance/FOV.
.. OpenGL and Linux have very small market share in gaming, so hardware vendors and game developers cannot justify spending much resources on optimizing drivers/software for those.
So true..but it's not just a Linux issue and games developers..
mines is the design room with two CAD/CAM Win7 PCs specifically to run one package with Software house specified graphics cards fitted which still have major (to the point of being almost unusable at times) OpenGL issues..
I did warn them at the time that a test box was required..
(Oh, BTW, Linux OpenGL support on same machines and graphics is fine.)
ssh -X FTW!
Wayland doesn't have this.
Just clean up X or write X12.
Or just keep X11. It's fine.
If all it takes is to make you take it up is to keep going on about it being bad to make systemd the only choice for bootup, you have no willpower at all, do you?
How did you manage not to take up Windows instead, what with all the anti-windows trolls?
If so, why?
Will it run Crysis?
I'm not sure how - note that Daniel Stone (the presenter) appears here http://www.x.org/wiki/BoardOfD... - so he's one of the current folks in charge of dealing with the current xorg code; who better to judge the current state of xorg than someone who works with it every day? Another good presentation on the current state of X and its problems: http://youtu.be/2l7ixRE3OCw
SIGDANGER is my middle name
But wonder if the tricks Bumblebee employ, would work in Wayland.
Says that he resigned back in 2009.
And hmm, Collabora. I keep bumping into that company for some reason...
comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
Screenshots, benchmarks, video reviews? Where's the media coverage?
Personally, I don't give a shit unless it provides native RDP support that works with Microsoft's Remote Desktop app.